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Re: Mark: We [ECKists] Are The White-Haired [Old] Ladies & Were Ducks

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  • mishmisha9
    One has to wonder where eckankar would be today if Klemp had never been put in that power position. Even though Twitchell lied about the origins of the
    Message 1 of 11 , Nov 4, 2007
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      One has to wonder where eckankar would be today if
      Klemp had never been put in that power position. Even
      though Twitchell lied about the origins of the teachings
      and plagiarized heavily, it doesn't seem that Twitchell
      was mentally unbalanced as Klemp is. Put a nutter in
      the command of a group, and these ready to follow chelas
      take on the persona of being crazy too! Maybe true
      "change" would be of great benefit for eckankar . . . if it
      is not already too late! Klemp has established a cult of
      delusional thinking and is making followers into nut cases.
      I posted Mark's post because it showed how this crazy
      delusional thinking takes over an otherwise intelligent
      human being.

      Just read Klemp's autobiographies to grasp how he had
      mental problems as a kid, was a social outcast and didn't
      mature in a way to be able to look back and evaluate what
      was his illogical and confused thinking as a child. This is why
      Klemp is still arrested in development! His public bathroom antics
      are just one such example of his unbalanced, illogical, plus mean
      spirited behavior. Yes, he has been mean spirited as well--part of
      that illogical thinking and irrational behavior.

      Evidently, he also included in his talk a story about a woman who
      attempted suicide. The person who shared this part of his talk
      mentioned that Klemp said the suicidal woman was being
      defiant. I don't know how Klemp would know that, unless, he
      was ascribing his bridge jumping incident as his defiant behavior?
      Was Klemp defying God by jumping? Was that the true essence of
      his own suicidal attempt rather than a God Realization esperience?
      Was disrobing an act of defiance too, or just the actions of a confused
      and deranged mind?

      Describing someone who is in so much despair as to want to kill
      herself as being defiant doesn't seem very compassionate or
      understanding. While Klemp will claim to be compassionate and
      encourage it, his behavior and words show the contrary. Eckists
      also pick up on this--they will sign off with eck love, but they
      criticize and judge just as meanly as Klemp does of others.
      Confronting a white haired lady (why is the color or lack of color in her
      hair important to Klemp's story?) in a lady's bathroom and
      claim that he Klemp was raising her consciousness by telling her
      it was a unisex bathroom--is both mean and nutty. I can only
      hope that if this is standard behavior for Klemp when he is out in
      the public domain that he will be caught and brought to task for
      creating a public disturbance and possibly one with perverted
      implications. Klemp needs to have his consciousness corrected and
      balanced--he is way, way out there in cuckoo land! : )

      Already, in reading other posts by eckists concerning public
      bathrooms, it seems that some are ready to promote unisex
      restrooms just as Klemp did--barging in on unsuspected people
      who "think" that they are in a gender assigned restroom and
      pushing their will on them. As a female, I would not want any
      man coming into a female restroom as I would like to have the
      privacy to make any kind of clothing adjustment I might need at
      the time. I would not want to be in a stall with my panties down
      with a man doing his thing in the stall next to me. This is
      stranger danger in my book! It also puts small children at risk--
      just watch Perverted Justice to see how many perverts are out
      there looking for opportunity--they come from all ranks of life,
      including men in business suits.

      Wake up, Eckists! You have a mental case for your spiritual
      leader!

      Mish


      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
      "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Mish,
      > Thanks for posting Mark's silly and delusional
      > comments of Klemp's Lower Astral 2007 EWWS
      > talk. Eckankar has regressed from the 6th Chakra
      > of the Tisra Til (between the eyebrows) to the 1st
      > Chakra (orifices for waste elimination). HK seems
      > to be hinting at a new "spiritual" chakra for ECKists
      > to use in order to leave their body! LOL!
      >
      > Eckankar "PR" (public relations) has taken on the
      > new meaning of Public Restroom (PR)!
      >
      > Eckankar has been on a spiritual decline since
      > Twitchell croaked. Darwin Gross took EK "From
      > Heaven [upper Astral] to the Prairie" and Klemp
      > has taken EK "From the Prairie to the Toilet!"
      >
      > Anyway, I'll make more comments to Mark and
      > Klemp below.
      >
      > ***
      > MARK ALEXANDER wrote (on HU-Chat):
      >
      > "I always listen to Harold's talk as if they were
      > Living Shariyat dreams to be DECODED or as
      > ECK-Vidya tapestries that have an inherent &
      > unity and integration."
      >
      > [ME] How much decoding is necessary for H.I.s like
      > Mark?! Klemp has stated, before, that all words and
      > thoughts are NO Higher than the Mental Plane. Isn't
      > Mark a 6th initiate? Where's that "inner" communication
      > and Knowingness of a Higher Initiate? Oops! It's not
      > there is it! But not to worry... just "imagine" that it's
      > there via one's 20/20 hind-sight vision. That's why
      > Mark has to (now) grab at straws in order to "see."
      > H.I.s can't admit that their ECK initiations are worthless!
      > BTW-Why isn't PT's ECK-VIDYA offered anymore?
      >
      > MA: "SOMETIMES I THINK people forget that Harold is
      > not just telling stories to get a chuckle, that there is a
      > literal Mahanta wave of meaning and communication
      > going on that penetrates deeper than what is actually
      > being said when read in transcript. First of all, he's always
      > talking about us, the ECK initiates, in one way or another.
      > So in that context, WE are the WHITE-HAIRED LADY in
      > the WOMEN's RESTROOM that HAROLD TALKED ABOUT."
      >
      > [ME] Well, once again, Mark is giving his bias opinion
      > as though he has the best (and only) inside interpretation
      > of what HK was really saying. Is Mark now Klemp's unofficial
      > (PR) spokes-person and second guessing the Mahanta?
      > And, aren't all of HK's talks (WORDS), writings, and thoughts
      > NO HIGHER than the Mental Plane! This is what Klemp has
      > stated! However, WHY would Mark think that ALL ECKists
      > (including H.I.s) were NO MORE ADVANCED (regarding
      > change) than an Old White-Haired Female Non-ECKist?
      > But Yes, it is true that HK is preparing the ECK membership
      > for Joan to become the next LEM. Klemp doesn't trust
      > Peter, Don, Doug or anyone else except Joan. Look at how
      > he treated Gross! Other than Joan, the next LEM could toss
      > out Klemp's books and bring Twitchell's back and Klemp
      > would lose his 50% ($) royalties.
      >
      > MA: "Remember when we used to be ducks?
      > ('I moved the food over here, but the ducks stayed where
      > they were. I told them the food had moved and that they
      > would starve if they didn' t move, but they just stayed in
      > the same place, looking for the food that wasn't there.'
      >
      > [ME] I've fed ducks before. They will find the food!
      > Have you ever heard that you can lead a horse to water
      > but you can't make him drink? Besides, it's doing the
      > ducks a disservice to make them dependent upon people
      > for food. But, then again, this is what the Mahanta/LEM
      > does by making ECKists Dependent. No Spiritual Freedom
      > Here and Now... but maybe after this life, eventually?!
      > Well, this is the hope, belief, dream, promise, and
      > imaginings that all religions make to their followers.
      >
      > MA: "Remember parables? Even true stories are parables,
      > (especially when they involve Harold and Joan.) In the restroom
      > story (abbreviated version), Harold and Joan were shopping.
      > Joan went to the restroom, found a White-Haired Lady
      > waiting for the Women's room. The Men's room was
      > Not occupied, so Joan asked the lady why she didn't use it.
      > The women said that it was for men only. Harold said
      > that he and Joan have a policy of using 'Any Port in the
      > Storm.' So Joan went into the Men's room."
      >
      > [ME] "Even true stories are parables, (especially when
      > they involve Harold and Joan)." What a joke! Klemp can't
      > even hold a light to 2nd initiate JESUS! Look at the quality
      > and meaning of the original Parables that Jesus gave
      > 2,000 years ago, and of Klemp's paltry imitations he
      > uses today! BTW- Did Joan have to go that bad! And,
      > didn't the door have a lock on it? If there were no locks
      > on the doors these must have been been larger restrooms.
      > And, it seems this problem the Klemp's have with needing
      > to use the opposite gender's restroom happens often!
      > I guess that the Mahanta and future LEM (Joan) can't even
      > get a Parking Space either! Is the Parking Space Angel
      > "higher" than the Mahanta?! LOL!
      >
      > MA: "Meanwhile, Harold comes along looking for a restroom,
      > finds the Men's room locked, so he tries the Women's room.
      > It's unlocked, he enters, and of course the white-haired lady
      > is there. She looks at him shocked. 'But this is the Women's
      > room!' she says. Harold says as far as he's concerned the
      > restrooms are Unisex. He mused that he wondered at how
      > the ECK used him to change the state of conciousness of
      > the white-haired woman."
      >
      > [ME] Okay, I wonder WHY the woman didn't lock the door?
      > I guess she "assumed" she was safe! It seems that the
      > "spiritual" lesson Klemp taught her was to LOCK THE DOOR
      > the next time in order to keep the perverts out! BTW-If
      > a restroom is UNISEX it will have both male/female
      > symbols next to the door and will be for ONE person!
      > Klemp is such an idiot! HK doesn't see that the ECK
      > intended the LESSON to change HIS state of consciousness!
      >
      > MA: "This story puts a cap on a particularly nice Living
      > Word aspect of this talk. I've seen on many occasions
      > how Harold will say something that will tweak the human
      > consciousness (political or social or eck-related), then
      > in the same talk there would be a story that addresses
      > what he tweaks. This is how the Living Word works."
      >
      > [ME] Mark needs to re-read and comprehend the EK
      > Guidelines of Klemp's because "eck-related" S/B
      > ECK-related. "ECK" needs to be in all caps! Yet, Mark
      > claims to be an "expert" on anything and everything
      > ECK and even puts words (and their meanings) into
      > Klemp's mouth! When did Klemp ever have an opinion
      > of current politics? Mark is using his distorted imagination
      > and reading things into Klemp's Mental Plane (or lower)
      > words. ECKists are taught to create their own imaginary
      > heavenly worlds in order to feel free of fear. Besides,
      > Klemp always talks of or makes innuendos from past
      > events rather than the "Living" present. And, maybe
      > this white-haired (old) woman was more startled because
      > of the increase in crime, especially, sexual ones! Klemp
      > should keep current with the Here and Now. Remember
      > Larry Craig! And, What is HK teaching the ECK YOUTH?
      > Is it okay for a Female 10 year old ECKist to use the
      > MENs RESTROOM? Is this the type of parent Klemp was?
      >
      > MA: "Earlier in his talk when Joan was singing, she got a
      > little lost in singing the complete song and so it went
      > on longer than it should have."
      >
      > [ME] And this 9th initiate will become the LEM! What
      > happened to the GREATER and HIGHER AWARENESS
      > (than non-ECKists) that the ECK Initiations are supposed
      > to bring? Shouldn't the standards be higher as well?!
      >
      > MA: "Harold made a comment about her going on
      > like that, and how sometimes at home he would have
      > to say something if she talks too long. It was a very
      > male/female comment. One that tweaked the human
      > consciousness of some ECKists. I had some come up
      > to me and ask me my opinion of it. Did I think Harold
      > was being unkind to Joan? It bothered them."
      >
      > [ME] It bothered them for a reason! They had a glimpse
      > of the Truth! They had a glimpse of the Wizard of oZ
      > standing behind curtain (veil of lies). This was a Male
      > versus Female comment that you are trying to "tweak"
      > in order to maintain your delusion. ECKists fear the
      > Truth and that's why they need to deny it. Delusion
      > feels good, especially, with the "guarantee" those fake
      > initiations are to bring... in the future.
      >
      > MA: "I explained what I have here. That the Mahanta
      > as the Living Word will often say something that tweaks
      > the human consciousness and then tie it up later in a
      > story. Not that this was planned. It's just the way of the
      > ECK to work like this. The Living Word."
      >
      > [ME] Other people in other religions believe the same
      > according to their dogma. This is the KAL trap/test
      > involving all religions! Soul is It's own Living Word
      > with SPIRIT (ECK) and needs no middleman. That's
      > what religion teaches!
      >
      > MA: "So here we have Harold tweaking us on the
      > male/female thing and then later tells us a story that
      > tries to remind us not to get stuck in male/female
      > categories. That they are fine, but we should not be
      > like the white-haired lady, stuck in one or the other.
      > We should be thinking Unisex, SOUL, beyond the
      > categories."
      >
      > [ME] Shouldn't 30-45 year EK H.I.s have learned this
      > stuff by now? This is WHY I believe that Klemp has
      > taken PT's ECKANKAR in the opposite direction after
      > 25 years in charge! Yes, HK just needs to keep that
      > initiation carrot dangling! It makes these H.I.s feel
      > secure, elevated, and hopeful.
      >
      > MA: "Change is Change (the title of the talk). Harold's story
      > about the song Joan sang and going back to the ORIGINAL
      > song reminds us that the human consciousness likes to
      > change things. If you sing the song I posted separately,
      > you may notice that your human consciousness wants to
      > change it. But as it is, it offers a sublime "spaciousness"
      > that the mind would wrongly fill. Singing it the original
      > way offers sublime transport that the changes would destroy.
      > Furthermore, these worlds of categories complicate things
      > with male/ female categories."
      >
      > [ME] "Change is Change" and Religion is Religion!
      > So, did the Human Consciousness, also, change the
      > song "Amazing Grace" into "Amazing HU?" Did the
      > Mind of an ECKist "Wrongly Fill" or change this song
      > (Amazing HU) from the "original" version? Sure!
      >
      > MA: "The role of the Mahanta is to offer the 'simplifying'
      > change of going & back to the original, the Word, the HU,
      > the path of ECK that first leads us to Soul then to God
      > through the Mahanta. He is the agent of change sent by
      > the ECK into our bathroom to tweak us out of our stuck,
      > WHITE-HAIRED OLD LADY views. My opinion. Your mileage
      > may vary. HU Mark_"
      >
      > [ME] When did the "original" Mahanta come on the
      > scene? In the OCTOBER 2004 LETTER of LIGHT a 10
      > year old from Alberta, Canada asks: "How did the
      > Mahanta start?" Klemp states: "So the short answer,
      > Quinton, is that the SUGMAD first incarnated ITSELF
      > as the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master in the PRESENT
      > KALI YUGA." What happened to SAT NAM? Klemp is
      > Changing ECK History! And, How about GEUTAN?
      > Look at page 78 in Klemp's own LexiCon! The Kali
      > Yuga began in the Dark Age or Iron Age and the Iron
      > Age began around 500 B.C. Yet, Geutan is listed as
      > a former Mahanta/LEM in Lemuria (during the Tretya
      > Yuga).
      >
      > Yes, Mark and his followers are as nutty as they
      > come! they've lost touch with the last bits of reality
      > (Truth) that they once had... long ago.
      >
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
      >
      >
      > mish wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > For those of you wondering what great pearls of wisdom came out
      > > of Klemp's recent talk at the eckankar world wide seminar, Mark
      > > Alexander has shared some of his impressions of
      > > Klemp's speak, calling it "The Living Word." BTW, I find Mark's babbling
      > > to be more of his own discomfort in what Klemp said--that he, too,
      > > must have been troubled by Klemp's message just as well as the eckists
      > > who came up to him afterwards questioning some of Klemp's remarks.
      > >
      > > Before reading Mark's post, here's few of my thoughts on what he shared.
      > > 1. The bathroom story seems recycled as I read something similar in one
      > > of Klemp's transcripts years ago . . . unless Klemp still has a thing about
      > > bathrooms. It's odd he is directing chelas to do some vahana work in public
      > > restrooms now! Personally the whole bathroom talk, Unisex comments,
      > > raising a white haired lady's consciousness, etc. is really quite
      > > weird--but what can one expect from a guy who disrobed in an airport.
      > > Klemp was out of balance then, and he still is out of balance!
      > >
      > > 2. It seems too that he doesn't like women, especially white haired ones!
      > > I have to wonder if he loved his mother--or he wouldn't so easily put down
      > > an older woman who reacted naturally "shocked" when he entered a women's
      > > restroom. Too bad security wasn't called on Klemp for doing this--
      > > maybe, he needs another time out in a mental institution since it doesn't
      > > appear he was cured from his mental unbalance and inappropriate behavior
      > > the first time. Telling chelas on such a large stage that he sometimes tells
      > > Joan to quit talking at home, is really arrogant and disrespectful of the one
      > > he should love and treasure the most--he certainly is displaying male
      > > chauvinism and unloving behavior. Yeah, Klemp talks about a unisex society
      > > but yet the male is still dominant! LOL! I think that Klemp inviting Joan to
      > > share the stage with him, singing her little song, elevated her, but he also
      > > kept her in a subordinate role. Yep, she'll help him keep the power, but he
      > > will still run the show! So, much for equal footing--male/ female! Klemp is
      > > working hard to position Joan as a co-l.e.m. but yet he isn't making it
      > > equal! But it is fun to watch his game. I suppose he doesn't want another
      > > replay like Gail naming Twitchell's replacement- -Klemp would like it to
      > > look more legitimate the next time, in case something happens to him
      > > suddenly! : )
      > >
      > > Anyway . . . on HuChat, Mark wrote:
      >
      > > "I always listen to Harold's talk
      > > as if they were Living Shariyat dreams to be decoded or as
      > > ECK-Vidya tapestries that have an inherent & unity and integration.
      > > Sometimes I think people forget that Harold is not just telling stories
      > > to get a chuckle, that there is a literal Mahanta wave of meaning and
      > > communication going on that penetrates deeper than what is actually
      > > being said when read in transcript. First of all, he's always talking about
      > > us, the ECK initiates, in one way or another. So in that context, WE are
      > > the white-haired lady in the women's restroom that Harold talked about.
      > >
      > > Remember when we used to be ducks? ("I moved the food over here, but
      > > the ducks stayed where they were. I told them the food had moved and
      > > that they would starve if they didn' t move, but they just stayed in the
      > > same place, looking for the food that wasn't there." Remember parables?
      > > Even true stories are parables, especially when they involve Harold and Joan.)
      > > In the restroom story (abbreviated version), Harold and Joan were shopping.
      > > Joan went to the restroom, found a white-haired lady waiting for the
      > > Women's room. The Men's room was not occupied, so Joan asked the
      > > lady why she didn't use it. The women said that it was for men only. Harold
      > > said that he and Joan have a policy of using "any port in the storm. " So Joan
      > > went into the Men's room. Meanwhile, Harold comes along looking for a
      > > restroom, finds the Men's room locked, so he tries the Women's room. It's
      > > unlocked, he enters, and of course the white-haired lady is there. She looks at
      > > him shocked. "But this is the Women's room!" she says. Harold says as
      > > far as he's concerned the restrooms are Unisex. He mused that he wondered
      > > at how the ECK used him to change the state of conciousness of the
      > > white-haired woman.
      > >
      > > This story puts a cap on a particularly nice Living Word aspect of this talk.
      > > I've seen on many occasions how Harold will say something that will tweak
      > > the human consciousness (political or social or eck-related) , then in the same
      > > talk there would be a story that addresses what he tweaks. This is how the
      > > Living Word works. Earlier in his talk when Joan was singing, she got a little
      > > lost in singing the complete song and so it went on longer than it should
      > > have. Harold made a comment about her going on like that, and how
      > > sometimes at home he would have to say something if she talks too long.
      > > It was a very male/female comment. One that tweaked the human
      > > consciousness of some ECKists. I had some come up to me and ask me
      > > my opinion of it. Did I think Harold was being unkind to Joan? It bothered
      > > them. I explained what I have here. That the Mahanta as the Living Word will
      > > often say something that tweaks the human consciousness and then tie it
      > > up later in a story. Not that this was planned. It's just the way of the ECK to
      > > work like this. The Living Word.
      > >
      > > So here we have Harold tweaking us on the male/female thing and then
      > > later tells us a story that tries to remind us not to get stuck in
      > > male/ female categories. That they are fine, but we should not be like
      > > the white-haired lady, stuck in one or the other. We should be thinking
      > > Unisex, SOUL, beyond the categories. Change is Change (the title of the talk).
      > > Harold's story about the song Joan sang and going back to the ORIGINAL
      > > song reminds us that the human consciousness likes to change things. If
      > > you sing the song I posted separately, you may notice that your human
      > > consciousness wants to change it. But as it is, it offers a sublime "spaciousness"
      > > that the mind would wrongly fill. Singing it the original way offers sublime
      > > transport that the changes would destroy. Furthermore, these worlds of
      > > categories complicate things with male/ female categories. The role of the
      > > Mahanta is to offer the "simplifying" change of going & back to the original,
      > > the Word, the HU, the path of ECK that first leads us to Soul then to God
      > > through the Mahanta. He is the agent of change sent by the ECK into our
      > > bathroom to tweak us out of our stuck, white-haired old lady views.
      > > My opinion. Your mileage may vary. Hu Mark_"
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > I especially love the way Mark summed this all up in his last paragraph!
      > > Too funny! Klemp is the agent of change going into all and every public
      > > bathroom regardless of them being for women or men--by golly, Klemp
      > > is going in there and making changes . . . and his chelas are embracing this
      > > idea as they too want to help with the change that obviously can be started
      > > in such a basic and fundalmental places as restrooms. Hey, just remember
      > > if the opposite gender comes into the restroom you are using, don't be
      > > alarmed--it' s not any nut or pervert, it's just a nutty, possibly perverted
      > > eckist! So much for those special, elevated spiritual teachings! : )
      > >
      > > Mish
      >
    • Elizabeth
      Mish wrote: One has to wonder where eckankar would be today if Klemp had never been put in that power position. Even though Twitchell lied about the origins of
      Message 2 of 11 , Nov 5, 2007
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        Mish wrote:
        One has to wonder where eckankar would be today if
        Klemp had never been put in that power position. Even
        though Twitchell lied about the origins of the teachings
        and plagiarized heavily, it doesn't seem that Twitchell
        was mentally unbalanced as Klemp is. 
         
        *** Actually I thought Twitch was mentally ill as well, he was just so convincing in his story and lies that it sounded more believable.  
         
         
        The Nature of Mythomania
         
         
        The following definition is the most comprehensive in describing this phenomenon:
         
        Pathological lying is falsification entirely disproportionate to any discernible end in view engaged in by a person who at the time of observation cannot definitely be declared insane feebleminded or epileptic. Such lying rarely if ever centers about a single event although exhibited in very occasional cases for a short timeit manifests itself most frequently by far over a period of years or even a lifetime. It represents a trait rather than an episode. Extensivevery complicated fabrications may be evolved. This has led to the synonyms: mythomania pseudologia phantastica.5
         
        William and Mary Healy offered this definition in their respected study on the subject. This book is significant for its recognition of the need to look at the pathological liar as a special category of psychological phenomenon. They wrote:
         
        A clear terminology should be adopted. The pathological liar forms a species by himself and as such does not necessarily belong to any of these larger classes.6
         
        A. Delbrücka late nineteenth-century German psychiatrist conducted the earliest studies of this condition. He coined the term “pseudologia phantastica” later adopted by other writers on the subject. Delbrück’s work provided early warnings of the harm such liars cause to families and society in general by their falsifications and deceit. During this same period another German psychiatristKoppencontributed to the analysis of the pathological liar and the nature of the lies he told:
         
        The pathological lie is active in character a whole sequence of experiences is fabricated and the products of fancy brought forward with a certainty that is astonishing. The possibility that the untruth may be at any minute demolished does not abash the liar in the least. Remonstrances against the lies make no impression. On closer inspection we find that the liar is no longer free he has ceased to be master of his own lies the lie has won power over himit has the worth of a real experience. In the final stages of the pathological lie it cannot be differentiated from delusion.7
         
        In an excellent and comprehensive 1997 compilation on mythomaniaits editor asserts:
         
        Deception and truth are polar opposites on a continuum with various degrees of departure from blatant dishonesty to unbending truth. A small dose of duplicity may interfere little with family and social duties. . . . It may either pass unnoticed or receive endorsement within a culturally stipulated range of conduct. By contrast some flagrant falsities that violate cultural codes by their ineptitude absurdity or extravagance . . . Have long attracted the attention of the medical profession.8
         
        Another closely related condition is “ megalomania:”
         
        A psycho pathological condition in which delusional fantasies of wealth poweror omnipotence predominate an obsession with grandiose or extravagant things or actions.9
         
        In an elaboration of pseudologia phantasticaBernard Risch in 1908 noted several important characteristics of pathological liars. He observed that they typically had mental processes similar to those with literary gifts. The same passion and creativity found in novelists poets and playwrights are found in pathological liars. Both are able to forget who what and where they are and create a new and often convincing reality. The difference however is that the artist is creating this reality within a socially acceptable context: we know it is his art to fabricate a reality of sorts for our entertainment. But the pathological liar is an artist without a socially-valued talent his audiences are unaware of their roles in his works. He plies his art to whomever he meets or to whoever reads his creation. He does not distinguish art from reality and wants us to believe that they are one and the same.
         
        Does the Shoe Fit Paul Twitchell?   I found that Ford Johnson has listed several chapters from his book "Confessions"  for those to read concerning Twit and Eckankrap:    http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/Excerpts.asp
         
         
         
         Anyway, I'm catching up on all of the interesting messages concerning the EWWS, and this Unisex bathroom topic....    If a bathroom is in fact Unisex, it will state it right on the front door.  Usually only one toilet is available, and there is a lock on the door to keep perverts like Klemp out!   Maybe Klemp and his FLEM have gender identity issues of their own, and wish to bring this out of the closet via the toilet story....    Klemp is really a female trapped in a male body, and Joan is a man trapped in a female body?   Looks like the rolls of LEM and FLEM are being slowly reversed and introduced to the members.   <wink wink>
         
        Mish and Prometheus has been right all along about these two lunatics!     
      • mishmisha9
        Hi, Liz! You re correct about Twitchell exhibiting the characteristics of someone suffering from mythomania, and thanks for adding the info about this illness.
        Message 3 of 11 , Nov 5, 2007
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          Hi, Liz!

          You're correct about Twitchell exhibiting the characteristics
          of someone suffering from mythomania, and thanks for
          adding the info about this illness. But the unbalances are
          significantly different with Klemp who seems to have a
          mixture of more than one. Additionally, Klemp also lacks the
          charisma that Twitchell had and which is probably why
          so many old time eckists, from Twitchell's day, lament
          so much about the teachings and continue to embrace the
          older writings of Twitchell's rather than resonating as
          well with Klemp's.

          Klemp's focus on bathroom use seems to resemble his
          airport behavior of disrobing--something is wrong with him.
          As for unisex bathrooms--yes, they do exist and are
          properly marked, sometimes actually saying "family." These
          are usually situated by themselves. In other words, a unisex
          bathroom would not be located next to a men's bathroom or
          women's bathroom or by both. And a unisex will have a lock
          on the door as it accommodates one person at a time, so
          how Klemp could possibly have thought an unlocked
          women's restroom equated to unisex is wrong thinking and
          seems a perversion for him to think he could enter such an
          unlocked bathroom, confront the white haired lady and act
          as though she was thinking wrong??? I believe that if he
          continues to push his way into women's bathrooms because
          he can't hold his urine a few minutes longer (which might
          suggest a medical problem for both him and Joan?), that he
          will eventually run into some trouble. Bathrooms are privacy
          rooms and these two nutters, Klemp and Joan are intruding.
          Their world must be awfully small for them to focus on such
          behavior and equate it to some sort of spiritually uplifting
          experience. Additionally, from some of the other posts that
          eckists are writing in response to Klemp's bathroom story, it
          seems that these gullible and easily manipulated chelas are
          are now smiling and humming hu when using public restrooms--
          especially if they find one that is not marked either or! LOL!
          Even one eckist posted that she had a bathroom experience
          after the talk-- accidentally going into the men's room
          where men were standing at urinals. She thought it was both
          funny, and spiritual! LOL!

          Klemp's feeble attempt of using public bathrooms to promote
          a unisex consciousness is just his lack luster way of trying to
          pave the way for Joan into a higher position in the eck org--to
          validate his plan to position her next to him in authority. He has
          written in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters" that the time is right for
          more female eck masters to reveal themselves. He also wrote in
          this book a couple chela dream stories depicting Joan assisting chelas
          in connecting with Klemp, which he also explains in his book is
          a function of eck masters--helping people to connect with the
          mahanta. It seems that Klemp is moving forward with his plans
          to secure Joan in a bigger and more important role in the org.
          Chelas are now debating what it means concerning male vs
          female--so phase one of operation co-l.e.m. is now in action.
          Klemp is proceeding with his plans. He is doing for Joan what
          Twitchell failed to do for Gail. It is Klemp's way of holding the
          power as long as he can and assure that his books and writings will
          not hit the dumpsters as happened with Darwin Gross! But in the
          end, no matter what Klemp does, what will happen to his legacy
          will be out of his control. If eckankar survives beyond Klemp, I
          predict that much of Klemp's crap will be discarded as chelas
          cleanse themselves of the insane delusion and brainwashing Klemp
          has inflicted upon them. : )

          Mish



          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
          "Elizabeth" <ewickings@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Mish wrote:
          > One has to wonder where eckankar would be today if
          > Klemp had never been put in that power position. Even
          > though Twitchell lied about the origins of the teachings
          > and plagiarized heavily, it doesn't seem that Twitchell
          > was mentally unbalanced as Klemp is.
          >
          > *** Actually I thought Twitch was mentally ill as well, he was just so
          > convincing in his story and lies that it sounded more believable.
          >
          >
          > The Nature of Mythomania
          >
          >
          > The following definition is the most comprehensive in describing this
          > phenomenon:
          >
          > Pathological lying is falsification entirely disproportionate to any
          > discernible end in view engaged in by a person who at the time of
          > observation cannot definitely be declared insane feebleminded or epileptic.
          > Such lying rarely if ever centers about a single event although exhibited in
          > very occasional cases for a short timeit manifests itself most frequently by
          > far over a period of years or even a lifetime. It represents a trait rather
          > than an episode. Extensivevery complicated fabrications may be evolved. This
          > has led to the synonyms: mythomania pseudologia phantastica.5
          >
          > William and Mary Healy offered this definition in their respected study on
          > the subject. This book is significant for its recognition of the need to
          > look at the pathological liar as a special category of psychological
          > phenomenon. They wrote:
          >
          > A clear terminology should be adopted. The pathological liar forms a species
          > by himself and as such does not necessarily belong to any of these larger
          > classes.6
          >
          > A. Delbrücka late nineteenth-century German psychiatrist conducted the
          > earliest studies of this condition. He coined the term "pseudologia
          > phantastica" later adopted by other writers on the subject. Delbrück's work
          > provided early warnings of the harm such liars cause to families and society
          > in general by their falsifications and deceit. During this same period
          > another German psychiatristKoppencontributed to the analysis of the
          > pathological liar and the nature of the lies he told:
          >
          > The pathological lie is active in character a whole sequence of experiences
          > is fabricated and the products of fancy brought forward with a certainty
          > that is astonishing. The possibility that the untruth may be at any minute
          > demolished does not abash the liar in the least. Remonstrances against the
          > lies make no impression. On closer inspection we find that the liar is no
          > longer free he has ceased to be master of his own lies the lie has won power
          > over himit has the worth of a real experience. In the final stages of the
          > pathological lie it cannot be differentiated from delusion.7
          >
          > In an excellent and comprehensive 1997 compilation on mythomaniaits editor
          > asserts:
          >
          > Deception and truth are polar opposites on a continuum with various degrees
          > of departure from blatant dishonesty to unbending truth. A small dose of
          > duplicity may interfere little with family and social duties. . . . It may
          > either pass unnoticed or receive endorsement within a culturally stipulated
          > range of conduct. By contrast some flagrant falsities that violate cultural
          > codes by their ineptitude absurdity or extravagance . . . Have long
          > attracted the attention of the medical profession.8
          >
          > Another closely related condition is " megalomania:"
          >
          > A psycho pathological condition in which delusional fantasies of wealth
          > poweror omnipotence predominate an obsession with grandiose or extravagant
          > things or actions.9
          >
          > In an elaboration of pseudologia phantasticaBernard Risch in 1908 noted
          > several important characteristics of pathological liars. He observed that
          > they typically had mental processes similar to those with literary gifts.
          > The same passion and creativity found in novelists poets and playwrights are
          > found in pathological liars. Both are able to forget who what and where they
          > are and create a new and often convincing reality. The difference however is
          > that the artist is creating this reality within a socially acceptable
          > context: we know it is his art to fabricate a reality of sorts for our
          > entertainment. But the pathological liar is an artist without a
          > socially-valued talent his audiences are unaware of their roles in his works
          > He plies his art to whomever he meets or to whoever reads his creation. He
          > does not distinguish art from reality and wants us to believe that they are
          > one and the same.
          >
          > Does the Shoe Fit Paul Twitchell? I found that Ford Johnson has listed
          > several chapters from his book "Confessions" for those to read concerning
          > Twit and Eckankrap: http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/Excerpts.asp
          >
          >
          >
          > Anyway, I'm catching up on all of the interesting messages concerning the
          > EWWS, and this Unisex bathroom topic.... If a bathroom is in fact Unisex,
          > it will state it right on the front door. Usually only one toilet is
          > available, and there is a lock on the door to keep perverts like Klemp out!
          > Maybe Klemp and his FLEM have gender identity issues of their own, and wish
          > to bring this out of the closet via the toilet story.... Klemp is really
          > a female trapped in a male body, and Joan is a man trapped in a female body?
          > Looks like the rolls of LEM and FLEM are being slowly reversed and
          > introduced to the members. <wink wink>
          >
          > Mish and Prometheus has been right all along about these two lunatics!
          >
        • prometheus_973
          Isn t it true that ECKists are told: A Miracle Is A Changed Consciousness? Klemp stated that he changed the White Haired Lady s Consciousness, therefore, he
          Message 4 of 11 , Nov 10, 2007
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            Isn't it true that ECKists are told: A Miracle Is
            A Changed Consciousness? Klemp stated that he
            "changed" the White Haired Lady's Consciousness,
            therefore, he created A Miracle! If only she knew!

            Isn't it interesting that Klemp doesn't define "Miracle"
            in his Lexicon! WHY Not? HK defines "consciousness"
            but does Not mention "miracles" or "change!" Instead,
            Klemp mentions the "Dhyanic" and "ECK" consciousness
            (pg.32) but only defines Dhyan and Dhyana (pg.47)
            and Not the ECK Consciousness! Also, Dhyan and Dhyana
            only refers to seeing the LEM or Master on the Inner
            Planes versus seeing or meeting the Mahanta on the Inner!


            [BTW - I GOOGLED: A Miracle is a Changed Consciousness
            and found this (below). It's kind of interesting... WHY can't
            Klemp come up with something like this? Didn't Klemp (the
            LEM/Mahanta) get into the International Who's Who of
            Intellectuals via "writing" dozens of books (and paying a
            fee)? So, WHY didn't Klemp come up with a book like this
            instead of running into a Women's Restroom and declaring
            "Restrooms are Unisex!"]

            Prometheus

            *****************************************************
            Make Your Own Miracle

            Miracles don't happen to you; they happen through
            you. An astonishing new book, Shortcut to a Miracle,
            reveals how to get from where you are... to where
            you've barely dared to dream about going.

            Ever noticed how the things you want most seem a
            billion light years away? Perhaps you wait tables but
            dream of performing oon Broadway. Or you've tried
            to have a baby for years but pregnancy eludes you.
            Or you long to meet your Soul Mate but figure that
            at the age of 65, you're doomed to spend your (so-called)
            Golden Years alone. Whatever your "impossible dream"
            might be, reaching it would take a miracle. And since
            you don't believe in miracles--or at least you don't
            believe one's coming your way--you've pretty much
            resigned yourself to a life of back-breaking, low-paying
            work . . . or childlessness . . . or lonely bachhelorhood.

            Don't give up yet. Spiritual counselors Michael C. Rann
            and Elizabeth Rann Arrott say that not only is your miracle
            possible, it is your birthright. In their new book Shortcut
            to a Miracle: How to Change Your Consciousness and
            Transform Your Life (Jeffers Press, September 2005,
            ISBN: 0-9745776-8-5, $14.95), they build a convincing
            case that you can experience your own miracles by working
            with some astonishing natural principles that scientists
            are just beginning to understand.



            "Most people think that a miracle is an event that
            runs counter to the laws of nature and that is 'bestowed'
            from above," say Rann and Arrott. "That's misleading.
            Miracles are perfectly natural. They are results of the
            Universe working the way it's intended to work. Furthermore,
            the person we think of as the recipient of a miracle is actually
            the co-creator of that miracle. We are wired for miracles.
            All we have to do is learn how to help them unfold."

            To provide a foundation for their assertion, the
            authors delve into the staggering new science of
            quantum physics. The very characteristics of the quantum
            world suggest that there is no separation, no dividing
            line between consciousness (thought) and physical form
            or manifestation. We are one with the Universe and part
            of it. We actually participate in its operation--and it
            responds to us.

            In other words, in tandem with the Power and Intelligence
            that created the Universe, you actually co-create your
            own reality.

            All thought is creative, both positive thought and
            negative thought. The key to having miracles manifest
            in your life is to know that miracles can happen, and
            they can happen for you. It's that simple--but the authors
            admit that simple and easy are not synonymous. (If they
            were, everyone would be living rich, rewarding, happy
            lives.) To change your life, you must change the way
            you think. That requires discipline and practice.

            Shortcut to a Miracle outlines what you can do to create
            your miracle, and supports its assertions with dozens
            of real-life stories about those who have found success
            using the principles the authors set forth. Here are just
            a few insights from the book:

            Adopt the Miracle-Making Attitude. The frame of
            mind that allows miracles to unfold is comprised of
            five elements. Doubt in any one of these areas can
            have a negative impact on the manifestation of your
            miracle:

            1. Miracles unfold according to Universal Law. Begin
            right now to know that miracles do not happen by
            chance. They are no more random or capricious than,
            for example, the Law of Gravity that holds the universe
            together.

            2. Your miracle is possible. Any time you question
            whether the miracle you desire is possible, think about
            this awesome universe, and ask yourself if the
            incomprehensible Intelligence and Power responsible
            for creating this universe isn't far more than enough
            to also bring into your life whatever it is that you need
            or desire.

            3. Your miracle is never too big. You may wonder
            whether what you want or think you need is "too big."
            It is not too big! Ralph Waldo Emerson said it best,
            "There is no large or small to the Soul that maketh all."

            4. You play a major role in bringing about your
            miracle. You may wonder, "If it can happen, do
            I have any part in making it happen, or allowing
            it to happen?" Yes. It happens through you, not to
            you. Your part has to do with your belief, and your
            belief is the result of your thinking.

            5. You deserve miracles in your life. The final
            question you may have is, "Do I deserve to have
            something this good happen?" The answer is an
            unqualified yes! You deserve miracles because
            the Power and the Intelligence that created the
            universe also created you to live and enjoy life
            as fully and completely as you choose.

            Stop "squirrel caging." What is squirrel caging?
            It's a form of negative habitual thinking when
            you go over the same thing in your mind repeatedly
            --again and again--around and around and around.
            (Think of a squirrel running in a paddle-wheel-type
            cage, getting nowhere.) TThe three areas where people
            tend to squirrel cage are:

            when we feel wronged or insulted when we make a
            mistake or otherwise embarrass ourselves when we
            take a strong dislike to someone and begin mentally
            criticizing everything they do.

            Understand that when you begin squirrel caging,
            you are actually blocking your miracle. A simple,
            direct statement that helps many people to stop
            squirrel caging is, "I don't need that anymore."
            This statement stops the cycle and allows normal
            thinking to resume. Then you can begin to take charge
            of your thinking by focusing on what you want--
            your miracle--instead of what you don't want.

            Understand the 51 percent rule. One of the biggest
            impediments to having a miracle in your life is the
            fear that you might not get the miracle that you
            desire. We water down our Miracle-Making Attitude
            with thoughts like: "What if I don't get another job
            and I lose the house?" "What if the diagnosis is positive?"
            "What if . . ." "What if . . ." It goes on and on.

            It's important not to back off from what you want
            because you're afraid you might not get it. Think of
            faith and fear as being opposite ends of the same
            continuum. The more afraid we are of some future
            event, the more fearful we become. The greater
            our expectancy of good, however, the stronger
            our faith. The important point is that we don't
            need 100 percent faith--all we need is 51 percent
            faith, and our lives begin to turn in the right direction.

            Don't be discouraged if things appear to get
            worse before they get better. Paradoxically, it's
            not uncommon for a positive change in our lives
            to be preceded by a chaotic period in which a
            number of unsettling things take place. When
            you have begun the mental and emotional process
            that allows a miracle to move into your life, you
            will experience a clearing in consciousness. This
            process often involves the shifting around of many
            things and many patterns in your life. It actually
            ties in with what is known in quantum physics as
            chaos theory. Just remember that, no matter what
            it looks like, beneath any chaotic appearance lies
            order and harmony. Stay focused on your miracle
            and not on unfavorable circumstances.

            Ultimately, say Rann and Arrott, the more you
            align your thinking with what you want, the more
            fully empowered you become, and the more transformed
            your life becomes.

            "The wonderful truth is that in the process of getting
            your miracle, you're opening the door to other miracles,"
            they assert. "When you work toward a miracle in one
            area of your life--your health for instance--you actually
            lay the groundwork for miracles in the other areas,
            namely, prosperity, success, and relationships."

            "You will discover a whole new life that's richer, fuller,
            and more abundant than you ever thought possible,"
            the authors add. "Even your problems become steppingstones
            rather than obstacles. If it sounds too good to be true,
            I assure you that it is not. I've seen it happen again
            and again. Start today. You will find that you are
            supported in your choice by a loving Presence that
            provides--without question and all the time--all you
            could ever want or need."

            Spiritual counselors Michael C. Rann and Elizabeth Rann
            Arrott have spent more than sixty years, combined, examining
            the laws of miracles, their operation and application. This
            groundbreaking book is the culmination of their lifework.
            Michael is director of the Science of Mind Center in Chicago.
            Elizabeth is director of the Science of Mind Center in Evanston,
            Illinois.
            *****************************************************

            misha wrote:
            >
            >
            > For those of you wondering what great pearls of wisdom came out
            > of Klemp's recent talk at the eckankar world wide seminar, Mark
            > Alexander has shared some of his impressions of
            > Klemp's speak, calling it "The Living Word." BTW, I find Mark's babbling
            > to be more of his own discomfort in what Klemp said--that he, too,
            > must have been troubled by Klemp's message just as well as the eckists
            > who came up to him afterwards questioning some of Klemp's remarks.
            >
            > Before reading Mark's post, here's few of my thoughts on what he shared.
            >
            > 1. The bathroom story seems recycled as I read something similar in one
            > of Klemp's transcripts years ago . . . unless Klemp still has a thing about
            > bathrooms. It's odd he is directing chelas to do some vahana work in public
            > restrooms now! Personally the whole bathroom talk, Unisex comments,
            > raising a white haired lady's consciousness, etc. is really quite
            > weird--but what can one expect from a guy who disrobed in an airport.
            > Klemp was out of balance then, and he still is out of balance!
            >
            > 2. It seems too that he doesn't like women, especially white haired ones!
            > I have to wonder if he loved his mother--or he wouldn't so easily put down
            > an older woman who reacted naturally "shocked" when he entered a women's
            > restroom. Too bad security wasn't called on Klemp for doing this--
            > maybe, he needs another time out in a mental institution since it doesn't
            > appear he was cured from his mental unbalance and inappropriate behavior
            > the first time. Telling chelas on such a large stage that he sometimes tells
            > Joan to quit talking at home, is really arrogant and disrespectful of the one
            > he should love and treasure the most--he certainly is displaying male
            > chauvinismand unloving behavior. Yeah,Klemp talks about a unisex society
            > but yet the male is still dominant! LOL! I think that Klemp inviting Joan to
            > share the stage with him, singing her little song, elevated her, but he also
            > kept her in a subordinate role. Yep, she'll help him keep the power, but he
            > will still run the show! So, much for equal footing--male/ female! Klemp is
            > working hard to position Joan as a co-l.e.m. but yet he isn't making it
            > equal! But it is fun to watch his game. I suppose he doesn't want another
            > replay like Gail naming Twitchell's replacement- -Klemp would like it to
            > look more legitimate the next time, in case something happens to him
            > suddenly! : )
            >
            > Anyway . . . on HuChat, Mark wrote:

            > "I always listen to Harold's talk
            > as if they were Living Shariyat dreams to be decoded or as
            > ECK-Vidya tapestries that have an inherent & unity and integration.
            > Sometimes I think people forget that Harold is not just telling stories
            > to get a chuckle, that there is a literal Mahanta wave of meaning and
            > communication going on that penetrates deeper than what is actually
            > being said when read in transcript. First of all, he's always talking about
            > us, the ECK initiates, in one way or another. So in that context, WE are
            > the white-haired lady in the women's restroom that Harold talked about.
            >
            > Remember when we used to be ducks? ("I moved the food over here, but
            > the ducks stayed where they were. I told them the food had moved and
            > that they would starve if they didn' t move, but they just stayed in the
            > same place, looking for the food that wasn't there." Remember parables?
            > Even true stories are parables, especially when they involve Harold and Joan.)
            > In the restroom story (abbreviated version), Harold and Joan were shopping.
            > Joan went to the restroom, found a white-haired lady waiting for the
            > Women's room. The Men's room was not occupied, so Joan asked the
            > lady why she didn't use it. The women said that it was for men only. Harold
            > said that he and Joan have a policy of using "any port in the storm. " So Joan
            > went into the Men's room. Meanwhile, Harold comes along looking for a
            > restroom, finds the Men's room locked, so he tries the Women's room. It's
            > unlocked, he enters, and of course the white-haired lady is there. She looks at
            > him shocked. "But this is the Women's room!" she says. Harold says as
            > far as he's concerned the restrooms are Unisex. He mused that he wondered
            > at how the ECK used him to change the state of conciousness of the
            > white-haired woman.
            >
            > This story puts a cap on a particularly nice Living Word aspect of this talk.
            > I've seen on many occasions how Harold will say something that will tweak
            > the human consciousness (political or social or eck-related) , then in the same
            > talk there would be a story that addresses what he tweaks. This is how the
            > Living Word works. Earlier in his talk when Joan was singing, she got a little
            > lost in singing the complete song and so it went on longer than it should
            > have. Harold made a comment about her going on like that, and how
            > sometimes at home he would have to say something if she talks too long.
            > It was a very male/female comment. One that tweaked the human
            > consciousness of some ECKists. I had some come up to me and ask me
            > my opinion of it. Did I think Harold was being unkind to Joan? It bothered
            > them. I explained what I have here. That the Mahanta as the Living Word will
            > often say something that tweaks the human consciousness and then tie it
            > up later in a story. Not that this was planned. It's just the way of the ECK to
            > work like this. The Living Word.
            >
            > So here we have Harold tweaking us on the male/female thing and then
            > later tells us a story that tries to remind us not to get stuck in
            > male/ female categories. That they are fine, but we should not be like
            > the white-haired lady, stuck in one or the other. We should be thinking
            > Unisex, SOUL, beyond the categories. Change is Change (the title of the talk).
            > Harold's story about the song Joan sang and going back to the ORIGINAL
            > song reminds us that the human consciousness likes to change things. If
            > you sing the song I posted separately, you may notice that your human
            > consciousness wants to change it. But as it is, it offers a sublime "spaciousness"
            > that the mind would wrongly fill. Singing it the original way offers sublime
            > transport that the changes would destroy. Furthermore, these worlds of
            > categories complicate things with male/ female categories. The role of the
            > Mahanta is to offer the "simplifying" change of going & back to the original,
            > the Word, the HU, the path of ECK that first leads us to Soul then to God
            > through the Mahanta. He is the agent of change sent by the ECK into our
            > bathroom to tweak us out of our stuck, white-haired old lady views.
            > My opinion. Your mileage may vary. Hu Mark_"
            >
            > I especially love the way Mark summed this all up in his last paragraph!
            > Too funny! Klemp is the agent of change going into all and every public
            > bathroom regardless of them being for women or men--by golly, Klemp
            > is going in there and making changes . . . and his chelas are embracing this
            > idea as they too want to help with the change that obviously can be started
            > in such a basic and fundalmental places as restrooms. Hey, just remember
            > if the opposite gender comes into the restroom you are using, don't be
            > alarmed--it' s not any nut or pervert, it's just a nutty, possibly perverted
            > eckist! So much for those special, elevated spiritual teachings! : )
            >
            > Mish
            >
          • prometheus_973
            In the 12/2007 Mystic World Sharon Kunin s article is Damage Control for Klemp s 2007 EWWS RESTROOMS ARE UNISEX comments! Sharon s article begins on page 1
            Message 5 of 11 , Dec 23, 2007
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              In the 12/2007 Mystic World Sharon Kunin's
              article is Damage Control for Klemp's 2007
              EWWS "RESTROOMS ARE UNISEX" comments!

              Sharon's article begins on page 1 and is titled,
              "A Year of Blessing." On page 7 Sharon states
              that Klemp walked into the women's restroom
              where:

              "... he (HK) encountered a very alarmed
              white-haired woman standing at the sink.
              Excusing himself, Sri Harold returned to the
              men's room just as Joan emerged..."

              Now how does this... Oh! er excuse me madame!
              "Change" her consciousness? What happened to
              "Restrooms Are Unisex!"

              Or, did HK follow the Law of Silence and whispered
              or whimpered to himself, under his breath, Restrooms
              Should Be (are) Unisex Damnit! I Have Spoken!!!
              Maybe Klemp only shared his thoughts of what he
              wanted to say to that "Alarmed" white-haired woman?
              Maybe it was all made-up and he lied that he had said
              anything.

              Maybe this is what Sharon is really pointing out. Klemp
              lied to ECKists at the 2007 EWWS and never told that
              woman that Restrooms Are Unisex!

              I guess that the Holocaust didn't happen either!

              Or maybe, the Klemp's, the ESC and RESA Police
              are trying to re-write ECKANKAR History with this
              Damage Control! Almost everyone was embarrassed
              by Klemp's stupid comments and this generated
              a reaction of mass disapproval by the more sane ECKists!

              Although HK is out-of-control the EK Board can't
              do anything about it like they did with Gross! They
              allowed Klemp to restructure things giving himself
              sole authority. Too bad so sad! But what goes around
              comes around... that's karma isn't it?! LOL!

              I wonder what ECKists are thinking about this
              rewrite by Sharon Kunin which was approved
              of by both Joan and Harold? Do they think that
              this will make things better or that HK's nutty
              comments will all go away? I'll bet the tape of
              that talk gets edited along with the written version
              of it in the next Mahanta Transcripts!

              If there wasn't anything to hide (change)...
              Why Are They Doing This?!

              Let's just "change" Truth into Fiction... this seems
              to be the ECKANKAR way of viewing life! Or, maybe
              ECKists like Mark just "imagined" they saw and heard
              the Mahanta when it was actually the KAL!

              Prometheus
              p.s. HK's comments to Joan to "hush-up" weren't
              appreciated either by ECKists!


              On HuChat, Mark Alexander wrote:

              "I always listen to Harold's talk as if they were Living
              Shariyat dreams... Sometimes I think people forget that
              Harold is not just telling stories to get a chuckle, that
              there is a literal Mahanta... WE are the white-haired lady
              in the women's restroom that Harold talked about...

              Even true stories are parables, especially when they involve
              Harold and Joan.

              In the restroom story (abbreviated version), Harold and
              Joan were shopping. Joan went to the restroom, found a
              white-haired lady waiting for the Women's room. The Men's
              room was not occupied, so Joan asked the lady why she
              didn't use it. The women said that it was for men only.

              Harold said that he and Joan have a policy of using
              'any port in the storm.' So Joan went into the Men's room.
              Meanwhile, Harold comes along looking for a restroom,
              finds the Men's room locked, so he tries the Women's room.
              It's unlocked, he enters, and of course the white-haired lady
              is there. She looks at him shocked. 'But this is the Women's room!'
              she says.

              HAROLD SAYS AS FAR AS HE'S CONCERNED THE RESTROOMS
              ARE UNISEX. HE MUSED THAT HE WONDERED AT HOW THE
              ECK USED HIM TO CHANGE THE STATE OF CONSCIOUSNESS
              OF THE WHITE-HAIRED WOMAN.

              This story puts a cap on a particularly nice Living Word
              aspect of this talk. I've seen on many occasions how Harold
              will say something that will tweak the human consciousness
              (political or social or eck-related) , then in the same talk there
              would be a story that addresses what he tweaks. This is how the
              Living Word works.

              Earlier in his talk when Joan was singing, she got a little
              lost in singing the complete song and so it went on longer
              than it should have. Harold made a comment about her
              going on like that, and how sometimes at home he would
              have to say something if she talks too long. It was a very male/
              female comment...

              So here we have Harold tweaking us on the male/female
              thing and then later tells us a story that tries to remind us
              not to get stuck in male/ female categories. That they are fine,
              but we should not be like the white-haired lady, stuck in one
              or the other. We should be thinking Unisex, SOUL, beyond
              the categories. Change is Change (the title of the talk)... the
              Mahanta. He is the agent of change sent by the ECK into our
              bathroom to tweak us out of our stuck, white-haired old lady
              views. My opinion. Your mileage may vary. Hu Mark_"


              misha wrote:

              For those of you wondering what great pearls of wisdom
              came out of Klemp's recent talk at the eckankar world wide
              seminar, Mark Alexander has shared some of his impressions
              of Klemp's speak, calling it "The Living Word." BTW, I find
              Mark's babbling to be more of his own discomfort in what
              Klemp said--that he, too, must have been troubled by Klemp's
              message just as well as the eckists who came up to him afterwards
              questioning some of Klemp's remarks.
              > >
              here's few of my thoughts on what he shared.
              > >

              1. The bathroom story seems recycled as I read something
              similar in one of Klemp's transcripts years ago . . . unless
              Klemp still has a thing about bathrooms. It's odd he is directing
              chelas to do some vahana work in public restrooms now!

              Personally the whole bathroom talk, Unisex comments,
              raising a white haired lady's consciousness, etc. is really
              quite weird--but what can one expect from a guy who
              disrobed in an airport. Klemp was out of balance then, and
              he still is out of balance!
              > >

              2. It seems too that he doesn't like women, especially white
              haired ones! I have to wonder if he loved his mother--or he
              wouldn't so easily put down an older woman who reacted naturally
              "shocked" when he entered a women's restroom. Too bad security
              wasn't called on Klemp for doing this--maybe, he needs another
              time out in a mental institution since it doesn't appear he was
              cured from his mental unbalance and inappropriate behavior
              the first time.

              Telling chelas on such a large stage that he sometimes tells
              Joan to quit talking at home, is really arrogant and disrespectful
              of the one he should love and treasure the most--he certainly
              is displaying male chauvinism and unloving behavior. Yeah,
              Klemp talks about a unisex society but yet the male is still
              dominant! LOL!

              I think that Klemp inviting Joan to share the stage with him,
              singing her little song, elevated her, but he also kept her in
              a subordinate role. Yep, she'll help him keep the power, but
              he will still run the show! So, much for equal footing--male/
              female! Klemp is working hard to position Joan as a co-l.e.m.
              but yet he isn't making it equal! But it is fun to watch his game.
              I suppose he doesn't want another replay like Gail naming Twitchell's
              replacement- -Klemp would like it to look more legitimate the
              next time, in case something happens to him suddenly! : )
              > >

              Anyway . . .
              I especially love the way Mark summed this all up in his last
              paragraph! Too funny! Klemp is the agent of change going
              into all and every public bathroom regardless of them being
              for women or men--by golly, Klemp is going in there and
              making changes . . . and his chelas are embracing this
              idea as they too want to help with the change that obviously
              can be started in such a basic and fundalmental places as
              restrooms. Hey, just remember if the opposite gender comes
              into the restroom you are using, don't be alarmed--it' s not
              any nut or pervert, it's just a nutty, possibly perverted
              eckist! So much for those special, elevated spiritual teachings! : )

              Mish
            • prometheus_973
              Doesn t it seem like there is a Lack of Communication between these two (Harry & Joan), as well as, a problem with bladder control (lower chakra health)! One s
              Message 6 of 11 , Dec 26, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                Doesn't it seem like there is a Lack of Communication
                between these two (Harry & Joan), as well as, a problem
                with bladder control (lower chakra health)! One's a 14th
                Initiate and the other a 9th Initiate and yet most average
                couples (non-Eckists) communicate better and are more
                capable than these two goofs!

                Can't HK go into the men's restroom with Joan?! Sure! And,
                where's that "inner (and outer) communication" to Know where
                Joan is? Where's the Mahanta's "intuition" and "insight" for Harry
                Not to know the men's room was locked because Joan was in there!

                Is the Mahanta Consciousness limited to KNOWING these things!
                It's ridiculous! Klemp is a mini-master scammer! One can see the
                "proof in the pudding" that ECK Initiations are Bogus! Would this
                comedy of errors happen to Rebazar? Would Rebazar get "punked"
                by the KAL? Of course Not!

                Klemp is Not a real Master anyway, and Rebazar is a fictional
                character created by Twitchell in order to "initiate" himself!

                Plus, just read the stupid stories sent to The Mystic World,
                H.I. Letter, and RESA Star! These H.I.s are talking about
                really basic stuff as though it's a revelation in consciousness
                and a miracle due to the Mahanta interceding for them! One
                can read these same type of stories, if not better or greater
                ones and examples of faith, from other religions that Eckankar
                views as lesser (lower) spiritual paths! Eckists really need to
                get out more with non-Eckists and read more non-Eck books.
                And, everyone really need to take people off those pedestals...
                no one should be placed Higher (or lower) than Oneself!

                Prometheus

                prometheus wrote:
                >
                > In the 12/2007 Mystic World Sharon Kunin's
                > article is Damage Control for Klemp's 2007
                > EWWS "RESTROOMS ARE UNISEX" comments!
                >
                > Sharon's article begins on page 1 and is titled,
                > "A Year of Blessing." On page 7 Sharon states
                > that Klemp walked into the women's restroom
                > where:

                ***
                "... he (HK) encountered a very alarmed
                white-haired woman standing at the sink.
                Excusing himself, SRI HAROLD RETURNED TO
                THE MEN'S ROOM JUST AS JOAN EMERGED..."
                ***

                > Now how does this... Oh! er excuse me madame!
                > "Change" her consciousness? What happened to
                > "Restrooms Are Unisex!"
                >
                > Or, did HK follow the Law of Silence and whispered
                > or whimpered to himself, under his breath, Restrooms
                > Should Be (are) Unisex Damnit! I Have Spoken!!!
                > Maybe Klemp only shared his thoughts of what he
                > wanted to say to that "Alarmed" white-haired woman?
                > Maybe it was all made-up and he lied that he had said
                > anything.
                >
                > Maybe this is what Sharon is really pointing out. Klemp
                > lied to ECKists at the 2007 EWWS and never told that
                > woman that Restrooms Are Unisex!
                >
                > I guess that the Holocaust didn't happen either!
                >
                > Or maybe, the Klemp's, the ESC and RESA Police
                > are trying to re-write ECKANKAR History with this
                > Damage Control! Almost everyone was embarrassed
                > by Klemp's stupid comments and this generated
                > a reaction of mass disapproval by the more sane ECKists!
                >
                > Although HK is out-of-control the EK Board can't
                > do anything about it like they did with Gross! They
                > allowed Klemp to restructure things giving himself
                > sole authority. Too bad so sad! But what goes around
                > comes around... that's karma isn't it?! LOL!
                >
                > I wonder what ECKists are thinking about this
                > rewrite by Sharon Kunin which was approved
                > of by both Joan and Harold? Do they think that
                > this will make things better or that HK's nutty
                > comments will all go away? I'll bet the tape of
                > that talk gets edited along with the written version
                > of it in the next Mahanta Transcripts!
                >
                > If there wasn't anything to hide (change)...
                > Why Are They Doing This?!
                >
                > Let's just "change" Truth into Fiction... this seems
                > to be the ECKANKAR way of viewing life! Or, maybe
                > ECKists like Mark just "imagined" they saw and heard
                > the Mahanta when it was actually the KAL!
                >
                > Prometheus
                > p.s. HK's comments to Joan to "hush-up" weren't
                > appreciated either by ECKists!
                >
                >
                > On HuChat, Mark Alexander wrote:
                >
                > "I always listen to Harold's talk as if they were Living
                > Shariyat dreams... Sometimes I think people forget that
                > Harold is not just telling stories to get a chuckle, that
                > there is a literal Mahanta... WE are the white-haired lady
                > in the women's restroom that Harold talked about...
                >
                > Even true stories are parables, especially when they involve
                > Harold and Joan.
                >
                > In the restroom story (abbreviated version), Harold and
                > Joan were shopping. Joan went to the restroom, found a
                > white-haired lady waiting for the Women's room. The Men's
                > room was not occupied, so Joan asked the lady why she
                > didn't use it. The women said that it was for men only.
                >
                > Harold said that he and Joan have a policy of using
                > 'any port in the storm.' So Joan went into the Men's room.
                > Meanwhile, Harold comes along looking for a restroom,
                > finds the Men's room locked, so he tries the Women's room.
                > It's unlocked, he enters, and of course the white-haired lady
                > is there. She looks at him shocked. 'But this is the Women's room!'
                > she says.
                >
                > HAROLD SAYS AS FAR AS HE'S CONCERNED THE RESTROOMS
                > ARE UNISEX. HE MUSED THAT HE WONDERED AT HOW THE
                > ECK USED HIM TO CHANGE THE STATE OF CONSCIOUSNESS
                > OF THE WHITE-HAIRED WOMAN.
                >
                > This story puts a cap on a particularly nice Living Word
                > aspect of this talk. I've seen on many occasions how Harold
                > will say something that will tweak the human consciousness
                > (political or social or eck-related) , then in the same talk there
                > would be a story that addresses what he tweaks. This is how the
                > Living Word works.
                >
                > Earlier in his talk when Joan was singing, she got a little
                > lost in singing the complete song and so it went on longer
                > than it should have. Harold made a comment about her
                > going on like that, and how sometimes at home he would
                > have to say something if she talks too long. It was a very male/
                > female comment...
                >
                > So here we have Harold tweaking us on the male/female
                > thing and then later tells us a story that tries to remind us
                > not to get stuck in male/ female categories. That they are fine,
                > but we should not be like the white-haired lady, stuck in one
                > or the other. We should be thinking Unisex, SOUL, beyond
                > the categories. Change is Change (the title of the talk)... the
                > Mahanta. He is the agent of change sent by the ECK into our
                > bathroom to tweak us out of our stuck, white-haired old lady
                > views. My opinion. Your mileage may vary. Hu Mark_"
                >
                >
                > misha wrote:
                >
                > For those of you wondering what great pearls of wisdom
                > came out of Klemp's recent talk at the eckankar world wide
                > seminar, Mark Alexander has shared some of his impressions
                > of Klemp's speak, calling it "The Living Word." BTW, I find
                > Mark's babbling to be more of his own discomfort in what
                > Klemp said--that he, too, must have been troubled by Klemp's
                > message just as well as the eckists who came up to him afterwards
                > questioning some of Klemp's remarks.
                > > >
                > here's few of my thoughts on what he shared.
                > > >
                >
                > 1. The bathroom story seems recycled as I read something
                > similar in one of Klemp's transcripts years ago . . . unless
                > Klemp still has a thing about bathrooms. It's odd he is directing
                > chelas to do some vahana work in public restrooms now!
                >
                > Personally the whole bathroom talk, Unisex comments,
                > raising a white haired lady's consciousness, etc. is really
                > quite weird--but what can one expect from a guy who
                > disrobed in an airport. Klemp was out of balance then, and
                > he still is out of balance!
                > > >
                >
                > 2. It seems too that he doesn't like women, especially white
                > haired ones! I have to wonder if he loved his mother--or he
                > wouldn't so easily put down an older woman who reacted naturally
                > "shocked" when he entered a women's restroom. Too bad security
                > wasn't called on Klemp for doing this--maybe, he needs another
                > time out in a mental institution since it doesn't appear he was
                > cured from his mental unbalance and inappropriate behavior
                > the first time.
                >
                > Telling chelas on such a large stage that he sometimes tells
                > Joan to quit talking at home, is really arrogant and disrespectful
                > of the one he should love and treasure the most--he certainly
                > is displaying male chauvinism and unloving behavior. Yeah,
                > Klemp talks about a unisex society but yet the male is still
                > dominant! LOL!
                >
                > I think that Klemp inviting Joan to share the stage with him,
                > singing her little song, elevated her, but he also kept her in
                > a subordinate role. Yep, she'll help him keep the power, but
                > he will still run the show! So, much for equal footing--male/
                > female! Klemp is working hard to position Joan as a co-l.e.m.
                > but yet he isn't making it equal! But it is fun to watch his game.
                > I suppose he doesn't want another replay like Gail naming Twitchell's
                > replacement- -Klemp would like it to look more legitimate the
                > next time, in case something happens to him suddenly! : )
                > > >
                >
                > Anyway . . .
                > I especially love the way Mark summed this all up in his last
                > paragraph! Too funny! Klemp is the agent of change going
                > into all and every public bathroom regardless of them being
                > for women or men--by golly, Klemp is going in there and
                > making changes . . . and his chelas are embracing this
                > idea as they too want to help with the change that obviously
                > can be started in such a basic and fundalmental places as
                > restrooms. Hey, just remember if the opposite gender comes
                > into the restroom you are using, don't be alarmed--it' s not
                > any nut or pervert, it's just a nutty, possibly perverted
                > eckist! So much for those special, elevated spiritual teachings! : )
                >
                > Mish
                >
              • mishmisha9
                Hi, All! I think I already mentioned in another post regarding HK s bathroom stunt EWWS talk story, that HK has told similar bathroom stories in the past
                Message 7 of 11 , Dec 28, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi, All!

                  I think I already mentioned in another post regarding HK's
                  bathroom "stunt" EWWS talk story, that HK has told similar
                  bathroom stories in the past where Joan and/or he will go
                  into the opposite gender restrooms due to their impatience of
                  waiting until the proper restroom is available or their own
                  poor timing in going off to take care of their basic needs!
                  Why HK and Joan think this is appropriate and acceptable
                  behavior is really amusing as many would think it perverted
                  and maybe would report them to store security. LOL!

                  Anyway, it seems for HK, the highlights of his day are such
                  activities. His life is so mundune and so uninspiring that he
                  grasps for any kind of event to make it sound inspirational--
                  such as going into the opposite gender public restrooms,
                  disturbing a white haired lady, and hooking this weirdness into
                  some sort of change is change story for chelas to learn from! : )

                  It is very revealing that Sharon Kunin has written her own
                  condensed version of HK's talk, leaving out some "important"
                  details from Mark Alexander's eye witness account. I wonder
                  why Sharon Kunin has down played the bathroom story and
                  omitted some key elements? I wonder how the master of the
                  universe HK feels about the alteration of his story? It seems
                  this re-write by Sharon Kunin indicates some other eck org
                  higher ups also have a problem with the story as told by HK--
                  and perhaps they are in agreement with some of the perspectives
                  that we on ESA have regarding wily-nilly use of public restrooms!
                  Do you think HK has embarrassed his inner circle of H.I. friends?
                  Seems like it, doesn't it, with Sharon Kunin (Doug's wife) taking
                  on this re-telling?

                  Meanwhile, HK and Joan should change their bathroom habits--
                  like not waiting too long before finding a restroom for use or
                  maybe they need to see a "real" doctor to discuss their
                  incontinent problems! If not a physical defect, then a good
                  psychologist might be able to figure out why HK has such
                  bathroom fetishes--probably goes back to his childhood toilet
                  training? It might be why the white haired (mother figure) lady
                  is so significant to HK's story???

                  But in the meantime, the eck org continues to re-write their
                  history, even recent history such as HK's EWWS talk in order
                  for it to filter better out to the duped chelas and the general
                  public who might stumble onto this whacky religious cult!
                  Change is change but it doesn't need to be implemented in
                  public restrooms! I shudder to think at what other crazy little
                  ideas/thoughts will spill out of HK's mouth next! But when
                  chelas take this bathroom story so seriously and try to do as
                  the mahanta does, well, it just shows how following anyone,
                  cult leader/hero, can take one down a slippery slope of
                  unreasonable thinking and behaviors. : )

                  Mish



                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                  "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Doesn't it seem like there is a Lack of Communication
                  > between these two (Harry & Joan), as well as, a problem
                  > with bladder control (lower chakra health)! One's a 14th
                  > Initiate and the other a 9th Initiate and yet most average
                  > couples (non-Eckists) communicate better and are more
                  > capable than these two goofs!
                  >
                  > Can't HK go into the men's restroom with Joan?! Sure! And,
                  > where's that "inner (and outer) communication" to Know where
                  > Joan is? Where's the Mahanta's "intuition" and "insight" for Harry
                  > Not to know the men's room was locked because Joan was in there!
                  >
                  > Is the Mahanta Consciousness limited to KNOWING these things!
                  > It's ridiculous! Klemp is a mini-master scammer! One can see the
                  > "proof in the pudding" that ECK Initiations are Bogus! Would this
                  > comedy of errors happen to Rebazar? Would Rebazar get "punked"
                  > by the KAL? Of course Not!
                  >
                  > Klemp is Not a real Master anyway, and Rebazar is a fictional
                  > character created by Twitchell in order to "initiate" himself!
                  >
                  > Plus, just read the stupid stories sent to The Mystic World,
                  > H.I. Letter, and RESA Star! These H.I.s are talking about
                  > really basic stuff as though it's a revelation in consciousness
                  > and a miracle due to the Mahanta interceding for them! One
                  > can read these same type of stories, if not better or greater
                  > ones and examples of faith, from other religions that Eckankar
                  > views as lesser (lower) spiritual paths! Eckists really need to
                  > get out more with non-Eckists and read more non-Eck books.
                  > And, everyone really need to take people off those pedestals...
                  > no one should be placed Higher (or lower) than Oneself!
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                  > prometheus wrote:
                  > >
                  > > In the 12/2007 Mystic World Sharon Kunin's
                  > > article is Damage Control for Klemp's 2007
                  > > EWWS "RESTROOMS ARE UNISEX" comments!
                  > >
                  > > Sharon's article begins on page 1 and is titled,
                  > > "A Year of Blessing." On page 7 Sharon states
                  > > that Klemp walked into the women's restroom
                  > > where:
                  >
                  > ***
                  > "... he (HK) encountered a very alarmed
                  > white-haired woman standing at the sink.
                  > Excusing himself, SRI HAROLD RETURNED TO
                  > THE MEN'S ROOM JUST AS JOAN EMERGED..."
                  > ***
                  >
                  > > Now how does this... Oh! er excuse me madame!
                  > > "Change" her consciousness? What happened to
                  > > "Restrooms Are Unisex!"
                  > >
                  > > Or, did HK follow the Law of Silence and whispered
                  > > or whimpered to himself, under his breath, Restrooms
                  > > Should Be (are) Unisex Damnit! I Have Spoken!!!
                  > > Maybe Klemp only shared his thoughts of what he
                  > > wanted to say to that "Alarmed" white-haired woman?
                  > > Maybe it was all made-up and he lied that he had said
                  > > anything.
                  > >
                  > > Maybe this is what Sharon is really pointing out. Klemp
                  > > lied to ECKists at the 2007 EWWS and never told that
                  > > woman that Restrooms Are Unisex!
                  > >
                  > > I guess that the Holocaust didn't happen either!
                  > >
                  > > Or maybe, the Klemp's, the ESC and RESA Police
                  > > are trying to re-write ECKANKAR History with this
                  > > Damage Control! Almost everyone was embarrassed
                  > > by Klemp's stupid comments and this generated
                  > > a reaction of mass disapproval by the more sane ECKists!
                  > >
                  > > Although HK is out-of-control the EK Board can't
                  > > do anything about it like they did with Gross! They
                  > > allowed Klemp to restructure things giving himself
                  > > sole authority. Too bad so sad! But what goes around
                  > > comes around... that's karma isn't it?! LOL!
                  > >
                  > > I wonder what ECKists are thinking about this
                  > > rewrite by Sharon Kunin which was approved
                  > > of by both Joan and Harold? Do they think that
                  > > this will make things better or that HK's nutty
                  > > comments will all go away? I'll bet the tape of
                  > > that talk gets edited along with the written version
                  > > of it in the next Mahanta Transcripts!
                  > >
                  > > If there wasn't anything to hide (change)...
                  > > Why Are They Doing This?!
                  > >
                  > > Let's just "change" Truth into Fiction... this seems
                  > > to be the ECKANKAR way of viewing life! Or, maybe
                  > > ECKists like Mark just "imagined" they saw and heard
                  > > the Mahanta when it was actually the KAL!
                  > >
                  > > Prometheus
                  > > p.s. HK's comments to Joan to "hush-up" weren't
                  > > appreciated either by ECKists!
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > On HuChat, Mark Alexander wrote:
                  > >
                  > > "I always listen to Harold's talk as if they were Living
                  > > Shariyat dreams... Sometimes I think people forget that
                  > > Harold is not just telling stories to get a chuckle, that
                  > > there is a literal Mahanta... WE are the white-haired lady
                  > > in the women's restroom that Harold talked about...
                  > >
                  > > Even true stories are parables, especially when they involve
                  > > Harold and Joan.
                  > >
                  > > In the restroom story (abbreviated version), Harold and
                  > > Joan were shopping. Joan went to the restroom, found a
                  > > white-haired lady waiting for the Women's room. The Men's
                  > > room was not occupied, so Joan asked the lady why she
                  > > didn't use it. The women said that it was for men only.
                  > >
                  > > Harold said that he and Joan have a policy of using
                  > > 'any port in the storm.' So Joan went into the Men's room.
                  > > Meanwhile, Harold comes along looking for a restroom,
                  > > finds the Men's room locked, so he tries the Women's room.
                  > > It's unlocked, he enters, and of course the white-haired lady
                  > > is there. She looks at him shocked. 'But this is the Women's room!'
                  > > she says.
                  > >
                  > > HAROLD SAYS AS FAR AS HE'S CONCERNED THE RESTROOMS
                  > > ARE UNISEX. HE MUSED THAT HE WONDERED AT HOW THE
                  > > ECK USED HIM TO CHANGE THE STATE OF CONSCIOUSNESS
                  > > OF THE WHITE-HAIRED WOMAN.
                  > >
                  > > This story puts a cap on a particularly nice Living Word
                  > > aspect of this talk. I've seen on many occasions how Harold
                  > > will say something that will tweak the human consciousness
                  > > (political or social or eck-related) , then in the same talk there
                  > > would be a story that addresses what he tweaks. This is how the
                  > > Living Word works.
                  > >
                  > > Earlier in his talk when Joan was singing, she got a little
                  > > lost in singing the complete song and so it went on longer
                  > > than it should have. Harold made a comment about her
                  > > going on like that, and how sometimes at home he would
                  > > have to say something if she talks too long. It was a very male/
                  > > female comment...
                  > >
                  > > So here we have Harold tweaking us on the male/female
                  > > thing and then later tells us a story that tries to remind us
                  > > not to get stuck in male/ female categories. That they are fine,
                  > > but we should not be like the white-haired lady, stuck in one
                  > > or the other. We should be thinking Unisex, SOUL, beyond
                  > > the categories. Change is Change (the title of the talk)... the
                  > > Mahanta. He is the agent of change sent by the ECK into our
                  > > bathroom to tweak us out of our stuck, white-haired old lady
                  > > views. My opinion. Your mileage may vary. Hu Mark_"
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > misha wrote:
                  > >
                  > > For those of you wondering what great pearls of wisdom
                  > > came out of Klemp's recent talk at the eckankar world wide
                  > > seminar, Mark Alexander has shared some of his impressions
                  > > of Klemp's speak, calling it "The Living Word." BTW, I find
                  > > Mark's babbling to be more of his own discomfort in what
                  > > Klemp said--that he, too, must have been troubled by Klemp's
                  > > message just as well as the eckists who came up to him afterwards
                  > > questioning some of Klemp's remarks.
                  > > > >
                  > > here's few of my thoughts on what he shared.
                  > > > >
                  > >
                  > > 1. The bathroom story seems recycled as I read something
                  > > similar in one of Klemp's transcripts years ago . . . unless
                  > > Klemp still has a thing about bathrooms. It's odd he is directing
                  > > chelas to do some vahana work in public restrooms now!
                  > >
                  > > Personally the whole bathroom talk, Unisex comments,
                  > > raising a white haired lady's consciousness, etc. is really
                  > > quite weird--but what can one expect from a guy who
                  > > disrobed in an airport. Klemp was out of balance then, and
                  > > he still is out of balance!
                  > > > >
                  > >
                  > > 2. It seems too that he doesn't like women, especially white
                  > > haired ones! I have to wonder if he loved his mother--or he
                  > > wouldn't so easily put down an older woman who reacted naturally
                  > > "shocked" when he entered a women's restroom. Too bad security
                  > > wasn't called on Klemp for doing this--maybe, he needs another
                  > > time out in a mental institution since it doesn't appear he was
                  > > cured from his mental unbalance and inappropriate behavior
                  > > the first time.
                  > >
                  > > Telling chelas on such a large stage that he sometimes tells
                  > > Joan to quit talking at home, is really arrogant and disrespectful
                  > > of the one he should love and treasure the most--he certainly
                  > > is displaying male chauvinism and unloving behavior. Yeah,
                  > > Klemp talks about a unisex society but yet the male is still
                  > > dominant! LOL!
                  > >
                  > > I think that Klemp inviting Joan to share the stage with him,
                  > > singing her little song, elevated her, but he also kept her in
                  > > a subordinate role. Yep, she'll help him keep the power, but
                  > > he will still run the show! So, much for equal footing--male/
                  > > female! Klemp is working hard to position Joan as a co-l.e.m.
                  > > but yet he isn't making it equal! But it is fun to watch his game.
                  > > I suppose he doesn't want another replay like Gail naming Twitchell's
                  > > replacement- -Klemp would like it to look more legitimate the
                  > > next time, in case something happens to him suddenly! : )
                  > > > >
                  > >
                  > > Anyway . . .
                  > > I especially love the way Mark summed this all up in his last
                  > > paragraph! Too funny! Klemp is the agent of change going
                  > > into all and every public bathroom regardless of them being
                  > > for women or men--by golly, Klemp is going in there and
                  > > making changes . . . and his chelas are embracing this
                  > > idea as they too want to help with the change that obviously
                  > > can be started in such a basic and fundalmental places as
                  > > restrooms. Hey, just remember if the opposite gender comes
                  > > into the restroom you are using, don't be alarmed--it' s not
                  > > any nut or pervert, it's just a nutty, possibly perverted
                  > > eckist! So much for those special, elevated spiritual teachings! : )
                  > >
                  > > Mish
                  > >
                  >
                • prometheus_973
                  Hi Mish and All, It looks to me like Joan and Sharon (others too?) planned to do some Damage Control without Harry knowing what they were up to. I know HK read
                  Message 8 of 11 , Dec 28, 2007
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                    Hi Mish and All,
                    It looks to me like Joan and Sharon (others too?) planned
                    to do some Damage Control without Harry knowing what
                    they were up to. I know HK read and approved Sharon's
                    article, but I don't think he noticed WHY it was written
                    with certain details omitted.

                    Afterall, the title of HK's talk was "Change is Change"
                    and Klemp states that he "changed" the white-haired
                    woman's consciousness! And, HK said (to all ECKists)
                    that as far as he was concerned, "Restrooms Are Unisex!"

                    Klemp states at the end of his 12/2007 WISDOM NOTES:
                    "It's all about consciousness; it's all about love."

                    What happened to the Law of Non-Interference? How
                    "loving" was Klemp to this white-haired woman when
                    he "alarmed" her and invaded her private space?

                    According to Sharon Kunin HK just excused himself to
                    the woman and left. How did this "change her consciousness"
                    or show "love?" HK states that "It's all about consciousness"
                    and "love," but WHY did HK claim to Interfere with the Current
                    State of the Woman's Consciousness Without Her Permission?

                    Don't Black Magicians or agents of the KAL manipulate
                    or "change" people without their permission? Sure!

                    Another thing! HK only states that he "Changed" the woman's
                    consciousness BUT doesn't say in Which direction, or in What
                    way! Will she now go and jump off the I-35 bridge! Did she
                    (a non-ECKist) receive God Realization by the Restroom
                    Mahanta!

                    Yes, it seems that Joan and Sharon (Doug and other Board
                    members too?) decided to do a seminar recap with certain
                    embarrassing details left out. I wonder what Harry will think
                    about that now that it's been pointed out?!

                    Prometheus
                    ********************************************************
                    Sharon Kunin's 12/2007 EK Mystic World article begins
                    on page 1 and is titled, "A Year of Blessing." On page
                    7 Sharon states that Harold Klemp (the Mahanta) walked
                    into the women's restroom where:

                    "... he (HK) encountered a very alarmed
                    white-haired woman standing at the sink.
                    Excusing himself, SRI HAROLD RETURNED TO
                    THE MEN'S ROOM JUST AS JOAN EMERGED..."

                    Mark A. shares his notes of HK's 2007 EWWS talk on HU-Chat:

                    "HAROLD SAYS AS FAR AS HE'S CONCERNED THE RESTROOMS
                    ARE UNISEX. HE MUSED THAT HE WONDERED AT HOW THE
                    ECK USED HIM TO CHANGE THE STATE OF CONSCIOUSNESS
                    OF THE WHITE-HAIRED WOMAN...

                    EARLIER IN HIS TALK WHEN JOAN WAS SINGING, SHE GOT
                    A LITTLE LOST IN SINGING THE COMPLETE SONG AND SO
                    IT WENT ON LONGER THAN IT SHOULD HAVE. HAROLD MADE
                    A COMMENT ABOUT HER GOING ON LIKE THAT, AND HOW
                    SOMETIMES AT HOME HE WOULD HAVE TO SAY SOMETHING
                    IF SHE TALKS TOO LONG. IT WAS A VERY MALE/FEMALE
                    COMMENT..."

                    ***************************************************************

                    mish wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi, All!
                    >
                    > I think I already mentioned in another post regarding HK's
                    > bathroom "stunt" EWWS talk story, that HK has told similar
                    > bathroom stories in the past where Joan and/or he will go
                    > into the opposite gender restrooms due to their impatience of
                    > waiting until the proper restroom is available or their own
                    > poor timing in going off to take care of their basic needs!
                    > Why HK and Joan think this is appropriate and acceptable
                    > behavior is really amusing as many would think it perverted
                    > and maybe would report them to store security. LOL!
                    >
                    > Anyway, it seems for HK, the highlights of his day are such
                    > activities. His life is so mundune and so uninspiring that he
                    > grasps for any kind of event to make it sound inspirational--
                    > such as going into the opposite gender public restrooms,
                    > disturbing a white haired lady, and hooking this weirdness into
                    > some sort of change is change story for chelas to learn from! : )
                    >
                    > It is very revealing that Sharon Kunin has written her own
                    > condensed version of HK's talk, leaving out some "important"
                    > details from Mark Alexander's eye witness account. I wonder
                    > why Sharon Kunin has down played the bathroom story and
                    > omitted some key elements? I wonder how the master of the
                    > universe HK feels about the alteration of his story? It seems
                    > this re-write by Sharon Kunin indicates some other eck org
                    > higher ups also have a problem with the story as told by HK--
                    > and perhaps they are in agreement with some of the perspectives
                    > that we on ESA have regarding wily-nilly use of public restrooms!
                    > Do you think HK has embarrassed his inner circle of H.I. friends?
                    > Seems like it, doesn't it, with Sharon Kunin (Doug's wife) taking
                    > on this re-telling?
                    >
                    > Meanwhile, HK and Joan should change their bathroom habits--
                    > like not waiting too long before finding a restroom for use or
                    > maybe they need to see a "real" doctor to discuss their
                    > incontinent problems! If not a physical defect, then a good
                    > psychologist might be able to figure out why HK has such
                    > bathroom fetishes--probably goes back to his childhood toilet
                    > training? It might be why the white haired (mother figure) lady
                    > is so significant to HK's story???
                    >
                    > But in the meantime, the eck org continues to re-write their
                    > history, even recent history such as HK's EWWS talk in order
                    > for it to filter better out to the duped chelas and the general
                    > public who might stumble onto this whacky religious cult!
                    > Change is change but it doesn't need to be implemented in
                    > public restrooms! I shudder to think at what other crazy little
                    > ideas/thoughts will spill out of HK's mouth next! But when
                    > chelas take this bathroom story so seriously and try to do as
                    > the mahanta does, well, it just shows how following anyone,
                    > cult leader/hero, can take one down a slippery slope of
                    > unreasonable thinking and behaviors. : )
                    >
                    > Mish
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                    > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Doesn't it seem like there is a Lack of Communication
                    > > between these two (Harry & Joan), as well as, a problem
                    > > with bladder control (lower chakra health)! One's a 14th
                    > > Initiate and the other a 9th Initiate and yet most average
                    > > couples (non-Eckists) communicate better and are more
                    > > capable than these two goofs!
                    > >
                    > > Can't HK go into the men's restroom with Joan?! Sure! And,
                    > > where's that "inner (and outer) communication" to Know where
                    > > Joan is? Where's the Mahanta's "intuition" and "insight" for Harry
                    > > Not to know the men's room was locked because Joan was in there!
                    > >
                    > > Is the Mahanta Consciousness limited to KNOWING these things!
                    > > It's ridiculous! Klemp is a mini-master scammer! One can see the
                    > > "proof in the pudding" that ECK Initiations are Bogus! Would this
                    > > comedy of errors happen to Rebazar? Would Rebazar get "punked"
                    > > by the KAL? Of course Not!
                    > >
                    > > Klemp is Not a real Master anyway, and Rebazar is a fictional
                    > > character created by Twitchell in order to "initiate" himself!
                    > >
                    > > Plus, just read the stupid stories sent to The Mystic World,
                    > > H.I. Letter, and RESA Star! These H.I.s are talking about
                    > > really basic stuff as though it's a revelation in consciousness
                    > > and a miracle due to the Mahanta interceding for them! One
                    > > can read these same type of stories, if not better or greater
                    > > ones and examples of faith, from other religions that Eckankar
                    > > views as lesser (lower) spiritual paths! Eckists really need to
                    > > get out more with non-Eckists and read more non-Eck books.
                    > > And, everyone really need to take people off those pedestals...
                    > > no one should be placed Higher (or lower) than Oneself!
                    > >
                    > > Prometheus
                    > >
                    > > prometheus wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > In the 12/2007 Mystic World Sharon Kunin's
                    > > > article is Damage Control for Klemp's 2007
                    > > > EWWS "RESTROOMS ARE UNISEX" comments!
                    > > >
                    > > > Sharon's article begins on page 1 and is titled,
                    > > > "A Year of Blessing." On page 7 Sharon states
                    > > > that Klemp walked into the women's restroom
                    > > > where:
                    > >
                    > > ***
                    > > "... he (HK) encountered a very alarmed
                    > > white-haired woman standing at the sink.
                    > > Excusing himself, SRI HAROLD RETURNED TO
                    > > THE MEN'S ROOM JUST AS JOAN EMERGED..."
                    > > ***
                    > >
                    > > > Now how does this... Oh! er excuse me madame!
                    > > > "Change" her consciousness? What happened to
                    > > > "Restrooms Are Unisex!"
                    > > >
                    > > > Or, did HK follow the Law of Silence and whispered
                    > > > or whimpered to himself, under his breath, Restrooms
                    > > > Should Be (are) Unisex Damnit! I Have Spoken!!!
                    > > > Maybe Klemp only shared his thoughts of what he
                    > > > wanted to say to that "Alarmed" white-haired woman?
                    > > > Maybe it was all made-up and he lied that he had said
                    > > > anything.
                    > > >
                    > > > Maybe this is what Sharon is really pointing out. Klemp
                    > > > lied to ECKists at the 2007 EWWS and never told that
                    > > > woman that Restrooms Are Unisex!
                    > > >
                    > > > I guess that the Holocaust didn't happen either!
                    > > >
                    > > > Or maybe, the Klemp's, the ESC and RESA Police
                    > > > are trying to re-write ECKANKAR History with this
                    > > > Damage Control! Almost everyone was embarrassed
                    > > > by Klemp's stupid comments and this generated
                    > > > a reaction of mass disapproval by the more sane ECKists!
                    > > >
                    > > > Although HK is out-of-control the EK Board can't
                    > > > do anything about it like they did with Gross! They
                    > > > allowed Klemp to restructure things giving himself
                    > > > sole authority. Too bad so sad! But what goes around
                    > > > comes around... that's karma isn't it?! LOL!
                    > > >
                    > > > I wonder what ECKists are thinking about this
                    > > > rewrite by Sharon Kunin which was approved
                    > > > of by both Joan and Harold? Do they think that
                    > > > this will make things better or that HK's nutty
                    > > > comments will all go away? I'll bet the tape of
                    > > > that talk gets edited along with the written version
                    > > > of it in the next Mahanta Transcripts!
                    > > >
                    > > > If there wasn't anything to hide (change)...
                    > > > Why Are They Doing This?!
                    > > >
                    > > > Let's just "change" Truth into Fiction... this seems
                    > > > to be the ECKANKAR way of viewing life! Or, maybe
                    > > > ECKists like Mark just "imagined" they saw and heard
                    > > > the Mahanta when it was actually the KAL!
                    > > >
                    > > > Prometheus
                    > > > p.s. HK's comments to Joan to "hush-up" weren't
                    > > > appreciated either by ECKists!
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > On HuChat, Mark Alexander wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > "I always listen to Harold's talk as if they were Living
                    > > > Shariyat dreams... Sometimes I think people forget that
                    > > > Harold is not just telling stories to get a chuckle, that
                    > > > there is a literal Mahanta... WE are the white-haired lady
                    > > > in the women's restroom that Harold talked about...
                    > > >
                    > > > Even true stories are parables, especially when they involve
                    > > > Harold and Joan.
                    > > >
                    > > > In the restroom story (abbreviated version), Harold and
                    > > > Joan were shopping. Joan went to the restroom, found a
                    > > > white-haired lady waiting for the Women's room. The Men's
                    > > > room was not occupied, so Joan asked the lady why she
                    > > > didn't use it. The women said that it was for men only.
                    > > >
                    > > > Harold said that he and Joan have a policy of using
                    > > > 'any port in the storm.' So Joan went into the Men's room.
                    > > > Meanwhile, Harold comes along looking for a restroom,
                    > > > finds the Men's room locked, so he tries the Women's room.
                    > > > It's unlocked, he enters, and of course the white-haired lady
                    > > > is there. She looks at him shocked. 'But this is the Women's room!'
                    > > > she says.
                    > > >
                    > > > HAROLD SAYS AS FAR AS HE'S CONCERNED THE RESTROOMS
                    > > > ARE UNISEX. HE MUSED THAT HE WONDERED AT HOW THE
                    > > > ECK USED HIM TO CHANGE THE STATE OF CONSCIOUSNESS
                    > > > OF THE WHITE-HAIRED WOMAN.
                    > > >
                    > > > This story puts a cap on a particularly nice Living Word
                    > > > aspect of this talk. I've seen on many occasions how Harold
                    > > > will say something that will tweak the human consciousness
                    > > > (political or social or eck-related) , then in the same talk there
                    > > > would be a story that addresses what he tweaks. This is how the
                    > > > Living Word works.
                    > > >
                    > > > Earlier in his talk when Joan was singing, she got a little
                    > > > lost in singing the complete song and so it went on longer
                    > > > than it should have. Harold made a comment about her
                    > > > going on like that, and how sometimes at home he would
                    > > > have to say something if she talks too long. It was a very male/
                    > > > female comment...
                    > > >
                    > > > So here we have Harold tweaking us on the male/female
                    > > > thing and then later tells us a story that tries to remind us
                    > > > not to get stuck in male/ female categories. That they are fine,
                    > > > but we should not be like the white-haired lady, stuck in one
                    > > > or the other. We should be thinking Unisex, SOUL, beyond
                    > > > the categories. Change is Change (the title of the talk)... the
                    > > > Mahanta. He is the agent of change sent by the ECK into our
                    > > > bathroom to tweak us out of our stuck, white-haired old lady
                    > > > views. My opinion. Your mileage may vary. Hu Mark_"
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > misha wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > For those of you wondering what great pearls of wisdom
                    > > > came out of Klemp's recent talk at the eckankar world wide
                    > > > seminar, Mark Alexander has shared some of his impressions
                    > > > of Klemp's speak, calling it "The Living Word." BTW, I find
                    > > > Mark's babbling to be more of his own discomfort in what
                    > > > Klemp said--that he, too, must have been troubled by Klemp's
                    > > > message just as well as the eckists who came up to him afterwards
                    > > > questioning some of Klemp's remarks.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > here's few of my thoughts on what he shared.
                    > > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > 1. The bathroom story seems recycled as I read something
                    > > > similar in one of Klemp's transcripts years ago . . . unless
                    > > > Klemp still has a thing about bathrooms. It's odd he is directing
                    > > > chelas to do some vahana work in public restrooms now!
                    > > >
                    > > > Personally the whole bathroom talk, Unisex comments,
                    > > > raising a white haired lady's consciousness, etc. is really
                    > > > quite weird--but what can one expect from a guy who
                    > > > disrobed in an airport. Klemp was out of balance then, and
                    > > > he still is out of balance!
                    > > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > 2. It seems too that he doesn't like women, especially white
                    > > > haired ones! I have to wonder if he loved his mother--or he
                    > > > wouldn't so easily put down an older woman who reacted naturally
                    > > > "shocked" when he entered a women's restroom. Too bad security
                    > > > wasn't called on Klemp for doing this--maybe, he needs another
                    > > > time out in a mental institution since it doesn't appear he was
                    > > > cured from his mental unbalance and inappropriate behavior
                    > > > the first time.
                    > > >
                    > > > Telling chelas on such a large stage that he sometimes tells
                    > > > Joan to quit talking at home, is really arrogant and disrespectful
                    > > > of the one he should love and treasure the most--he certainly
                    > > > is displaying male chauvinism and unloving behavior. Yeah,
                    > > > Klemp talks about a unisex society but yet the male is still
                    > > > dominant! LOL!
                    > > >
                    > > > I think that Klemp inviting Joan to share the stage with him,
                    > > > singing her little song, elevated her, but he also kept her in
                    > > > a subordinate role. Yep, she'll help him keep the power, but
                    > > > he will still run the show! So, much for equal footing--male/
                    > > > female! Klemp is working hard to position Joan as a co-l.e.m.
                    > > > but yet he isn't making it equal! But it is fun to watch his game.
                    > > > I suppose he doesn't want another replay like Gail naming Twitchell's
                    > > > replacement- -Klemp would like it to look more legitimate the
                    > > > next time, in case something happens to him suddenly! : )
                    > > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Anyway . . .
                    > > > I especially love the way Mark summed this all up in his last
                    > > > paragraph! Too funny! Klemp is the agent of change going
                    > > > into all and every public bathroom regardless of them being
                    > > > for women or men--by golly, Klemp is going in there and
                    > > > making changes . . . and his chelas are embracing this
                    > > > idea as they too want to help with the change that obviously
                    > > > can be started in such a basic and fundalmental places as
                    > > > restrooms. Hey, just remember if the opposite gender comes
                    > > > into the restroom you are using, don't be alarmed--it' s not
                    > > > any nut or pervert, it's just a nutty, possibly perverted
                    > > > eckist! So much for those special, elevated spiritual teachings! : )
                    > > >
                    > > > Mish
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • prometheus_973
                    Practical Skepticism is Based on Common Sense [David Hume]. Shouldn t ECKists take a Common Sense approach to what they read, see, and hear coming from their
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jan 2, 2008
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                      "Practical Skepticism is Based on Common Sense"
                      [David Hume]. Shouldn't ECKists take a Common
                      Sense approach to what they read, see, and hear
                      coming from their "ECK" Leaders and Mahanta?!


                      From Wikipedia:

                      Formal logic, as most people learn it, is deductive
                      rather than inductive. Some philosophers claim to
                      have created systems of inductive logic, but it is
                      controversial whether a logic of induction is even
                      possible. In contrast to deductive reasoning, conclusions
                      arrived at by inductive reasoning do not necessarily
                      have the same degree of certainty as the initial premises.

                      For example, a conclusion that all swans are white is
                      false, but may have been thought true in Europe until
                      the settlement of Australia, when Black Swans were
                      discovered. Inductive arguments are never binding
                      but they may be cogent. Inductive reasoning is deductively
                      invalid. (An argument in formal logic is valid if and only
                      if it is not possible for the premises of the argument to
                      be true whilst the conclusion is false.) In induction there
                      are always many conclusions that can reasonably be related
                      to certain premises. Inductions are open; deductions are
                      closed.

                      It is however possible to derive a true statement
                      using inductive reasoning if you know the conclusion.
                      The only way to have an efficient argument by induction
                      is for the known conclusion to be able to be true only
                      if an unstated external conclusion is true, from which
                      the initial conclusion was built and has certain criteria
                      to be met in order to be true (separate from the stated
                      conclusion).

                      By substitution of one conclusion for the other, you
                      can inductively find out what evidence you need in
                      order for your induction to be true. For example,
                      you have a window that opens only one way, but
                      not the other. Assuming that you know that the only
                      way for that to happen is that the hinges are faulty,
                      inductively you can postulate that the only way for
                      that window to be fixed would be to apply oil (whatever
                      will fix the unstated conclusion). From there on you
                      can successfully build your case.

                      However, if your unstated conclusion is false, which
                      can only be proven by deductive reasoning, then your
                      whole argument by induction collapses. Thus ultimately,
                      pure inductive reasoning does not exist.

                      The classic philosophical treatment of the problem
                      of induction, meaning the search for a justification
                      for inductive reasoning, was by the Scottish philosopher
                      David Hume. Hume highlighted the fact that our everyday
                      reasoning depends on patterns of repeated experience
                      rather than deductively valid arguments. For example,
                      we believe that bread will nourish us because it has
                      done so in the past, but this is not a guarantee that it
                      will always do so.

                      As Hume said, someone who insisted on sound
                      deductive justifications for everything would starve
                      to death.

                      Instead of approaching everything with unproductive
                      skepticism, Hume advocated a practical skepticism
                      based on common sense, where the inevitability of
                      induction is accepted.

                      Induction is sometimes framed as reasoning about
                      the future from the past, but in its broadest sense it
                      involves reaching conclusions about unobserved things
                      on the basis of what has been observed. Inferences
                      about the past from present evidence – for instance,
                      as in archaeology, count as induction. Induction could
                      also be across space rather than time, for instance as
                      in physical cosmology where conclusions about the
                      whole universe are drawn from the limited perspective
                      we are able to observe (see cosmic variance); or in
                      economics, where national economic policy is derived
                      from local economic performance.

                      Twentieth-century philosophy has approached induction
                      very differently. Rather than a choice about what predictions
                      to make about the future, induction can be seen as a choice
                      of what concepts to fit to observations or of how to graph
                      or represent a set of observed data.

                      Nelson Goodman posed a "new riddle of induction"
                      by inventing the property "grue" to which induction
                      does not apply. [end]

                      prometheus wrote:
                      >
                      > Doesn't it seem like there is a Lack of Communication
                      > between these two (Harry & Joan), as well as, a problem
                      > with bladder control (lower chakra health)! One's a 14th
                      > Initiate and the other a 9th Initiate and yet most average
                      > couples (non-Eckists) communicate better and are more
                      > capable than these two goofs!
                      >
                      > Can't HK go into the men's restroom with Joan?! Sure! And,
                      > where's that "inner (and outer) communication" to Know where
                      > Joan is? Where's the Mahanta's "intuition" and "insight" for Harry
                      > Not to know the men's room was locked because Joan was in there!
                      >
                      > Is the Mahanta Consciousness limited to KNOWING these things!
                      > It's ridiculous! Klemp is a mini-master scammer! One can see the
                      > "proof in the pudding" that ECK Initiations are Bogus! Would this
                      > comedy of errors happen to Rebazar? Would Rebazar get "punked"
                      > by the KAL? Of course Not!
                      >
                      [EDIT]
                      > Klemp is Not a real Master anyway, and Rebazar is a fictional
                      > character created by Twitchell in order to "initiate" himself!
                      > Is "imagination" proof, especially, someone else's? Why believe
                      > that Twitchell was incapable of lying about Eckankar when he
                      > lied about his birth date, Who's Who info, etc.? Use Common Sense!
                      > Klemp is also a liar, as well as, deluded because he knows he's
                      > no God-man let alone the Highest! Yet, he promotes himself
                      > as the highest authority over all!

                      > Plus, just read the stupid stories sent to The Mystic World,
                      > H.I. Letter, and RESA Star! These H.I.s are talking about
                      > really basic stuff as though it's a revelation in consciousness
                      > and a miracle due to the Mahanta interceding for them! One
                      > can read these same type of stories, if not better or greater
                      > ones and examples of faith, from other religions that Eckankar
                      > views as lesser (lower) spiritual paths! Eckists really need to
                      > get out more with non-Eckists and read more non-Eck books.
                      > And, everyone really need to take people off those pedestals...
                      > no one should be placed Higher (or lower) than Oneself!
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                      >
                      > prometheus wrote:
                      > >
                      > > In the 12/2007 Mystic World Sharon Kunin's
                      > > article is Damage Control for Klemp's 2007
                      > > EWWS "RESTROOMS ARE UNISEX" comments!
                      > >
                      > > Sharon's article begins on page 1 and is titled,
                      > > "A Year of Blessing." On page 7 Sharon states
                      > > that Klemp walked into the women's restroom
                      > > where:
                      >
                      > ***
                      > "... he (HK) encountered a very alarmed
                      > white-haired woman standing at the sink.
                      > Excusing himself, SRI HAROLD RETURNED TO
                      > THE MEN'S ROOM JUST AS JOAN EMERGED..."
                      > ***
                      >
                      > > Now how does this... Oh! er excuse me madame!
                      > > "Change" her consciousness? What happened to
                      > > "Restrooms Are Unisex!"
                      > >
                      > > Or, did HK follow the Law of Silence and whispered
                      > > or whimpered to himself, under his breath, Restrooms
                      > > Should Be (are) Unisex Damnit! I Have Spoken!!!
                      > > Maybe Klemp only shared his thoughts of what he
                      > > wanted to say to that "Alarmed" white-haired woman?
                      > > Maybe it was all made-up and he lied that he had said
                      > > anything.
                      > >
                      > > Maybe this is what Sharon is really pointing out. Klemp
                      > > lied to ECKists at the 2007 EWWS and never told that
                      > > woman that Restrooms Are Unisex!
                      > >
                      > > I guess that the Holocaust didn't happen either!
                      > >
                      > > Or maybe, the Klemp's, the ESC and RESA Police
                      > > are trying to re-write ECKANKAR History with this
                      > > Damage Control! Almost everyone was embarrassed
                      > > by Klemp's stupid comments and this generated
                      > > a reaction of mass disapproval by the more sane ECKists!
                      > >
                      > > Although HK is out-of-control the EK Board can't
                      > > do anything about it like they did with Gross! They
                      > > allowed Klemp to restructure things giving himself
                      > > sole authority. Too bad so sad! But what goes around
                      > > comes around... that's karma isn't it?! LOL!
                      > >
                      > > I wonder what ECKists are thinking about this
                      > > rewrite by Sharon Kunin which was approved
                      > > of by both Joan and Harold? Do they think that
                      > > this will make things better or that HK's nutty
                      > > comments will all go away? I'll bet the tape of
                      > > that talk gets edited along with the written version
                      > > of it in the next Mahanta Transcripts!
                      > >
                      > > If there wasn't anything to hide (change)...
                      > > Why Are They Doing This?!
                      > >
                      > > Let's just "change" Truth into Fiction... this seems
                      > > to be the ECKANKAR way of viewing life! Or, maybe
                      > > ECKists like Mark just "imagined" they saw and heard
                      > > the Mahanta when it was actually the KAL!
                      > >
                      > > Prometheus
                      > > p.s. HK's comments to Joan to "hush-up" weren't
                      > > appreciated either by ECKists!
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > On HuChat, Mark Alexander wrote:
                      > >
                      > > "I always listen to Harold's talk as if they were Living
                      > > Shariyat dreams... Sometimes I think people forget that
                      > > Harold is not just telling stories to get a chuckle, that
                      > > there is a literal Mahanta... WE are the white-haired lady
                      > > in the women's restroom that Harold talked about...
                      > >
                      > > Even true stories are parables, especially when they involve
                      > > Harold and Joan.
                      > >
                      > > In the restroom story (abbreviated version), Harold and
                      > > Joan were shopping. Joan went to the restroom, found a
                      > > white-haired lady waiting for the Women's room. The Men's
                      > > room was not occupied, so Joan asked the lady why she
                      > > didn't use it. The women said that it was for men only.
                      > >
                      > > Harold said that he and Joan have a policy of using
                      > > 'any port in the storm.' So Joan went into the Men's room.
                      > > Meanwhile, Harold comes along looking for a restroom,
                      > > finds the Men's room locked, so he tries the Women's room.
                      > > It's unlocked, he enters, and of course the white-haired lady
                      > > is there. She looks at him shocked. 'But this is the Women's room!'
                      > > she says.
                      > >
                      > > HAROLD SAYS AS FAR AS HE'S CONCERNED THE RESTROOMS
                      > > ARE UNISEX. HE MUSED THAT HE WONDERED AT HOW THE
                      > > ECK USED HIM TO CHANGE THE STATE OF CONSCIOUSNESS
                      > > OF THE WHITE-HAIRED WOMAN.
                      > >
                      > > This story puts a cap on a particularly nice Living Word
                      > > aspect of this talk. I've seen on many occasions how Harold
                      > > will say something that will tweak the human consciousness
                      > > (political or social or eck-related) , then in the same talk there
                      > > would be a story that addresses what he tweaks. This is how the
                      > > Living Word works.
                      > >
                      > > Earlier in his talk when Joan was singing, she got a little
                      > > lost in singing the complete song and so it went on longer
                      > > than it should have. Harold made a comment about her
                      > > going on like that, and how sometimes at home he would
                      > > have to say something if she talks too long. It was a very male/
                      > > female comment...
                      > >
                      > > So here we have Harold tweaking us on the male/female
                      > > thing and then later tells us a story that tries to remind us
                      > > not to get stuck in male/ female categories. That they are fine,
                      > > but we should not be like the white-haired lady, stuck in one
                      > > or the other. We should be thinking Unisex, SOUL, beyond
                      > > the categories. Change is Change (the title of the talk)... the
                      > > Mahanta. He is the agent of change sent by the ECK into our
                      > > bathroom to tweak us out of our stuck, white-haired old lady
                      > > views. My opinion. Your mileage may vary. Hu Mark_"
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > misha wrote:
                      > >
                      > > For those of you wondering what great pearls of wisdom
                      > > came out of Klemp's recent talk at the eckankar world wide
                      > > seminar, Mark Alexander has shared some of his impressions
                      > > of Klemp's speak, calling it "The Living Word." BTW, I find
                      > > Mark's babbling to be more of his own discomfort in what
                      > > Klemp said--that he, too, must have been troubled by Klemp's
                      > > message just as well as the eckists who came up to him afterwards
                      > > questioning some of Klemp's remarks.
                      > > > >
                      > > here's few of my thoughts on what he shared.
                      > > > >
                      > >
                      > > 1. The bathroom story seems recycled as I read something
                      > > similar in one of Klemp's transcripts years ago . . . unless
                      > > Klemp still has a thing about bathrooms. It's odd he is directing
                      > > chelas to do some vahana work in public restrooms now!
                      > >
                      > > Personally the whole bathroom talk, Unisex comments,
                      > > raising a white haired lady's consciousness, etc. is really
                      > > quite weird--but what can one expect from a guy who
                      > > disrobed in an airport. Klemp was out of balance then, and
                      > > he still is out of balance!
                      > > > >
                      > >
                      > > 2. It seems too that he doesn't like women, especially white
                      > > haired ones! I have to wonder if he loved his mother--or he
                      > > wouldn't so easily put down an older woman who reacted naturally
                      > > "shocked" when he entered a women's restroom. Too bad security
                      > > wasn't called on Klemp for doing this--maybe, he needs another
                      > > time out in a mental institution since it doesn't appear he was
                      > > cured from his mental unbalance and inappropriate behavior
                      > > the first time.
                      > >
                      > > Telling chelas on such a large stage that he sometimes tells
                      > > Joan to quit talking at home, is really arrogant and disrespectful
                      > > of the one he should love and treasure the most--he certainly
                      > > is displaying male chauvinism and unloving behavior. Yeah,
                      > > Klemp talks about a unisex society but yet the male is still
                      > > dominant! LOL!
                      > >
                      > > I think that Klemp inviting Joan to share the stage with him,
                      > > singing her little song, elevated her, but he also kept her in
                      > > a subordinate role. Yep, she'll help him keep the power, but
                      > > he will still run the show! So, much for equal footing--male/
                      > > female! Klemp is working hard to position Joan as a co-l.e.m.
                      > > but yet he isn't making it equal! But it is fun to watch his game.
                      > > I suppose he doesn't want another replay like Gail naming Twitchell's
                      > > replacement- -Klemp would like it to look more legitimate the
                      > > next time, in case something happens to him suddenly! : )
                      > > > >
                      > >
                      > > Anyway . . .
                      > > I especially love the way Mark summed this all up in his last
                      > > paragraph! Too funny! Klemp is the agent of change going
                      > > into all and every public bathroom regardless of them being
                      > > for women or men--by golly, Klemp is going in there and
                      > > making changes . . . and his chelas are embracing this
                      > > idea as they too want to help with the change that obviously
                      > > can be started in such a basic and fundalmental places as
                      > > restrooms. Hey, just remember if the opposite gender comes
                      > > into the restroom you are using, don't be alarmed--it' s not
                      > > any nut or pervert, it's just a nutty, possibly perverted
                      > > eckist! So much for those special, elevated spiritual teachings! : )
                      > >
                      > > Mish
                      > >
                      >
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