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Re: Don Ginn - The Next LEM?

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  • mishmisha9
    Hi, Everyone! When I read Klemp s book Those Wonderful ECK Masters, I saw this book as a tool Klemp had created to elevate Joan to an eck master, and I still
    Message 1 of 15 , Oct 4, 2007
      Hi, Everyone!

      When I read Klemp's book "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," I
      saw this book as a tool Klemp had created to elevate Joan
      to an eck master, and I still believe that was one of the basic
      purposes of the book. Klemp thinks he can cleverly insert subtle
      ideas that when the reader goes back later, can say, oh, yes,
      it's in there--how could one miss it! LOL! So, it is in "Those
      Wonderful ECK Masters" that Joan appears in some chelas
      dreams doing what eck masters are supposed to do, helping
      chelas to find the mahanta! Also, in the chapter on Kata Daki,
      Klemp explains how more female eck masters are coming out
      to be known--he states it is now time! Again, it is time for
      Joan to be an eck master. . . . Anyway, this is what I saw in
      the book and I still believe that was Klemp's primary motivation
      to write the book when he did. I also believe that Klemp was
      planning to announce some changes in the leadership of
      eckankar, positioning Joan in a bigger role of power so that
      she could "officially" assist him in his declining years as
      master of the universe. Now, I don't have those feelings of
      a big announcement in that regard coming out publicly to
      the chelas soon, if ever! I guess the chelas will have to get it
      on the inner! LOL!

      Seriously, though, positioning Joan in such a way before the
      chelas would at the very least give her some clout if Klemp
      became disabled or dead. I'm sure Klemp is recalling
      what happened when PT suddenly died and how Gail then
      selected the next L.E.M. mahanta in a dream and then later
      married him! Hey, is Don Ginn married??? : )

      There are big changes coming in the hierarchial structure
      of the eckankar org--but not sure when it will be announced.
      Maybe Klemp has decided not to appear so frail for the time
      being as he continues his scheming to remain where he is
      in the seat of eck power as long as he can! He's changed his
      course a little bit for now, so I foresee a very boring up-coming
      EWWS! It will be pretty much the same old eckancrap!

      Chelas, I advise that you save your time and money by staying
      home . . . or if you're truly in the mood to travel, go some
      place fun and warm for a change! : )

      Mish

      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
      "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi All,
      > Yes, it seems that Don might be the next LEM while
      > Klemp remains the "full" Mahanta. Of course there is,
      > still, the possibility that Joan is made the Co-LEM
      > (since a female could only share this position, due to
      > "their" negative atoms).
      >
      > As a "junior" and/or Co-LEM (under the guidance &
      > supervision of the "full" LEM/Mahanta) Joan could take
      > over, even more, duties for her husband at the ESC.
      >
      > Or, Don can be given these duties as a "junior" LEM while
      > Joan continues her role at the ESC while spying on Don
      > for HK!
      >
      > Anyway, it's a win/win for them right!
      >
      > I wonder... Would Joan be able to take orders from Don,
      > or will she, only, be obeying the Living ECK... Mahanta
      > like Marge?
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
      >
      > > mish wrote:
      > > >
      > > >
      > > Hi, Liz!
      > > >
      > > It seems this attorney was thinking outside of the box! : ) When we
      > > close ourselves off from the outside world by joining a cult like
      > > eckankar, we box ourselves into a small isolated tunnel like place and
      > > can forget the basic things in life like "your family comes first."
      > > >
      > > Mish
      > > >
      > > Liz wrote:
      > > > >
      > > Hi Mish and all,
      > > > >
      > > I am surprised too that eckankar doesn't go into further detail, explaining
      > > how a will should be written so family members can not contest such a
      > > donation. (or do they?)
      > > > >
      > > When I was still a member, my DH and I had wills drawn up through an
      > > attorney I use for family issues. I questioned how a portion could be left
      > > to my church. My attorney gave me a funny look and said "your family should
      > > always come first"! We had an interesting conversation, and in the end I
      > > didn't leave anything to eckankar. ;-) All it takes is discussing
      > > something of this nature with an outsider, and they tend to have a much
      > > better way of putting the important things into perspective.
      > >
      > > Liz
      > >
      > > ---------------------------------------------------------
      > >
      > > Mish wrote:
      > > > >
      > > Here's the exact statement posted by Bob Hepple on the
      > > California Satsang Society Chela News & Events publication
      > > regarding raising money for their building fund:
      > > > >
      > > "How can I donate? There are many ways that you can donate.
      > > Enclosed is an envelope and donation form that will allow
      > > you to receive a tax receipt for your check or credit card
      > > donation. Also enclosed are two brochures, published by
      > > ECKANKAR Spiritual Center, that explain how to bequeath
      > > the California Satsang Society in your will or living trust,
      > > or make the Society a beneficiary of your retirement,
      > > pension plan, or life insurance policy."
      > > > >
      > >
      > > This very plainly states how such cult groups like eckankar go
      > > after members' money.
      > >
      > > <snip>
      > >
      > > Another disturbing thing is how blatantly eckankar goes after
      > > members money including pensions, life insurance and other
      > > money that most people bequeath to surviving family members.
      > > This shows how callous eckankar is regarding family structure
      > > and well-being. Eckankar breaks down family ties in order to
      > > get the family money! But of course that is what all cults are
      > > after--bleeding chelas dry but making them imagine they are
      > > getting something in the bargain, a stairway to heaven, perhaps!
      > >
      >
    • prometheus_973
      Hi Mish, Excellent post! On the other hand... the more I think about it... perhaps Don will take the place of Peter Skelsky and Peter will become the next LEM.
      Message 2 of 15 , Oct 4, 2007
        Hi Mish,
        Excellent post! On the other hand... the more I think
        about it... perhaps Don will take the place of Peter
        Skelsky and Peter will become the next LEM.

        Isn't it interesting that Klemp, at the 1983 H.I. Meeting,
        said that he would be the LEM/Mahanta for 10 to 20
        years in order to complete his mission. And, HK boasted
        that unlike Darwin he would Let Go of the Rod of ECK
        Power before it burned him and affected his health.

        Actually, I didn't see where the "Rod" had "burned" DG
        and, therefore, supposedly affected his health. HK and
        the Board of Trustees are the ones that burned DG!

        Anyway, Klemp has held onto the Rod of ECK Power
        with a death grip, and has gone way beyond the 20
        years promised to complete his mission (of building
        structures).

        What should have been Klemp's mission? Isn't the real
        mission of a Mahanta: To take MORE Souls into the HIGHEST
        Planes of the Sugmad; To do this more directly or FASTER
        than any other religion or spiritual path could; To set
        Souls FREE, thus, they too become MASTERS?!

        Instead, Klemp slowed Initiations down, and told ECKists
        that he would! Why did he Not Speed these up at some
        point? Look at the long-time 7th initiates that have been
        7ths... for 20 plus years! What's with that? Why aren't
        there more 8ths? I know that there are 9ths... including
        Joan! Why the Glass Ceiling for long-time 7ths and former
        RESAs? What does Klemp fear, or is this another effect
        from Not having Let Go (of the Rod) when he should have?!

        Yes, Klemp was burned a long time ago when one looks
        at his EMR problems beginning around 1990. Look at
        his health problems of the last few years! So, I guess
        his reasoning is, still, that his replacement wasn't ready.
        Is that the way things are supposed to work in Eckankar?

        A replacement is ready when the need arises just like
        when the chela is ready the Master will appear. Klemp
        can tell chelas anything at anytime and chelas will accept
        it because if they can't then something must be wrong
        with them. The possibility can never exist that something
        is wrong with Klemp or that he is lying. Yet, didn't HK
        say that Twitchell 'twisted facts?' And, Marman said that
        Twitchell used half-truths while Rich (another ECKist)
        claims that PT plagarized 7% of his works! Didn't DG
        "fall" from Grace? It's obvious that Klemp had fallen long
        ago... circa 1990 perhaps?! The truth does have a bite
        to it at times and this is why people will deny it for as
        long as they can. This is why HK wants ECKists to "imagine"
        that everything is fine with his leadership. The mind is
        very powerful... just look at what it can do when under
        a concentrated focus... like with hypnosis.

        So why do ECKists believe Klemp's version of truth? it's
        because they fear the real truth that he's a fraud. What
        else do they have to believe in? Eckankar is their life...
        their crutch... they think. But there is much more! And
        one can only discover this when they have Let Go...
        Break the Chains and stand in a clear new light as a free
        Soul.

        However, and on the other hand, after the fiasco with
        Darwin one would think that ECKists could handle the
        truth. And, wouldn't Klemp want to show the finances
        to the General Membership in an Annual Report. That
        doesn't happen though does it! Instead, Klemp puts the
        fear of asking questions into chelas because questioning
        his authority on anything will cause a chela to be held back
        on Initiations. Never complain in your IRO or HIRO because
        it will be put into your file at the ESC. "Good" ECKists must
        always practice the "Law of Silence" and "Surrender" their
        ability to think.

        So what's all this mean? It means that most ECKists
        really want to see a change in leadership, but can't say
        so. Klemp hasn't done anything except to create more
        structures and write a ton of worthless books. Why are
        these books worthless? Because the "spiritual" message
        is way too simple, of lower consciousness, and is redundant
        because one can find similar books everywhere and by
        other secular or religious writers. Besides, these books
        of Klemp's are only directed to the uninitiated public or
        to the vast number of simple-minded chelas that don't
        "Get It." These are Klemp's other Money Makers because
        he gets 50% of the royalities!

        ECKists have been duped for a long time and for 25
        years by Klemp! Even this narcissist knows that it has
        to end soon. But why travel to Minneapolis to see the
        new LEM when you've seen them before and will see and
        hear from them more in the future? And, if you're a
        True Blue ECKist, of higher consciousness, you should be
        able to project yourself there, or see it on the Inner. Right!

        Prometheus


        Mish wrote:
        >
        > Hi, Everyone!
        >
        > When I read Klemp's book "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," I
        > saw this book as a tool Klemp had created to elevate Joan
        > to an eck master, and I still believe that was one of the basic
        > purposes of the book. Klemp thinks he can cleverly insert subtle
        > ideas that when the reader goes back later, can say, oh, yes,
        > it's in there--how could one miss it! LOL! So, it is in "Those
        > Wonderful ECK Masters" that Joan appears in some chelas
        > dreams doing what eck masters are supposed to do, helping
        > chelas to find the mahanta! Also, in the chapter on Kata Daki,
        > Klemp explains how more female eck masters are coming out
        > to be known--he states it is now time! Again, it is time for
        > Joan to be an eck master. . . . Anyway, this is what I saw in
        > the book and I still believe that was Klemp's primary motivation
        > to write the book when he did. I also believe that Klemp was
        > planning to announce some changes in the leadership of
        > eckankar, positioning Joan in a bigger role of power so that
        > she could "officially" assist him in his declining years as
        > master of the universe. Now, I don't have those feelings of
        > a big announcement in that regard coming out publicly to
        > the chelas soon, if ever! I guess the chelas will have to get it
        > on the inner! LOL!
        >
        > Seriously, though, positioning Joan in such a way before the
        > chelas would at the very least give her some clout if Klemp
        > became disabled or dead. I'm sure Klemp is recalling
        > what happened when PT suddenly died and how Gail then
        > selected the next L.E.M. mahanta in a dream and then later
        > married him! Hey, is Don Ginn married??? : )
        >
        > There are big changes coming in the hierarchial structure
        > of the eckankar org--but not sure when it will be announced.
        > Maybe Klemp has decided not to appear so frail for the time
        > being as he continues his scheming to remain where he is
        > in the seat of eck power as long as he can! He's changed his
        > course a little bit for now, so I foresee a very boring up-coming
        > EWWS! It will be pretty much the same old eckancrap!
        >
        > Chelas, I advise that you save your time and money by staying
        > home . . . or if you're truly in the mood to travel, go some
        > place fun and warm for a change! : )
        >
        > Mish
        >
        > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
        > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Hi All,
        > > Yes, it seems that Don might be the next LEM while
        > > Klemp remains the "full" Mahanta. Of course there is,
        > > still, the possibility that Joan is made the Co-LEM
        > > (since a female could only share this position, due to
        > > "their" negative atoms).
        > >
        > > As a "junior" and/or Co-LEM (under the guidance &
        > > supervision of the "full" LEM/Mahanta) Joan could take
        > > over, even more, duties for her husband at the ESC.
        > >
        > > Or, Don can be given these duties as a "junior" LEM while
        > > Joan continues her role at the ESC while spying on Don
        > > for HK!
        > >
        > > Anyway, it's a win/win for them right!
        > >
        > > I wonder... Would Joan be able to take orders from Don,
        > > or will she, only, be obeying the Living ECK... Mahanta
        > > like Marge?
        > >
        > > Prometheus
        > >
        > >
        > > > mish wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > Hi, Liz!
        > > > >
        > > > It seems this attorney was thinking outside of the box! : ) When we
        > > > close ourselves off from the outside world by joining a cult like
        > > > eckankar, we box ourselves into a small isolated tunnel like place and
        > > > can forget the basic things in life like "your family comes first."
        > > > >
        > > > Mish
        > > > >
        > > > Liz wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > Hi Mish and all,
        > > > > >
        > > > I am surprised too that eckankar doesn't go into further detail, explaining
        > > > how a will should be written so family members can not contest such a
        > > > donation. (or do they?)
        > > > > >
        > > > When I was still a member, my DH and I had wills drawn up through an
        > > > attorney I use for family issues. I questioned how a portion could be left
        > > > to my church. My attorney gave me a funny look and said "your family should
        > > > always come first"! We had an interesting conversation, and in the end I
        > > > didn't leave anything to eckankar. ;-) All it takes is discussing
        > > > something of this nature with an outsider, and they tend to have a much
        > > > better way of putting the important things into perspective.
        > > >
        > > > Liz
        > > >
        > > > ---------------------------------------------------------
        > > >
        > > > Mish wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > Here's the exact statement posted by Bob Hepple on the
        > > > California Satsang Society Chela News & Events publication
        > > > regarding raising money for their building fund:
        > > > > >
        > > > "How can I donate? There are many ways that you can donate.
        > > > Enclosed is an envelope and donation form that will allow
        > > > you to receive a tax receipt for your check or credit card
        > > > donation. Also enclosed are two brochures, published by
        > > > ECKANKAR Spiritual Center, that explain how to bequeath
        > > > the California Satsang Society in your will or living trust,
        > > > or make the Society a beneficiary of your retirement,
        > > > pension plan, or life insurance policy."
        > > > > >
        > > >
        > > > This very plainly states how such cult groups like eckankar go
        > > > after members' money.
        > > >
        > > > <snip>
        > > >
        > > > Another disturbing thing is how blatantly eckankar goes after
        > > > members money including pensions, life insurance and other
        > > > money that most people bequeath to surviving family members.
        > > > This shows how callous eckankar is regarding family structure
        > > > and well-being. Eckankar breaks down family ties in order to
        > > > get the family money! But of course that is what all cults are
        > > > after--bleeding chelas dry but making them imagine they are
        > > > getting something in the bargain, a stairway to heaven, perhaps!
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • mishmisha9
        Hi, All! What Prometheus wrote here reminded me of something Klemp wrote in Those Wonderful ECK Masters. Prometheus wrote: Isn t it interesting that Klemp,
        Message 3 of 15 , Oct 5, 2007
          Hi, All!

          What Prometheus wrote here reminded me of something
          Klemp wrote in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters." Prometheus
          wrote:

          "Isn't it interesting that Klemp, at the 1983 H.I. Meeting,
          said that he would be the LEM/Mahanta for 10 to 20
          years in order to complete his mission. And, HK boasted
          that unlike Darwin he would Let Go of the Rod of ECK
          Power before it burned him and affected his health.

          <snipped>

          Anyway, Klemp has held onto the Rod of ECK Power
          with a death grip, and has gone way beyond the 20
          years promised to complete his mission (of building
          structures)."

          On pages 235-236, in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters,"
          Klemp answered in a chela's dream "the length of his
          service as the Living ECK Master. How long would he
          serve in that position? Were there others in training?"

          Klemp wrote, "The Master assured her that a few
          initiates were indeed in training for leadership in ECK,
          but no one was ready yet to assume the responsibility.
          It might take several years or many more for the first
          one to complete all the tests. Accordingly, the Master
          would continue for another cycle as the Mahanta, the
          Living ECK Master. . . . "

          Doesn't sound like Klemp is ready to step down yet,
          and that is why I believe after reading what Klemp wrote
          about Joan in his book, that he was setting the stage
          for her elevating to a position of great assistence to
          the godman! I would think that Don Ginn, Peter Skelsky,
          and the other hopeful "candidates" waiting in the wings
          for their chance to grasp the rod of eck power would
          be discouraged after reading Klemp's book. I agree
          that Klemp seems to have a death grip on his power--
          he just can't and won't let go of it! : )

          Mish

          p.s. Remember that Don Ginn and Peter Skelsky were
          both on the Board of Trustees and helped Klemp to
          boot Darwin. These guys were at least 7th initiates
          25 years ago, so how embarrassing it must be to them that
          it is taking so long for the godman Klemp to train them!
          Either they are slow learners or Klemp is, as we know,
          incompetent and a fraud--Klemp has none of the powers he
          claims! Well, stupidity does abound in eckankar for sure!

          ################################

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
          "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Mish,
          > Excellent post! On the other hand... the more I think
          > about it... perhaps Don will take the place of Peter
          > Skelsky and Peter will become the next LEM.
          >
          > Isn't it interesting that Klemp, at the 1983 H.I. Meeting,
          > said that he would be the LEM/Mahanta for 10 to 20
          > years in order to complete his mission. And, HK boasted
          > that unlike Darwin he would Let Go of the Rod of ECK
          > Power before it burned him and affected his health.
          >
          > Actually, I didn't see where the "Rod" had "burned" DG
          > and, therefore, supposedly affected his health. HK and
          > the Board of Trustees are the ones that burned DG!
          >
          > Anyway, Klemp has held onto the Rod of ECK Power
          > with a death grip, and has gone way beyond the 20
          > years promised to complete his mission (of building
          > structures).
          >
          > What should have been Klemp's mission? Isn't the real
          > mission of a Mahanta: To take MORE Souls into the HIGHEST
          > Planes of the Sugmad; To do this more directly or FASTER
          > than any other religion or spiritual path could; To set
          > Souls FREE, thus, they too become MASTERS?!
          >
          > Instead, Klemp slowed Initiations down, and told ECKists
          > that he would! Why did he Not Speed these up at some
          > point? Look at the long-time 7th initiates that have been
          > 7ths... for 20 plus years! What's with that? Why aren't
          > there more 8ths? I know that there are 9ths... including
          > Joan! Why the Glass Ceiling for long-time 7ths and former
          > RESAs? What does Klemp fear, or is this another effect
          > from Not having Let Go (of the Rod) when he should have?!
          >
          > Yes, Klemp was burned a long time ago when one looks
          > at his EMR problems beginning around 1990. Look at
          > his health problems of the last few years! So, I guess
          > his reasoning is, still, that his replacement wasn't ready.
          > Is that the way things are supposed to work in Eckankar?
          >
          > A replacement is ready when the need arises just like
          > when the chela is ready the Master will appear. Klemp
          > can tell chelas anything at anytime and chelas will accept
          > it because if they can't then something must be wrong
          > with them. The possibility can never exist that something
          > is wrong with Klemp or that he is lying. Yet, didn't HK
          > say that Twitchell 'twisted facts?' And, Marman said that
          > Twitchell used half-truths while Rich (another ECKist)
          > claims that PT plagarized 7% of his works! Didn't DG
          > "fall" from Grace? It's obvious that Klemp had fallen long
          > ago... circa 1990 perhaps?! The truth does have a bite
          > to it at times and this is why people will deny it for as
          > long as they can. This is why HK wants ECKists to "imagine"
          > that everything is fine with his leadership. The mind is
          > very powerful... just look at what it can do when under
          > a concentrated focus... like with hypnosis.
          >
          > So why do ECKists believe Klemp's version of truth? it's
          > because they fear the real truth that he's a fraud. What
          > else do they have to believe in? Eckankar is their life...
          > their crutch... they think. But there is much more! And
          > one can only discover this when they have Let Go...
          > Break the Chains and stand in a clear new light as a free
          > Soul.
          >
          > However, and on the other hand, after the fiasco with
          > Darwin one would think that ECKists could handle the
          > truth. And, wouldn't Klemp want to show the finances
          > to the General Membership in an Annual Report. That
          > doesn't happen though does it! Instead, Klemp puts the
          > fear of asking questions into chelas because questioning
          > his authority on anything will cause a chela to be held back
          > on Initiations. Never complain in your IRO or HIRO because
          > it will be put into your file at the ESC. "Good" ECKists must
          > always practice the "Law of Silence" and "Surrender" their
          > ability to think.
          >
          > So what's all this mean? It means that most ECKists
          > really want to see a change in leadership, but can't say
          > so. Klemp hasn't done anything except to create more
          > structures and write a ton of worthless books. Why are
          > these books worthless? Because the "spiritual" message
          > is way too simple, of lower consciousness, and is redundant
          > because one can find similar books everywhere and by
          > other secular or religious writers. Besides, these books
          > of Klemp's are only directed to the uninitiated public or
          > to the vast number of simple-minded chelas that don't
          > "Get It." These are Klemp's other Money Makers because
          > he gets 50% of the royalities!
          >
          > ECKists have been duped for a long time and for 25
          > years by Klemp! Even this narcissist knows that it has
          > to end soon. But why travel to Minneapolis to see the
          > new LEM when you've seen them before and will see and
          > hear from them more in the future? And, if you're a
          > True Blue ECKist, of higher consciousness, you should be
          > able to project yourself there, or see it on the Inner. Right!
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          >
          > Mish wrote:
          > >
          > > Hi, Everyone!
          > >
          > > When I read Klemp's book "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," I
          > > saw this book as a tool Klemp had created to elevate Joan
          > > to an eck master, and I still believe that was one of the basic
          > > purposes of the book. Klemp thinks he can cleverly insert subtle
          > > ideas that when the reader goes back later, can say, oh, yes,
          > > it's in there--how could one miss it! LOL! So, it is in "Those
          > > Wonderful ECK Masters" that Joan appears in some chelas
          > > dreams doing what eck masters are supposed to do, helping
          > > chelas to find the mahanta! Also, in the chapter on Kata Daki,
          > > Klemp explains how more female eck masters are coming out
          > > to be known--he states it is now time! Again, it is time for
          > > Joan to be an eck master. . . . Anyway, this is what I saw in
          > > the book and I still believe that was Klemp's primary motivation
          > > to write the book when he did. I also believe that Klemp was
          > > planning to announce some changes in the leadership of
          > > eckankar, positioning Joan in a bigger role of power so that
          > > she could "officially" assist him in his declining years as
          > > master of the universe. Now, I don't have those feelings of
          > > a big announcement in that regard coming out publicly to
          > > the chelas soon, if ever! I guess the chelas will have to get it
          > > on the inner! LOL!
          > >
          > > Seriously, though, positioning Joan in such a way before the
          > > chelas would at the very least give her some clout if Klemp
          > > became disabled or dead. I'm sure Klemp is recalling
          > > what happened when PT suddenly died and how Gail then
          > > selected the next L.E.M. mahanta in a dream and then later
          > > married him! Hey, is Don Ginn married??? : )
          > >
          > > There are big changes coming in the hierarchial structure
          > > of the eckankar org--but not sure when it will be announced.
          > > Maybe Klemp has decided not to appear so frail for the time
          > > being as he continues his scheming to remain where he is
          > > in the seat of eck power as long as he can! He's changed his
          > > course a little bit for now, so I foresee a very boring up-coming
          > > EWWS! It will be pretty much the same old eckancrap!
          > >
          > > Chelas, I advise that you save your time and money by staying
          > > home . . . or if you're truly in the mood to travel, go some
          > > place fun and warm for a change! : )
          > >
          > > Mish
          > >
          > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
          > > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Hi All,
          > > > Yes, it seems that Don might be the next LEM while
          > > > Klemp remains the "full" Mahanta. Of course there is,
          > > > still, the possibility that Joan is made the Co-LEM
          > > > (since a female could only share this position, due to
          > > > "their" negative atoms).
          > > >
          > > > As a "junior" and/or Co-LEM (under the guidance &
          > > > supervision of the "full" LEM/Mahanta) Joan could take
          > > > over, even more, duties for her husband at the ESC.
          > > >
          > > > Or, Don can be given these duties as a "junior" LEM while
          > > > Joan continues her role at the ESC while spying on Don
          > > > for HK!
          > > >
          > > > Anyway, it's a win/win for them right!
          > > >
          > > > I wonder... Would Joan be able to take orders from Don,
          > > > or will she, only, be obeying the Living ECK... Mahanta
          > > > like Marge?
          > > >
          > > > Prometheus
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > > mish wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > Hi, Liz!
          > > > > >
          > > > > It seems this attorney was thinking outside of the box! : ) When we
          > > > > close ourselves off from the outside world by joining a cult like
          > > > > eckankar, we box ourselves into a small isolated tunnel like place and
          > > > > can forget the basic things in life like "your family comes first."
          > > > > >
          > > > > Mish
          > > > > >
          > > > > Liz wrote:
          > > > > > >
          > > > > Hi Mish and all,
          > > > > > >
          > > > > I am surprised too that eckankar doesn't go into further detail, explaining
          > > > > how a will should be written so family members can not contest such a
          > > > > donation. (or do they?)
          > > > > > >
          > > > > When I was still a member, my DH and I had wills drawn up through an
          > > > > attorney I use for family issues. I questioned how a portion could be left
          > > > > to my church. My attorney gave me a funny look and said "your family should
          > > > > always come first"! We had an interesting conversation, and in the end I
          > > > > didn't leave anything to eckankar. ;-) All it takes is discussing
          > > > > something of this nature with an outsider, and they tend to have a much
          > > > > better way of putting the important things into perspective.
          > > > >
          > > > > Liz
          > > > >
          > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------
          > > > >
          > > > > Mish wrote:
          > > > > > >
          > > > > Here's the exact statement posted by Bob Hepple on the
          > > > > California Satsang Society Chela News & Events publication
          > > > > regarding raising money for their building fund:
          > > > > > >
          > > > > "How can I donate? There are many ways that you can donate.
          > > > > Enclosed is an envelope and donation form that will allow
          > > > > you to receive a tax receipt for your check or credit card
          > > > > donation. Also enclosed are two brochures, published by
          > > > > ECKANKAR Spiritual Center, that explain how to bequeath
          > > > > the California Satsang Society in your will or living trust,
          > > > > or make the Society a beneficiary of your retirement,
          > > > > pension plan, or life insurance policy."
          > > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > This very plainly states how such cult groups like eckankar go
          > > > > after members' money.
          > > > >
          > > > > <snip>
          > > > >
          > > > > Another disturbing thing is how blatantly eckankar goes after
          > > > > members money including pensions, life insurance and other
          > > > > money that most people bequeath to surviving family members.
          > > > > This shows how callous eckankar is regarding family structure
          > > > > and well-being. Eckankar breaks down family ties in order to
          > > > > get the family money! But of course that is what all cults are
          > > > > after--bleeding chelas dry but making them imagine they are
          > > > > getting something in the bargain, a stairway to heaven, perhaps!
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • prometheus_973
          Hi Mish, I just read your post. Good one! Yes, it does seem like Klemp is taking an awfully long time to train a replacement. HK s Wonderful book has a
          Message 4 of 15 , Oct 5, 2007
            Hi Mish,
            I just read your post. Good one! Yes, it does seem
            like Klemp is taking an awfully long time to "train"
            a replacement. HK's "Wonderful" book has
            a 2005 copyright and he states it will take him
            "several" more years to train someone! A "few"
            means 3-4 right? Therefore, "several" would be
            4-5 or more right? Or, is Klemp incompetent at
            counting as well? If Klemp is being honest and
            is not trying to blind-side his chelas it would seem
            that his replacement won't be ready until, at least,
            Oct. 22, 2009. However, ECKists must always keep
            in mind the Catch-22 rule!

            However, has Klemp ever really been open, honest,
            or clear about anything? Hmmmmm. The closest
            he came to this was when he had to admit (because
            of it being Public Record) that he was locked-up in
            a mental institution. However, Klemp then put his
            Damage Control Spin on this incident (lemons into
            lemonade?) as he typically blamed or found fault with
            everyone at the mental health facility except himself.
            Re-read it for yourself and see! Klemp has never taken
            Responsibility for his harsh words, judgments, or negative
            actions and reactions toward others nor has he, ever,
            shown any Empathy, tolerance, or compassion. These
            are virtures and indicators of a higher Love.

            I challenge ECKists to point out where, in HK's vast
            writings, he has Ever Admitted to having made a Mistake,
            or of Showning Empathy toward others... especially
            to non-ECKists! One can rationalize that it is showing
            "tough love" when involving chelas, but how about
            with others? And No, it's Not Detachment either! It's
            the Catch-22 Mahanta Consciousness Ploy of Denial.
            ECKists are stupid and delusional to believe that everything
            they are told is true... except when they validate it via
            Imagination and with the use of a "charged word!" LOL!
            As Below So Above and Vice-Versa?!

            Yes, HK is always pointing the finger and blaming others.
            Klemp went to the 1971 ECK Worldwide instead of to his
            own father's funeral to be with his mother, brothers, and
            sister. Then, HK makes excuses for this insensitive and
            narcissistic behaviour by quoting Jesus, in his year 2000
            "Autobiography," while Talking About having Love for God.
            Then Klemp tells ECKists that they must have a "Loving Heart"
            and be an example for others. What a hypocrite!

            BTW- Here's what Klemp had to say on Eckankar.org about
            "when" Twitchell first met Rebazar.

            "Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951 in the foothills of the
            Himalayas near Darjeeling." [Hmmmm. This Darjee(ling) sounds
            like Darji]

            http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html

            Therefore, if you believe this crap, Rebazar had from
            1951-1965 to "train" Twitchell for the LEM position.

            Rebazar, during a time when the World's Consciousness
            was lower, took 14 years to "train" Twitchell.

            Then, Twitchell had from 1965-1971 to "train" Gross. This
            is only 6 years. Maybe it took "less" time to train Darwin
            because the World's Consciousness, even due to wars, etc.,
            has expanded even more.

            Gross, then, took 10 years to "train" Klemp. Actually,
            Gross was going to hand the Rod to Klemp in 1980 after
            9 years, but took an extra year to finish Klemp's "training."

            Here's the score on passing the Rod:

            RT-PT=14 years
            PT-DG=6 years
            DG-HK=10 years
            HK-??=25 years

            Does it look like Klemp has, maybe, held onto his Power
            over these EK chelas Way Too Long?

            [BTW-HK's chelas are those First initiated After Oct. 22, 1981.]

            It looks like HK (the most advanced Mahanta ever, he claims)
            Should Not have taken more than 15 years to "train" someone,
            and that's giving him a lot of "wiggle" room.

            Prometheus




            mish wrote:
            >
            > Hi, All!
            >
            > What Prometheus wrote here reminded me of something
            > Klemp wrote in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters." Prometheus
            > wrote:
            >
            > "Isn't it interesting that Klemp, at the 1983 H.I. Meeting,
            > said that he would be the LEM/Mahanta for 10 to 20
            > years in order to complete his mission. And, HK boasted
            > that unlike Darwin he would Let Go of the Rod of ECK
            > Power before it burned him and affected his health.
            >
            > <snipped>
            >
            > Anyway, Klemp has held onto the Rod of ECK Power
            > with a death grip, and has gone way beyond the 20
            > years promised to complete his mission (of building
            > structures)."
            >
            > On pages 235-236, in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters,"
            > Klemp answered in a chela's dream "the length of his
            > service as the Living ECK Master. How long would he
            > serve in that position? Were there others in training?"
            >
            > Klemp wrote, "The Master assured her that a few
            > initiates were indeed in training for leadership in ECK,
            > but no one was ready yet to assume the responsibility.
            > It might take several years or many more for the first
            > one to complete all the tests. Accordingly, the Master
            > would continue for another cycle as the Mahanta, the
            > Living ECK Master. . . . "
            >
            > Doesn't sound like Klemp is ready to step down yet,
            > and that is why I believe after reading what Klemp wrote
            > about Joan in his book, that he was setting the stage
            > for her elevating to a position of great assistence to
            > the godman! I would think that Don Ginn, Peter Skelsky,
            > and the other hopeful "candidates" waiting in the wings
            > for their chance to grasp the rod of eck power would
            > be discouraged after reading Klemp's book. I agree
            > that Klemp seems to have a death grip on his power--
            > he just can't and won't let go of it! : )
            >
            > Mish
            >
            > p.s. Remember that Don Ginn and Peter Skelsky were
            > both on the Board of Trustees and helped Klemp to
            > boot Darwin. These guys were at least 7th initiates
            > 25 years ago, so how embarrassing it must be to them that
            > it is taking so long for the godman Klemp to train them!
            > Either they are slow learners or Klemp is, as we know,
            > incompetent and a fraud--Klemp has none of the powers he
            > claims! Well, stupidity does abound in eckankar for sure!
            >
            > ################################
            >
            > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
            > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi Mish,
            > > Excellent post! On the other hand... the more I think
            > > about it... perhaps Don will take the place of Peter
            > > Skelsky and Peter will become the next LEM.
            > >
            > > Isn't it interesting that Klemp, at the 1983 H.I. Meeting,
            > > said that he would be the LEM/Mahanta for 10 to 20
            > > years in order to complete his mission. And, HK boasted
            > > that unlike Darwin he would Let Go of the Rod of ECK
            > > Power before it burned him and affected his health.
            > >
            > > Actually, I didn't see where the "Rod" had "burned" DG
            > > and, therefore, supposedly affected his health. HK and
            > > the Board of Trustees are the ones that burned DG!
            > >
            > > Anyway, Klemp has held onto the Rod of ECK Power
            > > with a death grip, and has gone way beyond the 20
            > > years promised to complete his mission (of building
            > > structures).
            > >
            > > What should have been Klemp's mission? Isn't the real
            > > mission of a Mahanta: To take MORE Souls into the HIGHEST
            > > Planes of the Sugmad; To do this more directly or FASTER
            > > than any other religion or spiritual path could; To set
            > > Souls FREE, thus, they too become MASTERS?!
            > >
            > > Instead, Klemp slowed Initiations down, and told ECKists
            > > that he would! Why did he Not Speed these up at some
            > > point? Look at the long-time 7th initiates that have been
            > > 7ths... for 20 plus years! What's with that? Why aren't
            > > there more 8ths? I know that there are 9ths... including
            > > Joan! Why the Glass Ceiling for long-time 7ths and former
            > > RESAs? What does Klemp fear, or is this another effect
            > > from Not having Let Go (of the Rod) when he should have?!
            > >
            > > Yes, Klemp was burned a long time ago when one looks
            > > at his EMR problems beginning around 1990. Look at
            > > his health problems of the last few years! So, I guess
            > > his reasoning is, still, that his replacement wasn't ready.
            > > Is that the way things are supposed to work in Eckankar?
            > >
            > > A replacement is ready when the need arises just like
            > > when the chela is ready the Master will appear. Klemp
            > > can tell chelas anything at anytime and chelas will accept
            > > it because if they can't then something must be wrong
            > > with them. The possibility can never exist that something
            > > is wrong with Klemp or that he is lying. Yet, didn't HK
            > > say that Twitchell 'twisted facts?' And, Marman said that
            > > Twitchell used half-truths while Rich (another ECKist)
            > > claims that PT plagarized 7% of his works! Didn't DG
            > > "fall" from Grace? It's obvious that Klemp had fallen long
            > > ago... circa 1990 perhaps?! The truth does have a bite
            > > to it at times and this is why people will deny it for as
            > > long as they can. This is why HK wants ECKists to "imagine"
            > > that everything is fine with his leadership. The mind is
            > > very powerful... just look at what it can do when under
            > > a concentrated focus... like with hypnosis.
            > >
            > > So why do ECKists believe Klemp's version of truth? it's
            > > because they fear the real truth that he's a fraud. What
            > > else do they have to believe in? Eckankar is their life...
            > > their crutch... they think. But there is much more! And
            > > one can only discover this when they have Let Go...
            > > Break the Chains and stand in a clear new light as a free
            > > Soul.
            > >
            > > However, and on the other hand, after the fiasco with
            > > Darwin one would think that ECKists could handle the
            > > truth. And, wouldn't Klemp want to show the finances
            > > to the General Membership in an Annual Report. That
            > > doesn't happen though does it! Instead, Klemp puts the
            > > fear of asking questions into chelas because questioning
            > > his authority on anything will cause a chela to be held back
            > > on Initiations. Never complain in your IRO or HIRO because
            > > it will be put into your file at the ESC. "Good" ECKists must
            > > always practice the "Law of Silence" and "Surrender" their
            > > ability to think.
            > >
            > > So what's all this mean? It means that most ECKists
            > > really want to see a change in leadership, but can't say
            > > so. Klemp hasn't done anything except to create more
            > > structures and write a ton of worthless books. Why are
            > > these books worthless? Because the "spiritual" message
            > > is way too simple, of lower consciousness, and is redundant
            > > because one can find similar books everywhere and by
            > > other secular or religious writers. Besides, these books
            > > of Klemp's are only directed to the uninitiated public or
            > > to the vast number of simple-minded chelas that don't
            > > "Get It." These are Klemp's other Money Makers because
            > > he gets 50% of the royalities!
            > >
            > > ECKists have been duped for a long time and for 25
            > > years by Klemp! Even this narcissist knows that it has
            > > to end soon. But why travel to Minneapolis to see the
            > > new LEM when you've seen them before and will see and
            > > hear from them more in the future? And, if you're a
            > > True Blue ECKist, of higher consciousness, you should be
            > > able to project yourself there, or see it on the Inner. Right!
            > >
            > > Prometheus
            > >
            > >
            > > Mish wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Hi, Everyone!
            > > >
            > > > When I read Klemp's book "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," I
            > > > saw this book as a tool Klemp had created to elevate Joan
            > > > to an eck master, and I still believe that was one of the basic
            > > > purposes of the book. Klemp thinks he can cleverly insert subtle
            > > > ideas that when the reader goes back later, can say, oh, yes,
            > > > it's in there--how could one miss it! LOL! So, it is in "Those
            > > > Wonderful ECK Masters" that Joan appears in some chelas
            > > > dreams doing what eck masters are supposed to do, helping
            > > > chelas to find the mahanta! Also, in the chapter on Kata Daki,
            > > > Klemp explains how more female eck masters are coming out
            > > > to be known--he states it is now time! Again, it is time for
            > > > Joan to be an eck master. . . . Anyway, this is what I saw in
            > > > the book and I still believe that was Klemp's primary motivation
            > > > to write the book when he did. I also believe that Klemp was
            > > > planning to announce some changes in the leadership of
            > > > eckankar, positioning Joan in a bigger role of power so that
            > > > she could "officially" assist him in his declining years as
            > > > master of the universe. Now, I don't have those feelings of
            > > > a big announcement in that regard coming out publicly to
            > > > the chelas soon, if ever! I guess the chelas will have to get it
            > > > on the inner! LOL!
            > > >
            > > > Seriously, though, positioning Joan in such a way before the
            > > > chelas would at the very least give her some clout if Klemp
            > > > became disabled or dead. I'm sure Klemp is recalling
            > > > what happened when PT suddenly died and how Gail then
            > > > selected the next L.E.M. mahanta in a dream and then later
            > > > married him! Hey, is Don Ginn married??? : )
            > > >
            > > > There are big changes coming in the hierarchial structure
            > > > of the eckankar org--but not sure when it will be announced.
            > > > Maybe Klemp has decided not to appear so frail for the time
            > > > being as he continues his scheming to remain where he is
            > > > in the seat of eck power as long as he can! He's changed his
            > > > course a little bit for now, so I foresee a very boring up-coming
            > > > EWWS! It will be pretty much the same old eckancrap!
            > > >
            > > > Chelas, I advise that you save your time and money by staying
            > > > home . . . or if you're truly in the mood to travel, go some
            > > > place fun and warm for a change! : )
            > > >
            > > > Mish
            > > >
            > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
            > > > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > Hi All,
            > > > > Yes, it seems that Don might be the next LEM while
            > > > > Klemp remains the "full" Mahanta. Of course there is,
            > > > > still, the possibility that Joan is made the Co-LEM
            > > > > (since a female could only share this position, due to
            > > > > "their" negative atoms).
            > > > >
            > > > > As a "junior" and/or Co-LEM (under the guidance &
            > > > > supervision of the "full" LEM/Mahanta) Joan could take
            > > > > over, even more, duties for her husband at the ESC.
            > > > >
            > > > > Or, Don can be given these duties as a "junior" LEM while
            > > > > Joan continues her role at the ESC while spying on Don
            > > > > for HK!
            > > > >
            > > > > Anyway, it's a win/win for them right!
            > > > >
            > > > > I wonder... Would Joan be able to take orders from Don,
            > > > > or will she, only, be obeying the Living ECK... Mahanta
            > > > > like Marge?
            > > > >
            > > > > Prometheus
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > > mish wrote:
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > Hi, Liz!
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > It seems this attorney was thinking outside of the box! : ) When we
            > > > > > close ourselves off from the outside world by joining a cult like
            > > > > > eckankar, we box ourselves into a small isolated tunnel like place and
            > > > > > can forget the basic things in life like "your family comes first."
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > Mish
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > Liz wrote:
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > Hi Mish and all,
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > I am surprised too that eckankar doesn't go into further detail, explaining
            > > > > > how a will should be written so family members can not contest such a
            > > > > > donation. (or do they?)
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > When I was still a member, my DH and I had wills drawn up through an
            > > > > > attorney I use for family issues. I questioned how a portion could be left
            > > > > > to my church. My attorney gave me a funny look and said "your family should
            > > > > > always come first"! We had an interesting conversation, and in the end I
            > > > > > didn't leave anything to eckankar. ;-) All it takes is discussing
            > > > > > something of this nature with an outsider, and they tend to have a much
            > > > > > better way of putting the important things into perspective.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Liz
            > > > > >
            > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Mish wrote:
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > Here's the exact statement posted by Bob Hepple on the
            > > > > > California Satsang Society Chela News & Events publication
            > > > > > regarding raising money for their building fund:
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > "How can I donate? There are many ways that you can donate.
            > > > > > Enclosed is an envelope and donation form that will allow
            > > > > > you to receive a tax receipt for your check or credit card
            > > > > > donation. Also enclosed are two brochures, published by
            > > > > > ECKANKAR Spiritual Center, that explain how to bequeath
            > > > > > the California Satsang Society in your will or living trust,
            > > > > > or make the Society a beneficiary of your retirement,
            > > > > > pension plan, or life insurance policy."
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > This very plainly states how such cult groups like eckankar go
            > > > > > after members' money.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > <snip>
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Another disturbing thing is how blatantly eckankar goes after
            > > > > > members money including pensions, life insurance and other
            > > > > > money that most people bequeath to surviving family members.
            > > > > > This shows how callous eckankar is regarding family structure
            > > > > > and well-being. Eckankar breaks down family ties in order to
            > > > > > get the family money! But of course that is what all cults are
            > > > > > after--bleeding chelas dry but making them imagine they are
            > > > > > getting something in the bargain, a stairway to heaven, perhaps!
            > > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • prometheus_973
            I was thinking about what Klemp said about Gross holding onto the Rod of ECK Power beyond his time and was, therefore, burned by it. If this is true that
            Message 5 of 15 , Oct 6, 2007
              I was thinking about what Klemp said about Gross
              holding onto the Rod of ECK Power beyond his time
              and was, therefore, "burned" by it.

              If this is true that Gross should have passed the Rod
              to Klemp in 1980 (or to someone else) can Eckists,
              then, really blame Gross (for his actions) anymore than
              they could blame Klemp for slowing their spiritual growth
              (initiations)? What is more important for ECKists? Fiscal
              Responsibility, Buildings, or Initiations? I was, mostly,
              focused on spiritual growth... Initiations!

              Actually, Klemp has more blame by hanging onto
              this Power way longer than any 20th Century LEM,
              and for delaying and limiting initiations. There should
              be at least 33 9ths, 333 8ths, and 3,333 7ths after
              25 years of "leadership." Sure, this would make the org
              very "top heavy" but so what! It should be! Aren't Eckists
              supposed to be the "cream of the crop?" Why then don't
              the initiations reflect this? See, this is just one of
              many reasons why the long-time Eckists want to see
              Klemp step down.

              HK restructured the org and moved the headquarters
              in order to have Total Control over the EK Board of
              Trustees. The RESA structure is the extended arm of
              this control.

              What were viewed as inappropiate actions by Gross
              were really just the "effects" of hanging onto the Rod
              beyond his time. DG's rationale and thinking was off
              balance and askewed. Consideration and understanding
              are still lacking for this phenomonia of holding onto
              the "Rod" beyond the time the LEM should. Klemp is
              still holding a grudge!

              Even today, the RESA police spy on Eckists with informers
              as they ferret out those who are Not supposed to even
              speak Darwin's name! And, let's face it, there will never
              be discussions of the "positive" elements concerning those
              10 lost years of EK History. This is extremely strange since
              most Higher Initiates (6-14) have most of their initiations
              from those 10 years under Gross!

              Klemp's chelas, from Oct. 22, 1981, are mostly 4ths and
              5ths! Let's face it, according to EK Dogma Chelas, H.I.s
              are Not Established on the SOUL PLANE "until" they have
              become 6ths!

              This 6th initiation is the "proof" that they have completed
              all of the trails and tests for the 5th initiation. I wonder
              if this was always the case? Or, did Klemp redefine this
              dogma (with these restrictions) "after" he slowed the
              initiations down?

              Therefore, Klemp might want to hold onto his MAHANTA
              position, until, he can get the majority of "his" Chelas to
              the 6th initiation. Maybe this is why he slowed initiations
              down in the first place? Maybe it was used as a ploy, along
              with building structures, to insure that he would need to
              be the LEM and/or Mahanta for 25-30 years or longer!

              Yes, Klemp is very selfish and has done ECK Chelas an
              even greater injustice than Gross ever did. Klemp's focus
              has been on the tangible instead of the intangible.

              Prometheus

              ***
              Prometheus wrote:
              >
              > Hi Mish,
              > I just read your post. Good one! Yes, it does seem
              > like Klemp is taking an awfully long time to "train"
              > a replacement. HK's "Wonderful" book has
              > a 2005 copyright and he states it will take him
              > "several" more years to train someone! A "few"
              > means 3-4 right? Therefore, "several" would be
              > 4-5 or more right? Or, is Klemp incompetent at
              > counting as well? If Klemp is being honest and
              > is not trying to blind-side his chelas it would seem
              > that his replacement won't be ready until, at least,
              > Oct. 22, 2009. However, ECKists must always keep
              > in mind the Catch-22 rule!
              >
              > However, has Klemp ever really been open, honest,
              > or clear about anything? Hmmmmm. The closest
              > he came to this was when he had to admit (because
              > of it being Public Record) that he was locked-up in
              > a mental institution. However, Klemp then put his
              > Damage Control Spin on this incident (lemons into
              > lemonade?) as he typically blamed or found fault with
              > everyone at the mental health facility except himself.
              > Re-read it for yourself and see! Klemp has never taken
              > Responsibility for his harsh words, judgments, or negative
              > actions and reactions toward others nor has he, ever,
              > shown any Empathy, tolerance, or compassion. These
              > are virtures and indicators of a higher Love.
              >
              > I challenge ECKists to point out where, in HK's vast
              > writings, he has Ever Admitted to having made a Mistake,
              > or of Showning Empathy toward others... especially
              > to non-ECKists! One can rationalize that it is showing
              > "tough love" when involving chelas, but how about
              > with others? And No, it's Not Detachment either! It's
              > the Catch-22 Mahanta Consciousness Ploy of Denial.
              > ECKists are stupid and delusional to believe that everything
              > they are told is true... except when they validate it via
              > Imagination and with the use of a "charged word!" LOL!
              > As Below So Above and Vice-Versa?!
              >
              > Yes, HK is always pointing the finger and blaming others.
              > Klemp went to the 1971 ECK Worldwide instead of to his
              > own father's funeral to be with his mother, brothers, and
              > sister. Then, HK makes excuses for this insensitive and
              > narcissistic behaviour by quoting Jesus, in his year 2000
              > "Autobiography," while Talking About having Love for God.
              > Then Klemp tells ECKists that they must have a "Loving Heart"
              > and be an example for others. What a hypocrite!
              >
              > BTW- Here's what Klemp had to say on Eckankar.org about
              > "when" Twitchell first met Rebazar.
              >
              > "Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951 in the foothills of the
              > Himalayas near Darjeeling." [Hmmmm. This Darjee(ling) sounds
              > like Darji]
              >
              > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html
              >
              > Therefore, if you believe this crap, Rebazar had from
              > 1951-1965 to "train" Twitchell for the LEM position.
              >
              > Rebazar, during a time when the World's Consciousness
              > was lower, took 14 years to "train" Twitchell.
              >
              > Then, Twitchell had from 1965-1971 to "train" Gross. This
              > is only 6 years. Maybe it took "less" time to train Darwin
              > because the World's Consciousness, even due to wars, etc.,
              > has expanded even more.
              >
              > Gross, then, took 10 years to "train" Klemp. Actually,
              > Gross was going to hand the Rod to Klemp in 1980 after
              > 9 years, but took an extra year to finish Klemp's "training."
              >
              > Here's the score on passing the Rod:
              >
              > RT-PT=14 years
              > PT-DG=6 years
              > DG-HK=10 years
              > HK-??=25 years
              >
              > Does it look like Klemp has, maybe, held onto his Power
              > over these EK chelas Way Too Long?
              >
              > [BTW-HK's chelas are those First initiated After Oct. 22, 1981.]
              >
              > It looks like HK (the most advanced Mahanta ever, he claims)
              > Should Not have taken more than 15 years to "train" someone,
              > and that's giving him a lot of "wiggle" room.
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > mish wrote:
              > >
              > > Hi, All!
              > >
              > > What Prometheus wrote here reminded me of something
              > > Klemp wrote in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters." Prometheus
              > > wrote:
              > >
              > > "Isn't it interesting that Klemp, at the 1983 H.I. Meeting,
              > > said that he would be the LEM/Mahanta for 10 to 20
              > > years in order to complete his mission. And, HK boasted
              > > that unlike Darwin he would Let Go of the Rod of ECK
              > > Power before it burned him and affected his health.
              > >
              > > <snipped>
              > >
              > > Anyway, Klemp has held onto the Rod of ECK Power
              > > with a death grip, and has gone way beyond the 20
              > > years promised to complete his mission (of building
              > > structures)."
              > >
              > > On pages 235-236, in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters,"
              > > Klemp answered in a chela's dream "the length of his
              > > service as the Living ECK Master. How long would he
              > > serve in that position? Were there others in training?"
              > >
              > > Klemp wrote, "The Master assured her that a few
              > > initiates were indeed in training for leadership in ECK,
              > > but no one was ready yet to assume the responsibility.
              > > It might take several years or many more for the first
              > > one to complete all the tests. Accordingly, the Master
              > > would continue for another cycle as the Mahanta, the
              > > Living ECK Master. . . . "
              > >
              > > Doesn't sound like Klemp is ready to step down yet,
              > > and that is why I believe after reading what Klemp wrote
              > > about Joan in his book, that he was setting the stage
              > > for her elevating to a position of great assistence to
              > > the godman! I would think that Don Ginn, Peter Skelsky,
              > > and the other hopeful "candidates" waiting in the wings
              > > for their chance to grasp the rod of eck power would
              > > be discouraged after reading Klemp's book. I agree
              > > that Klemp seems to have a death grip on his power--
              > > he just can't and won't let go of it! : )
              > >
              > > Mish
              > >
              > > p.s. Remember that Don Ginn and Peter Skelsky were
              > > both on the Board of Trustees and helped Klemp to
              > > boot Darwin. These guys were at least 7th initiates
              > > 25 years ago, so how embarrassing it must be to them that
              > > it is taking so long for the godman Klemp to train them!
              > > Either they are slow learners or Klemp is, as we know,
              > > incompetent and a fraud--Klemp has none of the powers he
              > > claims! Well, stupidity does abound in eckankar for sure!
              > >
              > > ################################
              > >
              > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
              > > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Hi Mish,
              > > > Excellent post! On the other hand... the more I think
              > > > about it... perhaps Don will take the place of Peter
              > > > Skelsky and Peter will become the next LEM.
              > > >
              > > > Isn't it interesting that Klemp, at the 1983 H.I. Meeting,
              > > > said that he would be the LEM/Mahanta for 10 to 20
              > > > years in order to complete his mission. And, HK boasted
              > > > that unlike Darwin he would Let Go of the Rod of ECK
              > > > Power before it burned him and affected his health.
              > > >
              > > > Actually, I didn't see where the "Rod" had "burned" DG
              > > > and, therefore, supposedly affected his health. HK and
              > > > the Board of Trustees are the ones that burned DG!
              > > >
              > > > Anyway, Klemp has held onto the Rod of ECK Power
              > > > with a death grip, and has gone way beyond the 20
              > > > years promised to complete his mission (of building
              > > > structures).
              > > >
              > > > What should have been Klemp's mission? Isn't the real
              > > > mission of a Mahanta: To take MORE Souls into the HIGHEST
              > > > Planes of the Sugmad; To do this more directly or FASTER
              > > > than any other religion or spiritual path could; To set
              > > > Souls FREE, thus, they too become MASTERS?!
              > > >
              > > > Instead, Klemp slowed Initiations down, and told ECKists
              > > > that he would! Why did he Not Speed these up at some
              > > > point? Look at the long-time 7th initiates that have been
              > > > 7ths... for 20 plus years! What's with that? Why aren't
              > > > there more 8ths? I know that there are 9ths... including
              > > > Joan! Why the Glass Ceiling for long-time 7ths and former
              > > > RESAs? What does Klemp fear, or is this another effect
              > > > from Not having Let Go (of the Rod) when he should have?!
              > > >
              > > > Yes, Klemp was burned a long time ago when one looks
              > > > at his EMR problems beginning around 1990. Look at
              > > > his health problems of the last few years! So, I guess
              > > > his reasoning is, still, that his replacement wasn't ready.
              > > > Is that the way things are supposed to work in Eckankar?
              > > >
              > > > A replacement is ready when the need arises just like
              > > > when the chela is ready the Master will appear. Klemp
              > > > can tell chelas anything at anytime and chelas will accept
              > > > it because if they can't then something must be wrong
              > > > with them. The possibility can never exist that something
              > > > is wrong with Klemp or that he is lying. Yet, didn't HK
              > > > say that Twitchell 'twisted facts?' And, Marman said that
              > > > Twitchell used half-truths while Rich (another ECKist)
              > > > claims that PT plagarized 7% of his works! Didn't DG
              > > > "fall" from Grace? It's obvious that Klemp had fallen long
              > > > ago... circa 1990 perhaps?! The truth does have a bite
              > > > to it at times and this is why people will deny it for as
              > > > long as they can. This is why HK wants ECKists to "imagine"
              > > > that everything is fine with his leadership. The mind is
              > > > very powerful... just look at what it can do when under
              > > > a concentrated focus... like with hypnosis.
              > > >
              > > > So why do ECKists believe Klemp's version of truth? it's
              > > > because they fear the real truth that he's a fraud. What
              > > > else do they have to believe in? Eckankar is their life...
              > > > their crutch... they think. But there is much more! And
              > > > one can only discover this when they have Let Go...
              > > > Break the Chains and stand in a clear new light as a free
              > > > Soul.
              > > >
              > > > However, and on the other hand, after the fiasco with
              > > > Darwin one would think that ECKists could handle the
              > > > truth. And, wouldn't Klemp want to show the finances
              > > > to the General Membership in an Annual Report. That
              > > > doesn't happen though does it! Instead, Klemp puts the
              > > > fear of asking questions into chelas because questioning
              > > > his authority on anything will cause a chela to be held back
              > > > on Initiations. Never complain in your IRO or HIRO because
              > > > it will be put into your file at the ESC. "Good" ECKists must
              > > > always practice the "Law of Silence" and "Surrender" their
              > > > ability to think.
              > > >
              > > > So what's all this mean? It means that most ECKists
              > > > really want to see a change in leadership, but can't say
              > > > so. Klemp hasn't done anything except to create more
              > > > structures and write a ton of worthless books. Why are
              > > > these books worthless? Because the "spiritual" message
              > > > is way too simple, of lower consciousness, and is redundant
              > > > because one can find similar books everywhere and by
              > > > other secular or religious writers. Besides, these books
              > > > of Klemp's are only directed to the uninitiated public or
              > > > to the vast number of simple-minded chelas that don't
              > > > "Get It." These are Klemp's other Money Makers because
              > > > he gets 50% of the royalities!
              > > >
              > > > ECKists have been duped for a long time and for 25
              > > > years by Klemp! Even this narcissist knows that it has
              > > > to end soon. But why travel to Minneapolis to see the
              > > > new LEM when you've seen them before and will see and
              > > > hear from them more in the future? And, if you're a
              > > > True Blue ECKist, of higher consciousness, you should be
              > > > able to project yourself there, or see it on the Inner. Right!
              > > >
              > > > Prometheus
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Mish wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > Hi, Everyone!
              > > > >
              > > > > When I read Klemp's book "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," I
              > > > > saw this book as a tool Klemp had created to elevate Joan
              > > > > to an eck master, and I still believe that was one of the basic
              > > > > purposes of the book. Klemp thinks he can cleverly insert subtle
              > > > > ideas that when the reader goes back later, can say, oh, yes,
              > > > > it's in there--how could one miss it! LOL! So, it is in "Those
              > > > > Wonderful ECK Masters" that Joan appears in some chelas
              > > > > dreams doing what eck masters are supposed to do, helping
              > > > > chelas to find the mahanta! Also, in the chapter on Kata Daki,
              > > > > Klemp explains how more female eck masters are coming out
              > > > > to be known--he states it is now time! Again, it is time for
              > > > > Joan to be an eck master. . . . Anyway, this is what I saw in
              > > > > the book and I still believe that was Klemp's primary motivation
              > > > > to write the book when he did. I also believe that Klemp was
              > > > > planning to announce some changes in the leadership of
              > > > > eckankar, positioning Joan in a bigger role of power so that
              > > > > she could "officially" assist him in his declining years as
              > > > > master of the universe. Now, I don't have those feelings of
              > > > > a big announcement in that regard coming out publicly to
              > > > > the chelas soon, if ever! I guess the chelas will have to get it
              > > > > on the inner! LOL!
              > > > >
              > > > > Seriously, though, positioning Joan in such a way before the
              > > > > chelas would at the very least give her some clout if Klemp
              > > > > became disabled or dead. I'm sure Klemp is recalling
              > > > > what happened when PT suddenly died and how Gail then
              > > > > selected the next L.E.M. mahanta in a dream and then later
              > > > > married him! Hey, is Don Ginn married??? : )
              > > > >
              > > > > There are big changes coming in the hierarchial structure
              > > > > of the eckankar org--but not sure when it will be announced.
              > > > > Maybe Klemp has decided not to appear so frail for the time
              > > > > being as he continues his scheming to remain where he is
              > > > > in the seat of eck power as long as he can! He's changed his
              > > > > course a little bit for now, so I foresee a very boring up-coming
              > > > > EWWS! It will be pretty much the same old eckancrap!
              > > > >
              > > > > Chelas, I advise that you save your time and money by staying
              > > > > home . . . or if you're truly in the mood to travel, go some
              > > > > place fun and warm for a change! : )
              > > > >
              > > > > Mish
              > > > >
              > > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
              > > > > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Hi All,
              > > > > > Yes, it seems that Don might be the next LEM while
              > > > > > Klemp remains the "full" Mahanta. Of course there is,
              > > > > > still, the possibility that Joan is made the Co-LEM
              > > > > > (since a female could only share this position, due to
              > > > > > "their" negative atoms).
              > > > > >
              > > > > > As a "junior" and/or Co-LEM (under the guidance &
              > > > > > supervision of the "full" LEM/Mahanta) Joan could take
              > > > > > over, even more, duties for her husband at the ESC.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Or, Don can be given these duties as a "junior" LEM while
              > > > > > Joan continues her role at the ESC while spying on Don
              > > > > > for HK!
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Anyway, it's a win/win for them right!
              > > > > >
              > > > > > I wonder... Would Joan be able to take orders from Don,
              > > > > > or will she, only, be obeying the Living ECK... Mahanta
              > > > > > like Marge?
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Prometheus
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > > mish wrote:
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Hi, Liz!
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > It seems this attorney was thinking outside of the box! : ) When we
              > > > > > > close ourselves off from the outside world by joining a cult like
              > > > > > > eckankar, we box ourselves into a small isolated tunnel like place and
              > > > > > > can forget the basic things in life like "your family comes first."
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Mish
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Liz wrote:
              > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Hi Mish and all,
              > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > I am surprised too that eckankar doesn't go into further detail, explaining
              > > > > > > how a will should be written so family members can not contest such a
              > > > > > > donation. (or do they?)
              > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > When I was still a member, my DH and I had wills drawn up through an
              > > > > > > attorney I use for family issues. I questioned how a portion could be left
              > > > > > > to my church. My attorney gave me a funny look and said "your family
              should
              > > > > > > always come first"! We had an interesting conversation, and in the end I
              > > > > > > didn't leave anything to eckankar. ;-) All it takes is discussing
              > > > > > > something of this nature with an outsider, and they tend to have a much
              > > > > > > better way of putting the important things into perspective.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Liz
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Mish wrote:
              > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Here's the exact statement posted by Bob Hepple on the
              > > > > > > California Satsang Society Chela News & Events publication
              > > > > > > regarding raising money for their building fund:
              > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > "How can I donate? There are many ways that you can donate.
              > > > > > > Enclosed is an envelope and donation form that will allow
              > > > > > > you to receive a tax receipt for your check or credit card
              > > > > > > donation. Also enclosed are two brochures, published by
              > > > > > > ECKANKAR Spiritual Center, that explain how to bequeath
              > > > > > > the California Satsang Society in your will or living trust,
              > > > > > > or make the Society a beneficiary of your retirement,
              > > > > > > pension plan, or life insurance policy."
              > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > This very plainly states how such cult groups like eckankar go
              > > > > > > after members' money.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > <snip>
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Another disturbing thing is how blatantly eckankar goes after
              > > > > > > members money including pensions, life insurance and other
              > > > > > > money that most people bequeath to surviving family members.
              > > > > > > This shows how callous eckankar is regarding family structure
              > > > > > > and well-being. Eckankar breaks down family ties in order to
              > > > > > > get the family money! But of course that is what all cults are
              > > > > > > after--bleeding chelas dry but making them imagine they are
              > > > > > > getting something in the bargain, a stairway to heaven, perhaps!
              > > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • mishmisha9
              LET S DISCUSS KLEMP MORE! WHAT S WRONG WITH HIM AND ALL HIS FOIBLES AS A SELF-PROCLAIMED GODMAN! IT IS NOT ALL ABOUT TWITCHELL! For me, actually, eckankar is
              Message 6 of 15 , Oct 6, 2007
                LET'S DISCUSS KLEMP MORE! WHAT'S WRONG WITH
                HIM AND ALL HIS FOIBLES AS A SELF-PROCLAIMED
                GODMAN! IT IS NOT ALL ABOUT TWITCHELL!

                For me, actually, eckankar is just a man-made new
                age religion. Why and what Twitchell did in creating it
                can be debated until the cows come home. Everyone
                interested in this strange little known cult the least
                little bit takes one side or the other in the debate which
                basically comes down to how important or insignificant
                the plagiarisms and lies are to the eckankar teachings.
                Those who remain in eckankar have chosen to miminalize
                the fraud that has taken place and are quite confortable
                to remain in the delusion and illusion of the eck teachings.
                They support Klemp as he continues the lies and deceptions,
                keeping silent as he also molds eckankar to fit his
                narrow-minded, anti-social and narcissistic personality.
                Many eckists become like him which is not something one
                should really strive for! : )

                But to take this to a present day discussion, why do we not,
                meaning eckists and non-eckists alike debate the leadership
                of Klemp??? Klemp has been the mahanta/L.E.M. far longer
                than his predecessors, their years combined. It seems to me
                that we need to look long and hard at what Klemp has done
                and is doing since taking the reins of eckankar and shaping it
                into his creation. To me, what eckankar is today is greatly flawed
                by Klemp's shifty hands! He is no godman--how can anyone
                consider such a silly, nerdy looking and odd speaking man a
                god incarnate? Just looking at him and listening to his stupid
                talks makes the whole org look ridiculous!! He's a joke and
                there's nothing special or original about him! LOL!

                My guess is that many long time eckists are waiting, still
                waiting, for the winds of change to happen--when Klemp
                either steps down or is removed from his throne. I believe
                that many of the true eckists are just waiting for a power
                shift in leadership which they hope will then bring the outer
                org in line with what they are feeling/experiencing on their
                inner! They are hopeful that eckankar will become the
                religion they have longed for! : )

                Klemp must fear these patient chelas very much, and thus, he
                has slowed down the initiations in order to remain in control.
                It seems this is the true reason for being stingy about the
                initiations! Klemp is a stingy and fearful little old man--he
                is no guru or godman! So again I ask, why not discuss Klemp,
                and let Twitchell be for the most part? Let's get to the heart of
                the matter which is what Klemp is doing with eckankar! The
                continuing discussions about how eckankar began and how
                Twitchell established it, speculating on his motivations, etc.
                are all distractions from what needs to be analyzed today--
                that being Harold Klemp and what he has done to eckankar!
                My gut feeling is that Twitchell would not be happy with what
                Harold has done to his creation! LOL!

                BTW, I didn't leave eckankar because of David Lane's book-I
                haven't read it. I left because of Ford Johnson's "Confessions
                of a God Seeker." Many eckists left after becoming aware of
                Ford's book. No need to give Lane all the credit. Others have left
                because they saw through the veil of illusion--they knew
                something wasn't right in belonging to the eck cult and they
                hit the road on their own! There are many reasons and ways
                that one can wake up to the truth about eckankar . . . and get
                out! : )

                Mish

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                >
                > I was thinking about what Klemp said about Gross
                > holding onto the Rod of ECK Power beyond his time
                > and was, therefore, "burned" by it.
                >
                > If this is true that Gross should have passed the Rod
                > to Klemp in 1980 (or to someone else) can Eckists,
                > then, really blame Gross (for his actions) anymore than
                > they could blame Klemp for slowing their spiritual growth
                > (initiations)? What is more important for ECKists? Fiscal
                > Responsibility, Buildings, or Initiations? I was, mostly,
                > focused on spiritual growth... Initiations!
                >
                > Actually, Klemp has more blame by hanging onto
                > this Power way longer than any 20th Century LEM,
                > and for delaying and limiting initiations. There should
                > be at least 33 9ths, 333 8ths, and 3,333 7ths after
                > 25 years of "leadership." Sure, this would make the org
                > very "top heavy" but so what! It should be! Aren't Eckists
                > supposed to be the "cream of the crop?" Why then don't
                > the initiations reflect this? See, this is just one of
                > many reasons why the long-time Eckists want to see
                > Klemp step down.
                >
                > HK restructured the org and moved the headquarters
                > in order to have Total Control over the EK Board of
                > Trustees. The RESA structure is the extended arm of
                > this control.
                >
                > What were viewed as inappropiate actions by Gross
                > were really just the "effects" of hanging onto the Rod
                > beyond his time. DG's rationale and thinking was off
                > balance and askewed. Consideration and understanding
                > are still lacking for this phenomonia of holding onto
                > the "Rod" beyond the time the LEM should. Klemp is
                > still holding a grudge!
                >
                > Even today, the RESA police spy on Eckists with informers
                > as they ferret out those who are Not supposed to even
                > speak Darwin's name! And, let's face it, there will never
                > be discussions of the "positive" elements concerning those
                > 10 lost years of EK History. This is extremely strange since
                > most Higher Initiates (6-14) have most of their initiations
                > from those 10 years under Gross!
                >
                > Klemp's chelas, from Oct. 22, 1981, are mostly 4ths and
                > 5ths! Let's face it, according to EK Dogma Chelas, H.I.s
                > are Not Established on the SOUL PLANE "until" they have
                > become 6ths!
                >
                > This 6th initiation is the "proof" that they have completed
                > all of the trails and tests for the 5th initiation. I wonder
                > if this was always the case? Or, did Klemp redefine this
                > dogma (with these restrictions) "after" he slowed the
                > initiations down?
                >
                > Therefore, Klemp might want to hold onto his MAHANTA
                > position, until, he can get the majority of "his" Chelas to
                > the 6th initiation. Maybe this is why he slowed initiations
                > down in the first place? Maybe it was used as a ploy, along
                > with building structures, to insure that he would need to
                > be the LEM and/or Mahanta for 25-30 years or longer!
                >
                > Yes, Klemp is very selfish and has done ECK Chelas an
                > even greater injustice than Gross ever did. Klemp's focus
                > has been on the tangible instead of the intangible.
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                > ***
                > Prometheus wrote:
                > >
                > > Hi Mish,
                > > I just read your post. Good one! Yes, it does seem
                > > like Klemp is taking an awfully long time to "train"
                > > a replacement. HK's "Wonderful" book has
                > > a 2005 copyright and he states it will take him
                > > "several" more years to train someone! A "few"
                > > means 3-4 right? Therefore, "several" would be
                > > 4-5 or more right? Or, is Klemp incompetent at
                > > counting as well? If Klemp is being honest and
                > > is not trying to blind-side his chelas it would seem
                > > that his replacement won't be ready until, at least,
                > > Oct. 22, 2009. However, ECKists must always keep
                > > in mind the Catch-22 rule!
                > >
                > > However, has Klemp ever really been open, honest,
                > > or clear about anything? Hmmmmm. The closest
                > > he came to this was when he had to admit (because
                > > of it being Public Record) that he was locked-up in
                > > a mental institution. However, Klemp then put his
                > > Damage Control Spin on this incident (lemons into
                > > lemonade?) as he typically blamed or found fault with
                > > everyone at the mental health facility except himself.
                > > Re-read it for yourself and see! Klemp has never taken
                > > Responsibility for his harsh words, judgments, or negative
                > > actions and reactions toward others nor has he, ever,
                > > shown any Empathy, tolerance, or compassion. These
                > > are virtures and indicators of a higher Love.
                > >
                > > I challenge ECKists to point out where, in HK's vast
                > > writings, he has Ever Admitted to having made a Mistake,
                > > or of Showning Empathy toward others... especially
                > > to non-ECKists! One can rationalize that it is showing
                > > "tough love" when involving chelas, but how about
                > > with others? And No, it's Not Detachment either! It's
                > > the Catch-22 Mahanta Consciousness Ploy of Denial.
                > > ECKists are stupid and delusional to believe that everything
                > > they are told is true... except when they validate it via
                > > Imagination and with the use of a "charged word!" LOL!
                > > As Below So Above and Vice-Versa?!
                > >
                > > Yes, HK is always pointing the finger and blaming others.
                > > Klemp went to the 1971 ECK Worldwide instead of to his
                > > own father's funeral to be with his mother, brothers, and
                > > sister. Then, HK makes excuses for this insensitive and
                > > narcissistic behaviour by quoting Jesus, in his year 2000
                > > "Autobiography," while Talking About having Love for God.
                > > Then Klemp tells ECKists that they must have a "Loving Heart"
                > > and be an example for others. What a hypocrite!
                > >
                > > BTW- Here's what Klemp had to say on Eckankar.org about
                > > "when" Twitchell first met Rebazar.
                > >
                > > "Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951 in the foothills of the
                > > Himalayas near Darjeeling." [Hmmmm. This Darjee(ling) sounds
                > > like Darji]
                > >
                > > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html
                > >
                > > Therefore, if you believe this crap, Rebazar had from
                > > 1951-1965 to "train" Twitchell for the LEM position.
                > >
                > > Rebazar, during a time when the World's Consciousness
                > > was lower, took 14 years to "train" Twitchell.
                > >
                > > Then, Twitchell had from 1965-1971 to "train" Gross. This
                > > is only 6 years. Maybe it took "less" time to train Darwin
                > > because the World's Consciousness, even due to wars, etc.,
                > > has expanded even more.
                > >
                > > Gross, then, took 10 years to "train" Klemp. Actually,
                > > Gross was going to hand the Rod to Klemp in 1980 after
                > > 9 years, but took an extra year to finish Klemp's "training."
                > >
                > > Here's the score on passing the Rod:
                > >
                > > RT-PT=14 years
                > > PT-DG=6 years
                > > DG-HK=10 years
                > > HK-??=25 years
                > >
                > > Does it look like Klemp has, maybe, held onto his Power
                > > over these EK chelas Way Too Long?
                > >
                > > [BTW-HK's chelas are those First initiated After Oct. 22, 1981.]
                > >
                > > It looks like HK (the most advanced Mahanta ever, he claims)
                > > Should Not have taken more than 15 years to "train" someone,
                > > and that's giving him a lot of "wiggle" room.
                > >
                > > Prometheus
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > mish wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Hi, All!
                > > >
                > > > What Prometheus wrote here reminded me of something
                > > > Klemp wrote in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters." Prometheus
                > > > wrote:
                > > >
                > > > "Isn't it interesting that Klemp, at the 1983 H.I. Meeting,
                > > > said that he would be the LEM/Mahanta for 10 to 20
                > > > years in order to complete his mission. And, HK boasted
                > > > that unlike Darwin he would Let Go of the Rod of ECK
                > > > Power before it burned him and affected his health.
                > > >
                > > > <snipped>
                > > >
                > > > Anyway, Klemp has held onto the Rod of ECK Power
                > > > with a death grip, and has gone way beyond the 20
                > > > years promised to complete his mission (of building
                > > > structures)."
                > > >
                > > > On pages 235-236, in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters,"
                > > > Klemp answered in a chela's dream "the length of his
                > > > service as the Living ECK Master. How long would he
                > > > serve in that position? Were there others in training?"
                > > >
                > > > Klemp wrote, "The Master assured her that a few
                > > > initiates were indeed in training for leadership in ECK,
                > > > but no one was ready yet to assume the responsibility.
                > > > It might take several years or many more for the first
                > > > one to complete all the tests. Accordingly, the Master
                > > > would continue for another cycle as the Mahanta, the
                > > > Living ECK Master. . . . "
                > > >
                > > > Doesn't sound like Klemp is ready to step down yet,
                > > > and that is why I believe after reading what Klemp wrote
                > > > about Joan in his book, that he was setting the stage
                > > > for her elevating to a position of great assistence to
                > > > the godman! I would think that Don Ginn, Peter Skelsky,
                > > > and the other hopeful "candidates" waiting in the wings
                > > > for their chance to grasp the rod of eck power would
                > > > be discouraged after reading Klemp's book. I agree
                > > > that Klemp seems to have a death grip on his power--
                > > > he just can't and won't let go of it! : )
                > > >
                > > > Mish
                > > >
                > > > p.s. Remember that Don Ginn and Peter Skelsky were
                > > > both on the Board of Trustees and helped Klemp to
                > > > boot Darwin. These guys were at least 7th initiates
                > > > 25 years ago, so how embarrassing it must be to them that
                > > > it is taking so long for the godman Klemp to train them!
                > > > Either they are slow learners or Klemp is, as we know,
                > > > incompetent and a fraud--Klemp has none of the powers he
                > > > claims! Well, stupidity does abound in eckankar for sure!
                > > >
                > > > ################################
                > > >
                > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                > > > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > Hi Mish,
                > > > > Excellent post! On the other hand... the more I think
                > > > > about it... perhaps Don will take the place of Peter
                > > > > Skelsky and Peter will become the next LEM.
                > > > >
                > > > > Isn't it interesting that Klemp, at the 1983 H.I. Meeting,
                > > > > said that he would be the LEM/Mahanta for 10 to 20
                > > > > years in order to complete his mission. And, HK boasted
                > > > > that unlike Darwin he would Let Go of the Rod of ECK
                > > > > Power before it burned him and affected his health.
                > > > >
                > > > > Actually, I didn't see where the "Rod" had "burned" DG
                > > > > and, therefore, supposedly affected his health. HK and
                > > > > the Board of Trustees are the ones that burned DG!
                > > > >
                > > > > Anyway, Klemp has held onto the Rod of ECK Power
                > > > > with a death grip, and has gone way beyond the 20
                > > > > years promised to complete his mission (of building
                > > > > structures).
                > > > >
                > > > > What should have been Klemp's mission? Isn't the real
                > > > > mission of a Mahanta: To take MORE Souls into the HIGHEST
                > > > > Planes of the Sugmad; To do this more directly or FASTER
                > > > > than any other religion or spiritual path could; To set
                > > > > Souls FREE, thus, they too become MASTERS?!
                > > > >
                > > > > Instead, Klemp slowed Initiations down, and told ECKists
                > > > > that he would! Why did he Not Speed these up at some
                > > > > point? Look at the long-time 7th initiates that have been
                > > > > 7ths... for 20 plus years! What's with that? Why aren't
                > > > > there more 8ths? I know that there are 9ths... including
                > > > > Joan! Why the Glass Ceiling for long-time 7ths and former
                > > > > RESAs? What does Klemp fear, or is this another effect
                > > > > from Not having Let Go (of the Rod) when he should have?!
                > > > >
                > > > > Yes, Klemp was burned a long time ago when one looks
                > > > > at his EMR problems beginning around 1990. Look at
                > > > > his health problems of the last few years! So, I guess
                > > > > his reasoning is, still, that his replacement wasn't ready.
                > > > > Is that the way things are supposed to work in Eckankar?
                > > > >
                > > > > A replacement is ready when the need arises just like
                > > > > when the chela is ready the Master will appear. Klemp
                > > > > can tell chelas anything at anytime and chelas will accept
                > > > > it because if they can't then something must be wrong
                > > > > with them. The possibility can never exist that something
                > > > > is wrong with Klemp or that he is lying. Yet, didn't HK
                > > > > say that Twitchell 'twisted facts?' And, Marman said that
                > > > > Twitchell used half-truths while Rich (another ECKist)
                > > > > claims that PT plagarized 7% of his works! Didn't DG
                > > > > "fall" from Grace? It's obvious that Klemp had fallen long
                > > > > ago... circa 1990 perhaps?! The truth does have a bite
                > > > > to it at times and this is why people will deny it for as
                > > > > long as they can. This is why HK wants ECKists to "imagine"
                > > > > that everything is fine with his leadership. The mind is
                > > > > very powerful... just look at what it can do when under
                > > > > a concentrated focus... like with hypnosis.
                > > > >
                > > > > So why do ECKists believe Klemp's version of truth? it's
                > > > > because they fear the real truth that he's a fraud. What
                > > > > else do they have to believe in? Eckankar is their life...
                > > > > their crutch... they think. But there is much more! And
                > > > > one can only discover this when they have Let Go...
                > > > > Break the Chains and stand in a clear new light as a free
                > > > > Soul.
                > > > >
                > > > > However, and on the other hand, after the fiasco with
                > > > > Darwin one would think that ECKists could handle the
                > > > > truth. And, wouldn't Klemp want to show the finances
                > > > > to the General Membership in an Annual Report. That
                > > > > doesn't happen though does it! Instead, Klemp puts the
                > > > > fear of asking questions into chelas because questioning
                > > > > his authority on anything will cause a chela to be held back
                > > > > on Initiations. Never complain in your IRO or HIRO because
                > > > > it will be put into your file at the ESC. "Good" ECKists must
                > > > > always practice the "Law of Silence" and "Surrender" their
                > > > > ability to think.
                > > > >
                > > > > So what's all this mean? It means that most ECKists
                > > > > really want to see a change in leadership, but can't say
                > > > > so. Klemp hasn't done anything except to create more
                > > > > structures and write a ton of worthless books. Why are
                > > > > these books worthless? Because the "spiritual" message
                > > > > is way too simple, of lower consciousness, and is redundant
                > > > > because one can find similar books everywhere and by
                > > > > other secular or religious writers. Besides, these books
                > > > > of Klemp's are only directed to the uninitiated public or
                > > > > to the vast number of simple-minded chelas that don't
                > > > > "Get It." These are Klemp's other Money Makers because
                > > > > he gets 50% of the royalities!
                > > > >
                > > > > ECKists have been duped for a long time and for 25
                > > > > years by Klemp! Even this narcissist knows that it has
                > > > > to end soon. But why travel to Minneapolis to see the
                > > > > new LEM when you've seen them before and will see and
                > > > > hear from them more in the future? And, if you're a
                > > > > True Blue ECKist, of higher consciousness, you should be
                > > > > able to project yourself there, or see it on the Inner. Right!
                > > > >
                > > > > Prometheus
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > Mish wrote:
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Hi, Everyone!
                > > > > >
                > > > > > When I read Klemp's book "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," I
                > > > > > saw this book as a tool Klemp had created to elevate Joan
                > > > > > to an eck master, and I still believe that was one of the basic
                > > > > > purposes of the book. Klemp thinks he can cleverly insert subtle
                > > > > > ideas that when the reader goes back later, can say, oh, yes,
                > > > > > it's in there--how could one miss it! LOL! So, it is in "Those
                > > > > > Wonderful ECK Masters" that Joan appears in some chelas
                > > > > > dreams doing what eck masters are supposed to do, helping
                > > > > > chelas to find the mahanta! Also, in the chapter on Kata Daki,
                > > > > > Klemp explains how more female eck masters are coming out
                > > > > > to be known--he states it is now time! Again, it is time for
                > > > > > Joan to be an eck master. . . . Anyway, this is what I saw in
                > > > > > the book and I still believe that was Klemp's primary motivation
                > > > > > to write the book when he did. I also believe that Klemp was
                > > > > > planning to announce some changes in the leadership of
                > > > > > eckankar, positioning Joan in a bigger role of power so that
                > > > > > she could "officially" assist him in his declining years as
                > > > > > master of the universe. Now, I don't have those feelings of
                > > > > > a big announcement in that regard coming out publicly to
                > > > > > the chelas soon, if ever! I guess the chelas will have to get it
                > > > > > on the inner! LOL!
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Seriously, though, positioning Joan in such a way before the
                > > > > > chelas would at the very least give her some clout if Klemp
                > > > > > became disabled or dead. I'm sure Klemp is recalling
                > > > > > what happened when PT suddenly died and how Gail then
                > > > > > selected the next L.E.M. mahanta in a dream and then later
                > > > > > married him! Hey, is Don Ginn married??? : )
                > > > > >
                > > > > > There are big changes coming in the hierarchial structure
                > > > > > of the eckankar org--but not sure when it will be announced.
                > > > > > Maybe Klemp has decided not to appear so frail for the time
                > > > > > being as he continues his scheming to remain where he is
                > > > > > in the seat of eck power as long as he can! He's changed his
                > > > > > course a little bit for now, so I foresee a very boring up-coming
                > > > > > EWWS! It will be pretty much the same old eckancrap!
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Chelas, I advise that you save your time and money by staying
                > > > > > home . . . or if you're truly in the mood to travel, go some
                > > > > > place fun and warm for a change! : )
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Mish
                > > > > >
                > > > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                > > > > > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Hi All,
                > > > > > > Yes, it seems that Don might be the next LEM while
                > > > > > > Klemp remains the "full" Mahanta. Of course there is,
                > > > > > > still, the possibility that Joan is made the Co-LEM
                > > > > > > (since a female could only share this position, due to
                > > > > > > "their" negative atoms).
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > As a "junior" and/or Co-LEM (under the guidance &
                > > > > > > supervision of the "full" LEM/Mahanta) Joan could take
                > > > > > > over, even more, duties for her husband at the ESC.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Or, Don can be given these duties as a "junior" LEM while
                > > > > > > Joan continues her role at the ESC while spying on Don
                > > > > > > for HK!
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Anyway, it's a win/win for them right!
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > I wonder... Would Joan be able to take orders from Don,
                > > > > > > or will she, only, be obeying the Living ECK... Mahanta
                > > > > > > like Marge?
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Prometheus
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > mish wrote:
                > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > Hi, Liz!
                > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > It seems this attorney was thinking outside of the box! : ) When we
                > > > > > > > close ourselves off from the outside world by joining a cult like
                > > > > > > > eckankar, we box ourselves into a small isolated tunnel like place and
                > > > > > > > can forget the basic things in life like "your family comes first."
                > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > Mish
                > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > Liz wrote:
                > > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > Hi Mish and all,
                > > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > I am surprised too that eckankar doesn't go into further detail, explaining
                > > > > > > > how a will should be written so family members can not contest such a
                > > > > > > > donation. (or do they?)
                > > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > When I was still a member, my DH and I had wills drawn up through an
                > > > > > > > attorney I use for family issues. I questioned how a portion could be left
                > > > > > > > to my church. My attorney gave me a funny look and said "your family
                > should
                > > > > > > > always come first"! We had an interesting conversation, and in the end I
                > > > > > > > didn't leave anything to eckankar. ;-) All it takes is discussing
                > > > > > > > something of this nature with an outsider, and they tend to have a much
                > > > > > > > better way of putting the important things into perspective.
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > Liz
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > Mish wrote:
                > > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > Here's the exact statement posted by Bob Hepple on the
                > > > > > > > California Satsang Society Chela News & Events publication
                > > > > > > > regarding raising money for their building fund:
                > > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > "How can I donate? There are many ways that you can donate.
                > > > > > > > Enclosed is an envelope and donation form that will allow
                > > > > > > > you to receive a tax receipt for your check or credit card
                > > > > > > > donation. Also enclosed are two brochures, published by
                > > > > > > > ECKANKAR Spiritual Center, that explain how to bequeath
                > > > > > > > the California Satsang Society in your will or living trust,
                > > > > > > > or make the Society a beneficiary of your retirement,
                > > > > > > > pension plan, or life insurance policy."
                > > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > This very plainly states how such cult groups like eckankar go
                > > > > > > > after members' money.
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > <snip>
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > Another disturbing thing is how blatantly eckankar goes after
                > > > > > > > members money including pensions, life insurance and other
                > > > > > > > money that most people bequeath to surviving family members.
                > > > > > > > This shows how callous eckankar is regarding family structure
                > > > > > > > and well-being. Eckankar breaks down family ties in order to
                > > > > > > > get the family money! But of course that is what all cults are
                > > > > > > > after--bleeding chelas dry but making them imagine they are
                > > > > > > > getting something in the bargain, a stairway to heaven, perhaps!
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • prometheus_973
                WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO THE MAHANTA CONSCIOUSNESS ??? PT Defined It and Klemp Eliminated This Definition! WHY? Twitchell defines Mahanta Consciousness in his
                Message 7 of 15 , Oct 7, 2007
                  WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO THE MAHANTA CONSCIOUSNESS ???
                  PT Defined It and Klemp Eliminated This Definition! WHY?

                  Twitchell defines "Mahanta Consciousness" in his ECKANKAR
                  Dictionary, but Klemp deletes this reference in the EK Lexicon.
                  Look at Klemp's Lexicon and all one can find is the definition
                  for the "Mahanta" 14th Initiate. I thought the Mahanta Con.
                  was supposed to be more impersonal and intangible.

                  PT: "Mahanta Consciousness - The spiritual leader,
                  or Godman; head of ECK;

                  [ME: Well! That's not impersonal or intangible either!
                  No wonder HK makes a distinction between the "full"
                  14th initiate LEM/Mahanta versus the 12th or 13th
                  (in training) Mahanta]

                  all those who come to him in the present age have been
                  with him since their advent into the world;

                  [ME: This must be true for DG's initiates too? Shame
                  on you Mr. Klemp for biting the hand that passed you
                  the "ROD!" Afterall, RT chose PT, and RT/PT/GT
                  chose DG, and DG (out of love) handed you the Rod!]

                  the body of the Mahanta is the ECK, which is the essence
                  of God flowing out from the Ocean of Love and Mercy,
                  sustaining all life and tying together all forms;

                  [ME: the definition for "spiritual hierarchy" lists the Mahanta
                  third and after the ECK. Besides, how can the ECK be limited
                  by a number like 14th Plane? Also, the "ANAMI LOK" is where
                  SUGMAD resides and it's the 10th Plane! (pg. 9, EK Lexicon).
                  How can the Mahanta be 14th Plane when Sugmad resides on
                  the 10th Plane?!]

                  the Vi-Guru, the Light Giver; a state of God Consciousness
                  which is beyond the titles given in religions which designate
                  states of consciousness; the highest of all states of consciousness."

                  [ME: Paul had to one-up Radhasoami ("Path of the Masters") and
                  Ruhani Satsang (Kirpal Singh) in order to be "Top Dog". Afterall,
                  you're not going to Buy or Invest in something if it's not the very
                  "Best" and "Fastest" are you?]

                  ******************************************************************

                  Yes, by now (after 25 years) there should be: 33,333 6th EK Initiates;
                  3,333 7ths; 333 8ths; 33 9ths! Klemp has fallen down on the job
                  and has focused upon building monuments to his ego!

                  Darwin may have been a big spender, but at least he wasn't
                  stingy with initiations, and neither was Paul!

                  So, there will probably be a big buzz at the up and coming
                  2007 EWWS (not to be confused with the EWS, or ECK Worship
                  Service).

                  ECKists will be talking... is this the Year for a Change in
                  Leadership... Finally!!! Will ECKists have a leader that won't
                  be a simpleton or a nerdy looking recluse and an embarrassment
                  to Vahanas?

                  When comparing HK to GW one has to admit that ANY CHANGE
                  would be for the better... even if HK remains as the "full" (FMOC)
                  master-on-campus!

                  Or, will Klemp disapoint Chelas once again with a new ploy
                  (delay tactic) and new distractions (buildings, books, etc.)?

                  Yes, ECKists will be "challenged" by the I-35 Bridge Collapse
                  and the Airlines reducing plane size and customers flying
                  into Minneapolis, but this just puts them into the same boat
                  as others... it's called life! Therefore this is not a "special"
                  event created by the Kal nor a special circumstance (test)
                  for ECKists alone! WAKE UP ECKIES AND LOOK AROUND AT
                  OTHER PEOPLE... THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS YOUR BELIEF!!!

                  Really, ECKists are vain and live in a bubble! Look around
                  and get out of your shells! Don't limit your thinking to ECK
                  Dogma and to EK religious belief that isolates you from life
                  experiences and having compassion and empathy of others.
                  You are no more "special" than any other Soul... and don't
                  think you're more "advanced" because someone has told
                  you so, or trained you to jump though hoops for initiations!

                  WAKE UP TO THE REAL TRUTH! YOU ARE SPIRITUALLY FREE NOW!

                  Prometheus








                  mish wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > LET'S DISCUSS KLEMP MORE! WHAT'S WRONG WITH
                  > HIM AND ALL HIS FOIBLES AS A SELF-PROCLAIMED
                  > GODMAN! IT IS NOT ALL ABOUT TWITCHELL!
                  >
                  > For me, actually, eckankar is just a man-made new
                  > age religion. Why and what Twitchell did in creating it
                  > can be debated until the cows come home. Everyone
                  > interested in this strange little known cult the least
                  > little bit takes one side or the other in the debate which
                  > basically comes down to how important or insignificant
                  > the plagiarisms and lies are to the eckankar teachings.
                  > Those who remain in eckankar have chosen to miminalize
                  > the fraud that has taken place and are quite confortable
                  > to remain in the delusion and illusion of the eck teachings.
                  > They support Klemp as he continues the lies and deceptions,
                  > keeping silent as he also molds eckankar to fit his
                  > narrow-minded, anti-social and narcissistic personality.
                  > Many eckists become like him which is not something one
                  > should really strive for! : )
                  >
                  > But to take this to a present day discussion, why do we not,
                  > meaning eckists and non-eckists alike debate the leadership
                  > of Klemp??? Klemp has been the mahanta/L.E.M. far longer
                  > than his predecessors, their years combined. It seems to me
                  > that we need to look long and hard at what Klemp has done
                  > and is doing since taking the reins of eckankar and shaping it
                  > into his creation. To me, what eckankar is today is greatly flawed
                  > by Klemp's shifty hands! He is no godman--how can anyone
                  > consider such a silly, nerdy looking and odd speaking man a
                  > god incarnate? Just looking at him and listening to his stupid
                  > talks makes the whole org look ridiculous!! He's a joke and
                  > there's nothing special or original about him! LOL!
                  >
                  > My guess is that many long time eckists are waiting, still
                  > waiting, for the winds of change to happen--when Klemp
                  > either steps down or is removed from his throne. I believe
                  > that many of the true eckists are just waiting for a power
                  > shift in leadership which they hope will then bring the outer
                  > org in line with what they are feeling/experiencing on their
                  > inner! They are hopeful that eckankar will become the
                  > religion they have longed for! : )
                  >
                  > Klemp must fear these patient chelas very much, and thus, he
                  > has slowed down the initiations in order to remain in control.
                  > It seems this is the true reason for being stingy about the
                  > initiations! Klemp is a stingy and fearful little old man--he
                  > is no guru or godman! So again I ask, why not discuss Klemp,
                  > and let Twitchell be for the most part? Let's get to the heart of
                  > the matter which is what Klemp is doing with eckankar! The
                  > continuing discussions about how eckankar began and how
                  > Twitchell established it, speculating on his motivations, etc.
                  > are all distractions from what needs to be analyzed today--
                  > that being Harold Klemp and what he has done to eckankar!
                  > My gut feeling is that Twitchell would not be happy with what
                  > Harold has done to his creation! LOL!
                  >
                  > BTW, I didn't leave eckankar because of David Lane's book-I
                  > haven't read it. I left because of Ford Johnson's "Confessions
                  > of a God Seeker." Many eckists left after becoming aware of
                  > Ford's book. No need to give Lane all the credit. Others have left
                  > because they saw through the veil of illusion--they knew
                  > something wasn't right in belonging to the eck cult and they
                  > hit the road on their own! There are many reasons and ways
                  > that one can wake up to the truth about eckankar . . . and get
                  > out! : )
                  >
                  > Mish
                  >
                  > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                  > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > I was thinking about what Klemp said about Gross
                  > > holding onto the Rod of ECK Power beyond his time
                  > > and was, therefore, "burned" by it.
                  > >
                  > > If this is true that Gross should have passed the Rod
                  > > to Klemp in 1980 (or to someone else) can Eckists,
                  > > then, really blame Gross (for his actions) anymore than
                  > > they could blame Klemp for slowing their spiritual growth
                  > > (initiations)? What is more important for ECKists? Fiscal
                  > > Responsibility, Buildings, or Initiations? I was, mostly,
                  > > focused on spiritual growth... Initiations!
                  > >
                  > > Actually, Klemp has more blame by hanging onto
                  > > this Power way longer than any 20th Century LEM,
                  > > and for delaying and limiting initiations. There should
                  > > be at least 33 9ths, 333 8ths, and 3,333 7ths after
                  > > 25 years of "leadership." Sure, this would make the org
                  > > very "top heavy" but so what! It should be! Aren't Eckists
                  > > supposed to be the "cream of the crop?" Why then don't
                  > > the initiations reflect this? See, this is just one of
                  > > many reasons why the long-time Eckists want to see
                  > > Klemp step down.
                  > >
                  > > HK restructured the org and moved the headquarters
                  > > in order to have Total Control over the EK Board of
                  > > Trustees. The RESA structure is the extended arm of
                  > > this control.
                  > >
                  > > What were viewed as inappropiate actions by Gross
                  > > were really just the "effects" of hanging onto the Rod
                  > > beyond his time. DG's rationale and thinking was off
                  > > balance and askewed. Consideration and understanding
                  > > are still lacking for this phenomonia of holding onto
                  > > the "Rod" beyond the time the LEM should. Klemp is
                  > > still holding a grudge!
                  > >
                  > > Even today, the RESA police spy on Eckists with informers
                  > > as they ferret out those who are Not supposed to even
                  > > speak Darwin's name! And, let's face it, there will never
                  > > be discussions of the "positive" elements concerning those
                  > > 10 lost years of EK History. This is extremely strange since
                  > > most Higher Initiates (6-14) have most of their initiations
                  > > from those 10 years under Gross!
                  > >
                  > > Klemp's chelas, from Oct. 22, 1981, are mostly 4ths and
                  > > 5ths! Let's face it, according to EK Dogma Chelas, H.I.s
                  > > are Not Established on the SOUL PLANE "until" they have
                  > > become 6ths!
                  > >
                  > > This 6th initiation is the "proof" that they have completed
                  > > all of the trials and tests for the 5th initiation. I wonder
                  > > if this was always the case? Or, did Klemp redefine this
                  > > dogma (with these restrictions) "after" he slowed the
                  > > initiations down?
                  > >
                  > > Therefore, Klemp might want to hold onto his MAHANTA
                  > > position, until, he can get the majority of "his" Chelas to
                  > > the 6th initiation. Maybe this is why he slowed initiations
                  > > down in the first place? Maybe it was used as a ploy, along
                  > > with building structures, to insure that he would need to
                  > > be the LEM and/or Mahanta for 25-30 years or longer!
                  > >
                  > > Yes, Klemp is very selfish and has done ECK Chelas an
                  > > even greater injustice than Gross ever did. Klemp's focus
                  > > has been on the tangible instead of the intangible.
                  > >
                  > > Prometheus
                • prometheus_973
                  Wll Don Ginn, or Joan be the new President of the Org? Will Peter Skelsky become the new LEM? Or, will Don be the new LEM? Can Joan, still, be moved in as the
                  Message 8 of 15 , Oct 15, 2007
                    Wll Don Ginn, or Joan be the new President of the Org?
                    Will Peter Skelsky become the new LEM? Or, will Don be
                    the new LEM? Can Joan, still, be moved in as the Co-LEM
                    without problems? After 25 years it seems like Klemp still
                    has a death-grip on the Rod of (EK) Power! Although, the
                    ROD has "Burned" Klemp for a decade or more, and has
                    affected his health, he has refused to let it go!

                    Of course, in any scenario, Klemp won't give up the Top
                    Dog spot as "FULL" Mahanta [Chief God over the copyrighted
                    materials (words) and property of the Eckankar Corp. in the
                    Lower Planes of KAL]!

                    HK's Lust for Fame and Power has distorted his Soul on every
                    level. The ROD has become Klemp's personal "precious"
                    possession, and should have been LET GO of years ago!

                    When will ECKists see the Truth... that only the weak, fearful,
                    and inexperienced Souls need Masters and Religion, and
                    that those EK initiations are just security blankets and
                    carrots to feed the ego! Soul is its own Master and needs
                    to be Free of Religious Dogma and Group Think!

                    Prometheus



                    Prometheus wrote:
                    >
                    I was thinking about what Klemp said about Gross
                    holding onto the Rod of ECK Power beyond his time
                    and was, therefore, "burned" by it.
                    >
                    If this is true that Gross should have passed the Rod
                    to Klemp in 1980 (or to someone else) can Eckists,
                    then, really blame Gross (for his actions) anymore than
                    they could blame Klemp for slowing their spiritual growth
                    (initiations)? What is more important for ECKists? Fiscal
                    Responsibility, Buildings, or Initiations? I was, mostly,
                    focused on spiritual growth... Initiations!
                    >
                    Actually, Klemp has more blame by hanging onto
                    this Power way longer than any 20th Century LEM,
                    and for delaying and limiting initiations. There should
                    be at least 33 9ths, 333 8ths, and 3,333 7ths after
                    25 years of "leadership." Sure, this would make the org
                    very "top heavy" but so what! It should be! Aren't Eckists
                    supposed to be the "cream of the crop?" Why then don't
                    the initiations reflect this? See, this is just one of
                    many reasons why the long-time Eckists want to see
                    Klemp step down.
                    >
                    HK restructured the org and moved the headquarters
                    in order to have Total Control over the EK Board of
                    Trustees. The RESA structure is the extended arm of
                    this control.
                    >
                    What were viewed as inappropiate actions by Gross
                    were really just the "effects" of hanging onto the Rod
                    beyond his time. DG's rationale and thinking was off
                    balance and askewed. Consideration and understanding
                    are still lacking for this phenomonia of holding onto
                    the "Rod" beyond the time the LEM should. Klemp is
                    still holding a grudge!
                    >
                    Even today, the RESA police spy on Eckists with informers
                    as they ferret out those who are Not supposed to even
                    speak Darwin's name! And, let's face it, there will never
                    be discussions of the "positive" elements concerning those
                    10 lost years of EK History. This is extremely strange since
                    most Higher Initiates (6-14) have most of their initiations
                    from those 10 years under Gross!
                    >
                    Klemp's chelas, from Oct. 22, 1981, are mostly 4ths and
                    5ths! Let's face it, according to EK Dogma Chelas, H.I.s
                    are Not Established on the SOUL PLANE "until" they have
                    become 6ths!
                    >
                    This 6th initiation is the "proof" that they have completed
                    all of the trails and tests for the 5th initiation. I wonder
                    if this was always the case? Or, did Klemp redefine this
                    dogma (with these restrictions) "after" he slowed the
                    initiations down?
                    >
                    Therefore, Klemp might want to hold onto his MAHANTA
                    position, until, he can get the majority of "his" Chelas to
                    the 6th initiation. Maybe this is why he slowed initiations
                    down in the first place? Maybe it was used as a ploy, along
                    with building structures, to insure that he would need to
                    be the LEM and/or Mahanta for 25-30 years or longer!
                    >
                    Yes, Klemp is very selfish and has done ECK Chelas an
                    even greater injustice than Gross ever did. Klemp's focus
                    has been on the tangible instead of the intangible.
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >
                    > ***
                    > Prometheus wrote:
                    > >
                    Hi Mish,
                    I just read your post. Good one! Yes, it does seem
                    like Klemp is taking an awfully long time to "train"
                    a replacement. HK's "Wonderful" book has
                    a 2005 copyright and he states it will take him
                    "several" more years to train someone! A "few"
                    means 3-4 right? Therefore, "several" would be
                    4-5 or more right? Or, is Klemp incompetent at
                    counting as well? If Klemp is being honest and
                    is not trying to blind-side his chelas it would seem
                    that his replacement won't be ready until, at least,
                    Oct. 22, 2009. However, ECKists must always keep
                    in mind the Catch-22 rule!
                    > >
                    However, has Klemp ever really been open, honest,
                    or clear about anything? Hmmmmm. The closest
                    he came to this was when he had to admit (because
                    of it being Public Record) that he was locked-up in
                    a mental institution. However, Klemp then put his
                    Damage Control Spin on this incident (lemons into
                    lemonade?) as he typically blamed or found fault with
                    everyone at the mental health facility except himself.
                    Re-read it for yourself and see! Klemp has never taken
                    Responsibility for his harsh words, judgments, or negative
                    actions and reactions toward others nor has he, ever,
                    shown any Empathy, tolerance, or compassion. These
                    are virtures and indicators of a higher Love.
                    > >
                    I challenge ECKists to point out where, in HK's vast
                    writings, he has Ever Admitted to having made a Mistake,
                    or of Showning Empathy toward others... especially
                    to non-ECKists! One can rationalize that it is showing
                    "tough love" when involving chelas, but how about
                    with others? And No, it's Not Detachment either! It's
                    the Catch-22 Mahanta Consciousness Ploy of Denial.
                    ECKists are stupid and delusional and in denial to believe
                    that everything they are told is true... except when they
                    validate it via Imagination and with the use of a "charged
                    word!" LOL! As Below So Above and Vice-Versa?!
                    > >
                    Yes, HK is always pointing the finger and blaming others.
                    Klemp went to the 1971 ECK Worldwide instead of to his
                    own father's funeral to be with his mother, brothers, and
                    sister. Then, HK makes excuses for this insensitive and
                    narcissistic behaviour by quoting Jesus, in his year 2000
                    "Autobiography," while Talking About having Love for God.
                    Then Klemp tells ECKists that they must have a "Loving Heart"
                    and be an example for others. What a hypocrite!
                    > >
                    BTW- Here's what Klemp had to say on Eckankar.org about
                    "when" Twitchell first met Rebazar.
                    > >
                    "Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951 in the foothills of the
                    Himalayas near Darjeeling." [Hmmmm. This Darjee(ling) sounds
                    like Darji]
                    > >
                    http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html
                    > >
                    Therefore, if you believe this crap, Rebazar had from
                    1951-1965 to "train" Twitchell for the LEM position.
                    > >
                    Rebazar, during a time when the World's Consciousness
                    was lower, took 14 years to "train" Twitchell.
                    > >
                    Then, Twitchell had from 1965-1971 to "train" Gross. This
                    is only 6 years. Maybe it took "less" time to train Darwin
                    because the World's Consciousness, even due to wars, etc.,
                    has expanded even more.
                    > >
                    Gross, then, took 10 years to "train" Klemp. Actually,
                    Gross was going to hand the Rod to Klemp in 1980 after
                    9 years, but took an extra year to finish Klemp's "training."
                    > >
                    Here's the score on passing the Rod:
                    > >
                    RT-PT=14 years
                    PT-DG=6 years
                    DG-HK=10 years
                    HK-??=25 years
                    > >
                    Does it look like Klemp has, maybe, held onto his Power
                    over these EK chelas Way Too Long?
                    > >
                    [BTW-HK's chelas are those First initiated After Oct. 22, 1981.]
                    > >
                    It looks like HK (the most advanced Mahanta ever, he claims)
                    Should Not have taken more than 15 years to "train" someone,
                    and that's giving him a lot of "wiggle" room.
                    > >
                    > > Prometheus


                    mish wrote:
                    > > >
                    Hi, All!
                    > > >
                    What Prometheus wrote here reminded me of something
                    Klemp wrote in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters." Prometheus
                    wrote:
                    > > >
                    "Isn't it interesting that Klemp, at the 1983 H.I. Meeting,
                    said that he would be the LEM/Mahanta for 10 to 20
                    years in order to complete his mission. And, HK boasted
                    that unlike Darwin he would Let Go of the Rod of ECK
                    Power before it burned him and affected his health.
                    > > >
                    <snipped>
                    > > >
                    Anyway, Klemp has held onto the Rod of ECK Power
                    with a death grip, and has gone way beyond the 20
                    years promised to complete his mission (of building
                    structures)."
                    > > >
                    On pages 235-236, in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters,"
                    Klemp answered in a chela's dream "the length of his
                    service as the Living ECK Master. How long would he
                    serve in that position? Were there others in training?"
                    > > >
                    Klemp wrote, "The Master assured her that a few
                    initiates were indeed in training for leadership in ECK,
                    but no one was ready yet to assume the responsibility.
                    It might take several years or many more for the first
                    one to complete all the tests. Accordingly, the Master
                    would continue for another cycle as the Mahanta, the
                    Living ECK Master. . . . "
                    > > >
                    Doesn't sound like Klemp is ready to step down yet,
                    and that is why I believe after reading what Klemp wrote
                    about Joan in his book, that he was setting the stage
                    for her elevating to a position of great assistence to
                    the godman! I would think that Don Ginn, Peter Skelsky,
                    and the other hopeful "candidates" waiting in the wings
                    for their chance to grasp the rod of eck power would
                    be discouraged after reading Klemp's book. I agree
                    that Klemp seems to have a death grip on his power--
                    he just can't and won't let go of it! : )
                    > > >
                    Mish
                    > > >
                    p.s. Remember that Don Ginn and Peter Skelsky were
                    both on the Board of Trustees and helped Klemp to
                    boot Darwin. These guys were at least 7th initiates
                    25 years ago, so how embarrassing it must be to them that
                    it is taking so long for the godman Klemp to train them!
                    Either they are slow learners or Klemp is, as we know,
                    incompetent and a fraud--Klemp has none of the powers he
                    claims! Well, stupidity does abound in eckankar for sure!
                    > > >
                    > > > ################################
                    > > >
                    prometheus wrote:
                    > > > >
                    Hi Mish,
                    Excellent post! On the other hand... the more I think
                    about it... perhaps Don will take the place of Peter
                    Skelsky and Peter will become the next LEM.
                    > > > >
                    Isn't it interesting that Klemp, at the 1983 H.I. Meeting,
                    said that he would be the LEM/Mahanta for 10 to 20
                    years in order to complete his mission. And, HK boasted
                    that unlike Darwin he would Let Go of the Rod of ECK
                    Power before it burned him and affected his health.
                    > > > >
                    Actually, I didn't see where the "Rod" had "burned" DG
                    and, therefore, supposedly affected his health. HK and
                    the Board of Trustees are the ones that burned DG!
                    > > > >
                    Anyway, Klemp has held onto the Rod of ECK Power
                    with a death grip, and has gone way beyond the 20
                    years promised to complete his mission (of building
                    structures).
                    > > > >
                    What should have been Klemp's mission? Isn't the real
                    mission of a Mahanta: To take MORE Souls into the HIGHEST
                    Planes of the Sugmad; To do this more directly or FASTER
                    than any other religion or spiritual path could; To set
                    Souls FREE, thus, they too become MASTERS?!
                    > > > >
                    Instead, Klemp slowed Initiations down, and told ECKists
                    that he would! Why did he Not Speed these up at some
                    point? Look at the long-time 7th initiates that have been
                    7ths... for 20 plus years! What's with that? Why aren't
                    there more 8ths? I know that there are 9ths... including
                    Joan! Why the Glass Ceiling for long-time 7ths and former
                    RESAs? What does Klemp fear, or is this another effect
                    from Not having Let Go (of the Rod) when he should have?!
                    > > > >
                    Yes, Klemp was burned a long time ago when one looks
                    at his EMR problems beginning around 1990. Look at
                    his health problems of the last few years! So, I guess
                    his reasoning is, still, that his replacement wasn't ready.
                    Is that the way things are supposed to work in Eckankar?
                    > > > >
                    A replacement is ready when the need arises just like
                    when the chela is ready the Master will appear. Klemp
                    can tell chelas anything at anytime and chelas will accept
                    it because if they can't then something must be wrong
                    with them. The possibility can never exist that something
                    is wrong with Klemp or that he is lying. Yet, didn't HK
                    say that Twitchell 'twisted facts?' And, Marman said that
                    Twitchell used half-truths while Rich (another ECKist)
                    claims that PT plagarized 7% of his works! Didn't DG
                    "fall" from Grace? It's obvious that Klemp had fallen long
                    ago... circa 1990 perhaps?! The truth does have a bite
                    to it at times and this is why people will deny it for as
                    long as they can. This is why HK wants ECKists to "imagine"
                    that everything is fine with his leadership. The mind is
                    very powerful... just look at what it can do when under
                    a concentrated focus... like with hypnosis.
                    > > > >
                    So why do ECKists believe Klemp's version of truth? it's
                    because they fear the real truth that he's a fraud. What
                    else do they have to believe in? Eckankar is their life...
                    their crutch... they think. But there is much more! And
                    one can only discover this when they have Let Go...
                    Break the Chains and stand in a clear new light as a free
                    Soul.
                    > > > >
                    However, and on the other hand, after the fiasco with
                    Darwin one would think that ECKists could handle the
                    truth. And, wouldn't Klemp want to show the finances
                    to the General Membership in an Annual Report. That
                    doesn't happen though does it! Instead, Klemp puts the
                    fear of asking questions into chelas because questioning
                    his authority on anything will cause a chela to be held back
                    on Initiations. Never complain in your IRO or HIRO because
                    it will be put into your file at the ESC. "Good" ECKists must
                    always practice the "Law of Silence" and "Surrender" their
                    ability to think.
                    > > > >
                    So what's all this mean? It means that most ECKists
                    really want to see a change in leadership, but can't say
                    so. Klemp hasn't done anything except to create more
                    structures and write a ton of worthless books. Why are
                    these books worthless? Because the "spiritual" message
                    is way too simple, of lower consciousness, and is redundant
                    because one can find similar books everywhere and by
                    other secular or religious writers. Besides, these books
                    of Klemp's are only directed to the uninitiated public or
                    to the vast number of simple-minded chelas that don't
                    "Get It." These are Klemp's other Money Makers because
                    he gets 50% of the royalities!
                    > > > >
                    ECKists have been duped for a long time and for 25
                    years by Klemp! Even this narcissist knows that it has
                    to end soon. But why travel to Minneapolis to see the
                    new LEM when you've seen them before and will see and
                    hear from them more in the future? And, if you're a
                    True Blue ECKist, of higher consciousness, you should be
                    able to project yourself there, or see it on the Inner. Right!
                    > > > >
                    Prometheus
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    Mish wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    Hi, Everyone!
                    > > > > >
                    When I read Klemp's book "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," I
                    saw this book as a tool Klemp had created to elevate Joan
                    to an eck master, and I still believe that was one of the basic
                    purposes of the book. Klemp thinks he can cleverly insert subtle
                    ideas that when the reader goes back later, can say, oh, yes,
                    it's in there--how could one miss it! LOL! So, it is in "Those
                    Wonderful ECK Masters" that Joan appears in some chelas
                    dreams doing what eck masters are supposed to do, helping
                    chelas to find the mahanta! Also, in the chapter on Kata Daki,
                    Klemp explains how more female eck masters are coming out
                    to be known--he states it is now time! Again, it is time for
                    Joan to be an eck master. . . . Anyway, this is what I saw in
                    the book and I still believe that was Klemp's primary motivation
                    to write the book when he did. I also believe that Klemp was
                    planning to announce some changes in the leadership of
                    eckankar, positioning Joan in a bigger role of power so that
                    she could "officially" assist him in his declining years as
                    master of the universe. Now, I don't have those feelings of
                    a big announcement in that regard coming out publicly to
                    the chelas soon, if ever! I guess the chelas will have to get it
                    on the inner! LOL!
                    > > > > >
                    Seriously, though, positioning Joan in such a way before the
                    chelas would at the very least give her some clout if Klemp
                    became disabled or dead. I'm sure Klemp is recalling
                    what happened when PT suddenly died and how Gail then
                    selected the next L.E.M. mahanta in a dream and then later
                    married him! Hey, is Don Ginn married??? : )
                    > > > > >
                    There are big changes coming in the hierarchial structure
                    of the eckankar org--but not sure when it will be announced.
                    Maybe Klemp has decided not to appear so frail for the time
                    being as he continues his scheming to remain where he is
                    in the seat of eck power as long as he can! He's changed his
                    course a little bit for now, so I foresee a very boring up-coming
                    EWWS! It will be pretty much the same old eckancrap!
                    > > > > >
                    Chelas, I advise that you save your time and money by staying
                    home . . . or if you're truly in the mood to travel, go some
                    place fun and warm for a change! : )
                    > > > > >
                    Mish
                    > > > > >
                    prometheus_wrote:
                    > > > > > >
                    Hi All,
                    Yes, it seems that Don might be the next LEM while
                    Klemp remains the "full" Mahanta. Of course there is,
                    still, the possibility that Joan is made the Co-LEM
                    (since a female could only share this position, due to
                    "their" negative atoms).
                    > > > > > >
                    As a "junior" and/or Co-LEM (under the guidance &
                    supervision of the "full" LEM/Mahanta) Joan could take
                    > > > > > > over, even more, duties for her husband at the ESC.
                    > > > > > >
                    Or, Don can be given these duties as a "junior" LEM while
                    Joan continues her role at the ESC while spying on Don for HK!
                    > > > > > >
                    Anyway, it's a win/win for them right!
                    > > > > > >
                    I wonder... Would Joan be able to take orders from Don,
                    or will she, only, be obeying the Living ECK... Mahanta
                    like Marge?

                    Prometheus
                  • prometheus_973
                    IMO-The KAL always wants ECKists to attend the ECK Seminars in order to waste their hard earned Vahana money on travel and hotel expenses versus attending on
                    Message 9 of 15 , Oct 16, 2007
                      IMO-The KAL always wants ECKists to attend the
                      ECK Seminars in order to waste their hard earned
                      Vahana money on travel and hotel expenses versus
                      attending on the "Inner."

                      Isn't this "inner connection" via Soul Travel the
                      "special" attribute that makes Eckankar and ECKists
                      different from others and more "spiritually advanced"
                      from the other religious herds? So, WHY is it necessary
                      to attend on the outer and make a pilgrimage to the
                      Temple on the physical versus the higher inner planes,
                      especially, for H.I.s?

                      WHY is it necessary for H.I.s to even "write" a Monthly
                      Initiate Report (IRO/HIRO) IF there is Always/Constantly
                      an "inner" communication taking place? WHY do ECK
                      H.I.s need this "lower" physical act to demonstrate
                      discipline, and to communicate with their 14th initiate
                      leader?

                      WHY is Klemp attached to Astral Plane emotions,
                      and Physical Plane limitations? Afterall, ECKists not
                      only have to go through metal detectors for Klemp's
                      Saturday night talk (due to his fears), but they have
                      to get their inspiration from outer talks and words
                      just as other religious followers do!

                      So what is it that makes Eckankar "better" than other
                      religions? The proof is in the pudding! Just look at these
                      ECK H.I.s! Or, better yet, just talk to and listen to them!
                      Anyone can memorize an ECK brochure, but what do they
                      really say and how do they really behave away from the
                      seminar? They're no different from anyone else (for good
                      or bad) regardless of initiation level. WHY? Because the
                      EK initiations, except for what's printed on paper, don't
                      exist in reality. Only the imagination can fulfill the hopes
                      and dreams of those who believe. This is WHY and HOW
                      religions work for the masses... including ECKists!

                      Prometheus




                      mish wrote:


                      LET'S DISCUSS KLEMP MORE! WHAT'S WRONG WITH
                      HIM AND ALL HIS FOIBLES AS A SELF-PROCLAIMED
                      GODMAN! IT IS NOT ALL ABOUT TWITCHELL!

                      For me, actually, eckankar is just a man-made new
                      age religion. Why and what Twitchell did in creating it
                      can be debated until the cows come home. Everyone
                      interested in this strange little known cult the least
                      little bit takes one side or the other in the debate which
                      basically comes down to how important or insignificant
                      the plagiarisms and lies are to the eckankar teachings.

                      Those who remain in eckankar have chosen to miminalize
                      the fraud that has taken place and are quite confortable
                      to remain in the delusion and illusion of the eck teachings.
                      They support Klemp as he continues the lies and deceptions,
                      keeping silent as he also molds eckankar to fit his
                      narrow-minded, anti-social and narcissistic personality.
                      Many eckists become like him which is not something one
                      should really strive for! : )

                      But to take this to a present day discussion, why do we not,
                      meaning eckists and non-eckists alike debate the leadership
                      of Klemp??? Klemp has been the mahanta/L.E.M. far longer
                      than his predecessors, their years combined. It seems to me
                      that we need to look long and hard at what Klemp has done
                      and is doing since taking the reins of eckankar and shaping it
                      into his creation. To me, what eckankar is today is greatly flawed
                      by Klemp's shifty hands! He is no godman--how can anyone
                      consider such a silly, nerdy looking and odd speaking man a
                      god incarnate? Just looking at him and listening to his stupid
                      talks makes the whole org look ridiculous!! He's a joke and
                      there's nothing special or original about him! LOL!

                      My guess is that many long time eckists are waiting, still
                      waiting, for the winds of change to happen--when Klemp
                      either steps down or is removed from his throne. I believe
                      that many of the true eckists are just waiting for a power
                      shift in leadership which they hope will then bring the outer
                      org in line with what they are feeling/experiencing on their
                      inner! They are hopeful that eckankar will become the
                      religion they have longed for! : )

                      Klemp must fear these patient chelas very much, and thus, he
                      has slowed down the initiations in order to remain in control.
                      It seems this is the true reason for being stingy about the
                      initiations! Klemp is a stingy and fearful little old man--he
                      is no guru or godman! So again I ask, why not discuss Klemp,
                      and let Twitchell be for the most part? Let's get to the heart of
                      the matter which is what Klemp is doing with eckankar! The
                      continuing discussions about how eckankar began and how
                      Twitchell established it, speculating on his motivations, etc.
                      are all distractions from what needs to be analyzed today--
                      that being Harold Klemp and what he has done to eckankar!
                      My gut feeling is that Twitchell would not be happy with what
                      Harold has done to his creation! LOL!

                      BTW, I didn't leave eckankar because of David Lane's book-I
                      haven't read it. I left because of Ford Johnson's "Confessions
                      of a God Seeker." Many eckists left after becoming aware of
                      Ford's book. No need to give Lane all the credit. Others have left
                      because they saw through the veil of illusion--they knew
                      something wasn't right in belonging to the eck cult and they
                      hit the road on their own! There are many reasons and ways
                      that one can wake up to the truth about eckankar . . . and get
                      out! : )

                      Mish
                    • prometheus_973
                      Does Doug Kunin have a chance at becoming the next LEM? I ve heard that some ESC staffers would like to see someone younger than Don Ginn or Peter Skelsky take
                      Message 10 of 15 , Oct 17, 2007
                        Does Doug Kunin have a chance at becoming the next LEM?
                        I've heard that some ESC staffers would like to see someone
                        younger than Don Ginn or Peter Skelsky take over as Top Dog.
                        However, many of the female staffers would like to see Joan
                        become the LEM or even Co-LEM! Basically, any action or change
                        by Klemp will be seen as positive. However, IF Joan was
                        made LEM or Co-LEM this could (possibly) open the door
                        for FEMALES to become "FULL" MAHANTAS too!

                        The Mahanta can change the old ECK Dogma/rule via Catch-22!
                        According to PT's explanation Males have "atoms" that are
                        Positive and Females have "atoms" that are Negative and this
                        factor is WHY Female ECKists Cannot be a LEM in these Negative
                        Worlds of KAL.

                        Don't Two Negatives = a Positive?

                        Negative Female Atoms existing in the Lower Negative Worlds
                        of KAL would seem to have a Positive Effect! Maybe this is WHY
                        there are so many wars and so much Negativity! The Male "Positive"
                        Atoms are in opposition with the "Negative" Worlds of KAL.

                        Therefore, PT and the rest of the Male political & religious leaders
                        got it wrong! I wonder... WHY didn't they see this before? Maybe
                        they don't want to Let Go of their power over females? It does
                        make it convenient for any group... to automatically have control
                        over Half of the population!



                        Prometheus




                        Prometheus wrote:
                        >
                        > WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO THE MAHANTA CONSCIOUSNESS ???
                        > PT Defined It and Klemp Eliminated This Definition! WHY?
                        >
                        > Twitchell defines "Mahanta Consciousness" in his ECKANKAR
                        > Dictionary, but Klemp deletes this reference in the EK Lexicon.
                        > Look at Klemp's Lexicon and all one can find is the definition
                        > for the "Mahanta" 14th Initiate. I thought the Mahanta Con.
                        > was supposed to be more impersonal and intangible.
                        >
                        > PT: "Mahanta Consciousness - The spiritual leader,
                        > or Godman; head of ECK;
                        >
                        > [ME: Well! That's not impersonal or intangible either!
                        > No wonder HK makes a distinction between the "full"
                        > 14th initiate LEM/Mahanta versus the 12th or 13th
                        > (in training) Mahanta]
                        >
                        > all those who come to him in the present age have been
                        > with him since their advent into the world;
                        >
                        > [ME: This must be true for DG's initiates too? Shame
                        > on you Mr. Klemp for biting the hand that passed you
                        > the "ROD!" Afterall, RT chose PT, and RT/PT/GT
                        > chose DG, and DG (out of love) handed you the Rod!]
                        >
                        > the body of the Mahanta is the ECK, which is the essence
                        > of God flowing out from the Ocean of Love and Mercy,
                        > sustaining all life and tying together all forms;
                        >
                        > [ME: the definition for "spiritual hierarchy" lists the Mahanta
                        > third and after the ECK. Besides, how can the ECK be limited
                        > by a number like 14th Plane? Also, the "ANAMI LOK" is where
                        > SUGMAD resides and it's the 10th Plane! (pg. 9, EK Lexicon).
                        > How can the Mahanta be 14th Plane when Sugmad resides on
                        > the 10th Plane?!]
                        >
                        > the Vi-Guru, the Light Giver; a state of God Consciousness
                        > which is beyond the titles given in religions which designate
                        > states of consciousness; the highest of all states of consciousness."
                        >
                        > [ME: Paul had to one-up Radhasoami ("Path of the Masters") and
                        > Ruhani Satsang (Kirpal Singh) in order to be "Top Dog". Afterall,
                        > you're not going to Buy or Invest in something if it's not the very
                        > "Best" and "Fastest" are you?]
                        >
                        > ******************************************************************
                        >
                        > Yes, by now (after 25 years) there should be: 33,333 6th EK Initiates;
                        > 3,333 7ths; 333 8ths; 33 9ths! Klemp has fallen down on the job
                        > and has focused upon building monuments to his ego!
                        >
                        > Darwin may have been a big spender, but at least he wasn't
                        > stingy with initiations, and neither was Paul!
                        >
                        > So, there will probably be a big buzz at the up and coming
                        > 2007 EWWS (not to be confused with the EWS, or ECK Worship
                        > Service).
                        >
                        > ECKists will be talking... is this the Year for a Change in
                        > Leadership... Finally!!! Will ECKists have a leader that won't
                        > be a simpleton or a nerdy looking recluse and an embarrassment
                        > to Vahanas?
                        >
                        > When comparing HK to GW one has to admit that ANY CHANGE
                        > would be for the better... even if HK remains as the "full" (FMOC)
                        > master-on-campus!
                        >
                        > Or, will Klemp disapoint Chelas once again with a new ploy
                        > (delay tactic) and new distractions (buildings, books, etc.)?
                        >
                        > Yes, ECKists will be "challenged" by the I-35 Bridge Collapse
                        > and the Airlines reducing plane size and customers flying
                        > into Minneapolis, but this just puts them into the same boat
                        > as others... it's called life! Therefore this is not a "special"
                        > event created by the Kal nor a special circumstance (test)
                        > for ECKists alone! WAKE UP ECKIES AND LOOK AROUND AT
                        > OTHER PEOPLE... THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS YOUR BELIEF!!!
                        >
                        > Really, ECKists are vain and live in a bubble! Look around
                        > and get out of your shells! Don't limit your thinking to ECK
                        > Dogma and to EK religious belief that isolates you from life
                        > experiences and having compassion and empathy of others.
                        > You are no more "special" than any other Soul... and don't
                        > think you're more "advanced" because someone has told
                        > you so, or trained you to jump though hoops for initiations!
                        >
                        > WAKE UP TO THE REAL TRUTH! YOU ARE SPIRITUALLY FREE NOW!
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > mish wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > LET'S DISCUSS KLEMP MORE! WHAT'S WRONG WITH
                        > > HIM AND ALL HIS FOIBLES AS A SELF-PROCLAIMED
                        > > GODMAN! IT IS NOT ALL ABOUT TWITCHELL!
                        > >
                        > > For me, actually, eckankar is just a man-made new
                        > > age religion. Why and what Twitchell did in creating it
                        > > can be debated until the cows come home. Everyone
                        > > interested in this strange little known cult the least
                        > > little bit takes one side or the other in the debate which
                        > > basically comes down to how important or insignificant
                        > > the plagiarisms and lies are to the eckankar teachings.
                        > > Those who remain in eckankar have chosen to miminalize
                        > > the fraud that has taken place and are quite confortable
                        > > to remain in the delusion and illusion of the eck teachings.
                        > > They support Klemp as he continues the lies and deceptions,
                        > > keeping silent as he also molds eckankar to fit his
                        > > narrow-minded, anti-social and narcissistic personality.
                        > > Many eckists become like him which is not something one
                        > > should really strive for! : )
                        > >
                        > > But to take this to a present day discussion, why do we not,
                        > > meaning eckists and non-eckists alike debate the leadership
                        > > of Klemp??? Klemp has been the mahanta/L.E.M. far longer
                        > > than his predecessors, their years combined. It seems to me
                        > > that we need to look long and hard at what Klemp has done
                        > > and is doing since taking the reins of eckankar and shaping it
                        > > into his creation. To me, what eckankar is today is greatly flawed
                        > > by Klemp's shifty hands! He is no godman--how can anyone
                        > > consider such a silly, nerdy looking and odd speaking man a
                        > > god incarnate? Just looking at him and listening to his stupid
                        > > talks makes the whole org look ridiculous!! He's a joke and
                        > > there's nothing special or original about him! LOL!
                        > >
                        > > My guess is that many long time eckists are waiting, still
                        > > waiting, for the winds of change to happen--when Klemp
                        > > either steps down or is removed from his throne. I believe
                        > > that many of the true eckists are just waiting for a power
                        > > shift in leadership which they hope will then bring the outer
                        > > org in line with what they are feeling/experiencing on their
                        > > inner! They are hopeful that eckankar will become the
                        > > religion they have longed for! : )
                        > >
                        > > Klemp must fear these patient chelas very much, and thus, he
                        > > has slowed down the initiations in order to remain in control.
                        > > It seems this is the true reason for being stingy about the
                        > > initiations! Klemp is a stingy and fearful little old man--he
                        > > is no guru or godman! So again I ask, why not discuss Klemp,
                        > > and let Twitchell be for the most part? Let's get to the heart of
                        > > the matter which is what Klemp is doing with eckankar! The
                        > > continuing discussions about how eckankar began and how
                        > > Twitchell established it, speculating on his motivations, etc.
                        > > are all distractions from what needs to be analyzed today--
                        > > that being Harold Klemp and what he has done to eckankar!
                        > > My gut feeling is that Twitchell would not be happy with what
                        > > Harold has done to his creation! LOL!
                        > >
                        > > BTW, I didn't leave eckankar because of David Lane's book-I
                        > > haven't read it. I left because of Ford Johnson's "Confessions
                        > > of a God Seeker." Many eckists left after becoming aware of
                        > > Ford's book. No need to give Lane all the credit. Others have left
                        > > because they saw through the veil of illusion--they knew
                        > > something wasn't right in belonging to the eck cult and they
                        > > hit the road on their own! There are many reasons and ways
                        > > that one can wake up to the truth about eckankar . . . and get
                        > > out! : )
                        > >
                        > > Mish
                        > >
                        > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                        > > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > I was thinking about what Klemp said about Gross
                        > > > holding onto the Rod of ECK Power beyond his time
                        > > > and was, therefore, "burned" by it.
                        > > >
                        > > > If this is true that Gross should have passed the Rod
                        > > > to Klemp in 1980 (or to someone else) can Eckists,
                        > > > then, really blame Gross (for his actions) anymore than
                        > > > they could blame Klemp for slowing their spiritual growth
                        > > > (initiations)? What is more important for ECKists? Fiscal
                        > > > Responsibility, Buildings, or Initiations? I was, mostly,
                        > > > focused on spiritual growth... Initiations!
                        > > >
                        > > > Actually, Klemp has more blame by hanging onto
                        > > > this Power way longer than any 20th Century LEM,
                        > > > and for delaying and limiting initiations. There should
                        > > > be at least 33 9ths, 333 8ths, and 3,333 7ths after
                        > > > 25 years of "leadership." Sure, this would make the org
                        > > > very "top heavy" but so what! It should be! Aren't Eckists
                        > > > supposed to be the "cream of the crop?" Why then don't
                        > > > the initiations reflect this? See, this is just one of
                        > > > many reasons why the long-time Eckists want to see
                        > > > Klemp step down.
                        > > >
                        > > > HK restructured the org and moved the headquarters
                        > > > in order to have Total Control over the EK Board of
                        > > > Trustees. The RESA structure is the extended arm of
                        > > > this control.
                        > > >
                        > > > What were viewed as inappropiate actions by Gross
                        > > > were really just the "effects" of hanging onto the Rod
                        > > > beyond his time. DG's rationale and thinking was off
                        > > > balance and askewed. Consideration and understanding
                        > > > are still lacking for this phenomonia of holding onto
                        > > > the "Rod" beyond the time the LEM should. Klemp is
                        > > > still holding a grudge!
                        > > >
                        > > > Even today, the RESA police spy on Eckists with informers
                        > > > as they ferret out those who are Not supposed to even
                        > > > speak Darwin's name! And, let's face it, there will never
                        > > > be discussions of the "positive" elements concerning those
                        > > > 10 lost years of EK History. This is extremely strange since
                        > > > most Higher Initiates (6-14) have most of their initiations
                        > > > from those 10 years under Gross!
                        > > >
                        > > > Klemp's chelas, from Oct. 22, 1981, are mostly 4ths and
                        > > > 5ths! Let's face it, according to EK Dogma Chelas, H.I.s
                        > > > are Not Established on the SOUL PLANE "until" they have
                        > > > become 6ths!
                        > > >
                        > > > This 6th initiation is the "proof" that they have completed
                        > > > all of the trials and tests for the 5th initiation. I wonder
                        > > > if this was always the case? Or, did Klemp redefine this
                        > > > dogma (with these restrictions) "after" he slowed the
                        > > > initiations down?
                        > > >
                        > > > Therefore, Klemp might want to hold onto his MAHANTA
                        > > > position, until, he can get the majority of "his" Chelas to
                        > > > the 6th initiation. Maybe this is why he slowed initiations
                        > > > down in the first place? Maybe it was used as a ploy, along
                        > > > with building structures, to insure that he would need to
                        > > > be the LEM and/or Mahanta for 25-30 years or longer!
                        > > >
                        > > > Yes, Klemp is very selfish and has done ECK Chelas an
                        > > > even greater injustice than Gross ever did. Klemp's focus
                        > > > has been on the tangible instead of the intangible.
                        > > >
                        > > > Prometheus
                        >
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