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Klemp Distorts the Steps to God Realization

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  • prometheus_973
    In the 1989 copyright of Child in the Wilderness the 3rd Living Eck Master/Mahanta Harold Klemp takes a 20/20 hindsight approach to storytelling in order to
    Message 1 of 14 , Jul 26 5:52 PM
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      In the 1989 copyright of "Child in the Wilderness" the 3rd Living
      Eck Master/Mahanta Harold Klemp takes a 20/20 hindsight approach to
      storytelling in order to validate his current leadership position.
      HK comes up with average run-of-the-mill stories to porve why he is
      spiritually superior to every other Soul anywhere!

      On pages 11-17 Klemp talks abut how the Mahanta wished to impress
      upon him the single mindedness needed for God Realization. These
      three "Ping-Pong" experiences took place before he joined Eckankar.
      Therefore, Klemp is setting the stage to show that he was the Chosen
      One prior to joining Eckankar, and that everything else was aslo
      part of his training. I guess George Bush could say the same thing!
      The real truth is that Klemp did have a single minded and
      obsessive/compulsive focus on becoming the L.E.M. He accomplished
      his goal by worming his way in to be trusted by his Mahanta Darwin
      Gross, but true God Realization has always eluded Klemp. Klemp
      states, in the Paul Twitchell Archive on Eckankar.org (Christ
      Consciousness and the Mahanta Consciousness) that, "The Christ
      Consciousness is the Mahanta Consciousness geared to fit the
      individual's understanding." This is just one example that shows
      Klemp's lack of understanding regarding other levels of awareness
      when he makes narrow dogmatic comparisons like this. Klemp's real
      problem is more than just semantics and delusion, but with the
      inherited motives revolving around Eckankar's need to distort the
      truth and support the illusion that it has all of the answers for
      the spiritual seeker!

      Anyway, let's get back to the Ping-Pong. In Klemp's first Ping-Pong
      experience towards "God Realization" he states the following:
      (1) "Jim hammered me with his merciless style of play. I was angry
      because of the shameless way he milked the crude playing conditions.
      My attention should have been on winning. Disgust at his poor
      sportsmanship pulled my mind off the game until he won it hands
      down." Now ask yourself, does it sound like Jim was showing poor
      sportsmanship, or Harold? Harold mentions his own anger and disgust
      while complaining about the playing conditions and Jim's "shameless
      way" his skills bested Harold's. Harold also makes a very telling
      comment by saying, "My attention should have been upon winning." I
      guess HK was the big winner when he tricked Gross and became the 3rd
      L.E.M.! HK should have been pointing out his own need to be less
      judgmental and less attached to his ego!

      HK's second Ping-Pong experience came three years later. By the way,
      in Eckankar "three" is seen as a mystical, spiritual or lucky number
      that is to be used whenever possible. Its use, in Eckankar, is not
      that of a real spiritual law, but it does have a superstitious
      importance and also has ties to the Christian Trinity. Harold
      continues his story of how the Mahanta wanted him to develop "a one-
      pointed mind." (2) "My opponent in the fianl play-off was Norm a
      diminutive boy with a large birthmark on his right cheek. He was
      socially withdrawn because of this. . . Last time, my emotions had
      been upended because Jim took unfair advantage of a crowded Ping-
      Pong room. This time runaway emotions were my downfall again, due to
      pity for Norm's disfigurement." So now Klemp shows pity due to a
      terrible disfigurement that his opponent had (a birthmark) and is
      distracted from winning! Klemp's "spiritual" and "profound"
      experiences towards God Realization are so enlightening! But once
      again, Klemp fails to see the true spiritual meaning of these past
      events even as the present Mahanta. But, this is because HK does Not
      really have all that high of a "spiritual consciousness." HK just
      claims to have this based on the dogma and belief system that
      Twitchell created!

      Okay, ho-hum here's the last one that took place in Japan in 1966.
      Klemp starts off complaining about his plane trip to another U.S.
      Air Force base near Tokyo for the Ping-Pong tournament. HK seems to
      complain, blame, or judge quite a bit, doesn't he? Read this book
      yourself and see my point. And remember, HK wrote these clueless and
      unloving accounts to teach Eckists what. . .to be unkind and
      judgmental, or to be one-pointed to win God Realization! It seems
      like Klemp is promoting delusion and irresponsibility! (3) "Just as
      I was ready to serve the ball and wrap up the game, the door at the
      rear of the auditorium banged open. In marched an airman bearing a
      huge trophy in his arms. My eyes opened wide at taht huge symbol of
      triumph; it broke my concentration. . . Steve took the last two
      points. .. and went on to sweep not just our second match, but the
      tournament." Now what I want to know is what happened in the "second
      match?" we hear the excuses of everything up till now, but what was
      it about the second match that caused Klemp to lose? Did he keep
      looking over at the trophy and drooled on his paddle?

      Here's the key to Klemp's success. "The Mahanta had hidden a
      valuable lesson for me in the three Ping-Pong tournaments. At the
      time it was unclear, but years later, after I was in ECK, they were
      a reminder to check my emotions while in pursuit of any desired
      goal." So, I guess that the keys are having a one-pointed (narrow
      obsessive/compulsive) mind, and ultra strong desires (attachement)
      to win God Realization! Doesn't this contradict spiritual law or the
      five virtues? I know that HK got in on the ground floor of the
      Eckankar hierarchy and worked in the Eckankar office to position
      himself and to get noticed early on. But, one has to give up desires
      and at some point find contentment. One should also keep the mind
      open to all possibilities, but use common sense and critical
      thinking. . . investigate and question your sources! Harold just
      took advantage of a situation, played the game, and then betrayed
      his Master. This mean spirited arrogance has made Klemp into the
      actor/millionaire he is today! Many "unconscious" egomaniacs can't
      see that what they are preaching applies to them, or that real Truth
      and Freedom will always be elusive for those who place their
      attention on mind games or another's truth. The arrogance of ego
      will always be focused on the outer and will deceive and distract
      one from the need to look and listen within. Fools rush in, but it
      is our responsibility not to be foolish. However, if one can
      understand the fool one can use their consistent foolishness as a
      litmus test for truth! It's a form of reversed polarity!

      Prometheus

      p.s. There is an old "Eck" song that has the popular lyrics of: "Is
      it true, is it necessary, is it kind? These three things I ask
      myself before I speak my mind." Now re-read the supposedly "true"
      observations Joan made and the unnecessary, unkind, and "emotional"
      comments HK makes about that Temporary Postal Clerk in the 09/2003
      H.I. Letter! Perhaps I'm acting as Klemp's Mahanta when reminding
      him to "check" his "emotions" in order to have that "one-pointed
      mind" for God Realization. Funny, that he hasn't learned all that
      much since 1966, but talk is cheap when one is faking it!
    • Greg and Liz
      As I was reading your take on Klumps book CITW, it crossed my mind that you would make a wonderful reviewer if that would be the title. Have you ever gone
      Message 2 of 14 , Jul 26 6:07 PM
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        As I was reading your take on Klumps book CITW, it crossed my mind that you would make a wonderful "reviewer" if that would be the title.  Have you ever gone to one of the web sites that sells Eck books and gave a review so that it may help in keeping people from bothering to get pulled into the cult?  Amazon.com, or  abebooks.com etc ;-)  go to these sites and give your comments on certain eck books...
         

        prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
        In the 1989 copyright of "Child in the Wilderness" the 3rd Living
        Eck Master/Mahanta Harold Klemp takes a 20/20 hindsight approach to
        storytelling in order to validate his current leadership position.
      • ctecvie
        First of all, thanks very much for the excellent review, Prometheus. Liz is right - you should write reviews on amazon etc.! ... Indeed, these stories are very
        Message 3 of 14 , Jul 27 6:54 AM
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          First of all, thanks very much for the excellent review, Prometheus.
          Liz is right - you should write reviews on amazon etc.!

          > HK comes up with average run-of-the-mill stories to prove why he is
          > spiritually superior to every other Soul anywhere!

          Indeed, these stories are very ordinary. In fact, we have such
          incidents all the time - so I guess we have to be masters, too! :-)

          > On pages 11-17 Klemp talks about how the Mahanta wished to impress
          > upon him the single mindedness needed for God Realization. These
          > three "Ping-Pong" experiences took place before he joined Eckankar.
          > Therefore, Klemp is setting the stage to show that he was the
          Chosen
          > One prior to joining Eckankar, and that everything else was aslo
          > part of his training. I guess George Bush could say the same thing!

          Any leader in the world can say the same thing, in fact, because they
          all have, from their point of view, good reasons why they act as they
          do!


          > The real truth is that Klemp did have a single minded and
          > obsessive/compulsive focus on becoming the L.E.M. He accomplished
          > his goal by worming his way in to be trusted by his Mahanta Darwin
          > Gross, but true God Realization has always eluded Klemp. Klemp
          > states, in the Paul Twitchell Archive on Eckankar.org (Christ
          > Consciousness and the Mahanta Consciousness) that, "The Christ
          > Consciousness is the Mahanta Consciousness geared to fit the
          > individual's understanding." This is just one example that shows
          > Klemp's lack of understanding regarding other levels of awareness
          > when he makes narrow dogmatic comparisons like this. Klemp's real
          > problem is more than just semantics and delusion, but with the
          > inherited motives revolving around Eckankar's need to distort the
          > truth and support the illusion that it has all of the answers for
          > the spiritual seeker!

          I'm still amazed about how people can fall for this crap - and how it
          happened that I fell for it, too! It's so obvious once you are out of
          the teachings but you can't see it while you are still in it.

          > Harold also makes a very telling
          > comment by saying, "My attention should have been upon winning." I
          > guess HK was the big winner when he tricked Gross and became the
          3rd
          > L.E.M.! HK should have been pointing out his own need to be less
          > judgmental and less attached to his ego!

          He's the 973th LEM, Prometheus! ;-)
          On another note, I have just finished reading "Non violent
          communication" by Marshall Rosenberg which I found excellent.
          Rosenberg, among other things, says that we should find out what our
          own needs are, and by doing that, develop more understanding towards
          others as well and thus become less judgmental. Rosenberg is a man
          who seems to act as he says - HK could learn a lot from him! For me,
          people like him are much more spiritual than self-appointed masters
          like HK!

          > Klemp's "spiritual" and "profound"
          > experiences towards God Realization are so enlightening! But once
          > again, Klemp fails to see the true spiritual meaning of these past
          > events even as the present Mahanta. But, this is because HK does
          Not
          > really have all that high of a "spiritual consciousness." HK just
          > claims to have this based on the dogma and belief system that
          > Twitchell created!

          And PT didn't have a high "spiritual consciousness" either! So why
          his successor should have?!

          > I know that HK got in on the ground floor of the
          > Eckankar hierarchy and worked in the Eckankar office to position
          > himself and to get noticed early on.

          He said in his biography that he was in the printing department
          somewhere? The thing is that he never said where that was! He had
          this job with Eckankar! It seems like a fraud to me that he didn't
          say that Eckankar was his employer because we were led to believe
          that he worked somewhere else. I'm sure that many others were held in
          that false belief as well! It shows exactly the person he used to be
          and still is, in my opinion.

          > But, one has to give up desires
          > and at some point find contentment. One should also keep the mind
          > open to all possibilities, but use common sense and critical
          > thinking. . . investigate and question your sources!

          We all know that critical thinking and common sense are not
          encouraged in Eckankar. Remember the saying "don't criticize, never
          find fault"? PT knew why he said that - and why this is still being
          taught in Eckankar! Just don't question ... I never was comfortable
          with that, I always thought that there had to be a kind of feedback
          because if nobody gives feedback then we never would grow, or much
          slower. There's a kind of positive feedback we can learn, but it
          seems that Eckankar never was interested in that. We all know why by
          now I think!

          Ingrid
        • mishmisha9
          ... is ... ) My comments: I took the time to read almost all of Klemp s books. I finished all of the transcripts, his two autobiographies and a few others.
          Message 4 of 14 , Jul 27 7:49 AM
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            Prometheus said:
            > > HK comes up with average run-of-the-mill stories to prove why he
            is
            > > spiritually superior to every other Soul anywhere!
            >

            Ingrid said:
            > Indeed, these stories are very ordinary. In fact, we have such
            > incidents all the time - so I guess we have to be masters, too! :-
            )

            My comments:
            I took the time to read almost all of Klemp's books. I finished all
            of the transcripts, his two autobiographies and a few others. Yes,
            they were "average run-of-the mill stories," and repeats, all of
            them! I believe Ford Johnson refers to them as "thin soup." I didn't
            find anything that was very enlightening except for a few comments
            that Harold threw in from time to time, like, "it would be foolish
            to believe all that I write or say"--he said something to that
            affect. I thought wow, he's right on there, and it seemed to be both
            a disclaimer and a release. In other words, he was telling people
            don't take him seriously or you will be a fool! I think that is the
            best thing he wrote and the most honest he has been.

            At the time of leaving Eckankar, I was reading those cute little Eck
            Parables. Now most of those stories were weird. I'd read one aloud
            to my husband and we'd both say that's ridiculous! : ) We had quite
            a few laughs about the craziness in those stories--and we were still
            members of the org!! Klemp's stories were very one-sided and
            judgmental, and he didn't seem to grasp the full implications of
            events, especially from another person's perspective--it all fell
            rather short. It was easy to see greater insights, even after he had
            given his simplistic analysis, and this was disappointing to me.
            Even recognizing these flawed stories and other happenings in
            Eckankar, I don't think we would have left the organization if it
            were not for reading Ford Johnson's "Confessions of a God Seeker."
            Every member of Eckankar should read this book! If the belief is
            strong and real, there should be no fear in reading it! And
            certainly, if you have doubts or questions, Ford's book provides the
            answers--and will get you to do more research and evaluations
            of "spiritual" and religious teachings. I want to eventually do a
            review on Ford's book and post it here.

            Mish
          • prometheus_973
            Hi Mish, I also want to respond to Ingrid, but am running out of time (lunch date!) so just a few comments to your post. ... comments that Harold threw in from
            Message 5 of 14 , Jul 27 9:07 AM
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              Hi Mish,
              I also want to respond to Ingrid, but am running out of time (lunch
              date!) so just a few comments to your post.

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
              <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:

              >I didn't find anything that was very enlightening except for a few
              comments that Harold threw in from time to time, like, "it would be
              foolish to believe all that I write or say"--he said something to
              that affect. I thought wow, he's right on there, and it seemed to be
              both a disclaimer and a release. In other words, he was telling
              people don't take him seriously or you will be a fool! I think that
              is the best thing he wrote and the most honest he has been.

              Yes, I remember those comments from a Mahanta Transcript, but I
              threw my "Transcripts" away so I can't locate the book number or
              page now. It is interesting that many Eckists hang onto Klemp's
              every word, but also fail to see the truth when HK inadvertly points
              it out to them! Many take his words literally when he has even
              pointed out that they shouldn't.

              >Klemp's stories were very one-sided and judgmental, and he didn't
              seem to grasp the full implications of events, especially from
              another person's perspective--it all fell rather short. It was easy
              to see greater insights, even after he had given his simplistic
              analysis, and this was disappointing to me.

              Klemp's simplistic writings encourage delusional Eckists to fill-in-
              the-blanks and read-between-the-lines. However, this has also gotten
              him into trouble with the goofy behavior displayed by his loyal fan
              club. This is why it finally became necessary to write all of those
              guidelines. But even the guidelines didn't help all that much. It
              then became necessary to write the two Eck Leadership books (and
              workbooks) for HIs and Lows, and to have local Leadership Trainings
              using these books and the Spiritual Skills Seminars! It's a mess
              that happens when deluded people are given power over others because
              everything (locally) is done by volunteers. But, as above so below!

              Prometheus
            • prometheus_973
              Hi Ingrid, I m glad you liked the review, but there s more in Child that I ll have to point out later. The Tom Flamma thing is interesting. I wonder why
              Message 6 of 14 , Jul 27 5:50 PM
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                Hi Ingrid,
                I'm glad you liked the review, but there's more in "Child" that I'll
                have to point out later. The Tom Flamma thing is interesting. I
                wonder why Klemp stopped printing his book "Metaphysics: A Bridge to
                ECKANKAR" since HK seems to have liked and respected Tom?


                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "ctecvie"
                <ctecvie@y...> wrote:
                > First of all, thanks very much for the excellent review,
                Prometheus. Liz is right - you should write reviews on amazon etc.!

                ***What makes you think I haven't? (LOL)

                > He's the 973th LEM, Prometheus! ;-)

                ***In the minds of some he is! Different realities for everyone!

                ***Say, if Sudar Singh was the 970th L.E.M./Mahanta why is it that
                on Eckankar.org in Part 2 "Paul Twitchell the Man," "Looking at the
                Past for Spiritual Lessons," that Sudar is mentioned only four
                times? However, under "Struggle for Mastership" Kirpal Singh is
                mentioned Nine times, and under "Beginnings of Eckankar" Kirpal is
                mentioned Four times! Strange that Kirpal who was Paul's real Master
                was mentioned more than the made up Sudar who is listed in the
                Lexicon as Paul's Master. You see the problem was that Sudar was
                made up in order to invent Rebazar since Paul's real Master (Kirpal)
                outlived him (1974) and is no more an "Eck" master than Twitchell
                was!

                > On another note, I have just finished reading "Non violent
                communication" by Marshall Rosenberg which I found excellent.
                Rosenberg, among other things, says that we should find out what our
                own needs are, and by doing that, develop more understanding towards
                others as well and thus become less judgmental. Rosenberg is a man
                who seems to act as he says - HK could learn a lot from him! For me,
                people like him are much more spiritual than self-appointed masters
                like HK!

                ***Isn't it strange that Klemp met with Gross, two different times,
                to discuss Klemp taking over as the L.E.M. in a Sound Proof Dark
                Room ("Child")! Wasn't this a clue to Klemp that something was
                wrong? Wouldn't this be considered as "Golden Tongued Wisdom" or as
                a "Waking Dream?" But, I guess Klemps obsessive need to become the
                L.E.M. blinded him to all else.

                > And PT didn't have a high "spiritual consciousness" either! So why
                his successor should have?!

                ***True! As long as Klemp limits his contact with others and doesn't
                say too much he is able to maintain the facade as a "Master."

                > > I know that HK got in on the ground floor of the Eckankar
                hierarchy and worked in the Eckankar office to position himself and
                to get noticed early on.

                > He said in his biography that he was in the printing department
                somewhere? The thing is that he never said where that was! He had
                this job with Eckankar! It seems like a fraud to me that he didn't
                say that Eckankar was his employer because we were led to believe
                that he worked somewhere else. I'm sure that many others were held
                in that false belief as well! It shows exactly the person he used to
                be and still is, in my opinion.

                ***Actually, he worked many places as a proofreader, etc. and in
                printing. I also read that he once interviewed for a copywriter or
                proofreader job at the Eckankar office, but was turned down (1970).
                He was in the printing department, but doing photo work too at the
                Eckankar office. This is where he had those secret meetings
                beginning in 1980 with Darwin Gross. HK was also on the Literary
                Council at the Eckankar office and reviewed books and other material
                submitted by Eckists. Yes, Klemp doesn't make it easy to find info
                on him. He skips around a lot and always seems to be hiding things
                like Twitchell did. He's very shifty and not forth coming on even
                his birthdate his divorce or marriage date to Joan. I did find it
                interesting that his father died one month after Twitchell (circa
                Oct. 21, 1971) and that Klemp went to the Eckankar World Wide
                Seminar instead of to his father's funeral! Maybe HK thought he
                would be the next L.E.M. instead of Gross!


                > We all know that critical thinking and common sense are not
                encouraged in Eckankar. Remember the saying "don't criticize, never
                find fault"? PT knew why he said that - and why this is still being
                taught in Eckankar! Just don't question ... I never was comfortable
                with that, I always thought that there had to be a kind of feedback
                because if nobody gives feedback then we never would grow, or much
                slower. There's a kind of positive feedback we can learn, but it
                seems that Eckankar never was interested in that. We all know why by
                now I think!

                ***Yes, Twitch started this because he was coming under fire because
                of things he had written under other pseudonyms. It was catching up
                to him and he also had to do re-writes on things that he had gotten
                wrong because of his hurry to flood the print media with his crap.
                He took some of the things he plagarized out of context and had to
                explain himself. He also changed Kirpal's name to Sudar and didn't
                want to explain this to Eckists. Thus, we have the beginnibgs of
                don't criticize! Later it was changed with a New Age spin of, "Is it
                true, is it necessary, is it kind... these three things I ask myself
                before I speak my mind." Oh, don't forget the "Law of Silence" or
                to "Go Within" for your answers! These work well to keep people from
                asking too many questions that are too revealing of the cult and con.

                Prometheus
              • l2eigh
                ... Hi Prometheus: I think that the reason the book was deep sixed was that it was complete crap. Do you remember it? Do you remember Tom? Talk about egos...
                Message 7 of 14 , Jul 29 1:36 PM
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                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                  <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
                  > Hi Ingrid,
                  > I'm glad you liked the review, but there's more in "Child" that I'll
                  > have to point out later. The Tom Flamma thing is interesting. I
                  > wonder why Klemp stopped printing his book "Metaphysics: A Bridge to
                  > ECKANKAR" since HK seems to have liked and respected Tom?


                  Hi Prometheus:
                  I think that the reason the book was deep sixed was that
                  it was complete crap. Do you remember it? Do you remember Tom? Talk
                  about egos... holy mackeral.
                • Greg and Liz
                  Tom Flamma spoke here in our wee town in MI I believe it was in 1971. He spoke at our community college, and so impressed my mother with his visions and
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jul 29 4:10 PM
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                    Tom Flamma spoke here in our wee town in MI I believe it was in 1971.  He spoke at our community college, and so impressed my mother with his visions and claims of knowing her in a past life, also listing off some of her "important, higher than thou" past lives.   I believe it was Anya Foos (sp?) that spoke with Tom at the talk.    I was just 11 at the time so I wasn't in attendance, but would have been completely mesmerized if given the chance. 
                     
                    Anyway,  Did you know he was nearly blind?  I thought that was interesting at the time, and was impressed that he may not have had very good outer sight but excellent inner sight (what a load of crap!) 
                     
                    I also heard that he left eckankrap before he died, but I could be wrong....   maybe the reason Klump deep sixed the book?  Or maybe it was because he didn't like the fact Tom had more "Master type" experiences and was far more knowledgeable than him!!!!!          

                    l2eigh <lgrif@...> wrote:
                    --- <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
                    > The Tom Flamma thing is interesting. I wonder why Klemp stopped printing his book "Metaphysics: A Bridge to ECKANKAR" since HK seems to have liked and respected Tom?


                    Hi Prometheus:
                                  I think that the reason the book was deep sixed was that it was complete crap. Do you remember it? Do you remember Tom? Talk about egos... holy mackeral.
                  • l2eigh
                    Hi Liz: ...was nearly blind. Yeah, well, he was blind part of his life. Went blind, and then years down the road his sight came back. Although, as you say,
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jul 30 11:59 AM
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                      Hi Liz:
                      ...was nearly blind. Yeah, well, he was blind part of his
                      life. Went blind, and then years down the road his sight came back.
                      Although, as you say, needed help with corrective lenses (glasses).
                      He had a lot of stories about himself, what he had experienced and
                      why. As a person, he was just a person to me, but I couldn't get
                      anywhere near the idea of him as an authority figure, knowledgable,
                      with knowledge that could be relied on. He was something of a cult
                      figure within himself, in his own right. I mean, he had groupies who
                      thought he was the greatest thing... His "book" wasn't published for
                      some time after he died. The manuscript went to Eckankar and for a
                      long time it just held onto it, kept it. At one point I wrote in to
                      ask if they were ever going to publish it. I was curious as to what
                      it would say. Eventually the decision was to publish it. I think... I
                      don't know why. As to leaving Eckankar... I don't think so. Not so
                      long before his death he was made one of the first ever eighth
                      initiates. Then, as I say, his "book" went from his estate to
                      Eckankar. I have to say I found him an "interesting" person. (A
                      little qualification there because he was a little too wild and far
                      out (a lot, really) for me.)

                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Greg and Liz
                      <whitefeatherliz@y...> wrote:
                      > Tom Flamma spoke here in our wee town in MI I believe it was in
                      1971. He spoke at our community college, and so impressed my mother
                      with his visions and claims of knowing her in a past life, also
                      listing off some of her "important, higher than thou" past lives. I
                      believe it was Anya Foos (sp?) that spoke with Tom at the talk. I
                      was just 11 at the time so I wasn't in attendance, but would have
                      been completely mesmerized if given the chance.
                      >
                      > Anyway, Did you know he was nearly blind? I thought that was
                      interesting at the time, and was impressed that he may not have had
                      very good outer sight but excellent inner sight (what a load of
                      crap!)
                      >
                      > I also heard that he left eckankrap before he died, but I could be
                      wrong.... maybe the reason Klump deep sixed the book? Or maybe it
                      was because he didn't like the fact Tom had more "Master type"
                      experiences and was far more knowledgeable than him!!!!!
                      >
                      > l2eigh <lgrif@m...> wrote:
                      > --- <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
                      > > The Tom Flamma thing is interesting. I wonder why Klemp stopped
                      printing his book "Metaphysics: A Bridge to ECKANKAR" since HK seems
                      to have liked and respected Tom?
                      >
                      >
                      > Hi Prometheus:
                      > I think that the reason the book was deep sixed was
                      that it was complete crap. Do you remember it? Do you remember Tom?
                      Talk about egos... holy mackeral.
                    • prometheus_973
                      Hi L2eigh, Actually, it was long ago that I had first read the book, and that s why I d like to re-read it knowing what I know now. I m sure you re right that
                      Message 10 of 14 , Aug 2, 2005
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                        Hi L2eigh,

                        Actually, it was long ago that I had first read the book, and that's
                        why I'd like to re-read it knowing what I know now. I'm sure you're
                        right that it's "crap" and I'm sure Flamma did have quite the ego!

                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "l2eigh"
                        <lgrif@m...> wrote:

                        > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                        > <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
                        > > Hi Ingrid,
                        I'm glad you liked the review, but there's more in "Child" that I'll
                        have to point out later. The Tom Flamma thing is interesting. I
                        wonder why Klemp stopped printing his book "Metaphysics: A Bridge to
                        ECKANKAR" since HK seems to have liked and respected Tom?


                        > Hi Prometheus:
                        I think that the reason the book was deep sixed was that
                        it was complete crap. Do you remember it? Do you remember Tom? Talk
                        about egos... holy mackeral.
                      • prometheus_973
                        Hi Liz, Yes I believe that her name was An(it)ya Foos. Remember that book of Paul s Anitya, Coins of Gold? Now, that was real crap! Prometheus ... 1971. He
                        Message 11 of 14 , Aug 2, 2005
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                          Hi Liz,

                          Yes I believe that her name was An(it)ya Foos. Remember that book of
                          Paul's "Anitya, Coins of Gold?" Now, that was real crap!

                          Prometheus


                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Greg and Liz
                          <whitefeatherliz@y...> wrote:
                          > Tom Flamma spoke here in our wee town in MI I believe it was in
                          1971. He spoke at our community college, and so impressed my mother
                          with his visions and claims of knowing her in a past life, also
                          listing off some of her "important, higher than thou" past lives.
                          I believe it was Anya Foos (sp?) that spoke with Tom at the talk.
                          I was just 11 at the time so I wasn't in attendance, but would have
                          been completely mesmerized if given the chance.

                          > Anyway, Did you know he was nearly blind? I thought that was
                          interesting at the time, and was impressed that he may not have had
                          very good outer sight but excellent inner sight (what a load of
                          crap!)

                          > I also heard that he left eckankrap before he died, but I could be
                          wrong.... maybe the reason Klump deep sixed the book? Or maybe it
                          was because he didn't like the fact Tom had more "Master type"
                          experiences and was far more knowledgeable than him!!!!!
                        • ctecvie
                          Hi Prometheus, ... Yes, we had that at home - I don t think I ever read it! When we left, it took the way all other eck books took - right into the trash can!
                          Message 12 of 14 , Aug 2, 2005
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                            Hi Prometheus,

                            > Yes I believe that her name was An(it)ya Foos. Remember that book of
                            > Paul's "Anitya, Coins of Gold?" Now, that was real crap!

                            Yes, we had that at home - I don't think I ever read it! When we left,
                            it took the way all other eck books took - right into the trash can! :-
                            )

                            Ingrid
                          • l2eigh
                            Hi Prometheus: Actually the Anitya (however it s spelled) was written by Helen Baird, or at least illustrated by her. Coins of Gold was something else. Poetry
                            Message 13 of 14 , Aug 2, 2005
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                              Hi Prometheus:
                              Actually the Anitya (however it's spelled) was written
                              by Helen Baird, or at least illustrated by her. Coins of Gold was
                              something else. Poetry Paul wrote years pre-Eckankar, self-published,
                              and sent around to various places. One was still in the University of
                              New Mexico Library in the mid '70s and the last time I checked on it
                              on-line it was still there. Sort of a golden yellow booklet with a
                              black inked cover illustration of an open pitate's chest full of
                              coins on a tiny island with a palm tree.



                              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                              <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
                              > Hi Liz,
                              >
                              > Yes I believe that her name was An(it)ya Foos. Remember that book
                              of
                              > Paul's "Anitya, Coins of Gold?" Now, that was real crap!
                              >
                              > Prometheus
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Greg and Liz
                              > <whitefeatherliz@y...> wrote:
                              > > Tom Flamma spoke here in our wee town in MI I believe it was in
                              > 1971. He spoke at our community college, and so impressed my
                              mother
                              > with his visions and claims of knowing her in a past life, also
                              > listing off some of her "important, higher than thou" past lives.
                              > I believe it was Anya Foos (sp?) that spoke with Tom at the
                              talk.
                              > I was just 11 at the time so I wasn't in attendance, but would have
                              > been completely mesmerized if given the chance.
                              >
                              > > Anyway, Did you know he was nearly blind? I thought that was
                              > interesting at the time, and was impressed that he may not have had
                              > very good outer sight but excellent inner sight (what a load of
                              > crap!)
                              >
                              > > I also heard that he left eckankrap before he died, but I could
                              be
                              > wrong.... maybe the reason Klump deep sixed the book? Or maybe
                              it
                              > was because he didn't like the fact Tom had more "Master type"
                              > experiences and was far more knowledgeable than him!!!!!
                            • prometheus_973
                              Hi L2eigh, I m sure you re correct about those crappy poems by Twitch in, Coins of Gold. This book was also sold at seminars and Eck centers and my copy was
                              Message 14 of 14 , Aug 4, 2005
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                                Hi L2eigh,

                                I'm sure you're correct about those crappy poems by Twitch
                                in, "Coins of Gold." This book was also sold at seminars and Eck
                                centers and my copy was tossed or lost years ago.

                                It could be that Helen Baird (I miss her!) did the illustrations in
                                the book "Anitya," but Twitchell is given credit for having written
                                the book. And, it is interesting how PT came up with the title isn't
                                it! Anya Foos = An(It)ya = "Anitya"

                                Prometheus


                                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "l2eigh"
                                <lgrif@m...> wrote:
                                > Hi Prometheus:
                                >Actually the Anitya (however it's spelled) was written by Helen
                                Baird, or at least illustrated by her. Coins of Gold was something
                                else. Poetry Paul wrote years pre-Eckankar, self-published, and sent
                                around to various places. One was still in the University of New
                                Mexico Library in the mid '70s and the last time I checked on it on-
                                line it was still there. Sort of a golden yellow booklet with a
                                black inked cover illustration of an open pitate's chest full of
                                coins on a tiny island with a palm tree.

                                > --- In
                                EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                                > <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
                                > > Hi Liz,
                                Yes I believe that her name was An(it)ya Foos. Remember that book
                                of Paul's "Anitya, Coins of Gold?" Now, that was real crap!

                                > > Prometheus
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