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EK Levels of Con. & Initiation

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  • prometheus_973
    Why do Eckists always have the need to go back-to-the-basics after all of those higher initiations? Round and round the Wheel the mini-masters go as they
    Message 1 of 3 , Mar 7, 2008
      Why do Eckists always have the need to go
      "back-to-the-basics" after all of those higher
      initiations? Round and round the Wheel the
      mini-masters go as they attempt to find new
      ways to Change and Conform (brainwash) those
      chelas who don't fit-in and surrender their free
      will? It's because these TRUTH Seekers have already
      found their own Truth beyond the limiting dogma
      and guidelines of ECKANKAR.

      What does this say about the Group Consciousness
      of ECKANKAR after 25 YEARS with Klemp in Charge
      of Change?!

      Some H.I.s can't stand to have other EK Chelas
      treating them as peer (Soul=Soul). These H.I.s
      (mostly 6ths) want to be placed upon a pedestal
      like H.I.s were in the early days of EK. However,
      these deluded and narcissistic KAL Eckists judge
      other Eckists with negative comments and behaviours
      which shows their true nature and limited consciousness.

      Klemp became a 14th Full Mahanta when... after he
      booted Gross in mid 1983?

      Isn't it hinted at Klemp could be at a "higher" level
      than a 14th? Is Klemp a 33rd Initiate... a 99th... a 144th?

      Or, is Klemp a Zero to 12th Initiate? Klemp didn't have
      a Virgin Birth as is required for a Mahanta in the Holy
      Book of ECK The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad Book One. Check
      the index for "Mahanta, Birth of."

      I'm thinking Klemp is a ZERO INITIATE because he lied
      about being a 14th FULL MAHANTA... No Virgin Birth!
      Klemp had an older brother! Only a Zero (KAL agent)
      would lie, omit, or mislead, and Klemp did on this
      very important point of Spiritual Law!

      Plus, does Klemp really sound like he's a 33rd Initiate
      or higher?! Rumi was just a "follower of ECK" (EK Lexicon)
      hundreds of years ago and yet Klemp can only quote him!
      Also, Rumi followed what Klemp claims is a 4th Plane
      "God" (KAL or SATAN). [Autobiography of a Modern Prophet,
      pg. 385]

      Klemp, also, quotes Mark Twain because HK can't write
      anything that compares to non-ECKist Twain.

      Why would a Mahanta (of the highest consciousness ever)
      be born into this world and NOT HAVE any of the outstanding
      qualities or characteristics of AT LEAST a RUMI?! This doesn't
      make sense does it!

      Klemp is Not a Master on any level! HK's a mini-master/
      preacher/wanna-be that positioned himself early on at
      the ESC with Joan's help and under Marge's nose!

      BTW- If 2nd Initiate ECKists, in 1971, were the equivalent,
      in Consciousness (etc.), to JESUS... What or Who are 2nd
      Initiate ECKists equivalent to NOW after 25 years with Klemp
      in charge?

      Is 14th Initiate (500 year old) Rebazar still the equivalent
      of a 14th Initiate today... is RT higher or lower in consciousness
      today? Is RT the equivalent to a 5th Initiate today?

      WHY is it that SUGMAD resides on the ANAMI LOK,
      the 10th PLANE, and Klemp claims to be a 14th PLANE
      Mahanta? This doesn't make sense does it! PT, DG, and
      HK forgot to edit the definition for ANAMI LOK! See HK's
      EK LexiCon.

      This is where a "LEAP of FAITH" comes into play for
      ECKists and all of those who believe in religion! Common
      Sense, Logic and Critical Thinking is thrown out the
      window when it comes to religious beliefs. Just trust
      in the con and surrender your brain... that's the name
      of the game... fool! Look at history! Weak people need
      religion and they need others (numbers) to help them
      to believe. Why do people need a King, a Master, a Pope,
      and other man-made Gods? The Spiritual Seeker (Soul)
      needs only the direct private/personal Truth!

      Prometheus
    • etznab@aol.com
      Prometheus, About the Virgin Birth characteristic of the Mahanta and/or Living Eck Master, these and other mysterious elements be- hind the literal
      Message 2 of 3 , Mar 8, 2008
        Prometheus,

           About the "Virgin Birth" characteristic of the Mahanta and/or
        Living Eck Master, these and other "mysterious" elements be-
        hind the literal contradictions apparent in written dogma would,
        in my opinion, receive due respect if they were discussed with
        other members (including ex-members) in Eckankar. Primarily,
        IMO, it would be most helpful to go back to the time before the
        words were written. Look at the state of consciousness of the
        writer(s) and group consciousness then. Also it might be help-
        ful, IMO, to speak with today some of the people who were at
        that time instrumental in composing the written history/dogma
        for the teachings of Eckankar then. This way a person would
        not have to speculate or try and find out something on their
        own, but it would be much easier to ask the person(s) there
        at the time of composition what they were thinking.

           Adding to that, it would be helpful, IMO, to have for official
        discussion topics at Eckankar events some of the topics I
        see as most uncertain and/or controversial. They could in-
        clude the members or individuals then which wrote them up
        in the first place, or contemporay staff and/or lawyers that
        might have been instrumental forming that literature.

           The basic problem I see today is so much information
        going round and round, but seldom do we get to hear from
        the "horse's mouth", so to speak. Or, that which is at the
        "center" of the hurricane of controversy.

           Questions asked, when they are referred to anything
        other than the "root cause" can (and often do) lead to
        being "swept away" by the currents of "outer turmoil"
        spinning round the central issue. That "central issue"
        would be the truth, IMO, before it turned out anything
        harmful. Those on the fringe, on the outside of truth
        hoping to get in to the core of it, they will not find the
        "peace" that matters if only facing that which appears
        to prevent it.


           It's not popular though, IMO, to look at history with
        an eye for the facts. Ford Johnson's book, along with
        the subjects it addressed, came out almost 40 years
        after the official founding of Eckankar. Before that, it
        was David Lane in the 70's who's book brought out a
        number of questions. Here it is going on 2008 and it
        would seem a host of questions remain, or continue
        to go unanswered and/or satisfactorily explained.

           I guess it's all part of the karma. And that until
        they are mastered, certain lessons will keep on
        repeating themselves - like questions on a test -
        until the answers match the actual truth.

           At the same time, how can a member of Eckankar
        today answer questions correctly about subjects they
        have not seen the answers to themselves? Because
        usually, before a person takes a test, they have been
        given the answers already. Failing to answer correctly
        means facing the karma of having to go back and look
        at the correct answers and then taking the test over.
        Either way, it seems to me when something comes
        about concerning the answers to certain elements of
        written dogma, if a person has not seen for themself
        what is the answer, they can't very well get rid of the
        prospect of repeating that karma over and over.

           For example, with "Virgin Birth" I don't know why
        exactly that was written. I haven't been able to talk
        with the author and hear about why. Neither can I
        remember it coming up as a topic for discussion,
        or hearing from others in Eckankar at the time it
        was written the answer to why it was written.

           Not only members of Eckankar, but ex-members
        too are at a disadvantage answering correctly what
        is certain to baffle people for ages to come when it
        was not their privilege to see information that would
        lead to the correct answers in the first place.

           In other words, I don't believe people are always
        given satisfactory answers about religion, and they
        sometimes have to wonder if their religion even has
        the actual answers. Somewhere along the line - by
        looking at the chain of events - all of the questions
        can be answered. With history though, it seems to
        me that religious dogma comes up imperfect when
        it forgets, or chooses to forget, about certain links
        in the chain of its outer cause and effect evolution.

           I'm not giving this as support or condemnation of
        religion in general, but as my individual opinion only
        about things that don't appear to jive with fact, and
        why.

        Etznab

        Etznab

          




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      • prometheus_973
        Hi Etznab and All, Actually, one doesn t need to go back beyond the year 2000. The First Combined Printing of my leather bound Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad Books One &
        Message 3 of 3 , Mar 8, 2008
          Hi Etznab and All,
          Actually, one doesn't need to go back beyond
          the year 2000. The "First Combined Printing"
          of my leather bound Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad Books
          One & Two was printed under the permission and
          with the oversight of Klemp in 2000. Therefore,
          Klemp approved of this reference and requirement
          for a Virgin Birth of the Mahanta (pg.111) only
          Eight Years Ago!

          This is as "official" as it gets isn't it? The
          Shariyats are the HOLY BOOKS of ECK and these
          were edited and reprinted and "combined" under
          the direct knowledge and supervision of Klemp in
          2000! But, Klemp has never touched (edited) this
          Spiritual Law or Requirement for the Virgin Birth
          of a true Mahanta.

          This is a Shariyat "fact" (among others) that seems
          to be overlooked or disregarded by ECKists. Many
          ECKists merely accept something until it is proven
          otherwise. Until recently, however, people didn't
          know about Klemp's family history.

          Now we know that HK had an older brother who
          died of cancer back in the '80s. Therefore, HK's
          mother was Not a Virgin when Harold was born!
          This means that HK is Not a Mahanta. Klemp has
          lied about his real status. The "fact" that HK has
          lied about Not having a Virgin Birth, through omissions
          and misrepresentations, means HK is a KAL agent,
          a con man, and a false Master! Or, is Klemp so
          immersed in fantasy that he, too, is in denial of reality
          and truth like his chelas.

          "IMO, it would be most helpful to go back to the
          time before the words were written. Look at the
          state of consciousness of the writer(s) and group
          consciousness then. Also it might be helpful, IMO,
          to speak with today some of the people who were
          at that time instrumental in composing the written
          history/dogma for the teachings of Eckankar then."



          etznab wrote:
          >
          > Prometheus,
          >
          > About the "Virgin Birth" characteristic of the Mahanta and/or
          > Living Eck Master, these and other "mysterious" elements be-
          > hind the literal contradictions apparent in written dogma would,
          > in my opinion, receive due respect if they were discussed with
          > other members (including ex-members) in Eckankar. Primarily,
          > IMO, it would be most helpful to go back to the time before the
          > words were written. Look at the state of consciousness of the
          > writer(s) and group consciousness then. Also it might be help-
          > ful, IMO, to speak with today some of the people who were at
          > that time instrumental in composing the written history/dogma
          > for the teachings of Eckankar then. This way a person would
          > not have to speculate or try and find out something on their
          > own, but it would be much easier to ask the person(s) there
          > at the time of composition what they were thinking.
          >
          > Adding to that, it would be helpful, IMO, to have for official
          > discussion topics at Eckankar events some of the topics I
          > see as most uncertain and/or controversial. They could in-
          > clude the members or individuals then which wrote them up
          > in the first place, or contemporay staff and/or lawyers that
          > might have been instrumental forming that literature.
          >
          > The basic problem I see today is so much information
          > going round and round, but seldom do we get to hear from
          > the "horse's mouth", so to speak. Or, that which is at the
          > "center" of the hurricane of controversy.
          >
          > Questions asked, when they are referred to anything
          > other than the "root cause" can (and often do) lead to
          > being "swept away" by the currents of "outer turmoil"
          > spinning round the central issue. That "central issue"
          > would be the truth, IMO, before it turned out anything
          > harmful. Those on the fringe, on the outside of truth
          > hoping to get in to the core of it, they will not find the
          > "peace" that matters if only facing that which appears
          > to prevent it.
          >
          >
          > It's not popular though, IMO, to look at history with
          > an eye for the facts. Ford Johnson's book, along with
          > the subjects it addressed, came out almost 40 years
          > after the official founding of Eckankar. Before that, it
          > was David Lane in the 70's who's book brought out a
          > number of questions. Here it is going on 2008 and it
          > would seem a host of questions remain, or continue
          > to go unanswered and/or satisfactorily explained.
          >
          > I guess it's all part of the karma. And that until
          > they are mastered, certain lessons will keep on
          > repeating themselves - like questions on a test -
          > until the answers match the actual truth.
          >
          > At the same time, how can a member of Eckankar
          > today answer questions correctly about subjects they
          > have not seen the answers to themselves? Because
          > usually, before a person takes a test, they have been
          > given the answers already. Failing to answer correctly
          > means facing the karma of having to go back and look
          > at the correct answers and then taking the test over.
          > Either way, it seems to me when something comes
          > about concerning the answers to certain elements of
          > written dogma, if a person has not seen for themself
          > what is the answer, they can't very well get rid of the
          > prospect of repeating that karma over and over.
          >
          > For example, with "Virgin Birth" I don't know why
          > exactly that was written. I haven't been able to talk
          > with the author and hear about why. Neither can I
          > remember it coming up as a topic for discussion,
          > or hearing from others in Eckankar at the time it
          > was written the answer to why it was written.
          >
          > Not only members of Eckankar, but ex-members
          > too are at a disadvantage answering correctly what
          > is certain to baffle people for ages to come when it
          > was not their privilege to see information that would
          > lead to the correct answers in the first place.
          >
          > In other words, I don't believe people are always
          > given satisfactory answers about religion, and they
          > sometimes have to wonder if their religion even has
          > the actual answers. Somewhere along the line - by
          > looking at the chain of events - all of the questions
          > can be answered. With history though, it seems to
          > me that religious dogma comes up imperfect when
          > it forgets, or chooses to forget, about certain links
          > in the chain of its outer cause and effect evolution.
          >
          > I'm not giving this as support or condemnation of
          > religion in general, but as my individual opinion only
          > about things that don't appear to jive with fact, and
          > why.
          >
          > Etznab
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