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Re: Mark: We [ECKists] Are The White-Haired [Old] Ladies & Were Ducks

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  • mishmisha9
    Hi, Liz! You re correct about Twitchell exhibiting the characteristics of someone suffering from mythomania, and thanks for adding the info about this illness.
    Message 1 of 11 , Nov 5, 2007
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      Hi, Liz!

      You're correct about Twitchell exhibiting the characteristics
      of someone suffering from mythomania, and thanks for
      adding the info about this illness. But the unbalances are
      significantly different with Klemp who seems to have a
      mixture of more than one. Additionally, Klemp also lacks the
      charisma that Twitchell had and which is probably why
      so many old time eckists, from Twitchell's day, lament
      so much about the teachings and continue to embrace the
      older writings of Twitchell's rather than resonating as
      well with Klemp's.

      Klemp's focus on bathroom use seems to resemble his
      airport behavior of disrobing--something is wrong with him.
      As for unisex bathrooms--yes, they do exist and are
      properly marked, sometimes actually saying "family." These
      are usually situated by themselves. In other words, a unisex
      bathroom would not be located next to a men's bathroom or
      women's bathroom or by both. And a unisex will have a lock
      on the door as it accommodates one person at a time, so
      how Klemp could possibly have thought an unlocked
      women's restroom equated to unisex is wrong thinking and
      seems a perversion for him to think he could enter such an
      unlocked bathroom, confront the white haired lady and act
      as though she was thinking wrong??? I believe that if he
      continues to push his way into women's bathrooms because
      he can't hold his urine a few minutes longer (which might
      suggest a medical problem for both him and Joan?), that he
      will eventually run into some trouble. Bathrooms are privacy
      rooms and these two nutters, Klemp and Joan are intruding.
      Their world must be awfully small for them to focus on such
      behavior and equate it to some sort of spiritually uplifting
      experience. Additionally, from some of the other posts that
      eckists are writing in response to Klemp's bathroom story, it
      seems that these gullible and easily manipulated chelas are
      are now smiling and humming hu when using public restrooms--
      especially if they find one that is not marked either or! LOL!
      Even one eckist posted that she had a bathroom experience
      after the talk-- accidentally going into the men's room
      where men were standing at urinals. She thought it was both
      funny, and spiritual! LOL!

      Klemp's feeble attempt of using public bathrooms to promote
      a unisex consciousness is just his lack luster way of trying to
      pave the way for Joan into a higher position in the eck org--to
      validate his plan to position her next to him in authority. He has
      written in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters" that the time is right for
      more female eck masters to reveal themselves. He also wrote in
      this book a couple chela dream stories depicting Joan assisting chelas
      in connecting with Klemp, which he also explains in his book is
      a function of eck masters--helping people to connect with the
      mahanta. It seems that Klemp is moving forward with his plans
      to secure Joan in a bigger and more important role in the org.
      Chelas are now debating what it means concerning male vs
      female--so phase one of operation co-l.e.m. is now in action.
      Klemp is proceeding with his plans. He is doing for Joan what
      Twitchell failed to do for Gail. It is Klemp's way of holding the
      power as long as he can and assure that his books and writings will
      not hit the dumpsters as happened with Darwin Gross! But in the
      end, no matter what Klemp does, what will happen to his legacy
      will be out of his control. If eckankar survives beyond Klemp, I
      predict that much of Klemp's crap will be discarded as chelas
      cleanse themselves of the insane delusion and brainwashing Klemp
      has inflicted upon them. : )

      Mish



      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
      "Elizabeth" <ewickings@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Mish wrote:
      > One has to wonder where eckankar would be today if
      > Klemp had never been put in that power position. Even
      > though Twitchell lied about the origins of the teachings
      > and plagiarized heavily, it doesn't seem that Twitchell
      > was mentally unbalanced as Klemp is.
      >
      > *** Actually I thought Twitch was mentally ill as well, he was just so
      > convincing in his story and lies that it sounded more believable.
      >
      >
      > The Nature of Mythomania
      >
      >
      > The following definition is the most comprehensive in describing this
      > phenomenon:
      >
      > Pathological lying is falsification entirely disproportionate to any
      > discernible end in view engaged in by a person who at the time of
      > observation cannot definitely be declared insane feebleminded or epileptic.
      > Such lying rarely if ever centers about a single event although exhibited in
      > very occasional cases for a short timeit manifests itself most frequently by
      > far over a period of years or even a lifetime. It represents a trait rather
      > than an episode. Extensivevery complicated fabrications may be evolved. This
      > has led to the synonyms: mythomania pseudologia phantastica.5
      >
      > William and Mary Healy offered this definition in their respected study on
      > the subject. This book is significant for its recognition of the need to
      > look at the pathological liar as a special category of psychological
      > phenomenon. They wrote:
      >
      > A clear terminology should be adopted. The pathological liar forms a species
      > by himself and as such does not necessarily belong to any of these larger
      > classes.6
      >
      > A. Delbrücka late nineteenth-century German psychiatrist conducted the
      > earliest studies of this condition. He coined the term "pseudologia
      > phantastica" later adopted by other writers on the subject. Delbrück's work
      > provided early warnings of the harm such liars cause to families and society
      > in general by their falsifications and deceit. During this same period
      > another German psychiatristKoppencontributed to the analysis of the
      > pathological liar and the nature of the lies he told:
      >
      > The pathological lie is active in character a whole sequence of experiences
      > is fabricated and the products of fancy brought forward with a certainty
      > that is astonishing. The possibility that the untruth may be at any minute
      > demolished does not abash the liar in the least. Remonstrances against the
      > lies make no impression. On closer inspection we find that the liar is no
      > longer free he has ceased to be master of his own lies the lie has won power
      > over himit has the worth of a real experience. In the final stages of the
      > pathological lie it cannot be differentiated from delusion.7
      >
      > In an excellent and comprehensive 1997 compilation on mythomaniaits editor
      > asserts:
      >
      > Deception and truth are polar opposites on a continuum with various degrees
      > of departure from blatant dishonesty to unbending truth. A small dose of
      > duplicity may interfere little with family and social duties. . . . It may
      > either pass unnoticed or receive endorsement within a culturally stipulated
      > range of conduct. By contrast some flagrant falsities that violate cultural
      > codes by their ineptitude absurdity or extravagance . . . Have long
      > attracted the attention of the medical profession.8
      >
      > Another closely related condition is " megalomania:"
      >
      > A psycho pathological condition in which delusional fantasies of wealth
      > poweror omnipotence predominate an obsession with grandiose or extravagant
      > things or actions.9
      >
      > In an elaboration of pseudologia phantasticaBernard Risch in 1908 noted
      > several important characteristics of pathological liars. He observed that
      > they typically had mental processes similar to those with literary gifts.
      > The same passion and creativity found in novelists poets and playwrights are
      > found in pathological liars. Both are able to forget who what and where they
      > are and create a new and often convincing reality. The difference however is
      > that the artist is creating this reality within a socially acceptable
      > context: we know it is his art to fabricate a reality of sorts for our
      > entertainment. But the pathological liar is an artist without a
      > socially-valued talent his audiences are unaware of their roles in his works
      > He plies his art to whomever he meets or to whoever reads his creation. He
      > does not distinguish art from reality and wants us to believe that they are
      > one and the same.
      >
      > Does the Shoe Fit Paul Twitchell? I found that Ford Johnson has listed
      > several chapters from his book "Confessions" for those to read concerning
      > Twit and Eckankrap: http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/Excerpts.asp
      >
      >
      >
      > Anyway, I'm catching up on all of the interesting messages concerning the
      > EWWS, and this Unisex bathroom topic.... If a bathroom is in fact Unisex,
      > it will state it right on the front door. Usually only one toilet is
      > available, and there is a lock on the door to keep perverts like Klemp out!
      > Maybe Klemp and his FLEM have gender identity issues of their own, and wish
      > to bring this out of the closet via the toilet story.... Klemp is really
      > a female trapped in a male body, and Joan is a man trapped in a female body?
      > Looks like the rolls of LEM and FLEM are being slowly reversed and
      > introduced to the members. <wink wink>
      >
      > Mish and Prometheus has been right all along about these two lunatics!
      >
    • prometheus_973
      Isn t it true that ECKists are told: A Miracle Is A Changed Consciousness? Klemp stated that he changed the White Haired Lady s Consciousness, therefore, he
      Message 2 of 11 , Nov 10, 2007
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        Isn't it true that ECKists are told: A Miracle Is
        A Changed Consciousness? Klemp stated that he
        "changed" the White Haired Lady's Consciousness,
        therefore, he created A Miracle! If only she knew!

        Isn't it interesting that Klemp doesn't define "Miracle"
        in his Lexicon! WHY Not? HK defines "consciousness"
        but does Not mention "miracles" or "change!" Instead,
        Klemp mentions the "Dhyanic" and "ECK" consciousness
        (pg.32) but only defines Dhyan and Dhyana (pg.47)
        and Not the ECK Consciousness! Also, Dhyan and Dhyana
        only refers to seeing the LEM or Master on the Inner
        Planes versus seeing or meeting the Mahanta on the Inner!


        [BTW - I GOOGLED: A Miracle is a Changed Consciousness
        and found this (below). It's kind of interesting... WHY can't
        Klemp come up with something like this? Didn't Klemp (the
        LEM/Mahanta) get into the International Who's Who of
        Intellectuals via "writing" dozens of books (and paying a
        fee)? So, WHY didn't Klemp come up with a book like this
        instead of running into a Women's Restroom and declaring
        "Restrooms are Unisex!"]

        Prometheus

        *****************************************************
        Make Your Own Miracle

        Miracles don't happen to you; they happen through
        you. An astonishing new book, Shortcut to a Miracle,
        reveals how to get from where you are... to where
        you've barely dared to dream about going.

        Ever noticed how the things you want most seem a
        billion light years away? Perhaps you wait tables but
        dream of performing oon Broadway. Or you've tried
        to have a baby for years but pregnancy eludes you.
        Or you long to meet your Soul Mate but figure that
        at the age of 65, you're doomed to spend your (so-called)
        Golden Years alone. Whatever your "impossible dream"
        might be, reaching it would take a miracle. And since
        you don't believe in miracles--or at least you don't
        believe one's coming your way--you've pretty much
        resigned yourself to a life of back-breaking, low-paying
        work . . . or childlessness . . . or lonely bachhelorhood.

        Don't give up yet. Spiritual counselors Michael C. Rann
        and Elizabeth Rann Arrott say that not only is your miracle
        possible, it is your birthright. In their new book Shortcut
        to a Miracle: How to Change Your Consciousness and
        Transform Your Life (Jeffers Press, September 2005,
        ISBN: 0-9745776-8-5, $14.95), they build a convincing
        case that you can experience your own miracles by working
        with some astonishing natural principles that scientists
        are just beginning to understand.



        "Most people think that a miracle is an event that
        runs counter to the laws of nature and that is 'bestowed'
        from above," say Rann and Arrott. "That's misleading.
        Miracles are perfectly natural. They are results of the
        Universe working the way it's intended to work. Furthermore,
        the person we think of as the recipient of a miracle is actually
        the co-creator of that miracle. We are wired for miracles.
        All we have to do is learn how to help them unfold."

        To provide a foundation for their assertion, the
        authors delve into the staggering new science of
        quantum physics. The very characteristics of the quantum
        world suggest that there is no separation, no dividing
        line between consciousness (thought) and physical form
        or manifestation. We are one with the Universe and part
        of it. We actually participate in its operation--and it
        responds to us.

        In other words, in tandem with the Power and Intelligence
        that created the Universe, you actually co-create your
        own reality.

        All thought is creative, both positive thought and
        negative thought. The key to having miracles manifest
        in your life is to know that miracles can happen, and
        they can happen for you. It's that simple--but the authors
        admit that simple and easy are not synonymous. (If they
        were, everyone would be living rich, rewarding, happy
        lives.) To change your life, you must change the way
        you think. That requires discipline and practice.

        Shortcut to a Miracle outlines what you can do to create
        your miracle, and supports its assertions with dozens
        of real-life stories about those who have found success
        using the principles the authors set forth. Here are just
        a few insights from the book:

        Adopt the Miracle-Making Attitude. The frame of
        mind that allows miracles to unfold is comprised of
        five elements. Doubt in any one of these areas can
        have a negative impact on the manifestation of your
        miracle:

        1. Miracles unfold according to Universal Law. Begin
        right now to know that miracles do not happen by
        chance. They are no more random or capricious than,
        for example, the Law of Gravity that holds the universe
        together.

        2. Your miracle is possible. Any time you question
        whether the miracle you desire is possible, think about
        this awesome universe, and ask yourself if the
        incomprehensible Intelligence and Power responsible
        for creating this universe isn't far more than enough
        to also bring into your life whatever it is that you need
        or desire.

        3. Your miracle is never too big. You may wonder
        whether what you want or think you need is "too big."
        It is not too big! Ralph Waldo Emerson said it best,
        "There is no large or small to the Soul that maketh all."

        4. You play a major role in bringing about your
        miracle. You may wonder, "If it can happen, do
        I have any part in making it happen, or allowing
        it to happen?" Yes. It happens through you, not to
        you. Your part has to do with your belief, and your
        belief is the result of your thinking.

        5. You deserve miracles in your life. The final
        question you may have is, "Do I deserve to have
        something this good happen?" The answer is an
        unqualified yes! You deserve miracles because
        the Power and the Intelligence that created the
        universe also created you to live and enjoy life
        as fully and completely as you choose.

        Stop "squirrel caging." What is squirrel caging?
        It's a form of negative habitual thinking when
        you go over the same thing in your mind repeatedly
        --again and again--around and around and around.
        (Think of a squirrel running in a paddle-wheel-type
        cage, getting nowhere.) TThe three areas where people
        tend to squirrel cage are:

        when we feel wronged or insulted when we make a
        mistake or otherwise embarrass ourselves when we
        take a strong dislike to someone and begin mentally
        criticizing everything they do.

        Understand that when you begin squirrel caging,
        you are actually blocking your miracle. A simple,
        direct statement that helps many people to stop
        squirrel caging is, "I don't need that anymore."
        This statement stops the cycle and allows normal
        thinking to resume. Then you can begin to take charge
        of your thinking by focusing on what you want--
        your miracle--instead of what you don't want.

        Understand the 51 percent rule. One of the biggest
        impediments to having a miracle in your life is the
        fear that you might not get the miracle that you
        desire. We water down our Miracle-Making Attitude
        with thoughts like: "What if I don't get another job
        and I lose the house?" "What if the diagnosis is positive?"
        "What if . . ." "What if . . ." It goes on and on.

        It's important not to back off from what you want
        because you're afraid you might not get it. Think of
        faith and fear as being opposite ends of the same
        continuum. The more afraid we are of some future
        event, the more fearful we become. The greater
        our expectancy of good, however, the stronger
        our faith. The important point is that we don't
        need 100 percent faith--all we need is 51 percent
        faith, and our lives begin to turn in the right direction.

        Don't be discouraged if things appear to get
        worse before they get better. Paradoxically, it's
        not uncommon for a positive change in our lives
        to be preceded by a chaotic period in which a
        number of unsettling things take place. When
        you have begun the mental and emotional process
        that allows a miracle to move into your life, you
        will experience a clearing in consciousness. This
        process often involves the shifting around of many
        things and many patterns in your life. It actually
        ties in with what is known in quantum physics as
        chaos theory. Just remember that, no matter what
        it looks like, beneath any chaotic appearance lies
        order and harmony. Stay focused on your miracle
        and not on unfavorable circumstances.

        Ultimately, say Rann and Arrott, the more you
        align your thinking with what you want, the more
        fully empowered you become, and the more transformed
        your life becomes.

        "The wonderful truth is that in the process of getting
        your miracle, you're opening the door to other miracles,"
        they assert. "When you work toward a miracle in one
        area of your life--your health for instance--you actually
        lay the groundwork for miracles in the other areas,
        namely, prosperity, success, and relationships."

        "You will discover a whole new life that's richer, fuller,
        and more abundant than you ever thought possible,"
        the authors add. "Even your problems become steppingstones
        rather than obstacles. If it sounds too good to be true,
        I assure you that it is not. I've seen it happen again
        and again. Start today. You will find that you are
        supported in your choice by a loving Presence that
        provides--without question and all the time--all you
        could ever want or need."

        Spiritual counselors Michael C. Rann and Elizabeth Rann
        Arrott have spent more than sixty years, combined, examining
        the laws of miracles, their operation and application. This
        groundbreaking book is the culmination of their lifework.
        Michael is director of the Science of Mind Center in Chicago.
        Elizabeth is director of the Science of Mind Center in Evanston,
        Illinois.
        *****************************************************

        misha wrote:
        >
        >
        > For those of you wondering what great pearls of wisdom came out
        > of Klemp's recent talk at the eckankar world wide seminar, Mark
        > Alexander has shared some of his impressions of
        > Klemp's speak, calling it "The Living Word." BTW, I find Mark's babbling
        > to be more of his own discomfort in what Klemp said--that he, too,
        > must have been troubled by Klemp's message just as well as the eckists
        > who came up to him afterwards questioning some of Klemp's remarks.
        >
        > Before reading Mark's post, here's few of my thoughts on what he shared.
        >
        > 1. The bathroom story seems recycled as I read something similar in one
        > of Klemp's transcripts years ago . . . unless Klemp still has a thing about
        > bathrooms. It's odd he is directing chelas to do some vahana work in public
        > restrooms now! Personally the whole bathroom talk, Unisex comments,
        > raising a white haired lady's consciousness, etc. is really quite
        > weird--but what can one expect from a guy who disrobed in an airport.
        > Klemp was out of balance then, and he still is out of balance!
        >
        > 2. It seems too that he doesn't like women, especially white haired ones!
        > I have to wonder if he loved his mother--or he wouldn't so easily put down
        > an older woman who reacted naturally "shocked" when he entered a women's
        > restroom. Too bad security wasn't called on Klemp for doing this--
        > maybe, he needs another time out in a mental institution since it doesn't
        > appear he was cured from his mental unbalance and inappropriate behavior
        > the first time. Telling chelas on such a large stage that he sometimes tells
        > Joan to quit talking at home, is really arrogant and disrespectful of the one
        > he should love and treasure the most--he certainly is displaying male
        > chauvinismand unloving behavior. Yeah,Klemp talks about a unisex society
        > but yet the male is still dominant! LOL! I think that Klemp inviting Joan to
        > share the stage with him, singing her little song, elevated her, but he also
        > kept her in a subordinate role. Yep, she'll help him keep the power, but he
        > will still run the show! So, much for equal footing--male/ female! Klemp is
        > working hard to position Joan as a co-l.e.m. but yet he isn't making it
        > equal! But it is fun to watch his game. I suppose he doesn't want another
        > replay like Gail naming Twitchell's replacement- -Klemp would like it to
        > look more legitimate the next time, in case something happens to him
        > suddenly! : )
        >
        > Anyway . . . on HuChat, Mark wrote:

        > "I always listen to Harold's talk
        > as if they were Living Shariyat dreams to be decoded or as
        > ECK-Vidya tapestries that have an inherent & unity and integration.
        > Sometimes I think people forget that Harold is not just telling stories
        > to get a chuckle, that there is a literal Mahanta wave of meaning and
        > communication going on that penetrates deeper than what is actually
        > being said when read in transcript. First of all, he's always talking about
        > us, the ECK initiates, in one way or another. So in that context, WE are
        > the white-haired lady in the women's restroom that Harold talked about.
        >
        > Remember when we used to be ducks? ("I moved the food over here, but
        > the ducks stayed where they were. I told them the food had moved and
        > that they would starve if they didn' t move, but they just stayed in the
        > same place, looking for the food that wasn't there." Remember parables?
        > Even true stories are parables, especially when they involve Harold and Joan.)
        > In the restroom story (abbreviated version), Harold and Joan were shopping.
        > Joan went to the restroom, found a white-haired lady waiting for the
        > Women's room. The Men's room was not occupied, so Joan asked the
        > lady why she didn't use it. The women said that it was for men only. Harold
        > said that he and Joan have a policy of using "any port in the storm. " So Joan
        > went into the Men's room. Meanwhile, Harold comes along looking for a
        > restroom, finds the Men's room locked, so he tries the Women's room. It's
        > unlocked, he enters, and of course the white-haired lady is there. She looks at
        > him shocked. "But this is the Women's room!" she says. Harold says as
        > far as he's concerned the restrooms are Unisex. He mused that he wondered
        > at how the ECK used him to change the state of conciousness of the
        > white-haired woman.
        >
        > This story puts a cap on a particularly nice Living Word aspect of this talk.
        > I've seen on many occasions how Harold will say something that will tweak
        > the human consciousness (political or social or eck-related) , then in the same
        > talk there would be a story that addresses what he tweaks. This is how the
        > Living Word works. Earlier in his talk when Joan was singing, she got a little
        > lost in singing the complete song and so it went on longer than it should
        > have. Harold made a comment about her going on like that, and how
        > sometimes at home he would have to say something if she talks too long.
        > It was a very male/female comment. One that tweaked the human
        > consciousness of some ECKists. I had some come up to me and ask me
        > my opinion of it. Did I think Harold was being unkind to Joan? It bothered
        > them. I explained what I have here. That the Mahanta as the Living Word will
        > often say something that tweaks the human consciousness and then tie it
        > up later in a story. Not that this was planned. It's just the way of the ECK to
        > work like this. The Living Word.
        >
        > So here we have Harold tweaking us on the male/female thing and then
        > later tells us a story that tries to remind us not to get stuck in
        > male/ female categories. That they are fine, but we should not be like
        > the white-haired lady, stuck in one or the other. We should be thinking
        > Unisex, SOUL, beyond the categories. Change is Change (the title of the talk).
        > Harold's story about the song Joan sang and going back to the ORIGINAL
        > song reminds us that the human consciousness likes to change things. If
        > you sing the song I posted separately, you may notice that your human
        > consciousness wants to change it. But as it is, it offers a sublime "spaciousness"
        > that the mind would wrongly fill. Singing it the original way offers sublime
        > transport that the changes would destroy. Furthermore, these worlds of
        > categories complicate things with male/ female categories. The role of the
        > Mahanta is to offer the "simplifying" change of going & back to the original,
        > the Word, the HU, the path of ECK that first leads us to Soul then to God
        > through the Mahanta. He is the agent of change sent by the ECK into our
        > bathroom to tweak us out of our stuck, white-haired old lady views.
        > My opinion. Your mileage may vary. Hu Mark_"
        >
        > I especially love the way Mark summed this all up in his last paragraph!
        > Too funny! Klemp is the agent of change going into all and every public
        > bathroom regardless of them being for women or men--by golly, Klemp
        > is going in there and making changes . . . and his chelas are embracing this
        > idea as they too want to help with the change that obviously can be started
        > in such a basic and fundalmental places as restrooms. Hey, just remember
        > if the opposite gender comes into the restroom you are using, don't be
        > alarmed--it' s not any nut or pervert, it's just a nutty, possibly perverted
        > eckist! So much for those special, elevated spiritual teachings! : )
        >
        > Mish
        >
      • prometheus_973
        In the 12/2007 Mystic World Sharon Kunin s article is Damage Control for Klemp s 2007 EWWS RESTROOMS ARE UNISEX comments! Sharon s article begins on page 1
        Message 3 of 11 , Dec 23, 2007
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          In the 12/2007 Mystic World Sharon Kunin's
          article is Damage Control for Klemp's 2007
          EWWS "RESTROOMS ARE UNISEX" comments!

          Sharon's article begins on page 1 and is titled,
          "A Year of Blessing." On page 7 Sharon states
          that Klemp walked into the women's restroom
          where:

          "... he (HK) encountered a very alarmed
          white-haired woman standing at the sink.
          Excusing himself, Sri Harold returned to the
          men's room just as Joan emerged..."

          Now how does this... Oh! er excuse me madame!
          "Change" her consciousness? What happened to
          "Restrooms Are Unisex!"

          Or, did HK follow the Law of Silence and whispered
          or whimpered to himself, under his breath, Restrooms
          Should Be (are) Unisex Damnit! I Have Spoken!!!
          Maybe Klemp only shared his thoughts of what he
          wanted to say to that "Alarmed" white-haired woman?
          Maybe it was all made-up and he lied that he had said
          anything.

          Maybe this is what Sharon is really pointing out. Klemp
          lied to ECKists at the 2007 EWWS and never told that
          woman that Restrooms Are Unisex!

          I guess that the Holocaust didn't happen either!

          Or maybe, the Klemp's, the ESC and RESA Police
          are trying to re-write ECKANKAR History with this
          Damage Control! Almost everyone was embarrassed
          by Klemp's stupid comments and this generated
          a reaction of mass disapproval by the more sane ECKists!

          Although HK is out-of-control the EK Board can't
          do anything about it like they did with Gross! They
          allowed Klemp to restructure things giving himself
          sole authority. Too bad so sad! But what goes around
          comes around... that's karma isn't it?! LOL!

          I wonder what ECKists are thinking about this
          rewrite by Sharon Kunin which was approved
          of by both Joan and Harold? Do they think that
          this will make things better or that HK's nutty
          comments will all go away? I'll bet the tape of
          that talk gets edited along with the written version
          of it in the next Mahanta Transcripts!

          If there wasn't anything to hide (change)...
          Why Are They Doing This?!

          Let's just "change" Truth into Fiction... this seems
          to be the ECKANKAR way of viewing life! Or, maybe
          ECKists like Mark just "imagined" they saw and heard
          the Mahanta when it was actually the KAL!

          Prometheus
          p.s. HK's comments to Joan to "hush-up" weren't
          appreciated either by ECKists!


          On HuChat, Mark Alexander wrote:

          "I always listen to Harold's talk as if they were Living
          Shariyat dreams... Sometimes I think people forget that
          Harold is not just telling stories to get a chuckle, that
          there is a literal Mahanta... WE are the white-haired lady
          in the women's restroom that Harold talked about...

          Even true stories are parables, especially when they involve
          Harold and Joan.

          In the restroom story (abbreviated version), Harold and
          Joan were shopping. Joan went to the restroom, found a
          white-haired lady waiting for the Women's room. The Men's
          room was not occupied, so Joan asked the lady why she
          didn't use it. The women said that it was for men only.

          Harold said that he and Joan have a policy of using
          'any port in the storm.' So Joan went into the Men's room.
          Meanwhile, Harold comes along looking for a restroom,
          finds the Men's room locked, so he tries the Women's room.
          It's unlocked, he enters, and of course the white-haired lady
          is there. She looks at him shocked. 'But this is the Women's room!'
          she says.

          HAROLD SAYS AS FAR AS HE'S CONCERNED THE RESTROOMS
          ARE UNISEX. HE MUSED THAT HE WONDERED AT HOW THE
          ECK USED HIM TO CHANGE THE STATE OF CONSCIOUSNESS
          OF THE WHITE-HAIRED WOMAN.

          This story puts a cap on a particularly nice Living Word
          aspect of this talk. I've seen on many occasions how Harold
          will say something that will tweak the human consciousness
          (political or social or eck-related) , then in the same talk there
          would be a story that addresses what he tweaks. This is how the
          Living Word works.

          Earlier in his talk when Joan was singing, she got a little
          lost in singing the complete song and so it went on longer
          than it should have. Harold made a comment about her
          going on like that, and how sometimes at home he would
          have to say something if she talks too long. It was a very male/
          female comment...

          So here we have Harold tweaking us on the male/female
          thing and then later tells us a story that tries to remind us
          not to get stuck in male/ female categories. That they are fine,
          but we should not be like the white-haired lady, stuck in one
          or the other. We should be thinking Unisex, SOUL, beyond
          the categories. Change is Change (the title of the talk)... the
          Mahanta. He is the agent of change sent by the ECK into our
          bathroom to tweak us out of our stuck, white-haired old lady
          views. My opinion. Your mileage may vary. Hu Mark_"


          misha wrote:

          For those of you wondering what great pearls of wisdom
          came out of Klemp's recent talk at the eckankar world wide
          seminar, Mark Alexander has shared some of his impressions
          of Klemp's speak, calling it "The Living Word." BTW, I find
          Mark's babbling to be more of his own discomfort in what
          Klemp said--that he, too, must have been troubled by Klemp's
          message just as well as the eckists who came up to him afterwards
          questioning some of Klemp's remarks.
          > >
          here's few of my thoughts on what he shared.
          > >

          1. The bathroom story seems recycled as I read something
          similar in one of Klemp's transcripts years ago . . . unless
          Klemp still has a thing about bathrooms. It's odd he is directing
          chelas to do some vahana work in public restrooms now!

          Personally the whole bathroom talk, Unisex comments,
          raising a white haired lady's consciousness, etc. is really
          quite weird--but what can one expect from a guy who
          disrobed in an airport. Klemp was out of balance then, and
          he still is out of balance!
          > >

          2. It seems too that he doesn't like women, especially white
          haired ones! I have to wonder if he loved his mother--or he
          wouldn't so easily put down an older woman who reacted naturally
          "shocked" when he entered a women's restroom. Too bad security
          wasn't called on Klemp for doing this--maybe, he needs another
          time out in a mental institution since it doesn't appear he was
          cured from his mental unbalance and inappropriate behavior
          the first time.

          Telling chelas on such a large stage that he sometimes tells
          Joan to quit talking at home, is really arrogant and disrespectful
          of the one he should love and treasure the most--he certainly
          is displaying male chauvinism and unloving behavior. Yeah,
          Klemp talks about a unisex society but yet the male is still
          dominant! LOL!

          I think that Klemp inviting Joan to share the stage with him,
          singing her little song, elevated her, but he also kept her in
          a subordinate role. Yep, she'll help him keep the power, but
          he will still run the show! So, much for equal footing--male/
          female! Klemp is working hard to position Joan as a co-l.e.m.
          but yet he isn't making it equal! But it is fun to watch his game.
          I suppose he doesn't want another replay like Gail naming Twitchell's
          replacement- -Klemp would like it to look more legitimate the
          next time, in case something happens to him suddenly! : )
          > >

          Anyway . . .
          I especially love the way Mark summed this all up in his last
          paragraph! Too funny! Klemp is the agent of change going
          into all and every public bathroom regardless of them being
          for women or men--by golly, Klemp is going in there and
          making changes . . . and his chelas are embracing this
          idea as they too want to help with the change that obviously
          can be started in such a basic and fundalmental places as
          restrooms. Hey, just remember if the opposite gender comes
          into the restroom you are using, don't be alarmed--it' s not
          any nut or pervert, it's just a nutty, possibly perverted
          eckist! So much for those special, elevated spiritual teachings! : )

          Mish
        • prometheus_973
          Doesn t it seem like there is a Lack of Communication between these two (Harry & Joan), as well as, a problem with bladder control (lower chakra health)! One s
          Message 4 of 11 , Dec 26, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            Doesn't it seem like there is a Lack of Communication
            between these two (Harry & Joan), as well as, a problem
            with bladder control (lower chakra health)! One's a 14th
            Initiate and the other a 9th Initiate and yet most average
            couples (non-Eckists) communicate better and are more
            capable than these two goofs!

            Can't HK go into the men's restroom with Joan?! Sure! And,
            where's that "inner (and outer) communication" to Know where
            Joan is? Where's the Mahanta's "intuition" and "insight" for Harry
            Not to know the men's room was locked because Joan was in there!

            Is the Mahanta Consciousness limited to KNOWING these things!
            It's ridiculous! Klemp is a mini-master scammer! One can see the
            "proof in the pudding" that ECK Initiations are Bogus! Would this
            comedy of errors happen to Rebazar? Would Rebazar get "punked"
            by the KAL? Of course Not!

            Klemp is Not a real Master anyway, and Rebazar is a fictional
            character created by Twitchell in order to "initiate" himself!

            Plus, just read the stupid stories sent to The Mystic World,
            H.I. Letter, and RESA Star! These H.I.s are talking about
            really basic stuff as though it's a revelation in consciousness
            and a miracle due to the Mahanta interceding for them! One
            can read these same type of stories, if not better or greater
            ones and examples of faith, from other religions that Eckankar
            views as lesser (lower) spiritual paths! Eckists really need to
            get out more with non-Eckists and read more non-Eck books.
            And, everyone really need to take people off those pedestals...
            no one should be placed Higher (or lower) than Oneself!

            Prometheus

            prometheus wrote:
            >
            > In the 12/2007 Mystic World Sharon Kunin's
            > article is Damage Control for Klemp's 2007
            > EWWS "RESTROOMS ARE UNISEX" comments!
            >
            > Sharon's article begins on page 1 and is titled,
            > "A Year of Blessing." On page 7 Sharon states
            > that Klemp walked into the women's restroom
            > where:

            ***
            "... he (HK) encountered a very alarmed
            white-haired woman standing at the sink.
            Excusing himself, SRI HAROLD RETURNED TO
            THE MEN'S ROOM JUST AS JOAN EMERGED..."
            ***

            > Now how does this... Oh! er excuse me madame!
            > "Change" her consciousness? What happened to
            > "Restrooms Are Unisex!"
            >
            > Or, did HK follow the Law of Silence and whispered
            > or whimpered to himself, under his breath, Restrooms
            > Should Be (are) Unisex Damnit! I Have Spoken!!!
            > Maybe Klemp only shared his thoughts of what he
            > wanted to say to that "Alarmed" white-haired woman?
            > Maybe it was all made-up and he lied that he had said
            > anything.
            >
            > Maybe this is what Sharon is really pointing out. Klemp
            > lied to ECKists at the 2007 EWWS and never told that
            > woman that Restrooms Are Unisex!
            >
            > I guess that the Holocaust didn't happen either!
            >
            > Or maybe, the Klemp's, the ESC and RESA Police
            > are trying to re-write ECKANKAR History with this
            > Damage Control! Almost everyone was embarrassed
            > by Klemp's stupid comments and this generated
            > a reaction of mass disapproval by the more sane ECKists!
            >
            > Although HK is out-of-control the EK Board can't
            > do anything about it like they did with Gross! They
            > allowed Klemp to restructure things giving himself
            > sole authority. Too bad so sad! But what goes around
            > comes around... that's karma isn't it?! LOL!
            >
            > I wonder what ECKists are thinking about this
            > rewrite by Sharon Kunin which was approved
            > of by both Joan and Harold? Do they think that
            > this will make things better or that HK's nutty
            > comments will all go away? I'll bet the tape of
            > that talk gets edited along with the written version
            > of it in the next Mahanta Transcripts!
            >
            > If there wasn't anything to hide (change)...
            > Why Are They Doing This?!
            >
            > Let's just "change" Truth into Fiction... this seems
            > to be the ECKANKAR way of viewing life! Or, maybe
            > ECKists like Mark just "imagined" they saw and heard
            > the Mahanta when it was actually the KAL!
            >
            > Prometheus
            > p.s. HK's comments to Joan to "hush-up" weren't
            > appreciated either by ECKists!
            >
            >
            > On HuChat, Mark Alexander wrote:
            >
            > "I always listen to Harold's talk as if they were Living
            > Shariyat dreams... Sometimes I think people forget that
            > Harold is not just telling stories to get a chuckle, that
            > there is a literal Mahanta... WE are the white-haired lady
            > in the women's restroom that Harold talked about...
            >
            > Even true stories are parables, especially when they involve
            > Harold and Joan.
            >
            > In the restroom story (abbreviated version), Harold and
            > Joan were shopping. Joan went to the restroom, found a
            > white-haired lady waiting for the Women's room. The Men's
            > room was not occupied, so Joan asked the lady why she
            > didn't use it. The women said that it was for men only.
            >
            > Harold said that he and Joan have a policy of using
            > 'any port in the storm.' So Joan went into the Men's room.
            > Meanwhile, Harold comes along looking for a restroom,
            > finds the Men's room locked, so he tries the Women's room.
            > It's unlocked, he enters, and of course the white-haired lady
            > is there. She looks at him shocked. 'But this is the Women's room!'
            > she says.
            >
            > HAROLD SAYS AS FAR AS HE'S CONCERNED THE RESTROOMS
            > ARE UNISEX. HE MUSED THAT HE WONDERED AT HOW THE
            > ECK USED HIM TO CHANGE THE STATE OF CONSCIOUSNESS
            > OF THE WHITE-HAIRED WOMAN.
            >
            > This story puts a cap on a particularly nice Living Word
            > aspect of this talk. I've seen on many occasions how Harold
            > will say something that will tweak the human consciousness
            > (political or social or eck-related) , then in the same talk there
            > would be a story that addresses what he tweaks. This is how the
            > Living Word works.
            >
            > Earlier in his talk when Joan was singing, she got a little
            > lost in singing the complete song and so it went on longer
            > than it should have. Harold made a comment about her
            > going on like that, and how sometimes at home he would
            > have to say something if she talks too long. It was a very male/
            > female comment...
            >
            > So here we have Harold tweaking us on the male/female
            > thing and then later tells us a story that tries to remind us
            > not to get stuck in male/ female categories. That they are fine,
            > but we should not be like the white-haired lady, stuck in one
            > or the other. We should be thinking Unisex, SOUL, beyond
            > the categories. Change is Change (the title of the talk)... the
            > Mahanta. He is the agent of change sent by the ECK into our
            > bathroom to tweak us out of our stuck, white-haired old lady
            > views. My opinion. Your mileage may vary. Hu Mark_"
            >
            >
            > misha wrote:
            >
            > For those of you wondering what great pearls of wisdom
            > came out of Klemp's recent talk at the eckankar world wide
            > seminar, Mark Alexander has shared some of his impressions
            > of Klemp's speak, calling it "The Living Word." BTW, I find
            > Mark's babbling to be more of his own discomfort in what
            > Klemp said--that he, too, must have been troubled by Klemp's
            > message just as well as the eckists who came up to him afterwards
            > questioning some of Klemp's remarks.
            > > >
            > here's few of my thoughts on what he shared.
            > > >
            >
            > 1. The bathroom story seems recycled as I read something
            > similar in one of Klemp's transcripts years ago . . . unless
            > Klemp still has a thing about bathrooms. It's odd he is directing
            > chelas to do some vahana work in public restrooms now!
            >
            > Personally the whole bathroom talk, Unisex comments,
            > raising a white haired lady's consciousness, etc. is really
            > quite weird--but what can one expect from a guy who
            > disrobed in an airport. Klemp was out of balance then, and
            > he still is out of balance!
            > > >
            >
            > 2. It seems too that he doesn't like women, especially white
            > haired ones! I have to wonder if he loved his mother--or he
            > wouldn't so easily put down an older woman who reacted naturally
            > "shocked" when he entered a women's restroom. Too bad security
            > wasn't called on Klemp for doing this--maybe, he needs another
            > time out in a mental institution since it doesn't appear he was
            > cured from his mental unbalance and inappropriate behavior
            > the first time.
            >
            > Telling chelas on such a large stage that he sometimes tells
            > Joan to quit talking at home, is really arrogant and disrespectful
            > of the one he should love and treasure the most--he certainly
            > is displaying male chauvinism and unloving behavior. Yeah,
            > Klemp talks about a unisex society but yet the male is still
            > dominant! LOL!
            >
            > I think that Klemp inviting Joan to share the stage with him,
            > singing her little song, elevated her, but he also kept her in
            > a subordinate role. Yep, she'll help him keep the power, but
            > he will still run the show! So, much for equal footing--male/
            > female! Klemp is working hard to position Joan as a co-l.e.m.
            > but yet he isn't making it equal! But it is fun to watch his game.
            > I suppose he doesn't want another replay like Gail naming Twitchell's
            > replacement- -Klemp would like it to look more legitimate the
            > next time, in case something happens to him suddenly! : )
            > > >
            >
            > Anyway . . .
            > I especially love the way Mark summed this all up in his last
            > paragraph! Too funny! Klemp is the agent of change going
            > into all and every public bathroom regardless of them being
            > for women or men--by golly, Klemp is going in there and
            > making changes . . . and his chelas are embracing this
            > idea as they too want to help with the change that obviously
            > can be started in such a basic and fundalmental places as
            > restrooms. Hey, just remember if the opposite gender comes
            > into the restroom you are using, don't be alarmed--it' s not
            > any nut or pervert, it's just a nutty, possibly perverted
            > eckist! So much for those special, elevated spiritual teachings! : )
            >
            > Mish
            >
          • mishmisha9
            Hi, All! I think I already mentioned in another post regarding HK s bathroom stunt EWWS talk story, that HK has told similar bathroom stories in the past
            Message 5 of 11 , Dec 28, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi, All!

              I think I already mentioned in another post regarding HK's
              bathroom "stunt" EWWS talk story, that HK has told similar
              bathroom stories in the past where Joan and/or he will go
              into the opposite gender restrooms due to their impatience of
              waiting until the proper restroom is available or their own
              poor timing in going off to take care of their basic needs!
              Why HK and Joan think this is appropriate and acceptable
              behavior is really amusing as many would think it perverted
              and maybe would report them to store security. LOL!

              Anyway, it seems for HK, the highlights of his day are such
              activities. His life is so mundune and so uninspiring that he
              grasps for any kind of event to make it sound inspirational--
              such as going into the opposite gender public restrooms,
              disturbing a white haired lady, and hooking this weirdness into
              some sort of change is change story for chelas to learn from! : )

              It is very revealing that Sharon Kunin has written her own
              condensed version of HK's talk, leaving out some "important"
              details from Mark Alexander's eye witness account. I wonder
              why Sharon Kunin has down played the bathroom story and
              omitted some key elements? I wonder how the master of the
              universe HK feels about the alteration of his story? It seems
              this re-write by Sharon Kunin indicates some other eck org
              higher ups also have a problem with the story as told by HK--
              and perhaps they are in agreement with some of the perspectives
              that we on ESA have regarding wily-nilly use of public restrooms!
              Do you think HK has embarrassed his inner circle of H.I. friends?
              Seems like it, doesn't it, with Sharon Kunin (Doug's wife) taking
              on this re-telling?

              Meanwhile, HK and Joan should change their bathroom habits--
              like not waiting too long before finding a restroom for use or
              maybe they need to see a "real" doctor to discuss their
              incontinent problems! If not a physical defect, then a good
              psychologist might be able to figure out why HK has such
              bathroom fetishes--probably goes back to his childhood toilet
              training? It might be why the white haired (mother figure) lady
              is so significant to HK's story???

              But in the meantime, the eck org continues to re-write their
              history, even recent history such as HK's EWWS talk in order
              for it to filter better out to the duped chelas and the general
              public who might stumble onto this whacky religious cult!
              Change is change but it doesn't need to be implemented in
              public restrooms! I shudder to think at what other crazy little
              ideas/thoughts will spill out of HK's mouth next! But when
              chelas take this bathroom story so seriously and try to do as
              the mahanta does, well, it just shows how following anyone,
              cult leader/hero, can take one down a slippery slope of
              unreasonable thinking and behaviors. : )

              Mish



              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
              "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
              >
              > Doesn't it seem like there is a Lack of Communication
              > between these two (Harry & Joan), as well as, a problem
              > with bladder control (lower chakra health)! One's a 14th
              > Initiate and the other a 9th Initiate and yet most average
              > couples (non-Eckists) communicate better and are more
              > capable than these two goofs!
              >
              > Can't HK go into the men's restroom with Joan?! Sure! And,
              > where's that "inner (and outer) communication" to Know where
              > Joan is? Where's the Mahanta's "intuition" and "insight" for Harry
              > Not to know the men's room was locked because Joan was in there!
              >
              > Is the Mahanta Consciousness limited to KNOWING these things!
              > It's ridiculous! Klemp is a mini-master scammer! One can see the
              > "proof in the pudding" that ECK Initiations are Bogus! Would this
              > comedy of errors happen to Rebazar? Would Rebazar get "punked"
              > by the KAL? Of course Not!
              >
              > Klemp is Not a real Master anyway, and Rebazar is a fictional
              > character created by Twitchell in order to "initiate" himself!
              >
              > Plus, just read the stupid stories sent to The Mystic World,
              > H.I. Letter, and RESA Star! These H.I.s are talking about
              > really basic stuff as though it's a revelation in consciousness
              > and a miracle due to the Mahanta interceding for them! One
              > can read these same type of stories, if not better or greater
              > ones and examples of faith, from other religions that Eckankar
              > views as lesser (lower) spiritual paths! Eckists really need to
              > get out more with non-Eckists and read more non-Eck books.
              > And, everyone really need to take people off those pedestals...
              > no one should be placed Higher (or lower) than Oneself!
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
              > prometheus wrote:
              > >
              > > In the 12/2007 Mystic World Sharon Kunin's
              > > article is Damage Control for Klemp's 2007
              > > EWWS "RESTROOMS ARE UNISEX" comments!
              > >
              > > Sharon's article begins on page 1 and is titled,
              > > "A Year of Blessing." On page 7 Sharon states
              > > that Klemp walked into the women's restroom
              > > where:
              >
              > ***
              > "... he (HK) encountered a very alarmed
              > white-haired woman standing at the sink.
              > Excusing himself, SRI HAROLD RETURNED TO
              > THE MEN'S ROOM JUST AS JOAN EMERGED..."
              > ***
              >
              > > Now how does this... Oh! er excuse me madame!
              > > "Change" her consciousness? What happened to
              > > "Restrooms Are Unisex!"
              > >
              > > Or, did HK follow the Law of Silence and whispered
              > > or whimpered to himself, under his breath, Restrooms
              > > Should Be (are) Unisex Damnit! I Have Spoken!!!
              > > Maybe Klemp only shared his thoughts of what he
              > > wanted to say to that "Alarmed" white-haired woman?
              > > Maybe it was all made-up and he lied that he had said
              > > anything.
              > >
              > > Maybe this is what Sharon is really pointing out. Klemp
              > > lied to ECKists at the 2007 EWWS and never told that
              > > woman that Restrooms Are Unisex!
              > >
              > > I guess that the Holocaust didn't happen either!
              > >
              > > Or maybe, the Klemp's, the ESC and RESA Police
              > > are trying to re-write ECKANKAR History with this
              > > Damage Control! Almost everyone was embarrassed
              > > by Klemp's stupid comments and this generated
              > > a reaction of mass disapproval by the more sane ECKists!
              > >
              > > Although HK is out-of-control the EK Board can't
              > > do anything about it like they did with Gross! They
              > > allowed Klemp to restructure things giving himself
              > > sole authority. Too bad so sad! But what goes around
              > > comes around... that's karma isn't it?! LOL!
              > >
              > > I wonder what ECKists are thinking about this
              > > rewrite by Sharon Kunin which was approved
              > > of by both Joan and Harold? Do they think that
              > > this will make things better or that HK's nutty
              > > comments will all go away? I'll bet the tape of
              > > that talk gets edited along with the written version
              > > of it in the next Mahanta Transcripts!
              > >
              > > If there wasn't anything to hide (change)...
              > > Why Are They Doing This?!
              > >
              > > Let's just "change" Truth into Fiction... this seems
              > > to be the ECKANKAR way of viewing life! Or, maybe
              > > ECKists like Mark just "imagined" they saw and heard
              > > the Mahanta when it was actually the KAL!
              > >
              > > Prometheus
              > > p.s. HK's comments to Joan to "hush-up" weren't
              > > appreciated either by ECKists!
              > >
              > >
              > > On HuChat, Mark Alexander wrote:
              > >
              > > "I always listen to Harold's talk as if they were Living
              > > Shariyat dreams... Sometimes I think people forget that
              > > Harold is not just telling stories to get a chuckle, that
              > > there is a literal Mahanta... WE are the white-haired lady
              > > in the women's restroom that Harold talked about...
              > >
              > > Even true stories are parables, especially when they involve
              > > Harold and Joan.
              > >
              > > In the restroom story (abbreviated version), Harold and
              > > Joan were shopping. Joan went to the restroom, found a
              > > white-haired lady waiting for the Women's room. The Men's
              > > room was not occupied, so Joan asked the lady why she
              > > didn't use it. The women said that it was for men only.
              > >
              > > Harold said that he and Joan have a policy of using
              > > 'any port in the storm.' So Joan went into the Men's room.
              > > Meanwhile, Harold comes along looking for a restroom,
              > > finds the Men's room locked, so he tries the Women's room.
              > > It's unlocked, he enters, and of course the white-haired lady
              > > is there. She looks at him shocked. 'But this is the Women's room!'
              > > she says.
              > >
              > > HAROLD SAYS AS FAR AS HE'S CONCERNED THE RESTROOMS
              > > ARE UNISEX. HE MUSED THAT HE WONDERED AT HOW THE
              > > ECK USED HIM TO CHANGE THE STATE OF CONSCIOUSNESS
              > > OF THE WHITE-HAIRED WOMAN.
              > >
              > > This story puts a cap on a particularly nice Living Word
              > > aspect of this talk. I've seen on many occasions how Harold
              > > will say something that will tweak the human consciousness
              > > (political or social or eck-related) , then in the same talk there
              > > would be a story that addresses what he tweaks. This is how the
              > > Living Word works.
              > >
              > > Earlier in his talk when Joan was singing, she got a little
              > > lost in singing the complete song and so it went on longer
              > > than it should have. Harold made a comment about her
              > > going on like that, and how sometimes at home he would
              > > have to say something if she talks too long. It was a very male/
              > > female comment...
              > >
              > > So here we have Harold tweaking us on the male/female
              > > thing and then later tells us a story that tries to remind us
              > > not to get stuck in male/ female categories. That they are fine,
              > > but we should not be like the white-haired lady, stuck in one
              > > or the other. We should be thinking Unisex, SOUL, beyond
              > > the categories. Change is Change (the title of the talk)... the
              > > Mahanta. He is the agent of change sent by the ECK into our
              > > bathroom to tweak us out of our stuck, white-haired old lady
              > > views. My opinion. Your mileage may vary. Hu Mark_"
              > >
              > >
              > > misha wrote:
              > >
              > > For those of you wondering what great pearls of wisdom
              > > came out of Klemp's recent talk at the eckankar world wide
              > > seminar, Mark Alexander has shared some of his impressions
              > > of Klemp's speak, calling it "The Living Word." BTW, I find
              > > Mark's babbling to be more of his own discomfort in what
              > > Klemp said--that he, too, must have been troubled by Klemp's
              > > message just as well as the eckists who came up to him afterwards
              > > questioning some of Klemp's remarks.
              > > > >
              > > here's few of my thoughts on what he shared.
              > > > >
              > >
              > > 1. The bathroom story seems recycled as I read something
              > > similar in one of Klemp's transcripts years ago . . . unless
              > > Klemp still has a thing about bathrooms. It's odd he is directing
              > > chelas to do some vahana work in public restrooms now!
              > >
              > > Personally the whole bathroom talk, Unisex comments,
              > > raising a white haired lady's consciousness, etc. is really
              > > quite weird--but what can one expect from a guy who
              > > disrobed in an airport. Klemp was out of balance then, and
              > > he still is out of balance!
              > > > >
              > >
              > > 2. It seems too that he doesn't like women, especially white
              > > haired ones! I have to wonder if he loved his mother--or he
              > > wouldn't so easily put down an older woman who reacted naturally
              > > "shocked" when he entered a women's restroom. Too bad security
              > > wasn't called on Klemp for doing this--maybe, he needs another
              > > time out in a mental institution since it doesn't appear he was
              > > cured from his mental unbalance and inappropriate behavior
              > > the first time.
              > >
              > > Telling chelas on such a large stage that he sometimes tells
              > > Joan to quit talking at home, is really arrogant and disrespectful
              > > of the one he should love and treasure the most--he certainly
              > > is displaying male chauvinism and unloving behavior. Yeah,
              > > Klemp talks about a unisex society but yet the male is still
              > > dominant! LOL!
              > >
              > > I think that Klemp inviting Joan to share the stage with him,
              > > singing her little song, elevated her, but he also kept her in
              > > a subordinate role. Yep, she'll help him keep the power, but
              > > he will still run the show! So, much for equal footing--male/
              > > female! Klemp is working hard to position Joan as a co-l.e.m.
              > > but yet he isn't making it equal! But it is fun to watch his game.
              > > I suppose he doesn't want another replay like Gail naming Twitchell's
              > > replacement- -Klemp would like it to look more legitimate the
              > > next time, in case something happens to him suddenly! : )
              > > > >
              > >
              > > Anyway . . .
              > > I especially love the way Mark summed this all up in his last
              > > paragraph! Too funny! Klemp is the agent of change going
              > > into all and every public bathroom regardless of them being
              > > for women or men--by golly, Klemp is going in there and
              > > making changes . . . and his chelas are embracing this
              > > idea as they too want to help with the change that obviously
              > > can be started in such a basic and fundalmental places as
              > > restrooms. Hey, just remember if the opposite gender comes
              > > into the restroom you are using, don't be alarmed--it' s not
              > > any nut or pervert, it's just a nutty, possibly perverted
              > > eckist! So much for those special, elevated spiritual teachings! : )
              > >
              > > Mish
              > >
              >
            • prometheus_973
              Hi Mish and All, It looks to me like Joan and Sharon (others too?) planned to do some Damage Control without Harry knowing what they were up to. I know HK read
              Message 6 of 11 , Dec 28, 2007
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                Hi Mish and All,
                It looks to me like Joan and Sharon (others too?) planned
                to do some Damage Control without Harry knowing what
                they were up to. I know HK read and approved Sharon's
                article, but I don't think he noticed WHY it was written
                with certain details omitted.

                Afterall, the title of HK's talk was "Change is Change"
                and Klemp states that he "changed" the white-haired
                woman's consciousness! And, HK said (to all ECKists)
                that as far as he was concerned, "Restrooms Are Unisex!"

                Klemp states at the end of his 12/2007 WISDOM NOTES:
                "It's all about consciousness; it's all about love."

                What happened to the Law of Non-Interference? How
                "loving" was Klemp to this white-haired woman when
                he "alarmed" her and invaded her private space?

                According to Sharon Kunin HK just excused himself to
                the woman and left. How did this "change her consciousness"
                or show "love?" HK states that "It's all about consciousness"
                and "love," but WHY did HK claim to Interfere with the Current
                State of the Woman's Consciousness Without Her Permission?

                Don't Black Magicians or agents of the KAL manipulate
                or "change" people without their permission? Sure!

                Another thing! HK only states that he "Changed" the woman's
                consciousness BUT doesn't say in Which direction, or in What
                way! Will she now go and jump off the I-35 bridge! Did she
                (a non-ECKist) receive God Realization by the Restroom
                Mahanta!

                Yes, it seems that Joan and Sharon (Doug and other Board
                members too?) decided to do a seminar recap with certain
                embarrassing details left out. I wonder what Harry will think
                about that now that it's been pointed out?!

                Prometheus
                ********************************************************
                Sharon Kunin's 12/2007 EK Mystic World article begins
                on page 1 and is titled, "A Year of Blessing." On page
                7 Sharon states that Harold Klemp (the Mahanta) walked
                into the women's restroom where:

                "... he (HK) encountered a very alarmed
                white-haired woman standing at the sink.
                Excusing himself, SRI HAROLD RETURNED TO
                THE MEN'S ROOM JUST AS JOAN EMERGED..."

                Mark A. shares his notes of HK's 2007 EWWS talk on HU-Chat:

                "HAROLD SAYS AS FAR AS HE'S CONCERNED THE RESTROOMS
                ARE UNISEX. HE MUSED THAT HE WONDERED AT HOW THE
                ECK USED HIM TO CHANGE THE STATE OF CONSCIOUSNESS
                OF THE WHITE-HAIRED WOMAN...

                EARLIER IN HIS TALK WHEN JOAN WAS SINGING, SHE GOT
                A LITTLE LOST IN SINGING THE COMPLETE SONG AND SO
                IT WENT ON LONGER THAN IT SHOULD HAVE. HAROLD MADE
                A COMMENT ABOUT HER GOING ON LIKE THAT, AND HOW
                SOMETIMES AT HOME HE WOULD HAVE TO SAY SOMETHING
                IF SHE TALKS TOO LONG. IT WAS A VERY MALE/FEMALE
                COMMENT..."

                ***************************************************************

                mish wrote:
                >
                > Hi, All!
                >
                > I think I already mentioned in another post regarding HK's
                > bathroom "stunt" EWWS talk story, that HK has told similar
                > bathroom stories in the past where Joan and/or he will go
                > into the opposite gender restrooms due to their impatience of
                > waiting until the proper restroom is available or their own
                > poor timing in going off to take care of their basic needs!
                > Why HK and Joan think this is appropriate and acceptable
                > behavior is really amusing as many would think it perverted
                > and maybe would report them to store security. LOL!
                >
                > Anyway, it seems for HK, the highlights of his day are such
                > activities. His life is so mundune and so uninspiring that he
                > grasps for any kind of event to make it sound inspirational--
                > such as going into the opposite gender public restrooms,
                > disturbing a white haired lady, and hooking this weirdness into
                > some sort of change is change story for chelas to learn from! : )
                >
                > It is very revealing that Sharon Kunin has written her own
                > condensed version of HK's talk, leaving out some "important"
                > details from Mark Alexander's eye witness account. I wonder
                > why Sharon Kunin has down played the bathroom story and
                > omitted some key elements? I wonder how the master of the
                > universe HK feels about the alteration of his story? It seems
                > this re-write by Sharon Kunin indicates some other eck org
                > higher ups also have a problem with the story as told by HK--
                > and perhaps they are in agreement with some of the perspectives
                > that we on ESA have regarding wily-nilly use of public restrooms!
                > Do you think HK has embarrassed his inner circle of H.I. friends?
                > Seems like it, doesn't it, with Sharon Kunin (Doug's wife) taking
                > on this re-telling?
                >
                > Meanwhile, HK and Joan should change their bathroom habits--
                > like not waiting too long before finding a restroom for use or
                > maybe they need to see a "real" doctor to discuss their
                > incontinent problems! If not a physical defect, then a good
                > psychologist might be able to figure out why HK has such
                > bathroom fetishes--probably goes back to his childhood toilet
                > training? It might be why the white haired (mother figure) lady
                > is so significant to HK's story???
                >
                > But in the meantime, the eck org continues to re-write their
                > history, even recent history such as HK's EWWS talk in order
                > for it to filter better out to the duped chelas and the general
                > public who might stumble onto this whacky religious cult!
                > Change is change but it doesn't need to be implemented in
                > public restrooms! I shudder to think at what other crazy little
                > ideas/thoughts will spill out of HK's mouth next! But when
                > chelas take this bathroom story so seriously and try to do as
                > the mahanta does, well, it just shows how following anyone,
                > cult leader/hero, can take one down a slippery slope of
                > unreasonable thinking and behaviors. : )
                >
                > Mish
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Doesn't it seem like there is a Lack of Communication
                > > between these two (Harry & Joan), as well as, a problem
                > > with bladder control (lower chakra health)! One's a 14th
                > > Initiate and the other a 9th Initiate and yet most average
                > > couples (non-Eckists) communicate better and are more
                > > capable than these two goofs!
                > >
                > > Can't HK go into the men's restroom with Joan?! Sure! And,
                > > where's that "inner (and outer) communication" to Know where
                > > Joan is? Where's the Mahanta's "intuition" and "insight" for Harry
                > > Not to know the men's room was locked because Joan was in there!
                > >
                > > Is the Mahanta Consciousness limited to KNOWING these things!
                > > It's ridiculous! Klemp is a mini-master scammer! One can see the
                > > "proof in the pudding" that ECK Initiations are Bogus! Would this
                > > comedy of errors happen to Rebazar? Would Rebazar get "punked"
                > > by the KAL? Of course Not!
                > >
                > > Klemp is Not a real Master anyway, and Rebazar is a fictional
                > > character created by Twitchell in order to "initiate" himself!
                > >
                > > Plus, just read the stupid stories sent to The Mystic World,
                > > H.I. Letter, and RESA Star! These H.I.s are talking about
                > > really basic stuff as though it's a revelation in consciousness
                > > and a miracle due to the Mahanta interceding for them! One
                > > can read these same type of stories, if not better or greater
                > > ones and examples of faith, from other religions that Eckankar
                > > views as lesser (lower) spiritual paths! Eckists really need to
                > > get out more with non-Eckists and read more non-Eck books.
                > > And, everyone really need to take people off those pedestals...
                > > no one should be placed Higher (or lower) than Oneself!
                > >
                > > Prometheus
                > >
                > > prometheus wrote:
                > > >
                > > > In the 12/2007 Mystic World Sharon Kunin's
                > > > article is Damage Control for Klemp's 2007
                > > > EWWS "RESTROOMS ARE UNISEX" comments!
                > > >
                > > > Sharon's article begins on page 1 and is titled,
                > > > "A Year of Blessing." On page 7 Sharon states
                > > > that Klemp walked into the women's restroom
                > > > where:
                > >
                > > ***
                > > "... he (HK) encountered a very alarmed
                > > white-haired woman standing at the sink.
                > > Excusing himself, SRI HAROLD RETURNED TO
                > > THE MEN'S ROOM JUST AS JOAN EMERGED..."
                > > ***
                > >
                > > > Now how does this... Oh! er excuse me madame!
                > > > "Change" her consciousness? What happened to
                > > > "Restrooms Are Unisex!"
                > > >
                > > > Or, did HK follow the Law of Silence and whispered
                > > > or whimpered to himself, under his breath, Restrooms
                > > > Should Be (are) Unisex Damnit! I Have Spoken!!!
                > > > Maybe Klemp only shared his thoughts of what he
                > > > wanted to say to that "Alarmed" white-haired woman?
                > > > Maybe it was all made-up and he lied that he had said
                > > > anything.
                > > >
                > > > Maybe this is what Sharon is really pointing out. Klemp
                > > > lied to ECKists at the 2007 EWWS and never told that
                > > > woman that Restrooms Are Unisex!
                > > >
                > > > I guess that the Holocaust didn't happen either!
                > > >
                > > > Or maybe, the Klemp's, the ESC and RESA Police
                > > > are trying to re-write ECKANKAR History with this
                > > > Damage Control! Almost everyone was embarrassed
                > > > by Klemp's stupid comments and this generated
                > > > a reaction of mass disapproval by the more sane ECKists!
                > > >
                > > > Although HK is out-of-control the EK Board can't
                > > > do anything about it like they did with Gross! They
                > > > allowed Klemp to restructure things giving himself
                > > > sole authority. Too bad so sad! But what goes around
                > > > comes around... that's karma isn't it?! LOL!
                > > >
                > > > I wonder what ECKists are thinking about this
                > > > rewrite by Sharon Kunin which was approved
                > > > of by both Joan and Harold? Do they think that
                > > > this will make things better or that HK's nutty
                > > > comments will all go away? I'll bet the tape of
                > > > that talk gets edited along with the written version
                > > > of it in the next Mahanta Transcripts!
                > > >
                > > > If there wasn't anything to hide (change)...
                > > > Why Are They Doing This?!
                > > >
                > > > Let's just "change" Truth into Fiction... this seems
                > > > to be the ECKANKAR way of viewing life! Or, maybe
                > > > ECKists like Mark just "imagined" they saw and heard
                > > > the Mahanta when it was actually the KAL!
                > > >
                > > > Prometheus
                > > > p.s. HK's comments to Joan to "hush-up" weren't
                > > > appreciated either by ECKists!
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > On HuChat, Mark Alexander wrote:
                > > >
                > > > "I always listen to Harold's talk as if they were Living
                > > > Shariyat dreams... Sometimes I think people forget that
                > > > Harold is not just telling stories to get a chuckle, that
                > > > there is a literal Mahanta... WE are the white-haired lady
                > > > in the women's restroom that Harold talked about...
                > > >
                > > > Even true stories are parables, especially when they involve
                > > > Harold and Joan.
                > > >
                > > > In the restroom story (abbreviated version), Harold and
                > > > Joan were shopping. Joan went to the restroom, found a
                > > > white-haired lady waiting for the Women's room. The Men's
                > > > room was not occupied, so Joan asked the lady why she
                > > > didn't use it. The women said that it was for men only.
                > > >
                > > > Harold said that he and Joan have a policy of using
                > > > 'any port in the storm.' So Joan went into the Men's room.
                > > > Meanwhile, Harold comes along looking for a restroom,
                > > > finds the Men's room locked, so he tries the Women's room.
                > > > It's unlocked, he enters, and of course the white-haired lady
                > > > is there. She looks at him shocked. 'But this is the Women's room!'
                > > > she says.
                > > >
                > > > HAROLD SAYS AS FAR AS HE'S CONCERNED THE RESTROOMS
                > > > ARE UNISEX. HE MUSED THAT HE WONDERED AT HOW THE
                > > > ECK USED HIM TO CHANGE THE STATE OF CONSCIOUSNESS
                > > > OF THE WHITE-HAIRED WOMAN.
                > > >
                > > > This story puts a cap on a particularly nice Living Word
                > > > aspect of this talk. I've seen on many occasions how Harold
                > > > will say something that will tweak the human consciousness
                > > > (political or social or eck-related) , then in the same talk there
                > > > would be a story that addresses what he tweaks. This is how the
                > > > Living Word works.
                > > >
                > > > Earlier in his talk when Joan was singing, she got a little
                > > > lost in singing the complete song and so it went on longer
                > > > than it should have. Harold made a comment about her
                > > > going on like that, and how sometimes at home he would
                > > > have to say something if she talks too long. It was a very male/
                > > > female comment...
                > > >
                > > > So here we have Harold tweaking us on the male/female
                > > > thing and then later tells us a story that tries to remind us
                > > > not to get stuck in male/ female categories. That they are fine,
                > > > but we should not be like the white-haired lady, stuck in one
                > > > or the other. We should be thinking Unisex, SOUL, beyond
                > > > the categories. Change is Change (the title of the talk)... the
                > > > Mahanta. He is the agent of change sent by the ECK into our
                > > > bathroom to tweak us out of our stuck, white-haired old lady
                > > > views. My opinion. Your mileage may vary. Hu Mark_"
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > misha wrote:
                > > >
                > > > For those of you wondering what great pearls of wisdom
                > > > came out of Klemp's recent talk at the eckankar world wide
                > > > seminar, Mark Alexander has shared some of his impressions
                > > > of Klemp's speak, calling it "The Living Word." BTW, I find
                > > > Mark's babbling to be more of his own discomfort in what
                > > > Klemp said--that he, too, must have been troubled by Klemp's
                > > > message just as well as the eckists who came up to him afterwards
                > > > questioning some of Klemp's remarks.
                > > > > >
                > > > here's few of my thoughts on what he shared.
                > > > > >
                > > >
                > > > 1. The bathroom story seems recycled as I read something
                > > > similar in one of Klemp's transcripts years ago . . . unless
                > > > Klemp still has a thing about bathrooms. It's odd he is directing
                > > > chelas to do some vahana work in public restrooms now!
                > > >
                > > > Personally the whole bathroom talk, Unisex comments,
                > > > raising a white haired lady's consciousness, etc. is really
                > > > quite weird--but what can one expect from a guy who
                > > > disrobed in an airport. Klemp was out of balance then, and
                > > > he still is out of balance!
                > > > > >
                > > >
                > > > 2. It seems too that he doesn't like women, especially white
                > > > haired ones! I have to wonder if he loved his mother--or he
                > > > wouldn't so easily put down an older woman who reacted naturally
                > > > "shocked" when he entered a women's restroom. Too bad security
                > > > wasn't called on Klemp for doing this--maybe, he needs another
                > > > time out in a mental institution since it doesn't appear he was
                > > > cured from his mental unbalance and inappropriate behavior
                > > > the first time.
                > > >
                > > > Telling chelas on such a large stage that he sometimes tells
                > > > Joan to quit talking at home, is really arrogant and disrespectful
                > > > of the one he should love and treasure the most--he certainly
                > > > is displaying male chauvinism and unloving behavior. Yeah,
                > > > Klemp talks about a unisex society but yet the male is still
                > > > dominant! LOL!
                > > >
                > > > I think that Klemp inviting Joan to share the stage with him,
                > > > singing her little song, elevated her, but he also kept her in
                > > > a subordinate role. Yep, she'll help him keep the power, but
                > > > he will still run the show! So, much for equal footing--male/
                > > > female! Klemp is working hard to position Joan as a co-l.e.m.
                > > > but yet he isn't making it equal! But it is fun to watch his game.
                > > > I suppose he doesn't want another replay like Gail naming Twitchell's
                > > > replacement- -Klemp would like it to look more legitimate the
                > > > next time, in case something happens to him suddenly! : )
                > > > > >
                > > >
                > > > Anyway . . .
                > > > I especially love the way Mark summed this all up in his last
                > > > paragraph! Too funny! Klemp is the agent of change going
                > > > into all and every public bathroom regardless of them being
                > > > for women or men--by golly, Klemp is going in there and
                > > > making changes . . . and his chelas are embracing this
                > > > idea as they too want to help with the change that obviously
                > > > can be started in such a basic and fundalmental places as
                > > > restrooms. Hey, just remember if the opposite gender comes
                > > > into the restroom you are using, don't be alarmed--it' s not
                > > > any nut or pervert, it's just a nutty, possibly perverted
                > > > eckist! So much for those special, elevated spiritual teachings! : )
                > > >
                > > > Mish
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • prometheus_973
                Practical Skepticism is Based on Common Sense [David Hume]. Shouldn t ECKists take a Common Sense approach to what they read, see, and hear coming from their
                Message 7 of 11 , Jan 2, 2008
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                  "Practical Skepticism is Based on Common Sense"
                  [David Hume]. Shouldn't ECKists take a Common
                  Sense approach to what they read, see, and hear
                  coming from their "ECK" Leaders and Mahanta?!


                  From Wikipedia:

                  Formal logic, as most people learn it, is deductive
                  rather than inductive. Some philosophers claim to
                  have created systems of inductive logic, but it is
                  controversial whether a logic of induction is even
                  possible. In contrast to deductive reasoning, conclusions
                  arrived at by inductive reasoning do not necessarily
                  have the same degree of certainty as the initial premises.

                  For example, a conclusion that all swans are white is
                  false, but may have been thought true in Europe until
                  the settlement of Australia, when Black Swans were
                  discovered. Inductive arguments are never binding
                  but they may be cogent. Inductive reasoning is deductively
                  invalid. (An argument in formal logic is valid if and only
                  if it is not possible for the premises of the argument to
                  be true whilst the conclusion is false.) In induction there
                  are always many conclusions that can reasonably be related
                  to certain premises. Inductions are open; deductions are
                  closed.

                  It is however possible to derive a true statement
                  using inductive reasoning if you know the conclusion.
                  The only way to have an efficient argument by induction
                  is for the known conclusion to be able to be true only
                  if an unstated external conclusion is true, from which
                  the initial conclusion was built and has certain criteria
                  to be met in order to be true (separate from the stated
                  conclusion).

                  By substitution of one conclusion for the other, you
                  can inductively find out what evidence you need in
                  order for your induction to be true. For example,
                  you have a window that opens only one way, but
                  not the other. Assuming that you know that the only
                  way for that to happen is that the hinges are faulty,
                  inductively you can postulate that the only way for
                  that window to be fixed would be to apply oil (whatever
                  will fix the unstated conclusion). From there on you
                  can successfully build your case.

                  However, if your unstated conclusion is false, which
                  can only be proven by deductive reasoning, then your
                  whole argument by induction collapses. Thus ultimately,
                  pure inductive reasoning does not exist.

                  The classic philosophical treatment of the problem
                  of induction, meaning the search for a justification
                  for inductive reasoning, was by the Scottish philosopher
                  David Hume. Hume highlighted the fact that our everyday
                  reasoning depends on patterns of repeated experience
                  rather than deductively valid arguments. For example,
                  we believe that bread will nourish us because it has
                  done so in the past, but this is not a guarantee that it
                  will always do so.

                  As Hume said, someone who insisted on sound
                  deductive justifications for everything would starve
                  to death.

                  Instead of approaching everything with unproductive
                  skepticism, Hume advocated a practical skepticism
                  based on common sense, where the inevitability of
                  induction is accepted.

                  Induction is sometimes framed as reasoning about
                  the future from the past, but in its broadest sense it
                  involves reaching conclusions about unobserved things
                  on the basis of what has been observed. Inferences
                  about the past from present evidence – for instance,
                  as in archaeology, count as induction. Induction could
                  also be across space rather than time, for instance as
                  in physical cosmology where conclusions about the
                  whole universe are drawn from the limited perspective
                  we are able to observe (see cosmic variance); or in
                  economics, where national economic policy is derived
                  from local economic performance.

                  Twentieth-century philosophy has approached induction
                  very differently. Rather than a choice about what predictions
                  to make about the future, induction can be seen as a choice
                  of what concepts to fit to observations or of how to graph
                  or represent a set of observed data.

                  Nelson Goodman posed a "new riddle of induction"
                  by inventing the property "grue" to which induction
                  does not apply. [end]

                  prometheus wrote:
                  >
                  > Doesn't it seem like there is a Lack of Communication
                  > between these two (Harry & Joan), as well as, a problem
                  > with bladder control (lower chakra health)! One's a 14th
                  > Initiate and the other a 9th Initiate and yet most average
                  > couples (non-Eckists) communicate better and are more
                  > capable than these two goofs!
                  >
                  > Can't HK go into the men's restroom with Joan?! Sure! And,
                  > where's that "inner (and outer) communication" to Know where
                  > Joan is? Where's the Mahanta's "intuition" and "insight" for Harry
                  > Not to know the men's room was locked because Joan was in there!
                  >
                  > Is the Mahanta Consciousness limited to KNOWING these things!
                  > It's ridiculous! Klemp is a mini-master scammer! One can see the
                  > "proof in the pudding" that ECK Initiations are Bogus! Would this
                  > comedy of errors happen to Rebazar? Would Rebazar get "punked"
                  > by the KAL? Of course Not!
                  >
                  [EDIT]
                  > Klemp is Not a real Master anyway, and Rebazar is a fictional
                  > character created by Twitchell in order to "initiate" himself!
                  > Is "imagination" proof, especially, someone else's? Why believe
                  > that Twitchell was incapable of lying about Eckankar when he
                  > lied about his birth date, Who's Who info, etc.? Use Common Sense!
                  > Klemp is also a liar, as well as, deluded because he knows he's
                  > no God-man let alone the Highest! Yet, he promotes himself
                  > as the highest authority over all!

                  > Plus, just read the stupid stories sent to The Mystic World,
                  > H.I. Letter, and RESA Star! These H.I.s are talking about
                  > really basic stuff as though it's a revelation in consciousness
                  > and a miracle due to the Mahanta interceding for them! One
                  > can read these same type of stories, if not better or greater
                  > ones and examples of faith, from other religions that Eckankar
                  > views as lesser (lower) spiritual paths! Eckists really need to
                  > get out more with non-Eckists and read more non-Eck books.
                  > And, everyone really need to take people off those pedestals...
                  > no one should be placed Higher (or lower) than Oneself!
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                  > prometheus wrote:
                  > >
                  > > In the 12/2007 Mystic World Sharon Kunin's
                  > > article is Damage Control for Klemp's 2007
                  > > EWWS "RESTROOMS ARE UNISEX" comments!
                  > >
                  > > Sharon's article begins on page 1 and is titled,
                  > > "A Year of Blessing." On page 7 Sharon states
                  > > that Klemp walked into the women's restroom
                  > > where:
                  >
                  > ***
                  > "... he (HK) encountered a very alarmed
                  > white-haired woman standing at the sink.
                  > Excusing himself, SRI HAROLD RETURNED TO
                  > THE MEN'S ROOM JUST AS JOAN EMERGED..."
                  > ***
                  >
                  > > Now how does this... Oh! er excuse me madame!
                  > > "Change" her consciousness? What happened to
                  > > "Restrooms Are Unisex!"
                  > >
                  > > Or, did HK follow the Law of Silence and whispered
                  > > or whimpered to himself, under his breath, Restrooms
                  > > Should Be (are) Unisex Damnit! I Have Spoken!!!
                  > > Maybe Klemp only shared his thoughts of what he
                  > > wanted to say to that "Alarmed" white-haired woman?
                  > > Maybe it was all made-up and he lied that he had said
                  > > anything.
                  > >
                  > > Maybe this is what Sharon is really pointing out. Klemp
                  > > lied to ECKists at the 2007 EWWS and never told that
                  > > woman that Restrooms Are Unisex!
                  > >
                  > > I guess that the Holocaust didn't happen either!
                  > >
                  > > Or maybe, the Klemp's, the ESC and RESA Police
                  > > are trying to re-write ECKANKAR History with this
                  > > Damage Control! Almost everyone was embarrassed
                  > > by Klemp's stupid comments and this generated
                  > > a reaction of mass disapproval by the more sane ECKists!
                  > >
                  > > Although HK is out-of-control the EK Board can't
                  > > do anything about it like they did with Gross! They
                  > > allowed Klemp to restructure things giving himself
                  > > sole authority. Too bad so sad! But what goes around
                  > > comes around... that's karma isn't it?! LOL!
                  > >
                  > > I wonder what ECKists are thinking about this
                  > > rewrite by Sharon Kunin which was approved
                  > > of by both Joan and Harold? Do they think that
                  > > this will make things better or that HK's nutty
                  > > comments will all go away? I'll bet the tape of
                  > > that talk gets edited along with the written version
                  > > of it in the next Mahanta Transcripts!
                  > >
                  > > If there wasn't anything to hide (change)...
                  > > Why Are They Doing This?!
                  > >
                  > > Let's just "change" Truth into Fiction... this seems
                  > > to be the ECKANKAR way of viewing life! Or, maybe
                  > > ECKists like Mark just "imagined" they saw and heard
                  > > the Mahanta when it was actually the KAL!
                  > >
                  > > Prometheus
                  > > p.s. HK's comments to Joan to "hush-up" weren't
                  > > appreciated either by ECKists!
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > On HuChat, Mark Alexander wrote:
                  > >
                  > > "I always listen to Harold's talk as if they were Living
                  > > Shariyat dreams... Sometimes I think people forget that
                  > > Harold is not just telling stories to get a chuckle, that
                  > > there is a literal Mahanta... WE are the white-haired lady
                  > > in the women's restroom that Harold talked about...
                  > >
                  > > Even true stories are parables, especially when they involve
                  > > Harold and Joan.
                  > >
                  > > In the restroom story (abbreviated version), Harold and
                  > > Joan were shopping. Joan went to the restroom, found a
                  > > white-haired lady waiting for the Women's room. The Men's
                  > > room was not occupied, so Joan asked the lady why she
                  > > didn't use it. The women said that it was for men only.
                  > >
                  > > Harold said that he and Joan have a policy of using
                  > > 'any port in the storm.' So Joan went into the Men's room.
                  > > Meanwhile, Harold comes along looking for a restroom,
                  > > finds the Men's room locked, so he tries the Women's room.
                  > > It's unlocked, he enters, and of course the white-haired lady
                  > > is there. She looks at him shocked. 'But this is the Women's room!'
                  > > she says.
                  > >
                  > > HAROLD SAYS AS FAR AS HE'S CONCERNED THE RESTROOMS
                  > > ARE UNISEX. HE MUSED THAT HE WONDERED AT HOW THE
                  > > ECK USED HIM TO CHANGE THE STATE OF CONSCIOUSNESS
                  > > OF THE WHITE-HAIRED WOMAN.
                  > >
                  > > This story puts a cap on a particularly nice Living Word
                  > > aspect of this talk. I've seen on many occasions how Harold
                  > > will say something that will tweak the human consciousness
                  > > (political or social or eck-related) , then in the same talk there
                  > > would be a story that addresses what he tweaks. This is how the
                  > > Living Word works.
                  > >
                  > > Earlier in his talk when Joan was singing, she got a little
                  > > lost in singing the complete song and so it went on longer
                  > > than it should have. Harold made a comment about her
                  > > going on like that, and how sometimes at home he would
                  > > have to say something if she talks too long. It was a very male/
                  > > female comment...
                  > >
                  > > So here we have Harold tweaking us on the male/female
                  > > thing and then later tells us a story that tries to remind us
                  > > not to get stuck in male/ female categories. That they are fine,
                  > > but we should not be like the white-haired lady, stuck in one
                  > > or the other. We should be thinking Unisex, SOUL, beyond
                  > > the categories. Change is Change (the title of the talk)... the
                  > > Mahanta. He is the agent of change sent by the ECK into our
                  > > bathroom to tweak us out of our stuck, white-haired old lady
                  > > views. My opinion. Your mileage may vary. Hu Mark_"
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > misha wrote:
                  > >
                  > > For those of you wondering what great pearls of wisdom
                  > > came out of Klemp's recent talk at the eckankar world wide
                  > > seminar, Mark Alexander has shared some of his impressions
                  > > of Klemp's speak, calling it "The Living Word." BTW, I find
                  > > Mark's babbling to be more of his own discomfort in what
                  > > Klemp said--that he, too, must have been troubled by Klemp's
                  > > message just as well as the eckists who came up to him afterwards
                  > > questioning some of Klemp's remarks.
                  > > > >
                  > > here's few of my thoughts on what he shared.
                  > > > >
                  > >
                  > > 1. The bathroom story seems recycled as I read something
                  > > similar in one of Klemp's transcripts years ago . . . unless
                  > > Klemp still has a thing about bathrooms. It's odd he is directing
                  > > chelas to do some vahana work in public restrooms now!
                  > >
                  > > Personally the whole bathroom talk, Unisex comments,
                  > > raising a white haired lady's consciousness, etc. is really
                  > > quite weird--but what can one expect from a guy who
                  > > disrobed in an airport. Klemp was out of balance then, and
                  > > he still is out of balance!
                  > > > >
                  > >
                  > > 2. It seems too that he doesn't like women, especially white
                  > > haired ones! I have to wonder if he loved his mother--or he
                  > > wouldn't so easily put down an older woman who reacted naturally
                  > > "shocked" when he entered a women's restroom. Too bad security
                  > > wasn't called on Klemp for doing this--maybe, he needs another
                  > > time out in a mental institution since it doesn't appear he was
                  > > cured from his mental unbalance and inappropriate behavior
                  > > the first time.
                  > >
                  > > Telling chelas on such a large stage that he sometimes tells
                  > > Joan to quit talking at home, is really arrogant and disrespectful
                  > > of the one he should love and treasure the most--he certainly
                  > > is displaying male chauvinism and unloving behavior. Yeah,
                  > > Klemp talks about a unisex society but yet the male is still
                  > > dominant! LOL!
                  > >
                  > > I think that Klemp inviting Joan to share the stage with him,
                  > > singing her little song, elevated her, but he also kept her in
                  > > a subordinate role. Yep, she'll help him keep the power, but
                  > > he will still run the show! So, much for equal footing--male/
                  > > female! Klemp is working hard to position Joan as a co-l.e.m.
                  > > but yet he isn't making it equal! But it is fun to watch his game.
                  > > I suppose he doesn't want another replay like Gail naming Twitchell's
                  > > replacement- -Klemp would like it to look more legitimate the
                  > > next time, in case something happens to him suddenly! : )
                  > > > >
                  > >
                  > > Anyway . . .
                  > > I especially love the way Mark summed this all up in his last
                  > > paragraph! Too funny! Klemp is the agent of change going
                  > > into all and every public bathroom regardless of them being
                  > > for women or men--by golly, Klemp is going in there and
                  > > making changes . . . and his chelas are embracing this
                  > > idea as they too want to help with the change that obviously
                  > > can be started in such a basic and fundalmental places as
                  > > restrooms. Hey, just remember if the opposite gender comes
                  > > into the restroom you are using, don't be alarmed--it' s not
                  > > any nut or pervert, it's just a nutty, possibly perverted
                  > > eckist! So much for those special, elevated spiritual teachings! : )
                  > >
                  > > Mish
                  > >
                  >
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