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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Fwd: HK/Eckankar Continues to Rewrite Histo...

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  • etznab@aol.com
    Mish, There was a story about Columbus discovering America on PBS, Channel 9 recently. I didn t get time to watch it, but I heard that the voyage did have
    Message 1 of 10 , Oct 9, 2007
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      Mish,

         There was a story about Columbus discovering America on PBS,
      Channel 9 recently. I didn't get time to watch it, but I heard that the
      voyage did have something to do with one mineral in particular -
      GOLD!

      Etznab



      **************************************
      See what's new at http://www.aol.com
    • mishmisha9
      HI, Etznab and All! I didn t see the PBS show on Columbus, but in my studies of history and of Columbus, I understand that Columbus was commissioned to search
      Message 2 of 10 , Oct 10, 2007
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        HI, Etznab and All!

        I didn't see the PBS show on Columbus, but in my studies of history
        and of Columbus, I understand that Columbus was commissioned to
        search for a water route to the East, for safer access to the treasures
        there, rather than going the dangerous land way. Gold was one of the
        riches being sought as well as spices and other desired things in
        Europe--however, never did I learn or hear that Europe was in need
        of protein!!! LOL! It amazes me that Klemp "dreamed" that idea up,
        but maybe he just tests from time to time to see how gullible his
        chelas are. I mean Klemp can't survive with too many smart people
        under his command--so, making up dumb stories, seems to just
        attract the extremely gullible, delusional and easily manipulated
        kinds of people that Klemp likes best! Believing the story about
        Fubbi and Rebazar assisting Columbus just indicates that if one
        can believe that, then the rest of the eckankar crap is also
        believeable! How else do con men choose their victims, but to see
        how gullible some people are? If a person is in the same class of
        people who accepts the words of an authority figure without question
        than that person is just another gullible person who happens to be
        in a different group from the other gullible people in the world--but
        still that person is gullible.

        Also this minority way of thinking in eckankar might seem novel,
        but it doesn't mean that eckists are anymore special or enlightened
        than any other people on this earth. However, such eck stories
        that distort and erroneously inform, really just highlights how
        dumb the teachings are and how gullible the chelas are to let it
        slide by them! : )

        After joining eckankar one discovers that it can't deliver the promises
        it makes. The excuse given is that one needs more initiations in order
        to open and expand one's consciousness. Still this does not work
        either. This is why eckankar relies upon one's imagination to fulfill
        one's desires--including the desire to belong to a religion. The problem
        with this is that the 30 year plus eckists have come full circle, because
        everyone, including non-eckists, have imaginations and are no less
        spiritually advanced than these high inititates. So it all comes down
        to imagination and delusion, and this is how eckankar works for
        some people!

        Mish

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
        >
        > Mish,
        >
        > There was a story about Columbus discovering America on PBS,
        > Channel 9 recently. I didn't get time to watch it, but I heard that the
        > voyage did have something to do with one mineral in particular -
        > GOLD!
        >
        > Etznab
        >
        >
        > **************************************
        > See what's new at
        > http://www.aol.com
        >
      • prometheus_973
        Hi Etznab, Mish, Sharon, and All, Even though Europe had been undergoing a Little Ice Age (1300-1850) there was a greater desire for those with Power and
        Message 3 of 10 , Oct 10, 2007
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          Hi Etznab, Mish, Sharon, and All,
          Even though Europe had been undergoing a "Little Ice Age"
          (1300-1850) there was a greater desire for those with Power
          and Money to seek more and even greater riches and power!

          Therefore, Klemp's story of Rebazar and Fubbi influencing
          Columbus on the "Inner" and misdirecting CC and his course
          to India for the Greater Good, "protein" for Europeans, seems
          strange and anti-ECK! This "inner plane" influence was a Lower
          Plane, psychic, or Kal act! It is Not an act of Detachment (Vairag)
          or of Non-attachment.

          I really doubt that most ECKists have thought this out and have
          looked at the implications of this ECK Legend "in fact."

          FIRST, What happened to the Law of Non-interference? Why
          is the "Inner" manipulation/mind-control by others (REBAZAR
          & FUBBI) who are either real or ficticious seen as okay by Klemp?

          SECOND, due to the "Little Ice Age," in Europe, the closest source
          of other grains (sources of protein for both humans and livestock)
          Unaffected By The Cold are the countries to the South which have
          been (for centuries) a source of trade.

          THIRD, Europe had more sources of protein grains than the
          Americas. And, Europe had domesticated animals! What Dependable
          sources of protein did the Americas have except for Corn? None!
          They didn't have domesticated animals (until the Europeans brought
          their own) and meat is the best source of protein! Therefore, the
          native people could not depend on hunting enough meat! This
          is why the countries that have the best sources of protein (grains,
          domesticated animals for meat, eggs, cheese, milk, etc.) have more
          advanced civilizations. The body and mind need protein.

          FOURTH, due to the discovery by Columbus (and Rebazar & Fubbi)
          others followed and TOBACCO was, also, brought back to Europe.

          FIFTH, What happened to the indigenous people that Columbus,
          and those who came after him, came in contact with? They were
          murdered, raped, died from diseases, and enslaved due to the
          search for Gold and Silver! Rebazar and Fubbi are responsible for
          this! I wonder what the Central & South American ECK Chelas think
          about this Columbus-Rebazar-Fubbi Story?

          SIXTH, WHY are ECK Masters concerned with the Greater "Good,"
          or health, of these Europeans over others throughout history?
          Maybe Klemp can point out some other humantarian aid that
          the ECK Masters have given Without Consent (via the INNER) to
          other groups of people, or for the Good of the Whole...
          and Civilization.

          BTW - On Amazon.com one can look at the index of
          "The LITTLE ICE AGE: How Climate Made History 1300-1850"
          by Brian Fagan.

          Prometheus





          Mish wrote:
          >
          > HI, Etznab and All!
          >
          > I didn't see the PBS show on Columbus, but in my studies of history
          > and of Columbus, I understand that Columbus was commissioned to
          > search for a water route to the East, for safer access to the treasures
          > there, rather than going the dangerous land way. Gold was one of the
          > riches being sought as well as spices and other desired things in
          > Europe--however, never did I learn or hear that Europe was in need
          > of protein!!! LOL! It amazes me that Klemp "dreamed" that idea up,
          > but maybe he just tests from time to time to see how gullible his
          > chelas are. I mean Klemp can't survive with too many smart people
          > under his command--so, making up dumb stories, seems to just
          > attract the extremely gullible, delusional and easily manipulated
          > kinds of people that Klemp likes best! Believing the story about
          > Fubbi and Rebazar assisting Columbu
          s just indicates that if one
          > can believe that, then the rest of the eckankar crap is also
          > believeable! How else do con men choose their victims, but to see
          > how gullible some people are? If a person is in the same class of
          > people who accepts the words of an authority figure without question
          > then that person is just another gullible person who happens to be
          > in a different group from the other gullible people in the world--but
          > still that person is gullible.
          >
          > Also this minority way of thinking in eckankar might seem novel,
          > but it doesn't mean that eckists are anymore special or enlightened
          > than any other people on this earth. However, such eck stories
          > that distort and erroneously inform, really just highlights how
          > dumb the teachings are and how gullible the chelas are to let it
          > slide by them! : )
          >
          > After joining eckankar one discovers that it can't deliver the promises
          > it makes. The excuse given is that one needs more initiations in order
          > to open and expand one's consciousness. Still this does not work
          > either. This is why eckankar relies upon one's imagination to fulfill
          > one's desires--including the desire to belong to a religion. The problem
          > with this is that the 30 year plus eckists have come full circle, because
          > everyone, including non-eckists, have imaginations and are no less
          > spiritually advanced than these high inititates. So it all comes down
          > to imagination and delusion, and this is how eckankar works for
          > some people!
          >
          > Mish
          >
          > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
          > >
          > > Mish,
          > >
          > > There was a story about Columbus discovering America on PBS,
          > > Channel 9 recently. I didn't get time to watch it, but I heard that the
          > > voyage did have something to do with one mineral in particular -
          > > GOLD!
          > >
          > > Etznab
          > >
          > >
          > > **************************************
          > > See what's new at
          > > http://www.aol.com
          > >
          >
        • etznab@aol.com
          I m not sure if this is the earliest source about Rebazar Tarzs and Columbus, but it isn t particular about what kind of guide- ance. It only says Christopher
          Message 4 of 10 , Oct 11, 2007
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               I'm not sure if this is the earliest source about Rebazar Tarzs
            and Columbus, but it isn't particular about what kind of guide-
            ance. It only says "Christopher Columbus' inner guidance".

            "Rebazar Tarzs was born in the year of 1461, in the mountain
            village of Sarana in northern Tibet. He developed into mastership
            under the spiritual guidance of Yaubl Sacabi. It was he who was  
            responsible for Christopher Columbus' inner guidance. He stayed
            on earth for seventy-five years [until 1536?] teaching ECK, then
            he retired in the same body to the mountainous vastness of the
            Himalayas. He has spiritually developed several ECK Masters,
            and is responsible for the passing of the Rod of ECK power from
            one master to his successor. He also developed spiritually
            Peddar Zaskq." [my brackets]

            [Based on: The Spiritual Notebook, by Paul Twitchell, 10th
            printing 1983, pp. 193-194]  

               Here is another source that mentions it was Fubbi Quantz
            that "encouraged his voyage" Both Eckankar dictionaries, by
            Paul [1973 post-mortem] & Harold [1998] appear to agree.

            "Fubbi Quantz. FOO-bee KWAHNTS The Mahanta, the Living
            ECK Master during the time of Buddha, about 500 B.C. He com-
            pleted his mission, then immortalized his body, and is now the  
            guardian of the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad at the Katsupari Monastery
            in northern Tibet. A teacher of Firdusi, the Persian poet, he was
            also the spiritual guide for Columbus and encouraged his voyage
            to the Americas in order to revitalize the depleted nutrition of the
            Europeans."

            [Based on: A Cosmic Sea of Words: The ECKANKAR Lexicon,
            By Harold Klemp]

               In Dialogues, Chap. five, Doug Marman writes:

            ".... Paul described the spiritual line of ECK Masters, not for
            its historical accuracy based upon historical records, but to
            show that as the Sufis say there is always one who is the
            spiritual Pole of the world, and this light has passed from
            continent to continent, from race to race, from culture to
            culture, down through time."

               I am not certain how to interpret that sentence in The
            Spiritual Notebook regarding Rebazar Tarzs: "He stayed
            on earth for seventy-five years teaching ECK, then he
            retired in the same body to the mountainous vastness
            of the Himalayas." (Doesn't that imply still on Earth? In
            a physical [living I suppose] body?)

               According to "current" record it was 1951 when Paul
            Twitchell met Rebazar Tarzs:

            "He said he had come across the teachings through Sudar
            Singh in a general way as early as 1935, then studied them
            in depth with Rebazar Tarzs starting in 1951."

            [Based on: Article (Getting the ECK Message Out) by Harold
            Klemp - see link]

            http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html#training  

               However, what I find most "telling" is where Paul Twitchell
            "heard" about Rebazar Tarzs:

            "[....] Sudar Singh often spoke of Rebazar Tarzs, a Tibetan
            saint, whom he said was reputed to be over five hundred years
            old, and was at the time living in the foothills between Darjeeling
            and Gangtock somewhere, but presently has a small abode in
            the Hindu Kush mountains on the Afghanistan-Kashmir frontier,
            near Tibet. [....]"
             
            [Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings Volume 1, Paul
            Twitchell (Copyright 1975 by Gail T. Gross), p. 32]

               Here is another paragraph with reference to what
            Sudar Singh (Or, was that Brad Steiger?) "had said":

            "This year in India was not spent totally in an attitude of holy
            learning. Paul had reached his sixteenth birthday, and he
            decided that he needed a furlough from the ashram. He traveled
            to Bombay, put up in a hotel, and then set out in search of a
            holy man who Sudar Singh had said was extremely wise in
            the ways of God."  

            [Based on: IN MY SOUL I AM FREE (ISBN 0-914766-11-2),
            by Brad Steiger (Copyright 1968?), p. 53]

            (Yes, yes, I know about the uncertainty of the 1935 meeting
            with Sudar Singh as explained here on E.S.A. a dozen times.
            I'm only quoting, and are not "stating" facts.)

               In another example the words "said to be" are used with
            regard to Rebazar Tarzs:

            " 'I suppose this protest period grew out of the fact that, shortly
            after the war, I had returned to see Sudar Singh in Allahabad.
            It was while renewing my physical bonds with Sudar Singh that
            I met the ancient Tibetan master, Rebazar Tarzs, who is said to
            be several hundred years old. It was under this holy man that I
            truly began to perfect my study of Eckankar and to master the  
            techniques of soul travel, the ancient path to God-consciousness.' "

            [Based on: IN MY SOUL I AM FREE (ISBN 0-914766-11-2), by
            Brad Steiger (Copyright 1968?), pp. 59-60]  

               What year was this? after the war when Paul Twitchell was
            renewing his bonds with Sudar Singh that he met Rebazar
            Tarzs? 1951?

               In another place Sudar Singh appears to be already dead
            before Paul goes searching for Rebazar Tarzs:

            "[....] My sole purpose was to find the elusive Tibetan lama,
            known as Rebazar Tarzs, of whom I had heard much from the
            late Sudar Singh at Allahabad. [....] It was a hot summer after-
            noon in 1951. [....]"

            [Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings Volume 1, Paul
            Twitchell (Copyright 1975 by Gail T. Gross), p. 32]

            *********

               With regard to the year ("about") 1935 when Paul first
            ("allegedly") met Sudar Singh:

            "Since the advent of ECKANKAR into the modern world,
            starting about 1935, the crises in human affairs have be-
            come more intense and now seem at the bursting point.
            It appears that this ancient teaching which has made its
            way back into the attention of the world, after lying
            dormant for centuries, is here for a purpose. That is to
            bring a stronger spiritual strength to all those who
            become  its followers. [....] The Ancient One, the agent
            of God,  whom we call the Messiah, or the Godman,
            appears in the world with every new age. Now he has
            appeared with the age-old teachings of ECK, which will
            give the human race a spiritual boost, taking many over
            the crisis into the realm of God. The way will be perfectly
            clear now that many can see where the path of God is
            leading them."

            [Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings Volume 1,
            Paul Twitchell - Copyright 1975 by Gail T. Gross, p. 123]

            (In L.T.G. Vol. II - 4th printing 1986 - on page 156, second
            paragraph, Paul Twitchell writes to Gail - in a letter dated
            July 12, 1963 - about a great spiritual teacher that comes
            to this earth every thousand years. The last sentence in
            that paragraph (illustrated in italics the whole letter) reads:
            "I don't know who is the present true master here now,
            nor do I know who was the past." This was in July, 1963!)

               Given that the name Sudar Sing has been used to replace
            both Swami Premananda and Kirpal Singh in some instances,
            perhaps it would be worthwile to learn if they too also knew,
            or had heard, about a wise master several hundred years old?

               ".... Paul described the spiritual line of ECK Masters, not
            for its historical accuracy based upon historical records, but
            to show that as the Sufis say there is always one who is the
            spiritual Pole of the world, and this light has passed from
            continent to continent, from race to race, from culture to
            culture, down through time."

               When considering the spiritual line of Eck Masters,
            I too believe something has passed "... from continent
            to continent, from race to race, from culture to culture,
            down through time."

               Lots and lots of stories, among other things. Though
            not necessarily the "whole" truth. Especially since people
            are - even today - having to throw "light" on the picture
            still :)

            Etznab



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          • etznab@aol.com
            It was not for no reason I mentioned the letter to Gail dated July 12th, 1963. When was it that Kirpal Singh came to America for the second time? Was it 1963?
            Message 5 of 10 , Oct 11, 2007
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                 It was not for no reason I mentioned the letter to
              Gail dated July 12th, 1963.

                 When was it that Kirpal Singh came to America
              for the second time? Was it 1963? And was that
              also the year when Paul took Gail to meet him, or
              to get initiated? Was it 1963 when Paul Twitchell
              sent his Tiger's Fang manuscript to Kirpal Singh &
              when Paul first mentioned (wrote publicly) about
              Eckankar?

              "[....] One of the most interesting things that I find about
              this is the timing of when The Far Country was written.  
              According to Paul, he wrote the book shortly after meeting
              Gail, when he moved down to San Francisco, which would
              have been in 1963-1964. This is the same year Paul gave
              his copy of The Tiger's Fang to Kirpal Singh, and introduced
              Gail to Kirpal, which resulted in Gail being initiated by Kirpal.  
              [....]"

              [http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Six.htm]

              "David [David Lane] begins by referring to an interview
              by Jack Jarvis, on July 9, 1963, called 'Paul Twitchell,
              Man of Parts,' which appears to be the first time that
              Paul mentions the name ECKANKAR."

              [Based on: Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 3]

              *********

                 It might be interesting to know the exact dates for all of
              these events.

                 It has also been pointed out that the names Sudar Singh
              and Rebazar Tarzs didn't start really showing up until 1964.
              However, in the very first letter to Gail appears the name of
              Rebazar Tarzs. This was in December, 1962!

                 In spite of this I saw another version of that paragraph that
              did not contain the name Rebazar Tarzs. This is something I
              thought was worth looking at and I asked about the source of
              that version of the text.

                 I believe it was illustrated by Michael Turner recently on
              A.R.E. I believe he said it appeared in a publication years
              ago.

                 Here is the A.R.E. post from September 30th entitled:
              Letter to Gail Quote:

              In the recent post by Michael Turner there is
              a quote that looks like the 4th paragraph from
              the first Letter to Gail. It reads:

                 This is why I propose to say that my knowledge
              of this is little. I am neither a saint nor holy man,
              but I can only tell you what little I have experienced
              through Kirpal Singh.To him, my personal debt is
              great!

              *********
                 Did this come from David Lane's book? From
              some Sonic Spectrum issue from Sept. 1996?
              Or what? I haven't seen that illustration before
              today. Not that I remember.

                 Does anybody know about the history for that
              illustration? I haven't read David's book, and I'm
              not clear on whether it came from there or not.

              (End post) *********

                 Interestingly, this is the one and only post on
              that thread to date.

                 What an interesting year, 1963.

              Etznab











                




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            • Elizabeth
              Hmmm, were you born in 1963 Etznab? LOL Look I m not going to get too detractor ish on this.... But I used to marvel at the fact (while still an eckists)
              Message 6 of 10 , Oct 12, 2007
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                Hmmm,  were you born in 1963 Etznab?  LOL
                 
                Look I'm not going to get too detractor ish on this....  But I used to marvel at the fact (while still an eckists)  that eckankar came out to the public in 1965, which was also the year I had my first OBE during surgery at 5 years of age....  An old guy came to me and took me out of my body to places I don't recall.  All I do remember is coming back into my body and not liking that idea too well.   Later our family joined eckankar, and everyone in our satsang class insisted I experienced Fubbi and what an amazing thing to have a Master come to me the very year Paul brought the teachings to the Western world. 
                 
                Okay, so I could tie in eckankar and their events being significant in my life, or in past history....  Eckankar uses this as a grand marketing tool for new and current lower initiates to validate their path, and keeping them paying the membership! 
                 
                Have a great weekend everyone,
                Liz
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 (End post) *********

                   Interestingly, this is the one and only post on
                that thread to date.

                   What an interesting year, 1963.

                Etznab 











                  



              • mishmisha9
                Hi, Etznab! I m not sure what it is you are trying to convey here with all these quotes from Twitchell, Klemp, Brad Steiger and Doug Marman regarding eck
                Message 7 of 10 , Oct 12, 2007
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                  Hi, Etznab!

                  I'm not sure what it is you are trying to convey here with
                  all these quotes from Twitchell, Klemp, Brad Steiger and Doug
                  Marman regarding eck master lineage and history. For myself,
                  these sources and quotes have no basis in Truth as they are all
                  interwoven into the fabrication of the big lie that Twitchell
                  put forth for his followers and that Klemp has chosen to
                  perpetuate by putting his own spin on the lies and distortions.

                  Nothing in the eck literature or that Brad Steiger or Doug
                  Marman has written about the eck masters substantiates
                  that any of the eck masters ever existed or exist. It is
                  really too bad that these distortions even include the
                  magical thinking that historical figures like Columbus
                  were influenced by such mythical characters. It is rather
                  ridiculous the whole thing, but for the fact that here in
                  this country there seems to be a great dumbing down of
                  Americans. This truly concerns me.

                  Etznab wrote:
                  When considering the spiritual line of Eck Masters,
                  I too believe something has passed "... from continent
                  to continent, from race to race, from culture to culture,
                  down through time."

                  Lots and lots of stories, among other things. Though
                  not necessarily the "whole" truth. Especially since people
                  are - even today - having to throw "light" on the picture
                  still :) (end of Etznab's quote)

                  The sources and stories in your post are all one and the
                  same basically--nothing new to shed true "light", and
                  nothing quoted even comes close to the "whole" truth--
                  if anything, nothing could be further from the truth.
                  This is really sad, all the lies, that continue. Klemp had
                  a choice to bring the truth out but he chose to disregard
                  it, and therefore what dim spiritual light Klemp had in the
                  beginning went out years ago.

                  Mish

                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                  etznab@... wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > I'm not sure if this is the earliest source about Rebazar Tarzs
                  > and Columbus, but it isn't particular about what kind of guide-
                  > ance. It only says "Christopher Columbus' inner guidance".
                  >
                  > "Rebazar Tarzs was born in the year of 1461, in the mountain
                  > village of Sarana in northern Tibet. He developed into mastership
                  > under the spiritual guidance of Yaubl Sacabi. It was he who was
                  > responsible for Christopher Columbus' inner guidance. He stayed
                  > on earth for seventy-five years [until 1536?] teaching ECK, then
                  > he retired in the same body to the mountainous vastness of the
                  > Himalayas. He has spiritually developed several ECK Masters,
                  > and is responsible for the passing of the Rod of ECK power from
                  > one master to his successor. He also developed spiritually
                  > Peddar Zaskq." [my brackets]
                  >
                  > [Based on: The Spiritual Notebook, by Paul Twitchell, 10th
                  > printing 1983, pp. 193-194]  
                  >
                  > Here is another source that mentions it was Fubbi Quantz
                  > that "encouraged his voyage" Both Eckankar dictionaries, by
                  > Paul [1973 post-mortem] & Harold [1998] appear to agree.
                  >
                  > "Fubbi Quantz. FOO-bee KWAHNTS The Mahanta, the Living
                  > ECK Master during the time of Buddha, about 500 B.C. He com-
                  > pleted his mission, then immortalized his body, and is now the
                  > guardian of the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad at the Katsupari Monastery
                  > in northern Tibet. A teacher of Firdusi, the Persian poet, he was
                  > also the spiritual guide for Columbus and encouraged his voyage
                  > to the Americas in order to revitalize the depleted nutrition of the
                  > Europeans."
                  >
                  > [Based on: A Cosmic Sea of Words: The ECKANKAR Lexicon,
                  > By Harold Klemp]
                  >
                  > In Dialogues, Chap. five, Doug Marman writes:
                  >
                  > ".... Paul described the spiritual line of ECK Masters, not for
                  > its historical accuracy based upon historical records, but to
                  > show that as the Sufis say there is always one who is the
                  > spiritual Pole of the world, and this light has passed from
                  > continent to continent, from race to race, from culture to
                  > culture, down through time."
                  >
                  > I am not certain how to interpret that sentence in The
                  > Spiritual Notebook regarding Rebazar Tarzs: "He stayed
                  > on earth for seventy-five years teaching ECK, then he
                  > retired in the same body to the mountainous vastness
                  > of the Himalayas." (Doesn't that imply still on Earth? In
                  > a physical [living I suppose] body?)
                  >
                  > According to "current" record it was 1951 when Paul
                  > Twitchell met Rebazar Tarzs:
                  >
                  > "He said he had come across the teachings through Sudar
                  > Singh in a general way as early as 1935, then studied them
                  > in depth with Rebazar Tarzs starting in 1951."
                  >
                  > [Based on: Article (Getting the ECK Message Out) by Harold
                  > Klemp - see link]
                  >
                  > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html#training
                  >
                  > However, what I find most "telling" is where Paul Twitchell
                  > "heard" about Rebazar Tarzs:
                  >
                  > "[....] Sudar Singh often spoke of Rebazar Tarzs, a Tibetan
                  > saint, whom he said was reputed to be over five hundred years
                  > old, and was at the time living in the foothills between Darjeeling
                  > and Gangtock somewhere, but presently has a small abode in
                  > the Hindu Kush mountains on the Afghanistan-Kashmir frontier,
                  > near Tibet. [....]"
                  >
                  > [Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings Volume 1, Paul
                  > Twitchell (Copyright 1975 by Gail T. Gross), p. 32]
                  >
                  > Here is another paragraph with reference to what
                  > Sudar Singh (Or, was that Brad Steiger?) "had said":
                  >
                  > "This year in India was not spent totally in an attitude of holy
                  > learning. Paul had reached his sixteenth birthday, and he
                  > decided that he needed a furlough from the ashram. He traveled
                  > to Bombay, put up in a hotel, and then set out in search of a
                  > holy man who Sudar Singh had said was extremely wise in
                  > the ways of God."
                  >
                  > [Based on: IN MY SOUL I AM FREE (ISBN 0-914766-11-2),
                  > by Brad Steiger (Copyright 1968?), p. 53]
                  >
                  > (Yes, yes, I know about the uncertainty of the 1935 meeting
                  > with Sudar Singh as explained here on E.S.A. a dozen times.
                  > I'm only quoting, and are not "stating" facts.)
                  >
                  > In another example the words "said to be" are used with
                  > regard to Rebazar Tarzs:
                  >
                  > " 'I suppose this protest period grew out of the fact that, shortly
                  > after the war, I had returned to see Sudar Singh in Allahabad.
                  > It was while renewing my physical bonds with Sudar Singh that
                  > I met the ancient Tibetan master, Rebazar Tarzs, who is said to
                  > be several hundred years old. It was under this holy man that I
                  > truly began to perfect my study of Eckankar and to master the
                  > techniques of soul travel, the ancient path to God-consciousness.' "
                  >
                  > [Based on: IN MY SOUL I AM FREE (ISBN 0-914766-11-2), by
                  > Brad Steiger (Copyright 1968?), pp. 59-60]
                  >
                  > What year was this? after the war when Paul Twitchell was
                  > renewing his bonds with Sudar Singh that he met Rebazar
                  > Tarzs? 1951?
                  >
                  > In another place Sudar Singh appears to be already dead
                  > before Paul goes searching for Rebazar Tarzs:
                  >
                  > "[....] My sole purpose was to find the elusive Tibetan lama,
                  > known as Rebazar Tarzs, of whom I had heard much from the
                  > late Sudar Singh at Allahabad. [....] It was a hot summer after-
                  > noon in 1951. [....]"
                  >
                  > [Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings Volume 1, Paul
                  > Twitchell (Copyright 1975 by Gail T. Gross), p. 32]
                  >
                  > *********
                  >
                  > With regard to the year ("about") 1935 when Paul first
                  > ("allegedly") met Sudar Singh:
                  >
                  > "Since the advent of ECKANKAR into the modern world,
                  > starting about 1935, the crises in human affairs have be-
                  > come more intense and now seem at the bursting point.
                  > It appears that this ancient teaching which has made its
                  > way back into the attention of the world, after lying
                  > dormant for centuries, is here for a purpose. That is to
                  > bring a stronger spiritual strength to all those who
                  > become  its followers. [....] The Ancient One, the agent
                  > of God, whom we call the Messiah, or the Godman,
                  > appears in the world with every new age. Now he has
                  > appeared with the age-old teachings of ECK, which will
                  > give the human race a spiritual boost, taking many over
                  > the crisis into the realm of God. The way will be perfectly
                  > clear now that many can see where the path of God is
                  > leading them."
                  >
                  > [Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings Volume 1,
                  > Paul Twitchell - Copyright 1975 by Gail T. Gross, p. 123]
                  >
                  > (In L.T.G. Vol. II - 4th printing 1986 - on page 156, second
                  > paragraph, Paul Twitchell writes to Gail - in a letter dated
                  > July 12, 1963 - about a great spiritual teacher that comes
                  > to this earth every thousand years. The last sentence in
                  > that paragraph (illustrated in italics the whole letter) reads:
                  > "I don't know who is the present true master here now,
                  > nor do I know who was the past." This was in July, 1963!)
                  >
                  > Given that the name Sudar Sing has been used to replace
                  > both Swami Premananda and Kirpal Singh in some instances,
                  > perhaps it would be worthwile to learn if they too also knew,
                  > or had heard, about a wise master several hundred years old?
                  >
                  > ".... Paul described the spiritual line of ECK Masters, not
                  > for its historical accuracy based upon historical records, but
                  > to show that as the Sufis say there is always one who is the
                  > spiritual Pole of the world, and this light has passed from
                  > continent to continent, from race to race, from culture to
                  > culture, down through time."
                  >
                  > When considering the spiritual line of Eck Masters,
                  > I too believe something has passed "... from continent
                  > to continent, from race to race, from culture to culture,
                  > down through time."
                  >
                  > Lots and lots of stories, among other things. Though
                  > not necessarily the "whole" truth. Especially since people
                  > are - even today - having to throw "light" on the picture
                  > still :)
                  >
                  > Etznab
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > **************************************
                  > See what's new at http://www.aol.com
                  >
                • etznab@aol.com
                  Mish, Forgive me for rambling. I was basically trying to sort legend, from fact, from myth. I know that David, Doug and others have spent way more time doing
                  Message 8 of 10 , Oct 12, 2007
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                    Mish,

                       Forgive me for rambling. I was basically trying to sort
                    legend, from fact, from myth. I know that David, Doug and
                    others have spent way more time doing research, but what
                    I haven't seen much of in their illustrations is a timeline
                    context where all of the dates and the corresponding events
                    are spelled out more or less in chronological order. This is
                    probably the only thing unique about the way I personaly
                    choose to evaluate history. Besides that, the information I
                    use is basically the same as what the others have.

                       It's not an easy task, I'll say that. Thanks for the findings
                    and comments from David Lane, BTW. I agree about much
                    of what people have to look at are not "their" writings. They
                    are not the ones who wrote it in the first place, however, the
                    writings are mostly what they have to work with.

                       In my recent posts I was trying to trace back to the begin-
                    ing and looking for any connection between what Paul gave
                    out as history or legend, with what other paths he knew
                    about were familiar with.

                       I traced back to 1963 because that is the year when the
                    word Eckankar appeared in public and the year when I
                    suspect the relationship between Paul Twitchell and Kirpal
                    Singh "started" to change. There was a reason I focussed
                    on that year - not because I was born near the time when
                    those things were happening ( : ) - but because it wasn't
                    long afterward (1963) when the names Rebazar Tarzs and
                    Sudar Singh started to appear. It has to do with tracing of
                    things back to the beginning.

                       Paul Twitchell seemed to indicate he first heard about
                    Rebazar Tarzs from Sudar Singh. So I tried to trace back
                    to when they first met - according to the writings. Let me
                    put it another way: I tried to trace the story about when
                    they (Paul Twitchell & Sudar Singh) first met. Their are a
                    number of different dates and versions recorded.

                       1935 appeared to be significant because it was a year
                    when Paul & Sudar met and because of the reference to
                    Eckankar - the teachings - reappearing then. I gave the
                    quote in an earlier post.

                       It was confusing, I know, because I was trying to trace
                    the beginnings of several different things at once. Initially
                    though, it was a search for legends that inspired me to
                    start writing those posts in the beginning. I was curious
                    whether Kirpal Singh and his group shared any legends
                    similar to what are found in Eckankar. The Christopher
                    Columbus stuff and others.

                       Frankly, the trail seems to begin and end with Sudar
                    Singh, as far as the story about Rebazar Tarzs goes.
                    The beginning of it, that is (not about Columbus). Here
                    is the thing though, it was Sudar Singh that replaced
                    the name Kirpal Singh in a lot of the writings that I have
                    looked at. And it was Rebazar Tarzs that appeared to
                    replace Kirpal Singh in the first letter to Gail in December
                    1962 and also in The Tiger's Fang (manuscript of which
                    was sent to Kirpal Singh around 1963). So what I saw
                    was that the name Kirpal Singh kept popping up in the
                    begining (according to what I saw, and what others
                    said they saw). In other words, before Sudar Singh
                    and Rebazar Tarzs there was Kirpal Singh. That is,
                    if you trace the published material back to the beginning
                    when Eckankar was first mentioned publicly (1963),
                    it was Kirpal Singh that Paul was mentioning, not
                    Sudar Singh or Rebazar Tarzs. They appear to come
                    mostly afterwards (far as the published record of events).

                       What did Kirpal Singh know? That was my initial
                    question. Did Kirpal share any stories with Paul?
                    I don't know what all he picked up from the Hindu
                    teachings, whether Paul only included teachings
                    or some of the history, legend and myths too.

                       I'm probably gonna go and read the Tiger's Fang
                    next (it's been a long time) because it talks about
                    planes, and the gods of different planes, which I be-
                    lieve is a part of the teachings in other Hindu paths.
                    Afterall, Paul Twitchell was sending his Tiger's Fang
                    manuscript to Kirpal Singh - and I doubt that Paul
                    would have done such a thing if ithese were such
                    foreign ideas to Kirpal Singh. Also, I want to look
                    at if there is a place in the beginning of that book
                    where the physical characteristics of Rebazar
                    Tarzs are described. If they are and they do not
                    match the features of Kirpal Singh then I have to
                    go and determine if these amount to additions, or
                    if they were in the original manuscript.

                       Basically, I'm trying to follow the information
                    back in time to when it started. It's not easy
                    and it takes a lot of time and research because
                    all I have is the published materials - most of
                    which are later editions - and the originals have
                    changed over time. All I'm looking at is history
                    and are not trying to negate any of the really
                    beneficial spiritual/universal principles shared,
                    no matter who said it. But the actual history
                    is important, IMO, for other reasons and I
                    imagine most people would have to agree.
                    (To some extent, at least, it does matter to
                    sort legend, from myth, from fact as far as
                    religions go. It's not all the same - or else
                    there wouldn't be three different words and
                    ideas describing them, IMO.)

                       It's hard to trace back to the beginning when
                    one doesn't have the earlier books and manu-
                    scripts. That is part of the reason why it's taking
                    me so long and why I become disgruntled at times
                    too. However, each time I find an original it adds
                    something new to the history. IMO.

                       Thanks for all of your help :)

                    Etznab

                      



                    were happening ( : ) - 



                    **************************************
                    See what's new at http://www.aol.com
                  • empath1944
                    Dear Etz: There is a picture of Sri Kirpal Sing in Julian Johnson s _Path of the Masters. I love to look those eyes. He IS like Rebezar s descriptions. I
                    Message 9 of 10 , Oct 13, 2007
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                      Dear Etz:
                      There is a picture of Sri Kirpal Sing in Julian Johnson's _Path of
                      the Masters. I love to look those eyes. He IS like Rebezar's
                      descriptions. I found myself sitting at a table with the artist who
                      painted her impressions of the ECK masters. That feeling for me was
                      wavy, floaty, delicate, gentle and very interesting I happened there
                      as I now think and picture on it. She seemed to feel guilty it took
                      her so long. My God.
                      EM

                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
                      >
                      > Mish,
                      >
                      > Forgive me for rambling. I was basically trying to sort
                      > legend, from fact, from myth. I know that David, Doug and
                      > others have spent way more time doing research, but what
                      > I haven't seen much of in their illustrations is a timeline
                      > context where all of the dates and the corresponding events
                      > are spelled out more or less in chronological order. This is
                      > probably the only thing unique about the way I personaly
                      > choose to evaluate history. Besides that, the information I
                      > use is basically the same as what the others have.
                      >
                      > It's not an easy task, I'll say that. Thanks for the findings
                      > and comments from David Lane, BTW. I agree about much
                      > of what people have to look at are not "their" writings. They
                      > are not the ones who wrote it in the first place, however, the
                      > writings are mostly what they have to work with.
                      >
                      > In my recent posts I was trying to trace back to the begin-
                      > ing and looking for any connection between what Paul gave
                      > out as history or legend, with what other paths he knew
                      > about were familiar with.
                      >
                      > I traced back to 1963 because that is the year when the
                      > word Eckankar appeared in public and the year when I
                      > suspect the relationship between Paul Twitchell and Kirpal
                      > Singh "started" to change. There was a reason I focussed
                      > on that year - not because I was born near the time when
                      > those things were happening ( : ) - but because it wasn't
                      > long afterward (1963) when the names Rebazar Tarzs and
                      > Sudar Singh started to appear. It has to do with tracing of
                      > things back to the beginning.
                      >
                      > Paul Twitchell seemed to indicate he first heard about
                      > Rebazar Tarzs from Sudar Singh. So I tried to trace back
                      > to when they first met - according to the writings. Let me
                      > put it another way: I tried to trace the story about when
                      > they (Paul Twitchell & Sudar Singh) first met. Their are a
                      > number of different dates and versions recorded.
                      >
                      > 1935 appeared to be significant because it was a year
                      > when Paul & Sudar met and because of the reference to
                      > Eckankar - the teachings - reappearing then. I gave the
                      > quote in an earlier post.
                      >
                      > It was confusing, I know, because I was trying to trace
                      > the beginnings of several different things at once. Initially
                      > though, it was a search for legends that inspired me to
                      > start writing those posts in the beginning. I was curious
                      > whether Kirpal Singh and his group shared any legends
                      > similar to what are found in Eckankar. The Christopher
                      > Columbus stuff and others.
                      >
                      > Frankly, the trail seems to begin and end with Sudar
                      > Singh, as far as the story about Rebazar Tarzs goes.
                      > The beginning of it, that is (not about Columbus). Here
                      > is the thing though, it was Sudar Singh that replaced
                      > the name Kirpal Singh in a lot of the writings that I have
                      > looked at. And it was Rebazar Tarzs that appeared to
                      > replace Kirpal Singh in the first letter to Gail in December
                      > 1962 and also in The Tiger's Fang (manuscript of which
                      > was sent to Kirpal Singh around 1963). So what I saw
                      > was that the name Kirpal Singh kept popping up in the
                      > begining (according to what I saw, and what others
                      > said they saw). In other words, before Sudar Singh
                      > and Rebazar Tarzs there was Kirpal Singh. That is,
                      > if you trace the published material back to the beginning
                      > when Eckankar was first mentioned publicly (1963),
                      > it was Kirpal Singh that Paul was mentioning, not
                      > Sudar Singh or Rebazar Tarzs. They appear to come
                      > mostly afterwards (far as the published record of events).
                      >
                      > What did Kirpal Singh know? That was my initial
                      > question. Did Kirpal share any stories with Paul?
                      > I don't know what all he picked up from the Hindu
                      > teachings, whether Paul only included teachings
                      > or some of the history, legend and myths too.
                      >
                      > I'm probably gonna go and read the Tiger's Fang
                      > next (it's been a long time) because it talks about
                      > planes, and the gods of different planes, which I be-
                      > lieve is a part of the teachings in other Hindu paths.
                      > Afterall, Paul Twitchell was sending his Tiger's Fang
                      > manuscript to Kirpal Singh - and I doubt that Paul
                      > would have done such a thing if ithese were such
                      > foreign ideas to Kirpal Singh. Also, I want to look
                      > at if there is a place in the beginning of that book
                      > where the physical characteristics of Rebazar
                      > Tarzs are described. If they are and they do not
                      > match the features of Kirpal Singh then I have to
                      > go and determine if these amount to additions, or
                      > if they were in the original manuscript.
                      >
                      > Basically, I'm trying to follow the information
                      > back in time to when it started. It's not easy
                      > and it takes a lot of time and research because
                      > all I have is the published materials - most of
                      > which are later editions - and the originals have
                      > changed over time. All I'm looking at is history
                      > and are not trying to negate any of the really
                      > beneficial spiritual/universal principles shared,
                      > no matter who said it. But the actual history
                      > is important, IMO, for other reasons and I
                      > imagine most people would have to agree.
                      > (To some extent, at least, it does matter to
                      > sort legend, from myth, from fact as far as
                      > religions go. It's not all the same - or else
                      > there wouldn't be three different words and
                      > ideas describing them, IMO.)
                      >
                      > It's hard to trace back to the beginning when
                      > one doesn't have the earlier books and manu-
                      > scripts. That is part of the reason why it's taking
                      > me so long and why I become disgruntled at times
                      > too. However, each time I find an original it adds
                      > something new to the history. IMO.
                      >
                      > Thanks for all of your help :)
                      >
                      > Etznab
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > were happening ( : ) -
                      >
                      >
                      > **************************************
                      > See what's new
                      > at http://www.aol.com
                      >
                    • etznab@aol.com
                      The only picture in my copy of Path of the Masters is that of Sawan Singh, not Kirpal Singh. Nor does he have close- cropped black hair like Rebazar Tarzs. Not
                      Message 10 of 10 , Oct 14, 2007
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                           The only picture in my copy of Path of the Masters is that
                        of Sawan Singh, not Kirpal Singh. Nor does he have close-
                        cropped black hair like Rebazar Tarzs. Not that I can see.
                        Just a big white beard and a turban.

                        Etznab



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