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New Vahana Mission for Eckists: Public Restrooms! : )

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  • mishmisha9
    For those of you wondering what great pearls of wisdom came out of Klemp s recent talk at the eckankar world wide seminar, Mark Alexander has shared some of
    Message 1 of 11 , Nov 3, 2007
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      For those of you wondering what great pearls of wisdom came out
      of Klemp's recent talk at the eckankar world wide seminar, Mark
      Alexander has shared some of his impressions of
      Klemp's speak, calling it "The Living Word." BTW, I find Mark's babbling
      to be more of his own discomfort in what Klemp said--that he, too,
      must have been troubled by Klemp's message just as well as the eckists
      who came up to him afterwards questioning some of Klemp's remarks.

      Before reading Mark's post, here's few of my thoughts on what he shared.
      1. The bathroom story seems recycled as I read something similar in one
      of Klemp's transcripts years ago . . . unless Klemp still has a thing about
      bathrooms. It's odd he is directing chelas to do some vahana work in public
      restrooms now! Personally the whole bathroom talk, Unisex comments,
      raising a white haired lady's consciousness, etc. is really quite
      weird--but what can one expect from a guy who disrobed in an airport.
      Klemp was out of balance then, and he still is out of balance!

      2. It seems too that he doesn't like women, especially white haired ones!
      I have to wonder if he loved his mother--or he wouldn't so easily put down
      an older woman who reacted naturally "shocked" when he entered a women's
      restroom. Too bad security wasn't called on Klemp for doing this--
      maybe, he needs another time out in a mental institution since it doesn't
      appear he was cured from his mental unbalance and inappropriate behavior
      the first time. Telling chelas on such a large stage that he sometimes tells
      Joan to quit talking at home, is really arrogant and disrespectful of the one
      he should love and treasure the most--he certainly is displaying male
      chauvinismand unloving behavior. Yeah,Klemp talks about a unisex society
      but yet the male is still dominant! LOL! I think that Klemp inviting Joan to
      share the stage with him, singing her little song, elevated her, but he also
      kept her in a subordinate role. Yep, she'll help him keep the power, but he
      will still run the show! So, much for equal footing--male/ female! Klemp is
      working hard to position Joan as a co-l.e.m. but yet he isn't making it
      equal! But it is fun to watch his game. I suppose he doesn't want another
      replay like Gail naming Twitchell's replacement- -Klemp would like it to
      look more legitimate the next time, in case something happens to him
      suddenly! : )

      Anyway . . . on HuChat, Mark wrote: "I always listen to Harold's talk
      as if they were Living Shariyat dreams to be decoded or as
      ECK-Vidya tapestries that have an inherent & unity and integration.
      Sometimes I think people forget that Harold is not just telling stories
      to get a chuckle, that there is a literal Mahanta wave of meaning and
      communication going on that penetrates deeper than what is actually
      being said when read in transcript. First of all, he's always talking about
      us, the ECK initiates, in one way or another. So in that context, WE are
      the white-haired lady in the women's restroom that Harold talked about.

      Remember when we used to be ducks? ("I moved the food over here, but
      the ducks stayed where they were. I told them the food had moved and
      that they would starve if they didn' t move, but they just stayed in the
      same place, looking for the food that wasn't there." Remember parables?
      Even true stories are parables, especially when they involve Harold and Joan.)
      In the restroom story (abbreviated version), Harold and Joan were shopping.
      Joan went to the restroom, found a white-haired lady waiting for the
      Women's room. The Men's room was not occupied, so Joan asked the
      lady why she didn't use it. The women said that it was for men only. Harold
      said that he and Joan have a policy of using "any port in the storm. " So Joan
      went into the Men's room. Meanwhile, Harold comes along looking for a
      restroom, finds the Men's room locked, so he tries the Women's room. It's
      unlocked, he enters, and of course the white-haired lady is there. She looks at
      him shocked. "But this is the Women's room!" she says. Harold says as
      far as he's concerned the restrooms are Unisex. He mused that he wondered
      at how the ECK used him to change the state of conciousness of the
      white-haired woman.

      This story puts a cap on a particularly nice Living Word aspect of this talk.
      I've seen on many occasions how Harold will say something that will tweak
      the human consciousness (political or social or eck-related) , then in the same
      talk there would be a story that addresses what he tweaks. This is how the
      Living Word works. Earlier in his talk when Joan was singing, she got a little
      lost in singing the complete song and so it went on longer than it should
      have. Harold made a comment about her going on like that, and how
      sometimes at home he would have to say something if she talks too long.
      It was a very male/female comment. One that tweaked the human
      consciousness of some ECKists. I had some come up to me and ask me
      my opinion of it. Did I think Harold was being unkind to Joan? It bothered
      them. I explained what I have here. That the Mahanta as the Living Word will
      often say something that tweaks the human consciousness and then tie it
      up later in a story. Not that this was planned. It's just the way of the ECK to
      work like this. The Living Word.

      So here we have Harold tweaking us on the male/female thing and then
      later tells us a story that tries to remind us not to get stuck in
      male/ female categories. That they are fine, but we should not be like
      the white-haired lady, stuck in one or the other. We should be thinking
      Unisex, SOUL, beyond the categories. Change is Change (the title of the talk).
      Harold's story about the song Joan sang and going back to the ORIGINAL
      song reminds us that the human consciousness likes to change things. If
      you sing the song I posted separately, you may notice that your human
      consciousness wants to change it. But as it is, it offers a sublime "spaciousness"
      that the mind would wrongly fill. Singing it the original way offers sublime
      transport that the changes would destroy. Furthermore, these worlds of
      categories complicate things with male/ female categories. The role of the
      Mahanta is to offer the "simplifying" change of going & back to the original,
      the Word, the HU, the path of ECK that first leads us to Soul then to God
      through the Mahanta. He is the agent of change sent by the ECK into our
      bathroom to tweak us out of our stuck, white-haired old lady views.
      My opinion. Your mileage may vary. Hu Mark_"

      I especially love the way Mark summed this all up in his last paragraph!
      Too funny! Klemp is the agent of change going into all and every public
      bathroom regardless of them being for women or men--by golly, Klemp
      is going in there and making changes . . . and his chelas are embracing this
      idea as they too want to help with the change that obviously can be started
      in such a basic and fundalmental places as restrooms. Hey, just remember
      if the opposite gender comes into the restroom you are using, don't be
      alarmed--it' s not any nut or pervert, it's just a nutty, possibly perverted
      eckist! So much for those special, elevated spiritual teachings! : )

      Mish
    • prometheus_973
      Hi Mish, Thanks for posting Mark s silly and delusional comments of Klemp s Lower Astral 2007 EWWS talk. Eckankar has regressed from the 6th Chakra of the
      Message 2 of 11 , Nov 3, 2007
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        Hi Mish,
        Thanks for posting Mark's silly and delusional
        comments of Klemp's Lower Astral 2007 EWWS
        talk. Eckankar has regressed from the 6th Chakra
        of the Tisra Til (between the eyebrows) to the 1st
        Chakra (orifices for waste elimination). HK seems
        to be hinting at a new "spiritual" chakra for ECKists
        to use in order to leave their body! LOL!

        Eckankar "PR" (public relations) has taken on the
        new meaning of Public Restroom (PR)!

        Eckankar has been on a spiritual decline since
        Twitchell croaked. Darwin Gross took EK "From
        Heaven [upper Astral] to the Prairie" and Klemp
        has taken EK "From the Prairie to the Toilet!"

        Anyway, I'll make more comments to Mark and
        Klemp below.

        ***
        MARK ALEXANDER wrote (on HU-Chat):

        "I always listen to Harold's talk as if they were
        Living Shariyat dreams to be DECODED or as
        ECK-Vidya tapestries that have an inherent &
        unity and integration."

        [ME] How much decoding is necessary for H.I.s like
        Mark?! Klemp has stated, before, that all words and
        thoughts are NO Higher than the Mental Plane. Isn't
        Mark a 6th initiate? Where's that "inner" communication
        and Knowingness of a Higher Initiate? Oops! It's not
        there is it! But not to worry... just "imagine" that it's
        there via one's 20/20 hind-sight vision. That's why
        Mark has to (now) grab at straws in order to "see."
        H.I.s can't admit that their ECK initiations are worthless!
        BTW-Why isn't PT's ECK-VIDYA offered anymore?

        MA: "SOMETIMES I THINK people forget that Harold is
        not just telling stories to get a chuckle, that there is a
        literal Mahanta wave of meaning and communication
        going on that penetrates deeper than what is actually
        being said when read in transcript. First of all, he's always
        talking about us, the ECK initiates, in one way or another.
        So in that context, WE are the WHITE-HAIRED LADY in
        the WOMEN's RESTROOM that HAROLD TALKED ABOUT."

        [ME] Well, once again, Mark is giving his bias opinion
        as though he has the best (and only) inside interpretation
        of what HK was really saying. Is Mark now Klemp's unofficial
        (PR) spokes-person and second guessing the Mahanta?
        And, aren't all of HK's talks (WORDS), writings, and thoughts
        NO HIGHER than the Mental Plane! This is what Klemp has
        stated! However, WHY would Mark think that ALL ECKists
        (including H.I.s) were NO MORE ADVANCED (regarding
        change) than an Old White-Haired Female Non-ECKist?
        But Yes, it is true that HK is preparing the ECK membership
        for Joan to become the next LEM. Klemp doesn't trust
        Peter, Don, Doug or anyone else except Joan. Look at how
        he treated Gross! Other than Joan, the next LEM could toss
        out Klemp's books and bring Twitchell's back and Klemp
        would lose his 50% ($) royalties.

        MA: "Remember when we used to be ducks?
        ('I moved the food over here, but the ducks stayed where
        they were. I told them the food had moved and that they
        would starve if they didn' t move, but they just stayed in
        the same place, looking for the food that wasn't there.'

        [ME] I've fed ducks before. They will find the food!
        Have you ever heard that you can lead a horse to water
        but you can't make him drink? Besides, it's doing the
        ducks a disservice to make them dependent upon people
        for food. But, then again, this is what the Mahanta/LEM
        does by making ECKists Dependent. No Spiritual Freedom
        Here and Now... but maybe after this life, eventually?!
        Well, this is the hope, belief, dream, promise, and
        imaginings that all religions make to their followers.

        MA: "Remember parables? Even true stories are parables,
        (especially when they involve Harold and Joan.) In the restroom
        story (abbreviated version), Harold and Joan were shopping.
        Joan went to the restroom, found a White-Haired Lady
        waiting for the Women's room. The Men's room was
        Not occupied, so Joan asked the lady why she didn't use it.
        The women said that it was for men only. Harold said
        that he and Joan have a policy of using 'Any Port in the
        Storm.' So Joan went into the Men's room."

        [ME] "Even true stories are parables, (especially when
        they involve Harold and Joan)." What a joke! Klemp can't
        even hold a light to 2nd initiate JESUS! Look at the quality
        and meaning of the original Parables that Jesus gave
        2,000 years ago, and of Klemp's paltry imitations he
        uses today! BTW- Did Joan have to go that bad! And,
        didn't the door have a lock on it? If there were no locks
        on the doors these must have been been larger restrooms.
        And, it seems this problem the Klemp's have with needing
        to use the opposite gender's restroom happens often!
        I guess that the Mahanta and future LEM (Joan) can't even
        get a Parking Space either! Is the Parking Space Angel
        "higher" than the Mahanta?! LOL!

        MA: "Meanwhile, Harold comes along looking for a restroom,
        finds the Men's room locked, so he tries the Women's room.
        It's unlocked, he enters, and of course the white-haired lady
        is there. She looks at him shocked. 'But this is the Women's
        room!' she says. Harold says as far as he's concerned the
        restrooms are Unisex. He mused that he wondered at how
        the ECK used him to change the state of conciousness of
        the white-haired woman."

        [ME] Okay, I wonder WHY the woman didn't lock the door?
        I guess she "assumed" she was safe! It seems that the
        "spiritual" lesson Klemp taught her was to LOCK THE DOOR
        the next time in order to keep the perverts out! BTW-If
        a restroom is UNISEX it will have both male/female
        symbols next to the door and will be for ONE person!
        Klemp is such an idiot! HK doesn't see that the ECK
        intended the LESSON to change HIS state of consciousness!

        MA: "This story puts a cap on a particularly nice Living
        Word aspect of this talk. I've seen on many occasions
        how Harold will say something that will tweak the human
        consciousness (political or social or eck-related), then
        in the same talk there would be a story that addresses
        what he tweaks. This is how the Living Word works."

        [ME] Mark needs to re-read and comprehend the EK
        Guidelines of Klemp's because "eck-related" S/B
        ECK-related. "ECK" needs to be in all caps! Yet, Mark
        claims to be an "expert" on anything and everything
        ECK and even puts words (and their meanings) into
        Klemp's mouth! When did Klemp ever have an opinion
        of current politics? Mark is using his distorted imagination
        and reading things into Klemp's Mental Plane (or lower)
        words. ECKists are taught to create their own imaginary
        heavenly worlds in order to feel free of fear. Besides,
        Klemp always talks of or makes innuendos from past
        events rather than the "Living" present. And, maybe
        this white-haired (old) woman was more startled because
        of the increase in crime, especially, sexual ones! Klemp
        should keep current with the Here and Now. Remember
        Larry Craig! And, What is HK teaching the ECK YOUTH?
        Is it okay for a Female 10 year old ECKist to use the
        MENs RESTROOM? Is this the type of parent Klemp was?

        MA: "Earlier in his talk when Joan was singing, she got a
        little lost in singing the complete song and so it went
        on longer than it should have."

        [ME] And this 9th initiate will become the LEM! What
        happened to the GREATER and HIGHER AWARENESS
        (than non-ECKists) that the ECK Initiations are supposed
        to bring? Shouldn't the standards be higher as well?!

        MA: "Harold made a comment about her going on
        like that, and how sometimes at home he would have
        to say something if she talks too long. It was a very
        male/female comment. One that tweaked the human
        consciousness of some ECKists. I had some come up
        to me and ask me my opinion of it. Did I think Harold
        was being unkind to Joan? It bothered them."

        [ME] It bothered them for a reason! They had a glimpse
        of the Truth! They had a glimpse of the Wizard of oZ
        standing behind curtain (veil of lies). This was a Male
        versus Female comment that you are trying to "tweak"
        in order to maintain your delusion. ECKists fear the
        Truth and that's why they need to deny it. Delusion
        feels good, especially, with the "guarantee" those fake
        initiations are to bring... in the future.

        MA: "I explained what I have here. That the Mahanta
        as the Living Word will often say something that tweaks
        the human consciousness and then tie it up later in a
        story. Not that this was planned. It's just the way of the
        ECK to work like this. The Living Word."

        [ME] Other people in other religions believe the same
        according to their dogma. This is the KAL trap/test
        involving all religions! Soul is It's own Living Word
        with SPIRIT (ECK) and needs no middleman. That's
        what religion teaches!

        MA: "So here we have Harold tweaking us on the
        male/female thing and then later tells us a story that
        tries to remind us not to get stuck in male/female
        categories. That they are fine, but we should not be
        like the white-haired lady, stuck in one or the other.
        We should be thinking Unisex, SOUL, beyond the
        categories."

        [ME] Shouldn't 30-45 year EK H.I.s have learned this
        stuff by now? This is WHY I believe that Klemp has
        taken PT's ECKANKAR in the opposite direction after
        25 years in charge! Yes, HK just needs to keep that
        initiation carrot dangling! It makes these H.I.s feel
        secure, elevated, and hopeful.

        MA: "Change is Change (the title of the talk). Harold's story
        about the song Joan sang and going back to the ORIGINAL
        song reminds us that the human consciousness likes to
        change things. If you sing the song I posted separately,
        you may notice that your human consciousness wants to
        change it. But as it is, it offers a sublime "spaciousness"
        that the mind would wrongly fill. Singing it the original
        way offers sublime transport that the changes would destroy.
        Furthermore, these worlds of categories complicate things
        with male/ female categories."

        [ME] "Change is Change" and Religion is Religion!
        So, did the Human Consciousness, also, change the
        song "Amazing Grace" into "Amazing HU?" Did the
        Mind of an ECKist "Wrongly Fill" or change this song
        (Amazing HU) from the "original" version? Sure!

        MA: "The role of the Mahanta is to offer the 'simplifying'
        change of going & back to the original, the Word, the HU,
        the path of ECK that first leads us to Soul then to God
        through the Mahanta. He is the agent of change sent by
        the ECK into our bathroom to tweak us out of our stuck,
        WHITE-HAIRED OLD LADY views. My opinion. Your mileage
        may vary. HU Mark_"

        [ME] When did the "original" Mahanta come on the
        scene? In the OCTOBER 2004 LETTER of LIGHT a 10
        year old from Alberta, Canada asks: "How did the
        Mahanta start?" Klemp states: "So the short answer,
        Quinton, is that the SUGMAD first incarnated ITSELF
        as the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master in the PRESENT
        KALI YUGA." What happened to SAT NAM? Klemp is
        Changing ECK History! And, How about GEUTAN?
        Look at page 78 in Klemp's own LexiCon! The Kali
        Yuga began in the Dark Age or Iron Age and the Iron
        Age began around 500 B.C. Yet, Geutan is listed as
        a former Mahanta/LEM in Lemuria (during the Tretya
        Yuga).

        Yes, Mark and his followers are as nutty as they
        come! they've lost touch with the last bits of reality
        (Truth) that they once had... long ago.


        Prometheus



        mish wrote:
        >
        >
        > For those of you wondering what great pearls of wisdom came out
        > of Klemp's recent talk at the eckankar world wide seminar, Mark
        > Alexander has shared some of his impressions of
        > Klemp's speak, calling it "The Living Word." BTW, I find Mark's babbling
        > to be more of his own discomfort in what Klemp said--that he, too,
        > must have been troubled by Klemp's message just as well as the eckists
        > who came up to him afterwards questioning some of Klemp's remarks.
        >
        > Before reading Mark's post, here's few of my thoughts on what he shared.
        > 1. The bathroom story seems recycled as I read something similar in one
        > of Klemp's transcripts years ago . . . unless Klemp still has a thing about
        > bathrooms. It's odd he is directing chelas to do some vahana work in public
        > restrooms now! Personally the whole bathroom talk, Unisex comments,
        > raising a white haired lady's consciousness, etc. is really quite
        > weird--but what can one expect from a guy who disrobed in an airport.
        > Klemp was out of balance then, and he still is out of balance!
        >
        > 2. It seems too that he doesn't like women, especially white haired ones!
        > I have to wonder if he loved his mother--or he wouldn't so easily put down
        > an older woman who reacted naturally "shocked" when he entered a women's
        > restroom. Too bad security wasn't called on Klemp for doing this--
        > maybe, he needs another time out in a mental institution since it doesn't
        > appear he was cured from his mental unbalance and inappropriate behavior
        > the first time. Telling chelas on such a large stage that he sometimes tells
        > Joan to quit talking at home, is really arrogant and disrespectful of the one
        > he should love and treasure the most--he certainly is displaying male
        > chauvinism and unloving behavior. Yeah, Klemp talks about a unisex society
        > but yet the male is still dominant! LOL! I think that Klemp inviting Joan to
        > share the stage with him, singing her little song, elevated her, but he also
        > kept her in a subordinate role. Yep, she'll help him keep the power, but he
        > will still run the show! So, much for equal footing--male/ female! Klemp is
        > working hard to position Joan as a co-l.e.m. but yet he isn't making it
        > equal! But it is fun to watch his game. I suppose he doesn't want another
        > replay like Gail naming Twitchell's replacement- -Klemp would like it to
        > look more legitimate the next time, in case something happens to him
        > suddenly! : )
        >
        > Anyway . . . on HuChat, Mark wrote:

        > "I always listen to Harold's talk
        > as if they were Living Shariyat dreams to be decoded or as
        > ECK-Vidya tapestries that have an inherent & unity and integration.
        > Sometimes I think people forget that Harold is not just telling stories
        > to get a chuckle, that there is a literal Mahanta wave of meaning and
        > communication going on that penetrates deeper than what is actually
        > being said when read in transcript. First of all, he's always talking about
        > us, the ECK initiates, in one way or another. So in that context, WE are
        > the white-haired lady in the women's restroom that Harold talked about.
        >
        > Remember when we used to be ducks? ("I moved the food over here, but
        > the ducks stayed where they were. I told them the food had moved and
        > that they would starve if they didn' t move, but they just stayed in the
        > same place, looking for the food that wasn't there." Remember parables?
        > Even true stories are parables, especially when they involve Harold and Joan.)
        > In the restroom story (abbreviated version), Harold and Joan were shopping.
        > Joan went to the restroom, found a white-haired lady waiting for the
        > Women's room. The Men's room was not occupied, so Joan asked the
        > lady why she didn't use it. The women said that it was for men only. Harold
        > said that he and Joan have a policy of using "any port in the storm. " So Joan
        > went into the Men's room. Meanwhile, Harold comes along looking for a
        > restroom, finds the Men's room locked, so he tries the Women's room. It's
        > unlocked, he enters, and of course the white-haired lady is there. She looks at
        > him shocked. "But this is the Women's room!" she says. Harold says as
        > far as he's concerned the restrooms are Unisex. He mused that he wondered
        > at how the ECK used him to change the state of conciousness of the
        > white-haired woman.
        >
        > This story puts a cap on a particularly nice Living Word aspect of this talk.
        > I've seen on many occasions how Harold will say something that will tweak
        > the human consciousness (political or social or eck-related) , then in the same
        > talk there would be a story that addresses what he tweaks. This is how the
        > Living Word works. Earlier in his talk when Joan was singing, she got a little
        > lost in singing the complete song and so it went on longer than it should
        > have. Harold made a comment about her going on like that, and how
        > sometimes at home he would have to say something if she talks too long.
        > It was a very male/female comment. One that tweaked the human
        > consciousness of some ECKists. I had some come up to me and ask me
        > my opinion of it. Did I think Harold was being unkind to Joan? It bothered
        > them. I explained what I have here. That the Mahanta as the Living Word will
        > often say something that tweaks the human consciousness and then tie it
        > up later in a story. Not that this was planned. It's just the way of the ECK to
        > work like this. The Living Word.
        >
        > So here we have Harold tweaking us on the male/female thing and then
        > later tells us a story that tries to remind us not to get stuck in
        > male/ female categories. That they are fine, but we should not be like
        > the white-haired lady, stuck in one or the other. We should be thinking
        > Unisex, SOUL, beyond the categories. Change is Change (the title of the talk).
        > Harold's story about the song Joan sang and going back to the ORIGINAL
        > song reminds us that the human consciousness likes to change things. If
        > you sing the song I posted separately, you may notice that your human
        > consciousness wants to change it. But as it is, it offers a sublime "spaciousness"
        > that the mind would wrongly fill. Singing it the original way offers sublime
        > transport that the changes would destroy. Furthermore, these worlds of
        > categories complicate things with male/ female categories. The role of the
        > Mahanta is to offer the "simplifying" change of going & back to the original,
        > the Word, the HU, the path of ECK that first leads us to Soul then to God
        > through the Mahanta. He is the agent of change sent by the ECK into our
        > bathroom to tweak us out of our stuck, white-haired old lady views.
        > My opinion. Your mileage may vary. Hu Mark_"
        >
        >
        >
        > I especially love the way Mark summed this all up in his last paragraph!
        > Too funny! Klemp is the agent of change going into all and every public
        > bathroom regardless of them being for women or men--by golly, Klemp
        > is going in there and making changes . . . and his chelas are embracing this
        > idea as they too want to help with the change that obviously can be started
        > in such a basic and fundalmental places as restrooms. Hey, just remember
        > if the opposite gender comes into the restroom you are using, don't be
        > alarmed--it' s not any nut or pervert, it's just a nutty, possibly perverted
        > eckist! So much for those special, elevated spiritual teachings! : )
        >
        > Mish
      • mishmisha9
        One has to wonder where eckankar would be today if Klemp had never been put in that power position. Even though Twitchell lied about the origins of the
        Message 3 of 11 , Nov 4, 2007
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          One has to wonder where eckankar would be today if
          Klemp had never been put in that power position. Even
          though Twitchell lied about the origins of the teachings
          and plagiarized heavily, it doesn't seem that Twitchell
          was mentally unbalanced as Klemp is. Put a nutter in
          the command of a group, and these ready to follow chelas
          take on the persona of being crazy too! Maybe true
          "change" would be of great benefit for eckankar . . . if it
          is not already too late! Klemp has established a cult of
          delusional thinking and is making followers into nut cases.
          I posted Mark's post because it showed how this crazy
          delusional thinking takes over an otherwise intelligent
          human being.

          Just read Klemp's autobiographies to grasp how he had
          mental problems as a kid, was a social outcast and didn't
          mature in a way to be able to look back and evaluate what
          was his illogical and confused thinking as a child. This is why
          Klemp is still arrested in development! His public bathroom antics
          are just one such example of his unbalanced, illogical, plus mean
          spirited behavior. Yes, he has been mean spirited as well--part of
          that illogical thinking and irrational behavior.

          Evidently, he also included in his talk a story about a woman who
          attempted suicide. The person who shared this part of his talk
          mentioned that Klemp said the suicidal woman was being
          defiant. I don't know how Klemp would know that, unless, he
          was ascribing his bridge jumping incident as his defiant behavior?
          Was Klemp defying God by jumping? Was that the true essence of
          his own suicidal attempt rather than a God Realization esperience?
          Was disrobing an act of defiance too, or just the actions of a confused
          and deranged mind?

          Describing someone who is in so much despair as to want to kill
          herself as being defiant doesn't seem very compassionate or
          understanding. While Klemp will claim to be compassionate and
          encourage it, his behavior and words show the contrary. Eckists
          also pick up on this--they will sign off with eck love, but they
          criticize and judge just as meanly as Klemp does of others.
          Confronting a white haired lady (why is the color or lack of color in her
          hair important to Klemp's story?) in a lady's bathroom and
          claim that he Klemp was raising her consciousness by telling her
          it was a unisex bathroom--is both mean and nutty. I can only
          hope that if this is standard behavior for Klemp when he is out in
          the public domain that he will be caught and brought to task for
          creating a public disturbance and possibly one with perverted
          implications. Klemp needs to have his consciousness corrected and
          balanced--he is way, way out there in cuckoo land! : )

          Already, in reading other posts by eckists concerning public
          bathrooms, it seems that some are ready to promote unisex
          restrooms just as Klemp did--barging in on unsuspected people
          who "think" that they are in a gender assigned restroom and
          pushing their will on them. As a female, I would not want any
          man coming into a female restroom as I would like to have the
          privacy to make any kind of clothing adjustment I might need at
          the time. I would not want to be in a stall with my panties down
          with a man doing his thing in the stall next to me. This is
          stranger danger in my book! It also puts small children at risk--
          just watch Perverted Justice to see how many perverts are out
          there looking for opportunity--they come from all ranks of life,
          including men in business suits.

          Wake up, Eckists! You have a mental case for your spiritual
          leader!

          Mish


          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
          "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Mish,
          > Thanks for posting Mark's silly and delusional
          > comments of Klemp's Lower Astral 2007 EWWS
          > talk. Eckankar has regressed from the 6th Chakra
          > of the Tisra Til (between the eyebrows) to the 1st
          > Chakra (orifices for waste elimination). HK seems
          > to be hinting at a new "spiritual" chakra for ECKists
          > to use in order to leave their body! LOL!
          >
          > Eckankar "PR" (public relations) has taken on the
          > new meaning of Public Restroom (PR)!
          >
          > Eckankar has been on a spiritual decline since
          > Twitchell croaked. Darwin Gross took EK "From
          > Heaven [upper Astral] to the Prairie" and Klemp
          > has taken EK "From the Prairie to the Toilet!"
          >
          > Anyway, I'll make more comments to Mark and
          > Klemp below.
          >
          > ***
          > MARK ALEXANDER wrote (on HU-Chat):
          >
          > "I always listen to Harold's talk as if they were
          > Living Shariyat dreams to be DECODED or as
          > ECK-Vidya tapestries that have an inherent &
          > unity and integration."
          >
          > [ME] How much decoding is necessary for H.I.s like
          > Mark?! Klemp has stated, before, that all words and
          > thoughts are NO Higher than the Mental Plane. Isn't
          > Mark a 6th initiate? Where's that "inner" communication
          > and Knowingness of a Higher Initiate? Oops! It's not
          > there is it! But not to worry... just "imagine" that it's
          > there via one's 20/20 hind-sight vision. That's why
          > Mark has to (now) grab at straws in order to "see."
          > H.I.s can't admit that their ECK initiations are worthless!
          > BTW-Why isn't PT's ECK-VIDYA offered anymore?
          >
          > MA: "SOMETIMES I THINK people forget that Harold is
          > not just telling stories to get a chuckle, that there is a
          > literal Mahanta wave of meaning and communication
          > going on that penetrates deeper than what is actually
          > being said when read in transcript. First of all, he's always
          > talking about us, the ECK initiates, in one way or another.
          > So in that context, WE are the WHITE-HAIRED LADY in
          > the WOMEN's RESTROOM that HAROLD TALKED ABOUT."
          >
          > [ME] Well, once again, Mark is giving his bias opinion
          > as though he has the best (and only) inside interpretation
          > of what HK was really saying. Is Mark now Klemp's unofficial
          > (PR) spokes-person and second guessing the Mahanta?
          > And, aren't all of HK's talks (WORDS), writings, and thoughts
          > NO HIGHER than the Mental Plane! This is what Klemp has
          > stated! However, WHY would Mark think that ALL ECKists
          > (including H.I.s) were NO MORE ADVANCED (regarding
          > change) than an Old White-Haired Female Non-ECKist?
          > But Yes, it is true that HK is preparing the ECK membership
          > for Joan to become the next LEM. Klemp doesn't trust
          > Peter, Don, Doug or anyone else except Joan. Look at how
          > he treated Gross! Other than Joan, the next LEM could toss
          > out Klemp's books and bring Twitchell's back and Klemp
          > would lose his 50% ($) royalties.
          >
          > MA: "Remember when we used to be ducks?
          > ('I moved the food over here, but the ducks stayed where
          > they were. I told them the food had moved and that they
          > would starve if they didn' t move, but they just stayed in
          > the same place, looking for the food that wasn't there.'
          >
          > [ME] I've fed ducks before. They will find the food!
          > Have you ever heard that you can lead a horse to water
          > but you can't make him drink? Besides, it's doing the
          > ducks a disservice to make them dependent upon people
          > for food. But, then again, this is what the Mahanta/LEM
          > does by making ECKists Dependent. No Spiritual Freedom
          > Here and Now... but maybe after this life, eventually?!
          > Well, this is the hope, belief, dream, promise, and
          > imaginings that all religions make to their followers.
          >
          > MA: "Remember parables? Even true stories are parables,
          > (especially when they involve Harold and Joan.) In the restroom
          > story (abbreviated version), Harold and Joan were shopping.
          > Joan went to the restroom, found a White-Haired Lady
          > waiting for the Women's room. The Men's room was
          > Not occupied, so Joan asked the lady why she didn't use it.
          > The women said that it was for men only. Harold said
          > that he and Joan have a policy of using 'Any Port in the
          > Storm.' So Joan went into the Men's room."
          >
          > [ME] "Even true stories are parables, (especially when
          > they involve Harold and Joan)." What a joke! Klemp can't
          > even hold a light to 2nd initiate JESUS! Look at the quality
          > and meaning of the original Parables that Jesus gave
          > 2,000 years ago, and of Klemp's paltry imitations he
          > uses today! BTW- Did Joan have to go that bad! And,
          > didn't the door have a lock on it? If there were no locks
          > on the doors these must have been been larger restrooms.
          > And, it seems this problem the Klemp's have with needing
          > to use the opposite gender's restroom happens often!
          > I guess that the Mahanta and future LEM (Joan) can't even
          > get a Parking Space either! Is the Parking Space Angel
          > "higher" than the Mahanta?! LOL!
          >
          > MA: "Meanwhile, Harold comes along looking for a restroom,
          > finds the Men's room locked, so he tries the Women's room.
          > It's unlocked, he enters, and of course the white-haired lady
          > is there. She looks at him shocked. 'But this is the Women's
          > room!' she says. Harold says as far as he's concerned the
          > restrooms are Unisex. He mused that he wondered at how
          > the ECK used him to change the state of conciousness of
          > the white-haired woman."
          >
          > [ME] Okay, I wonder WHY the woman didn't lock the door?
          > I guess she "assumed" she was safe! It seems that the
          > "spiritual" lesson Klemp taught her was to LOCK THE DOOR
          > the next time in order to keep the perverts out! BTW-If
          > a restroom is UNISEX it will have both male/female
          > symbols next to the door and will be for ONE person!
          > Klemp is such an idiot! HK doesn't see that the ECK
          > intended the LESSON to change HIS state of consciousness!
          >
          > MA: "This story puts a cap on a particularly nice Living
          > Word aspect of this talk. I've seen on many occasions
          > how Harold will say something that will tweak the human
          > consciousness (political or social or eck-related), then
          > in the same talk there would be a story that addresses
          > what he tweaks. This is how the Living Word works."
          >
          > [ME] Mark needs to re-read and comprehend the EK
          > Guidelines of Klemp's because "eck-related" S/B
          > ECK-related. "ECK" needs to be in all caps! Yet, Mark
          > claims to be an "expert" on anything and everything
          > ECK and even puts words (and their meanings) into
          > Klemp's mouth! When did Klemp ever have an opinion
          > of current politics? Mark is using his distorted imagination
          > and reading things into Klemp's Mental Plane (or lower)
          > words. ECKists are taught to create their own imaginary
          > heavenly worlds in order to feel free of fear. Besides,
          > Klemp always talks of or makes innuendos from past
          > events rather than the "Living" present. And, maybe
          > this white-haired (old) woman was more startled because
          > of the increase in crime, especially, sexual ones! Klemp
          > should keep current with the Here and Now. Remember
          > Larry Craig! And, What is HK teaching the ECK YOUTH?
          > Is it okay for a Female 10 year old ECKist to use the
          > MENs RESTROOM? Is this the type of parent Klemp was?
          >
          > MA: "Earlier in his talk when Joan was singing, she got a
          > little lost in singing the complete song and so it went
          > on longer than it should have."
          >
          > [ME] And this 9th initiate will become the LEM! What
          > happened to the GREATER and HIGHER AWARENESS
          > (than non-ECKists) that the ECK Initiations are supposed
          > to bring? Shouldn't the standards be higher as well?!
          >
          > MA: "Harold made a comment about her going on
          > like that, and how sometimes at home he would have
          > to say something if she talks too long. It was a very
          > male/female comment. One that tweaked the human
          > consciousness of some ECKists. I had some come up
          > to me and ask me my opinion of it. Did I think Harold
          > was being unkind to Joan? It bothered them."
          >
          > [ME] It bothered them for a reason! They had a glimpse
          > of the Truth! They had a glimpse of the Wizard of oZ
          > standing behind curtain (veil of lies). This was a Male
          > versus Female comment that you are trying to "tweak"
          > in order to maintain your delusion. ECKists fear the
          > Truth and that's why they need to deny it. Delusion
          > feels good, especially, with the "guarantee" those fake
          > initiations are to bring... in the future.
          >
          > MA: "I explained what I have here. That the Mahanta
          > as the Living Word will often say something that tweaks
          > the human consciousness and then tie it up later in a
          > story. Not that this was planned. It's just the way of the
          > ECK to work like this. The Living Word."
          >
          > [ME] Other people in other religions believe the same
          > according to their dogma. This is the KAL trap/test
          > involving all religions! Soul is It's own Living Word
          > with SPIRIT (ECK) and needs no middleman. That's
          > what religion teaches!
          >
          > MA: "So here we have Harold tweaking us on the
          > male/female thing and then later tells us a story that
          > tries to remind us not to get stuck in male/female
          > categories. That they are fine, but we should not be
          > like the white-haired lady, stuck in one or the other.
          > We should be thinking Unisex, SOUL, beyond the
          > categories."
          >
          > [ME] Shouldn't 30-45 year EK H.I.s have learned this
          > stuff by now? This is WHY I believe that Klemp has
          > taken PT's ECKANKAR in the opposite direction after
          > 25 years in charge! Yes, HK just needs to keep that
          > initiation carrot dangling! It makes these H.I.s feel
          > secure, elevated, and hopeful.
          >
          > MA: "Change is Change (the title of the talk). Harold's story
          > about the song Joan sang and going back to the ORIGINAL
          > song reminds us that the human consciousness likes to
          > change things. If you sing the song I posted separately,
          > you may notice that your human consciousness wants to
          > change it. But as it is, it offers a sublime "spaciousness"
          > that the mind would wrongly fill. Singing it the original
          > way offers sublime transport that the changes would destroy.
          > Furthermore, these worlds of categories complicate things
          > with male/ female categories."
          >
          > [ME] "Change is Change" and Religion is Religion!
          > So, did the Human Consciousness, also, change the
          > song "Amazing Grace" into "Amazing HU?" Did the
          > Mind of an ECKist "Wrongly Fill" or change this song
          > (Amazing HU) from the "original" version? Sure!
          >
          > MA: "The role of the Mahanta is to offer the 'simplifying'
          > change of going & back to the original, the Word, the HU,
          > the path of ECK that first leads us to Soul then to God
          > through the Mahanta. He is the agent of change sent by
          > the ECK into our bathroom to tweak us out of our stuck,
          > WHITE-HAIRED OLD LADY views. My opinion. Your mileage
          > may vary. HU Mark_"
          >
          > [ME] When did the "original" Mahanta come on the
          > scene? In the OCTOBER 2004 LETTER of LIGHT a 10
          > year old from Alberta, Canada asks: "How did the
          > Mahanta start?" Klemp states: "So the short answer,
          > Quinton, is that the SUGMAD first incarnated ITSELF
          > as the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master in the PRESENT
          > KALI YUGA." What happened to SAT NAM? Klemp is
          > Changing ECK History! And, How about GEUTAN?
          > Look at page 78 in Klemp's own LexiCon! The Kali
          > Yuga began in the Dark Age or Iron Age and the Iron
          > Age began around 500 B.C. Yet, Geutan is listed as
          > a former Mahanta/LEM in Lemuria (during the Tretya
          > Yuga).
          >
          > Yes, Mark and his followers are as nutty as they
          > come! they've lost touch with the last bits of reality
          > (Truth) that they once had... long ago.
          >
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          >
          >
          > mish wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > For those of you wondering what great pearls of wisdom came out
          > > of Klemp's recent talk at the eckankar world wide seminar, Mark
          > > Alexander has shared some of his impressions of
          > > Klemp's speak, calling it "The Living Word." BTW, I find Mark's babbling
          > > to be more of his own discomfort in what Klemp said--that he, too,
          > > must have been troubled by Klemp's message just as well as the eckists
          > > who came up to him afterwards questioning some of Klemp's remarks.
          > >
          > > Before reading Mark's post, here's few of my thoughts on what he shared.
          > > 1. The bathroom story seems recycled as I read something similar in one
          > > of Klemp's transcripts years ago . . . unless Klemp still has a thing about
          > > bathrooms. It's odd he is directing chelas to do some vahana work in public
          > > restrooms now! Personally the whole bathroom talk, Unisex comments,
          > > raising a white haired lady's consciousness, etc. is really quite
          > > weird--but what can one expect from a guy who disrobed in an airport.
          > > Klemp was out of balance then, and he still is out of balance!
          > >
          > > 2. It seems too that he doesn't like women, especially white haired ones!
          > > I have to wonder if he loved his mother--or he wouldn't so easily put down
          > > an older woman who reacted naturally "shocked" when he entered a women's
          > > restroom. Too bad security wasn't called on Klemp for doing this--
          > > maybe, he needs another time out in a mental institution since it doesn't
          > > appear he was cured from his mental unbalance and inappropriate behavior
          > > the first time. Telling chelas on such a large stage that he sometimes tells
          > > Joan to quit talking at home, is really arrogant and disrespectful of the one
          > > he should love and treasure the most--he certainly is displaying male
          > > chauvinism and unloving behavior. Yeah, Klemp talks about a unisex society
          > > but yet the male is still dominant! LOL! I think that Klemp inviting Joan to
          > > share the stage with him, singing her little song, elevated her, but he also
          > > kept her in a subordinate role. Yep, she'll help him keep the power, but he
          > > will still run the show! So, much for equal footing--male/ female! Klemp is
          > > working hard to position Joan as a co-l.e.m. but yet he isn't making it
          > > equal! But it is fun to watch his game. I suppose he doesn't want another
          > > replay like Gail naming Twitchell's replacement- -Klemp would like it to
          > > look more legitimate the next time, in case something happens to him
          > > suddenly! : )
          > >
          > > Anyway . . . on HuChat, Mark wrote:
          >
          > > "I always listen to Harold's talk
          > > as if they were Living Shariyat dreams to be decoded or as
          > > ECK-Vidya tapestries that have an inherent & unity and integration.
          > > Sometimes I think people forget that Harold is not just telling stories
          > > to get a chuckle, that there is a literal Mahanta wave of meaning and
          > > communication going on that penetrates deeper than what is actually
          > > being said when read in transcript. First of all, he's always talking about
          > > us, the ECK initiates, in one way or another. So in that context, WE are
          > > the white-haired lady in the women's restroom that Harold talked about.
          > >
          > > Remember when we used to be ducks? ("I moved the food over here, but
          > > the ducks stayed where they were. I told them the food had moved and
          > > that they would starve if they didn' t move, but they just stayed in the
          > > same place, looking for the food that wasn't there." Remember parables?
          > > Even true stories are parables, especially when they involve Harold and Joan.)
          > > In the restroom story (abbreviated version), Harold and Joan were shopping.
          > > Joan went to the restroom, found a white-haired lady waiting for the
          > > Women's room. The Men's room was not occupied, so Joan asked the
          > > lady why she didn't use it. The women said that it was for men only. Harold
          > > said that he and Joan have a policy of using "any port in the storm. " So Joan
          > > went into the Men's room. Meanwhile, Harold comes along looking for a
          > > restroom, finds the Men's room locked, so he tries the Women's room. It's
          > > unlocked, he enters, and of course the white-haired lady is there. She looks at
          > > him shocked. "But this is the Women's room!" she says. Harold says as
          > > far as he's concerned the restrooms are Unisex. He mused that he wondered
          > > at how the ECK used him to change the state of conciousness of the
          > > white-haired woman.
          > >
          > > This story puts a cap on a particularly nice Living Word aspect of this talk.
          > > I've seen on many occasions how Harold will say something that will tweak
          > > the human consciousness (political or social or eck-related) , then in the same
          > > talk there would be a story that addresses what he tweaks. This is how the
          > > Living Word works. Earlier in his talk when Joan was singing, she got a little
          > > lost in singing the complete song and so it went on longer than it should
          > > have. Harold made a comment about her going on like that, and how
          > > sometimes at home he would have to say something if she talks too long.
          > > It was a very male/female comment. One that tweaked the human
          > > consciousness of some ECKists. I had some come up to me and ask me
          > > my opinion of it. Did I think Harold was being unkind to Joan? It bothered
          > > them. I explained what I have here. That the Mahanta as the Living Word will
          > > often say something that tweaks the human consciousness and then tie it
          > > up later in a story. Not that this was planned. It's just the way of the ECK to
          > > work like this. The Living Word.
          > >
          > > So here we have Harold tweaking us on the male/female thing and then
          > > later tells us a story that tries to remind us not to get stuck in
          > > male/ female categories. That they are fine, but we should not be like
          > > the white-haired lady, stuck in one or the other. We should be thinking
          > > Unisex, SOUL, beyond the categories. Change is Change (the title of the talk).
          > > Harold's story about the song Joan sang and going back to the ORIGINAL
          > > song reminds us that the human consciousness likes to change things. If
          > > you sing the song I posted separately, you may notice that your human
          > > consciousness wants to change it. But as it is, it offers a sublime "spaciousness"
          > > that the mind would wrongly fill. Singing it the original way offers sublime
          > > transport that the changes would destroy. Furthermore, these worlds of
          > > categories complicate things with male/ female categories. The role of the
          > > Mahanta is to offer the "simplifying" change of going & back to the original,
          > > the Word, the HU, the path of ECK that first leads us to Soul then to God
          > > through the Mahanta. He is the agent of change sent by the ECK into our
          > > bathroom to tweak us out of our stuck, white-haired old lady views.
          > > My opinion. Your mileage may vary. Hu Mark_"
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > I especially love the way Mark summed this all up in his last paragraph!
          > > Too funny! Klemp is the agent of change going into all and every public
          > > bathroom regardless of them being for women or men--by golly, Klemp
          > > is going in there and making changes . . . and his chelas are embracing this
          > > idea as they too want to help with the change that obviously can be started
          > > in such a basic and fundalmental places as restrooms. Hey, just remember
          > > if the opposite gender comes into the restroom you are using, don't be
          > > alarmed--it' s not any nut or pervert, it's just a nutty, possibly perverted
          > > eckist! So much for those special, elevated spiritual teachings! : )
          > >
          > > Mish
          >
        • Elizabeth
          Mish wrote: One has to wonder where eckankar would be today if Klemp had never been put in that power position. Even though Twitchell lied about the origins of
          Message 4 of 11 , Nov 5, 2007
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            Mish wrote:
            One has to wonder where eckankar would be today if
            Klemp had never been put in that power position. Even
            though Twitchell lied about the origins of the teachings
            and plagiarized heavily, it doesn't seem that Twitchell
            was mentally unbalanced as Klemp is. 
             
            *** Actually I thought Twitch was mentally ill as well, he was just so convincing in his story and lies that it sounded more believable.  
             
             
            The Nature of Mythomania
             
             
            The following definition is the most comprehensive in describing this phenomenon:
             
            Pathological lying is falsification entirely disproportionate to any discernible end in view engaged in by a person who at the time of observation cannot definitely be declared insane feebleminded or epileptic. Such lying rarely if ever centers about a single event although exhibited in very occasional cases for a short timeit manifests itself most frequently by far over a period of years or even a lifetime. It represents a trait rather than an episode. Extensivevery complicated fabrications may be evolved. This has led to the synonyms: mythomania pseudologia phantastica.5
             
            William and Mary Healy offered this definition in their respected study on the subject. This book is significant for its recognition of the need to look at the pathological liar as a special category of psychological phenomenon. They wrote:
             
            A clear terminology should be adopted. The pathological liar forms a species by himself and as such does not necessarily belong to any of these larger classes.6
             
            A. Delbrücka late nineteenth-century German psychiatrist conducted the earliest studies of this condition. He coined the term “pseudologia phantastica” later adopted by other writers on the subject. Delbrück’s work provided early warnings of the harm such liars cause to families and society in general by their falsifications and deceit. During this same period another German psychiatristKoppencontributed to the analysis of the pathological liar and the nature of the lies he told:
             
            The pathological lie is active in character a whole sequence of experiences is fabricated and the products of fancy brought forward with a certainty that is astonishing. The possibility that the untruth may be at any minute demolished does not abash the liar in the least. Remonstrances against the lies make no impression. On closer inspection we find that the liar is no longer free he has ceased to be master of his own lies the lie has won power over himit has the worth of a real experience. In the final stages of the pathological lie it cannot be differentiated from delusion.7
             
            In an excellent and comprehensive 1997 compilation on mythomaniaits editor asserts:
             
            Deception and truth are polar opposites on a continuum with various degrees of departure from blatant dishonesty to unbending truth. A small dose of duplicity may interfere little with family and social duties. . . . It may either pass unnoticed or receive endorsement within a culturally stipulated range of conduct. By contrast some flagrant falsities that violate cultural codes by their ineptitude absurdity or extravagance . . . Have long attracted the attention of the medical profession.8
             
            Another closely related condition is “ megalomania:”
             
            A psycho pathological condition in which delusional fantasies of wealth poweror omnipotence predominate an obsession with grandiose or extravagant things or actions.9
             
            In an elaboration of pseudologia phantasticaBernard Risch in 1908 noted several important characteristics of pathological liars. He observed that they typically had mental processes similar to those with literary gifts. The same passion and creativity found in novelists poets and playwrights are found in pathological liars. Both are able to forget who what and where they are and create a new and often convincing reality. The difference however is that the artist is creating this reality within a socially acceptable context: we know it is his art to fabricate a reality of sorts for our entertainment. But the pathological liar is an artist without a socially-valued talent his audiences are unaware of their roles in his works. He plies his art to whomever he meets or to whoever reads his creation. He does not distinguish art from reality and wants us to believe that they are one and the same.
             
            Does the Shoe Fit Paul Twitchell?   I found that Ford Johnson has listed several chapters from his book "Confessions"  for those to read concerning Twit and Eckankrap:    http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/Excerpts.asp
             
             
             
             Anyway, I'm catching up on all of the interesting messages concerning the EWWS, and this Unisex bathroom topic....    If a bathroom is in fact Unisex, it will state it right on the front door.  Usually only one toilet is available, and there is a lock on the door to keep perverts like Klemp out!   Maybe Klemp and his FLEM have gender identity issues of their own, and wish to bring this out of the closet via the toilet story....    Klemp is really a female trapped in a male body, and Joan is a man trapped in a female body?   Looks like the rolls of LEM and FLEM are being slowly reversed and introduced to the members.   <wink wink>
             
            Mish and Prometheus has been right all along about these two lunatics!     
          • mishmisha9
            Hi, Liz! You re correct about Twitchell exhibiting the characteristics of someone suffering from mythomania, and thanks for adding the info about this illness.
            Message 5 of 11 , Nov 5, 2007
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              Hi, Liz!

              You're correct about Twitchell exhibiting the characteristics
              of someone suffering from mythomania, and thanks for
              adding the info about this illness. But the unbalances are
              significantly different with Klemp who seems to have a
              mixture of more than one. Additionally, Klemp also lacks the
              charisma that Twitchell had and which is probably why
              so many old time eckists, from Twitchell's day, lament
              so much about the teachings and continue to embrace the
              older writings of Twitchell's rather than resonating as
              well with Klemp's.

              Klemp's focus on bathroom use seems to resemble his
              airport behavior of disrobing--something is wrong with him.
              As for unisex bathrooms--yes, they do exist and are
              properly marked, sometimes actually saying "family." These
              are usually situated by themselves. In other words, a unisex
              bathroom would not be located next to a men's bathroom or
              women's bathroom or by both. And a unisex will have a lock
              on the door as it accommodates one person at a time, so
              how Klemp could possibly have thought an unlocked
              women's restroom equated to unisex is wrong thinking and
              seems a perversion for him to think he could enter such an
              unlocked bathroom, confront the white haired lady and act
              as though she was thinking wrong??? I believe that if he
              continues to push his way into women's bathrooms because
              he can't hold his urine a few minutes longer (which might
              suggest a medical problem for both him and Joan?), that he
              will eventually run into some trouble. Bathrooms are privacy
              rooms and these two nutters, Klemp and Joan are intruding.
              Their world must be awfully small for them to focus on such
              behavior and equate it to some sort of spiritually uplifting
              experience. Additionally, from some of the other posts that
              eckists are writing in response to Klemp's bathroom story, it
              seems that these gullible and easily manipulated chelas are
              are now smiling and humming hu when using public restrooms--
              especially if they find one that is not marked either or! LOL!
              Even one eckist posted that she had a bathroom experience
              after the talk-- accidentally going into the men's room
              where men were standing at urinals. She thought it was both
              funny, and spiritual! LOL!

              Klemp's feeble attempt of using public bathrooms to promote
              a unisex consciousness is just his lack luster way of trying to
              pave the way for Joan into a higher position in the eck org--to
              validate his plan to position her next to him in authority. He has
              written in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters" that the time is right for
              more female eck masters to reveal themselves. He also wrote in
              this book a couple chela dream stories depicting Joan assisting chelas
              in connecting with Klemp, which he also explains in his book is
              a function of eck masters--helping people to connect with the
              mahanta. It seems that Klemp is moving forward with his plans
              to secure Joan in a bigger and more important role in the org.
              Chelas are now debating what it means concerning male vs
              female--so phase one of operation co-l.e.m. is now in action.
              Klemp is proceeding with his plans. He is doing for Joan what
              Twitchell failed to do for Gail. It is Klemp's way of holding the
              power as long as he can and assure that his books and writings will
              not hit the dumpsters as happened with Darwin Gross! But in the
              end, no matter what Klemp does, what will happen to his legacy
              will be out of his control. If eckankar survives beyond Klemp, I
              predict that much of Klemp's crap will be discarded as chelas
              cleanse themselves of the insane delusion and brainwashing Klemp
              has inflicted upon them. : )

              Mish



              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
              "Elizabeth" <ewickings@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Mish wrote:
              > One has to wonder where eckankar would be today if
              > Klemp had never been put in that power position. Even
              > though Twitchell lied about the origins of the teachings
              > and plagiarized heavily, it doesn't seem that Twitchell
              > was mentally unbalanced as Klemp is.
              >
              > *** Actually I thought Twitch was mentally ill as well, he was just so
              > convincing in his story and lies that it sounded more believable.
              >
              >
              > The Nature of Mythomania
              >
              >
              > The following definition is the most comprehensive in describing this
              > phenomenon:
              >
              > Pathological lying is falsification entirely disproportionate to any
              > discernible end in view engaged in by a person who at the time of
              > observation cannot definitely be declared insane feebleminded or epileptic.
              > Such lying rarely if ever centers about a single event although exhibited in
              > very occasional cases for a short timeit manifests itself most frequently by
              > far over a period of years or even a lifetime. It represents a trait rather
              > than an episode. Extensivevery complicated fabrications may be evolved. This
              > has led to the synonyms: mythomania pseudologia phantastica.5
              >
              > William and Mary Healy offered this definition in their respected study on
              > the subject. This book is significant for its recognition of the need to
              > look at the pathological liar as a special category of psychological
              > phenomenon. They wrote:
              >
              > A clear terminology should be adopted. The pathological liar forms a species
              > by himself and as such does not necessarily belong to any of these larger
              > classes.6
              >
              > A. Delbrücka late nineteenth-century German psychiatrist conducted the
              > earliest studies of this condition. He coined the term "pseudologia
              > phantastica" later adopted by other writers on the subject. Delbrück's work
              > provided early warnings of the harm such liars cause to families and society
              > in general by their falsifications and deceit. During this same period
              > another German psychiatristKoppencontributed to the analysis of the
              > pathological liar and the nature of the lies he told:
              >
              > The pathological lie is active in character a whole sequence of experiences
              > is fabricated and the products of fancy brought forward with a certainty
              > that is astonishing. The possibility that the untruth may be at any minute
              > demolished does not abash the liar in the least. Remonstrances against the
              > lies make no impression. On closer inspection we find that the liar is no
              > longer free he has ceased to be master of his own lies the lie has won power
              > over himit has the worth of a real experience. In the final stages of the
              > pathological lie it cannot be differentiated from delusion.7
              >
              > In an excellent and comprehensive 1997 compilation on mythomaniaits editor
              > asserts:
              >
              > Deception and truth are polar opposites on a continuum with various degrees
              > of departure from blatant dishonesty to unbending truth. A small dose of
              > duplicity may interfere little with family and social duties. . . . It may
              > either pass unnoticed or receive endorsement within a culturally stipulated
              > range of conduct. By contrast some flagrant falsities that violate cultural
              > codes by their ineptitude absurdity or extravagance . . . Have long
              > attracted the attention of the medical profession.8
              >
              > Another closely related condition is " megalomania:"
              >
              > A psycho pathological condition in which delusional fantasies of wealth
              > poweror omnipotence predominate an obsession with grandiose or extravagant
              > things or actions.9
              >
              > In an elaboration of pseudologia phantasticaBernard Risch in 1908 noted
              > several important characteristics of pathological liars. He observed that
              > they typically had mental processes similar to those with literary gifts.
              > The same passion and creativity found in novelists poets and playwrights are
              > found in pathological liars. Both are able to forget who what and where they
              > are and create a new and often convincing reality. The difference however is
              > that the artist is creating this reality within a socially acceptable
              > context: we know it is his art to fabricate a reality of sorts for our
              > entertainment. But the pathological liar is an artist without a
              > socially-valued talent his audiences are unaware of their roles in his works
              > He plies his art to whomever he meets or to whoever reads his creation. He
              > does not distinguish art from reality and wants us to believe that they are
              > one and the same.
              >
              > Does the Shoe Fit Paul Twitchell? I found that Ford Johnson has listed
              > several chapters from his book "Confessions" for those to read concerning
              > Twit and Eckankrap: http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/Excerpts.asp
              >
              >
              >
              > Anyway, I'm catching up on all of the interesting messages concerning the
              > EWWS, and this Unisex bathroom topic.... If a bathroom is in fact Unisex,
              > it will state it right on the front door. Usually only one toilet is
              > available, and there is a lock on the door to keep perverts like Klemp out!
              > Maybe Klemp and his FLEM have gender identity issues of their own, and wish
              > to bring this out of the closet via the toilet story.... Klemp is really
              > a female trapped in a male body, and Joan is a man trapped in a female body?
              > Looks like the rolls of LEM and FLEM are being slowly reversed and
              > introduced to the members. <wink wink>
              >
              > Mish and Prometheus has been right all along about these two lunatics!
              >
            • prometheus_973
              Isn t it true that ECKists are told: A Miracle Is A Changed Consciousness? Klemp stated that he changed the White Haired Lady s Consciousness, therefore, he
              Message 6 of 11 , Nov 10, 2007
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                Isn't it true that ECKists are told: A Miracle Is
                A Changed Consciousness? Klemp stated that he
                "changed" the White Haired Lady's Consciousness,
                therefore, he created A Miracle! If only she knew!

                Isn't it interesting that Klemp doesn't define "Miracle"
                in his Lexicon! WHY Not? HK defines "consciousness"
                but does Not mention "miracles" or "change!" Instead,
                Klemp mentions the "Dhyanic" and "ECK" consciousness
                (pg.32) but only defines Dhyan and Dhyana (pg.47)
                and Not the ECK Consciousness! Also, Dhyan and Dhyana
                only refers to seeing the LEM or Master on the Inner
                Planes versus seeing or meeting the Mahanta on the Inner!


                [BTW - I GOOGLED: A Miracle is a Changed Consciousness
                and found this (below). It's kind of interesting... WHY can't
                Klemp come up with something like this? Didn't Klemp (the
                LEM/Mahanta) get into the International Who's Who of
                Intellectuals via "writing" dozens of books (and paying a
                fee)? So, WHY didn't Klemp come up with a book like this
                instead of running into a Women's Restroom and declaring
                "Restrooms are Unisex!"]

                Prometheus

                *****************************************************
                Make Your Own Miracle

                Miracles don't happen to you; they happen through
                you. An astonishing new book, Shortcut to a Miracle,
                reveals how to get from where you are... to where
                you've barely dared to dream about going.

                Ever noticed how the things you want most seem a
                billion light years away? Perhaps you wait tables but
                dream of performing oon Broadway. Or you've tried
                to have a baby for years but pregnancy eludes you.
                Or you long to meet your Soul Mate but figure that
                at the age of 65, you're doomed to spend your (so-called)
                Golden Years alone. Whatever your "impossible dream"
                might be, reaching it would take a miracle. And since
                you don't believe in miracles--or at least you don't
                believe one's coming your way--you've pretty much
                resigned yourself to a life of back-breaking, low-paying
                work . . . or childlessness . . . or lonely bachhelorhood.

                Don't give up yet. Spiritual counselors Michael C. Rann
                and Elizabeth Rann Arrott say that not only is your miracle
                possible, it is your birthright. In their new book Shortcut
                to a Miracle: How to Change Your Consciousness and
                Transform Your Life (Jeffers Press, September 2005,
                ISBN: 0-9745776-8-5, $14.95), they build a convincing
                case that you can experience your own miracles by working
                with some astonishing natural principles that scientists
                are just beginning to understand.



                "Most people think that a miracle is an event that
                runs counter to the laws of nature and that is 'bestowed'
                from above," say Rann and Arrott. "That's misleading.
                Miracles are perfectly natural. They are results of the
                Universe working the way it's intended to work. Furthermore,
                the person we think of as the recipient of a miracle is actually
                the co-creator of that miracle. We are wired for miracles.
                All we have to do is learn how to help them unfold."

                To provide a foundation for their assertion, the
                authors delve into the staggering new science of
                quantum physics. The very characteristics of the quantum
                world suggest that there is no separation, no dividing
                line between consciousness (thought) and physical form
                or manifestation. We are one with the Universe and part
                of it. We actually participate in its operation--and it
                responds to us.

                In other words, in tandem with the Power and Intelligence
                that created the Universe, you actually co-create your
                own reality.

                All thought is creative, both positive thought and
                negative thought. The key to having miracles manifest
                in your life is to know that miracles can happen, and
                they can happen for you. It's that simple--but the authors
                admit that simple and easy are not synonymous. (If they
                were, everyone would be living rich, rewarding, happy
                lives.) To change your life, you must change the way
                you think. That requires discipline and practice.

                Shortcut to a Miracle outlines what you can do to create
                your miracle, and supports its assertions with dozens
                of real-life stories about those who have found success
                using the principles the authors set forth. Here are just
                a few insights from the book:

                Adopt the Miracle-Making Attitude. The frame of
                mind that allows miracles to unfold is comprised of
                five elements. Doubt in any one of these areas can
                have a negative impact on the manifestation of your
                miracle:

                1. Miracles unfold according to Universal Law. Begin
                right now to know that miracles do not happen by
                chance. They are no more random or capricious than,
                for example, the Law of Gravity that holds the universe
                together.

                2. Your miracle is possible. Any time you question
                whether the miracle you desire is possible, think about
                this awesome universe, and ask yourself if the
                incomprehensible Intelligence and Power responsible
                for creating this universe isn't far more than enough
                to also bring into your life whatever it is that you need
                or desire.

                3. Your miracle is never too big. You may wonder
                whether what you want or think you need is "too big."
                It is not too big! Ralph Waldo Emerson said it best,
                "There is no large or small to the Soul that maketh all."

                4. You play a major role in bringing about your
                miracle. You may wonder, "If it can happen, do
                I have any part in making it happen, or allowing
                it to happen?" Yes. It happens through you, not to
                you. Your part has to do with your belief, and your
                belief is the result of your thinking.

                5. You deserve miracles in your life. The final
                question you may have is, "Do I deserve to have
                something this good happen?" The answer is an
                unqualified yes! You deserve miracles because
                the Power and the Intelligence that created the
                universe also created you to live and enjoy life
                as fully and completely as you choose.

                Stop "squirrel caging." What is squirrel caging?
                It's a form of negative habitual thinking when
                you go over the same thing in your mind repeatedly
                --again and again--around and around and around.
                (Think of a squirrel running in a paddle-wheel-type
                cage, getting nowhere.) TThe three areas where people
                tend to squirrel cage are:

                when we feel wronged or insulted when we make a
                mistake or otherwise embarrass ourselves when we
                take a strong dislike to someone and begin mentally
                criticizing everything they do.

                Understand that when you begin squirrel caging,
                you are actually blocking your miracle. A simple,
                direct statement that helps many people to stop
                squirrel caging is, "I don't need that anymore."
                This statement stops the cycle and allows normal
                thinking to resume. Then you can begin to take charge
                of your thinking by focusing on what you want--
                your miracle--instead of what you don't want.

                Understand the 51 percent rule. One of the biggest
                impediments to having a miracle in your life is the
                fear that you might not get the miracle that you
                desire. We water down our Miracle-Making Attitude
                with thoughts like: "What if I don't get another job
                and I lose the house?" "What if the diagnosis is positive?"
                "What if . . ." "What if . . ." It goes on and on.

                It's important not to back off from what you want
                because you're afraid you might not get it. Think of
                faith and fear as being opposite ends of the same
                continuum. The more afraid we are of some future
                event, the more fearful we become. The greater
                our expectancy of good, however, the stronger
                our faith. The important point is that we don't
                need 100 percent faith--all we need is 51 percent
                faith, and our lives begin to turn in the right direction.

                Don't be discouraged if things appear to get
                worse before they get better. Paradoxically, it's
                not uncommon for a positive change in our lives
                to be preceded by a chaotic period in which a
                number of unsettling things take place. When
                you have begun the mental and emotional process
                that allows a miracle to move into your life, you
                will experience a clearing in consciousness. This
                process often involves the shifting around of many
                things and many patterns in your life. It actually
                ties in with what is known in quantum physics as
                chaos theory. Just remember that, no matter what
                it looks like, beneath any chaotic appearance lies
                order and harmony. Stay focused on your miracle
                and not on unfavorable circumstances.

                Ultimately, say Rann and Arrott, the more you
                align your thinking with what you want, the more
                fully empowered you become, and the more transformed
                your life becomes.

                "The wonderful truth is that in the process of getting
                your miracle, you're opening the door to other miracles,"
                they assert. "When you work toward a miracle in one
                area of your life--your health for instance--you actually
                lay the groundwork for miracles in the other areas,
                namely, prosperity, success, and relationships."

                "You will discover a whole new life that's richer, fuller,
                and more abundant than you ever thought possible,"
                the authors add. "Even your problems become steppingstones
                rather than obstacles. If it sounds too good to be true,
                I assure you that it is not. I've seen it happen again
                and again. Start today. You will find that you are
                supported in your choice by a loving Presence that
                provides--without question and all the time--all you
                could ever want or need."

                Spiritual counselors Michael C. Rann and Elizabeth Rann
                Arrott have spent more than sixty years, combined, examining
                the laws of miracles, their operation and application. This
                groundbreaking book is the culmination of their lifework.
                Michael is director of the Science of Mind Center in Chicago.
                Elizabeth is director of the Science of Mind Center in Evanston,
                Illinois.
                *****************************************************

                misha wrote:
                >
                >
                > For those of you wondering what great pearls of wisdom came out
                > of Klemp's recent talk at the eckankar world wide seminar, Mark
                > Alexander has shared some of his impressions of
                > Klemp's speak, calling it "The Living Word." BTW, I find Mark's babbling
                > to be more of his own discomfort in what Klemp said--that he, too,
                > must have been troubled by Klemp's message just as well as the eckists
                > who came up to him afterwards questioning some of Klemp's remarks.
                >
                > Before reading Mark's post, here's few of my thoughts on what he shared.
                >
                > 1. The bathroom story seems recycled as I read something similar in one
                > of Klemp's transcripts years ago . . . unless Klemp still has a thing about
                > bathrooms. It's odd he is directing chelas to do some vahana work in public
                > restrooms now! Personally the whole bathroom talk, Unisex comments,
                > raising a white haired lady's consciousness, etc. is really quite
                > weird--but what can one expect from a guy who disrobed in an airport.
                > Klemp was out of balance then, and he still is out of balance!
                >
                > 2. It seems too that he doesn't like women, especially white haired ones!
                > I have to wonder if he loved his mother--or he wouldn't so easily put down
                > an older woman who reacted naturally "shocked" when he entered a women's
                > restroom. Too bad security wasn't called on Klemp for doing this--
                > maybe, he needs another time out in a mental institution since it doesn't
                > appear he was cured from his mental unbalance and inappropriate behavior
                > the first time. Telling chelas on such a large stage that he sometimes tells
                > Joan to quit talking at home, is really arrogant and disrespectful of the one
                > he should love and treasure the most--he certainly is displaying male
                > chauvinismand unloving behavior. Yeah,Klemp talks about a unisex society
                > but yet the male is still dominant! LOL! I think that Klemp inviting Joan to
                > share the stage with him, singing her little song, elevated her, but he also
                > kept her in a subordinate role. Yep, she'll help him keep the power, but he
                > will still run the show! So, much for equal footing--male/ female! Klemp is
                > working hard to position Joan as a co-l.e.m. but yet he isn't making it
                > equal! But it is fun to watch his game. I suppose he doesn't want another
                > replay like Gail naming Twitchell's replacement- -Klemp would like it to
                > look more legitimate the next time, in case something happens to him
                > suddenly! : )
                >
                > Anyway . . . on HuChat, Mark wrote:

                > "I always listen to Harold's talk
                > as if they were Living Shariyat dreams to be decoded or as
                > ECK-Vidya tapestries that have an inherent & unity and integration.
                > Sometimes I think people forget that Harold is not just telling stories
                > to get a chuckle, that there is a literal Mahanta wave of meaning and
                > communication going on that penetrates deeper than what is actually
                > being said when read in transcript. First of all, he's always talking about
                > us, the ECK initiates, in one way or another. So in that context, WE are
                > the white-haired lady in the women's restroom that Harold talked about.
                >
                > Remember when we used to be ducks? ("I moved the food over here, but
                > the ducks stayed where they were. I told them the food had moved and
                > that they would starve if they didn' t move, but they just stayed in the
                > same place, looking for the food that wasn't there." Remember parables?
                > Even true stories are parables, especially when they involve Harold and Joan.)
                > In the restroom story (abbreviated version), Harold and Joan were shopping.
                > Joan went to the restroom, found a white-haired lady waiting for the
                > Women's room. The Men's room was not occupied, so Joan asked the
                > lady why she didn't use it. The women said that it was for men only. Harold
                > said that he and Joan have a policy of using "any port in the storm. " So Joan
                > went into the Men's room. Meanwhile, Harold comes along looking for a
                > restroom, finds the Men's room locked, so he tries the Women's room. It's
                > unlocked, he enters, and of course the white-haired lady is there. She looks at
                > him shocked. "But this is the Women's room!" she says. Harold says as
                > far as he's concerned the restrooms are Unisex. He mused that he wondered
                > at how the ECK used him to change the state of conciousness of the
                > white-haired woman.
                >
                > This story puts a cap on a particularly nice Living Word aspect of this talk.
                > I've seen on many occasions how Harold will say something that will tweak
                > the human consciousness (political or social or eck-related) , then in the same
                > talk there would be a story that addresses what he tweaks. This is how the
                > Living Word works. Earlier in his talk when Joan was singing, she got a little
                > lost in singing the complete song and so it went on longer than it should
                > have. Harold made a comment about her going on like that, and how
                > sometimes at home he would have to say something if she talks too long.
                > It was a very male/female comment. One that tweaked the human
                > consciousness of some ECKists. I had some come up to me and ask me
                > my opinion of it. Did I think Harold was being unkind to Joan? It bothered
                > them. I explained what I have here. That the Mahanta as the Living Word will
                > often say something that tweaks the human consciousness and then tie it
                > up later in a story. Not that this was planned. It's just the way of the ECK to
                > work like this. The Living Word.
                >
                > So here we have Harold tweaking us on the male/female thing and then
                > later tells us a story that tries to remind us not to get stuck in
                > male/ female categories. That they are fine, but we should not be like
                > the white-haired lady, stuck in one or the other. We should be thinking
                > Unisex, SOUL, beyond the categories. Change is Change (the title of the talk).
                > Harold's story about the song Joan sang and going back to the ORIGINAL
                > song reminds us that the human consciousness likes to change things. If
                > you sing the song I posted separately, you may notice that your human
                > consciousness wants to change it. But as it is, it offers a sublime "spaciousness"
                > that the mind would wrongly fill. Singing it the original way offers sublime
                > transport that the changes would destroy. Furthermore, these worlds of
                > categories complicate things with male/ female categories. The role of the
                > Mahanta is to offer the "simplifying" change of going & back to the original,
                > the Word, the HU, the path of ECK that first leads us to Soul then to God
                > through the Mahanta. He is the agent of change sent by the ECK into our
                > bathroom to tweak us out of our stuck, white-haired old lady views.
                > My opinion. Your mileage may vary. Hu Mark_"
                >
                > I especially love the way Mark summed this all up in his last paragraph!
                > Too funny! Klemp is the agent of change going into all and every public
                > bathroom regardless of them being for women or men--by golly, Klemp
                > is going in there and making changes . . . and his chelas are embracing this
                > idea as they too want to help with the change that obviously can be started
                > in such a basic and fundalmental places as restrooms. Hey, just remember
                > if the opposite gender comes into the restroom you are using, don't be
                > alarmed--it' s not any nut or pervert, it's just a nutty, possibly perverted
                > eckist! So much for those special, elevated spiritual teachings! : )
                >
                > Mish
                >
              • prometheus_973
                In the 12/2007 Mystic World Sharon Kunin s article is Damage Control for Klemp s 2007 EWWS RESTROOMS ARE UNISEX comments! Sharon s article begins on page 1
                Message 7 of 11 , Dec 23, 2007
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                  In the 12/2007 Mystic World Sharon Kunin's
                  article is Damage Control for Klemp's 2007
                  EWWS "RESTROOMS ARE UNISEX" comments!

                  Sharon's article begins on page 1 and is titled,
                  "A Year of Blessing." On page 7 Sharon states
                  that Klemp walked into the women's restroom
                  where:

                  "... he (HK) encountered a very alarmed
                  white-haired woman standing at the sink.
                  Excusing himself, Sri Harold returned to the
                  men's room just as Joan emerged..."

                  Now how does this... Oh! er excuse me madame!
                  "Change" her consciousness? What happened to
                  "Restrooms Are Unisex!"

                  Or, did HK follow the Law of Silence and whispered
                  or whimpered to himself, under his breath, Restrooms
                  Should Be (are) Unisex Damnit! I Have Spoken!!!
                  Maybe Klemp only shared his thoughts of what he
                  wanted to say to that "Alarmed" white-haired woman?
                  Maybe it was all made-up and he lied that he had said
                  anything.

                  Maybe this is what Sharon is really pointing out. Klemp
                  lied to ECKists at the 2007 EWWS and never told that
                  woman that Restrooms Are Unisex!

                  I guess that the Holocaust didn't happen either!

                  Or maybe, the Klemp's, the ESC and RESA Police
                  are trying to re-write ECKANKAR History with this
                  Damage Control! Almost everyone was embarrassed
                  by Klemp's stupid comments and this generated
                  a reaction of mass disapproval by the more sane ECKists!

                  Although HK is out-of-control the EK Board can't
                  do anything about it like they did with Gross! They
                  allowed Klemp to restructure things giving himself
                  sole authority. Too bad so sad! But what goes around
                  comes around... that's karma isn't it?! LOL!

                  I wonder what ECKists are thinking about this
                  rewrite by Sharon Kunin which was approved
                  of by both Joan and Harold? Do they think that
                  this will make things better or that HK's nutty
                  comments will all go away? I'll bet the tape of
                  that talk gets edited along with the written version
                  of it in the next Mahanta Transcripts!

                  If there wasn't anything to hide (change)...
                  Why Are They Doing This?!

                  Let's just "change" Truth into Fiction... this seems
                  to be the ECKANKAR way of viewing life! Or, maybe
                  ECKists like Mark just "imagined" they saw and heard
                  the Mahanta when it was actually the KAL!

                  Prometheus
                  p.s. HK's comments to Joan to "hush-up" weren't
                  appreciated either by ECKists!


                  On HuChat, Mark Alexander wrote:

                  "I always listen to Harold's talk as if they were Living
                  Shariyat dreams... Sometimes I think people forget that
                  Harold is not just telling stories to get a chuckle, that
                  there is a literal Mahanta... WE are the white-haired lady
                  in the women's restroom that Harold talked about...

                  Even true stories are parables, especially when they involve
                  Harold and Joan.

                  In the restroom story (abbreviated version), Harold and
                  Joan were shopping. Joan went to the restroom, found a
                  white-haired lady waiting for the Women's room. The Men's
                  room was not occupied, so Joan asked the lady why she
                  didn't use it. The women said that it was for men only.

                  Harold said that he and Joan have a policy of using
                  'any port in the storm.' So Joan went into the Men's room.
                  Meanwhile, Harold comes along looking for a restroom,
                  finds the Men's room locked, so he tries the Women's room.
                  It's unlocked, he enters, and of course the white-haired lady
                  is there. She looks at him shocked. 'But this is the Women's room!'
                  she says.

                  HAROLD SAYS AS FAR AS HE'S CONCERNED THE RESTROOMS
                  ARE UNISEX. HE MUSED THAT HE WONDERED AT HOW THE
                  ECK USED HIM TO CHANGE THE STATE OF CONSCIOUSNESS
                  OF THE WHITE-HAIRED WOMAN.

                  This story puts a cap on a particularly nice Living Word
                  aspect of this talk. I've seen on many occasions how Harold
                  will say something that will tweak the human consciousness
                  (political or social or eck-related) , then in the same talk there
                  would be a story that addresses what he tweaks. This is how the
                  Living Word works.

                  Earlier in his talk when Joan was singing, she got a little
                  lost in singing the complete song and so it went on longer
                  than it should have. Harold made a comment about her
                  going on like that, and how sometimes at home he would
                  have to say something if she talks too long. It was a very male/
                  female comment...

                  So here we have Harold tweaking us on the male/female
                  thing and then later tells us a story that tries to remind us
                  not to get stuck in male/ female categories. That they are fine,
                  but we should not be like the white-haired lady, stuck in one
                  or the other. We should be thinking Unisex, SOUL, beyond
                  the categories. Change is Change (the title of the talk)... the
                  Mahanta. He is the agent of change sent by the ECK into our
                  bathroom to tweak us out of our stuck, white-haired old lady
                  views. My opinion. Your mileage may vary. Hu Mark_"


                  misha wrote:

                  For those of you wondering what great pearls of wisdom
                  came out of Klemp's recent talk at the eckankar world wide
                  seminar, Mark Alexander has shared some of his impressions
                  of Klemp's speak, calling it "The Living Word." BTW, I find
                  Mark's babbling to be more of his own discomfort in what
                  Klemp said--that he, too, must have been troubled by Klemp's
                  message just as well as the eckists who came up to him afterwards
                  questioning some of Klemp's remarks.
                  > >
                  here's few of my thoughts on what he shared.
                  > >

                  1. The bathroom story seems recycled as I read something
                  similar in one of Klemp's transcripts years ago . . . unless
                  Klemp still has a thing about bathrooms. It's odd he is directing
                  chelas to do some vahana work in public restrooms now!

                  Personally the whole bathroom talk, Unisex comments,
                  raising a white haired lady's consciousness, etc. is really
                  quite weird--but what can one expect from a guy who
                  disrobed in an airport. Klemp was out of balance then, and
                  he still is out of balance!
                  > >

                  2. It seems too that he doesn't like women, especially white
                  haired ones! I have to wonder if he loved his mother--or he
                  wouldn't so easily put down an older woman who reacted naturally
                  "shocked" when he entered a women's restroom. Too bad security
                  wasn't called on Klemp for doing this--maybe, he needs another
                  time out in a mental institution since it doesn't appear he was
                  cured from his mental unbalance and inappropriate behavior
                  the first time.

                  Telling chelas on such a large stage that he sometimes tells
                  Joan to quit talking at home, is really arrogant and disrespectful
                  of the one he should love and treasure the most--he certainly
                  is displaying male chauvinism and unloving behavior. Yeah,
                  Klemp talks about a unisex society but yet the male is still
                  dominant! LOL!

                  I think that Klemp inviting Joan to share the stage with him,
                  singing her little song, elevated her, but he also kept her in
                  a subordinate role. Yep, she'll help him keep the power, but
                  he will still run the show! So, much for equal footing--male/
                  female! Klemp is working hard to position Joan as a co-l.e.m.
                  but yet he isn't making it equal! But it is fun to watch his game.
                  I suppose he doesn't want another replay like Gail naming Twitchell's
                  replacement- -Klemp would like it to look more legitimate the
                  next time, in case something happens to him suddenly! : )
                  > >

                  Anyway . . .
                  I especially love the way Mark summed this all up in his last
                  paragraph! Too funny! Klemp is the agent of change going
                  into all and every public bathroom regardless of them being
                  for women or men--by golly, Klemp is going in there and
                  making changes . . . and his chelas are embracing this
                  idea as they too want to help with the change that obviously
                  can be started in such a basic and fundalmental places as
                  restrooms. Hey, just remember if the opposite gender comes
                  into the restroom you are using, don't be alarmed--it' s not
                  any nut or pervert, it's just a nutty, possibly perverted
                  eckist! So much for those special, elevated spiritual teachings! : )

                  Mish
                • prometheus_973
                  Doesn t it seem like there is a Lack of Communication between these two (Harry & Joan), as well as, a problem with bladder control (lower chakra health)! One s
                  Message 8 of 11 , Dec 26, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Doesn't it seem like there is a Lack of Communication
                    between these two (Harry & Joan), as well as, a problem
                    with bladder control (lower chakra health)! One's a 14th
                    Initiate and the other a 9th Initiate and yet most average
                    couples (non-Eckists) communicate better and are more
                    capable than these two goofs!

                    Can't HK go into the men's restroom with Joan?! Sure! And,
                    where's that "inner (and outer) communication" to Know where
                    Joan is? Where's the Mahanta's "intuition" and "insight" for Harry
                    Not to know the men's room was locked because Joan was in there!

                    Is the Mahanta Consciousness limited to KNOWING these things!
                    It's ridiculous! Klemp is a mini-master scammer! One can see the
                    "proof in the pudding" that ECK Initiations are Bogus! Would this
                    comedy of errors happen to Rebazar? Would Rebazar get "punked"
                    by the KAL? Of course Not!

                    Klemp is Not a real Master anyway, and Rebazar is a fictional
                    character created by Twitchell in order to "initiate" himself!

                    Plus, just read the stupid stories sent to The Mystic World,
                    H.I. Letter, and RESA Star! These H.I.s are talking about
                    really basic stuff as though it's a revelation in consciousness
                    and a miracle due to the Mahanta interceding for them! One
                    can read these same type of stories, if not better or greater
                    ones and examples of faith, from other religions that Eckankar
                    views as lesser (lower) spiritual paths! Eckists really need to
                    get out more with non-Eckists and read more non-Eck books.
                    And, everyone really need to take people off those pedestals...
                    no one should be placed Higher (or lower) than Oneself!

                    Prometheus

                    prometheus wrote:
                    >
                    > In the 12/2007 Mystic World Sharon Kunin's
                    > article is Damage Control for Klemp's 2007
                    > EWWS "RESTROOMS ARE UNISEX" comments!
                    >
                    > Sharon's article begins on page 1 and is titled,
                    > "A Year of Blessing." On page 7 Sharon states
                    > that Klemp walked into the women's restroom
                    > where:

                    ***
                    "... he (HK) encountered a very alarmed
                    white-haired woman standing at the sink.
                    Excusing himself, SRI HAROLD RETURNED TO
                    THE MEN'S ROOM JUST AS JOAN EMERGED..."
                    ***

                    > Now how does this... Oh! er excuse me madame!
                    > "Change" her consciousness? What happened to
                    > "Restrooms Are Unisex!"
                    >
                    > Or, did HK follow the Law of Silence and whispered
                    > or whimpered to himself, under his breath, Restrooms
                    > Should Be (are) Unisex Damnit! I Have Spoken!!!
                    > Maybe Klemp only shared his thoughts of what he
                    > wanted to say to that "Alarmed" white-haired woman?
                    > Maybe it was all made-up and he lied that he had said
                    > anything.
                    >
                    > Maybe this is what Sharon is really pointing out. Klemp
                    > lied to ECKists at the 2007 EWWS and never told that
                    > woman that Restrooms Are Unisex!
                    >
                    > I guess that the Holocaust didn't happen either!
                    >
                    > Or maybe, the Klemp's, the ESC and RESA Police
                    > are trying to re-write ECKANKAR History with this
                    > Damage Control! Almost everyone was embarrassed
                    > by Klemp's stupid comments and this generated
                    > a reaction of mass disapproval by the more sane ECKists!
                    >
                    > Although HK is out-of-control the EK Board can't
                    > do anything about it like they did with Gross! They
                    > allowed Klemp to restructure things giving himself
                    > sole authority. Too bad so sad! But what goes around
                    > comes around... that's karma isn't it?! LOL!
                    >
                    > I wonder what ECKists are thinking about this
                    > rewrite by Sharon Kunin which was approved
                    > of by both Joan and Harold? Do they think that
                    > this will make things better or that HK's nutty
                    > comments will all go away? I'll bet the tape of
                    > that talk gets edited along with the written version
                    > of it in the next Mahanta Transcripts!
                    >
                    > If there wasn't anything to hide (change)...
                    > Why Are They Doing This?!
                    >
                    > Let's just "change" Truth into Fiction... this seems
                    > to be the ECKANKAR way of viewing life! Or, maybe
                    > ECKists like Mark just "imagined" they saw and heard
                    > the Mahanta when it was actually the KAL!
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    > p.s. HK's comments to Joan to "hush-up" weren't
                    > appreciated either by ECKists!
                    >
                    >
                    > On HuChat, Mark Alexander wrote:
                    >
                    > "I always listen to Harold's talk as if they were Living
                    > Shariyat dreams... Sometimes I think people forget that
                    > Harold is not just telling stories to get a chuckle, that
                    > there is a literal Mahanta... WE are the white-haired lady
                    > in the women's restroom that Harold talked about...
                    >
                    > Even true stories are parables, especially when they involve
                    > Harold and Joan.
                    >
                    > In the restroom story (abbreviated version), Harold and
                    > Joan were shopping. Joan went to the restroom, found a
                    > white-haired lady waiting for the Women's room. The Men's
                    > room was not occupied, so Joan asked the lady why she
                    > didn't use it. The women said that it was for men only.
                    >
                    > Harold said that he and Joan have a policy of using
                    > 'any port in the storm.' So Joan went into the Men's room.
                    > Meanwhile, Harold comes along looking for a restroom,
                    > finds the Men's room locked, so he tries the Women's room.
                    > It's unlocked, he enters, and of course the white-haired lady
                    > is there. She looks at him shocked. 'But this is the Women's room!'
                    > she says.
                    >
                    > HAROLD SAYS AS FAR AS HE'S CONCERNED THE RESTROOMS
                    > ARE UNISEX. HE MUSED THAT HE WONDERED AT HOW THE
                    > ECK USED HIM TO CHANGE THE STATE OF CONSCIOUSNESS
                    > OF THE WHITE-HAIRED WOMAN.
                    >
                    > This story puts a cap on a particularly nice Living Word
                    > aspect of this talk. I've seen on many occasions how Harold
                    > will say something that will tweak the human consciousness
                    > (political or social or eck-related) , then in the same talk there
                    > would be a story that addresses what he tweaks. This is how the
                    > Living Word works.
                    >
                    > Earlier in his talk when Joan was singing, she got a little
                    > lost in singing the complete song and so it went on longer
                    > than it should have. Harold made a comment about her
                    > going on like that, and how sometimes at home he would
                    > have to say something if she talks too long. It was a very male/
                    > female comment...
                    >
                    > So here we have Harold tweaking us on the male/female
                    > thing and then later tells us a story that tries to remind us
                    > not to get stuck in male/ female categories. That they are fine,
                    > but we should not be like the white-haired lady, stuck in one
                    > or the other. We should be thinking Unisex, SOUL, beyond
                    > the categories. Change is Change (the title of the talk)... the
                    > Mahanta. He is the agent of change sent by the ECK into our
                    > bathroom to tweak us out of our stuck, white-haired old lady
                    > views. My opinion. Your mileage may vary. Hu Mark_"
                    >
                    >
                    > misha wrote:
                    >
                    > For those of you wondering what great pearls of wisdom
                    > came out of Klemp's recent talk at the eckankar world wide
                    > seminar, Mark Alexander has shared some of his impressions
                    > of Klemp's speak, calling it "The Living Word." BTW, I find
                    > Mark's babbling to be more of his own discomfort in what
                    > Klemp said--that he, too, must have been troubled by Klemp's
                    > message just as well as the eckists who came up to him afterwards
                    > questioning some of Klemp's remarks.
                    > > >
                    > here's few of my thoughts on what he shared.
                    > > >
                    >
                    > 1. The bathroom story seems recycled as I read something
                    > similar in one of Klemp's transcripts years ago . . . unless
                    > Klemp still has a thing about bathrooms. It's odd he is directing
                    > chelas to do some vahana work in public restrooms now!
                    >
                    > Personally the whole bathroom talk, Unisex comments,
                    > raising a white haired lady's consciousness, etc. is really
                    > quite weird--but what can one expect from a guy who
                    > disrobed in an airport. Klemp was out of balance then, and
                    > he still is out of balance!
                    > > >
                    >
                    > 2. It seems too that he doesn't like women, especially white
                    > haired ones! I have to wonder if he loved his mother--or he
                    > wouldn't so easily put down an older woman who reacted naturally
                    > "shocked" when he entered a women's restroom. Too bad security
                    > wasn't called on Klemp for doing this--maybe, he needs another
                    > time out in a mental institution since it doesn't appear he was
                    > cured from his mental unbalance and inappropriate behavior
                    > the first time.
                    >
                    > Telling chelas on such a large stage that he sometimes tells
                    > Joan to quit talking at home, is really arrogant and disrespectful
                    > of the one he should love and treasure the most--he certainly
                    > is displaying male chauvinism and unloving behavior. Yeah,
                    > Klemp talks about a unisex society but yet the male is still
                    > dominant! LOL!
                    >
                    > I think that Klemp inviting Joan to share the stage with him,
                    > singing her little song, elevated her, but he also kept her in
                    > a subordinate role. Yep, she'll help him keep the power, but
                    > he will still run the show! So, much for equal footing--male/
                    > female! Klemp is working hard to position Joan as a co-l.e.m.
                    > but yet he isn't making it equal! But it is fun to watch his game.
                    > I suppose he doesn't want another replay like Gail naming Twitchell's
                    > replacement- -Klemp would like it to look more legitimate the
                    > next time, in case something happens to him suddenly! : )
                    > > >
                    >
                    > Anyway . . .
                    > I especially love the way Mark summed this all up in his last
                    > paragraph! Too funny! Klemp is the agent of change going
                    > into all and every public bathroom regardless of them being
                    > for women or men--by golly, Klemp is going in there and
                    > making changes . . . and his chelas are embracing this
                    > idea as they too want to help with the change that obviously
                    > can be started in such a basic and fundalmental places as
                    > restrooms. Hey, just remember if the opposite gender comes
                    > into the restroom you are using, don't be alarmed--it' s not
                    > any nut or pervert, it's just a nutty, possibly perverted
                    > eckist! So much for those special, elevated spiritual teachings! : )
                    >
                    > Mish
                    >
                  • mishmisha9
                    Hi, All! I think I already mentioned in another post regarding HK s bathroom stunt EWWS talk story, that HK has told similar bathroom stories in the past
                    Message 9 of 11 , Dec 28, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hi, All!

                      I think I already mentioned in another post regarding HK's
                      bathroom "stunt" EWWS talk story, that HK has told similar
                      bathroom stories in the past where Joan and/or he will go
                      into the opposite gender restrooms due to their impatience of
                      waiting until the proper restroom is available or their own
                      poor timing in going off to take care of their basic needs!
                      Why HK and Joan think this is appropriate and acceptable
                      behavior is really amusing as many would think it perverted
                      and maybe would report them to store security. LOL!

                      Anyway, it seems for HK, the highlights of his day are such
                      activities. His life is so mundune and so uninspiring that he
                      grasps for any kind of event to make it sound inspirational--
                      such as going into the opposite gender public restrooms,
                      disturbing a white haired lady, and hooking this weirdness into
                      some sort of change is change story for chelas to learn from! : )

                      It is very revealing that Sharon Kunin has written her own
                      condensed version of HK's talk, leaving out some "important"
                      details from Mark Alexander's eye witness account. I wonder
                      why Sharon Kunin has down played the bathroom story and
                      omitted some key elements? I wonder how the master of the
                      universe HK feels about the alteration of his story? It seems
                      this re-write by Sharon Kunin indicates some other eck org
                      higher ups also have a problem with the story as told by HK--
                      and perhaps they are in agreement with some of the perspectives
                      that we on ESA have regarding wily-nilly use of public restrooms!
                      Do you think HK has embarrassed his inner circle of H.I. friends?
                      Seems like it, doesn't it, with Sharon Kunin (Doug's wife) taking
                      on this re-telling?

                      Meanwhile, HK and Joan should change their bathroom habits--
                      like not waiting too long before finding a restroom for use or
                      maybe they need to see a "real" doctor to discuss their
                      incontinent problems! If not a physical defect, then a good
                      psychologist might be able to figure out why HK has such
                      bathroom fetishes--probably goes back to his childhood toilet
                      training? It might be why the white haired (mother figure) lady
                      is so significant to HK's story???

                      But in the meantime, the eck org continues to re-write their
                      history, even recent history such as HK's EWWS talk in order
                      for it to filter better out to the duped chelas and the general
                      public who might stumble onto this whacky religious cult!
                      Change is change but it doesn't need to be implemented in
                      public restrooms! I shudder to think at what other crazy little
                      ideas/thoughts will spill out of HK's mouth next! But when
                      chelas take this bathroom story so seriously and try to do as
                      the mahanta does, well, it just shows how following anyone,
                      cult leader/hero, can take one down a slippery slope of
                      unreasonable thinking and behaviors. : )

                      Mish



                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                      "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Doesn't it seem like there is a Lack of Communication
                      > between these two (Harry & Joan), as well as, a problem
                      > with bladder control (lower chakra health)! One's a 14th
                      > Initiate and the other a 9th Initiate and yet most average
                      > couples (non-Eckists) communicate better and are more
                      > capable than these two goofs!
                      >
                      > Can't HK go into the men's restroom with Joan?! Sure! And,
                      > where's that "inner (and outer) communication" to Know where
                      > Joan is? Where's the Mahanta's "intuition" and "insight" for Harry
                      > Not to know the men's room was locked because Joan was in there!
                      >
                      > Is the Mahanta Consciousness limited to KNOWING these things!
                      > It's ridiculous! Klemp is a mini-master scammer! One can see the
                      > "proof in the pudding" that ECK Initiations are Bogus! Would this
                      > comedy of errors happen to Rebazar? Would Rebazar get "punked"
                      > by the KAL? Of course Not!
                      >
                      > Klemp is Not a real Master anyway, and Rebazar is a fictional
                      > character created by Twitchell in order to "initiate" himself!
                      >
                      > Plus, just read the stupid stories sent to The Mystic World,
                      > H.I. Letter, and RESA Star! These H.I.s are talking about
                      > really basic stuff as though it's a revelation in consciousness
                      > and a miracle due to the Mahanta interceding for them! One
                      > can read these same type of stories, if not better or greater
                      > ones and examples of faith, from other religions that Eckankar
                      > views as lesser (lower) spiritual paths! Eckists really need to
                      > get out more with non-Eckists and read more non-Eck books.
                      > And, everyone really need to take people off those pedestals...
                      > no one should be placed Higher (or lower) than Oneself!
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                      >
                      > prometheus wrote:
                      > >
                      > > In the 12/2007 Mystic World Sharon Kunin's
                      > > article is Damage Control for Klemp's 2007
                      > > EWWS "RESTROOMS ARE UNISEX" comments!
                      > >
                      > > Sharon's article begins on page 1 and is titled,
                      > > "A Year of Blessing." On page 7 Sharon states
                      > > that Klemp walked into the women's restroom
                      > > where:
                      >
                      > ***
                      > "... he (HK) encountered a very alarmed
                      > white-haired woman standing at the sink.
                      > Excusing himself, SRI HAROLD RETURNED TO
                      > THE MEN'S ROOM JUST AS JOAN EMERGED..."
                      > ***
                      >
                      > > Now how does this... Oh! er excuse me madame!
                      > > "Change" her consciousness? What happened to
                      > > "Restrooms Are Unisex!"
                      > >
                      > > Or, did HK follow the Law of Silence and whispered
                      > > or whimpered to himself, under his breath, Restrooms
                      > > Should Be (are) Unisex Damnit! I Have Spoken!!!
                      > > Maybe Klemp only shared his thoughts of what he
                      > > wanted to say to that "Alarmed" white-haired woman?
                      > > Maybe it was all made-up and he lied that he had said
                      > > anything.
                      > >
                      > > Maybe this is what Sharon is really pointing out. Klemp
                      > > lied to ECKists at the 2007 EWWS and never told that
                      > > woman that Restrooms Are Unisex!
                      > >
                      > > I guess that the Holocaust didn't happen either!
                      > >
                      > > Or maybe, the Klemp's, the ESC and RESA Police
                      > > are trying to re-write ECKANKAR History with this
                      > > Damage Control! Almost everyone was embarrassed
                      > > by Klemp's stupid comments and this generated
                      > > a reaction of mass disapproval by the more sane ECKists!
                      > >
                      > > Although HK is out-of-control the EK Board can't
                      > > do anything about it like they did with Gross! They
                      > > allowed Klemp to restructure things giving himself
                      > > sole authority. Too bad so sad! But what goes around
                      > > comes around... that's karma isn't it?! LOL!
                      > >
                      > > I wonder what ECKists are thinking about this
                      > > rewrite by Sharon Kunin which was approved
                      > > of by both Joan and Harold? Do they think that
                      > > this will make things better or that HK's nutty
                      > > comments will all go away? I'll bet the tape of
                      > > that talk gets edited along with the written version
                      > > of it in the next Mahanta Transcripts!
                      > >
                      > > If there wasn't anything to hide (change)...
                      > > Why Are They Doing This?!
                      > >
                      > > Let's just "change" Truth into Fiction... this seems
                      > > to be the ECKANKAR way of viewing life! Or, maybe
                      > > ECKists like Mark just "imagined" they saw and heard
                      > > the Mahanta when it was actually the KAL!
                      > >
                      > > Prometheus
                      > > p.s. HK's comments to Joan to "hush-up" weren't
                      > > appreciated either by ECKists!
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > On HuChat, Mark Alexander wrote:
                      > >
                      > > "I always listen to Harold's talk as if they were Living
                      > > Shariyat dreams... Sometimes I think people forget that
                      > > Harold is not just telling stories to get a chuckle, that
                      > > there is a literal Mahanta... WE are the white-haired lady
                      > > in the women's restroom that Harold talked about...
                      > >
                      > > Even true stories are parables, especially when they involve
                      > > Harold and Joan.
                      > >
                      > > In the restroom story (abbreviated version), Harold and
                      > > Joan were shopping. Joan went to the restroom, found a
                      > > white-haired lady waiting for the Women's room. The Men's
                      > > room was not occupied, so Joan asked the lady why she
                      > > didn't use it. The women said that it was for men only.
                      > >
                      > > Harold said that he and Joan have a policy of using
                      > > 'any port in the storm.' So Joan went into the Men's room.
                      > > Meanwhile, Harold comes along looking for a restroom,
                      > > finds the Men's room locked, so he tries the Women's room.
                      > > It's unlocked, he enters, and of course the white-haired lady
                      > > is there. She looks at him shocked. 'But this is the Women's room!'
                      > > she says.
                      > >
                      > > HAROLD SAYS AS FAR AS HE'S CONCERNED THE RESTROOMS
                      > > ARE UNISEX. HE MUSED THAT HE WONDERED AT HOW THE
                      > > ECK USED HIM TO CHANGE THE STATE OF CONSCIOUSNESS
                      > > OF THE WHITE-HAIRED WOMAN.
                      > >
                      > > This story puts a cap on a particularly nice Living Word
                      > > aspect of this talk. I've seen on many occasions how Harold
                      > > will say something that will tweak the human consciousness
                      > > (political or social or eck-related) , then in the same talk there
                      > > would be a story that addresses what he tweaks. This is how the
                      > > Living Word works.
                      > >
                      > > Earlier in his talk when Joan was singing, she got a little
                      > > lost in singing the complete song and so it went on longer
                      > > than it should have. Harold made a comment about her
                      > > going on like that, and how sometimes at home he would
                      > > have to say something if she talks too long. It was a very male/
                      > > female comment...
                      > >
                      > > So here we have Harold tweaking us on the male/female
                      > > thing and then later tells us a story that tries to remind us
                      > > not to get stuck in male/ female categories. That they are fine,
                      > > but we should not be like the white-haired lady, stuck in one
                      > > or the other. We should be thinking Unisex, SOUL, beyond
                      > > the categories. Change is Change (the title of the talk)... the
                      > > Mahanta. He is the agent of change sent by the ECK into our
                      > > bathroom to tweak us out of our stuck, white-haired old lady
                      > > views. My opinion. Your mileage may vary. Hu Mark_"
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > misha wrote:
                      > >
                      > > For those of you wondering what great pearls of wisdom
                      > > came out of Klemp's recent talk at the eckankar world wide
                      > > seminar, Mark Alexander has shared some of his impressions
                      > > of Klemp's speak, calling it "The Living Word." BTW, I find
                      > > Mark's babbling to be more of his own discomfort in what
                      > > Klemp said--that he, too, must have been troubled by Klemp's
                      > > message just as well as the eckists who came up to him afterwards
                      > > questioning some of Klemp's remarks.
                      > > > >
                      > > here's few of my thoughts on what he shared.
                      > > > >
                      > >
                      > > 1. The bathroom story seems recycled as I read something
                      > > similar in one of Klemp's transcripts years ago . . . unless
                      > > Klemp still has a thing about bathrooms. It's odd he is directing
                      > > chelas to do some vahana work in public restrooms now!
                      > >
                      > > Personally the whole bathroom talk, Unisex comments,
                      > > raising a white haired lady's consciousness, etc. is really
                      > > quite weird--but what can one expect from a guy who
                      > > disrobed in an airport. Klemp was out of balance then, and
                      > > he still is out of balance!
                      > > > >
                      > >
                      > > 2. It seems too that he doesn't like women, especially white
                      > > haired ones! I have to wonder if he loved his mother--or he
                      > > wouldn't so easily put down an older woman who reacted naturally
                      > > "shocked" when he entered a women's restroom. Too bad security
                      > > wasn't called on Klemp for doing this--maybe, he needs another
                      > > time out in a mental institution since it doesn't appear he was
                      > > cured from his mental unbalance and inappropriate behavior
                      > > the first time.
                      > >
                      > > Telling chelas on such a large stage that he sometimes tells
                      > > Joan to quit talking at home, is really arrogant and disrespectful
                      > > of the one he should love and treasure the most--he certainly
                      > > is displaying male chauvinism and unloving behavior. Yeah,
                      > > Klemp talks about a unisex society but yet the male is still
                      > > dominant! LOL!
                      > >
                      > > I think that Klemp inviting Joan to share the stage with him,
                      > > singing her little song, elevated her, but he also kept her in
                      > > a subordinate role. Yep, she'll help him keep the power, but
                      > > he will still run the show! So, much for equal footing--male/
                      > > female! Klemp is working hard to position Joan as a co-l.e.m.
                      > > but yet he isn't making it equal! But it is fun to watch his game.
                      > > I suppose he doesn't want another replay like Gail naming Twitchell's
                      > > replacement- -Klemp would like it to look more legitimate the
                      > > next time, in case something happens to him suddenly! : )
                      > > > >
                      > >
                      > > Anyway . . .
                      > > I especially love the way Mark summed this all up in his last
                      > > paragraph! Too funny! Klemp is the agent of change going
                      > > into all and every public bathroom regardless of them being
                      > > for women or men--by golly, Klemp is going in there and
                      > > making changes . . . and his chelas are embracing this
                      > > idea as they too want to help with the change that obviously
                      > > can be started in such a basic and fundalmental places as
                      > > restrooms. Hey, just remember if the opposite gender comes
                      > > into the restroom you are using, don't be alarmed--it' s not
                      > > any nut or pervert, it's just a nutty, possibly perverted
                      > > eckist! So much for those special, elevated spiritual teachings! : )
                      > >
                      > > Mish
                      > >
                      >
                    • prometheus_973
                      Hi Mish and All, It looks to me like Joan and Sharon (others too?) planned to do some Damage Control without Harry knowing what they were up to. I know HK read
                      Message 10 of 11 , Dec 28, 2007
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                        Hi Mish and All,
                        It looks to me like Joan and Sharon (others too?) planned
                        to do some Damage Control without Harry knowing what
                        they were up to. I know HK read and approved Sharon's
                        article, but I don't think he noticed WHY it was written
                        with certain details omitted.

                        Afterall, the title of HK's talk was "Change is Change"
                        and Klemp states that he "changed" the white-haired
                        woman's consciousness! And, HK said (to all ECKists)
                        that as far as he was concerned, "Restrooms Are Unisex!"

                        Klemp states at the end of his 12/2007 WISDOM NOTES:
                        "It's all about consciousness; it's all about love."

                        What happened to the Law of Non-Interference? How
                        "loving" was Klemp to this white-haired woman when
                        he "alarmed" her and invaded her private space?

                        According to Sharon Kunin HK just excused himself to
                        the woman and left. How did this "change her consciousness"
                        or show "love?" HK states that "It's all about consciousness"
                        and "love," but WHY did HK claim to Interfere with the Current
                        State of the Woman's Consciousness Without Her Permission?

                        Don't Black Magicians or agents of the KAL manipulate
                        or "change" people without their permission? Sure!

                        Another thing! HK only states that he "Changed" the woman's
                        consciousness BUT doesn't say in Which direction, or in What
                        way! Will she now go and jump off the I-35 bridge! Did she
                        (a non-ECKist) receive God Realization by the Restroom
                        Mahanta!

                        Yes, it seems that Joan and Sharon (Doug and other Board
                        members too?) decided to do a seminar recap with certain
                        embarrassing details left out. I wonder what Harry will think
                        about that now that it's been pointed out?!

                        Prometheus
                        ********************************************************
                        Sharon Kunin's 12/2007 EK Mystic World article begins
                        on page 1 and is titled, "A Year of Blessing." On page
                        7 Sharon states that Harold Klemp (the Mahanta) walked
                        into the women's restroom where:

                        "... he (HK) encountered a very alarmed
                        white-haired woman standing at the sink.
                        Excusing himself, SRI HAROLD RETURNED TO
                        THE MEN'S ROOM JUST AS JOAN EMERGED..."

                        Mark A. shares his notes of HK's 2007 EWWS talk on HU-Chat:

                        "HAROLD SAYS AS FAR AS HE'S CONCERNED THE RESTROOMS
                        ARE UNISEX. HE MUSED THAT HE WONDERED AT HOW THE
                        ECK USED HIM TO CHANGE THE STATE OF CONSCIOUSNESS
                        OF THE WHITE-HAIRED WOMAN...

                        EARLIER IN HIS TALK WHEN JOAN WAS SINGING, SHE GOT
                        A LITTLE LOST IN SINGING THE COMPLETE SONG AND SO
                        IT WENT ON LONGER THAN IT SHOULD HAVE. HAROLD MADE
                        A COMMENT ABOUT HER GOING ON LIKE THAT, AND HOW
                        SOMETIMES AT HOME HE WOULD HAVE TO SAY SOMETHING
                        IF SHE TALKS TOO LONG. IT WAS A VERY MALE/FEMALE
                        COMMENT..."

                        ***************************************************************

                        mish wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi, All!
                        >
                        > I think I already mentioned in another post regarding HK's
                        > bathroom "stunt" EWWS talk story, that HK has told similar
                        > bathroom stories in the past where Joan and/or he will go
                        > into the opposite gender restrooms due to their impatience of
                        > waiting until the proper restroom is available or their own
                        > poor timing in going off to take care of their basic needs!
                        > Why HK and Joan think this is appropriate and acceptable
                        > behavior is really amusing as many would think it perverted
                        > and maybe would report them to store security. LOL!
                        >
                        > Anyway, it seems for HK, the highlights of his day are such
                        > activities. His life is so mundune and so uninspiring that he
                        > grasps for any kind of event to make it sound inspirational--
                        > such as going into the opposite gender public restrooms,
                        > disturbing a white haired lady, and hooking this weirdness into
                        > some sort of change is change story for chelas to learn from! : )
                        >
                        > It is very revealing that Sharon Kunin has written her own
                        > condensed version of HK's talk, leaving out some "important"
                        > details from Mark Alexander's eye witness account. I wonder
                        > why Sharon Kunin has down played the bathroom story and
                        > omitted some key elements? I wonder how the master of the
                        > universe HK feels about the alteration of his story? It seems
                        > this re-write by Sharon Kunin indicates some other eck org
                        > higher ups also have a problem with the story as told by HK--
                        > and perhaps they are in agreement with some of the perspectives
                        > that we on ESA have regarding wily-nilly use of public restrooms!
                        > Do you think HK has embarrassed his inner circle of H.I. friends?
                        > Seems like it, doesn't it, with Sharon Kunin (Doug's wife) taking
                        > on this re-telling?
                        >
                        > Meanwhile, HK and Joan should change their bathroom habits--
                        > like not waiting too long before finding a restroom for use or
                        > maybe they need to see a "real" doctor to discuss their
                        > incontinent problems! If not a physical defect, then a good
                        > psychologist might be able to figure out why HK has such
                        > bathroom fetishes--probably goes back to his childhood toilet
                        > training? It might be why the white haired (mother figure) lady
                        > is so significant to HK's story???
                        >
                        > But in the meantime, the eck org continues to re-write their
                        > history, even recent history such as HK's EWWS talk in order
                        > for it to filter better out to the duped chelas and the general
                        > public who might stumble onto this whacky religious cult!
                        > Change is change but it doesn't need to be implemented in
                        > public restrooms! I shudder to think at what other crazy little
                        > ideas/thoughts will spill out of HK's mouth next! But when
                        > chelas take this bathroom story so seriously and try to do as
                        > the mahanta does, well, it just shows how following anyone,
                        > cult leader/hero, can take one down a slippery slope of
                        > unreasonable thinking and behaviors. : )
                        >
                        > Mish
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                        > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Doesn't it seem like there is a Lack of Communication
                        > > between these two (Harry & Joan), as well as, a problem
                        > > with bladder control (lower chakra health)! One's a 14th
                        > > Initiate and the other a 9th Initiate and yet most average
                        > > couples (non-Eckists) communicate better and are more
                        > > capable than these two goofs!
                        > >
                        > > Can't HK go into the men's restroom with Joan?! Sure! And,
                        > > where's that "inner (and outer) communication" to Know where
                        > > Joan is? Where's the Mahanta's "intuition" and "insight" for Harry
                        > > Not to know the men's room was locked because Joan was in there!
                        > >
                        > > Is the Mahanta Consciousness limited to KNOWING these things!
                        > > It's ridiculous! Klemp is a mini-master scammer! One can see the
                        > > "proof in the pudding" that ECK Initiations are Bogus! Would this
                        > > comedy of errors happen to Rebazar? Would Rebazar get "punked"
                        > > by the KAL? Of course Not!
                        > >
                        > > Klemp is Not a real Master anyway, and Rebazar is a fictional
                        > > character created by Twitchell in order to "initiate" himself!
                        > >
                        > > Plus, just read the stupid stories sent to The Mystic World,
                        > > H.I. Letter, and RESA Star! These H.I.s are talking about
                        > > really basic stuff as though it's a revelation in consciousness
                        > > and a miracle due to the Mahanta interceding for them! One
                        > > can read these same type of stories, if not better or greater
                        > > ones and examples of faith, from other religions that Eckankar
                        > > views as lesser (lower) spiritual paths! Eckists really need to
                        > > get out more with non-Eckists and read more non-Eck books.
                        > > And, everyone really need to take people off those pedestals...
                        > > no one should be placed Higher (or lower) than Oneself!
                        > >
                        > > Prometheus
                        > >
                        > > prometheus wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > In the 12/2007 Mystic World Sharon Kunin's
                        > > > article is Damage Control for Klemp's 2007
                        > > > EWWS "RESTROOMS ARE UNISEX" comments!
                        > > >
                        > > > Sharon's article begins on page 1 and is titled,
                        > > > "A Year of Blessing." On page 7 Sharon states
                        > > > that Klemp walked into the women's restroom
                        > > > where:
                        > >
                        > > ***
                        > > "... he (HK) encountered a very alarmed
                        > > white-haired woman standing at the sink.
                        > > Excusing himself, SRI HAROLD RETURNED TO
                        > > THE MEN'S ROOM JUST AS JOAN EMERGED..."
                        > > ***
                        > >
                        > > > Now how does this... Oh! er excuse me madame!
                        > > > "Change" her consciousness? What happened to
                        > > > "Restrooms Are Unisex!"
                        > > >
                        > > > Or, did HK follow the Law of Silence and whispered
                        > > > or whimpered to himself, under his breath, Restrooms
                        > > > Should Be (are) Unisex Damnit! I Have Spoken!!!
                        > > > Maybe Klemp only shared his thoughts of what he
                        > > > wanted to say to that "Alarmed" white-haired woman?
                        > > > Maybe it was all made-up and he lied that he had said
                        > > > anything.
                        > > >
                        > > > Maybe this is what Sharon is really pointing out. Klemp
                        > > > lied to ECKists at the 2007 EWWS and never told that
                        > > > woman that Restrooms Are Unisex!
                        > > >
                        > > > I guess that the Holocaust didn't happen either!
                        > > >
                        > > > Or maybe, the Klemp's, the ESC and RESA Police
                        > > > are trying to re-write ECKANKAR History with this
                        > > > Damage Control! Almost everyone was embarrassed
                        > > > by Klemp's stupid comments and this generated
                        > > > a reaction of mass disapproval by the more sane ECKists!
                        > > >
                        > > > Although HK is out-of-control the EK Board can't
                        > > > do anything about it like they did with Gross! They
                        > > > allowed Klemp to restructure things giving himself
                        > > > sole authority. Too bad so sad! But what goes around
                        > > > comes around... that's karma isn't it?! LOL!
                        > > >
                        > > > I wonder what ECKists are thinking about this
                        > > > rewrite by Sharon Kunin which was approved
                        > > > of by both Joan and Harold? Do they think that
                        > > > this will make things better or that HK's nutty
                        > > > comments will all go away? I'll bet the tape of
                        > > > that talk gets edited along with the written version
                        > > > of it in the next Mahanta Transcripts!
                        > > >
                        > > > If there wasn't anything to hide (change)...
                        > > > Why Are They Doing This?!
                        > > >
                        > > > Let's just "change" Truth into Fiction... this seems
                        > > > to be the ECKANKAR way of viewing life! Or, maybe
                        > > > ECKists like Mark just "imagined" they saw and heard
                        > > > the Mahanta when it was actually the KAL!
                        > > >
                        > > > Prometheus
                        > > > p.s. HK's comments to Joan to "hush-up" weren't
                        > > > appreciated either by ECKists!
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > On HuChat, Mark Alexander wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > "I always listen to Harold's talk as if they were Living
                        > > > Shariyat dreams... Sometimes I think people forget that
                        > > > Harold is not just telling stories to get a chuckle, that
                        > > > there is a literal Mahanta... WE are the white-haired lady
                        > > > in the women's restroom that Harold talked about...
                        > > >
                        > > > Even true stories are parables, especially when they involve
                        > > > Harold and Joan.
                        > > >
                        > > > In the restroom story (abbreviated version), Harold and
                        > > > Joan were shopping. Joan went to the restroom, found a
                        > > > white-haired lady waiting for the Women's room. The Men's
                        > > > room was not occupied, so Joan asked the lady why she
                        > > > didn't use it. The women said that it was for men only.
                        > > >
                        > > > Harold said that he and Joan have a policy of using
                        > > > 'any port in the storm.' So Joan went into the Men's room.
                        > > > Meanwhile, Harold comes along looking for a restroom,
                        > > > finds the Men's room locked, so he tries the Women's room.
                        > > > It's unlocked, he enters, and of course the white-haired lady
                        > > > is there. She looks at him shocked. 'But this is the Women's room!'
                        > > > she says.
                        > > >
                        > > > HAROLD SAYS AS FAR AS HE'S CONCERNED THE RESTROOMS
                        > > > ARE UNISEX. HE MUSED THAT HE WONDERED AT HOW THE
                        > > > ECK USED HIM TO CHANGE THE STATE OF CONSCIOUSNESS
                        > > > OF THE WHITE-HAIRED WOMAN.
                        > > >
                        > > > This story puts a cap on a particularly nice Living Word
                        > > > aspect of this talk. I've seen on many occasions how Harold
                        > > > will say something that will tweak the human consciousness
                        > > > (political or social or eck-related) , then in the same talk there
                        > > > would be a story that addresses what he tweaks. This is how the
                        > > > Living Word works.
                        > > >
                        > > > Earlier in his talk when Joan was singing, she got a little
                        > > > lost in singing the complete song and so it went on longer
                        > > > than it should have. Harold made a comment about her
                        > > > going on like that, and how sometimes at home he would
                        > > > have to say something if she talks too long. It was a very male/
                        > > > female comment...
                        > > >
                        > > > So here we have Harold tweaking us on the male/female
                        > > > thing and then later tells us a story that tries to remind us
                        > > > not to get stuck in male/ female categories. That they are fine,
                        > > > but we should not be like the white-haired lady, stuck in one
                        > > > or the other. We should be thinking Unisex, SOUL, beyond
                        > > > the categories. Change is Change (the title of the talk)... the
                        > > > Mahanta. He is the agent of change sent by the ECK into our
                        > > > bathroom to tweak us out of our stuck, white-haired old lady
                        > > > views. My opinion. Your mileage may vary. Hu Mark_"
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > misha wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > For those of you wondering what great pearls of wisdom
                        > > > came out of Klemp's recent talk at the eckankar world wide
                        > > > seminar, Mark Alexander has shared some of his impressions
                        > > > of Klemp's speak, calling it "The Living Word." BTW, I find
                        > > > Mark's babbling to be more of his own discomfort in what
                        > > > Klemp said--that he, too, must have been troubled by Klemp's
                        > > > message just as well as the eckists who came up to him afterwards
                        > > > questioning some of Klemp's remarks.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > here's few of my thoughts on what he shared.
                        > > > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > 1. The bathroom story seems recycled as I read something
                        > > > similar in one of Klemp's transcripts years ago . . . unless
                        > > > Klemp still has a thing about bathrooms. It's odd he is directing
                        > > > chelas to do some vahana work in public restrooms now!
                        > > >
                        > > > Personally the whole bathroom talk, Unisex comments,
                        > > > raising a white haired lady's consciousness, etc. is really
                        > > > quite weird--but what can one expect from a guy who
                        > > > disrobed in an airport. Klemp was out of balance then, and
                        > > > he still is out of balance!
                        > > > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > 2. It seems too that he doesn't like women, especially white
                        > > > haired ones! I have to wonder if he loved his mother--or he
                        > > > wouldn't so easily put down an older woman who reacted naturally
                        > > > "shocked" when he entered a women's restroom. Too bad security
                        > > > wasn't called on Klemp for doing this--maybe, he needs another
                        > > > time out in a mental institution since it doesn't appear he was
                        > > > cured from his mental unbalance and inappropriate behavior
                        > > > the first time.
                        > > >
                        > > > Telling chelas on such a large stage that he sometimes tells
                        > > > Joan to quit talking at home, is really arrogant and disrespectful
                        > > > of the one he should love and treasure the most--he certainly
                        > > > is displaying male chauvinism and unloving behavior. Yeah,
                        > > > Klemp talks about a unisex society but yet the male is still
                        > > > dominant! LOL!
                        > > >
                        > > > I think that Klemp inviting Joan to share the stage with him,
                        > > > singing her little song, elevated her, but he also kept her in
                        > > > a subordinate role. Yep, she'll help him keep the power, but
                        > > > he will still run the show! So, much for equal footing--male/
                        > > > female! Klemp is working hard to position Joan as a co-l.e.m.
                        > > > but yet he isn't making it equal! But it is fun to watch his game.
                        > > > I suppose he doesn't want another replay like Gail naming Twitchell's
                        > > > replacement- -Klemp would like it to look more legitimate the
                        > > > next time, in case something happens to him suddenly! : )
                        > > > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Anyway . . .
                        > > > I especially love the way Mark summed this all up in his last
                        > > > paragraph! Too funny! Klemp is the agent of change going
                        > > > into all and every public bathroom regardless of them being
                        > > > for women or men--by golly, Klemp is going in there and
                        > > > making changes . . . and his chelas are embracing this
                        > > > idea as they too want to help with the change that obviously
                        > > > can be started in such a basic and fundalmental places as
                        > > > restrooms. Hey, just remember if the opposite gender comes
                        > > > into the restroom you are using, don't be alarmed--it' s not
                        > > > any nut or pervert, it's just a nutty, possibly perverted
                        > > > eckist! So much for those special, elevated spiritual teachings! : )
                        > > >
                        > > > Mish
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • prometheus_973
                        Practical Skepticism is Based on Common Sense [David Hume]. Shouldn t ECKists take a Common Sense approach to what they read, see, and hear coming from their
                        Message 11 of 11 , Jan 2, 2008
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                          "Practical Skepticism is Based on Common Sense"
                          [David Hume]. Shouldn't ECKists take a Common
                          Sense approach to what they read, see, and hear
                          coming from their "ECK" Leaders and Mahanta?!


                          From Wikipedia:

                          Formal logic, as most people learn it, is deductive
                          rather than inductive. Some philosophers claim to
                          have created systems of inductive logic, but it is
                          controversial whether a logic of induction is even
                          possible. In contrast to deductive reasoning, conclusions
                          arrived at by inductive reasoning do not necessarily
                          have the same degree of certainty as the initial premises.

                          For example, a conclusion that all swans are white is
                          false, but may have been thought true in Europe until
                          the settlement of Australia, when Black Swans were
                          discovered. Inductive arguments are never binding
                          but they may be cogent. Inductive reasoning is deductively
                          invalid. (An argument in formal logic is valid if and only
                          if it is not possible for the premises of the argument to
                          be true whilst the conclusion is false.) In induction there
                          are always many conclusions that can reasonably be related
                          to certain premises. Inductions are open; deductions are
                          closed.

                          It is however possible to derive a true statement
                          using inductive reasoning if you know the conclusion.
                          The only way to have an efficient argument by induction
                          is for the known conclusion to be able to be true only
                          if an unstated external conclusion is true, from which
                          the initial conclusion was built and has certain criteria
                          to be met in order to be true (separate from the stated
                          conclusion).

                          By substitution of one conclusion for the other, you
                          can inductively find out what evidence you need in
                          order for your induction to be true. For example,
                          you have a window that opens only one way, but
                          not the other. Assuming that you know that the only
                          way for that to happen is that the hinges are faulty,
                          inductively you can postulate that the only way for
                          that window to be fixed would be to apply oil (whatever
                          will fix the unstated conclusion). From there on you
                          can successfully build your case.

                          However, if your unstated conclusion is false, which
                          can only be proven by deductive reasoning, then your
                          whole argument by induction collapses. Thus ultimately,
                          pure inductive reasoning does not exist.

                          The classic philosophical treatment of the problem
                          of induction, meaning the search for a justification
                          for inductive reasoning, was by the Scottish philosopher
                          David Hume. Hume highlighted the fact that our everyday
                          reasoning depends on patterns of repeated experience
                          rather than deductively valid arguments. For example,
                          we believe that bread will nourish us because it has
                          done so in the past, but this is not a guarantee that it
                          will always do so.

                          As Hume said, someone who insisted on sound
                          deductive justifications for everything would starve
                          to death.

                          Instead of approaching everything with unproductive
                          skepticism, Hume advocated a practical skepticism
                          based on common sense, where the inevitability of
                          induction is accepted.

                          Induction is sometimes framed as reasoning about
                          the future from the past, but in its broadest sense it
                          involves reaching conclusions about unobserved things
                          on the basis of what has been observed. Inferences
                          about the past from present evidence – for instance,
                          as in archaeology, count as induction. Induction could
                          also be across space rather than time, for instance as
                          in physical cosmology where conclusions about the
                          whole universe are drawn from the limited perspective
                          we are able to observe (see cosmic variance); or in
                          economics, where national economic policy is derived
                          from local economic performance.

                          Twentieth-century philosophy has approached induction
                          very differently. Rather than a choice about what predictions
                          to make about the future, induction can be seen as a choice
                          of what concepts to fit to observations or of how to graph
                          or represent a set of observed data.

                          Nelson Goodman posed a "new riddle of induction"
                          by inventing the property "grue" to which induction
                          does not apply. [end]

                          prometheus wrote:
                          >
                          > Doesn't it seem like there is a Lack of Communication
                          > between these two (Harry & Joan), as well as, a problem
                          > with bladder control (lower chakra health)! One's a 14th
                          > Initiate and the other a 9th Initiate and yet most average
                          > couples (non-Eckists) communicate better and are more
                          > capable than these two goofs!
                          >
                          > Can't HK go into the men's restroom with Joan?! Sure! And,
                          > where's that "inner (and outer) communication" to Know where
                          > Joan is? Where's the Mahanta's "intuition" and "insight" for Harry
                          > Not to know the men's room was locked because Joan was in there!
                          >
                          > Is the Mahanta Consciousness limited to KNOWING these things!
                          > It's ridiculous! Klemp is a mini-master scammer! One can see the
                          > "proof in the pudding" that ECK Initiations are Bogus! Would this
                          > comedy of errors happen to Rebazar? Would Rebazar get "punked"
                          > by the KAL? Of course Not!
                          >
                          [EDIT]
                          > Klemp is Not a real Master anyway, and Rebazar is a fictional
                          > character created by Twitchell in order to "initiate" himself!
                          > Is "imagination" proof, especially, someone else's? Why believe
                          > that Twitchell was incapable of lying about Eckankar when he
                          > lied about his birth date, Who's Who info, etc.? Use Common Sense!
                          > Klemp is also a liar, as well as, deluded because he knows he's
                          > no God-man let alone the Highest! Yet, he promotes himself
                          > as the highest authority over all!

                          > Plus, just read the stupid stories sent to The Mystic World,
                          > H.I. Letter, and RESA Star! These H.I.s are talking about
                          > really basic stuff as though it's a revelation in consciousness
                          > and a miracle due to the Mahanta interceding for them! One
                          > can read these same type of stories, if not better or greater
                          > ones and examples of faith, from other religions that Eckankar
                          > views as lesser (lower) spiritual paths! Eckists really need to
                          > get out more with non-Eckists and read more non-Eck books.
                          > And, everyone really need to take people off those pedestals...
                          > no one should be placed Higher (or lower) than Oneself!
                          >
                          > Prometheus
                          >
                          > prometheus wrote:
                          > >
                          > > In the 12/2007 Mystic World Sharon Kunin's
                          > > article is Damage Control for Klemp's 2007
                          > > EWWS "RESTROOMS ARE UNISEX" comments!
                          > >
                          > > Sharon's article begins on page 1 and is titled,
                          > > "A Year of Blessing." On page 7 Sharon states
                          > > that Klemp walked into the women's restroom
                          > > where:
                          >
                          > ***
                          > "... he (HK) encountered a very alarmed
                          > white-haired woman standing at the sink.
                          > Excusing himself, SRI HAROLD RETURNED TO
                          > THE MEN'S ROOM JUST AS JOAN EMERGED..."
                          > ***
                          >
                          > > Now how does this... Oh! er excuse me madame!
                          > > "Change" her consciousness? What happened to
                          > > "Restrooms Are Unisex!"
                          > >
                          > > Or, did HK follow the Law of Silence and whispered
                          > > or whimpered to himself, under his breath, Restrooms
                          > > Should Be (are) Unisex Damnit! I Have Spoken!!!
                          > > Maybe Klemp only shared his thoughts of what he
                          > > wanted to say to that "Alarmed" white-haired woman?
                          > > Maybe it was all made-up and he lied that he had said
                          > > anything.
                          > >
                          > > Maybe this is what Sharon is really pointing out. Klemp
                          > > lied to ECKists at the 2007 EWWS and never told that
                          > > woman that Restrooms Are Unisex!
                          > >
                          > > I guess that the Holocaust didn't happen either!
                          > >
                          > > Or maybe, the Klemp's, the ESC and RESA Police
                          > > are trying to re-write ECKANKAR History with this
                          > > Damage Control! Almost everyone was embarrassed
                          > > by Klemp's stupid comments and this generated
                          > > a reaction of mass disapproval by the more sane ECKists!
                          > >
                          > > Although HK is out-of-control the EK Board can't
                          > > do anything about it like they did with Gross! They
                          > > allowed Klemp to restructure things giving himself
                          > > sole authority. Too bad so sad! But what goes around
                          > > comes around... that's karma isn't it?! LOL!
                          > >
                          > > I wonder what ECKists are thinking about this
                          > > rewrite by Sharon Kunin which was approved
                          > > of by both Joan and Harold? Do they think that
                          > > this will make things better or that HK's nutty
                          > > comments will all go away? I'll bet the tape of
                          > > that talk gets edited along with the written version
                          > > of it in the next Mahanta Transcripts!
                          > >
                          > > If there wasn't anything to hide (change)...
                          > > Why Are They Doing This?!
                          > >
                          > > Let's just "change" Truth into Fiction... this seems
                          > > to be the ECKANKAR way of viewing life! Or, maybe
                          > > ECKists like Mark just "imagined" they saw and heard
                          > > the Mahanta when it was actually the KAL!
                          > >
                          > > Prometheus
                          > > p.s. HK's comments to Joan to "hush-up" weren't
                          > > appreciated either by ECKists!
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > On HuChat, Mark Alexander wrote:
                          > >
                          > > "I always listen to Harold's talk as if they were Living
                          > > Shariyat dreams... Sometimes I think people forget that
                          > > Harold is not just telling stories to get a chuckle, that
                          > > there is a literal Mahanta... WE are the white-haired lady
                          > > in the women's restroom that Harold talked about...
                          > >
                          > > Even true stories are parables, especially when they involve
                          > > Harold and Joan.
                          > >
                          > > In the restroom story (abbreviated version), Harold and
                          > > Joan were shopping. Joan went to the restroom, found a
                          > > white-haired lady waiting for the Women's room. The Men's
                          > > room was not occupied, so Joan asked the lady why she
                          > > didn't use it. The women said that it was for men only.
                          > >
                          > > Harold said that he and Joan have a policy of using
                          > > 'any port in the storm.' So Joan went into the Men's room.
                          > > Meanwhile, Harold comes along looking for a restroom,
                          > > finds the Men's room locked, so he tries the Women's room.
                          > > It's unlocked, he enters, and of course the white-haired lady
                          > > is there. She looks at him shocked. 'But this is the Women's room!'
                          > > she says.
                          > >
                          > > HAROLD SAYS AS FAR AS HE'S CONCERNED THE RESTROOMS
                          > > ARE UNISEX. HE MUSED THAT HE WONDERED AT HOW THE
                          > > ECK USED HIM TO CHANGE THE STATE OF CONSCIOUSNESS
                          > > OF THE WHITE-HAIRED WOMAN.
                          > >
                          > > This story puts a cap on a particularly nice Living Word
                          > > aspect of this talk. I've seen on many occasions how Harold
                          > > will say something that will tweak the human consciousness
                          > > (political or social or eck-related) , then in the same talk there
                          > > would be a story that addresses what he tweaks. This is how the
                          > > Living Word works.
                          > >
                          > > Earlier in his talk when Joan was singing, she got a little
                          > > lost in singing the complete song and so it went on longer
                          > > than it should have. Harold made a comment about her
                          > > going on like that, and how sometimes at home he would
                          > > have to say something if she talks too long. It was a very male/
                          > > female comment...
                          > >
                          > > So here we have Harold tweaking us on the male/female
                          > > thing and then later tells us a story that tries to remind us
                          > > not to get stuck in male/ female categories. That they are fine,
                          > > but we should not be like the white-haired lady, stuck in one
                          > > or the other. We should be thinking Unisex, SOUL, beyond
                          > > the categories. Change is Change (the title of the talk)... the
                          > > Mahanta. He is the agent of change sent by the ECK into our
                          > > bathroom to tweak us out of our stuck, white-haired old lady
                          > > views. My opinion. Your mileage may vary. Hu Mark_"
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > misha wrote:
                          > >
                          > > For those of you wondering what great pearls of wisdom
                          > > came out of Klemp's recent talk at the eckankar world wide
                          > > seminar, Mark Alexander has shared some of his impressions
                          > > of Klemp's speak, calling it "The Living Word." BTW, I find
                          > > Mark's babbling to be more of his own discomfort in what
                          > > Klemp said--that he, too, must have been troubled by Klemp's
                          > > message just as well as the eckists who came up to him afterwards
                          > > questioning some of Klemp's remarks.
                          > > > >
                          > > here's few of my thoughts on what he shared.
                          > > > >
                          > >
                          > > 1. The bathroom story seems recycled as I read something
                          > > similar in one of Klemp's transcripts years ago . . . unless
                          > > Klemp still has a thing about bathrooms. It's odd he is directing
                          > > chelas to do some vahana work in public restrooms now!
                          > >
                          > > Personally the whole bathroom talk, Unisex comments,
                          > > raising a white haired lady's consciousness, etc. is really
                          > > quite weird--but what can one expect from a guy who
                          > > disrobed in an airport. Klemp was out of balance then, and
                          > > he still is out of balance!
                          > > > >
                          > >
                          > > 2. It seems too that he doesn't like women, especially white
                          > > haired ones! I have to wonder if he loved his mother--or he
                          > > wouldn't so easily put down an older woman who reacted naturally
                          > > "shocked" when he entered a women's restroom. Too bad security
                          > > wasn't called on Klemp for doing this--maybe, he needs another
                          > > time out in a mental institution since it doesn't appear he was
                          > > cured from his mental unbalance and inappropriate behavior
                          > > the first time.
                          > >
                          > > Telling chelas on such a large stage that he sometimes tells
                          > > Joan to quit talking at home, is really arrogant and disrespectful
                          > > of the one he should love and treasure the most--he certainly
                          > > is displaying male chauvinism and unloving behavior. Yeah,
                          > > Klemp talks about a unisex society but yet the male is still
                          > > dominant! LOL!
                          > >
                          > > I think that Klemp inviting Joan to share the stage with him,
                          > > singing her little song, elevated her, but he also kept her in
                          > > a subordinate role. Yep, she'll help him keep the power, but
                          > > he will still run the show! So, much for equal footing--male/
                          > > female! Klemp is working hard to position Joan as a co-l.e.m.
                          > > but yet he isn't making it equal! But it is fun to watch his game.
                          > > I suppose he doesn't want another replay like Gail naming Twitchell's
                          > > replacement- -Klemp would like it to look more legitimate the
                          > > next time, in case something happens to him suddenly! : )
                          > > > >
                          > >
                          > > Anyway . . .
                          > > I especially love the way Mark summed this all up in his last
                          > > paragraph! Too funny! Klemp is the agent of change going
                          > > into all and every public bathroom regardless of them being
                          > > for women or men--by golly, Klemp is going in there and
                          > > making changes . . . and his chelas are embracing this
                          > > idea as they too want to help with the change that obviously
                          > > can be started in such a basic and fundalmental places as
                          > > restrooms. Hey, just remember if the opposite gender comes
                          > > into the restroom you are using, don't be alarmed--it' s not
                          > > any nut or pervert, it's just a nutty, possibly perverted
                          > > eckist! So much for those special, elevated spiritual teachings! : )
                          > >
                          > > Mish
                          > >
                          >
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