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Re: Don Ginn - The Next LEM or President of the Org?

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  • prometheus_973
    Hi Mish, I just read your post. Good one! Yes, it does seem like Klemp is taking an awfully long time to train a replacement. HK s Wonderful book has a
    Message 1 of 15 , Oct 5, 2007
      Hi Mish,
      I just read your post. Good one! Yes, it does seem
      like Klemp is taking an awfully long time to "train"
      a replacement. HK's "Wonderful" book has
      a 2005 copyright and he states it will take him
      "several" more years to train someone! A "few"
      means 3-4 right? Therefore, "several" would be
      4-5 or more right? Or, is Klemp incompetent at
      counting as well? If Klemp is being honest and
      is not trying to blind-side his chelas it would seem
      that his replacement won't be ready until, at least,
      Oct. 22, 2009. However, ECKists must always keep
      in mind the Catch-22 rule!

      However, has Klemp ever really been open, honest,
      or clear about anything? Hmmmmm. The closest
      he came to this was when he had to admit (because
      of it being Public Record) that he was locked-up in
      a mental institution. However, Klemp then put his
      Damage Control Spin on this incident (lemons into
      lemonade?) as he typically blamed or found fault with
      everyone at the mental health facility except himself.
      Re-read it for yourself and see! Klemp has never taken
      Responsibility for his harsh words, judgments, or negative
      actions and reactions toward others nor has he, ever,
      shown any Empathy, tolerance, or compassion. These
      are virtures and indicators of a higher Love.

      I challenge ECKists to point out where, in HK's vast
      writings, he has Ever Admitted to having made a Mistake,
      or of Showning Empathy toward others... especially
      to non-ECKists! One can rationalize that it is showing
      "tough love" when involving chelas, but how about
      with others? And No, it's Not Detachment either! It's
      the Catch-22 Mahanta Consciousness Ploy of Denial.
      ECKists are stupid and delusional to believe that everything
      they are told is true... except when they validate it via
      Imagination and with the use of a "charged word!" LOL!
      As Below So Above and Vice-Versa?!

      Yes, HK is always pointing the finger and blaming others.
      Klemp went to the 1971 ECK Worldwide instead of to his
      own father's funeral to be with his mother, brothers, and
      sister. Then, HK makes excuses for this insensitive and
      narcissistic behaviour by quoting Jesus, in his year 2000
      "Autobiography," while Talking About having Love for God.
      Then Klemp tells ECKists that they must have a "Loving Heart"
      and be an example for others. What a hypocrite!

      BTW- Here's what Klemp had to say on Eckankar.org about
      "when" Twitchell first met Rebazar.

      "Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951 in the foothills of the
      Himalayas near Darjeeling." [Hmmmm. This Darjee(ling) sounds
      like Darji]

      http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html

      Therefore, if you believe this crap, Rebazar had from
      1951-1965 to "train" Twitchell for the LEM position.

      Rebazar, during a time when the World's Consciousness
      was lower, took 14 years to "train" Twitchell.

      Then, Twitchell had from 1965-1971 to "train" Gross. This
      is only 6 years. Maybe it took "less" time to train Darwin
      because the World's Consciousness, even due to wars, etc.,
      has expanded even more.

      Gross, then, took 10 years to "train" Klemp. Actually,
      Gross was going to hand the Rod to Klemp in 1980 after
      9 years, but took an extra year to finish Klemp's "training."

      Here's the score on passing the Rod:

      RT-PT=14 years
      PT-DG=6 years
      DG-HK=10 years
      HK-??=25 years

      Does it look like Klemp has, maybe, held onto his Power
      over these EK chelas Way Too Long?

      [BTW-HK's chelas are those First initiated After Oct. 22, 1981.]

      It looks like HK (the most advanced Mahanta ever, he claims)
      Should Not have taken more than 15 years to "train" someone,
      and that's giving him a lot of "wiggle" room.

      Prometheus




      mish wrote:
      >
      > Hi, All!
      >
      > What Prometheus wrote here reminded me of something
      > Klemp wrote in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters." Prometheus
      > wrote:
      >
      > "Isn't it interesting that Klemp, at the 1983 H.I. Meeting,
      > said that he would be the LEM/Mahanta for 10 to 20
      > years in order to complete his mission. And, HK boasted
      > that unlike Darwin he would Let Go of the Rod of ECK
      > Power before it burned him and affected his health.
      >
      > <snipped>
      >
      > Anyway, Klemp has held onto the Rod of ECK Power
      > with a death grip, and has gone way beyond the 20
      > years promised to complete his mission (of building
      > structures)."
      >
      > On pages 235-236, in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters,"
      > Klemp answered in a chela's dream "the length of his
      > service as the Living ECK Master. How long would he
      > serve in that position? Were there others in training?"
      >
      > Klemp wrote, "The Master assured her that a few
      > initiates were indeed in training for leadership in ECK,
      > but no one was ready yet to assume the responsibility.
      > It might take several years or many more for the first
      > one to complete all the tests. Accordingly, the Master
      > would continue for another cycle as the Mahanta, the
      > Living ECK Master. . . . "
      >
      > Doesn't sound like Klemp is ready to step down yet,
      > and that is why I believe after reading what Klemp wrote
      > about Joan in his book, that he was setting the stage
      > for her elevating to a position of great assistence to
      > the godman! I would think that Don Ginn, Peter Skelsky,
      > and the other hopeful "candidates" waiting in the wings
      > for their chance to grasp the rod of eck power would
      > be discouraged after reading Klemp's book. I agree
      > that Klemp seems to have a death grip on his power--
      > he just can't and won't let go of it! : )
      >
      > Mish
      >
      > p.s. Remember that Don Ginn and Peter Skelsky were
      > both on the Board of Trustees and helped Klemp to
      > boot Darwin. These guys were at least 7th initiates
      > 25 years ago, so how embarrassing it must be to them that
      > it is taking so long for the godman Klemp to train them!
      > Either they are slow learners or Klemp is, as we know,
      > incompetent and a fraud--Klemp has none of the powers he
      > claims! Well, stupidity does abound in eckankar for sure!
      >
      > ################################
      >
      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
      > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Hi Mish,
      > > Excellent post! On the other hand... the more I think
      > > about it... perhaps Don will take the place of Peter
      > > Skelsky and Peter will become the next LEM.
      > >
      > > Isn't it interesting that Klemp, at the 1983 H.I. Meeting,
      > > said that he would be the LEM/Mahanta for 10 to 20
      > > years in order to complete his mission. And, HK boasted
      > > that unlike Darwin he would Let Go of the Rod of ECK
      > > Power before it burned him and affected his health.
      > >
      > > Actually, I didn't see where the "Rod" had "burned" DG
      > > and, therefore, supposedly affected his health. HK and
      > > the Board of Trustees are the ones that burned DG!
      > >
      > > Anyway, Klemp has held onto the Rod of ECK Power
      > > with a death grip, and has gone way beyond the 20
      > > years promised to complete his mission (of building
      > > structures).
      > >
      > > What should have been Klemp's mission? Isn't the real
      > > mission of a Mahanta: To take MORE Souls into the HIGHEST
      > > Planes of the Sugmad; To do this more directly or FASTER
      > > than any other religion or spiritual path could; To set
      > > Souls FREE, thus, they too become MASTERS?!
      > >
      > > Instead, Klemp slowed Initiations down, and told ECKists
      > > that he would! Why did he Not Speed these up at some
      > > point? Look at the long-time 7th initiates that have been
      > > 7ths... for 20 plus years! What's with that? Why aren't
      > > there more 8ths? I know that there are 9ths... including
      > > Joan! Why the Glass Ceiling for long-time 7ths and former
      > > RESAs? What does Klemp fear, or is this another effect
      > > from Not having Let Go (of the Rod) when he should have?!
      > >
      > > Yes, Klemp was burned a long time ago when one looks
      > > at his EMR problems beginning around 1990. Look at
      > > his health problems of the last few years! So, I guess
      > > his reasoning is, still, that his replacement wasn't ready.
      > > Is that the way things are supposed to work in Eckankar?
      > >
      > > A replacement is ready when the need arises just like
      > > when the chela is ready the Master will appear. Klemp
      > > can tell chelas anything at anytime and chelas will accept
      > > it because if they can't then something must be wrong
      > > with them. The possibility can never exist that something
      > > is wrong with Klemp or that he is lying. Yet, didn't HK
      > > say that Twitchell 'twisted facts?' And, Marman said that
      > > Twitchell used half-truths while Rich (another ECKist)
      > > claims that PT plagarized 7% of his works! Didn't DG
      > > "fall" from Grace? It's obvious that Klemp had fallen long
      > > ago... circa 1990 perhaps?! The truth does have a bite
      > > to it at times and this is why people will deny it for as
      > > long as they can. This is why HK wants ECKists to "imagine"
      > > that everything is fine with his leadership. The mind is
      > > very powerful... just look at what it can do when under
      > > a concentrated focus... like with hypnosis.
      > >
      > > So why do ECKists believe Klemp's version of truth? it's
      > > because they fear the real truth that he's a fraud. What
      > > else do they have to believe in? Eckankar is their life...
      > > their crutch... they think. But there is much more! And
      > > one can only discover this when they have Let Go...
      > > Break the Chains and stand in a clear new light as a free
      > > Soul.
      > >
      > > However, and on the other hand, after the fiasco with
      > > Darwin one would think that ECKists could handle the
      > > truth. And, wouldn't Klemp want to show the finances
      > > to the General Membership in an Annual Report. That
      > > doesn't happen though does it! Instead, Klemp puts the
      > > fear of asking questions into chelas because questioning
      > > his authority on anything will cause a chela to be held back
      > > on Initiations. Never complain in your IRO or HIRO because
      > > it will be put into your file at the ESC. "Good" ECKists must
      > > always practice the "Law of Silence" and "Surrender" their
      > > ability to think.
      > >
      > > So what's all this mean? It means that most ECKists
      > > really want to see a change in leadership, but can't say
      > > so. Klemp hasn't done anything except to create more
      > > structures and write a ton of worthless books. Why are
      > > these books worthless? Because the "spiritual" message
      > > is way too simple, of lower consciousness, and is redundant
      > > because one can find similar books everywhere and by
      > > other secular or religious writers. Besides, these books
      > > of Klemp's are only directed to the uninitiated public or
      > > to the vast number of simple-minded chelas that don't
      > > "Get It." These are Klemp's other Money Makers because
      > > he gets 50% of the royalities!
      > >
      > > ECKists have been duped for a long time and for 25
      > > years by Klemp! Even this narcissist knows that it has
      > > to end soon. But why travel to Minneapolis to see the
      > > new LEM when you've seen them before and will see and
      > > hear from them more in the future? And, if you're a
      > > True Blue ECKist, of higher consciousness, you should be
      > > able to project yourself there, or see it on the Inner. Right!
      > >
      > > Prometheus
      > >
      > >
      > > Mish wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Hi, Everyone!
      > > >
      > > > When I read Klemp's book "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," I
      > > > saw this book as a tool Klemp had created to elevate Joan
      > > > to an eck master, and I still believe that was one of the basic
      > > > purposes of the book. Klemp thinks he can cleverly insert subtle
      > > > ideas that when the reader goes back later, can say, oh, yes,
      > > > it's in there--how could one miss it! LOL! So, it is in "Those
      > > > Wonderful ECK Masters" that Joan appears in some chelas
      > > > dreams doing what eck masters are supposed to do, helping
      > > > chelas to find the mahanta! Also, in the chapter on Kata Daki,
      > > > Klemp explains how more female eck masters are coming out
      > > > to be known--he states it is now time! Again, it is time for
      > > > Joan to be an eck master. . . . Anyway, this is what I saw in
      > > > the book and I still believe that was Klemp's primary motivation
      > > > to write the book when he did. I also believe that Klemp was
      > > > planning to announce some changes in the leadership of
      > > > eckankar, positioning Joan in a bigger role of power so that
      > > > she could "officially" assist him in his declining years as
      > > > master of the universe. Now, I don't have those feelings of
      > > > a big announcement in that regard coming out publicly to
      > > > the chelas soon, if ever! I guess the chelas will have to get it
      > > > on the inner! LOL!
      > > >
      > > > Seriously, though, positioning Joan in such a way before the
      > > > chelas would at the very least give her some clout if Klemp
      > > > became disabled or dead. I'm sure Klemp is recalling
      > > > what happened when PT suddenly died and how Gail then
      > > > selected the next L.E.M. mahanta in a dream and then later
      > > > married him! Hey, is Don Ginn married??? : )
      > > >
      > > > There are big changes coming in the hierarchial structure
      > > > of the eckankar org--but not sure when it will be announced.
      > > > Maybe Klemp has decided not to appear so frail for the time
      > > > being as he continues his scheming to remain where he is
      > > > in the seat of eck power as long as he can! He's changed his
      > > > course a little bit for now, so I foresee a very boring up-coming
      > > > EWWS! It will be pretty much the same old eckancrap!
      > > >
      > > > Chelas, I advise that you save your time and money by staying
      > > > home . . . or if you're truly in the mood to travel, go some
      > > > place fun and warm for a change! : )
      > > >
      > > > Mish
      > > >
      > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
      > > > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > Hi All,
      > > > > Yes, it seems that Don might be the next LEM while
      > > > > Klemp remains the "full" Mahanta. Of course there is,
      > > > > still, the possibility that Joan is made the Co-LEM
      > > > > (since a female could only share this position, due to
      > > > > "their" negative atoms).
      > > > >
      > > > > As a "junior" and/or Co-LEM (under the guidance &
      > > > > supervision of the "full" LEM/Mahanta) Joan could take
      > > > > over, even more, duties for her husband at the ESC.
      > > > >
      > > > > Or, Don can be given these duties as a "junior" LEM while
      > > > > Joan continues her role at the ESC while spying on Don
      > > > > for HK!
      > > > >
      > > > > Anyway, it's a win/win for them right!
      > > > >
      > > > > I wonder... Would Joan be able to take orders from Don,
      > > > > or will she, only, be obeying the Living ECK... Mahanta
      > > > > like Marge?
      > > > >
      > > > > Prometheus
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > > mish wrote:
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > Hi, Liz!
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > It seems this attorney was thinking outside of the box! : ) When we
      > > > > > close ourselves off from the outside world by joining a cult like
      > > > > > eckankar, we box ourselves into a small isolated tunnel like place and
      > > > > > can forget the basic things in life like "your family comes first."
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > Mish
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > Liz wrote:
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > Hi Mish and all,
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > I am surprised too that eckankar doesn't go into further detail, explaining
      > > > > > how a will should be written so family members can not contest such a
      > > > > > donation. (or do they?)
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > When I was still a member, my DH and I had wills drawn up through an
      > > > > > attorney I use for family issues. I questioned how a portion could be left
      > > > > > to my church. My attorney gave me a funny look and said "your family should
      > > > > > always come first"! We had an interesting conversation, and in the end I
      > > > > > didn't leave anything to eckankar. ;-) All it takes is discussing
      > > > > > something of this nature with an outsider, and they tend to have a much
      > > > > > better way of putting the important things into perspective.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Liz
      > > > > >
      > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Mish wrote:
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > Here's the exact statement posted by Bob Hepple on the
      > > > > > California Satsang Society Chela News & Events publication
      > > > > > regarding raising money for their building fund:
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > "How can I donate? There are many ways that you can donate.
      > > > > > Enclosed is an envelope and donation form that will allow
      > > > > > you to receive a tax receipt for your check or credit card
      > > > > > donation. Also enclosed are two brochures, published by
      > > > > > ECKANKAR Spiritual Center, that explain how to bequeath
      > > > > > the California Satsang Society in your will or living trust,
      > > > > > or make the Society a beneficiary of your retirement,
      > > > > > pension plan, or life insurance policy."
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > This very plainly states how such cult groups like eckankar go
      > > > > > after members' money.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > <snip>
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Another disturbing thing is how blatantly eckankar goes after
      > > > > > members money including pensions, life insurance and other
      > > > > > money that most people bequeath to surviving family members.
      > > > > > This shows how callous eckankar is regarding family structure
      > > > > > and well-being. Eckankar breaks down family ties in order to
      > > > > > get the family money! But of course that is what all cults are
      > > > > > after--bleeding chelas dry but making them imagine they are
      > > > > > getting something in the bargain, a stairway to heaven, perhaps!
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • prometheus_973
      I was thinking about what Klemp said about Gross holding onto the Rod of ECK Power beyond his time and was, therefore, burned by it. If this is true that
      Message 2 of 15 , Oct 6, 2007
        I was thinking about what Klemp said about Gross
        holding onto the Rod of ECK Power beyond his time
        and was, therefore, "burned" by it.

        If this is true that Gross should have passed the Rod
        to Klemp in 1980 (or to someone else) can Eckists,
        then, really blame Gross (for his actions) anymore than
        they could blame Klemp for slowing their spiritual growth
        (initiations)? What is more important for ECKists? Fiscal
        Responsibility, Buildings, or Initiations? I was, mostly,
        focused on spiritual growth... Initiations!

        Actually, Klemp has more blame by hanging onto
        this Power way longer than any 20th Century LEM,
        and for delaying and limiting initiations. There should
        be at least 33 9ths, 333 8ths, and 3,333 7ths after
        25 years of "leadership." Sure, this would make the org
        very "top heavy" but so what! It should be! Aren't Eckists
        supposed to be the "cream of the crop?" Why then don't
        the initiations reflect this? See, this is just one of
        many reasons why the long-time Eckists want to see
        Klemp step down.

        HK restructured the org and moved the headquarters
        in order to have Total Control over the EK Board of
        Trustees. The RESA structure is the extended arm of
        this control.

        What were viewed as inappropiate actions by Gross
        were really just the "effects" of hanging onto the Rod
        beyond his time. DG's rationale and thinking was off
        balance and askewed. Consideration and understanding
        are still lacking for this phenomonia of holding onto
        the "Rod" beyond the time the LEM should. Klemp is
        still holding a grudge!

        Even today, the RESA police spy on Eckists with informers
        as they ferret out those who are Not supposed to even
        speak Darwin's name! And, let's face it, there will never
        be discussions of the "positive" elements concerning those
        10 lost years of EK History. This is extremely strange since
        most Higher Initiates (6-14) have most of their initiations
        from those 10 years under Gross!

        Klemp's chelas, from Oct. 22, 1981, are mostly 4ths and
        5ths! Let's face it, according to EK Dogma Chelas, H.I.s
        are Not Established on the SOUL PLANE "until" they have
        become 6ths!

        This 6th initiation is the "proof" that they have completed
        all of the trails and tests for the 5th initiation. I wonder
        if this was always the case? Or, did Klemp redefine this
        dogma (with these restrictions) "after" he slowed the
        initiations down?

        Therefore, Klemp might want to hold onto his MAHANTA
        position, until, he can get the majority of "his" Chelas to
        the 6th initiation. Maybe this is why he slowed initiations
        down in the first place? Maybe it was used as a ploy, along
        with building structures, to insure that he would need to
        be the LEM and/or Mahanta for 25-30 years or longer!

        Yes, Klemp is very selfish and has done ECK Chelas an
        even greater injustice than Gross ever did. Klemp's focus
        has been on the tangible instead of the intangible.

        Prometheus

        ***
        Prometheus wrote:
        >
        > Hi Mish,
        > I just read your post. Good one! Yes, it does seem
        > like Klemp is taking an awfully long time to "train"
        > a replacement. HK's "Wonderful" book has
        > a 2005 copyright and he states it will take him
        > "several" more years to train someone! A "few"
        > means 3-4 right? Therefore, "several" would be
        > 4-5 or more right? Or, is Klemp incompetent at
        > counting as well? If Klemp is being honest and
        > is not trying to blind-side his chelas it would seem
        > that his replacement won't be ready until, at least,
        > Oct. 22, 2009. However, ECKists must always keep
        > in mind the Catch-22 rule!
        >
        > However, has Klemp ever really been open, honest,
        > or clear about anything? Hmmmmm. The closest
        > he came to this was when he had to admit (because
        > of it being Public Record) that he was locked-up in
        > a mental institution. However, Klemp then put his
        > Damage Control Spin on this incident (lemons into
        > lemonade?) as he typically blamed or found fault with
        > everyone at the mental health facility except himself.
        > Re-read it for yourself and see! Klemp has never taken
        > Responsibility for his harsh words, judgments, or negative
        > actions and reactions toward others nor has he, ever,
        > shown any Empathy, tolerance, or compassion. These
        > are virtures and indicators of a higher Love.
        >
        > I challenge ECKists to point out where, in HK's vast
        > writings, he has Ever Admitted to having made a Mistake,
        > or of Showning Empathy toward others... especially
        > to non-ECKists! One can rationalize that it is showing
        > "tough love" when involving chelas, but how about
        > with others? And No, it's Not Detachment either! It's
        > the Catch-22 Mahanta Consciousness Ploy of Denial.
        > ECKists are stupid and delusional to believe that everything
        > they are told is true... except when they validate it via
        > Imagination and with the use of a "charged word!" LOL!
        > As Below So Above and Vice-Versa?!
        >
        > Yes, HK is always pointing the finger and blaming others.
        > Klemp went to the 1971 ECK Worldwide instead of to his
        > own father's funeral to be with his mother, brothers, and
        > sister. Then, HK makes excuses for this insensitive and
        > narcissistic behaviour by quoting Jesus, in his year 2000
        > "Autobiography," while Talking About having Love for God.
        > Then Klemp tells ECKists that they must have a "Loving Heart"
        > and be an example for others. What a hypocrite!
        >
        > BTW- Here's what Klemp had to say on Eckankar.org about
        > "when" Twitchell first met Rebazar.
        >
        > "Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951 in the foothills of the
        > Himalayas near Darjeeling." [Hmmmm. This Darjee(ling) sounds
        > like Darji]
        >
        > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html
        >
        > Therefore, if you believe this crap, Rebazar had from
        > 1951-1965 to "train" Twitchell for the LEM position.
        >
        > Rebazar, during a time when the World's Consciousness
        > was lower, took 14 years to "train" Twitchell.
        >
        > Then, Twitchell had from 1965-1971 to "train" Gross. This
        > is only 6 years. Maybe it took "less" time to train Darwin
        > because the World's Consciousness, even due to wars, etc.,
        > has expanded even more.
        >
        > Gross, then, took 10 years to "train" Klemp. Actually,
        > Gross was going to hand the Rod to Klemp in 1980 after
        > 9 years, but took an extra year to finish Klemp's "training."
        >
        > Here's the score on passing the Rod:
        >
        > RT-PT=14 years
        > PT-DG=6 years
        > DG-HK=10 years
        > HK-??=25 years
        >
        > Does it look like Klemp has, maybe, held onto his Power
        > over these EK chelas Way Too Long?
        >
        > [BTW-HK's chelas are those First initiated After Oct. 22, 1981.]
        >
        > It looks like HK (the most advanced Mahanta ever, he claims)
        > Should Not have taken more than 15 years to "train" someone,
        > and that's giving him a lot of "wiggle" room.
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > mish wrote:
        > >
        > > Hi, All!
        > >
        > > What Prometheus wrote here reminded me of something
        > > Klemp wrote in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters." Prometheus
        > > wrote:
        > >
        > > "Isn't it interesting that Klemp, at the 1983 H.I. Meeting,
        > > said that he would be the LEM/Mahanta for 10 to 20
        > > years in order to complete his mission. And, HK boasted
        > > that unlike Darwin he would Let Go of the Rod of ECK
        > > Power before it burned him and affected his health.
        > >
        > > <snipped>
        > >
        > > Anyway, Klemp has held onto the Rod of ECK Power
        > > with a death grip, and has gone way beyond the 20
        > > years promised to complete his mission (of building
        > > structures)."
        > >
        > > On pages 235-236, in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters,"
        > > Klemp answered in a chela's dream "the length of his
        > > service as the Living ECK Master. How long would he
        > > serve in that position? Were there others in training?"
        > >
        > > Klemp wrote, "The Master assured her that a few
        > > initiates were indeed in training for leadership in ECK,
        > > but no one was ready yet to assume the responsibility.
        > > It might take several years or many more for the first
        > > one to complete all the tests. Accordingly, the Master
        > > would continue for another cycle as the Mahanta, the
        > > Living ECK Master. . . . "
        > >
        > > Doesn't sound like Klemp is ready to step down yet,
        > > and that is why I believe after reading what Klemp wrote
        > > about Joan in his book, that he was setting the stage
        > > for her elevating to a position of great assistence to
        > > the godman! I would think that Don Ginn, Peter Skelsky,
        > > and the other hopeful "candidates" waiting in the wings
        > > for their chance to grasp the rod of eck power would
        > > be discouraged after reading Klemp's book. I agree
        > > that Klemp seems to have a death grip on his power--
        > > he just can't and won't let go of it! : )
        > >
        > > Mish
        > >
        > > p.s. Remember that Don Ginn and Peter Skelsky were
        > > both on the Board of Trustees and helped Klemp to
        > > boot Darwin. These guys were at least 7th initiates
        > > 25 years ago, so how embarrassing it must be to them that
        > > it is taking so long for the godman Klemp to train them!
        > > Either they are slow learners or Klemp is, as we know,
        > > incompetent and a fraud--Klemp has none of the powers he
        > > claims! Well, stupidity does abound in eckankar for sure!
        > >
        > > ################################
        > >
        > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
        > > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Hi Mish,
        > > > Excellent post! On the other hand... the more I think
        > > > about it... perhaps Don will take the place of Peter
        > > > Skelsky and Peter will become the next LEM.
        > > >
        > > > Isn't it interesting that Klemp, at the 1983 H.I. Meeting,
        > > > said that he would be the LEM/Mahanta for 10 to 20
        > > > years in order to complete his mission. And, HK boasted
        > > > that unlike Darwin he would Let Go of the Rod of ECK
        > > > Power before it burned him and affected his health.
        > > >
        > > > Actually, I didn't see where the "Rod" had "burned" DG
        > > > and, therefore, supposedly affected his health. HK and
        > > > the Board of Trustees are the ones that burned DG!
        > > >
        > > > Anyway, Klemp has held onto the Rod of ECK Power
        > > > with a death grip, and has gone way beyond the 20
        > > > years promised to complete his mission (of building
        > > > structures).
        > > >
        > > > What should have been Klemp's mission? Isn't the real
        > > > mission of a Mahanta: To take MORE Souls into the HIGHEST
        > > > Planes of the Sugmad; To do this more directly or FASTER
        > > > than any other religion or spiritual path could; To set
        > > > Souls FREE, thus, they too become MASTERS?!
        > > >
        > > > Instead, Klemp slowed Initiations down, and told ECKists
        > > > that he would! Why did he Not Speed these up at some
        > > > point? Look at the long-time 7th initiates that have been
        > > > 7ths... for 20 plus years! What's with that? Why aren't
        > > > there more 8ths? I know that there are 9ths... including
        > > > Joan! Why the Glass Ceiling for long-time 7ths and former
        > > > RESAs? What does Klemp fear, or is this another effect
        > > > from Not having Let Go (of the Rod) when he should have?!
        > > >
        > > > Yes, Klemp was burned a long time ago when one looks
        > > > at his EMR problems beginning around 1990. Look at
        > > > his health problems of the last few years! So, I guess
        > > > his reasoning is, still, that his replacement wasn't ready.
        > > > Is that the way things are supposed to work in Eckankar?
        > > >
        > > > A replacement is ready when the need arises just like
        > > > when the chela is ready the Master will appear. Klemp
        > > > can tell chelas anything at anytime and chelas will accept
        > > > it because if they can't then something must be wrong
        > > > with them. The possibility can never exist that something
        > > > is wrong with Klemp or that he is lying. Yet, didn't HK
        > > > say that Twitchell 'twisted facts?' And, Marman said that
        > > > Twitchell used half-truths while Rich (another ECKist)
        > > > claims that PT plagarized 7% of his works! Didn't DG
        > > > "fall" from Grace? It's obvious that Klemp had fallen long
        > > > ago... circa 1990 perhaps?! The truth does have a bite
        > > > to it at times and this is why people will deny it for as
        > > > long as they can. This is why HK wants ECKists to "imagine"
        > > > that everything is fine with his leadership. The mind is
        > > > very powerful... just look at what it can do when under
        > > > a concentrated focus... like with hypnosis.
        > > >
        > > > So why do ECKists believe Klemp's version of truth? it's
        > > > because they fear the real truth that he's a fraud. What
        > > > else do they have to believe in? Eckankar is their life...
        > > > their crutch... they think. But there is much more! And
        > > > one can only discover this when they have Let Go...
        > > > Break the Chains and stand in a clear new light as a free
        > > > Soul.
        > > >
        > > > However, and on the other hand, after the fiasco with
        > > > Darwin one would think that ECKists could handle the
        > > > truth. And, wouldn't Klemp want to show the finances
        > > > to the General Membership in an Annual Report. That
        > > > doesn't happen though does it! Instead, Klemp puts the
        > > > fear of asking questions into chelas because questioning
        > > > his authority on anything will cause a chela to be held back
        > > > on Initiations. Never complain in your IRO or HIRO because
        > > > it will be put into your file at the ESC. "Good" ECKists must
        > > > always practice the "Law of Silence" and "Surrender" their
        > > > ability to think.
        > > >
        > > > So what's all this mean? It means that most ECKists
        > > > really want to see a change in leadership, but can't say
        > > > so. Klemp hasn't done anything except to create more
        > > > structures and write a ton of worthless books. Why are
        > > > these books worthless? Because the "spiritual" message
        > > > is way too simple, of lower consciousness, and is redundant
        > > > because one can find similar books everywhere and by
        > > > other secular or religious writers. Besides, these books
        > > > of Klemp's are only directed to the uninitiated public or
        > > > to the vast number of simple-minded chelas that don't
        > > > "Get It." These are Klemp's other Money Makers because
        > > > he gets 50% of the royalities!
        > > >
        > > > ECKists have been duped for a long time and for 25
        > > > years by Klemp! Even this narcissist knows that it has
        > > > to end soon. But why travel to Minneapolis to see the
        > > > new LEM when you've seen them before and will see and
        > > > hear from them more in the future? And, if you're a
        > > > True Blue ECKist, of higher consciousness, you should be
        > > > able to project yourself there, or see it on the Inner. Right!
        > > >
        > > > Prometheus
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Mish wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Hi, Everyone!
        > > > >
        > > > > When I read Klemp's book "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," I
        > > > > saw this book as a tool Klemp had created to elevate Joan
        > > > > to an eck master, and I still believe that was one of the basic
        > > > > purposes of the book. Klemp thinks he can cleverly insert subtle
        > > > > ideas that when the reader goes back later, can say, oh, yes,
        > > > > it's in there--how could one miss it! LOL! So, it is in "Those
        > > > > Wonderful ECK Masters" that Joan appears in some chelas
        > > > > dreams doing what eck masters are supposed to do, helping
        > > > > chelas to find the mahanta! Also, in the chapter on Kata Daki,
        > > > > Klemp explains how more female eck masters are coming out
        > > > > to be known--he states it is now time! Again, it is time for
        > > > > Joan to be an eck master. . . . Anyway, this is what I saw in
        > > > > the book and I still believe that was Klemp's primary motivation
        > > > > to write the book when he did. I also believe that Klemp was
        > > > > planning to announce some changes in the leadership of
        > > > > eckankar, positioning Joan in a bigger role of power so that
        > > > > she could "officially" assist him in his declining years as
        > > > > master of the universe. Now, I don't have those feelings of
        > > > > a big announcement in that regard coming out publicly to
        > > > > the chelas soon, if ever! I guess the chelas will have to get it
        > > > > on the inner! LOL!
        > > > >
        > > > > Seriously, though, positioning Joan in such a way before the
        > > > > chelas would at the very least give her some clout if Klemp
        > > > > became disabled or dead. I'm sure Klemp is recalling
        > > > > what happened when PT suddenly died and how Gail then
        > > > > selected the next L.E.M. mahanta in a dream and then later
        > > > > married him! Hey, is Don Ginn married??? : )
        > > > >
        > > > > There are big changes coming in the hierarchial structure
        > > > > of the eckankar org--but not sure when it will be announced.
        > > > > Maybe Klemp has decided not to appear so frail for the time
        > > > > being as he continues his scheming to remain where he is
        > > > > in the seat of eck power as long as he can! He's changed his
        > > > > course a little bit for now, so I foresee a very boring up-coming
        > > > > EWWS! It will be pretty much the same old eckancrap!
        > > > >
        > > > > Chelas, I advise that you save your time and money by staying
        > > > > home . . . or if you're truly in the mood to travel, go some
        > > > > place fun and warm for a change! : )
        > > > >
        > > > > Mish
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
        > > > > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Hi All,
        > > > > > Yes, it seems that Don might be the next LEM while
        > > > > > Klemp remains the "full" Mahanta. Of course there is,
        > > > > > still, the possibility that Joan is made the Co-LEM
        > > > > > (since a female could only share this position, due to
        > > > > > "their" negative atoms).
        > > > > >
        > > > > > As a "junior" and/or Co-LEM (under the guidance &
        > > > > > supervision of the "full" LEM/Mahanta) Joan could take
        > > > > > over, even more, duties for her husband at the ESC.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Or, Don can be given these duties as a "junior" LEM while
        > > > > > Joan continues her role at the ESC while spying on Don
        > > > > > for HK!
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Anyway, it's a win/win for them right!
        > > > > >
        > > > > > I wonder... Would Joan be able to take orders from Don,
        > > > > > or will she, only, be obeying the Living ECK... Mahanta
        > > > > > like Marge?
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Prometheus
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > > mish wrote:
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Hi, Liz!
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > It seems this attorney was thinking outside of the box! : ) When we
        > > > > > > close ourselves off from the outside world by joining a cult like
        > > > > > > eckankar, we box ourselves into a small isolated tunnel like place and
        > > > > > > can forget the basic things in life like "your family comes first."
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Mish
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Liz wrote:
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Hi Mish and all,
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > I am surprised too that eckankar doesn't go into further detail, explaining
        > > > > > > how a will should be written so family members can not contest such a
        > > > > > > donation. (or do they?)
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > When I was still a member, my DH and I had wills drawn up through an
        > > > > > > attorney I use for family issues. I questioned how a portion could be left
        > > > > > > to my church. My attorney gave me a funny look and said "your family
        should
        > > > > > > always come first"! We had an interesting conversation, and in the end I
        > > > > > > didn't leave anything to eckankar. ;-) All it takes is discussing
        > > > > > > something of this nature with an outsider, and they tend to have a much
        > > > > > > better way of putting the important things into perspective.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Liz
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Mish wrote:
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Here's the exact statement posted by Bob Hepple on the
        > > > > > > California Satsang Society Chela News & Events publication
        > > > > > > regarding raising money for their building fund:
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > "How can I donate? There are many ways that you can donate.
        > > > > > > Enclosed is an envelope and donation form that will allow
        > > > > > > you to receive a tax receipt for your check or credit card
        > > > > > > donation. Also enclosed are two brochures, published by
        > > > > > > ECKANKAR Spiritual Center, that explain how to bequeath
        > > > > > > the California Satsang Society in your will or living trust,
        > > > > > > or make the Society a beneficiary of your retirement,
        > > > > > > pension plan, or life insurance policy."
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > This very plainly states how such cult groups like eckankar go
        > > > > > > after members' money.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > <snip>
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Another disturbing thing is how blatantly eckankar goes after
        > > > > > > members money including pensions, life insurance and other
        > > > > > > money that most people bequeath to surviving family members.
        > > > > > > This shows how callous eckankar is regarding family structure
        > > > > > > and well-being. Eckankar breaks down family ties in order to
        > > > > > > get the family money! But of course that is what all cults are
        > > > > > > after--bleeding chelas dry but making them imagine they are
        > > > > > > getting something in the bargain, a stairway to heaven, perhaps!
        > > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • mishmisha9
        LET S DISCUSS KLEMP MORE! WHAT S WRONG WITH HIM AND ALL HIS FOIBLES AS A SELF-PROCLAIMED GODMAN! IT IS NOT ALL ABOUT TWITCHELL! For me, actually, eckankar is
        Message 3 of 15 , Oct 6, 2007
          LET'S DISCUSS KLEMP MORE! WHAT'S WRONG WITH
          HIM AND ALL HIS FOIBLES AS A SELF-PROCLAIMED
          GODMAN! IT IS NOT ALL ABOUT TWITCHELL!

          For me, actually, eckankar is just a man-made new
          age religion. Why and what Twitchell did in creating it
          can be debated until the cows come home. Everyone
          interested in this strange little known cult the least
          little bit takes one side or the other in the debate which
          basically comes down to how important or insignificant
          the plagiarisms and lies are to the eckankar teachings.
          Those who remain in eckankar have chosen to miminalize
          the fraud that has taken place and are quite confortable
          to remain in the delusion and illusion of the eck teachings.
          They support Klemp as he continues the lies and deceptions,
          keeping silent as he also molds eckankar to fit his
          narrow-minded, anti-social and narcissistic personality.
          Many eckists become like him which is not something one
          should really strive for! : )

          But to take this to a present day discussion, why do we not,
          meaning eckists and non-eckists alike debate the leadership
          of Klemp??? Klemp has been the mahanta/L.E.M. far longer
          than his predecessors, their years combined. It seems to me
          that we need to look long and hard at what Klemp has done
          and is doing since taking the reins of eckankar and shaping it
          into his creation. To me, what eckankar is today is greatly flawed
          by Klemp's shifty hands! He is no godman--how can anyone
          consider such a silly, nerdy looking and odd speaking man a
          god incarnate? Just looking at him and listening to his stupid
          talks makes the whole org look ridiculous!! He's a joke and
          there's nothing special or original about him! LOL!

          My guess is that many long time eckists are waiting, still
          waiting, for the winds of change to happen--when Klemp
          either steps down or is removed from his throne. I believe
          that many of the true eckists are just waiting for a power
          shift in leadership which they hope will then bring the outer
          org in line with what they are feeling/experiencing on their
          inner! They are hopeful that eckankar will become the
          religion they have longed for! : )

          Klemp must fear these patient chelas very much, and thus, he
          has slowed down the initiations in order to remain in control.
          It seems this is the true reason for being stingy about the
          initiations! Klemp is a stingy and fearful little old man--he
          is no guru or godman! So again I ask, why not discuss Klemp,
          and let Twitchell be for the most part? Let's get to the heart of
          the matter which is what Klemp is doing with eckankar! The
          continuing discussions about how eckankar began and how
          Twitchell established it, speculating on his motivations, etc.
          are all distractions from what needs to be analyzed today--
          that being Harold Klemp and what he has done to eckankar!
          My gut feeling is that Twitchell would not be happy with what
          Harold has done to his creation! LOL!

          BTW, I didn't leave eckankar because of David Lane's book-I
          haven't read it. I left because of Ford Johnson's "Confessions
          of a God Seeker." Many eckists left after becoming aware of
          Ford's book. No need to give Lane all the credit. Others have left
          because they saw through the veil of illusion--they knew
          something wasn't right in belonging to the eck cult and they
          hit the road on their own! There are many reasons and ways
          that one can wake up to the truth about eckankar . . . and get
          out! : )

          Mish

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
          "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
          >
          > I was thinking about what Klemp said about Gross
          > holding onto the Rod of ECK Power beyond his time
          > and was, therefore, "burned" by it.
          >
          > If this is true that Gross should have passed the Rod
          > to Klemp in 1980 (or to someone else) can Eckists,
          > then, really blame Gross (for his actions) anymore than
          > they could blame Klemp for slowing their spiritual growth
          > (initiations)? What is more important for ECKists? Fiscal
          > Responsibility, Buildings, or Initiations? I was, mostly,
          > focused on spiritual growth... Initiations!
          >
          > Actually, Klemp has more blame by hanging onto
          > this Power way longer than any 20th Century LEM,
          > and for delaying and limiting initiations. There should
          > be at least 33 9ths, 333 8ths, and 3,333 7ths after
          > 25 years of "leadership." Sure, this would make the org
          > very "top heavy" but so what! It should be! Aren't Eckists
          > supposed to be the "cream of the crop?" Why then don't
          > the initiations reflect this? See, this is just one of
          > many reasons why the long-time Eckists want to see
          > Klemp step down.
          >
          > HK restructured the org and moved the headquarters
          > in order to have Total Control over the EK Board of
          > Trustees. The RESA structure is the extended arm of
          > this control.
          >
          > What were viewed as inappropiate actions by Gross
          > were really just the "effects" of hanging onto the Rod
          > beyond his time. DG's rationale and thinking was off
          > balance and askewed. Consideration and understanding
          > are still lacking for this phenomonia of holding onto
          > the "Rod" beyond the time the LEM should. Klemp is
          > still holding a grudge!
          >
          > Even today, the RESA police spy on Eckists with informers
          > as they ferret out those who are Not supposed to even
          > speak Darwin's name! And, let's face it, there will never
          > be discussions of the "positive" elements concerning those
          > 10 lost years of EK History. This is extremely strange since
          > most Higher Initiates (6-14) have most of their initiations
          > from those 10 years under Gross!
          >
          > Klemp's chelas, from Oct. 22, 1981, are mostly 4ths and
          > 5ths! Let's face it, according to EK Dogma Chelas, H.I.s
          > are Not Established on the SOUL PLANE "until" they have
          > become 6ths!
          >
          > This 6th initiation is the "proof" that they have completed
          > all of the trails and tests for the 5th initiation. I wonder
          > if this was always the case? Or, did Klemp redefine this
          > dogma (with these restrictions) "after" he slowed the
          > initiations down?
          >
          > Therefore, Klemp might want to hold onto his MAHANTA
          > position, until, he can get the majority of "his" Chelas to
          > the 6th initiation. Maybe this is why he slowed initiations
          > down in the first place? Maybe it was used as a ploy, along
          > with building structures, to insure that he would need to
          > be the LEM and/or Mahanta for 25-30 years or longer!
          >
          > Yes, Klemp is very selfish and has done ECK Chelas an
          > even greater injustice than Gross ever did. Klemp's focus
          > has been on the tangible instead of the intangible.
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          > ***
          > Prometheus wrote:
          > >
          > > Hi Mish,
          > > I just read your post. Good one! Yes, it does seem
          > > like Klemp is taking an awfully long time to "train"
          > > a replacement. HK's "Wonderful" book has
          > > a 2005 copyright and he states it will take him
          > > "several" more years to train someone! A "few"
          > > means 3-4 right? Therefore, "several" would be
          > > 4-5 or more right? Or, is Klemp incompetent at
          > > counting as well? If Klemp is being honest and
          > > is not trying to blind-side his chelas it would seem
          > > that his replacement won't be ready until, at least,
          > > Oct. 22, 2009. However, ECKists must always keep
          > > in mind the Catch-22 rule!
          > >
          > > However, has Klemp ever really been open, honest,
          > > or clear about anything? Hmmmmm. The closest
          > > he came to this was when he had to admit (because
          > > of it being Public Record) that he was locked-up in
          > > a mental institution. However, Klemp then put his
          > > Damage Control Spin on this incident (lemons into
          > > lemonade?) as he typically blamed or found fault with
          > > everyone at the mental health facility except himself.
          > > Re-read it for yourself and see! Klemp has never taken
          > > Responsibility for his harsh words, judgments, or negative
          > > actions and reactions toward others nor has he, ever,
          > > shown any Empathy, tolerance, or compassion. These
          > > are virtures and indicators of a higher Love.
          > >
          > > I challenge ECKists to point out where, in HK's vast
          > > writings, he has Ever Admitted to having made a Mistake,
          > > or of Showning Empathy toward others... especially
          > > to non-ECKists! One can rationalize that it is showing
          > > "tough love" when involving chelas, but how about
          > > with others? And No, it's Not Detachment either! It's
          > > the Catch-22 Mahanta Consciousness Ploy of Denial.
          > > ECKists are stupid and delusional to believe that everything
          > > they are told is true... except when they validate it via
          > > Imagination and with the use of a "charged word!" LOL!
          > > As Below So Above and Vice-Versa?!
          > >
          > > Yes, HK is always pointing the finger and blaming others.
          > > Klemp went to the 1971 ECK Worldwide instead of to his
          > > own father's funeral to be with his mother, brothers, and
          > > sister. Then, HK makes excuses for this insensitive and
          > > narcissistic behaviour by quoting Jesus, in his year 2000
          > > "Autobiography," while Talking About having Love for God.
          > > Then Klemp tells ECKists that they must have a "Loving Heart"
          > > and be an example for others. What a hypocrite!
          > >
          > > BTW- Here's what Klemp had to say on Eckankar.org about
          > > "when" Twitchell first met Rebazar.
          > >
          > > "Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951 in the foothills of the
          > > Himalayas near Darjeeling." [Hmmmm. This Darjee(ling) sounds
          > > like Darji]
          > >
          > > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html
          > >
          > > Therefore, if you believe this crap, Rebazar had from
          > > 1951-1965 to "train" Twitchell for the LEM position.
          > >
          > > Rebazar, during a time when the World's Consciousness
          > > was lower, took 14 years to "train" Twitchell.
          > >
          > > Then, Twitchell had from 1965-1971 to "train" Gross. This
          > > is only 6 years. Maybe it took "less" time to train Darwin
          > > because the World's Consciousness, even due to wars, etc.,
          > > has expanded even more.
          > >
          > > Gross, then, took 10 years to "train" Klemp. Actually,
          > > Gross was going to hand the Rod to Klemp in 1980 after
          > > 9 years, but took an extra year to finish Klemp's "training."
          > >
          > > Here's the score on passing the Rod:
          > >
          > > RT-PT=14 years
          > > PT-DG=6 years
          > > DG-HK=10 years
          > > HK-??=25 years
          > >
          > > Does it look like Klemp has, maybe, held onto his Power
          > > over these EK chelas Way Too Long?
          > >
          > > [BTW-HK's chelas are those First initiated After Oct. 22, 1981.]
          > >
          > > It looks like HK (the most advanced Mahanta ever, he claims)
          > > Should Not have taken more than 15 years to "train" someone,
          > > and that's giving him a lot of "wiggle" room.
          > >
          > > Prometheus
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > mish wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Hi, All!
          > > >
          > > > What Prometheus wrote here reminded me of something
          > > > Klemp wrote in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters." Prometheus
          > > > wrote:
          > > >
          > > > "Isn't it interesting that Klemp, at the 1983 H.I. Meeting,
          > > > said that he would be the LEM/Mahanta for 10 to 20
          > > > years in order to complete his mission. And, HK boasted
          > > > that unlike Darwin he would Let Go of the Rod of ECK
          > > > Power before it burned him and affected his health.
          > > >
          > > > <snipped>
          > > >
          > > > Anyway, Klemp has held onto the Rod of ECK Power
          > > > with a death grip, and has gone way beyond the 20
          > > > years promised to complete his mission (of building
          > > > structures)."
          > > >
          > > > On pages 235-236, in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters,"
          > > > Klemp answered in a chela's dream "the length of his
          > > > service as the Living ECK Master. How long would he
          > > > serve in that position? Were there others in training?"
          > > >
          > > > Klemp wrote, "The Master assured her that a few
          > > > initiates were indeed in training for leadership in ECK,
          > > > but no one was ready yet to assume the responsibility.
          > > > It might take several years or many more for the first
          > > > one to complete all the tests. Accordingly, the Master
          > > > would continue for another cycle as the Mahanta, the
          > > > Living ECK Master. . . . "
          > > >
          > > > Doesn't sound like Klemp is ready to step down yet,
          > > > and that is why I believe after reading what Klemp wrote
          > > > about Joan in his book, that he was setting the stage
          > > > for her elevating to a position of great assistence to
          > > > the godman! I would think that Don Ginn, Peter Skelsky,
          > > > and the other hopeful "candidates" waiting in the wings
          > > > for their chance to grasp the rod of eck power would
          > > > be discouraged after reading Klemp's book. I agree
          > > > that Klemp seems to have a death grip on his power--
          > > > he just can't and won't let go of it! : )
          > > >
          > > > Mish
          > > >
          > > > p.s. Remember that Don Ginn and Peter Skelsky were
          > > > both on the Board of Trustees and helped Klemp to
          > > > boot Darwin. These guys were at least 7th initiates
          > > > 25 years ago, so how embarrassing it must be to them that
          > > > it is taking so long for the godman Klemp to train them!
          > > > Either they are slow learners or Klemp is, as we know,
          > > > incompetent and a fraud--Klemp has none of the powers he
          > > > claims! Well, stupidity does abound in eckankar for sure!
          > > >
          > > > ################################
          > > >
          > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
          > > > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > Hi Mish,
          > > > > Excellent post! On the other hand... the more I think
          > > > > about it... perhaps Don will take the place of Peter
          > > > > Skelsky and Peter will become the next LEM.
          > > > >
          > > > > Isn't it interesting that Klemp, at the 1983 H.I. Meeting,
          > > > > said that he would be the LEM/Mahanta for 10 to 20
          > > > > years in order to complete his mission. And, HK boasted
          > > > > that unlike Darwin he would Let Go of the Rod of ECK
          > > > > Power before it burned him and affected his health.
          > > > >
          > > > > Actually, I didn't see where the "Rod" had "burned" DG
          > > > > and, therefore, supposedly affected his health. HK and
          > > > > the Board of Trustees are the ones that burned DG!
          > > > >
          > > > > Anyway, Klemp has held onto the Rod of ECK Power
          > > > > with a death grip, and has gone way beyond the 20
          > > > > years promised to complete his mission (of building
          > > > > structures).
          > > > >
          > > > > What should have been Klemp's mission? Isn't the real
          > > > > mission of a Mahanta: To take MORE Souls into the HIGHEST
          > > > > Planes of the Sugmad; To do this more directly or FASTER
          > > > > than any other religion or spiritual path could; To set
          > > > > Souls FREE, thus, they too become MASTERS?!
          > > > >
          > > > > Instead, Klemp slowed Initiations down, and told ECKists
          > > > > that he would! Why did he Not Speed these up at some
          > > > > point? Look at the long-time 7th initiates that have been
          > > > > 7ths... for 20 plus years! What's with that? Why aren't
          > > > > there more 8ths? I know that there are 9ths... including
          > > > > Joan! Why the Glass Ceiling for long-time 7ths and former
          > > > > RESAs? What does Klemp fear, or is this another effect
          > > > > from Not having Let Go (of the Rod) when he should have?!
          > > > >
          > > > > Yes, Klemp was burned a long time ago when one looks
          > > > > at his EMR problems beginning around 1990. Look at
          > > > > his health problems of the last few years! So, I guess
          > > > > his reasoning is, still, that his replacement wasn't ready.
          > > > > Is that the way things are supposed to work in Eckankar?
          > > > >
          > > > > A replacement is ready when the need arises just like
          > > > > when the chela is ready the Master will appear. Klemp
          > > > > can tell chelas anything at anytime and chelas will accept
          > > > > it because if they can't then something must be wrong
          > > > > with them. The possibility can never exist that something
          > > > > is wrong with Klemp or that he is lying. Yet, didn't HK
          > > > > say that Twitchell 'twisted facts?' And, Marman said that
          > > > > Twitchell used half-truths while Rich (another ECKist)
          > > > > claims that PT plagarized 7% of his works! Didn't DG
          > > > > "fall" from Grace? It's obvious that Klemp had fallen long
          > > > > ago... circa 1990 perhaps?! The truth does have a bite
          > > > > to it at times and this is why people will deny it for as
          > > > > long as they can. This is why HK wants ECKists to "imagine"
          > > > > that everything is fine with his leadership. The mind is
          > > > > very powerful... just look at what it can do when under
          > > > > a concentrated focus... like with hypnosis.
          > > > >
          > > > > So why do ECKists believe Klemp's version of truth? it's
          > > > > because they fear the real truth that he's a fraud. What
          > > > > else do they have to believe in? Eckankar is their life...
          > > > > their crutch... they think. But there is much more! And
          > > > > one can only discover this when they have Let Go...
          > > > > Break the Chains and stand in a clear new light as a free
          > > > > Soul.
          > > > >
          > > > > However, and on the other hand, after the fiasco with
          > > > > Darwin one would think that ECKists could handle the
          > > > > truth. And, wouldn't Klemp want to show the finances
          > > > > to the General Membership in an Annual Report. That
          > > > > doesn't happen though does it! Instead, Klemp puts the
          > > > > fear of asking questions into chelas because questioning
          > > > > his authority on anything will cause a chela to be held back
          > > > > on Initiations. Never complain in your IRO or HIRO because
          > > > > it will be put into your file at the ESC. "Good" ECKists must
          > > > > always practice the "Law of Silence" and "Surrender" their
          > > > > ability to think.
          > > > >
          > > > > So what's all this mean? It means that most ECKists
          > > > > really want to see a change in leadership, but can't say
          > > > > so. Klemp hasn't done anything except to create more
          > > > > structures and write a ton of worthless books. Why are
          > > > > these books worthless? Because the "spiritual" message
          > > > > is way too simple, of lower consciousness, and is redundant
          > > > > because one can find similar books everywhere and by
          > > > > other secular or religious writers. Besides, these books
          > > > > of Klemp's are only directed to the uninitiated public or
          > > > > to the vast number of simple-minded chelas that don't
          > > > > "Get It." These are Klemp's other Money Makers because
          > > > > he gets 50% of the royalities!
          > > > >
          > > > > ECKists have been duped for a long time and for 25
          > > > > years by Klemp! Even this narcissist knows that it has
          > > > > to end soon. But why travel to Minneapolis to see the
          > > > > new LEM when you've seen them before and will see and
          > > > > hear from them more in the future? And, if you're a
          > > > > True Blue ECKist, of higher consciousness, you should be
          > > > > able to project yourself there, or see it on the Inner. Right!
          > > > >
          > > > > Prometheus
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Mish wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Hi, Everyone!
          > > > > >
          > > > > > When I read Klemp's book "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," I
          > > > > > saw this book as a tool Klemp had created to elevate Joan
          > > > > > to an eck master, and I still believe that was one of the basic
          > > > > > purposes of the book. Klemp thinks he can cleverly insert subtle
          > > > > > ideas that when the reader goes back later, can say, oh, yes,
          > > > > > it's in there--how could one miss it! LOL! So, it is in "Those
          > > > > > Wonderful ECK Masters" that Joan appears in some chelas
          > > > > > dreams doing what eck masters are supposed to do, helping
          > > > > > chelas to find the mahanta! Also, in the chapter on Kata Daki,
          > > > > > Klemp explains how more female eck masters are coming out
          > > > > > to be known--he states it is now time! Again, it is time for
          > > > > > Joan to be an eck master. . . . Anyway, this is what I saw in
          > > > > > the book and I still believe that was Klemp's primary motivation
          > > > > > to write the book when he did. I also believe that Klemp was
          > > > > > planning to announce some changes in the leadership of
          > > > > > eckankar, positioning Joan in a bigger role of power so that
          > > > > > she could "officially" assist him in his declining years as
          > > > > > master of the universe. Now, I don't have those feelings of
          > > > > > a big announcement in that regard coming out publicly to
          > > > > > the chelas soon, if ever! I guess the chelas will have to get it
          > > > > > on the inner! LOL!
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Seriously, though, positioning Joan in such a way before the
          > > > > > chelas would at the very least give her some clout if Klemp
          > > > > > became disabled or dead. I'm sure Klemp is recalling
          > > > > > what happened when PT suddenly died and how Gail then
          > > > > > selected the next L.E.M. mahanta in a dream and then later
          > > > > > married him! Hey, is Don Ginn married??? : )
          > > > > >
          > > > > > There are big changes coming in the hierarchial structure
          > > > > > of the eckankar org--but not sure when it will be announced.
          > > > > > Maybe Klemp has decided not to appear so frail for the time
          > > > > > being as he continues his scheming to remain where he is
          > > > > > in the seat of eck power as long as he can! He's changed his
          > > > > > course a little bit for now, so I foresee a very boring up-coming
          > > > > > EWWS! It will be pretty much the same old eckancrap!
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Chelas, I advise that you save your time and money by staying
          > > > > > home . . . or if you're truly in the mood to travel, go some
          > > > > > place fun and warm for a change! : )
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Mish
          > > > > >
          > > > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
          > > > > > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Hi All,
          > > > > > > Yes, it seems that Don might be the next LEM while
          > > > > > > Klemp remains the "full" Mahanta. Of course there is,
          > > > > > > still, the possibility that Joan is made the Co-LEM
          > > > > > > (since a female could only share this position, due to
          > > > > > > "their" negative atoms).
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > As a "junior" and/or Co-LEM (under the guidance &
          > > > > > > supervision of the "full" LEM/Mahanta) Joan could take
          > > > > > > over, even more, duties for her husband at the ESC.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Or, Don can be given these duties as a "junior" LEM while
          > > > > > > Joan continues her role at the ESC while spying on Don
          > > > > > > for HK!
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Anyway, it's a win/win for them right!
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > I wonder... Would Joan be able to take orders from Don,
          > > > > > > or will she, only, be obeying the Living ECK... Mahanta
          > > > > > > like Marge?
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Prometheus
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > mish wrote:
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > Hi, Liz!
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > It seems this attorney was thinking outside of the box! : ) When we
          > > > > > > > close ourselves off from the outside world by joining a cult like
          > > > > > > > eckankar, we box ourselves into a small isolated tunnel like place and
          > > > > > > > can forget the basic things in life like "your family comes first."
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > Mish
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > Liz wrote:
          > > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > Hi Mish and all,
          > > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > I am surprised too that eckankar doesn't go into further detail, explaining
          > > > > > > > how a will should be written so family members can not contest such a
          > > > > > > > donation. (or do they?)
          > > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > When I was still a member, my DH and I had wills drawn up through an
          > > > > > > > attorney I use for family issues. I questioned how a portion could be left
          > > > > > > > to my church. My attorney gave me a funny look and said "your family
          > should
          > > > > > > > always come first"! We had an interesting conversation, and in the end I
          > > > > > > > didn't leave anything to eckankar. ;-) All it takes is discussing
          > > > > > > > something of this nature with an outsider, and they tend to have a much
          > > > > > > > better way of putting the important things into perspective.
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > Liz
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > Mish wrote:
          > > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > Here's the exact statement posted by Bob Hepple on the
          > > > > > > > California Satsang Society Chela News & Events publication
          > > > > > > > regarding raising money for their building fund:
          > > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > "How can I donate? There are many ways that you can donate.
          > > > > > > > Enclosed is an envelope and donation form that will allow
          > > > > > > > you to receive a tax receipt for your check or credit card
          > > > > > > > donation. Also enclosed are two brochures, published by
          > > > > > > > ECKANKAR Spiritual Center, that explain how to bequeath
          > > > > > > > the California Satsang Society in your will or living trust,
          > > > > > > > or make the Society a beneficiary of your retirement,
          > > > > > > > pension plan, or life insurance policy."
          > > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > This very plainly states how such cult groups like eckankar go
          > > > > > > > after members' money.
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > <snip>
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > Another disturbing thing is how blatantly eckankar goes after
          > > > > > > > members money including pensions, life insurance and other
          > > > > > > > money that most people bequeath to surviving family members.
          > > > > > > > This shows how callous eckankar is regarding family structure
          > > > > > > > and well-being. Eckankar breaks down family ties in order to
          > > > > > > > get the family money! But of course that is what all cults are
          > > > > > > > after--bleeding chelas dry but making them imagine they are
          > > > > > > > getting something in the bargain, a stairway to heaven, perhaps!
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • prometheus_973
          WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO THE MAHANTA CONSCIOUSNESS ??? PT Defined It and Klemp Eliminated This Definition! WHY? Twitchell defines Mahanta Consciousness in his
          Message 4 of 15 , Oct 7, 2007
            WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO THE MAHANTA CONSCIOUSNESS ???
            PT Defined It and Klemp Eliminated This Definition! WHY?

            Twitchell defines "Mahanta Consciousness" in his ECKANKAR
            Dictionary, but Klemp deletes this reference in the EK Lexicon.
            Look at Klemp's Lexicon and all one can find is the definition
            for the "Mahanta" 14th Initiate. I thought the Mahanta Con.
            was supposed to be more impersonal and intangible.

            PT: "Mahanta Consciousness - The spiritual leader,
            or Godman; head of ECK;

            [ME: Well! That's not impersonal or intangible either!
            No wonder HK makes a distinction between the "full"
            14th initiate LEM/Mahanta versus the 12th or 13th
            (in training) Mahanta]

            all those who come to him in the present age have been
            with him since their advent into the world;

            [ME: This must be true for DG's initiates too? Shame
            on you Mr. Klemp for biting the hand that passed you
            the "ROD!" Afterall, RT chose PT, and RT/PT/GT
            chose DG, and DG (out of love) handed you the Rod!]

            the body of the Mahanta is the ECK, which is the essence
            of God flowing out from the Ocean of Love and Mercy,
            sustaining all life and tying together all forms;

            [ME: the definition for "spiritual hierarchy" lists the Mahanta
            third and after the ECK. Besides, how can the ECK be limited
            by a number like 14th Plane? Also, the "ANAMI LOK" is where
            SUGMAD resides and it's the 10th Plane! (pg. 9, EK Lexicon).
            How can the Mahanta be 14th Plane when Sugmad resides on
            the 10th Plane?!]

            the Vi-Guru, the Light Giver; a state of God Consciousness
            which is beyond the titles given in religions which designate
            states of consciousness; the highest of all states of consciousness."

            [ME: Paul had to one-up Radhasoami ("Path of the Masters") and
            Ruhani Satsang (Kirpal Singh) in order to be "Top Dog". Afterall,
            you're not going to Buy or Invest in something if it's not the very
            "Best" and "Fastest" are you?]

            ******************************************************************

            Yes, by now (after 25 years) there should be: 33,333 6th EK Initiates;
            3,333 7ths; 333 8ths; 33 9ths! Klemp has fallen down on the job
            and has focused upon building monuments to his ego!

            Darwin may have been a big spender, but at least he wasn't
            stingy with initiations, and neither was Paul!

            So, there will probably be a big buzz at the up and coming
            2007 EWWS (not to be confused with the EWS, or ECK Worship
            Service).

            ECKists will be talking... is this the Year for a Change in
            Leadership... Finally!!! Will ECKists have a leader that won't
            be a simpleton or a nerdy looking recluse and an embarrassment
            to Vahanas?

            When comparing HK to GW one has to admit that ANY CHANGE
            would be for the better... even if HK remains as the "full" (FMOC)
            master-on-campus!

            Or, will Klemp disapoint Chelas once again with a new ploy
            (delay tactic) and new distractions (buildings, books, etc.)?

            Yes, ECKists will be "challenged" by the I-35 Bridge Collapse
            and the Airlines reducing plane size and customers flying
            into Minneapolis, but this just puts them into the same boat
            as others... it's called life! Therefore this is not a "special"
            event created by the Kal nor a special circumstance (test)
            for ECKists alone! WAKE UP ECKIES AND LOOK AROUND AT
            OTHER PEOPLE... THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS YOUR BELIEF!!!

            Really, ECKists are vain and live in a bubble! Look around
            and get out of your shells! Don't limit your thinking to ECK
            Dogma and to EK religious belief that isolates you from life
            experiences and having compassion and empathy of others.
            You are no more "special" than any other Soul... and don't
            think you're more "advanced" because someone has told
            you so, or trained you to jump though hoops for initiations!

            WAKE UP TO THE REAL TRUTH! YOU ARE SPIRITUALLY FREE NOW!

            Prometheus








            mish wrote:
            >
            >
            > LET'S DISCUSS KLEMP MORE! WHAT'S WRONG WITH
            > HIM AND ALL HIS FOIBLES AS A SELF-PROCLAIMED
            > GODMAN! IT IS NOT ALL ABOUT TWITCHELL!
            >
            > For me, actually, eckankar is just a man-made new
            > age religion. Why and what Twitchell did in creating it
            > can be debated until the cows come home. Everyone
            > interested in this strange little known cult the least
            > little bit takes one side or the other in the debate which
            > basically comes down to how important or insignificant
            > the plagiarisms and lies are to the eckankar teachings.
            > Those who remain in eckankar have chosen to miminalize
            > the fraud that has taken place and are quite confortable
            > to remain in the delusion and illusion of the eck teachings.
            > They support Klemp as he continues the lies and deceptions,
            > keeping silent as he also molds eckankar to fit his
            > narrow-minded, anti-social and narcissistic personality.
            > Many eckists become like him which is not something one
            > should really strive for! : )
            >
            > But to take this to a present day discussion, why do we not,
            > meaning eckists and non-eckists alike debate the leadership
            > of Klemp??? Klemp has been the mahanta/L.E.M. far longer
            > than his predecessors, their years combined. It seems to me
            > that we need to look long and hard at what Klemp has done
            > and is doing since taking the reins of eckankar and shaping it
            > into his creation. To me, what eckankar is today is greatly flawed
            > by Klemp's shifty hands! He is no godman--how can anyone
            > consider such a silly, nerdy looking and odd speaking man a
            > god incarnate? Just looking at him and listening to his stupid
            > talks makes the whole org look ridiculous!! He's a joke and
            > there's nothing special or original about him! LOL!
            >
            > My guess is that many long time eckists are waiting, still
            > waiting, for the winds of change to happen--when Klemp
            > either steps down or is removed from his throne. I believe
            > that many of the true eckists are just waiting for a power
            > shift in leadership which they hope will then bring the outer
            > org in line with what they are feeling/experiencing on their
            > inner! They are hopeful that eckankar will become the
            > religion they have longed for! : )
            >
            > Klemp must fear these patient chelas very much, and thus, he
            > has slowed down the initiations in order to remain in control.
            > It seems this is the true reason for being stingy about the
            > initiations! Klemp is a stingy and fearful little old man--he
            > is no guru or godman! So again I ask, why not discuss Klemp,
            > and let Twitchell be for the most part? Let's get to the heart of
            > the matter which is what Klemp is doing with eckankar! The
            > continuing discussions about how eckankar began and how
            > Twitchell established it, speculating on his motivations, etc.
            > are all distractions from what needs to be analyzed today--
            > that being Harold Klemp and what he has done to eckankar!
            > My gut feeling is that Twitchell would not be happy with what
            > Harold has done to his creation! LOL!
            >
            > BTW, I didn't leave eckankar because of David Lane's book-I
            > haven't read it. I left because of Ford Johnson's "Confessions
            > of a God Seeker." Many eckists left after becoming aware of
            > Ford's book. No need to give Lane all the credit. Others have left
            > because they saw through the veil of illusion--they knew
            > something wasn't right in belonging to the eck cult and they
            > hit the road on their own! There are many reasons and ways
            > that one can wake up to the truth about eckankar . . . and get
            > out! : )
            >
            > Mish
            >
            > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
            > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
            > >
            > > I was thinking about what Klemp said about Gross
            > > holding onto the Rod of ECK Power beyond his time
            > > and was, therefore, "burned" by it.
            > >
            > > If this is true that Gross should have passed the Rod
            > > to Klemp in 1980 (or to someone else) can Eckists,
            > > then, really blame Gross (for his actions) anymore than
            > > they could blame Klemp for slowing their spiritual growth
            > > (initiations)? What is more important for ECKists? Fiscal
            > > Responsibility, Buildings, or Initiations? I was, mostly,
            > > focused on spiritual growth... Initiations!
            > >
            > > Actually, Klemp has more blame by hanging onto
            > > this Power way longer than any 20th Century LEM,
            > > and for delaying and limiting initiations. There should
            > > be at least 33 9ths, 333 8ths, and 3,333 7ths after
            > > 25 years of "leadership." Sure, this would make the org
            > > very "top heavy" but so what! It should be! Aren't Eckists
            > > supposed to be the "cream of the crop?" Why then don't
            > > the initiations reflect this? See, this is just one of
            > > many reasons why the long-time Eckists want to see
            > > Klemp step down.
            > >
            > > HK restructured the org and moved the headquarters
            > > in order to have Total Control over the EK Board of
            > > Trustees. The RESA structure is the extended arm of
            > > this control.
            > >
            > > What were viewed as inappropiate actions by Gross
            > > were really just the "effects" of hanging onto the Rod
            > > beyond his time. DG's rationale and thinking was off
            > > balance and askewed. Consideration and understanding
            > > are still lacking for this phenomonia of holding onto
            > > the "Rod" beyond the time the LEM should. Klemp is
            > > still holding a grudge!
            > >
            > > Even today, the RESA police spy on Eckists with informers
            > > as they ferret out those who are Not supposed to even
            > > speak Darwin's name! And, let's face it, there will never
            > > be discussions of the "positive" elements concerning those
            > > 10 lost years of EK History. This is extremely strange since
            > > most Higher Initiates (6-14) have most of their initiations
            > > from those 10 years under Gross!
            > >
            > > Klemp's chelas, from Oct. 22, 1981, are mostly 4ths and
            > > 5ths! Let's face it, according to EK Dogma Chelas, H.I.s
            > > are Not Established on the SOUL PLANE "until" they have
            > > become 6ths!
            > >
            > > This 6th initiation is the "proof" that they have completed
            > > all of the trials and tests for the 5th initiation. I wonder
            > > if this was always the case? Or, did Klemp redefine this
            > > dogma (with these restrictions) "after" he slowed the
            > > initiations down?
            > >
            > > Therefore, Klemp might want to hold onto his MAHANTA
            > > position, until, he can get the majority of "his" Chelas to
            > > the 6th initiation. Maybe this is why he slowed initiations
            > > down in the first place? Maybe it was used as a ploy, along
            > > with building structures, to insure that he would need to
            > > be the LEM and/or Mahanta for 25-30 years or longer!
            > >
            > > Yes, Klemp is very selfish and has done ECK Chelas an
            > > even greater injustice than Gross ever did. Klemp's focus
            > > has been on the tangible instead of the intangible.
            > >
            > > Prometheus
          • prometheus_973
            Wll Don Ginn, or Joan be the new President of the Org? Will Peter Skelsky become the new LEM? Or, will Don be the new LEM? Can Joan, still, be moved in as the
            Message 5 of 15 , Oct 15, 2007
              Wll Don Ginn, or Joan be the new President of the Org?
              Will Peter Skelsky become the new LEM? Or, will Don be
              the new LEM? Can Joan, still, be moved in as the Co-LEM
              without problems? After 25 years it seems like Klemp still
              has a death-grip on the Rod of (EK) Power! Although, the
              ROD has "Burned" Klemp for a decade or more, and has
              affected his health, he has refused to let it go!

              Of course, in any scenario, Klemp won't give up the Top
              Dog spot as "FULL" Mahanta [Chief God over the copyrighted
              materials (words) and property of the Eckankar Corp. in the
              Lower Planes of KAL]!

              HK's Lust for Fame and Power has distorted his Soul on every
              level. The ROD has become Klemp's personal "precious"
              possession, and should have been LET GO of years ago!

              When will ECKists see the Truth... that only the weak, fearful,
              and inexperienced Souls need Masters and Religion, and
              that those EK initiations are just security blankets and
              carrots to feed the ego! Soul is its own Master and needs
              to be Free of Religious Dogma and Group Think!

              Prometheus



              Prometheus wrote:
              >
              I was thinking about what Klemp said about Gross
              holding onto the Rod of ECK Power beyond his time
              and was, therefore, "burned" by it.
              >
              If this is true that Gross should have passed the Rod
              to Klemp in 1980 (or to someone else) can Eckists,
              then, really blame Gross (for his actions) anymore than
              they could blame Klemp for slowing their spiritual growth
              (initiations)? What is more important for ECKists? Fiscal
              Responsibility, Buildings, or Initiations? I was, mostly,
              focused on spiritual growth... Initiations!
              >
              Actually, Klemp has more blame by hanging onto
              this Power way longer than any 20th Century LEM,
              and for delaying and limiting initiations. There should
              be at least 33 9ths, 333 8ths, and 3,333 7ths after
              25 years of "leadership." Sure, this would make the org
              very "top heavy" but so what! It should be! Aren't Eckists
              supposed to be the "cream of the crop?" Why then don't
              the initiations reflect this? See, this is just one of
              many reasons why the long-time Eckists want to see
              Klemp step down.
              >
              HK restructured the org and moved the headquarters
              in order to have Total Control over the EK Board of
              Trustees. The RESA structure is the extended arm of
              this control.
              >
              What were viewed as inappropiate actions by Gross
              were really just the "effects" of hanging onto the Rod
              beyond his time. DG's rationale and thinking was off
              balance and askewed. Consideration and understanding
              are still lacking for this phenomonia of holding onto
              the "Rod" beyond the time the LEM should. Klemp is
              still holding a grudge!
              >
              Even today, the RESA police spy on Eckists with informers
              as they ferret out those who are Not supposed to even
              speak Darwin's name! And, let's face it, there will never
              be discussions of the "positive" elements concerning those
              10 lost years of EK History. This is extremely strange since
              most Higher Initiates (6-14) have most of their initiations
              from those 10 years under Gross!
              >
              Klemp's chelas, from Oct. 22, 1981, are mostly 4ths and
              5ths! Let's face it, according to EK Dogma Chelas, H.I.s
              are Not Established on the SOUL PLANE "until" they have
              become 6ths!
              >
              This 6th initiation is the "proof" that they have completed
              all of the trails and tests for the 5th initiation. I wonder
              if this was always the case? Or, did Klemp redefine this
              dogma (with these restrictions) "after" he slowed the
              initiations down?
              >
              Therefore, Klemp might want to hold onto his MAHANTA
              position, until, he can get the majority of "his" Chelas to
              the 6th initiation. Maybe this is why he slowed initiations
              down in the first place? Maybe it was used as a ploy, along
              with building structures, to insure that he would need to
              be the LEM and/or Mahanta for 25-30 years or longer!
              >
              Yes, Klemp is very selfish and has done ECK Chelas an
              even greater injustice than Gross ever did. Klemp's focus
              has been on the tangible instead of the intangible.
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
              > ***
              > Prometheus wrote:
              > >
              Hi Mish,
              I just read your post. Good one! Yes, it does seem
              like Klemp is taking an awfully long time to "train"
              a replacement. HK's "Wonderful" book has
              a 2005 copyright and he states it will take him
              "several" more years to train someone! A "few"
              means 3-4 right? Therefore, "several" would be
              4-5 or more right? Or, is Klemp incompetent at
              counting as well? If Klemp is being honest and
              is not trying to blind-side his chelas it would seem
              that his replacement won't be ready until, at least,
              Oct. 22, 2009. However, ECKists must always keep
              in mind the Catch-22 rule!
              > >
              However, has Klemp ever really been open, honest,
              or clear about anything? Hmmmmm. The closest
              he came to this was when he had to admit (because
              of it being Public Record) that he was locked-up in
              a mental institution. However, Klemp then put his
              Damage Control Spin on this incident (lemons into
              lemonade?) as he typically blamed or found fault with
              everyone at the mental health facility except himself.
              Re-read it for yourself and see! Klemp has never taken
              Responsibility for his harsh words, judgments, or negative
              actions and reactions toward others nor has he, ever,
              shown any Empathy, tolerance, or compassion. These
              are virtures and indicators of a higher Love.
              > >
              I challenge ECKists to point out where, in HK's vast
              writings, he has Ever Admitted to having made a Mistake,
              or of Showning Empathy toward others... especially
              to non-ECKists! One can rationalize that it is showing
              "tough love" when involving chelas, but how about
              with others? And No, it's Not Detachment either! It's
              the Catch-22 Mahanta Consciousness Ploy of Denial.
              ECKists are stupid and delusional and in denial to believe
              that everything they are told is true... except when they
              validate it via Imagination and with the use of a "charged
              word!" LOL! As Below So Above and Vice-Versa?!
              > >
              Yes, HK is always pointing the finger and blaming others.
              Klemp went to the 1971 ECK Worldwide instead of to his
              own father's funeral to be with his mother, brothers, and
              sister. Then, HK makes excuses for this insensitive and
              narcissistic behaviour by quoting Jesus, in his year 2000
              "Autobiography," while Talking About having Love for God.
              Then Klemp tells ECKists that they must have a "Loving Heart"
              and be an example for others. What a hypocrite!
              > >
              BTW- Here's what Klemp had to say on Eckankar.org about
              "when" Twitchell first met Rebazar.
              > >
              "Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951 in the foothills of the
              Himalayas near Darjeeling." [Hmmmm. This Darjee(ling) sounds
              like Darji]
              > >
              http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html
              > >
              Therefore, if you believe this crap, Rebazar had from
              1951-1965 to "train" Twitchell for the LEM position.
              > >
              Rebazar, during a time when the World's Consciousness
              was lower, took 14 years to "train" Twitchell.
              > >
              Then, Twitchell had from 1965-1971 to "train" Gross. This
              is only 6 years. Maybe it took "less" time to train Darwin
              because the World's Consciousness, even due to wars, etc.,
              has expanded even more.
              > >
              Gross, then, took 10 years to "train" Klemp. Actually,
              Gross was going to hand the Rod to Klemp in 1980 after
              9 years, but took an extra year to finish Klemp's "training."
              > >
              Here's the score on passing the Rod:
              > >
              RT-PT=14 years
              PT-DG=6 years
              DG-HK=10 years
              HK-??=25 years
              > >
              Does it look like Klemp has, maybe, held onto his Power
              over these EK chelas Way Too Long?
              > >
              [BTW-HK's chelas are those First initiated After Oct. 22, 1981.]
              > >
              It looks like HK (the most advanced Mahanta ever, he claims)
              Should Not have taken more than 15 years to "train" someone,
              and that's giving him a lot of "wiggle" room.
              > >
              > > Prometheus


              mish wrote:
              > > >
              Hi, All!
              > > >
              What Prometheus wrote here reminded me of something
              Klemp wrote in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters." Prometheus
              wrote:
              > > >
              "Isn't it interesting that Klemp, at the 1983 H.I. Meeting,
              said that he would be the LEM/Mahanta for 10 to 20
              years in order to complete his mission. And, HK boasted
              that unlike Darwin he would Let Go of the Rod of ECK
              Power before it burned him and affected his health.
              > > >
              <snipped>
              > > >
              Anyway, Klemp has held onto the Rod of ECK Power
              with a death grip, and has gone way beyond the 20
              years promised to complete his mission (of building
              structures)."
              > > >
              On pages 235-236, in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters,"
              Klemp answered in a chela's dream "the length of his
              service as the Living ECK Master. How long would he
              serve in that position? Were there others in training?"
              > > >
              Klemp wrote, "The Master assured her that a few
              initiates were indeed in training for leadership in ECK,
              but no one was ready yet to assume the responsibility.
              It might take several years or many more for the first
              one to complete all the tests. Accordingly, the Master
              would continue for another cycle as the Mahanta, the
              Living ECK Master. . . . "
              > > >
              Doesn't sound like Klemp is ready to step down yet,
              and that is why I believe after reading what Klemp wrote
              about Joan in his book, that he was setting the stage
              for her elevating to a position of great assistence to
              the godman! I would think that Don Ginn, Peter Skelsky,
              and the other hopeful "candidates" waiting in the wings
              for their chance to grasp the rod of eck power would
              be discouraged after reading Klemp's book. I agree
              that Klemp seems to have a death grip on his power--
              he just can't and won't let go of it! : )
              > > >
              Mish
              > > >
              p.s. Remember that Don Ginn and Peter Skelsky were
              both on the Board of Trustees and helped Klemp to
              boot Darwin. These guys were at least 7th initiates
              25 years ago, so how embarrassing it must be to them that
              it is taking so long for the godman Klemp to train them!
              Either they are slow learners or Klemp is, as we know,
              incompetent and a fraud--Klemp has none of the powers he
              claims! Well, stupidity does abound in eckankar for sure!
              > > >
              > > > ################################
              > > >
              prometheus wrote:
              > > > >
              Hi Mish,
              Excellent post! On the other hand... the more I think
              about it... perhaps Don will take the place of Peter
              Skelsky and Peter will become the next LEM.
              > > > >
              Isn't it interesting that Klemp, at the 1983 H.I. Meeting,
              said that he would be the LEM/Mahanta for 10 to 20
              years in order to complete his mission. And, HK boasted
              that unlike Darwin he would Let Go of the Rod of ECK
              Power before it burned him and affected his health.
              > > > >
              Actually, I didn't see where the "Rod" had "burned" DG
              and, therefore, supposedly affected his health. HK and
              the Board of Trustees are the ones that burned DG!
              > > > >
              Anyway, Klemp has held onto the Rod of ECK Power
              with a death grip, and has gone way beyond the 20
              years promised to complete his mission (of building
              structures).
              > > > >
              What should have been Klemp's mission? Isn't the real
              mission of a Mahanta: To take MORE Souls into the HIGHEST
              Planes of the Sugmad; To do this more directly or FASTER
              than any other religion or spiritual path could; To set
              Souls FREE, thus, they too become MASTERS?!
              > > > >
              Instead, Klemp slowed Initiations down, and told ECKists
              that he would! Why did he Not Speed these up at some
              point? Look at the long-time 7th initiates that have been
              7ths... for 20 plus years! What's with that? Why aren't
              there more 8ths? I know that there are 9ths... including
              Joan! Why the Glass Ceiling for long-time 7ths and former
              RESAs? What does Klemp fear, or is this another effect
              from Not having Let Go (of the Rod) when he should have?!
              > > > >
              Yes, Klemp was burned a long time ago when one looks
              at his EMR problems beginning around 1990. Look at
              his health problems of the last few years! So, I guess
              his reasoning is, still, that his replacement wasn't ready.
              Is that the way things are supposed to work in Eckankar?
              > > > >
              A replacement is ready when the need arises just like
              when the chela is ready the Master will appear. Klemp
              can tell chelas anything at anytime and chelas will accept
              it because if they can't then something must be wrong
              with them. The possibility can never exist that something
              is wrong with Klemp or that he is lying. Yet, didn't HK
              say that Twitchell 'twisted facts?' And, Marman said that
              Twitchell used half-truths while Rich (another ECKist)
              claims that PT plagarized 7% of his works! Didn't DG
              "fall" from Grace? It's obvious that Klemp had fallen long
              ago... circa 1990 perhaps?! The truth does have a bite
              to it at times and this is why people will deny it for as
              long as they can. This is why HK wants ECKists to "imagine"
              that everything is fine with his leadership. The mind is
              very powerful... just look at what it can do when under
              a concentrated focus... like with hypnosis.
              > > > >
              So why do ECKists believe Klemp's version of truth? it's
              because they fear the real truth that he's a fraud. What
              else do they have to believe in? Eckankar is their life...
              their crutch... they think. But there is much more! And
              one can only discover this when they have Let Go...
              Break the Chains and stand in a clear new light as a free
              Soul.
              > > > >
              However, and on the other hand, after the fiasco with
              Darwin one would think that ECKists could handle the
              truth. And, wouldn't Klemp want to show the finances
              to the General Membership in an Annual Report. That
              doesn't happen though does it! Instead, Klemp puts the
              fear of asking questions into chelas because questioning
              his authority on anything will cause a chela to be held back
              on Initiations. Never complain in your IRO or HIRO because
              it will be put into your file at the ESC. "Good" ECKists must
              always practice the "Law of Silence" and "Surrender" their
              ability to think.
              > > > >
              So what's all this mean? It means that most ECKists
              really want to see a change in leadership, but can't say
              so. Klemp hasn't done anything except to create more
              structures and write a ton of worthless books. Why are
              these books worthless? Because the "spiritual" message
              is way too simple, of lower consciousness, and is redundant
              because one can find similar books everywhere and by
              other secular or religious writers. Besides, these books
              of Klemp's are only directed to the uninitiated public or
              to the vast number of simple-minded chelas that don't
              "Get It." These are Klemp's other Money Makers because
              he gets 50% of the royalities!
              > > > >
              ECKists have been duped for a long time and for 25
              years by Klemp! Even this narcissist knows that it has
              to end soon. But why travel to Minneapolis to see the
              new LEM when you've seen them before and will see and
              hear from them more in the future? And, if you're a
              True Blue ECKist, of higher consciousness, you should be
              able to project yourself there, or see it on the Inner. Right!
              > > > >
              Prometheus
              > > > >
              > > > >
              Mish wrote:
              > > > > >
              Hi, Everyone!
              > > > > >
              When I read Klemp's book "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," I
              saw this book as a tool Klemp had created to elevate Joan
              to an eck master, and I still believe that was one of the basic
              purposes of the book. Klemp thinks he can cleverly insert subtle
              ideas that when the reader goes back later, can say, oh, yes,
              it's in there--how could one miss it! LOL! So, it is in "Those
              Wonderful ECK Masters" that Joan appears in some chelas
              dreams doing what eck masters are supposed to do, helping
              chelas to find the mahanta! Also, in the chapter on Kata Daki,
              Klemp explains how more female eck masters are coming out
              to be known--he states it is now time! Again, it is time for
              Joan to be an eck master. . . . Anyway, this is what I saw in
              the book and I still believe that was Klemp's primary motivation
              to write the book when he did. I also believe that Klemp was
              planning to announce some changes in the leadership of
              eckankar, positioning Joan in a bigger role of power so that
              she could "officially" assist him in his declining years as
              master of the universe. Now, I don't have those feelings of
              a big announcement in that regard coming out publicly to
              the chelas soon, if ever! I guess the chelas will have to get it
              on the inner! LOL!
              > > > > >
              Seriously, though, positioning Joan in such a way before the
              chelas would at the very least give her some clout if Klemp
              became disabled or dead. I'm sure Klemp is recalling
              what happened when PT suddenly died and how Gail then
              selected the next L.E.M. mahanta in a dream and then later
              married him! Hey, is Don Ginn married??? : )
              > > > > >
              There are big changes coming in the hierarchial structure
              of the eckankar org--but not sure when it will be announced.
              Maybe Klemp has decided not to appear so frail for the time
              being as he continues his scheming to remain where he is
              in the seat of eck power as long as he can! He's changed his
              course a little bit for now, so I foresee a very boring up-coming
              EWWS! It will be pretty much the same old eckancrap!
              > > > > >
              Chelas, I advise that you save your time and money by staying
              home . . . or if you're truly in the mood to travel, go some
              place fun and warm for a change! : )
              > > > > >
              Mish
              > > > > >
              prometheus_wrote:
              > > > > > >
              Hi All,
              Yes, it seems that Don might be the next LEM while
              Klemp remains the "full" Mahanta. Of course there is,
              still, the possibility that Joan is made the Co-LEM
              (since a female could only share this position, due to
              "their" negative atoms).
              > > > > > >
              As a "junior" and/or Co-LEM (under the guidance &
              supervision of the "full" LEM/Mahanta) Joan could take
              > > > > > > over, even more, duties for her husband at the ESC.
              > > > > > >
              Or, Don can be given these duties as a "junior" LEM while
              Joan continues her role at the ESC while spying on Don for HK!
              > > > > > >
              Anyway, it's a win/win for them right!
              > > > > > >
              I wonder... Would Joan be able to take orders from Don,
              or will she, only, be obeying the Living ECK... Mahanta
              like Marge?

              Prometheus
            • prometheus_973
              IMO-The KAL always wants ECKists to attend the ECK Seminars in order to waste their hard earned Vahana money on travel and hotel expenses versus attending on
              Message 6 of 15 , Oct 16, 2007
                IMO-The KAL always wants ECKists to attend the
                ECK Seminars in order to waste their hard earned
                Vahana money on travel and hotel expenses versus
                attending on the "Inner."

                Isn't this "inner connection" via Soul Travel the
                "special" attribute that makes Eckankar and ECKists
                different from others and more "spiritually advanced"
                from the other religious herds? So, WHY is it necessary
                to attend on the outer and make a pilgrimage to the
                Temple on the physical versus the higher inner planes,
                especially, for H.I.s?

                WHY is it necessary for H.I.s to even "write" a Monthly
                Initiate Report (IRO/HIRO) IF there is Always/Constantly
                an "inner" communication taking place? WHY do ECK
                H.I.s need this "lower" physical act to demonstrate
                discipline, and to communicate with their 14th initiate
                leader?

                WHY is Klemp attached to Astral Plane emotions,
                and Physical Plane limitations? Afterall, ECKists not
                only have to go through metal detectors for Klemp's
                Saturday night talk (due to his fears), but they have
                to get their inspiration from outer talks and words
                just as other religious followers do!

                So what is it that makes Eckankar "better" than other
                religions? The proof is in the pudding! Just look at these
                ECK H.I.s! Or, better yet, just talk to and listen to them!
                Anyone can memorize an ECK brochure, but what do they
                really say and how do they really behave away from the
                seminar? They're no different from anyone else (for good
                or bad) regardless of initiation level. WHY? Because the
                EK initiations, except for what's printed on paper, don't
                exist in reality. Only the imagination can fulfill the hopes
                and dreams of those who believe. This is WHY and HOW
                religions work for the masses... including ECKists!

                Prometheus




                mish wrote:


                LET'S DISCUSS KLEMP MORE! WHAT'S WRONG WITH
                HIM AND ALL HIS FOIBLES AS A SELF-PROCLAIMED
                GODMAN! IT IS NOT ALL ABOUT TWITCHELL!

                For me, actually, eckankar is just a man-made new
                age religion. Why and what Twitchell did in creating it
                can be debated until the cows come home. Everyone
                interested in this strange little known cult the least
                little bit takes one side or the other in the debate which
                basically comes down to how important or insignificant
                the plagiarisms and lies are to the eckankar teachings.

                Those who remain in eckankar have chosen to miminalize
                the fraud that has taken place and are quite confortable
                to remain in the delusion and illusion of the eck teachings.
                They support Klemp as he continues the lies and deceptions,
                keeping silent as he also molds eckankar to fit his
                narrow-minded, anti-social and narcissistic personality.
                Many eckists become like him which is not something one
                should really strive for! : )

                But to take this to a present day discussion, why do we not,
                meaning eckists and non-eckists alike debate the leadership
                of Klemp??? Klemp has been the mahanta/L.E.M. far longer
                than his predecessors, their years combined. It seems to me
                that we need to look long and hard at what Klemp has done
                and is doing since taking the reins of eckankar and shaping it
                into his creation. To me, what eckankar is today is greatly flawed
                by Klemp's shifty hands! He is no godman--how can anyone
                consider such a silly, nerdy looking and odd speaking man a
                god incarnate? Just looking at him and listening to his stupid
                talks makes the whole org look ridiculous!! He's a joke and
                there's nothing special or original about him! LOL!

                My guess is that many long time eckists are waiting, still
                waiting, for the winds of change to happen--when Klemp
                either steps down or is removed from his throne. I believe
                that many of the true eckists are just waiting for a power
                shift in leadership which they hope will then bring the outer
                org in line with what they are feeling/experiencing on their
                inner! They are hopeful that eckankar will become the
                religion they have longed for! : )

                Klemp must fear these patient chelas very much, and thus, he
                has slowed down the initiations in order to remain in control.
                It seems this is the true reason for being stingy about the
                initiations! Klemp is a stingy and fearful little old man--he
                is no guru or godman! So again I ask, why not discuss Klemp,
                and let Twitchell be for the most part? Let's get to the heart of
                the matter which is what Klemp is doing with eckankar! The
                continuing discussions about how eckankar began and how
                Twitchell established it, speculating on his motivations, etc.
                are all distractions from what needs to be analyzed today--
                that being Harold Klemp and what he has done to eckankar!
                My gut feeling is that Twitchell would not be happy with what
                Harold has done to his creation! LOL!

                BTW, I didn't leave eckankar because of David Lane's book-I
                haven't read it. I left because of Ford Johnson's "Confessions
                of a God Seeker." Many eckists left after becoming aware of
                Ford's book. No need to give Lane all the credit. Others have left
                because they saw through the veil of illusion--they knew
                something wasn't right in belonging to the eck cult and they
                hit the road on their own! There are many reasons and ways
                that one can wake up to the truth about eckankar . . . and get
                out! : )

                Mish
              • prometheus_973
                Does Doug Kunin have a chance at becoming the next LEM? I ve heard that some ESC staffers would like to see someone younger than Don Ginn or Peter Skelsky take
                Message 7 of 15 , Oct 17, 2007
                  Does Doug Kunin have a chance at becoming the next LEM?
                  I've heard that some ESC staffers would like to see someone
                  younger than Don Ginn or Peter Skelsky take over as Top Dog.
                  However, many of the female staffers would like to see Joan
                  become the LEM or even Co-LEM! Basically, any action or change
                  by Klemp will be seen as positive. However, IF Joan was
                  made LEM or Co-LEM this could (possibly) open the door
                  for FEMALES to become "FULL" MAHANTAS too!

                  The Mahanta can change the old ECK Dogma/rule via Catch-22!
                  According to PT's explanation Males have "atoms" that are
                  Positive and Females have "atoms" that are Negative and this
                  factor is WHY Female ECKists Cannot be a LEM in these Negative
                  Worlds of KAL.

                  Don't Two Negatives = a Positive?

                  Negative Female Atoms existing in the Lower Negative Worlds
                  of KAL would seem to have a Positive Effect! Maybe this is WHY
                  there are so many wars and so much Negativity! The Male "Positive"
                  Atoms are in opposition with the "Negative" Worlds of KAL.

                  Therefore, PT and the rest of the Male political & religious leaders
                  got it wrong! I wonder... WHY didn't they see this before? Maybe
                  they don't want to Let Go of their power over females? It does
                  make it convenient for any group... to automatically have control
                  over Half of the population!



                  Prometheus




                  Prometheus wrote:
                  >
                  > WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO THE MAHANTA CONSCIOUSNESS ???
                  > PT Defined It and Klemp Eliminated This Definition! WHY?
                  >
                  > Twitchell defines "Mahanta Consciousness" in his ECKANKAR
                  > Dictionary, but Klemp deletes this reference in the EK Lexicon.
                  > Look at Klemp's Lexicon and all one can find is the definition
                  > for the "Mahanta" 14th Initiate. I thought the Mahanta Con.
                  > was supposed to be more impersonal and intangible.
                  >
                  > PT: "Mahanta Consciousness - The spiritual leader,
                  > or Godman; head of ECK;
                  >
                  > [ME: Well! That's not impersonal or intangible either!
                  > No wonder HK makes a distinction between the "full"
                  > 14th initiate LEM/Mahanta versus the 12th or 13th
                  > (in training) Mahanta]
                  >
                  > all those who come to him in the present age have been
                  > with him since their advent into the world;
                  >
                  > [ME: This must be true for DG's initiates too? Shame
                  > on you Mr. Klemp for biting the hand that passed you
                  > the "ROD!" Afterall, RT chose PT, and RT/PT/GT
                  > chose DG, and DG (out of love) handed you the Rod!]
                  >
                  > the body of the Mahanta is the ECK, which is the essence
                  > of God flowing out from the Ocean of Love and Mercy,
                  > sustaining all life and tying together all forms;
                  >
                  > [ME: the definition for "spiritual hierarchy" lists the Mahanta
                  > third and after the ECK. Besides, how can the ECK be limited
                  > by a number like 14th Plane? Also, the "ANAMI LOK" is where
                  > SUGMAD resides and it's the 10th Plane! (pg. 9, EK Lexicon).
                  > How can the Mahanta be 14th Plane when Sugmad resides on
                  > the 10th Plane?!]
                  >
                  > the Vi-Guru, the Light Giver; a state of God Consciousness
                  > which is beyond the titles given in religions which designate
                  > states of consciousness; the highest of all states of consciousness."
                  >
                  > [ME: Paul had to one-up Radhasoami ("Path of the Masters") and
                  > Ruhani Satsang (Kirpal Singh) in order to be "Top Dog". Afterall,
                  > you're not going to Buy or Invest in something if it's not the very
                  > "Best" and "Fastest" are you?]
                  >
                  > ******************************************************************
                  >
                  > Yes, by now (after 25 years) there should be: 33,333 6th EK Initiates;
                  > 3,333 7ths; 333 8ths; 33 9ths! Klemp has fallen down on the job
                  > and has focused upon building monuments to his ego!
                  >
                  > Darwin may have been a big spender, but at least he wasn't
                  > stingy with initiations, and neither was Paul!
                  >
                  > So, there will probably be a big buzz at the up and coming
                  > 2007 EWWS (not to be confused with the EWS, or ECK Worship
                  > Service).
                  >
                  > ECKists will be talking... is this the Year for a Change in
                  > Leadership... Finally!!! Will ECKists have a leader that won't
                  > be a simpleton or a nerdy looking recluse and an embarrassment
                  > to Vahanas?
                  >
                  > When comparing HK to GW one has to admit that ANY CHANGE
                  > would be for the better... even if HK remains as the "full" (FMOC)
                  > master-on-campus!
                  >
                  > Or, will Klemp disapoint Chelas once again with a new ploy
                  > (delay tactic) and new distractions (buildings, books, etc.)?
                  >
                  > Yes, ECKists will be "challenged" by the I-35 Bridge Collapse
                  > and the Airlines reducing plane size and customers flying
                  > into Minneapolis, but this just puts them into the same boat
                  > as others... it's called life! Therefore this is not a "special"
                  > event created by the Kal nor a special circumstance (test)
                  > for ECKists alone! WAKE UP ECKIES AND LOOK AROUND AT
                  > OTHER PEOPLE... THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS YOUR BELIEF!!!
                  >
                  > Really, ECKists are vain and live in a bubble! Look around
                  > and get out of your shells! Don't limit your thinking to ECK
                  > Dogma and to EK religious belief that isolates you from life
                  > experiences and having compassion and empathy of others.
                  > You are no more "special" than any other Soul... and don't
                  > think you're more "advanced" because someone has told
                  > you so, or trained you to jump though hoops for initiations!
                  >
                  > WAKE UP TO THE REAL TRUTH! YOU ARE SPIRITUALLY FREE NOW!
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > mish wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > LET'S DISCUSS KLEMP MORE! WHAT'S WRONG WITH
                  > > HIM AND ALL HIS FOIBLES AS A SELF-PROCLAIMED
                  > > GODMAN! IT IS NOT ALL ABOUT TWITCHELL!
                  > >
                  > > For me, actually, eckankar is just a man-made new
                  > > age religion. Why and what Twitchell did in creating it
                  > > can be debated until the cows come home. Everyone
                  > > interested in this strange little known cult the least
                  > > little bit takes one side or the other in the debate which
                  > > basically comes down to how important or insignificant
                  > > the plagiarisms and lies are to the eckankar teachings.
                  > > Those who remain in eckankar have chosen to miminalize
                  > > the fraud that has taken place and are quite confortable
                  > > to remain in the delusion and illusion of the eck teachings.
                  > > They support Klemp as he continues the lies and deceptions,
                  > > keeping silent as he also molds eckankar to fit his
                  > > narrow-minded, anti-social and narcissistic personality.
                  > > Many eckists become like him which is not something one
                  > > should really strive for! : )
                  > >
                  > > But to take this to a present day discussion, why do we not,
                  > > meaning eckists and non-eckists alike debate the leadership
                  > > of Klemp??? Klemp has been the mahanta/L.E.M. far longer
                  > > than his predecessors, their years combined. It seems to me
                  > > that we need to look long and hard at what Klemp has done
                  > > and is doing since taking the reins of eckankar and shaping it
                  > > into his creation. To me, what eckankar is today is greatly flawed
                  > > by Klemp's shifty hands! He is no godman--how can anyone
                  > > consider such a silly, nerdy looking and odd speaking man a
                  > > god incarnate? Just looking at him and listening to his stupid
                  > > talks makes the whole org look ridiculous!! He's a joke and
                  > > there's nothing special or original about him! LOL!
                  > >
                  > > My guess is that many long time eckists are waiting, still
                  > > waiting, for the winds of change to happen--when Klemp
                  > > either steps down or is removed from his throne. I believe
                  > > that many of the true eckists are just waiting for a power
                  > > shift in leadership which they hope will then bring the outer
                  > > org in line with what they are feeling/experiencing on their
                  > > inner! They are hopeful that eckankar will become the
                  > > religion they have longed for! : )
                  > >
                  > > Klemp must fear these patient chelas very much, and thus, he
                  > > has slowed down the initiations in order to remain in control.
                  > > It seems this is the true reason for being stingy about the
                  > > initiations! Klemp is a stingy and fearful little old man--he
                  > > is no guru or godman! So again I ask, why not discuss Klemp,
                  > > and let Twitchell be for the most part? Let's get to the heart of
                  > > the matter which is what Klemp is doing with eckankar! The
                  > > continuing discussions about how eckankar began and how
                  > > Twitchell established it, speculating on his motivations, etc.
                  > > are all distractions from what needs to be analyzed today--
                  > > that being Harold Klemp and what he has done to eckankar!
                  > > My gut feeling is that Twitchell would not be happy with what
                  > > Harold has done to his creation! LOL!
                  > >
                  > > BTW, I didn't leave eckankar because of David Lane's book-I
                  > > haven't read it. I left because of Ford Johnson's "Confessions
                  > > of a God Seeker." Many eckists left after becoming aware of
                  > > Ford's book. No need to give Lane all the credit. Others have left
                  > > because they saw through the veil of illusion--they knew
                  > > something wasn't right in belonging to the eck cult and they
                  > > hit the road on their own! There are many reasons and ways
                  > > that one can wake up to the truth about eckankar . . . and get
                  > > out! : )
                  > >
                  > > Mish
                  > >
                  > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                  > > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > I was thinking about what Klemp said about Gross
                  > > > holding onto the Rod of ECK Power beyond his time
                  > > > and was, therefore, "burned" by it.
                  > > >
                  > > > If this is true that Gross should have passed the Rod
                  > > > to Klemp in 1980 (or to someone else) can Eckists,
                  > > > then, really blame Gross (for his actions) anymore than
                  > > > they could blame Klemp for slowing their spiritual growth
                  > > > (initiations)? What is more important for ECKists? Fiscal
                  > > > Responsibility, Buildings, or Initiations? I was, mostly,
                  > > > focused on spiritual growth... Initiations!
                  > > >
                  > > > Actually, Klemp has more blame by hanging onto
                  > > > this Power way longer than any 20th Century LEM,
                  > > > and for delaying and limiting initiations. There should
                  > > > be at least 33 9ths, 333 8ths, and 3,333 7ths after
                  > > > 25 years of "leadership." Sure, this would make the org
                  > > > very "top heavy" but so what! It should be! Aren't Eckists
                  > > > supposed to be the "cream of the crop?" Why then don't
                  > > > the initiations reflect this? See, this is just one of
                  > > > many reasons why the long-time Eckists want to see
                  > > > Klemp step down.
                  > > >
                  > > > HK restructured the org and moved the headquarters
                  > > > in order to have Total Control over the EK Board of
                  > > > Trustees. The RESA structure is the extended arm of
                  > > > this control.
                  > > >
                  > > > What were viewed as inappropiate actions by Gross
                  > > > were really just the "effects" of hanging onto the Rod
                  > > > beyond his time. DG's rationale and thinking was off
                  > > > balance and askewed. Consideration and understanding
                  > > > are still lacking for this phenomonia of holding onto
                  > > > the "Rod" beyond the time the LEM should. Klemp is
                  > > > still holding a grudge!
                  > > >
                  > > > Even today, the RESA police spy on Eckists with informers
                  > > > as they ferret out those who are Not supposed to even
                  > > > speak Darwin's name! And, let's face it, there will never
                  > > > be discussions of the "positive" elements concerning those
                  > > > 10 lost years of EK History. This is extremely strange since
                  > > > most Higher Initiates (6-14) have most of their initiations
                  > > > from those 10 years under Gross!
                  > > >
                  > > > Klemp's chelas, from Oct. 22, 1981, are mostly 4ths and
                  > > > 5ths! Let's face it, according to EK Dogma Chelas, H.I.s
                  > > > are Not Established on the SOUL PLANE "until" they have
                  > > > become 6ths!
                  > > >
                  > > > This 6th initiation is the "proof" that they have completed
                  > > > all of the trials and tests for the 5th initiation. I wonder
                  > > > if this was always the case? Or, did Klemp redefine this
                  > > > dogma (with these restrictions) "after" he slowed the
                  > > > initiations down?
                  > > >
                  > > > Therefore, Klemp might want to hold onto his MAHANTA
                  > > > position, until, he can get the majority of "his" Chelas to
                  > > > the 6th initiation. Maybe this is why he slowed initiations
                  > > > down in the first place? Maybe it was used as a ploy, along
                  > > > with building structures, to insure that he would need to
                  > > > be the LEM and/or Mahanta for 25-30 years or longer!
                  > > >
                  > > > Yes, Klemp is very selfish and has done ECK Chelas an
                  > > > even greater injustice than Gross ever did. Klemp's focus
                  > > > has been on the tangible instead of the intangible.
                  > > >
                  > > > Prometheus
                  >
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