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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] KLEMP Rewrites & Distorts History in TWEM!

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  • etznab@aol.com
    I m not sure if this is the earliest source about Rebazar Tarzs and Columbus, but it isn t particular about what kind of guide- ance. It only says Christopher
    Message 1 of 10 , Oct 11, 2007
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         I'm not sure if this is the earliest source about Rebazar Tarzs
      and Columbus, but it isn't particular about what kind of guide-
      ance. It only says "Christopher Columbus' inner guidance".

      "Rebazar Tarzs was born in the year of 1461, in the mountain
      village of Sarana in northern Tibet. He developed into mastership
      under the spiritual guidance of Yaubl Sacabi. It was he who was  
      responsible for Christopher Columbus' inner guidance. He stayed
      on earth for seventy-five years [until 1536?] teaching ECK, then
      he retired in the same body to the mountainous vastness of the
      Himalayas. He has spiritually developed several ECK Masters,
      and is responsible for the passing of the Rod of ECK power from
      one master to his successor. He also developed spiritually
      Peddar Zaskq." [my brackets]

      [Based on: The Spiritual Notebook, by Paul Twitchell, 10th
      printing 1983, pp. 193-194]  

         Here is another source that mentions it was Fubbi Quantz
      that "encouraged his voyage" Both Eckankar dictionaries, by
      Paul [1973 post-mortem] & Harold [1998] appear to agree.

      "Fubbi Quantz. FOO-bee KWAHNTS The Mahanta, the Living
      ECK Master during the time of Buddha, about 500 B.C. He com-
      pleted his mission, then immortalized his body, and is now the  
      guardian of the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad at the Katsupari Monastery
      in northern Tibet. A teacher of Firdusi, the Persian poet, he was
      also the spiritual guide for Columbus and encouraged his voyage
      to the Americas in order to revitalize the depleted nutrition of the
      Europeans."

      [Based on: A Cosmic Sea of Words: The ECKANKAR Lexicon,
      By Harold Klemp]

         In Dialogues, Chap. five, Doug Marman writes:

      ".... Paul described the spiritual line of ECK Masters, not for
      its historical accuracy based upon historical records, but to
      show that as the Sufis say there is always one who is the
      spiritual Pole of the world, and this light has passed from
      continent to continent, from race to race, from culture to
      culture, down through time."

         I am not certain how to interpret that sentence in The
      Spiritual Notebook regarding Rebazar Tarzs: "He stayed
      on earth for seventy-five years teaching ECK, then he
      retired in the same body to the mountainous vastness
      of the Himalayas." (Doesn't that imply still on Earth? In
      a physical [living I suppose] body?)

         According to "current" record it was 1951 when Paul
      Twitchell met Rebazar Tarzs:

      "He said he had come across the teachings through Sudar
      Singh in a general way as early as 1935, then studied them
      in depth with Rebazar Tarzs starting in 1951."

      [Based on: Article (Getting the ECK Message Out) by Harold
      Klemp - see link]

      http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html#training  

         However, what I find most "telling" is where Paul Twitchell
      "heard" about Rebazar Tarzs:

      "[....] Sudar Singh often spoke of Rebazar Tarzs, a Tibetan
      saint, whom he said was reputed to be over five hundred years
      old, and was at the time living in the foothills between Darjeeling
      and Gangtock somewhere, but presently has a small abode in
      the Hindu Kush mountains on the Afghanistan-Kashmir frontier,
      near Tibet. [....]"
       
      [Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings Volume 1, Paul
      Twitchell (Copyright 1975 by Gail T. Gross), p. 32]

         Here is another paragraph with reference to what
      Sudar Singh (Or, was that Brad Steiger?) "had said":

      "This year in India was not spent totally in an attitude of holy
      learning. Paul had reached his sixteenth birthday, and he
      decided that he needed a furlough from the ashram. He traveled
      to Bombay, put up in a hotel, and then set out in search of a
      holy man who Sudar Singh had said was extremely wise in
      the ways of God."  

      [Based on: IN MY SOUL I AM FREE (ISBN 0-914766-11-2),
      by Brad Steiger (Copyright 1968?), p. 53]

      (Yes, yes, I know about the uncertainty of the 1935 meeting
      with Sudar Singh as explained here on E.S.A. a dozen times.
      I'm only quoting, and are not "stating" facts.)

         In another example the words "said to be" are used with
      regard to Rebazar Tarzs:

      " 'I suppose this protest period grew out of the fact that, shortly
      after the war, I had returned to see Sudar Singh in Allahabad.
      It was while renewing my physical bonds with Sudar Singh that
      I met the ancient Tibetan master, Rebazar Tarzs, who is said to
      be several hundred years old. It was under this holy man that I
      truly began to perfect my study of Eckankar and to master the  
      techniques of soul travel, the ancient path to God-consciousness.' "

      [Based on: IN MY SOUL I AM FREE (ISBN 0-914766-11-2), by
      Brad Steiger (Copyright 1968?), pp. 59-60]  

         What year was this? after the war when Paul Twitchell was
      renewing his bonds with Sudar Singh that he met Rebazar
      Tarzs? 1951?

         In another place Sudar Singh appears to be already dead
      before Paul goes searching for Rebazar Tarzs:

      "[....] My sole purpose was to find the elusive Tibetan lama,
      known as Rebazar Tarzs, of whom I had heard much from the
      late Sudar Singh at Allahabad. [....] It was a hot summer after-
      noon in 1951. [....]"

      [Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings Volume 1, Paul
      Twitchell (Copyright 1975 by Gail T. Gross), p. 32]

      *********

         With regard to the year ("about") 1935 when Paul first
      ("allegedly") met Sudar Singh:

      "Since the advent of ECKANKAR into the modern world,
      starting about 1935, the crises in human affairs have be-
      come more intense and now seem at the bursting point.
      It appears that this ancient teaching which has made its
      way back into the attention of the world, after lying
      dormant for centuries, is here for a purpose. That is to
      bring a stronger spiritual strength to all those who
      become  its followers. [....] The Ancient One, the agent
      of God,  whom we call the Messiah, or the Godman,
      appears in the world with every new age. Now he has
      appeared with the age-old teachings of ECK, which will
      give the human race a spiritual boost, taking many over
      the crisis into the realm of God. The way will be perfectly
      clear now that many can see where the path of God is
      leading them."

      [Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings Volume 1,
      Paul Twitchell - Copyright 1975 by Gail T. Gross, p. 123]

      (In L.T.G. Vol. II - 4th printing 1986 - on page 156, second
      paragraph, Paul Twitchell writes to Gail - in a letter dated
      July 12, 1963 - about a great spiritual teacher that comes
      to this earth every thousand years. The last sentence in
      that paragraph (illustrated in italics the whole letter) reads:
      "I don't know who is the present true master here now,
      nor do I know who was the past." This was in July, 1963!)

         Given that the name Sudar Sing has been used to replace
      both Swami Premananda and Kirpal Singh in some instances,
      perhaps it would be worthwile to learn if they too also knew,
      or had heard, about a wise master several hundred years old?

         ".... Paul described the spiritual line of ECK Masters, not
      for its historical accuracy based upon historical records, but
      to show that as the Sufis say there is always one who is the
      spiritual Pole of the world, and this light has passed from
      continent to continent, from race to race, from culture to
      culture, down through time."

         When considering the spiritual line of Eck Masters,
      I too believe something has passed "... from continent
      to continent, from race to race, from culture to culture,
      down through time."

         Lots and lots of stories, among other things. Though
      not necessarily the "whole" truth. Especially since people
      are - even today - having to throw "light" on the picture
      still :)

      Etznab



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    • etznab@aol.com
      It was not for no reason I mentioned the letter to Gail dated July 12th, 1963. When was it that Kirpal Singh came to America for the second time? Was it 1963?
      Message 2 of 10 , Oct 11, 2007
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           It was not for no reason I mentioned the letter to
        Gail dated July 12th, 1963.

           When was it that Kirpal Singh came to America
        for the second time? Was it 1963? And was that
        also the year when Paul took Gail to meet him, or
        to get initiated? Was it 1963 when Paul Twitchell
        sent his Tiger's Fang manuscript to Kirpal Singh &
        when Paul first mentioned (wrote publicly) about
        Eckankar?

        "[....] One of the most interesting things that I find about
        this is the timing of when The Far Country was written.  
        According to Paul, he wrote the book shortly after meeting
        Gail, when he moved down to San Francisco, which would
        have been in 1963-1964. This is the same year Paul gave
        his copy of The Tiger's Fang to Kirpal Singh, and introduced
        Gail to Kirpal, which resulted in Gail being initiated by Kirpal.  
        [....]"

        [http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Six.htm]

        "David [David Lane] begins by referring to an interview
        by Jack Jarvis, on July 9, 1963, called 'Paul Twitchell,
        Man of Parts,' which appears to be the first time that
        Paul mentions the name ECKANKAR."

        [Based on: Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 3]

        *********

           It might be interesting to know the exact dates for all of
        these events.

           It has also been pointed out that the names Sudar Singh
        and Rebazar Tarzs didn't start really showing up until 1964.
        However, in the very first letter to Gail appears the name of
        Rebazar Tarzs. This was in December, 1962!

           In spite of this I saw another version of that paragraph that
        did not contain the name Rebazar Tarzs. This is something I
        thought was worth looking at and I asked about the source of
        that version of the text.

           I believe it was illustrated by Michael Turner recently on
        A.R.E. I believe he said it appeared in a publication years
        ago.

           Here is the A.R.E. post from September 30th entitled:
        Letter to Gail Quote:

        In the recent post by Michael Turner there is
        a quote that looks like the 4th paragraph from
        the first Letter to Gail. It reads:

           This is why I propose to say that my knowledge
        of this is little. I am neither a saint nor holy man,
        but I can only tell you what little I have experienced
        through Kirpal Singh.To him, my personal debt is
        great!

        *********
           Did this come from David Lane's book? From
        some Sonic Spectrum issue from Sept. 1996?
        Or what? I haven't seen that illustration before
        today. Not that I remember.

           Does anybody know about the history for that
        illustration? I haven't read David's book, and I'm
        not clear on whether it came from there or not.

        (End post) *********

           Interestingly, this is the one and only post on
        that thread to date.

           What an interesting year, 1963.

        Etznab











          




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      • Elizabeth
        Hmmm, were you born in 1963 Etznab? LOL Look I m not going to get too detractor ish on this.... But I used to marvel at the fact (while still an eckists)
        Message 3 of 10 , Oct 12, 2007
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          Hmmm,  were you born in 1963 Etznab?  LOL
           
          Look I'm not going to get too detractor ish on this....  But I used to marvel at the fact (while still an eckists)  that eckankar came out to the public in 1965, which was also the year I had my first OBE during surgery at 5 years of age....  An old guy came to me and took me out of my body to places I don't recall.  All I do remember is coming back into my body and not liking that idea too well.   Later our family joined eckankar, and everyone in our satsang class insisted I experienced Fubbi and what an amazing thing to have a Master come to me the very year Paul brought the teachings to the Western world. 
           
          Okay, so I could tie in eckankar and their events being significant in my life, or in past history....  Eckankar uses this as a grand marketing tool for new and current lower initiates to validate their path, and keeping them paying the membership! 
           
          Have a great weekend everyone,
          Liz
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           (End post) *********

             Interestingly, this is the one and only post on
          that thread to date.

             What an interesting year, 1963.

          Etznab 











            



        • mishmisha9
          Hi, Etznab! I m not sure what it is you are trying to convey here with all these quotes from Twitchell, Klemp, Brad Steiger and Doug Marman regarding eck
          Message 4 of 10 , Oct 12, 2007
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            Hi, Etznab!

            I'm not sure what it is you are trying to convey here with
            all these quotes from Twitchell, Klemp, Brad Steiger and Doug
            Marman regarding eck master lineage and history. For myself,
            these sources and quotes have no basis in Truth as they are all
            interwoven into the fabrication of the big lie that Twitchell
            put forth for his followers and that Klemp has chosen to
            perpetuate by putting his own spin on the lies and distortions.

            Nothing in the eck literature or that Brad Steiger or Doug
            Marman has written about the eck masters substantiates
            that any of the eck masters ever existed or exist. It is
            really too bad that these distortions even include the
            magical thinking that historical figures like Columbus
            were influenced by such mythical characters. It is rather
            ridiculous the whole thing, but for the fact that here in
            this country there seems to be a great dumbing down of
            Americans. This truly concerns me.

            Etznab wrote:
            When considering the spiritual line of Eck Masters,
            I too believe something has passed "... from continent
            to continent, from race to race, from culture to culture,
            down through time."

            Lots and lots of stories, among other things. Though
            not necessarily the "whole" truth. Especially since people
            are - even today - having to throw "light" on the picture
            still :) (end of Etznab's quote)

            The sources and stories in your post are all one and the
            same basically--nothing new to shed true "light", and
            nothing quoted even comes close to the "whole" truth--
            if anything, nothing could be further from the truth.
            This is really sad, all the lies, that continue. Klemp had
            a choice to bring the truth out but he chose to disregard
            it, and therefore what dim spiritual light Klemp had in the
            beginning went out years ago.

            Mish

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
            etznab@... wrote:
            >
            >
            > I'm not sure if this is the earliest source about Rebazar Tarzs
            > and Columbus, but it isn't particular about what kind of guide-
            > ance. It only says "Christopher Columbus' inner guidance".
            >
            > "Rebazar Tarzs was born in the year of 1461, in the mountain
            > village of Sarana in northern Tibet. He developed into mastership
            > under the spiritual guidance of Yaubl Sacabi. It was he who was
            > responsible for Christopher Columbus' inner guidance. He stayed
            > on earth for seventy-five years [until 1536?] teaching ECK, then
            > he retired in the same body to the mountainous vastness of the
            > Himalayas. He has spiritually developed several ECK Masters,
            > and is responsible for the passing of the Rod of ECK power from
            > one master to his successor. He also developed spiritually
            > Peddar Zaskq." [my brackets]
            >
            > [Based on: The Spiritual Notebook, by Paul Twitchell, 10th
            > printing 1983, pp. 193-194]  
            >
            > Here is another source that mentions it was Fubbi Quantz
            > that "encouraged his voyage" Both Eckankar dictionaries, by
            > Paul [1973 post-mortem] & Harold [1998] appear to agree.
            >
            > "Fubbi Quantz. FOO-bee KWAHNTS The Mahanta, the Living
            > ECK Master during the time of Buddha, about 500 B.C. He com-
            > pleted his mission, then immortalized his body, and is now the
            > guardian of the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad at the Katsupari Monastery
            > in northern Tibet. A teacher of Firdusi, the Persian poet, he was
            > also the spiritual guide for Columbus and encouraged his voyage
            > to the Americas in order to revitalize the depleted nutrition of the
            > Europeans."
            >
            > [Based on: A Cosmic Sea of Words: The ECKANKAR Lexicon,
            > By Harold Klemp]
            >
            > In Dialogues, Chap. five, Doug Marman writes:
            >
            > ".... Paul described the spiritual line of ECK Masters, not for
            > its historical accuracy based upon historical records, but to
            > show that as the Sufis say there is always one who is the
            > spiritual Pole of the world, and this light has passed from
            > continent to continent, from race to race, from culture to
            > culture, down through time."
            >
            > I am not certain how to interpret that sentence in The
            > Spiritual Notebook regarding Rebazar Tarzs: "He stayed
            > on earth for seventy-five years teaching ECK, then he
            > retired in the same body to the mountainous vastness
            > of the Himalayas." (Doesn't that imply still on Earth? In
            > a physical [living I suppose] body?)
            >
            > According to "current" record it was 1951 when Paul
            > Twitchell met Rebazar Tarzs:
            >
            > "He said he had come across the teachings through Sudar
            > Singh in a general way as early as 1935, then studied them
            > in depth with Rebazar Tarzs starting in 1951."
            >
            > [Based on: Article (Getting the ECK Message Out) by Harold
            > Klemp - see link]
            >
            > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html#training
            >
            > However, what I find most "telling" is where Paul Twitchell
            > "heard" about Rebazar Tarzs:
            >
            > "[....] Sudar Singh often spoke of Rebazar Tarzs, a Tibetan
            > saint, whom he said was reputed to be over five hundred years
            > old, and was at the time living in the foothills between Darjeeling
            > and Gangtock somewhere, but presently has a small abode in
            > the Hindu Kush mountains on the Afghanistan-Kashmir frontier,
            > near Tibet. [....]"
            >
            > [Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings Volume 1, Paul
            > Twitchell (Copyright 1975 by Gail T. Gross), p. 32]
            >
            > Here is another paragraph with reference to what
            > Sudar Singh (Or, was that Brad Steiger?) "had said":
            >
            > "This year in India was not spent totally in an attitude of holy
            > learning. Paul had reached his sixteenth birthday, and he
            > decided that he needed a furlough from the ashram. He traveled
            > to Bombay, put up in a hotel, and then set out in search of a
            > holy man who Sudar Singh had said was extremely wise in
            > the ways of God."
            >
            > [Based on: IN MY SOUL I AM FREE (ISBN 0-914766-11-2),
            > by Brad Steiger (Copyright 1968?), p. 53]
            >
            > (Yes, yes, I know about the uncertainty of the 1935 meeting
            > with Sudar Singh as explained here on E.S.A. a dozen times.
            > I'm only quoting, and are not "stating" facts.)
            >
            > In another example the words "said to be" are used with
            > regard to Rebazar Tarzs:
            >
            > " 'I suppose this protest period grew out of the fact that, shortly
            > after the war, I had returned to see Sudar Singh in Allahabad.
            > It was while renewing my physical bonds with Sudar Singh that
            > I met the ancient Tibetan master, Rebazar Tarzs, who is said to
            > be several hundred years old. It was under this holy man that I
            > truly began to perfect my study of Eckankar and to master the
            > techniques of soul travel, the ancient path to God-consciousness.' "
            >
            > [Based on: IN MY SOUL I AM FREE (ISBN 0-914766-11-2), by
            > Brad Steiger (Copyright 1968?), pp. 59-60]
            >
            > What year was this? after the war when Paul Twitchell was
            > renewing his bonds with Sudar Singh that he met Rebazar
            > Tarzs? 1951?
            >
            > In another place Sudar Singh appears to be already dead
            > before Paul goes searching for Rebazar Tarzs:
            >
            > "[....] My sole purpose was to find the elusive Tibetan lama,
            > known as Rebazar Tarzs, of whom I had heard much from the
            > late Sudar Singh at Allahabad. [....] It was a hot summer after-
            > noon in 1951. [....]"
            >
            > [Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings Volume 1, Paul
            > Twitchell (Copyright 1975 by Gail T. Gross), p. 32]
            >
            > *********
            >
            > With regard to the year ("about") 1935 when Paul first
            > ("allegedly") met Sudar Singh:
            >
            > "Since the advent of ECKANKAR into the modern world,
            > starting about 1935, the crises in human affairs have be-
            > come more intense and now seem at the bursting point.
            > It appears that this ancient teaching which has made its
            > way back into the attention of the world, after lying
            > dormant for centuries, is here for a purpose. That is to
            > bring a stronger spiritual strength to all those who
            > become  its followers. [....] The Ancient One, the agent
            > of God, whom we call the Messiah, or the Godman,
            > appears in the world with every new age. Now he has
            > appeared with the age-old teachings of ECK, which will
            > give the human race a spiritual boost, taking many over
            > the crisis into the realm of God. The way will be perfectly
            > clear now that many can see where the path of God is
            > leading them."
            >
            > [Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings Volume 1,
            > Paul Twitchell - Copyright 1975 by Gail T. Gross, p. 123]
            >
            > (In L.T.G. Vol. II - 4th printing 1986 - on page 156, second
            > paragraph, Paul Twitchell writes to Gail - in a letter dated
            > July 12, 1963 - about a great spiritual teacher that comes
            > to this earth every thousand years. The last sentence in
            > that paragraph (illustrated in italics the whole letter) reads:
            > "I don't know who is the present true master here now,
            > nor do I know who was the past." This was in July, 1963!)
            >
            > Given that the name Sudar Sing has been used to replace
            > both Swami Premananda and Kirpal Singh in some instances,
            > perhaps it would be worthwile to learn if they too also knew,
            > or had heard, about a wise master several hundred years old?
            >
            > ".... Paul described the spiritual line of ECK Masters, not
            > for its historical accuracy based upon historical records, but
            > to show that as the Sufis say there is always one who is the
            > spiritual Pole of the world, and this light has passed from
            > continent to continent, from race to race, from culture to
            > culture, down through time."
            >
            > When considering the spiritual line of Eck Masters,
            > I too believe something has passed "... from continent
            > to continent, from race to race, from culture to culture,
            > down through time."
            >
            > Lots and lots of stories, among other things. Though
            > not necessarily the "whole" truth. Especially since people
            > are - even today - having to throw "light" on the picture
            > still :)
            >
            > Etznab
            >
            >
            >
            > **************************************
            > See what's new at http://www.aol.com
            >
          • etznab@aol.com
            Mish, Forgive me for rambling. I was basically trying to sort legend, from fact, from myth. I know that David, Doug and others have spent way more time doing
            Message 5 of 10 , Oct 12, 2007
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              Mish,

                 Forgive me for rambling. I was basically trying to sort
              legend, from fact, from myth. I know that David, Doug and
              others have spent way more time doing research, but what
              I haven't seen much of in their illustrations is a timeline
              context where all of the dates and the corresponding events
              are spelled out more or less in chronological order. This is
              probably the only thing unique about the way I personaly
              choose to evaluate history. Besides that, the information I
              use is basically the same as what the others have.

                 It's not an easy task, I'll say that. Thanks for the findings
              and comments from David Lane, BTW. I agree about much
              of what people have to look at are not "their" writings. They
              are not the ones who wrote it in the first place, however, the
              writings are mostly what they have to work with.

                 In my recent posts I was trying to trace back to the begin-
              ing and looking for any connection between what Paul gave
              out as history or legend, with what other paths he knew
              about were familiar with.

                 I traced back to 1963 because that is the year when the
              word Eckankar appeared in public and the year when I
              suspect the relationship between Paul Twitchell and Kirpal
              Singh "started" to change. There was a reason I focussed
              on that year - not because I was born near the time when
              those things were happening ( : ) - but because it wasn't
              long afterward (1963) when the names Rebazar Tarzs and
              Sudar Singh started to appear. It has to do with tracing of
              things back to the beginning.

                 Paul Twitchell seemed to indicate he first heard about
              Rebazar Tarzs from Sudar Singh. So I tried to trace back
              to when they first met - according to the writings. Let me
              put it another way: I tried to trace the story about when
              they (Paul Twitchell & Sudar Singh) first met. Their are a
              number of different dates and versions recorded.

                 1935 appeared to be significant because it was a year
              when Paul & Sudar met and because of the reference to
              Eckankar - the teachings - reappearing then. I gave the
              quote in an earlier post.

                 It was confusing, I know, because I was trying to trace
              the beginnings of several different things at once. Initially
              though, it was a search for legends that inspired me to
              start writing those posts in the beginning. I was curious
              whether Kirpal Singh and his group shared any legends
              similar to what are found in Eckankar. The Christopher
              Columbus stuff and others.

                 Frankly, the trail seems to begin and end with Sudar
              Singh, as far as the story about Rebazar Tarzs goes.
              The beginning of it, that is (not about Columbus). Here
              is the thing though, it was Sudar Singh that replaced
              the name Kirpal Singh in a lot of the writings that I have
              looked at. And it was Rebazar Tarzs that appeared to
              replace Kirpal Singh in the first letter to Gail in December
              1962 and also in The Tiger's Fang (manuscript of which
              was sent to Kirpal Singh around 1963). So what I saw
              was that the name Kirpal Singh kept popping up in the
              begining (according to what I saw, and what others
              said they saw). In other words, before Sudar Singh
              and Rebazar Tarzs there was Kirpal Singh. That is,
              if you trace the published material back to the beginning
              when Eckankar was first mentioned publicly (1963),
              it was Kirpal Singh that Paul was mentioning, not
              Sudar Singh or Rebazar Tarzs. They appear to come
              mostly afterwards (far as the published record of events).

                 What did Kirpal Singh know? That was my initial
              question. Did Kirpal share any stories with Paul?
              I don't know what all he picked up from the Hindu
              teachings, whether Paul only included teachings
              or some of the history, legend and myths too.

                 I'm probably gonna go and read the Tiger's Fang
              next (it's been a long time) because it talks about
              planes, and the gods of different planes, which I be-
              lieve is a part of the teachings in other Hindu paths.
              Afterall, Paul Twitchell was sending his Tiger's Fang
              manuscript to Kirpal Singh - and I doubt that Paul
              would have done such a thing if ithese were such
              foreign ideas to Kirpal Singh. Also, I want to look
              at if there is a place in the beginning of that book
              where the physical characteristics of Rebazar
              Tarzs are described. If they are and they do not
              match the features of Kirpal Singh then I have to
              go and determine if these amount to additions, or
              if they were in the original manuscript.

                 Basically, I'm trying to follow the information
              back in time to when it started. It's not easy
              and it takes a lot of time and research because
              all I have is the published materials - most of
              which are later editions - and the originals have
              changed over time. All I'm looking at is history
              and are not trying to negate any of the really
              beneficial spiritual/universal principles shared,
              no matter who said it. But the actual history
              is important, IMO, for other reasons and I
              imagine most people would have to agree.
              (To some extent, at least, it does matter to
              sort legend, from myth, from fact as far as
              religions go. It's not all the same - or else
              there wouldn't be three different words and
              ideas describing them, IMO.)

                 It's hard to trace back to the beginning when
              one doesn't have the earlier books and manu-
              scripts. That is part of the reason why it's taking
              me so long and why I become disgruntled at times
              too. However, each time I find an original it adds
              something new to the history. IMO.

                 Thanks for all of your help :)

              Etznab

                



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            • empath1944
              Dear Etz: There is a picture of Sri Kirpal Sing in Julian Johnson s _Path of the Masters. I love to look those eyes. He IS like Rebezar s descriptions. I
              Message 6 of 10 , Oct 13, 2007
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                Dear Etz:
                There is a picture of Sri Kirpal Sing in Julian Johnson's _Path of
                the Masters. I love to look those eyes. He IS like Rebezar's
                descriptions. I found myself sitting at a table with the artist who
                painted her impressions of the ECK masters. That feeling for me was
                wavy, floaty, delicate, gentle and very interesting I happened there
                as I now think and picture on it. She seemed to feel guilty it took
                her so long. My God.
                EM

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
                >
                > Mish,
                >
                > Forgive me for rambling. I was basically trying to sort
                > legend, from fact, from myth. I know that David, Doug and
                > others have spent way more time doing research, but what
                > I haven't seen much of in their illustrations is a timeline
                > context where all of the dates and the corresponding events
                > are spelled out more or less in chronological order. This is
                > probably the only thing unique about the way I personaly
                > choose to evaluate history. Besides that, the information I
                > use is basically the same as what the others have.
                >
                > It's not an easy task, I'll say that. Thanks for the findings
                > and comments from David Lane, BTW. I agree about much
                > of what people have to look at are not "their" writings. They
                > are not the ones who wrote it in the first place, however, the
                > writings are mostly what they have to work with.
                >
                > In my recent posts I was trying to trace back to the begin-
                > ing and looking for any connection between what Paul gave
                > out as history or legend, with what other paths he knew
                > about were familiar with.
                >
                > I traced back to 1963 because that is the year when the
                > word Eckankar appeared in public and the year when I
                > suspect the relationship between Paul Twitchell and Kirpal
                > Singh "started" to change. There was a reason I focussed
                > on that year - not because I was born near the time when
                > those things were happening ( : ) - but because it wasn't
                > long afterward (1963) when the names Rebazar Tarzs and
                > Sudar Singh started to appear. It has to do with tracing of
                > things back to the beginning.
                >
                > Paul Twitchell seemed to indicate he first heard about
                > Rebazar Tarzs from Sudar Singh. So I tried to trace back
                > to when they first met - according to the writings. Let me
                > put it another way: I tried to trace the story about when
                > they (Paul Twitchell & Sudar Singh) first met. Their are a
                > number of different dates and versions recorded.
                >
                > 1935 appeared to be significant because it was a year
                > when Paul & Sudar met and because of the reference to
                > Eckankar - the teachings - reappearing then. I gave the
                > quote in an earlier post.
                >
                > It was confusing, I know, because I was trying to trace
                > the beginnings of several different things at once. Initially
                > though, it was a search for legends that inspired me to
                > start writing those posts in the beginning. I was curious
                > whether Kirpal Singh and his group shared any legends
                > similar to what are found in Eckankar. The Christopher
                > Columbus stuff and others.
                >
                > Frankly, the trail seems to begin and end with Sudar
                > Singh, as far as the story about Rebazar Tarzs goes.
                > The beginning of it, that is (not about Columbus). Here
                > is the thing though, it was Sudar Singh that replaced
                > the name Kirpal Singh in a lot of the writings that I have
                > looked at. And it was Rebazar Tarzs that appeared to
                > replace Kirpal Singh in the first letter to Gail in December
                > 1962 and also in The Tiger's Fang (manuscript of which
                > was sent to Kirpal Singh around 1963). So what I saw
                > was that the name Kirpal Singh kept popping up in the
                > begining (according to what I saw, and what others
                > said they saw). In other words, before Sudar Singh
                > and Rebazar Tarzs there was Kirpal Singh. That is,
                > if you trace the published material back to the beginning
                > when Eckankar was first mentioned publicly (1963),
                > it was Kirpal Singh that Paul was mentioning, not
                > Sudar Singh or Rebazar Tarzs. They appear to come
                > mostly afterwards (far as the published record of events).
                >
                > What did Kirpal Singh know? That was my initial
                > question. Did Kirpal share any stories with Paul?
                > I don't know what all he picked up from the Hindu
                > teachings, whether Paul only included teachings
                > or some of the history, legend and myths too.
                >
                > I'm probably gonna go and read the Tiger's Fang
                > next (it's been a long time) because it talks about
                > planes, and the gods of different planes, which I be-
                > lieve is a part of the teachings in other Hindu paths.
                > Afterall, Paul Twitchell was sending his Tiger's Fang
                > manuscript to Kirpal Singh - and I doubt that Paul
                > would have done such a thing if ithese were such
                > foreign ideas to Kirpal Singh. Also, I want to look
                > at if there is a place in the beginning of that book
                > where the physical characteristics of Rebazar
                > Tarzs are described. If they are and they do not
                > match the features of Kirpal Singh then I have to
                > go and determine if these amount to additions, or
                > if they were in the original manuscript.
                >
                > Basically, I'm trying to follow the information
                > back in time to when it started. It's not easy
                > and it takes a lot of time and research because
                > all I have is the published materials - most of
                > which are later editions - and the originals have
                > changed over time. All I'm looking at is history
                > and are not trying to negate any of the really
                > beneficial spiritual/universal principles shared,
                > no matter who said it. But the actual history
                > is important, IMO, for other reasons and I
                > imagine most people would have to agree.
                > (To some extent, at least, it does matter to
                > sort legend, from myth, from fact as far as
                > religions go. It's not all the same - or else
                > there wouldn't be three different words and
                > ideas describing them, IMO.)
                >
                > It's hard to trace back to the beginning when
                > one doesn't have the earlier books and manu-
                > scripts. That is part of the reason why it's taking
                > me so long and why I become disgruntled at times
                > too. However, each time I find an original it adds
                > something new to the history. IMO.
                >
                > Thanks for all of your help :)
                >
                > Etznab
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > were happening ( : ) -
                >
                >
                > **************************************
                > See what's new
                > at http://www.aol.com
                >
              • etznab@aol.com
                The only picture in my copy of Path of the Masters is that of Sawan Singh, not Kirpal Singh. Nor does he have close- cropped black hair like Rebazar Tarzs. Not
                Message 7 of 10 , Oct 14, 2007
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                     The only picture in my copy of Path of the Masters is that
                  of Sawan Singh, not Kirpal Singh. Nor does he have close-
                  cropped black hair like Rebazar Tarzs. Not that I can see.
                  Just a big white beard and a turban.

                  Etznab



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