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03/2008 H.I. Letter - Ask the Master

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  • prometheus_973
    Klemp denies ECKists God-Realization. They all have to become 12th LEMs first! HK, previously, had said that Spiritual Realization was a stage for the 6th
    Message 1 of 5 , Mar 13, 2008
      Klemp denies ECKists God-Realization. They all
      have to become 12th LEMs first! HK, previously,
      had said that "Spiritual Realization" was a stage
      for the 6th and 7th Initiates. Now, it seems, HK
      has retracted this due to his need for more Vahanas
      (Sales Reps). Thus, all H.I.s (except for one or two)
      are now in a longer and unattainable holding
      pattern for their Goal of God-Realization in this
      Lifetime! This "goal" now becomes another "afterlife"
      promise just like other religions have!

      Remember, too, Twitchell and Gross Did Not have
      the "Co-Worker With the Mahanta" stage or the
      "Spiritual Consciousness" stage for one's Spiritual
      Evolution. It was SELF-REALIZATION and GOD-
      REALIZATION. This was a shorter and more direct
      approach due to the advanced spiritual techniques,
      etc. These additional stages, of HK's, were designed
      to keep long-time members (6ths & 7ths) from leaving
      and for service (sales) purposes. It's a KAL delay tactic
      to trick Souls into being complacent.

      The "slowing down of EK Initiations" is a tease and
      is used to keep ECKists hungry for that carrot... that
      next initiation.

      Please feel free to share your insights of the following:
      [My Caps]
      ****************************************************
      ASK THE MASTER

      Q: "In the ECK writings, we refer to the goals of Self-
      Realization and God-Realization, BUT we also recognize
      a major goal between the two, namely Spiritual Realization.

      I understand these to denote the realization of Soul,
      Spirit, and of God, respectively. Could you please expand
      a little on What is meant by Spiritual Realization and
      How it differs from the other two goals?"

      HK: "SELF-REALIZATION deals with Soul's unfoldment at the
      FIFTH Initiation. Here, an individual is learning How to be
      an ever-clearer channel as a CO-WORKER With The MAHANTA.

      SPIRITUAL-REALIZATION, AS IT IS USED HERE, speaks of a
      Finer Level Than The One That Occurs From The SIXTH
      To The EIGHTH Initiations.

      The EIGHTH Initiation is the Threshold to SPIRITUAL REALIZATION.

      This Area embraces the NINTH Through the ELEVENTH ECK
      INITIATIONS.

      Here, one Continues to be a CO-WORKER With the MAHANTA,
      BUT now HE also starts moving into far greater Responsibilities.
      HE is learning A BIT of what it means to be a CO-WORKER With
      GOD.

      GOD-REALIZATION runs from the TWELFTH INITIATION on up.
      The Duties and Responsibilities of these GOD-REALIZED Beings
      are beyond human comprehension. They Serve SUGMAD gladly
      and boldly.

      It is the Destiny of all who love the SUGMAD, heart and Soul,
      to Eventually reach these splendid heights too." [end of quote]

      *****************************************************

      Interesting that there was no signature to the question.
      It looks to me like Klemp asked and answered his own
      question (or Joan's). Klemp's answer kind of ties in with
      Part 2 of the 03/2008 Wisdom Notes... ECKists have plenty
      of lifetimes to get it right... what's the hurry? Harry's not
      worried!

      BTW- One doesn't need to be an ECKist to have "the
      realization of Soul, Spirit, and of God." And, ECKANKAR
      (religion) is actually a detriment to Realizing, Understanding,
      and Being one with TRUTH (Soul, Spirit, God).

      Prometheus
    • prometheus_973
      Hello All, Just a few more comments. Why does Klemp answer H.I. questions on the Outer? According to Eckankar is anything that is said by Klemp, or done by his
      Message 2 of 5 , Mar 15, 2008
        Hello All,
        Just a few more comments. Why does Klemp answer
        H.I. questions on the Outer? According to Eckankar
        is anything that is said by Klemp, or done by his
        Vahanas on the Outer, really matter since all is of the
        Lower Worlds of Illusion?

        Where are the Inner Communications (with other H.I.s
        too), the Spiritual Focus on Higher Planes, and where's
        the Outer Proof that Eckankar's Higher Initiations are
        Spiritually Valid via the demonstration of Higher Consciousness?


        ASK THE MASTER [Klemp's Reply]:

        HK: "SELF-REALIZATION deals with Soul's unfoldment
        at the FIFTH Initiation. Here, an individual is learning
        how to be an ever-clearer channel as a CO-WORKER
        With The MAHANTA."

        ME: Here's what the Shariyat has to say about, "Jivan Mukti
        which is Spiritual Liberation in this lifetime" and the EK 5th
        Initiation: "When one has definitely stripped off the Pinda
        values, then the ECKshar, the state of Self-Realization
        Consciousness, will burst forth and, and the heavenly
        music will bring Ecstasy... this is the Deliverance, the
        Disappearance of the Illusion of Servitude..." Yet, ECKists
        are expected to serve in this world of illusion rather than
        advance through the Inner via Spiritual Exercises and
        "do nothing." Afterall, this is the "paradox of Eckankar"
        which states, "One sits still and does nothing..." [Shariyat 2,
        Ch. 1]

        HK: "SPIRITUAL-REALIZATION, as it is used here, speaks
        of a finer level Than The One that occurs from the SIXTH
        to the EIGHTH Initiations."

        ME: I know that Klemp had previously said Spiritual-
        Realization referred to the 6th and 7th initiations. But
        now he's saying that there's another "level" (a "finer" one)
        of "Spiritual Realization" and it includes more levels than
        the 6th, 7th, and 8th! Klemp likes to make "changes"
        mid-stream doesn't he! That's another use of Catch-22!

        HK: "The EIGHTH Initiation is the Threshold to SPIRITUAL
        REALIZATION."

        ME: As I remember it the 8th initiation was the "Threshold"
        to God-Realization! The Shariyat states, "The initiate of the
        Eighth Circle... is now at the crossroads of eternity..."

        HK: "This Area embraces the NINTH Through the ELEVENTH
        ECK INITIATIONS.

        ME: Now this is just crazy! The SHARIYAT states, "The initiate
        of the ELEVENTH Circle... This is the initiate's entrance into the
        SUGMAD world... REBIRTH is gained in this world which is the
        land of the SUGMAD. This REBIRTH is that which is known as
        GOD-REALIZATION..."

        HK: "Here, one continues to be a CO-WORKER With the
        MAHANTA, BUT now he also starts moving into far greater
        Responsibilities. He is learning a bit of what it means to be
        a CO-WORKER With GOD.

        GOD-REALIZATION runs from the TWELFTH INITIATION
        on up. The Duties and Responsibilities of these GOD-
        REALIZED Beings are beyond human comprehension.
        They Serve SUGMAD gladly and boldly."

        ME: Actually, Chelas are serving Klemp Not Sugmad!
        Again, this is Not what the Shariyat states! Look in
        Chapter 12 of the Shariyat Book 2 at what it states
        about the 11th CIRCLE of Initiation! Klemp got it wrong
        again! GOD-REALIZATION runs from the 11th on up
        NOT the "12th on up!"

        HK: "It is the Destiny of all who love the SUGMAD, heart
        and Soul, to Eventually reach these splendid heights too."

        [end of HK's answer]


        Why doesn't Klemp say, SUGMAD-REALIZATION
        instead of GOD-REALIZATION? HK mentions SUGMAD,
        but Not Sugmad-Realization. Isn't "God" really KAL?!

        Anyway, the Shariyat states, "No one is to be impeded
        on his way to GOD-REALIZATION." [Shariyat 2, Ch. 4]
        Yet Klemp has impeded ECKists from Twitchell's and
        Gross' day by adding the CO-WORKER with the MAHANTA,
        and the SPIRITUAL-REALIZATION requirements, as well as,
        other delays (requirements/training) to slow down
        initiations and levels needed for God-Realization.

        Most of those Chelas with 15 years as a 7th Initiate
        and who have been RESAs should have been made
        8ths years ago! There should be many more 9ths too!
        Klemp is just too stingy and fearful to share! Wouldn't
        an advanced Master have more advanced Chelas!

        On the other hand, if SUGMAD resides on the "10th
        PLANE" (the ANAMI LOK) Why do chelas have to go
        beyond the 10th for God-Realization or Sugmad-Realization?
        Look at the definition for Anami Lok in the EK Lexicon!
        ECKists are being strung along with that carrot. How
        arrogant (and fearful) Twitchell must have been to have
        created the 14th Mahanta position. Yet, ECKists don't
        seem to have a problem with "the SUGMAD" residing
        on the 10th PLANE!

        But, let's face it... Religion is, mostly, a placebo for what
        ails people. Some religions use an "active placebo" which
        stimulates the "feel-good" areas of the mind via missionary
        work, imagination, and ego. They notice "changes" in their
        lives and dreams, etc., therefore, they can see it or something
        working and come to believe in it even more so as this new
        religious Wheel cycles on and on. Therefore, people expect to
        see and hear what fits and feels good within the parameters
        of their belief system of religious Dogma. If most of these
        lonely ECKists didn't have so much time invested (and initiations)
        and all of those ECK friends and those EK social connections
        they would let their ECK Memberships lapse! Eckankar doesn't
        work... but for them it's better than nothing.

        Prometheus
      • prometheus_973
        Both Twitchell and Gross emphasized SELF-REALIZATION and GOD-REALIZATION, as well as, being a Co-Worker with God. WHY is it that Klemp created another level,
        Message 3 of 5 , Mar 18, 2008
          Both Twitchell and Gross emphasized SELF-REALIZATION
          and GOD-REALIZATION, as well as, being a Co-Worker
          with God.

          WHY is it that Klemp created another level, SPIRITUAL
          REALIZATION and being a Co-Worker with the Mahanta?

          Shouldn't there be a Higher Group Consciousness with
          Klemp in charge of ECKANKAR for 25 years? WHY hasn't
          HK created a More Direct and Shorter Path to GOD-REALIZATION
          compared to the days of Twitchell and Gross? What's wrong
          with this picture because Klemp has done just the opposite!
          Is that his true mission... to trick ECKists and detract them?!

          And, Why isn't the goal for ECKists SUGMAD-REALIZATION?!
          "God" is actually KAL. Klemp, when speaking to other ECKists
          only, should use the correct terminology. And, it should Not
          be "the" SUGMAD since it's not "the" God. It should just be SUGMAD!

          Like I said, If Klemp is all that he claims then Why did he
          Slow Down initiations (growth to higher levels), for 25 years,
          and create a bunch of outer rules and procedures and requirements,
          and add more levels before one can attain GOD/SUGMAD-REALIZATION?!
          Oh, I know why! HK's a pseudo Master, selfish, and a KAL agent!
          His original dim red light when out years ago! Think about it!
          Why did Klemp add "Spiritual-Realization" and being a "Co-worker
          with the Mahanta?" It's to have plenty of hungry Sales Reps trying
          to qualify for those bonus points!

          Why does Klemp claim that a 12th Circle Initiate reaches God-
          Realization when the Shariyat states that a 11th Circle Initiate
          reaches God-Realization?!

          Why does HK say that an ECKist of the 8th Circle is on the
          threshold to Spiritual Realization instead of God-Realization?
          Look at the Shariyat 2 CH. 12!

          ASK THE MASTER [Klemp's Reply]:
          >
          > HK: "SELF-REALIZATION deals with Soul's unfoldment
          > at the FIFTH Initiation. Here, an individual is learning
          > how to be an ever-clearer channel as a CO-WORKER
          > With The MAHANTA."
          >
          > ME: Here's what the Shariyat has to say about, "Jivan Mukti
          > which is Spiritual Liberation in this lifetime" and the EK 5th
          > Initiation: "When one has definitely stripped off the Pinda
          > values, then the ECKshar, the state of Self-Realization
          > Consciousness, will burst forth and, and the heavenly
          > music will bring Ecstasy... this is the Deliverance, the
          > Disappearance of the Illusion of Servitude..." Yet, ECKists
          > are expected to serve in this world of illusion rather than
          > advance through the Inner via Spiritual Exercises and
          > "do nothing." Afterall, this is the "paradox of Eckankar"
          > which states, "One sits still and does nothing..." [Shariyat 2,
          > Ch. 1]
          >
          > HK: "SPIRITUAL-REALIZATION, as it is used here, speaks
          > of a finer level Than The One that occurs from the SIXTH
          > to the EIGHTH Initiations."
          >
          > ME: I know that Klemp had previously said Spiritual-
          > Realization referred to the 6th and 7th initiations. But
          > now he's saying that there's another "level" (a "finer" one)
          > of "Spiritual Realization" and it includes more levels than
          > the 6th, 7th, and 8th! Klemp likes to make "changes"
          > mid-stream doesn't he! That's another use of Catch-22!
          >
          > HK: "The EIGHTH Initiation is the Threshold to SPIRITUAL
          > REALIZATION."
          >
          > ME: As I remember it the 8th initiation was the "Threshold"
          > to God-Realization! The Shariyat states, "The initiate of the
          > Eighth Circle... is now at the crossroads of eternity..."
          >
          > HK: "This Area embraces the NINTH Through the ELEVENTH
          > ECK INITIATIONS.
          >
          > ME: Now this is just crazy! The SHARIYAT states, "The initiate
          > of the ELEVENTH Circle... This is the initiate's entrance into the
          > SUGMAD world... REBIRTH is gained in this world which is the
          > land of the SUGMAD. This REBIRTH is that which is known as
          > GOD-REALIZATION..."
          >
          > HK: "Here, one continues to be a CO-WORKER With the
          > MAHANTA, BUT now he also starts moving into far greater
          > Responsibilities. He is learning a bit of what it means to be
          > a CO-WORKER With GOD.
          >
          > GOD-REALIZATION runs from the TWELFTH INITIATION
          > on up. The Duties and Responsibilities of these GOD-
          > REALIZED Beings are beyond human comprehension.
          > They Serve SUGMAD gladly and boldly."
          >
          > ME: Actually, Chelas are serving Klemp Not Sugmad!
          > Again, this is Not what the Shariyat states! Look in
          > Chapter 12 of the Shariyat Book 2 at what it states
          > about the 11th CIRCLE of Initiation! Klemp got it wrong
          > again! GOD-REALIZATION runs from the 11th on up
          > NOT the "12th on up!"
          >
          > HK: "It is the Destiny of all who love the SUGMAD, heart
          > and Soul, to Eventually reach these splendid heights too."
          >
          > [end of HK's answer]

          > Anyway, the Shariyat states, "No one is to be impeded
          > on his way to GOD-REALIZATION." [Shariyat 2, Ch. 4]
          > Yet Klemp has impeded ECKists from Twitchell's and
          > Gross' day by adding the CO-WORKER with the MAHANTA,
          > and the SPIRITUAL-REALIZATION requirements, as well as,
          > other delays (requirements/training) to slow down
          > initiations and levels needed for God-Realization.
          >
          > Most of those Chelas with 15 years as a 7th Initiate
          > and who have been RESAs should have been made
          > 8ths years ago! There should be many more 9ths too!
          > Klemp is just too stingy and fearful to share! Wouldn't
          > an advanced Master have more advanced Chelas!
          >
          > On the other hand, if SUGMAD resides on the "10th
          > PLANE" (the ANAMI LOK) Why do chelas have to go
          > beyond the 10th for God-Realization or Sugmad-Realization?
          > Look at the definition for Anami Lok in the EK Lexicon!
          > ECKists are being strung along with that carrot. How
          > arrogant (and fearful) Twitchell must have been to have
          > created the 14th Mahanta position. Yet, ECKists don't
          > seem to have a problem with "the SUGMAD" residing
          > on the 10th PLANE!
          >
          > But, let's face it... Religion is, mostly, a placebo for what
          > ails people. Some religions use an "active placebo" which
          > stimulates the "feel-good" areas of the mind via missionary
          > work, imagination, and ego. They notice "changes" in their
          > lives and dreams, etc., therefore, they can see it or something
          > working and come to believe in it even more so as this new
          > religious Wheel cycles on and on. Therefore, people expect to
          > see and hear what fits and feels good within the parameters
          > of their belief system of religious Dogma. If most of these
          > lonely ECKists didn't have so much time invested (and initiations)
          > and all of those ECK friends and those EK social connections
          > they would let their ECK Memberships lapse! Eckankar doesn't
          > work... but for them it's better than nothing.
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
        • prometheus_973
          Maybe this is a topic that ECKists can discuss at the EK Springtime Seminar. What happened to Self-Realization and THEN God-Realization? Why the extra drawn
          Message 4 of 5 , Mar 21, 2008
            Maybe this is a topic that ECKists can discuss at the
            EK Springtime Seminar. What happened to Self-Realization
            and THEN God-Realization? Why the extra drawn out
            "Spiritual-Realization" stage? Klemp is a scammer and
            this proves it!

            prometheus wrote:
            >
            > Both Twitchell and Gross emphasized SELF-REALIZATION
            > and GOD-REALIZATION, as well as, being a Co-Worker
            > with God.
            >
            > WHY is it that Klemp created another level, SPIRITUAL
            > REALIZATION and being a Co-Worker with the Mahanta?
            >
            > Shouldn't there be a Higher Group Consciousness with
            > Klemp in charge of ECKANKAR for 25 years? WHY hasn't
            > HK created a More Direct and Shorter Path to GOD-REALIZATION
            > compared to the days of Twitchell and Gross? What's wrong
            > with this picture because Klemp has done just the opposite!
            > Is that his true mission... to trick ECKists and detract them?!
            >
            > And, Why isn't the goal for ECKists SUGMAD-REALIZATION?!
            > "God" is actually KAL. Klemp, when speaking to other ECKists
            > only, should use the correct terminology. And, it should Not
            > be "the" SUGMAD since it's not "the" God. It should just be SUGMAD!
            >
            > Like I said, If Klemp is all that he claims then Why did he
            > Slow Down initiations (growth to higher levels), for 25 years,
            > and create a bunch of outer rules and procedures and requirements,
            > and add more levels before one can attain GOD/SUGMAD-REALIZATION?!
            > Oh, I know why! HK's a pseudo Master, selfish, and a KAL agent!
            > His original dim red light when out years ago! Think about it!
            > Why did Klemp add "Spiritual-Realization" and being a "Co-worker
            > with the Mahanta?" It's to have plenty of hungry Sales Reps trying
            > to qualify for those bonus points!
            >
            > Why does Klemp claim that a 12th Circle Initiate reaches God-
            > Realization when the Shariyat states that a 11th Circle Initiate
            > reaches God-Realization?!
            >
            > Why does HK say that an ECKist of the 8th Circle is on the
            > threshold to Spiritual Realization instead of God-Realization?
            > Look at the Shariyat 2 CH. 12!
            >
            > ASK THE MASTER [Klemp's Reply]:
            > >
            > > HK: "SELF-REALIZATION deals with Soul's unfoldment
            > > at the FIFTH Initiation. Here, an individual is learning
            > > how to be an ever-clearer channel as a CO-WORKER
            > > With The MAHANTA."
            > >
            > > ME: Here's what the Shariyat has to say about, "Jivan Mukti
            > > which is Spiritual Liberation in this lifetime" and the EK 5th
            > > Initiation: "When one has definitely stripped off the Pinda
            > > values, then the ECKshar, the state of Self-Realization
            > > Consciousness, will burst forth and, and the heavenly
            > > music will bring Ecstasy... this is the Deliverance, the
            > > Disappearance of the Illusion of Servitude..." Yet, ECKists
            > > are expected to serve in this world of illusion rather than
            > > advance through the Inner via Spiritual Exercises and
            > > "do nothing." Afterall, this is the "paradox of Eckankar"
            > > which states, "One sits still and does nothing..." [Shariyat 2,
            > > Ch. 1]
            > >
            > > HK: "SPIRITUAL-REALIZATION, as it is used here, speaks
            > > of a finer level Than The One that occurs from the SIXTH
            > > to the EIGHTH Initiations."
            > >
            > > ME: I know that Klemp had previously said Spiritual-
            > > Realization referred to the 6th and 7th initiations. But
            > > now he's saying that there's another "level" (a "finer" one)
            > > of "Spiritual Realization" and it includes more levels than
            > > the 6th, 7th, and 8th! Klemp likes to make "changes"
            > > mid-stream doesn't he! That's another use of Catch-22!
            > >
            > > HK: "The EIGHTH Initiation is the Threshold to SPIRITUAL
            > > REALIZATION."
            > >
            > > ME: As I remember it the 8th initiation was the "Threshold"
            > > to God-Realization! The Shariyat states, "The initiate of the
            > > Eighth Circle... is now at the crossroads of eternity..."
            > >
            > > HK: "This Area embraces the NINTH Through the ELEVENTH
            > > ECK INITIATIONS.
            > >
            > > ME: Now this is just crazy! The SHARIYAT states, "The initiate
            > > of the ELEVENTH Circle... This is the initiate's entrance into the
            > > SUGMAD world... REBIRTH is gained in this world which is the
            > > land of the SUGMAD. This REBIRTH is that which is known as
            > > GOD-REALIZATION..."
            > >
            > > HK: "Here, one continues to be a CO-WORKER With the
            > > MAHANTA, BUT now he also starts moving into far greater
            > > Responsibilities. He is learning a bit of what it means to be
            > > a CO-WORKER With GOD.
            > >
            > > GOD-REALIZATION runs from the TWELFTH INITIATION
            > > on up. The Duties and Responsibilities of these GOD-
            > > REALIZED Beings are beyond human comprehension.
            > > They Serve SUGMAD gladly and boldly."
            > >
            > > ME: Actually, Chelas are serving Klemp Not Sugmad!
            > > Again, this is Not what the Shariyat states! Look in
            > > Chapter 12 of the Shariyat Book 2 at what it states
            > > about the 11th CIRCLE of Initiation! Klemp got it wrong
            > > again! GOD-REALIZATION runs from the 11th on up
            > > NOT the "12th on up!"
            > >
            > > HK: "It is the Destiny of all who love the SUGMAD, heart
            > > and Soul, to Eventually reach these splendid heights too."
            > >
            > > [end of HK's answer]
            >
            > > Anyway, the Shariyat states, "No one is to be impeded
            > > on his way to GOD-REALIZATION." [Shariyat 2, Ch. 4]
            > > Yet Klemp has impeded ECKists from Twitchell's and
            > > Gross' day by adding the CO-WORKER with the MAHANTA,
            > > and the SPIRITUAL-REALIZATION requirements, as well as,
            > > other delays (requirements/training) to slow down
            > > initiations and levels needed for God-Realization.
            > >
            > > Most of those Chelas with 15 years as a 7th Initiate
            > > and who have been RESAs should have been made
            > > 8ths years ago! There should be many more 9ths too!
            > > Klemp is just too stingy and fearful to share! Wouldn't
            > > an advanced Master have more advanced Chelas!
            > >
            > > On the other hand, if SUGMAD resides on the "10th
            > > PLANE" (the ANAMI LOK) Why do chelas have to go
            > > beyond the 10th for God-Realization or Sugmad-Realization?
            > > Look at the definition for Anami Lok in the EK Lexicon!
            > > ECKists are being strung along with that carrot. How
            > > arrogant (and fearful) Twitchell must have been to have
            > > created the 14th Mahanta position. Yet, ECKists don't
            > > seem to have a problem with "the SUGMAD" residing
            > > on the 10th PLANE!
            > >
            > > But, let's face it... Religion is, mostly, a placebo for what
            > > ails people. Some religions use an "active placebo" which
            > > stimulates the "feel-good" areas of the mind via missionary
            > > work, imagination, and ego. They notice "changes" in their
            > > lives and dreams, etc., therefore, they can see it or something
            > > working and come to believe in it even more so as this new
            > > religious Wheel cycles on and on. Therefore, people expect to
            > > see and hear what fits and feels good within the parameters
            > > of their belief system of religious Dogma. If most of these
            > > lonely ECKists didn't have so much time invested (and initiations)
            > > and all of those ECK friends and those EK social connections
            > > they would let their ECK Memberships lapse! Eckankar doesn't
            > > work... but for them it's better than nothing.
            > >
            > > Prometheus
            > >
            >
          • prometheus_973
            Where do the 6th and 7th Circle EK Initiates fit-in? If the 8ths are on the threshold to Spiritual-Reaization and the 5ths are Self-Realized where are the
            Message 5 of 5 , Mar 22, 2008
              Where do the 6th and 7th Circle EK Initiates fit-in?
              If the 8ths are on the "threshold to Spiritual-Reaization"
              and the 5ths are Self-Realized where are the 6ths & 7ths?
              It looks like they're the losers and have been left out and
              disregarded! Or, is this just another oversight by Harry
              Not being a detailed person, or is he losing it even more so?

              So, here's the score (according to Klemp):

              5th Circle = Self-Realization
              6th & 7th Circle = ??
              8th Circle = Threshold to Spiritual-Realization
              9th, 10th, *11th Circle = Spiritual-Realization
              12th & 13th Circle = God-Realization
              14th Circle = Mahanta Consciousness

              *Note: The Shariyat states that the 11th Circle=God-Realization
              *****************************************************************
              ASK THE MASTER [Klemp's (partial) Reply]:

              HK: "SELF-REALIZATION deals with Soul's unfoldment
              at the FIFTH Initiation. Here, an individual is learning
              how to be an ever-clearer channel as a CO-WORKER
              With The MAHANTA.

              SPIRITUAL-REALIZATION, as it is used here, speaks
              of a finer level Than The One that occurs from the SIXTH
              to the EIGHTH Initiations.

              The EIGHTH Initiation is the Threshold to SPIRITUAL
              REALIZATION.

              This Area embraces the NINTH Through the ELEVENTH
              ECK INITIATIONS..."
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