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"A (real) Year of Blessing" - Klemp Steps Down!

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  • prometheus_973
    WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO THE MAHANTA CONSCIOUSNESS ??? PT Defined It and Klemp Eliminated This Definition! WHY? Twitchell defines Mahanta Consciousness in his
    Message 1 of 15 , Oct 7, 2007
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      WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO THE MAHANTA CONSCIOUSNESS ???
      PT Defined It and Klemp Eliminated This Definition! WHY?

      Twitchell defines "Mahanta Consciousness" in his ECKANKAR
      Dictionary, but Klemp deletes this reference in the EK Lexicon.
      Look at Klemp's Lexicon and all one can find is the definition
      for the "Mahanta" 14th Initiate. I thought the Mahanta Con.
      was supposed to be more impersonal and intangible.

      PT: "Mahanta Consciousness - The spiritual leader,
      or Godman; head of ECK;

      [ME: Well! That's not impersonal or intangible either!
      No wonder HK makes a distinction between the "full"
      14th initiate LEM/Mahanta versus the 12th or 13th
      (in training) Mahanta]

      all those who come to him in the present age have been
      with him since their advent into the world;

      [ME: This must be true for DG's initiates too? Shame
      on you Mr. Klemp for biting the hand that passed you
      the "ROD!" Afterall, RT chose PT, and RT/PT/GT
      chose DG, and DG (out of love) handed you the Rod!]

      the body of the Mahanta is the ECK, which is the essence
      of God flowing out from the Ocean of Love and Mercy,
      sustaining all life and tying together all forms;

      [ME: the definition for "spiritual hierarchy" lists the Mahanta
      third and after the ECK. Besides, how can the ECK be limited
      by a number like 14th Plane? Also, the "ANAMI LOK" is where
      SUGMAD resides and it's the 10th Plane! (pg. 9, EK Lexicon).
      How can the Mahanta be 14th Plane when Sugmad resides on
      the 10th Plane?!]

      the Vi-Guru, the Light Giver; a state of God Consciousness
      which is beyond the titles given in religions which designate
      states of consciousness; the highest of all states of consciousness."

      [ME: Paul had to one-up Radhasoami ("Path of the Masters") and
      Ruhani Satsang (Kirpal Singh) in order to be "Top Dog". Afterall,
      you're not going to Buy or Invest in something if it's not the very
      "Best" and "Fastest" are you?]

      ******************************************************************

      Yes, by now (after 25 years) there should be: 33,333 6th EK Initiates;
      3,333 7ths; 333 8ths; 33 9ths! Klemp has fallen down on the job
      and has focused upon building monuments to his ego!

      Darwin may have been a big spender, but at least he wasn't
      stingy with initiations, and neither was Paul!

      So, there will probably be a big buzz at the up and coming
      2007 EWWS (not to be confused with the EWS, or ECK Worship
      Service).

      ECKists will be talking... is this the Year for a Change in
      Leadership... Finally!!! Will ECKists have a leader that won't
      be a simpleton or a nerdy looking recluse and an embarrassment
      to Vahanas?

      When comparing HK to GW one has to admit that ANY CHANGE
      would be for the better... even if HK remains as the "full" (FMOC)
      master-on-campus!

      Or, will Klemp disapoint Chelas once again with a new ploy
      (delay tactic) and new distractions (buildings, books, etc.)?

      Yes, ECKists will be "challenged" by the I-35 Bridge Collapse
      and the Airlines reducing plane size and customers flying
      into Minneapolis, but this just puts them into the same boat
      as others... it's called life! Therefore this is not a "special"
      event created by the Kal nor a special circumstance (test)
      for ECKists alone! WAKE UP ECKIES AND LOOK AROUND AT
      OTHER PEOPLE... THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS YOUR BELIEF!!!

      Really, ECKists are vain and live in a bubble! Look around
      and get out of your shells! Don't limit your thinking to ECK
      Dogma and to EK religious belief that isolates you from life
      experiences and having compassion and empathy of others.
      You are no more "special" than any other Soul... and don't
      think you're more "advanced" because someone has told
      you so, or trained you to jump though hoops for initiations!

      WAKE UP TO THE REAL TRUTH! YOU ARE SPIRITUALLY FREE NOW!

      Prometheus








      mish wrote:
      >
      >
      > LET'S DISCUSS KLEMP MORE! WHAT'S WRONG WITH
      > HIM AND ALL HIS FOIBLES AS A SELF-PROCLAIMED
      > GODMAN! IT IS NOT ALL ABOUT TWITCHELL!
      >
      > For me, actually, eckankar is just a man-made new
      > age religion. Why and what Twitchell did in creating it
      > can be debated until the cows come home. Everyone
      > interested in this strange little known cult the least
      > little bit takes one side or the other in the debate which
      > basically comes down to how important or insignificant
      > the plagiarisms and lies are to the eckankar teachings.
      > Those who remain in eckankar have chosen to miminalize
      > the fraud that has taken place and are quite confortable
      > to remain in the delusion and illusion of the eck teachings.
      > They support Klemp as he continues the lies and deceptions,
      > keeping silent as he also molds eckankar to fit his
      > narrow-minded, anti-social and narcissistic personality.
      > Many eckists become like him which is not something one
      > should really strive for! : )
      >
      > But to take this to a present day discussion, why do we not,
      > meaning eckists and non-eckists alike debate the leadership
      > of Klemp??? Klemp has been the mahanta/L.E.M. far longer
      > than his predecessors, their years combined. It seems to me
      > that we need to look long and hard at what Klemp has done
      > and is doing since taking the reins of eckankar and shaping it
      > into his creation. To me, what eckankar is today is greatly flawed
      > by Klemp's shifty hands! He is no godman--how can anyone
      > consider such a silly, nerdy looking and odd speaking man a
      > god incarnate? Just looking at him and listening to his stupid
      > talks makes the whole org look ridiculous!! He's a joke and
      > there's nothing special or original about him! LOL!
      >
      > My guess is that many long time eckists are waiting, still
      > waiting, for the winds of change to happen--when Klemp
      > either steps down or is removed from his throne. I believe
      > that many of the true eckists are just waiting for a power
      > shift in leadership which they hope will then bring the outer
      > org in line with what they are feeling/experiencing on their
      > inner! They are hopeful that eckankar will become the
      > religion they have longed for! : )
      >
      > Klemp must fear these patient chelas very much, and thus, he
      > has slowed down the initiations in order to remain in control.
      > It seems this is the true reason for being stingy about the
      > initiations! Klemp is a stingy and fearful little old man--he
      > is no guru or godman! So again I ask, why not discuss Klemp,
      > and let Twitchell be for the most part? Let's get to the heart of
      > the matter which is what Klemp is doing with eckankar! The
      > continuing discussions about how eckankar began and how
      > Twitchell established it, speculating on his motivations, etc.
      > are all distractions from what needs to be analyzed today--
      > that being Harold Klemp and what he has done to eckankar!
      > My gut feeling is that Twitchell would not be happy with what
      > Harold has done to his creation! LOL!
      >
      > BTW, I didn't leave eckankar because of David Lane's book-I
      > haven't read it. I left because of Ford Johnson's "Confessions
      > of a God Seeker." Many eckists left after becoming aware of
      > Ford's book. No need to give Lane all the credit. Others have left
      > because they saw through the veil of illusion--they knew
      > something wasn't right in belonging to the eck cult and they
      > hit the road on their own! There are many reasons and ways
      > that one can wake up to the truth about eckankar . . . and get
      > out! : )
      >
      > Mish
      >
      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
      > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
      > >
      > > I was thinking about what Klemp said about Gross
      > > holding onto the Rod of ECK Power beyond his time
      > > and was, therefore, "burned" by it.
      > >
      > > If this is true that Gross should have passed the Rod
      > > to Klemp in 1980 (or to someone else) can Eckists,
      > > then, really blame Gross (for his actions) anymore than
      > > they could blame Klemp for slowing their spiritual growth
      > > (initiations)? What is more important for ECKists? Fiscal
      > > Responsibility, Buildings, or Initiations? I was, mostly,
      > > focused on spiritual growth... Initiations!
      > >
      > > Actually, Klemp has more blame by hanging onto
      > > this Power way longer than any 20th Century LEM,
      > > and for delaying and limiting initiations. There should
      > > be at least 33 9ths, 333 8ths, and 3,333 7ths after
      > > 25 years of "leadership." Sure, this would make the org
      > > very "top heavy" but so what! It should be! Aren't Eckists
      > > supposed to be the "cream of the crop?" Why then don't
      > > the initiations reflect this? See, this is just one of
      > > many reasons why the long-time Eckists want to see
      > > Klemp step down.
      > >
      > > HK restructured the org and moved the headquarters
      > > in order to have Total Control over the EK Board of
      > > Trustees. The RESA structure is the extended arm of
      > > this control.
      > >
      > > What were viewed as inappropiate actions by Gross
      > > were really just the "effects" of hanging onto the Rod
      > > beyond his time. DG's rationale and thinking was off
      > > balance and askewed. Consideration and understanding
      > > are still lacking for this phenomonia of holding onto
      > > the "Rod" beyond the time the LEM should. Klemp is
      > > still holding a grudge!
      > >
      > > Even today, the RESA police spy on Eckists with informers
      > > as they ferret out those who are Not supposed to even
      > > speak Darwin's name! And, let's face it, there will never
      > > be discussions of the "positive" elements concerning those
      > > 10 lost years of EK History. This is extremely strange since
      > > most Higher Initiates (6-14) have most of their initiations
      > > from those 10 years under Gross!
      > >
      > > Klemp's chelas, from Oct. 22, 1981, are mostly 4ths and
      > > 5ths! Let's face it, according to EK Dogma Chelas, H.I.s
      > > are Not Established on the SOUL PLANE "until" they have
      > > become 6ths!
      > >
      > > This 6th initiation is the "proof" that they have completed
      > > all of the trials and tests for the 5th initiation. I wonder
      > > if this was always the case? Or, did Klemp redefine this
      > > dogma (with these restrictions) "after" he slowed the
      > > initiations down?
      > >
      > > Therefore, Klemp might want to hold onto his MAHANTA
      > > position, until, he can get the majority of "his" Chelas to
      > > the 6th initiation. Maybe this is why he slowed initiations
      > > down in the first place? Maybe it was used as a ploy, along
      > > with building structures, to insure that he would need to
      > > be the LEM and/or Mahanta for 25-30 years or longer!
      > >
      > > Yes, Klemp is very selfish and has done ECK Chelas an
      > > even greater injustice than Gross ever did. Klemp's focus
      > > has been on the tangible instead of the intangible.
      > >
      > > Prometheus
    • prometheus_973
      Wll Don Ginn, or Joan be the new President of the Org? Will Peter Skelsky become the new LEM? Or, will Don be the new LEM? Can Joan, still, be moved in as the
      Message 2 of 15 , Oct 15, 2007
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        Wll Don Ginn, or Joan be the new President of the Org?
        Will Peter Skelsky become the new LEM? Or, will Don be
        the new LEM? Can Joan, still, be moved in as the Co-LEM
        without problems? After 25 years it seems like Klemp still
        has a death-grip on the Rod of (EK) Power! Although, the
        ROD has "Burned" Klemp for a decade or more, and has
        affected his health, he has refused to let it go!

        Of course, in any scenario, Klemp won't give up the Top
        Dog spot as "FULL" Mahanta [Chief God over the copyrighted
        materials (words) and property of the Eckankar Corp. in the
        Lower Planes of KAL]!

        HK's Lust for Fame and Power has distorted his Soul on every
        level. The ROD has become Klemp's personal "precious"
        possession, and should have been LET GO of years ago!

        When will ECKists see the Truth... that only the weak, fearful,
        and inexperienced Souls need Masters and Religion, and
        that those EK initiations are just security blankets and
        carrots to feed the ego! Soul is its own Master and needs
        to be Free of Religious Dogma and Group Think!

        Prometheus



        Prometheus wrote:
        >
        I was thinking about what Klemp said about Gross
        holding onto the Rod of ECK Power beyond his time
        and was, therefore, "burned" by it.
        >
        If this is true that Gross should have passed the Rod
        to Klemp in 1980 (or to someone else) can Eckists,
        then, really blame Gross (for his actions) anymore than
        they could blame Klemp for slowing their spiritual growth
        (initiations)? What is more important for ECKists? Fiscal
        Responsibility, Buildings, or Initiations? I was, mostly,
        focused on spiritual growth... Initiations!
        >
        Actually, Klemp has more blame by hanging onto
        this Power way longer than any 20th Century LEM,
        and for delaying and limiting initiations. There should
        be at least 33 9ths, 333 8ths, and 3,333 7ths after
        25 years of "leadership." Sure, this would make the org
        very "top heavy" but so what! It should be! Aren't Eckists
        supposed to be the "cream of the crop?" Why then don't
        the initiations reflect this? See, this is just one of
        many reasons why the long-time Eckists want to see
        Klemp step down.
        >
        HK restructured the org and moved the headquarters
        in order to have Total Control over the EK Board of
        Trustees. The RESA structure is the extended arm of
        this control.
        >
        What were viewed as inappropiate actions by Gross
        were really just the "effects" of hanging onto the Rod
        beyond his time. DG's rationale and thinking was off
        balance and askewed. Consideration and understanding
        are still lacking for this phenomonia of holding onto
        the "Rod" beyond the time the LEM should. Klemp is
        still holding a grudge!
        >
        Even today, the RESA police spy on Eckists with informers
        as they ferret out those who are Not supposed to even
        speak Darwin's name! And, let's face it, there will never
        be discussions of the "positive" elements concerning those
        10 lost years of EK History. This is extremely strange since
        most Higher Initiates (6-14) have most of their initiations
        from those 10 years under Gross!
        >
        Klemp's chelas, from Oct. 22, 1981, are mostly 4ths and
        5ths! Let's face it, according to EK Dogma Chelas, H.I.s
        are Not Established on the SOUL PLANE "until" they have
        become 6ths!
        >
        This 6th initiation is the "proof" that they have completed
        all of the trails and tests for the 5th initiation. I wonder
        if this was always the case? Or, did Klemp redefine this
        dogma (with these restrictions) "after" he slowed the
        initiations down?
        >
        Therefore, Klemp might want to hold onto his MAHANTA
        position, until, he can get the majority of "his" Chelas to
        the 6th initiation. Maybe this is why he slowed initiations
        down in the first place? Maybe it was used as a ploy, along
        with building structures, to insure that he would need to
        be the LEM and/or Mahanta for 25-30 years or longer!
        >
        Yes, Klemp is very selfish and has done ECK Chelas an
        even greater injustice than Gross ever did. Klemp's focus
        has been on the tangible instead of the intangible.
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
        > ***
        > Prometheus wrote:
        > >
        Hi Mish,
        I just read your post. Good one! Yes, it does seem
        like Klemp is taking an awfully long time to "train"
        a replacement. HK's "Wonderful" book has
        a 2005 copyright and he states it will take him
        "several" more years to train someone! A "few"
        means 3-4 right? Therefore, "several" would be
        4-5 or more right? Or, is Klemp incompetent at
        counting as well? If Klemp is being honest and
        is not trying to blind-side his chelas it would seem
        that his replacement won't be ready until, at least,
        Oct. 22, 2009. However, ECKists must always keep
        in mind the Catch-22 rule!
        > >
        However, has Klemp ever really been open, honest,
        or clear about anything? Hmmmmm. The closest
        he came to this was when he had to admit (because
        of it being Public Record) that he was locked-up in
        a mental institution. However, Klemp then put his
        Damage Control Spin on this incident (lemons into
        lemonade?) as he typically blamed or found fault with
        everyone at the mental health facility except himself.
        Re-read it for yourself and see! Klemp has never taken
        Responsibility for his harsh words, judgments, or negative
        actions and reactions toward others nor has he, ever,
        shown any Empathy, tolerance, or compassion. These
        are virtures and indicators of a higher Love.
        > >
        I challenge ECKists to point out where, in HK's vast
        writings, he has Ever Admitted to having made a Mistake,
        or of Showning Empathy toward others... especially
        to non-ECKists! One can rationalize that it is showing
        "tough love" when involving chelas, but how about
        with others? And No, it's Not Detachment either! It's
        the Catch-22 Mahanta Consciousness Ploy of Denial.
        ECKists are stupid and delusional and in denial to believe
        that everything they are told is true... except when they
        validate it via Imagination and with the use of a "charged
        word!" LOL! As Below So Above and Vice-Versa?!
        > >
        Yes, HK is always pointing the finger and blaming others.
        Klemp went to the 1971 ECK Worldwide instead of to his
        own father's funeral to be with his mother, brothers, and
        sister. Then, HK makes excuses for this insensitive and
        narcissistic behaviour by quoting Jesus, in his year 2000
        "Autobiography," while Talking About having Love for God.
        Then Klemp tells ECKists that they must have a "Loving Heart"
        and be an example for others. What a hypocrite!
        > >
        BTW- Here's what Klemp had to say on Eckankar.org about
        "when" Twitchell first met Rebazar.
        > >
        "Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951 in the foothills of the
        Himalayas near Darjeeling." [Hmmmm. This Darjee(ling) sounds
        like Darji]
        > >
        http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html
        > >
        Therefore, if you believe this crap, Rebazar had from
        1951-1965 to "train" Twitchell for the LEM position.
        > >
        Rebazar, during a time when the World's Consciousness
        was lower, took 14 years to "train" Twitchell.
        > >
        Then, Twitchell had from 1965-1971 to "train" Gross. This
        is only 6 years. Maybe it took "less" time to train Darwin
        because the World's Consciousness, even due to wars, etc.,
        has expanded even more.
        > >
        Gross, then, took 10 years to "train" Klemp. Actually,
        Gross was going to hand the Rod to Klemp in 1980 after
        9 years, but took an extra year to finish Klemp's "training."
        > >
        Here's the score on passing the Rod:
        > >
        RT-PT=14 years
        PT-DG=6 years
        DG-HK=10 years
        HK-??=25 years
        > >
        Does it look like Klemp has, maybe, held onto his Power
        over these EK chelas Way Too Long?
        > >
        [BTW-HK's chelas are those First initiated After Oct. 22, 1981.]
        > >
        It looks like HK (the most advanced Mahanta ever, he claims)
        Should Not have taken more than 15 years to "train" someone,
        and that's giving him a lot of "wiggle" room.
        > >
        > > Prometheus


        mish wrote:
        > > >
        Hi, All!
        > > >
        What Prometheus wrote here reminded me of something
        Klemp wrote in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters." Prometheus
        wrote:
        > > >
        "Isn't it interesting that Klemp, at the 1983 H.I. Meeting,
        said that he would be the LEM/Mahanta for 10 to 20
        years in order to complete his mission. And, HK boasted
        that unlike Darwin he would Let Go of the Rod of ECK
        Power before it burned him and affected his health.
        > > >
        <snipped>
        > > >
        Anyway, Klemp has held onto the Rod of ECK Power
        with a death grip, and has gone way beyond the 20
        years promised to complete his mission (of building
        structures)."
        > > >
        On pages 235-236, in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters,"
        Klemp answered in a chela's dream "the length of his
        service as the Living ECK Master. How long would he
        serve in that position? Were there others in training?"
        > > >
        Klemp wrote, "The Master assured her that a few
        initiates were indeed in training for leadership in ECK,
        but no one was ready yet to assume the responsibility.
        It might take several years or many more for the first
        one to complete all the tests. Accordingly, the Master
        would continue for another cycle as the Mahanta, the
        Living ECK Master. . . . "
        > > >
        Doesn't sound like Klemp is ready to step down yet,
        and that is why I believe after reading what Klemp wrote
        about Joan in his book, that he was setting the stage
        for her elevating to a position of great assistence to
        the godman! I would think that Don Ginn, Peter Skelsky,
        and the other hopeful "candidates" waiting in the wings
        for their chance to grasp the rod of eck power would
        be discouraged after reading Klemp's book. I agree
        that Klemp seems to have a death grip on his power--
        he just can't and won't let go of it! : )
        > > >
        Mish
        > > >
        p.s. Remember that Don Ginn and Peter Skelsky were
        both on the Board of Trustees and helped Klemp to
        boot Darwin. These guys were at least 7th initiates
        25 years ago, so how embarrassing it must be to them that
        it is taking so long for the godman Klemp to train them!
        Either they are slow learners or Klemp is, as we know,
        incompetent and a fraud--Klemp has none of the powers he
        claims! Well, stupidity does abound in eckankar for sure!
        > > >
        > > > ################################
        > > >
        prometheus wrote:
        > > > >
        Hi Mish,
        Excellent post! On the other hand... the more I think
        about it... perhaps Don will take the place of Peter
        Skelsky and Peter will become the next LEM.
        > > > >
        Isn't it interesting that Klemp, at the 1983 H.I. Meeting,
        said that he would be the LEM/Mahanta for 10 to 20
        years in order to complete his mission. And, HK boasted
        that unlike Darwin he would Let Go of the Rod of ECK
        Power before it burned him and affected his health.
        > > > >
        Actually, I didn't see where the "Rod" had "burned" DG
        and, therefore, supposedly affected his health. HK and
        the Board of Trustees are the ones that burned DG!
        > > > >
        Anyway, Klemp has held onto the Rod of ECK Power
        with a death grip, and has gone way beyond the 20
        years promised to complete his mission (of building
        structures).
        > > > >
        What should have been Klemp's mission? Isn't the real
        mission of a Mahanta: To take MORE Souls into the HIGHEST
        Planes of the Sugmad; To do this more directly or FASTER
        than any other religion or spiritual path could; To set
        Souls FREE, thus, they too become MASTERS?!
        > > > >
        Instead, Klemp slowed Initiations down, and told ECKists
        that he would! Why did he Not Speed these up at some
        point? Look at the long-time 7th initiates that have been
        7ths... for 20 plus years! What's with that? Why aren't
        there more 8ths? I know that there are 9ths... including
        Joan! Why the Glass Ceiling for long-time 7ths and former
        RESAs? What does Klemp fear, or is this another effect
        from Not having Let Go (of the Rod) when he should have?!
        > > > >
        Yes, Klemp was burned a long time ago when one looks
        at his EMR problems beginning around 1990. Look at
        his health problems of the last few years! So, I guess
        his reasoning is, still, that his replacement wasn't ready.
        Is that the way things are supposed to work in Eckankar?
        > > > >
        A replacement is ready when the need arises just like
        when the chela is ready the Master will appear. Klemp
        can tell chelas anything at anytime and chelas will accept
        it because if they can't then something must be wrong
        with them. The possibility can never exist that something
        is wrong with Klemp or that he is lying. Yet, didn't HK
        say that Twitchell 'twisted facts?' And, Marman said that
        Twitchell used half-truths while Rich (another ECKist)
        claims that PT plagarized 7% of his works! Didn't DG
        "fall" from Grace? It's obvious that Klemp had fallen long
        ago... circa 1990 perhaps?! The truth does have a bite
        to it at times and this is why people will deny it for as
        long as they can. This is why HK wants ECKists to "imagine"
        that everything is fine with his leadership. The mind is
        very powerful... just look at what it can do when under
        a concentrated focus... like with hypnosis.
        > > > >
        So why do ECKists believe Klemp's version of truth? it's
        because they fear the real truth that he's a fraud. What
        else do they have to believe in? Eckankar is their life...
        their crutch... they think. But there is much more! And
        one can only discover this when they have Let Go...
        Break the Chains and stand in a clear new light as a free
        Soul.
        > > > >
        However, and on the other hand, after the fiasco with
        Darwin one would think that ECKists could handle the
        truth. And, wouldn't Klemp want to show the finances
        to the General Membership in an Annual Report. That
        doesn't happen though does it! Instead, Klemp puts the
        fear of asking questions into chelas because questioning
        his authority on anything will cause a chela to be held back
        on Initiations. Never complain in your IRO or HIRO because
        it will be put into your file at the ESC. "Good" ECKists must
        always practice the "Law of Silence" and "Surrender" their
        ability to think.
        > > > >
        So what's all this mean? It means that most ECKists
        really want to see a change in leadership, but can't say
        so. Klemp hasn't done anything except to create more
        structures and write a ton of worthless books. Why are
        these books worthless? Because the "spiritual" message
        is way too simple, of lower consciousness, and is redundant
        because one can find similar books everywhere and by
        other secular or religious writers. Besides, these books
        of Klemp's are only directed to the uninitiated public or
        to the vast number of simple-minded chelas that don't
        "Get It." These are Klemp's other Money Makers because
        he gets 50% of the royalities!
        > > > >
        ECKists have been duped for a long time and for 25
        years by Klemp! Even this narcissist knows that it has
        to end soon. But why travel to Minneapolis to see the
        new LEM when you've seen them before and will see and
        hear from them more in the future? And, if you're a
        True Blue ECKist, of higher consciousness, you should be
        able to project yourself there, or see it on the Inner. Right!
        > > > >
        Prometheus
        > > > >
        > > > >
        Mish wrote:
        > > > > >
        Hi, Everyone!
        > > > > >
        When I read Klemp's book "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," I
        saw this book as a tool Klemp had created to elevate Joan
        to an eck master, and I still believe that was one of the basic
        purposes of the book. Klemp thinks he can cleverly insert subtle
        ideas that when the reader goes back later, can say, oh, yes,
        it's in there--how could one miss it! LOL! So, it is in "Those
        Wonderful ECK Masters" that Joan appears in some chelas
        dreams doing what eck masters are supposed to do, helping
        chelas to find the mahanta! Also, in the chapter on Kata Daki,
        Klemp explains how more female eck masters are coming out
        to be known--he states it is now time! Again, it is time for
        Joan to be an eck master. . . . Anyway, this is what I saw in
        the book and I still believe that was Klemp's primary motivation
        to write the book when he did. I also believe that Klemp was
        planning to announce some changes in the leadership of
        eckankar, positioning Joan in a bigger role of power so that
        she could "officially" assist him in his declining years as
        master of the universe. Now, I don't have those feelings of
        a big announcement in that regard coming out publicly to
        the chelas soon, if ever! I guess the chelas will have to get it
        on the inner! LOL!
        > > > > >
        Seriously, though, positioning Joan in such a way before the
        chelas would at the very least give her some clout if Klemp
        became disabled or dead. I'm sure Klemp is recalling
        what happened when PT suddenly died and how Gail then
        selected the next L.E.M. mahanta in a dream and then later
        married him! Hey, is Don Ginn married??? : )
        > > > > >
        There are big changes coming in the hierarchial structure
        of the eckankar org--but not sure when it will be announced.
        Maybe Klemp has decided not to appear so frail for the time
        being as he continues his scheming to remain where he is
        in the seat of eck power as long as he can! He's changed his
        course a little bit for now, so I foresee a very boring up-coming
        EWWS! It will be pretty much the same old eckancrap!
        > > > > >
        Chelas, I advise that you save your time and money by staying
        home . . . or if you're truly in the mood to travel, go some
        place fun and warm for a change! : )
        > > > > >
        Mish
        > > > > >
        prometheus_wrote:
        > > > > > >
        Hi All,
        Yes, it seems that Don might be the next LEM while
        Klemp remains the "full" Mahanta. Of course there is,
        still, the possibility that Joan is made the Co-LEM
        (since a female could only share this position, due to
        "their" negative atoms).
        > > > > > >
        As a "junior" and/or Co-LEM (under the guidance &
        supervision of the "full" LEM/Mahanta) Joan could take
        > > > > > > over, even more, duties for her husband at the ESC.
        > > > > > >
        Or, Don can be given these duties as a "junior" LEM while
        Joan continues her role at the ESC while spying on Don for HK!
        > > > > > >
        Anyway, it's a win/win for them right!
        > > > > > >
        I wonder... Would Joan be able to take orders from Don,
        or will she, only, be obeying the Living ECK... Mahanta
        like Marge?

        Prometheus
      • prometheus_973
        IMO-The KAL always wants ECKists to attend the ECK Seminars in order to waste their hard earned Vahana money on travel and hotel expenses versus attending on
        Message 3 of 15 , Oct 16, 2007
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          IMO-The KAL always wants ECKists to attend the
          ECK Seminars in order to waste their hard earned
          Vahana money on travel and hotel expenses versus
          attending on the "Inner."

          Isn't this "inner connection" via Soul Travel the
          "special" attribute that makes Eckankar and ECKists
          different from others and more "spiritually advanced"
          from the other religious herds? So, WHY is it necessary
          to attend on the outer and make a pilgrimage to the
          Temple on the physical versus the higher inner planes,
          especially, for H.I.s?

          WHY is it necessary for H.I.s to even "write" a Monthly
          Initiate Report (IRO/HIRO) IF there is Always/Constantly
          an "inner" communication taking place? WHY do ECK
          H.I.s need this "lower" physical act to demonstrate
          discipline, and to communicate with their 14th initiate
          leader?

          WHY is Klemp attached to Astral Plane emotions,
          and Physical Plane limitations? Afterall, ECKists not
          only have to go through metal detectors for Klemp's
          Saturday night talk (due to his fears), but they have
          to get their inspiration from outer talks and words
          just as other religious followers do!

          So what is it that makes Eckankar "better" than other
          religions? The proof is in the pudding! Just look at these
          ECK H.I.s! Or, better yet, just talk to and listen to them!
          Anyone can memorize an ECK brochure, but what do they
          really say and how do they really behave away from the
          seminar? They're no different from anyone else (for good
          or bad) regardless of initiation level. WHY? Because the
          EK initiations, except for what's printed on paper, don't
          exist in reality. Only the imagination can fulfill the hopes
          and dreams of those who believe. This is WHY and HOW
          religions work for the masses... including ECKists!

          Prometheus




          mish wrote:


          LET'S DISCUSS KLEMP MORE! WHAT'S WRONG WITH
          HIM AND ALL HIS FOIBLES AS A SELF-PROCLAIMED
          GODMAN! IT IS NOT ALL ABOUT TWITCHELL!

          For me, actually, eckankar is just a man-made new
          age religion. Why and what Twitchell did in creating it
          can be debated until the cows come home. Everyone
          interested in this strange little known cult the least
          little bit takes one side or the other in the debate which
          basically comes down to how important or insignificant
          the plagiarisms and lies are to the eckankar teachings.

          Those who remain in eckankar have chosen to miminalize
          the fraud that has taken place and are quite confortable
          to remain in the delusion and illusion of the eck teachings.
          They support Klemp as he continues the lies and deceptions,
          keeping silent as he also molds eckankar to fit his
          narrow-minded, anti-social and narcissistic personality.
          Many eckists become like him which is not something one
          should really strive for! : )

          But to take this to a present day discussion, why do we not,
          meaning eckists and non-eckists alike debate the leadership
          of Klemp??? Klemp has been the mahanta/L.E.M. far longer
          than his predecessors, their years combined. It seems to me
          that we need to look long and hard at what Klemp has done
          and is doing since taking the reins of eckankar and shaping it
          into his creation. To me, what eckankar is today is greatly flawed
          by Klemp's shifty hands! He is no godman--how can anyone
          consider such a silly, nerdy looking and odd speaking man a
          god incarnate? Just looking at him and listening to his stupid
          talks makes the whole org look ridiculous!! He's a joke and
          there's nothing special or original about him! LOL!

          My guess is that many long time eckists are waiting, still
          waiting, for the winds of change to happen--when Klemp
          either steps down or is removed from his throne. I believe
          that many of the true eckists are just waiting for a power
          shift in leadership which they hope will then bring the outer
          org in line with what they are feeling/experiencing on their
          inner! They are hopeful that eckankar will become the
          religion they have longed for! : )

          Klemp must fear these patient chelas very much, and thus, he
          has slowed down the initiations in order to remain in control.
          It seems this is the true reason for being stingy about the
          initiations! Klemp is a stingy and fearful little old man--he
          is no guru or godman! So again I ask, why not discuss Klemp,
          and let Twitchell be for the most part? Let's get to the heart of
          the matter which is what Klemp is doing with eckankar! The
          continuing discussions about how eckankar began and how
          Twitchell established it, speculating on his motivations, etc.
          are all distractions from what needs to be analyzed today--
          that being Harold Klemp and what he has done to eckankar!
          My gut feeling is that Twitchell would not be happy with what
          Harold has done to his creation! LOL!

          BTW, I didn't leave eckankar because of David Lane's book-I
          haven't read it. I left because of Ford Johnson's "Confessions
          of a God Seeker." Many eckists left after becoming aware of
          Ford's book. No need to give Lane all the credit. Others have left
          because they saw through the veil of illusion--they knew
          something wasn't right in belonging to the eck cult and they
          hit the road on their own! There are many reasons and ways
          that one can wake up to the truth about eckankar . . . and get
          out! : )

          Mish
        • prometheus_973
          Does Doug Kunin have a chance at becoming the next LEM? I ve heard that some ESC staffers would like to see someone younger than Don Ginn or Peter Skelsky take
          Message 4 of 15 , Oct 17, 2007
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            Does Doug Kunin have a chance at becoming the next LEM?
            I've heard that some ESC staffers would like to see someone
            younger than Don Ginn or Peter Skelsky take over as Top Dog.
            However, many of the female staffers would like to see Joan
            become the LEM or even Co-LEM! Basically, any action or change
            by Klemp will be seen as positive. However, IF Joan was
            made LEM or Co-LEM this could (possibly) open the door
            for FEMALES to become "FULL" MAHANTAS too!

            The Mahanta can change the old ECK Dogma/rule via Catch-22!
            According to PT's explanation Males have "atoms" that are
            Positive and Females have "atoms" that are Negative and this
            factor is WHY Female ECKists Cannot be a LEM in these Negative
            Worlds of KAL.

            Don't Two Negatives = a Positive?

            Negative Female Atoms existing in the Lower Negative Worlds
            of KAL would seem to have a Positive Effect! Maybe this is WHY
            there are so many wars and so much Negativity! The Male "Positive"
            Atoms are in opposition with the "Negative" Worlds of KAL.

            Therefore, PT and the rest of the Male political & religious leaders
            got it wrong! I wonder... WHY didn't they see this before? Maybe
            they don't want to Let Go of their power over females? It does
            make it convenient for any group... to automatically have control
            over Half of the population!



            Prometheus




            Prometheus wrote:
            >
            > WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO THE MAHANTA CONSCIOUSNESS ???
            > PT Defined It and Klemp Eliminated This Definition! WHY?
            >
            > Twitchell defines "Mahanta Consciousness" in his ECKANKAR
            > Dictionary, but Klemp deletes this reference in the EK Lexicon.
            > Look at Klemp's Lexicon and all one can find is the definition
            > for the "Mahanta" 14th Initiate. I thought the Mahanta Con.
            > was supposed to be more impersonal and intangible.
            >
            > PT: "Mahanta Consciousness - The spiritual leader,
            > or Godman; head of ECK;
            >
            > [ME: Well! That's not impersonal or intangible either!
            > No wonder HK makes a distinction between the "full"
            > 14th initiate LEM/Mahanta versus the 12th or 13th
            > (in training) Mahanta]
            >
            > all those who come to him in the present age have been
            > with him since their advent into the world;
            >
            > [ME: This must be true for DG's initiates too? Shame
            > on you Mr. Klemp for biting the hand that passed you
            > the "ROD!" Afterall, RT chose PT, and RT/PT/GT
            > chose DG, and DG (out of love) handed you the Rod!]
            >
            > the body of the Mahanta is the ECK, which is the essence
            > of God flowing out from the Ocean of Love and Mercy,
            > sustaining all life and tying together all forms;
            >
            > [ME: the definition for "spiritual hierarchy" lists the Mahanta
            > third and after the ECK. Besides, how can the ECK be limited
            > by a number like 14th Plane? Also, the "ANAMI LOK" is where
            > SUGMAD resides and it's the 10th Plane! (pg. 9, EK Lexicon).
            > How can the Mahanta be 14th Plane when Sugmad resides on
            > the 10th Plane?!]
            >
            > the Vi-Guru, the Light Giver; a state of God Consciousness
            > which is beyond the titles given in religions which designate
            > states of consciousness; the highest of all states of consciousness."
            >
            > [ME: Paul had to one-up Radhasoami ("Path of the Masters") and
            > Ruhani Satsang (Kirpal Singh) in order to be "Top Dog". Afterall,
            > you're not going to Buy or Invest in something if it's not the very
            > "Best" and "Fastest" are you?]
            >
            > ******************************************************************
            >
            > Yes, by now (after 25 years) there should be: 33,333 6th EK Initiates;
            > 3,333 7ths; 333 8ths; 33 9ths! Klemp has fallen down on the job
            > and has focused upon building monuments to his ego!
            >
            > Darwin may have been a big spender, but at least he wasn't
            > stingy with initiations, and neither was Paul!
            >
            > So, there will probably be a big buzz at the up and coming
            > 2007 EWWS (not to be confused with the EWS, or ECK Worship
            > Service).
            >
            > ECKists will be talking... is this the Year for a Change in
            > Leadership... Finally!!! Will ECKists have a leader that won't
            > be a simpleton or a nerdy looking recluse and an embarrassment
            > to Vahanas?
            >
            > When comparing HK to GW one has to admit that ANY CHANGE
            > would be for the better... even if HK remains as the "full" (FMOC)
            > master-on-campus!
            >
            > Or, will Klemp disapoint Chelas once again with a new ploy
            > (delay tactic) and new distractions (buildings, books, etc.)?
            >
            > Yes, ECKists will be "challenged" by the I-35 Bridge Collapse
            > and the Airlines reducing plane size and customers flying
            > into Minneapolis, but this just puts them into the same boat
            > as others... it's called life! Therefore this is not a "special"
            > event created by the Kal nor a special circumstance (test)
            > for ECKists alone! WAKE UP ECKIES AND LOOK AROUND AT
            > OTHER PEOPLE... THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS YOUR BELIEF!!!
            >
            > Really, ECKists are vain and live in a bubble! Look around
            > and get out of your shells! Don't limit your thinking to ECK
            > Dogma and to EK religious belief that isolates you from life
            > experiences and having compassion and empathy of others.
            > You are no more "special" than any other Soul... and don't
            > think you're more "advanced" because someone has told
            > you so, or trained you to jump though hoops for initiations!
            >
            > WAKE UP TO THE REAL TRUTH! YOU ARE SPIRITUALLY FREE NOW!
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > mish wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > LET'S DISCUSS KLEMP MORE! WHAT'S WRONG WITH
            > > HIM AND ALL HIS FOIBLES AS A SELF-PROCLAIMED
            > > GODMAN! IT IS NOT ALL ABOUT TWITCHELL!
            > >
            > > For me, actually, eckankar is just a man-made new
            > > age religion. Why and what Twitchell did in creating it
            > > can be debated until the cows come home. Everyone
            > > interested in this strange little known cult the least
            > > little bit takes one side or the other in the debate which
            > > basically comes down to how important or insignificant
            > > the plagiarisms and lies are to the eckankar teachings.
            > > Those who remain in eckankar have chosen to miminalize
            > > the fraud that has taken place and are quite confortable
            > > to remain in the delusion and illusion of the eck teachings.
            > > They support Klemp as he continues the lies and deceptions,
            > > keeping silent as he also molds eckankar to fit his
            > > narrow-minded, anti-social and narcissistic personality.
            > > Many eckists become like him which is not something one
            > > should really strive for! : )
            > >
            > > But to take this to a present day discussion, why do we not,
            > > meaning eckists and non-eckists alike debate the leadership
            > > of Klemp??? Klemp has been the mahanta/L.E.M. far longer
            > > than his predecessors, their years combined. It seems to me
            > > that we need to look long and hard at what Klemp has done
            > > and is doing since taking the reins of eckankar and shaping it
            > > into his creation. To me, what eckankar is today is greatly flawed
            > > by Klemp's shifty hands! He is no godman--how can anyone
            > > consider such a silly, nerdy looking and odd speaking man a
            > > god incarnate? Just looking at him and listening to his stupid
            > > talks makes the whole org look ridiculous!! He's a joke and
            > > there's nothing special or original about him! LOL!
            > >
            > > My guess is that many long time eckists are waiting, still
            > > waiting, for the winds of change to happen--when Klemp
            > > either steps down or is removed from his throne. I believe
            > > that many of the true eckists are just waiting for a power
            > > shift in leadership which they hope will then bring the outer
            > > org in line with what they are feeling/experiencing on their
            > > inner! They are hopeful that eckankar will become the
            > > religion they have longed for! : )
            > >
            > > Klemp must fear these patient chelas very much, and thus, he
            > > has slowed down the initiations in order to remain in control.
            > > It seems this is the true reason for being stingy about the
            > > initiations! Klemp is a stingy and fearful little old man--he
            > > is no guru or godman! So again I ask, why not discuss Klemp,
            > > and let Twitchell be for the most part? Let's get to the heart of
            > > the matter which is what Klemp is doing with eckankar! The
            > > continuing discussions about how eckankar began and how
            > > Twitchell established it, speculating on his motivations, etc.
            > > are all distractions from what needs to be analyzed today--
            > > that being Harold Klemp and what he has done to eckankar!
            > > My gut feeling is that Twitchell would not be happy with what
            > > Harold has done to his creation! LOL!
            > >
            > > BTW, I didn't leave eckankar because of David Lane's book-I
            > > haven't read it. I left because of Ford Johnson's "Confessions
            > > of a God Seeker." Many eckists left after becoming aware of
            > > Ford's book. No need to give Lane all the credit. Others have left
            > > because they saw through the veil of illusion--they knew
            > > something wasn't right in belonging to the eck cult and they
            > > hit the road on their own! There are many reasons and ways
            > > that one can wake up to the truth about eckankar . . . and get
            > > out! : )
            > >
            > > Mish
            > >
            > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
            > > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > I was thinking about what Klemp said about Gross
            > > > holding onto the Rod of ECK Power beyond his time
            > > > and was, therefore, "burned" by it.
            > > >
            > > > If this is true that Gross should have passed the Rod
            > > > to Klemp in 1980 (or to someone else) can Eckists,
            > > > then, really blame Gross (for his actions) anymore than
            > > > they could blame Klemp for slowing their spiritual growth
            > > > (initiations)? What is more important for ECKists? Fiscal
            > > > Responsibility, Buildings, or Initiations? I was, mostly,
            > > > focused on spiritual growth... Initiations!
            > > >
            > > > Actually, Klemp has more blame by hanging onto
            > > > this Power way longer than any 20th Century LEM,
            > > > and for delaying and limiting initiations. There should
            > > > be at least 33 9ths, 333 8ths, and 3,333 7ths after
            > > > 25 years of "leadership." Sure, this would make the org
            > > > very "top heavy" but so what! It should be! Aren't Eckists
            > > > supposed to be the "cream of the crop?" Why then don't
            > > > the initiations reflect this? See, this is just one of
            > > > many reasons why the long-time Eckists want to see
            > > > Klemp step down.
            > > >
            > > > HK restructured the org and moved the headquarters
            > > > in order to have Total Control over the EK Board of
            > > > Trustees. The RESA structure is the extended arm of
            > > > this control.
            > > >
            > > > What were viewed as inappropiate actions by Gross
            > > > were really just the "effects" of hanging onto the Rod
            > > > beyond his time. DG's rationale and thinking was off
            > > > balance and askewed. Consideration and understanding
            > > > are still lacking for this phenomonia of holding onto
            > > > the "Rod" beyond the time the LEM should. Klemp is
            > > > still holding a grudge!
            > > >
            > > > Even today, the RESA police spy on Eckists with informers
            > > > as they ferret out those who are Not supposed to even
            > > > speak Darwin's name! And, let's face it, there will never
            > > > be discussions of the "positive" elements concerning those
            > > > 10 lost years of EK History. This is extremely strange since
            > > > most Higher Initiates (6-14) have most of their initiations
            > > > from those 10 years under Gross!
            > > >
            > > > Klemp's chelas, from Oct. 22, 1981, are mostly 4ths and
            > > > 5ths! Let's face it, according to EK Dogma Chelas, H.I.s
            > > > are Not Established on the SOUL PLANE "until" they have
            > > > become 6ths!
            > > >
            > > > This 6th initiation is the "proof" that they have completed
            > > > all of the trials and tests for the 5th initiation. I wonder
            > > > if this was always the case? Or, did Klemp redefine this
            > > > dogma (with these restrictions) "after" he slowed the
            > > > initiations down?
            > > >
            > > > Therefore, Klemp might want to hold onto his MAHANTA
            > > > position, until, he can get the majority of "his" Chelas to
            > > > the 6th initiation. Maybe this is why he slowed initiations
            > > > down in the first place? Maybe it was used as a ploy, along
            > > > with building structures, to insure that he would need to
            > > > be the LEM and/or Mahanta for 25-30 years or longer!
            > > >
            > > > Yes, Klemp is very selfish and has done ECK Chelas an
            > > > even greater injustice than Gross ever did. Klemp's focus
            > > > has been on the tangible instead of the intangible.
            > > >
            > > > Prometheus
            >
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