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Re: Don Ginn - The Next LEM?

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  • prometheus_973
    Hi All, Yes, it seems that Don might be the next LEM while Klemp remains the full Mahanta. Of course there is, still, the possibility that Joan is made the
    Message 1 of 15 , Oct 2, 2007
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      Hi All,
      Yes, it seems that Don might be the next LEM while
      Klemp remains the "full" Mahanta. Of course there is,
      still, the possibility that Joan is made the Co-LEM
      (since a female could only share this position, due to
      "their" negative atoms).

      As a "junior" and/or Co-LEM (under the guidance &
      supervision of the "full" LEM/Mahanta) Joan could take
      over, even more, duties for her husband at the ESC.

      Or, Don can be given these duties as a "junior" LEM while
      Joan continues her role at the ESC while spying on Don
      for HK!

      Anyway, it's a win/win for them right!

      I wonder... Would Joan be able to take orders from Don,
      or will she, only, be obeying the Living ECK... Mahanta
      like Marge?

      Prometheus


      > mish wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > Hi, Liz!
      > >
      > It seems this attorney was thinking outside of the box! : ) When we
      > close ourselves off from the outside world by joining a cult like
      > eckankar, we box ourselves into a small isolated tunnel like place and
      > can forget the basic things in life like "your family comes first."
      > >
      > Mish
      > >
      > Liz wrote:
      > > >
      > Hi Mish and all,
      > > >
      > I am surprised too that eckankar doesn't go into further detail, explaining
      > how a will should be written so family members can not contest such a
      > donation. (or do they?)
      > > >
      > When I was still a member, my DH and I had wills drawn up through an
      > attorney I use for family issues. I questioned how a portion could be left
      > to my church. My attorney gave me a funny look and said "your family should
      > always come first"! We had an interesting conversation, and in the end I
      > didn't leave anything to eckankar. ;-) All it takes is discussing
      > something of this nature with an outsider, and they tend to have a much
      > better way of putting the important things into perspective.
      >
      > Liz
      >
      > ---------------------------------------------------------
      >
      > Mish wrote:
      > > >
      > Here's the exact statement posted by Bob Hepple on the
      > California Satsang Society Chela News & Events publication
      > regarding raising money for their building fund:
      > > >
      > "How can I donate? There are many ways that you can donate.
      > Enclosed is an envelope and donation form that will allow
      > you to receive a tax receipt for your check or credit card
      > donation. Also enclosed are two brochures, published by
      > ECKANKAR Spiritual Center, that explain how to bequeath
      > the California Satsang Society in your will or living trust,
      > or make the Society a beneficiary of your retirement,
      > pension plan, or life insurance policy."
      > > >
      >
      > This very plainly states how such cult groups like eckankar go
      > after members' money.
      >
      > <snip>
      >
      > Another disturbing thing is how blatantly eckankar goes after
      > members money including pensions, life insurance and other
      > money that most people bequeath to surviving family members.
      > This shows how callous eckankar is regarding family structure
      > and well-being. Eckankar breaks down family ties in order to
      > get the family money! But of course that is what all cults are
      > after--bleeding chelas dry but making them imagine they are
      > getting something in the bargain, a stairway to heaven, perhaps!
      >
    • mishmisha9
      Hi, Everyone! When I read Klemp s book Those Wonderful ECK Masters, I saw this book as a tool Klemp had created to elevate Joan to an eck master, and I still
      Message 2 of 15 , Oct 4, 2007
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        Hi, Everyone!

        When I read Klemp's book "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," I
        saw this book as a tool Klemp had created to elevate Joan
        to an eck master, and I still believe that was one of the basic
        purposes of the book. Klemp thinks he can cleverly insert subtle
        ideas that when the reader goes back later, can say, oh, yes,
        it's in there--how could one miss it! LOL! So, it is in "Those
        Wonderful ECK Masters" that Joan appears in some chelas
        dreams doing what eck masters are supposed to do, helping
        chelas to find the mahanta! Also, in the chapter on Kata Daki,
        Klemp explains how more female eck masters are coming out
        to be known--he states it is now time! Again, it is time for
        Joan to be an eck master. . . . Anyway, this is what I saw in
        the book and I still believe that was Klemp's primary motivation
        to write the book when he did. I also believe that Klemp was
        planning to announce some changes in the leadership of
        eckankar, positioning Joan in a bigger role of power so that
        she could "officially" assist him in his declining years as
        master of the universe. Now, I don't have those feelings of
        a big announcement in that regard coming out publicly to
        the chelas soon, if ever! I guess the chelas will have to get it
        on the inner! LOL!

        Seriously, though, positioning Joan in such a way before the
        chelas would at the very least give her some clout if Klemp
        became disabled or dead. I'm sure Klemp is recalling
        what happened when PT suddenly died and how Gail then
        selected the next L.E.M. mahanta in a dream and then later
        married him! Hey, is Don Ginn married??? : )

        There are big changes coming in the hierarchial structure
        of the eckankar org--but not sure when it will be announced.
        Maybe Klemp has decided not to appear so frail for the time
        being as he continues his scheming to remain where he is
        in the seat of eck power as long as he can! He's changed his
        course a little bit for now, so I foresee a very boring up-coming
        EWWS! It will be pretty much the same old eckancrap!

        Chelas, I advise that you save your time and money by staying
        home . . . or if you're truly in the mood to travel, go some
        place fun and warm for a change! : )

        Mish

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
        "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi All,
        > Yes, it seems that Don might be the next LEM while
        > Klemp remains the "full" Mahanta. Of course there is,
        > still, the possibility that Joan is made the Co-LEM
        > (since a female could only share this position, due to
        > "their" negative atoms).
        >
        > As a "junior" and/or Co-LEM (under the guidance &
        > supervision of the "full" LEM/Mahanta) Joan could take
        > over, even more, duties for her husband at the ESC.
        >
        > Or, Don can be given these duties as a "junior" LEM while
        > Joan continues her role at the ESC while spying on Don
        > for HK!
        >
        > Anyway, it's a win/win for them right!
        >
        > I wonder... Would Joan be able to take orders from Don,
        > or will she, only, be obeying the Living ECK... Mahanta
        > like Marge?
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
        >
        > > mish wrote:
        > > >
        > > >
        > > Hi, Liz!
        > > >
        > > It seems this attorney was thinking outside of the box! : ) When we
        > > close ourselves off from the outside world by joining a cult like
        > > eckankar, we box ourselves into a small isolated tunnel like place and
        > > can forget the basic things in life like "your family comes first."
        > > >
        > > Mish
        > > >
        > > Liz wrote:
        > > > >
        > > Hi Mish and all,
        > > > >
        > > I am surprised too that eckankar doesn't go into further detail, explaining
        > > how a will should be written so family members can not contest such a
        > > donation. (or do they?)
        > > > >
        > > When I was still a member, my DH and I had wills drawn up through an
        > > attorney I use for family issues. I questioned how a portion could be left
        > > to my church. My attorney gave me a funny look and said "your family should
        > > always come first"! We had an interesting conversation, and in the end I
        > > didn't leave anything to eckankar. ;-) All it takes is discussing
        > > something of this nature with an outsider, and they tend to have a much
        > > better way of putting the important things into perspective.
        > >
        > > Liz
        > >
        > > ---------------------------------------------------------
        > >
        > > Mish wrote:
        > > > >
        > > Here's the exact statement posted by Bob Hepple on the
        > > California Satsang Society Chela News & Events publication
        > > regarding raising money for their building fund:
        > > > >
        > > "How can I donate? There are many ways that you can donate.
        > > Enclosed is an envelope and donation form that will allow
        > > you to receive a tax receipt for your check or credit card
        > > donation. Also enclosed are two brochures, published by
        > > ECKANKAR Spiritual Center, that explain how to bequeath
        > > the California Satsang Society in your will or living trust,
        > > or make the Society a beneficiary of your retirement,
        > > pension plan, or life insurance policy."
        > > > >
        > >
        > > This very plainly states how such cult groups like eckankar go
        > > after members' money.
        > >
        > > <snip>
        > >
        > > Another disturbing thing is how blatantly eckankar goes after
        > > members money including pensions, life insurance and other
        > > money that most people bequeath to surviving family members.
        > > This shows how callous eckankar is regarding family structure
        > > and well-being. Eckankar breaks down family ties in order to
        > > get the family money! But of course that is what all cults are
        > > after--bleeding chelas dry but making them imagine they are
        > > getting something in the bargain, a stairway to heaven, perhaps!
        > >
        >
      • prometheus_973
        Hi Mish, Excellent post! On the other hand... the more I think about it... perhaps Don will take the place of Peter Skelsky and Peter will become the next LEM.
        Message 3 of 15 , Oct 4, 2007
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          Hi Mish,
          Excellent post! On the other hand... the more I think
          about it... perhaps Don will take the place of Peter
          Skelsky and Peter will become the next LEM.

          Isn't it interesting that Klemp, at the 1983 H.I. Meeting,
          said that he would be the LEM/Mahanta for 10 to 20
          years in order to complete his mission. And, HK boasted
          that unlike Darwin he would Let Go of the Rod of ECK
          Power before it burned him and affected his health.

          Actually, I didn't see where the "Rod" had "burned" DG
          and, therefore, supposedly affected his health. HK and
          the Board of Trustees are the ones that burned DG!

          Anyway, Klemp has held onto the Rod of ECK Power
          with a death grip, and has gone way beyond the 20
          years promised to complete his mission (of building
          structures).

          What should have been Klemp's mission? Isn't the real
          mission of a Mahanta: To take MORE Souls into the HIGHEST
          Planes of the Sugmad; To do this more directly or FASTER
          than any other religion or spiritual path could; To set
          Souls FREE, thus, they too become MASTERS?!

          Instead, Klemp slowed Initiations down, and told ECKists
          that he would! Why did he Not Speed these up at some
          point? Look at the long-time 7th initiates that have been
          7ths... for 20 plus years! What's with that? Why aren't
          there more 8ths? I know that there are 9ths... including
          Joan! Why the Glass Ceiling for long-time 7ths and former
          RESAs? What does Klemp fear, or is this another effect
          from Not having Let Go (of the Rod) when he should have?!

          Yes, Klemp was burned a long time ago when one looks
          at his EMR problems beginning around 1990. Look at
          his health problems of the last few years! So, I guess
          his reasoning is, still, that his replacement wasn't ready.
          Is that the way things are supposed to work in Eckankar?

          A replacement is ready when the need arises just like
          when the chela is ready the Master will appear. Klemp
          can tell chelas anything at anytime and chelas will accept
          it because if they can't then something must be wrong
          with them. The possibility can never exist that something
          is wrong with Klemp or that he is lying. Yet, didn't HK
          say that Twitchell 'twisted facts?' And, Marman said that
          Twitchell used half-truths while Rich (another ECKist)
          claims that PT plagarized 7% of his works! Didn't DG
          "fall" from Grace? It's obvious that Klemp had fallen long
          ago... circa 1990 perhaps?! The truth does have a bite
          to it at times and this is why people will deny it for as
          long as they can. This is why HK wants ECKists to "imagine"
          that everything is fine with his leadership. The mind is
          very powerful... just look at what it can do when under
          a concentrated focus... like with hypnosis.

          So why do ECKists believe Klemp's version of truth? it's
          because they fear the real truth that he's a fraud. What
          else do they have to believe in? Eckankar is their life...
          their crutch... they think. But there is much more! And
          one can only discover this when they have Let Go...
          Break the Chains and stand in a clear new light as a free
          Soul.

          However, and on the other hand, after the fiasco with
          Darwin one would think that ECKists could handle the
          truth. And, wouldn't Klemp want to show the finances
          to the General Membership in an Annual Report. That
          doesn't happen though does it! Instead, Klemp puts the
          fear of asking questions into chelas because questioning
          his authority on anything will cause a chela to be held back
          on Initiations. Never complain in your IRO or HIRO because
          it will be put into your file at the ESC. "Good" ECKists must
          always practice the "Law of Silence" and "Surrender" their
          ability to think.

          So what's all this mean? It means that most ECKists
          really want to see a change in leadership, but can't say
          so. Klemp hasn't done anything except to create more
          structures and write a ton of worthless books. Why are
          these books worthless? Because the "spiritual" message
          is way too simple, of lower consciousness, and is redundant
          because one can find similar books everywhere and by
          other secular or religious writers. Besides, these books
          of Klemp's are only directed to the uninitiated public or
          to the vast number of simple-minded chelas that don't
          "Get It." These are Klemp's other Money Makers because
          he gets 50% of the royalities!

          ECKists have been duped for a long time and for 25
          years by Klemp! Even this narcissist knows that it has
          to end soon. But why travel to Minneapolis to see the
          new LEM when you've seen them before and will see and
          hear from them more in the future? And, if you're a
          True Blue ECKist, of higher consciousness, you should be
          able to project yourself there, or see it on the Inner. Right!

          Prometheus


          Mish wrote:
          >
          > Hi, Everyone!
          >
          > When I read Klemp's book "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," I
          > saw this book as a tool Klemp had created to elevate Joan
          > to an eck master, and I still believe that was one of the basic
          > purposes of the book. Klemp thinks he can cleverly insert subtle
          > ideas that when the reader goes back later, can say, oh, yes,
          > it's in there--how could one miss it! LOL! So, it is in "Those
          > Wonderful ECK Masters" that Joan appears in some chelas
          > dreams doing what eck masters are supposed to do, helping
          > chelas to find the mahanta! Also, in the chapter on Kata Daki,
          > Klemp explains how more female eck masters are coming out
          > to be known--he states it is now time! Again, it is time for
          > Joan to be an eck master. . . . Anyway, this is what I saw in
          > the book and I still believe that was Klemp's primary motivation
          > to write the book when he did. I also believe that Klemp was
          > planning to announce some changes in the leadership of
          > eckankar, positioning Joan in a bigger role of power so that
          > she could "officially" assist him in his declining years as
          > master of the universe. Now, I don't have those feelings of
          > a big announcement in that regard coming out publicly to
          > the chelas soon, if ever! I guess the chelas will have to get it
          > on the inner! LOL!
          >
          > Seriously, though, positioning Joan in such a way before the
          > chelas would at the very least give her some clout if Klemp
          > became disabled or dead. I'm sure Klemp is recalling
          > what happened when PT suddenly died and how Gail then
          > selected the next L.E.M. mahanta in a dream and then later
          > married him! Hey, is Don Ginn married??? : )
          >
          > There are big changes coming in the hierarchial structure
          > of the eckankar org--but not sure when it will be announced.
          > Maybe Klemp has decided not to appear so frail for the time
          > being as he continues his scheming to remain where he is
          > in the seat of eck power as long as he can! He's changed his
          > course a little bit for now, so I foresee a very boring up-coming
          > EWWS! It will be pretty much the same old eckancrap!
          >
          > Chelas, I advise that you save your time and money by staying
          > home . . . or if you're truly in the mood to travel, go some
          > place fun and warm for a change! : )
          >
          > Mish
          >
          > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
          > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hi All,
          > > Yes, it seems that Don might be the next LEM while
          > > Klemp remains the "full" Mahanta. Of course there is,
          > > still, the possibility that Joan is made the Co-LEM
          > > (since a female could only share this position, due to
          > > "their" negative atoms).
          > >
          > > As a "junior" and/or Co-LEM (under the guidance &
          > > supervision of the "full" LEM/Mahanta) Joan could take
          > > over, even more, duties for her husband at the ESC.
          > >
          > > Or, Don can be given these duties as a "junior" LEM while
          > > Joan continues her role at the ESC while spying on Don
          > > for HK!
          > >
          > > Anyway, it's a win/win for them right!
          > >
          > > I wonder... Would Joan be able to take orders from Don,
          > > or will she, only, be obeying the Living ECK... Mahanta
          > > like Marge?
          > >
          > > Prometheus
          > >
          > >
          > > > mish wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > Hi, Liz!
          > > > >
          > > > It seems this attorney was thinking outside of the box! : ) When we
          > > > close ourselves off from the outside world by joining a cult like
          > > > eckankar, we box ourselves into a small isolated tunnel like place and
          > > > can forget the basic things in life like "your family comes first."
          > > > >
          > > > Mish
          > > > >
          > > > Liz wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > Hi Mish and all,
          > > > > >
          > > > I am surprised too that eckankar doesn't go into further detail, explaining
          > > > how a will should be written so family members can not contest such a
          > > > donation. (or do they?)
          > > > > >
          > > > When I was still a member, my DH and I had wills drawn up through an
          > > > attorney I use for family issues. I questioned how a portion could be left
          > > > to my church. My attorney gave me a funny look and said "your family should
          > > > always come first"! We had an interesting conversation, and in the end I
          > > > didn't leave anything to eckankar. ;-) All it takes is discussing
          > > > something of this nature with an outsider, and they tend to have a much
          > > > better way of putting the important things into perspective.
          > > >
          > > > Liz
          > > >
          > > > ---------------------------------------------------------
          > > >
          > > > Mish wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > Here's the exact statement posted by Bob Hepple on the
          > > > California Satsang Society Chela News & Events publication
          > > > regarding raising money for their building fund:
          > > > > >
          > > > "How can I donate? There are many ways that you can donate.
          > > > Enclosed is an envelope and donation form that will allow
          > > > you to receive a tax receipt for your check or credit card
          > > > donation. Also enclosed are two brochures, published by
          > > > ECKANKAR Spiritual Center, that explain how to bequeath
          > > > the California Satsang Society in your will or living trust,
          > > > or make the Society a beneficiary of your retirement,
          > > > pension plan, or life insurance policy."
          > > > > >
          > > >
          > > > This very plainly states how such cult groups like eckankar go
          > > > after members' money.
          > > >
          > > > <snip>
          > > >
          > > > Another disturbing thing is how blatantly eckankar goes after
          > > > members money including pensions, life insurance and other
          > > > money that most people bequeath to surviving family members.
          > > > This shows how callous eckankar is regarding family structure
          > > > and well-being. Eckankar breaks down family ties in order to
          > > > get the family money! But of course that is what all cults are
          > > > after--bleeding chelas dry but making them imagine they are
          > > > getting something in the bargain, a stairway to heaven, perhaps!
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • mishmisha9
          Hi, All! What Prometheus wrote here reminded me of something Klemp wrote in Those Wonderful ECK Masters. Prometheus wrote: Isn t it interesting that Klemp,
          Message 4 of 15 , Oct 5, 2007
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            Hi, All!

            What Prometheus wrote here reminded me of something
            Klemp wrote in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters." Prometheus
            wrote:

            "Isn't it interesting that Klemp, at the 1983 H.I. Meeting,
            said that he would be the LEM/Mahanta for 10 to 20
            years in order to complete his mission. And, HK boasted
            that unlike Darwin he would Let Go of the Rod of ECK
            Power before it burned him and affected his health.

            <snipped>

            Anyway, Klemp has held onto the Rod of ECK Power
            with a death grip, and has gone way beyond the 20
            years promised to complete his mission (of building
            structures)."

            On pages 235-236, in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters,"
            Klemp answered in a chela's dream "the length of his
            service as the Living ECK Master. How long would he
            serve in that position? Were there others in training?"

            Klemp wrote, "The Master assured her that a few
            initiates were indeed in training for leadership in ECK,
            but no one was ready yet to assume the responsibility.
            It might take several years or many more for the first
            one to complete all the tests. Accordingly, the Master
            would continue for another cycle as the Mahanta, the
            Living ECK Master. . . . "

            Doesn't sound like Klemp is ready to step down yet,
            and that is why I believe after reading what Klemp wrote
            about Joan in his book, that he was setting the stage
            for her elevating to a position of great assistence to
            the godman! I would think that Don Ginn, Peter Skelsky,
            and the other hopeful "candidates" waiting in the wings
            for their chance to grasp the rod of eck power would
            be discouraged after reading Klemp's book. I agree
            that Klemp seems to have a death grip on his power--
            he just can't and won't let go of it! : )

            Mish

            p.s. Remember that Don Ginn and Peter Skelsky were
            both on the Board of Trustees and helped Klemp to
            boot Darwin. These guys were at least 7th initiates
            25 years ago, so how embarrassing it must be to them that
            it is taking so long for the godman Klemp to train them!
            Either they are slow learners or Klemp is, as we know,
            incompetent and a fraud--Klemp has none of the powers he
            claims! Well, stupidity does abound in eckankar for sure!

            ################################

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
            "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Mish,
            > Excellent post! On the other hand... the more I think
            > about it... perhaps Don will take the place of Peter
            > Skelsky and Peter will become the next LEM.
            >
            > Isn't it interesting that Klemp, at the 1983 H.I. Meeting,
            > said that he would be the LEM/Mahanta for 10 to 20
            > years in order to complete his mission. And, HK boasted
            > that unlike Darwin he would Let Go of the Rod of ECK
            > Power before it burned him and affected his health.
            >
            > Actually, I didn't see where the "Rod" had "burned" DG
            > and, therefore, supposedly affected his health. HK and
            > the Board of Trustees are the ones that burned DG!
            >
            > Anyway, Klemp has held onto the Rod of ECK Power
            > with a death grip, and has gone way beyond the 20
            > years promised to complete his mission (of building
            > structures).
            >
            > What should have been Klemp's mission? Isn't the real
            > mission of a Mahanta: To take MORE Souls into the HIGHEST
            > Planes of the Sugmad; To do this more directly or FASTER
            > than any other religion or spiritual path could; To set
            > Souls FREE, thus, they too become MASTERS?!
            >
            > Instead, Klemp slowed Initiations down, and told ECKists
            > that he would! Why did he Not Speed these up at some
            > point? Look at the long-time 7th initiates that have been
            > 7ths... for 20 plus years! What's with that? Why aren't
            > there more 8ths? I know that there are 9ths... including
            > Joan! Why the Glass Ceiling for long-time 7ths and former
            > RESAs? What does Klemp fear, or is this another effect
            > from Not having Let Go (of the Rod) when he should have?!
            >
            > Yes, Klemp was burned a long time ago when one looks
            > at his EMR problems beginning around 1990. Look at
            > his health problems of the last few years! So, I guess
            > his reasoning is, still, that his replacement wasn't ready.
            > Is that the way things are supposed to work in Eckankar?
            >
            > A replacement is ready when the need arises just like
            > when the chela is ready the Master will appear. Klemp
            > can tell chelas anything at anytime and chelas will accept
            > it because if they can't then something must be wrong
            > with them. The possibility can never exist that something
            > is wrong with Klemp or that he is lying. Yet, didn't HK
            > say that Twitchell 'twisted facts?' And, Marman said that
            > Twitchell used half-truths while Rich (another ECKist)
            > claims that PT plagarized 7% of his works! Didn't DG
            > "fall" from Grace? It's obvious that Klemp had fallen long
            > ago... circa 1990 perhaps?! The truth does have a bite
            > to it at times and this is why people will deny it for as
            > long as they can. This is why HK wants ECKists to "imagine"
            > that everything is fine with his leadership. The mind is
            > very powerful... just look at what it can do when under
            > a concentrated focus... like with hypnosis.
            >
            > So why do ECKists believe Klemp's version of truth? it's
            > because they fear the real truth that he's a fraud. What
            > else do they have to believe in? Eckankar is their life...
            > their crutch... they think. But there is much more! And
            > one can only discover this when they have Let Go...
            > Break the Chains and stand in a clear new light as a free
            > Soul.
            >
            > However, and on the other hand, after the fiasco with
            > Darwin one would think that ECKists could handle the
            > truth. And, wouldn't Klemp want to show the finances
            > to the General Membership in an Annual Report. That
            > doesn't happen though does it! Instead, Klemp puts the
            > fear of asking questions into chelas because questioning
            > his authority on anything will cause a chela to be held back
            > on Initiations. Never complain in your IRO or HIRO because
            > it will be put into your file at the ESC. "Good" ECKists must
            > always practice the "Law of Silence" and "Surrender" their
            > ability to think.
            >
            > So what's all this mean? It means that most ECKists
            > really want to see a change in leadership, but can't say
            > so. Klemp hasn't done anything except to create more
            > structures and write a ton of worthless books. Why are
            > these books worthless? Because the "spiritual" message
            > is way too simple, of lower consciousness, and is redundant
            > because one can find similar books everywhere and by
            > other secular or religious writers. Besides, these books
            > of Klemp's are only directed to the uninitiated public or
            > to the vast number of simple-minded chelas that don't
            > "Get It." These are Klemp's other Money Makers because
            > he gets 50% of the royalities!
            >
            > ECKists have been duped for a long time and for 25
            > years by Klemp! Even this narcissist knows that it has
            > to end soon. But why travel to Minneapolis to see the
            > new LEM when you've seen them before and will see and
            > hear from them more in the future? And, if you're a
            > True Blue ECKist, of higher consciousness, you should be
            > able to project yourself there, or see it on the Inner. Right!
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            >
            > Mish wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi, Everyone!
            > >
            > > When I read Klemp's book "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," I
            > > saw this book as a tool Klemp had created to elevate Joan
            > > to an eck master, and I still believe that was one of the basic
            > > purposes of the book. Klemp thinks he can cleverly insert subtle
            > > ideas that when the reader goes back later, can say, oh, yes,
            > > it's in there--how could one miss it! LOL! So, it is in "Those
            > > Wonderful ECK Masters" that Joan appears in some chelas
            > > dreams doing what eck masters are supposed to do, helping
            > > chelas to find the mahanta! Also, in the chapter on Kata Daki,
            > > Klemp explains how more female eck masters are coming out
            > > to be known--he states it is now time! Again, it is time for
            > > Joan to be an eck master. . . . Anyway, this is what I saw in
            > > the book and I still believe that was Klemp's primary motivation
            > > to write the book when he did. I also believe that Klemp was
            > > planning to announce some changes in the leadership of
            > > eckankar, positioning Joan in a bigger role of power so that
            > > she could "officially" assist him in his declining years as
            > > master of the universe. Now, I don't have those feelings of
            > > a big announcement in that regard coming out publicly to
            > > the chelas soon, if ever! I guess the chelas will have to get it
            > > on the inner! LOL!
            > >
            > > Seriously, though, positioning Joan in such a way before the
            > > chelas would at the very least give her some clout if Klemp
            > > became disabled or dead. I'm sure Klemp is recalling
            > > what happened when PT suddenly died and how Gail then
            > > selected the next L.E.M. mahanta in a dream and then later
            > > married him! Hey, is Don Ginn married??? : )
            > >
            > > There are big changes coming in the hierarchial structure
            > > of the eckankar org--but not sure when it will be announced.
            > > Maybe Klemp has decided not to appear so frail for the time
            > > being as he continues his scheming to remain where he is
            > > in the seat of eck power as long as he can! He's changed his
            > > course a little bit for now, so I foresee a very boring up-coming
            > > EWWS! It will be pretty much the same old eckancrap!
            > >
            > > Chelas, I advise that you save your time and money by staying
            > > home . . . or if you're truly in the mood to travel, go some
            > > place fun and warm for a change! : )
            > >
            > > Mish
            > >
            > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
            > > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Hi All,
            > > > Yes, it seems that Don might be the next LEM while
            > > > Klemp remains the "full" Mahanta. Of course there is,
            > > > still, the possibility that Joan is made the Co-LEM
            > > > (since a female could only share this position, due to
            > > > "their" negative atoms).
            > > >
            > > > As a "junior" and/or Co-LEM (under the guidance &
            > > > supervision of the "full" LEM/Mahanta) Joan could take
            > > > over, even more, duties for her husband at the ESC.
            > > >
            > > > Or, Don can be given these duties as a "junior" LEM while
            > > > Joan continues her role at the ESC while spying on Don
            > > > for HK!
            > > >
            > > > Anyway, it's a win/win for them right!
            > > >
            > > > I wonder... Would Joan be able to take orders from Don,
            > > > or will she, only, be obeying the Living ECK... Mahanta
            > > > like Marge?
            > > >
            > > > Prometheus
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > > mish wrote:
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > Hi, Liz!
            > > > > >
            > > > > It seems this attorney was thinking outside of the box! : ) When we
            > > > > close ourselves off from the outside world by joining a cult like
            > > > > eckankar, we box ourselves into a small isolated tunnel like place and
            > > > > can forget the basic things in life like "your family comes first."
            > > > > >
            > > > > Mish
            > > > > >
            > > > > Liz wrote:
            > > > > > >
            > > > > Hi Mish and all,
            > > > > > >
            > > > > I am surprised too that eckankar doesn't go into further detail, explaining
            > > > > how a will should be written so family members can not contest such a
            > > > > donation. (or do they?)
            > > > > > >
            > > > > When I was still a member, my DH and I had wills drawn up through an
            > > > > attorney I use for family issues. I questioned how a portion could be left
            > > > > to my church. My attorney gave me a funny look and said "your family should
            > > > > always come first"! We had an interesting conversation, and in the end I
            > > > > didn't leave anything to eckankar. ;-) All it takes is discussing
            > > > > something of this nature with an outsider, and they tend to have a much
            > > > > better way of putting the important things into perspective.
            > > > >
            > > > > Liz
            > > > >
            > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------
            > > > >
            > > > > Mish wrote:
            > > > > > >
            > > > > Here's the exact statement posted by Bob Hepple on the
            > > > > California Satsang Society Chela News & Events publication
            > > > > regarding raising money for their building fund:
            > > > > > >
            > > > > "How can I donate? There are many ways that you can donate.
            > > > > Enclosed is an envelope and donation form that will allow
            > > > > you to receive a tax receipt for your check or credit card
            > > > > donation. Also enclosed are two brochures, published by
            > > > > ECKANKAR Spiritual Center, that explain how to bequeath
            > > > > the California Satsang Society in your will or living trust,
            > > > > or make the Society a beneficiary of your retirement,
            > > > > pension plan, or life insurance policy."
            > > > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > This very plainly states how such cult groups like eckankar go
            > > > > after members' money.
            > > > >
            > > > > <snip>
            > > > >
            > > > > Another disturbing thing is how blatantly eckankar goes after
            > > > > members money including pensions, life insurance and other
            > > > > money that most people bequeath to surviving family members.
            > > > > This shows how callous eckankar is regarding family structure
            > > > > and well-being. Eckankar breaks down family ties in order to
            > > > > get the family money! But of course that is what all cults are
            > > > > after--bleeding chelas dry but making them imagine they are
            > > > > getting something in the bargain, a stairway to heaven, perhaps!
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • prometheus_973
            Hi Mish, I just read your post. Good one! Yes, it does seem like Klemp is taking an awfully long time to train a replacement. HK s Wonderful book has a
            Message 5 of 15 , Oct 5, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi Mish,
              I just read your post. Good one! Yes, it does seem
              like Klemp is taking an awfully long time to "train"
              a replacement. HK's "Wonderful" book has
              a 2005 copyright and he states it will take him
              "several" more years to train someone! A "few"
              means 3-4 right? Therefore, "several" would be
              4-5 or more right? Or, is Klemp incompetent at
              counting as well? If Klemp is being honest and
              is not trying to blind-side his chelas it would seem
              that his replacement won't be ready until, at least,
              Oct. 22, 2009. However, ECKists must always keep
              in mind the Catch-22 rule!

              However, has Klemp ever really been open, honest,
              or clear about anything? Hmmmmm. The closest
              he came to this was when he had to admit (because
              of it being Public Record) that he was locked-up in
              a mental institution. However, Klemp then put his
              Damage Control Spin on this incident (lemons into
              lemonade?) as he typically blamed or found fault with
              everyone at the mental health facility except himself.
              Re-read it for yourself and see! Klemp has never taken
              Responsibility for his harsh words, judgments, or negative
              actions and reactions toward others nor has he, ever,
              shown any Empathy, tolerance, or compassion. These
              are virtures and indicators of a higher Love.

              I challenge ECKists to point out where, in HK's vast
              writings, he has Ever Admitted to having made a Mistake,
              or of Showning Empathy toward others... especially
              to non-ECKists! One can rationalize that it is showing
              "tough love" when involving chelas, but how about
              with others? And No, it's Not Detachment either! It's
              the Catch-22 Mahanta Consciousness Ploy of Denial.
              ECKists are stupid and delusional to believe that everything
              they are told is true... except when they validate it via
              Imagination and with the use of a "charged word!" LOL!
              As Below So Above and Vice-Versa?!

              Yes, HK is always pointing the finger and blaming others.
              Klemp went to the 1971 ECK Worldwide instead of to his
              own father's funeral to be with his mother, brothers, and
              sister. Then, HK makes excuses for this insensitive and
              narcissistic behaviour by quoting Jesus, in his year 2000
              "Autobiography," while Talking About having Love for God.
              Then Klemp tells ECKists that they must have a "Loving Heart"
              and be an example for others. What a hypocrite!

              BTW- Here's what Klemp had to say on Eckankar.org about
              "when" Twitchell first met Rebazar.

              "Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951 in the foothills of the
              Himalayas near Darjeeling." [Hmmmm. This Darjee(ling) sounds
              like Darji]

              http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html

              Therefore, if you believe this crap, Rebazar had from
              1951-1965 to "train" Twitchell for the LEM position.

              Rebazar, during a time when the World's Consciousness
              was lower, took 14 years to "train" Twitchell.

              Then, Twitchell had from 1965-1971 to "train" Gross. This
              is only 6 years. Maybe it took "less" time to train Darwin
              because the World's Consciousness, even due to wars, etc.,
              has expanded even more.

              Gross, then, took 10 years to "train" Klemp. Actually,
              Gross was going to hand the Rod to Klemp in 1980 after
              9 years, but took an extra year to finish Klemp's "training."

              Here's the score on passing the Rod:

              RT-PT=14 years
              PT-DG=6 years
              DG-HK=10 years
              HK-??=25 years

              Does it look like Klemp has, maybe, held onto his Power
              over these EK chelas Way Too Long?

              [BTW-HK's chelas are those First initiated After Oct. 22, 1981.]

              It looks like HK (the most advanced Mahanta ever, he claims)
              Should Not have taken more than 15 years to "train" someone,
              and that's giving him a lot of "wiggle" room.

              Prometheus




              mish wrote:
              >
              > Hi, All!
              >
              > What Prometheus wrote here reminded me of something
              > Klemp wrote in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters." Prometheus
              > wrote:
              >
              > "Isn't it interesting that Klemp, at the 1983 H.I. Meeting,
              > said that he would be the LEM/Mahanta for 10 to 20
              > years in order to complete his mission. And, HK boasted
              > that unlike Darwin he would Let Go of the Rod of ECK
              > Power before it burned him and affected his health.
              >
              > <snipped>
              >
              > Anyway, Klemp has held onto the Rod of ECK Power
              > with a death grip, and has gone way beyond the 20
              > years promised to complete his mission (of building
              > structures)."
              >
              > On pages 235-236, in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters,"
              > Klemp answered in a chela's dream "the length of his
              > service as the Living ECK Master. How long would he
              > serve in that position? Were there others in training?"
              >
              > Klemp wrote, "The Master assured her that a few
              > initiates were indeed in training for leadership in ECK,
              > but no one was ready yet to assume the responsibility.
              > It might take several years or many more for the first
              > one to complete all the tests. Accordingly, the Master
              > would continue for another cycle as the Mahanta, the
              > Living ECK Master. . . . "
              >
              > Doesn't sound like Klemp is ready to step down yet,
              > and that is why I believe after reading what Klemp wrote
              > about Joan in his book, that he was setting the stage
              > for her elevating to a position of great assistence to
              > the godman! I would think that Don Ginn, Peter Skelsky,
              > and the other hopeful "candidates" waiting in the wings
              > for their chance to grasp the rod of eck power would
              > be discouraged after reading Klemp's book. I agree
              > that Klemp seems to have a death grip on his power--
              > he just can't and won't let go of it! : )
              >
              > Mish
              >
              > p.s. Remember that Don Ginn and Peter Skelsky were
              > both on the Board of Trustees and helped Klemp to
              > boot Darwin. These guys were at least 7th initiates
              > 25 years ago, so how embarrassing it must be to them that
              > it is taking so long for the godman Klemp to train them!
              > Either they are slow learners or Klemp is, as we know,
              > incompetent and a fraud--Klemp has none of the powers he
              > claims! Well, stupidity does abound in eckankar for sure!
              >
              > ################################
              >
              > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
              > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hi Mish,
              > > Excellent post! On the other hand... the more I think
              > > about it... perhaps Don will take the place of Peter
              > > Skelsky and Peter will become the next LEM.
              > >
              > > Isn't it interesting that Klemp, at the 1983 H.I. Meeting,
              > > said that he would be the LEM/Mahanta for 10 to 20
              > > years in order to complete his mission. And, HK boasted
              > > that unlike Darwin he would Let Go of the Rod of ECK
              > > Power before it burned him and affected his health.
              > >
              > > Actually, I didn't see where the "Rod" had "burned" DG
              > > and, therefore, supposedly affected his health. HK and
              > > the Board of Trustees are the ones that burned DG!
              > >
              > > Anyway, Klemp has held onto the Rod of ECK Power
              > > with a death grip, and has gone way beyond the 20
              > > years promised to complete his mission (of building
              > > structures).
              > >
              > > What should have been Klemp's mission? Isn't the real
              > > mission of a Mahanta: To take MORE Souls into the HIGHEST
              > > Planes of the Sugmad; To do this more directly or FASTER
              > > than any other religion or spiritual path could; To set
              > > Souls FREE, thus, they too become MASTERS?!
              > >
              > > Instead, Klemp slowed Initiations down, and told ECKists
              > > that he would! Why did he Not Speed these up at some
              > > point? Look at the long-time 7th initiates that have been
              > > 7ths... for 20 plus years! What's with that? Why aren't
              > > there more 8ths? I know that there are 9ths... including
              > > Joan! Why the Glass Ceiling for long-time 7ths and former
              > > RESAs? What does Klemp fear, or is this another effect
              > > from Not having Let Go (of the Rod) when he should have?!
              > >
              > > Yes, Klemp was burned a long time ago when one looks
              > > at his EMR problems beginning around 1990. Look at
              > > his health problems of the last few years! So, I guess
              > > his reasoning is, still, that his replacement wasn't ready.
              > > Is that the way things are supposed to work in Eckankar?
              > >
              > > A replacement is ready when the need arises just like
              > > when the chela is ready the Master will appear. Klemp
              > > can tell chelas anything at anytime and chelas will accept
              > > it because if they can't then something must be wrong
              > > with them. The possibility can never exist that something
              > > is wrong with Klemp or that he is lying. Yet, didn't HK
              > > say that Twitchell 'twisted facts?' And, Marman said that
              > > Twitchell used half-truths while Rich (another ECKist)
              > > claims that PT plagarized 7% of his works! Didn't DG
              > > "fall" from Grace? It's obvious that Klemp had fallen long
              > > ago... circa 1990 perhaps?! The truth does have a bite
              > > to it at times and this is why people will deny it for as
              > > long as they can. This is why HK wants ECKists to "imagine"
              > > that everything is fine with his leadership. The mind is
              > > very powerful... just look at what it can do when under
              > > a concentrated focus... like with hypnosis.
              > >
              > > So why do ECKists believe Klemp's version of truth? it's
              > > because they fear the real truth that he's a fraud. What
              > > else do they have to believe in? Eckankar is their life...
              > > their crutch... they think. But there is much more! And
              > > one can only discover this when they have Let Go...
              > > Break the Chains and stand in a clear new light as a free
              > > Soul.
              > >
              > > However, and on the other hand, after the fiasco with
              > > Darwin one would think that ECKists could handle the
              > > truth. And, wouldn't Klemp want to show the finances
              > > to the General Membership in an Annual Report. That
              > > doesn't happen though does it! Instead, Klemp puts the
              > > fear of asking questions into chelas because questioning
              > > his authority on anything will cause a chela to be held back
              > > on Initiations. Never complain in your IRO or HIRO because
              > > it will be put into your file at the ESC. "Good" ECKists must
              > > always practice the "Law of Silence" and "Surrender" their
              > > ability to think.
              > >
              > > So what's all this mean? It means that most ECKists
              > > really want to see a change in leadership, but can't say
              > > so. Klemp hasn't done anything except to create more
              > > structures and write a ton of worthless books. Why are
              > > these books worthless? Because the "spiritual" message
              > > is way too simple, of lower consciousness, and is redundant
              > > because one can find similar books everywhere and by
              > > other secular or religious writers. Besides, these books
              > > of Klemp's are only directed to the uninitiated public or
              > > to the vast number of simple-minded chelas that don't
              > > "Get It." These are Klemp's other Money Makers because
              > > he gets 50% of the royalities!
              > >
              > > ECKists have been duped for a long time and for 25
              > > years by Klemp! Even this narcissist knows that it has
              > > to end soon. But why travel to Minneapolis to see the
              > > new LEM when you've seen them before and will see and
              > > hear from them more in the future? And, if you're a
              > > True Blue ECKist, of higher consciousness, you should be
              > > able to project yourself there, or see it on the Inner. Right!
              > >
              > > Prometheus
              > >
              > >
              > > Mish wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Hi, Everyone!
              > > >
              > > > When I read Klemp's book "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," I
              > > > saw this book as a tool Klemp had created to elevate Joan
              > > > to an eck master, and I still believe that was one of the basic
              > > > purposes of the book. Klemp thinks he can cleverly insert subtle
              > > > ideas that when the reader goes back later, can say, oh, yes,
              > > > it's in there--how could one miss it! LOL! So, it is in "Those
              > > > Wonderful ECK Masters" that Joan appears in some chelas
              > > > dreams doing what eck masters are supposed to do, helping
              > > > chelas to find the mahanta! Also, in the chapter on Kata Daki,
              > > > Klemp explains how more female eck masters are coming out
              > > > to be known--he states it is now time! Again, it is time for
              > > > Joan to be an eck master. . . . Anyway, this is what I saw in
              > > > the book and I still believe that was Klemp's primary motivation
              > > > to write the book when he did. I also believe that Klemp was
              > > > planning to announce some changes in the leadership of
              > > > eckankar, positioning Joan in a bigger role of power so that
              > > > she could "officially" assist him in his declining years as
              > > > master of the universe. Now, I don't have those feelings of
              > > > a big announcement in that regard coming out publicly to
              > > > the chelas soon, if ever! I guess the chelas will have to get it
              > > > on the inner! LOL!
              > > >
              > > > Seriously, though, positioning Joan in such a way before the
              > > > chelas would at the very least give her some clout if Klemp
              > > > became disabled or dead. I'm sure Klemp is recalling
              > > > what happened when PT suddenly died and how Gail then
              > > > selected the next L.E.M. mahanta in a dream and then later
              > > > married him! Hey, is Don Ginn married??? : )
              > > >
              > > > There are big changes coming in the hierarchial structure
              > > > of the eckankar org--but not sure when it will be announced.
              > > > Maybe Klemp has decided not to appear so frail for the time
              > > > being as he continues his scheming to remain where he is
              > > > in the seat of eck power as long as he can! He's changed his
              > > > course a little bit for now, so I foresee a very boring up-coming
              > > > EWWS! It will be pretty much the same old eckancrap!
              > > >
              > > > Chelas, I advise that you save your time and money by staying
              > > > home . . . or if you're truly in the mood to travel, go some
              > > > place fun and warm for a change! : )
              > > >
              > > > Mish
              > > >
              > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
              > > > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > Hi All,
              > > > > Yes, it seems that Don might be the next LEM while
              > > > > Klemp remains the "full" Mahanta. Of course there is,
              > > > > still, the possibility that Joan is made the Co-LEM
              > > > > (since a female could only share this position, due to
              > > > > "their" negative atoms).
              > > > >
              > > > > As a "junior" and/or Co-LEM (under the guidance &
              > > > > supervision of the "full" LEM/Mahanta) Joan could take
              > > > > over, even more, duties for her husband at the ESC.
              > > > >
              > > > > Or, Don can be given these duties as a "junior" LEM while
              > > > > Joan continues her role at the ESC while spying on Don
              > > > > for HK!
              > > > >
              > > > > Anyway, it's a win/win for them right!
              > > > >
              > > > > I wonder... Would Joan be able to take orders from Don,
              > > > > or will she, only, be obeying the Living ECK... Mahanta
              > > > > like Marge?
              > > > >
              > > > > Prometheus
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > > mish wrote:
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > Hi, Liz!
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > It seems this attorney was thinking outside of the box! : ) When we
              > > > > > close ourselves off from the outside world by joining a cult like
              > > > > > eckankar, we box ourselves into a small isolated tunnel like place and
              > > > > > can forget the basic things in life like "your family comes first."
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > Mish
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > Liz wrote:
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > Hi Mish and all,
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > I am surprised too that eckankar doesn't go into further detail, explaining
              > > > > > how a will should be written so family members can not contest such a
              > > > > > donation. (or do they?)
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > When I was still a member, my DH and I had wills drawn up through an
              > > > > > attorney I use for family issues. I questioned how a portion could be left
              > > > > > to my church. My attorney gave me a funny look and said "your family should
              > > > > > always come first"! We had an interesting conversation, and in the end I
              > > > > > didn't leave anything to eckankar. ;-) All it takes is discussing
              > > > > > something of this nature with an outsider, and they tend to have a much
              > > > > > better way of putting the important things into perspective.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Liz
              > > > > >
              > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Mish wrote:
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > Here's the exact statement posted by Bob Hepple on the
              > > > > > California Satsang Society Chela News & Events publication
              > > > > > regarding raising money for their building fund:
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > "How can I donate? There are many ways that you can donate.
              > > > > > Enclosed is an envelope and donation form that will allow
              > > > > > you to receive a tax receipt for your check or credit card
              > > > > > donation. Also enclosed are two brochures, published by
              > > > > > ECKANKAR Spiritual Center, that explain how to bequeath
              > > > > > the California Satsang Society in your will or living trust,
              > > > > > or make the Society a beneficiary of your retirement,
              > > > > > pension plan, or life insurance policy."
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > This very plainly states how such cult groups like eckankar go
              > > > > > after members' money.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > <snip>
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Another disturbing thing is how blatantly eckankar goes after
              > > > > > members money including pensions, life insurance and other
              > > > > > money that most people bequeath to surviving family members.
              > > > > > This shows how callous eckankar is regarding family structure
              > > > > > and well-being. Eckankar breaks down family ties in order to
              > > > > > get the family money! But of course that is what all cults are
              > > > > > after--bleeding chelas dry but making them imagine they are
              > > > > > getting something in the bargain, a stairway to heaven, perhaps!
              > > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • prometheus_973
              I was thinking about what Klemp said about Gross holding onto the Rod of ECK Power beyond his time and was, therefore, burned by it. If this is true that
              Message 6 of 15 , Oct 6, 2007
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                I was thinking about what Klemp said about Gross
                holding onto the Rod of ECK Power beyond his time
                and was, therefore, "burned" by it.

                If this is true that Gross should have passed the Rod
                to Klemp in 1980 (or to someone else) can Eckists,
                then, really blame Gross (for his actions) anymore than
                they could blame Klemp for slowing their spiritual growth
                (initiations)? What is more important for ECKists? Fiscal
                Responsibility, Buildings, or Initiations? I was, mostly,
                focused on spiritual growth... Initiations!

                Actually, Klemp has more blame by hanging onto
                this Power way longer than any 20th Century LEM,
                and for delaying and limiting initiations. There should
                be at least 33 9ths, 333 8ths, and 3,333 7ths after
                25 years of "leadership." Sure, this would make the org
                very "top heavy" but so what! It should be! Aren't Eckists
                supposed to be the "cream of the crop?" Why then don't
                the initiations reflect this? See, this is just one of
                many reasons why the long-time Eckists want to see
                Klemp step down.

                HK restructured the org and moved the headquarters
                in order to have Total Control over the EK Board of
                Trustees. The RESA structure is the extended arm of
                this control.

                What were viewed as inappropiate actions by Gross
                were really just the "effects" of hanging onto the Rod
                beyond his time. DG's rationale and thinking was off
                balance and askewed. Consideration and understanding
                are still lacking for this phenomonia of holding onto
                the "Rod" beyond the time the LEM should. Klemp is
                still holding a grudge!

                Even today, the RESA police spy on Eckists with informers
                as they ferret out those who are Not supposed to even
                speak Darwin's name! And, let's face it, there will never
                be discussions of the "positive" elements concerning those
                10 lost years of EK History. This is extremely strange since
                most Higher Initiates (6-14) have most of their initiations
                from those 10 years under Gross!

                Klemp's chelas, from Oct. 22, 1981, are mostly 4ths and
                5ths! Let's face it, according to EK Dogma Chelas, H.I.s
                are Not Established on the SOUL PLANE "until" they have
                become 6ths!

                This 6th initiation is the "proof" that they have completed
                all of the trails and tests for the 5th initiation. I wonder
                if this was always the case? Or, did Klemp redefine this
                dogma (with these restrictions) "after" he slowed the
                initiations down?

                Therefore, Klemp might want to hold onto his MAHANTA
                position, until, he can get the majority of "his" Chelas to
                the 6th initiation. Maybe this is why he slowed initiations
                down in the first place? Maybe it was used as a ploy, along
                with building structures, to insure that he would need to
                be the LEM and/or Mahanta for 25-30 years or longer!

                Yes, Klemp is very selfish and has done ECK Chelas an
                even greater injustice than Gross ever did. Klemp's focus
                has been on the tangible instead of the intangible.

                Prometheus

                ***
                Prometheus wrote:
                >
                > Hi Mish,
                > I just read your post. Good one! Yes, it does seem
                > like Klemp is taking an awfully long time to "train"
                > a replacement. HK's "Wonderful" book has
                > a 2005 copyright and he states it will take him
                > "several" more years to train someone! A "few"
                > means 3-4 right? Therefore, "several" would be
                > 4-5 or more right? Or, is Klemp incompetent at
                > counting as well? If Klemp is being honest and
                > is not trying to blind-side his chelas it would seem
                > that his replacement won't be ready until, at least,
                > Oct. 22, 2009. However, ECKists must always keep
                > in mind the Catch-22 rule!
                >
                > However, has Klemp ever really been open, honest,
                > or clear about anything? Hmmmmm. The closest
                > he came to this was when he had to admit (because
                > of it being Public Record) that he was locked-up in
                > a mental institution. However, Klemp then put his
                > Damage Control Spin on this incident (lemons into
                > lemonade?) as he typically blamed or found fault with
                > everyone at the mental health facility except himself.
                > Re-read it for yourself and see! Klemp has never taken
                > Responsibility for his harsh words, judgments, or negative
                > actions and reactions toward others nor has he, ever,
                > shown any Empathy, tolerance, or compassion. These
                > are virtures and indicators of a higher Love.
                >
                > I challenge ECKists to point out where, in HK's vast
                > writings, he has Ever Admitted to having made a Mistake,
                > or of Showning Empathy toward others... especially
                > to non-ECKists! One can rationalize that it is showing
                > "tough love" when involving chelas, but how about
                > with others? And No, it's Not Detachment either! It's
                > the Catch-22 Mahanta Consciousness Ploy of Denial.
                > ECKists are stupid and delusional to believe that everything
                > they are told is true... except when they validate it via
                > Imagination and with the use of a "charged word!" LOL!
                > As Below So Above and Vice-Versa?!
                >
                > Yes, HK is always pointing the finger and blaming others.
                > Klemp went to the 1971 ECK Worldwide instead of to his
                > own father's funeral to be with his mother, brothers, and
                > sister. Then, HK makes excuses for this insensitive and
                > narcissistic behaviour by quoting Jesus, in his year 2000
                > "Autobiography," while Talking About having Love for God.
                > Then Klemp tells ECKists that they must have a "Loving Heart"
                > and be an example for others. What a hypocrite!
                >
                > BTW- Here's what Klemp had to say on Eckankar.org about
                > "when" Twitchell first met Rebazar.
                >
                > "Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951 in the foothills of the
                > Himalayas near Darjeeling." [Hmmmm. This Darjee(ling) sounds
                > like Darji]
                >
                > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html
                >
                > Therefore, if you believe this crap, Rebazar had from
                > 1951-1965 to "train" Twitchell for the LEM position.
                >
                > Rebazar, during a time when the World's Consciousness
                > was lower, took 14 years to "train" Twitchell.
                >
                > Then, Twitchell had from 1965-1971 to "train" Gross. This
                > is only 6 years. Maybe it took "less" time to train Darwin
                > because the World's Consciousness, even due to wars, etc.,
                > has expanded even more.
                >
                > Gross, then, took 10 years to "train" Klemp. Actually,
                > Gross was going to hand the Rod to Klemp in 1980 after
                > 9 years, but took an extra year to finish Klemp's "training."
                >
                > Here's the score on passing the Rod:
                >
                > RT-PT=14 years
                > PT-DG=6 years
                > DG-HK=10 years
                > HK-??=25 years
                >
                > Does it look like Klemp has, maybe, held onto his Power
                > over these EK chelas Way Too Long?
                >
                > [BTW-HK's chelas are those First initiated After Oct. 22, 1981.]
                >
                > It looks like HK (the most advanced Mahanta ever, he claims)
                > Should Not have taken more than 15 years to "train" someone,
                > and that's giving him a lot of "wiggle" room.
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > mish wrote:
                > >
                > > Hi, All!
                > >
                > > What Prometheus wrote here reminded me of something
                > > Klemp wrote in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters." Prometheus
                > > wrote:
                > >
                > > "Isn't it interesting that Klemp, at the 1983 H.I. Meeting,
                > > said that he would be the LEM/Mahanta for 10 to 20
                > > years in order to complete his mission. And, HK boasted
                > > that unlike Darwin he would Let Go of the Rod of ECK
                > > Power before it burned him and affected his health.
                > >
                > > <snipped>
                > >
                > > Anyway, Klemp has held onto the Rod of ECK Power
                > > with a death grip, and has gone way beyond the 20
                > > years promised to complete his mission (of building
                > > structures)."
                > >
                > > On pages 235-236, in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters,"
                > > Klemp answered in a chela's dream "the length of his
                > > service as the Living ECK Master. How long would he
                > > serve in that position? Were there others in training?"
                > >
                > > Klemp wrote, "The Master assured her that a few
                > > initiates were indeed in training for leadership in ECK,
                > > but no one was ready yet to assume the responsibility.
                > > It might take several years or many more for the first
                > > one to complete all the tests. Accordingly, the Master
                > > would continue for another cycle as the Mahanta, the
                > > Living ECK Master. . . . "
                > >
                > > Doesn't sound like Klemp is ready to step down yet,
                > > and that is why I believe after reading what Klemp wrote
                > > about Joan in his book, that he was setting the stage
                > > for her elevating to a position of great assistence to
                > > the godman! I would think that Don Ginn, Peter Skelsky,
                > > and the other hopeful "candidates" waiting in the wings
                > > for their chance to grasp the rod of eck power would
                > > be discouraged after reading Klemp's book. I agree
                > > that Klemp seems to have a death grip on his power--
                > > he just can't and won't let go of it! : )
                > >
                > > Mish
                > >
                > > p.s. Remember that Don Ginn and Peter Skelsky were
                > > both on the Board of Trustees and helped Klemp to
                > > boot Darwin. These guys were at least 7th initiates
                > > 25 years ago, so how embarrassing it must be to them that
                > > it is taking so long for the godman Klemp to train them!
                > > Either they are slow learners or Klemp is, as we know,
                > > incompetent and a fraud--Klemp has none of the powers he
                > > claims! Well, stupidity does abound in eckankar for sure!
                > >
                > > ################################
                > >
                > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                > > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Hi Mish,
                > > > Excellent post! On the other hand... the more I think
                > > > about it... perhaps Don will take the place of Peter
                > > > Skelsky and Peter will become the next LEM.
                > > >
                > > > Isn't it interesting that Klemp, at the 1983 H.I. Meeting,
                > > > said that he would be the LEM/Mahanta for 10 to 20
                > > > years in order to complete his mission. And, HK boasted
                > > > that unlike Darwin he would Let Go of the Rod of ECK
                > > > Power before it burned him and affected his health.
                > > >
                > > > Actually, I didn't see where the "Rod" had "burned" DG
                > > > and, therefore, supposedly affected his health. HK and
                > > > the Board of Trustees are the ones that burned DG!
                > > >
                > > > Anyway, Klemp has held onto the Rod of ECK Power
                > > > with a death grip, and has gone way beyond the 20
                > > > years promised to complete his mission (of building
                > > > structures).
                > > >
                > > > What should have been Klemp's mission? Isn't the real
                > > > mission of a Mahanta: To take MORE Souls into the HIGHEST
                > > > Planes of the Sugmad; To do this more directly or FASTER
                > > > than any other religion or spiritual path could; To set
                > > > Souls FREE, thus, they too become MASTERS?!
                > > >
                > > > Instead, Klemp slowed Initiations down, and told ECKists
                > > > that he would! Why did he Not Speed these up at some
                > > > point? Look at the long-time 7th initiates that have been
                > > > 7ths... for 20 plus years! What's with that? Why aren't
                > > > there more 8ths? I know that there are 9ths... including
                > > > Joan! Why the Glass Ceiling for long-time 7ths and former
                > > > RESAs? What does Klemp fear, or is this another effect
                > > > from Not having Let Go (of the Rod) when he should have?!
                > > >
                > > > Yes, Klemp was burned a long time ago when one looks
                > > > at his EMR problems beginning around 1990. Look at
                > > > his health problems of the last few years! So, I guess
                > > > his reasoning is, still, that his replacement wasn't ready.
                > > > Is that the way things are supposed to work in Eckankar?
                > > >
                > > > A replacement is ready when the need arises just like
                > > > when the chela is ready the Master will appear. Klemp
                > > > can tell chelas anything at anytime and chelas will accept
                > > > it because if they can't then something must be wrong
                > > > with them. The possibility can never exist that something
                > > > is wrong with Klemp or that he is lying. Yet, didn't HK
                > > > say that Twitchell 'twisted facts?' And, Marman said that
                > > > Twitchell used half-truths while Rich (another ECKist)
                > > > claims that PT plagarized 7% of his works! Didn't DG
                > > > "fall" from Grace? It's obvious that Klemp had fallen long
                > > > ago... circa 1990 perhaps?! The truth does have a bite
                > > > to it at times and this is why people will deny it for as
                > > > long as they can. This is why HK wants ECKists to "imagine"
                > > > that everything is fine with his leadership. The mind is
                > > > very powerful... just look at what it can do when under
                > > > a concentrated focus... like with hypnosis.
                > > >
                > > > So why do ECKists believe Klemp's version of truth? it's
                > > > because they fear the real truth that he's a fraud. What
                > > > else do they have to believe in? Eckankar is their life...
                > > > their crutch... they think. But there is much more! And
                > > > one can only discover this when they have Let Go...
                > > > Break the Chains and stand in a clear new light as a free
                > > > Soul.
                > > >
                > > > However, and on the other hand, after the fiasco with
                > > > Darwin one would think that ECKists could handle the
                > > > truth. And, wouldn't Klemp want to show the finances
                > > > to the General Membership in an Annual Report. That
                > > > doesn't happen though does it! Instead, Klemp puts the
                > > > fear of asking questions into chelas because questioning
                > > > his authority on anything will cause a chela to be held back
                > > > on Initiations. Never complain in your IRO or HIRO because
                > > > it will be put into your file at the ESC. "Good" ECKists must
                > > > always practice the "Law of Silence" and "Surrender" their
                > > > ability to think.
                > > >
                > > > So what's all this mean? It means that most ECKists
                > > > really want to see a change in leadership, but can't say
                > > > so. Klemp hasn't done anything except to create more
                > > > structures and write a ton of worthless books. Why are
                > > > these books worthless? Because the "spiritual" message
                > > > is way too simple, of lower consciousness, and is redundant
                > > > because one can find similar books everywhere and by
                > > > other secular or religious writers. Besides, these books
                > > > of Klemp's are only directed to the uninitiated public or
                > > > to the vast number of simple-minded chelas that don't
                > > > "Get It." These are Klemp's other Money Makers because
                > > > he gets 50% of the royalities!
                > > >
                > > > ECKists have been duped for a long time and for 25
                > > > years by Klemp! Even this narcissist knows that it has
                > > > to end soon. But why travel to Minneapolis to see the
                > > > new LEM when you've seen them before and will see and
                > > > hear from them more in the future? And, if you're a
                > > > True Blue ECKist, of higher consciousness, you should be
                > > > able to project yourself there, or see it on the Inner. Right!
                > > >
                > > > Prometheus
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Mish wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > Hi, Everyone!
                > > > >
                > > > > When I read Klemp's book "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," I
                > > > > saw this book as a tool Klemp had created to elevate Joan
                > > > > to an eck master, and I still believe that was one of the basic
                > > > > purposes of the book. Klemp thinks he can cleverly insert subtle
                > > > > ideas that when the reader goes back later, can say, oh, yes,
                > > > > it's in there--how could one miss it! LOL! So, it is in "Those
                > > > > Wonderful ECK Masters" that Joan appears in some chelas
                > > > > dreams doing what eck masters are supposed to do, helping
                > > > > chelas to find the mahanta! Also, in the chapter on Kata Daki,
                > > > > Klemp explains how more female eck masters are coming out
                > > > > to be known--he states it is now time! Again, it is time for
                > > > > Joan to be an eck master. . . . Anyway, this is what I saw in
                > > > > the book and I still believe that was Klemp's primary motivation
                > > > > to write the book when he did. I also believe that Klemp was
                > > > > planning to announce some changes in the leadership of
                > > > > eckankar, positioning Joan in a bigger role of power so that
                > > > > she could "officially" assist him in his declining years as
                > > > > master of the universe. Now, I don't have those feelings of
                > > > > a big announcement in that regard coming out publicly to
                > > > > the chelas soon, if ever! I guess the chelas will have to get it
                > > > > on the inner! LOL!
                > > > >
                > > > > Seriously, though, positioning Joan in such a way before the
                > > > > chelas would at the very least give her some clout if Klemp
                > > > > became disabled or dead. I'm sure Klemp is recalling
                > > > > what happened when PT suddenly died and how Gail then
                > > > > selected the next L.E.M. mahanta in a dream and then later
                > > > > married him! Hey, is Don Ginn married??? : )
                > > > >
                > > > > There are big changes coming in the hierarchial structure
                > > > > of the eckankar org--but not sure when it will be announced.
                > > > > Maybe Klemp has decided not to appear so frail for the time
                > > > > being as he continues his scheming to remain where he is
                > > > > in the seat of eck power as long as he can! He's changed his
                > > > > course a little bit for now, so I foresee a very boring up-coming
                > > > > EWWS! It will be pretty much the same old eckancrap!
                > > > >
                > > > > Chelas, I advise that you save your time and money by staying
                > > > > home . . . or if you're truly in the mood to travel, go some
                > > > > place fun and warm for a change! : )
                > > > >
                > > > > Mish
                > > > >
                > > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                > > > > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Hi All,
                > > > > > Yes, it seems that Don might be the next LEM while
                > > > > > Klemp remains the "full" Mahanta. Of course there is,
                > > > > > still, the possibility that Joan is made the Co-LEM
                > > > > > (since a female could only share this position, due to
                > > > > > "their" negative atoms).
                > > > > >
                > > > > > As a "junior" and/or Co-LEM (under the guidance &
                > > > > > supervision of the "full" LEM/Mahanta) Joan could take
                > > > > > over, even more, duties for her husband at the ESC.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Or, Don can be given these duties as a "junior" LEM while
                > > > > > Joan continues her role at the ESC while spying on Don
                > > > > > for HK!
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Anyway, it's a win/win for them right!
                > > > > >
                > > > > > I wonder... Would Joan be able to take orders from Don,
                > > > > > or will she, only, be obeying the Living ECK... Mahanta
                > > > > > like Marge?
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Prometheus
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > > mish wrote:
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Hi, Liz!
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > It seems this attorney was thinking outside of the box! : ) When we
                > > > > > > close ourselves off from the outside world by joining a cult like
                > > > > > > eckankar, we box ourselves into a small isolated tunnel like place and
                > > > > > > can forget the basic things in life like "your family comes first."
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Mish
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Liz wrote:
                > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Hi Mish and all,
                > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > I am surprised too that eckankar doesn't go into further detail, explaining
                > > > > > > how a will should be written so family members can not contest such a
                > > > > > > donation. (or do they?)
                > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > When I was still a member, my DH and I had wills drawn up through an
                > > > > > > attorney I use for family issues. I questioned how a portion could be left
                > > > > > > to my church. My attorney gave me a funny look and said "your family
                should
                > > > > > > always come first"! We had an interesting conversation, and in the end I
                > > > > > > didn't leave anything to eckankar. ;-) All it takes is discussing
                > > > > > > something of this nature with an outsider, and they tend to have a much
                > > > > > > better way of putting the important things into perspective.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Liz
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Mish wrote:
                > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Here's the exact statement posted by Bob Hepple on the
                > > > > > > California Satsang Society Chela News & Events publication
                > > > > > > regarding raising money for their building fund:
                > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > "How can I donate? There are many ways that you can donate.
                > > > > > > Enclosed is an envelope and donation form that will allow
                > > > > > > you to receive a tax receipt for your check or credit card
                > > > > > > donation. Also enclosed are two brochures, published by
                > > > > > > ECKANKAR Spiritual Center, that explain how to bequeath
                > > > > > > the California Satsang Society in your will or living trust,
                > > > > > > or make the Society a beneficiary of your retirement,
                > > > > > > pension plan, or life insurance policy."
                > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > This very plainly states how such cult groups like eckankar go
                > > > > > > after members' money.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > <snip>
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Another disturbing thing is how blatantly eckankar goes after
                > > > > > > members money including pensions, life insurance and other
                > > > > > > money that most people bequeath to surviving family members.
                > > > > > > This shows how callous eckankar is regarding family structure
                > > > > > > and well-being. Eckankar breaks down family ties in order to
                > > > > > > get the family money! But of course that is what all cults are
                > > > > > > after--bleeding chelas dry but making them imagine they are
                > > > > > > getting something in the bargain, a stairway to heaven, perhaps!
                > > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • mishmisha9
                LET S DISCUSS KLEMP MORE! WHAT S WRONG WITH HIM AND ALL HIS FOIBLES AS A SELF-PROCLAIMED GODMAN! IT IS NOT ALL ABOUT TWITCHELL! For me, actually, eckankar is
                Message 7 of 15 , Oct 6, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  LET'S DISCUSS KLEMP MORE! WHAT'S WRONG WITH
                  HIM AND ALL HIS FOIBLES AS A SELF-PROCLAIMED
                  GODMAN! IT IS NOT ALL ABOUT TWITCHELL!

                  For me, actually, eckankar is just a man-made new
                  age religion. Why and what Twitchell did in creating it
                  can be debated until the cows come home. Everyone
                  interested in this strange little known cult the least
                  little bit takes one side or the other in the debate which
                  basically comes down to how important or insignificant
                  the plagiarisms and lies are to the eckankar teachings.
                  Those who remain in eckankar have chosen to miminalize
                  the fraud that has taken place and are quite confortable
                  to remain in the delusion and illusion of the eck teachings.
                  They support Klemp as he continues the lies and deceptions,
                  keeping silent as he also molds eckankar to fit his
                  narrow-minded, anti-social and narcissistic personality.
                  Many eckists become like him which is not something one
                  should really strive for! : )

                  But to take this to a present day discussion, why do we not,
                  meaning eckists and non-eckists alike debate the leadership
                  of Klemp??? Klemp has been the mahanta/L.E.M. far longer
                  than his predecessors, their years combined. It seems to me
                  that we need to look long and hard at what Klemp has done
                  and is doing since taking the reins of eckankar and shaping it
                  into his creation. To me, what eckankar is today is greatly flawed
                  by Klemp's shifty hands! He is no godman--how can anyone
                  consider such a silly, nerdy looking and odd speaking man a
                  god incarnate? Just looking at him and listening to his stupid
                  talks makes the whole org look ridiculous!! He's a joke and
                  there's nothing special or original about him! LOL!

                  My guess is that many long time eckists are waiting, still
                  waiting, for the winds of change to happen--when Klemp
                  either steps down or is removed from his throne. I believe
                  that many of the true eckists are just waiting for a power
                  shift in leadership which they hope will then bring the outer
                  org in line with what they are feeling/experiencing on their
                  inner! They are hopeful that eckankar will become the
                  religion they have longed for! : )

                  Klemp must fear these patient chelas very much, and thus, he
                  has slowed down the initiations in order to remain in control.
                  It seems this is the true reason for being stingy about the
                  initiations! Klemp is a stingy and fearful little old man--he
                  is no guru or godman! So again I ask, why not discuss Klemp,
                  and let Twitchell be for the most part? Let's get to the heart of
                  the matter which is what Klemp is doing with eckankar! The
                  continuing discussions about how eckankar began and how
                  Twitchell established it, speculating on his motivations, etc.
                  are all distractions from what needs to be analyzed today--
                  that being Harold Klemp and what he has done to eckankar!
                  My gut feeling is that Twitchell would not be happy with what
                  Harold has done to his creation! LOL!

                  BTW, I didn't leave eckankar because of David Lane's book-I
                  haven't read it. I left because of Ford Johnson's "Confessions
                  of a God Seeker." Many eckists left after becoming aware of
                  Ford's book. No need to give Lane all the credit. Others have left
                  because they saw through the veil of illusion--they knew
                  something wasn't right in belonging to the eck cult and they
                  hit the road on their own! There are many reasons and ways
                  that one can wake up to the truth about eckankar . . . and get
                  out! : )

                  Mish

                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                  "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I was thinking about what Klemp said about Gross
                  > holding onto the Rod of ECK Power beyond his time
                  > and was, therefore, "burned" by it.
                  >
                  > If this is true that Gross should have passed the Rod
                  > to Klemp in 1980 (or to someone else) can Eckists,
                  > then, really blame Gross (for his actions) anymore than
                  > they could blame Klemp for slowing their spiritual growth
                  > (initiations)? What is more important for ECKists? Fiscal
                  > Responsibility, Buildings, or Initiations? I was, mostly,
                  > focused on spiritual growth... Initiations!
                  >
                  > Actually, Klemp has more blame by hanging onto
                  > this Power way longer than any 20th Century LEM,
                  > and for delaying and limiting initiations. There should
                  > be at least 33 9ths, 333 8ths, and 3,333 7ths after
                  > 25 years of "leadership." Sure, this would make the org
                  > very "top heavy" but so what! It should be! Aren't Eckists
                  > supposed to be the "cream of the crop?" Why then don't
                  > the initiations reflect this? See, this is just one of
                  > many reasons why the long-time Eckists want to see
                  > Klemp step down.
                  >
                  > HK restructured the org and moved the headquarters
                  > in order to have Total Control over the EK Board of
                  > Trustees. The RESA structure is the extended arm of
                  > this control.
                  >
                  > What were viewed as inappropiate actions by Gross
                  > were really just the "effects" of hanging onto the Rod
                  > beyond his time. DG's rationale and thinking was off
                  > balance and askewed. Consideration and understanding
                  > are still lacking for this phenomonia of holding onto
                  > the "Rod" beyond the time the LEM should. Klemp is
                  > still holding a grudge!
                  >
                  > Even today, the RESA police spy on Eckists with informers
                  > as they ferret out those who are Not supposed to even
                  > speak Darwin's name! And, let's face it, there will never
                  > be discussions of the "positive" elements concerning those
                  > 10 lost years of EK History. This is extremely strange since
                  > most Higher Initiates (6-14) have most of their initiations
                  > from those 10 years under Gross!
                  >
                  > Klemp's chelas, from Oct. 22, 1981, are mostly 4ths and
                  > 5ths! Let's face it, according to EK Dogma Chelas, H.I.s
                  > are Not Established on the SOUL PLANE "until" they have
                  > become 6ths!
                  >
                  > This 6th initiation is the "proof" that they have completed
                  > all of the trails and tests for the 5th initiation. I wonder
                  > if this was always the case? Or, did Klemp redefine this
                  > dogma (with these restrictions) "after" he slowed the
                  > initiations down?
                  >
                  > Therefore, Klemp might want to hold onto his MAHANTA
                  > position, until, he can get the majority of "his" Chelas to
                  > the 6th initiation. Maybe this is why he slowed initiations
                  > down in the first place? Maybe it was used as a ploy, along
                  > with building structures, to insure that he would need to
                  > be the LEM and/or Mahanta for 25-30 years or longer!
                  >
                  > Yes, Klemp is very selfish and has done ECK Chelas an
                  > even greater injustice than Gross ever did. Klemp's focus
                  > has been on the tangible instead of the intangible.
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                  > ***
                  > Prometheus wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hi Mish,
                  > > I just read your post. Good one! Yes, it does seem
                  > > like Klemp is taking an awfully long time to "train"
                  > > a replacement. HK's "Wonderful" book has
                  > > a 2005 copyright and he states it will take him
                  > > "several" more years to train someone! A "few"
                  > > means 3-4 right? Therefore, "several" would be
                  > > 4-5 or more right? Or, is Klemp incompetent at
                  > > counting as well? If Klemp is being honest and
                  > > is not trying to blind-side his chelas it would seem
                  > > that his replacement won't be ready until, at least,
                  > > Oct. 22, 2009. However, ECKists must always keep
                  > > in mind the Catch-22 rule!
                  > >
                  > > However, has Klemp ever really been open, honest,
                  > > or clear about anything? Hmmmmm. The closest
                  > > he came to this was when he had to admit (because
                  > > of it being Public Record) that he was locked-up in
                  > > a mental institution. However, Klemp then put his
                  > > Damage Control Spin on this incident (lemons into
                  > > lemonade?) as he typically blamed or found fault with
                  > > everyone at the mental health facility except himself.
                  > > Re-read it for yourself and see! Klemp has never taken
                  > > Responsibility for his harsh words, judgments, or negative
                  > > actions and reactions toward others nor has he, ever,
                  > > shown any Empathy, tolerance, or compassion. These
                  > > are virtures and indicators of a higher Love.
                  > >
                  > > I challenge ECKists to point out where, in HK's vast
                  > > writings, he has Ever Admitted to having made a Mistake,
                  > > or of Showning Empathy toward others... especially
                  > > to non-ECKists! One can rationalize that it is showing
                  > > "tough love" when involving chelas, but how about
                  > > with others? And No, it's Not Detachment either! It's
                  > > the Catch-22 Mahanta Consciousness Ploy of Denial.
                  > > ECKists are stupid and delusional to believe that everything
                  > > they are told is true... except when they validate it via
                  > > Imagination and with the use of a "charged word!" LOL!
                  > > As Below So Above and Vice-Versa?!
                  > >
                  > > Yes, HK is always pointing the finger and blaming others.
                  > > Klemp went to the 1971 ECK Worldwide instead of to his
                  > > own father's funeral to be with his mother, brothers, and
                  > > sister. Then, HK makes excuses for this insensitive and
                  > > narcissistic behaviour by quoting Jesus, in his year 2000
                  > > "Autobiography," while Talking About having Love for God.
                  > > Then Klemp tells ECKists that they must have a "Loving Heart"
                  > > and be an example for others. What a hypocrite!
                  > >
                  > > BTW- Here's what Klemp had to say on Eckankar.org about
                  > > "when" Twitchell first met Rebazar.
                  > >
                  > > "Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951 in the foothills of the
                  > > Himalayas near Darjeeling." [Hmmmm. This Darjee(ling) sounds
                  > > like Darji]
                  > >
                  > > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html
                  > >
                  > > Therefore, if you believe this crap, Rebazar had from
                  > > 1951-1965 to "train" Twitchell for the LEM position.
                  > >
                  > > Rebazar, during a time when the World's Consciousness
                  > > was lower, took 14 years to "train" Twitchell.
                  > >
                  > > Then, Twitchell had from 1965-1971 to "train" Gross. This
                  > > is only 6 years. Maybe it took "less" time to train Darwin
                  > > because the World's Consciousness, even due to wars, etc.,
                  > > has expanded even more.
                  > >
                  > > Gross, then, took 10 years to "train" Klemp. Actually,
                  > > Gross was going to hand the Rod to Klemp in 1980 after
                  > > 9 years, but took an extra year to finish Klemp's "training."
                  > >
                  > > Here's the score on passing the Rod:
                  > >
                  > > RT-PT=14 years
                  > > PT-DG=6 years
                  > > DG-HK=10 years
                  > > HK-??=25 years
                  > >
                  > > Does it look like Klemp has, maybe, held onto his Power
                  > > over these EK chelas Way Too Long?
                  > >
                  > > [BTW-HK's chelas are those First initiated After Oct. 22, 1981.]
                  > >
                  > > It looks like HK (the most advanced Mahanta ever, he claims)
                  > > Should Not have taken more than 15 years to "train" someone,
                  > > and that's giving him a lot of "wiggle" room.
                  > >
                  > > Prometheus
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > mish wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Hi, All!
                  > > >
                  > > > What Prometheus wrote here reminded me of something
                  > > > Klemp wrote in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters." Prometheus
                  > > > wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > "Isn't it interesting that Klemp, at the 1983 H.I. Meeting,
                  > > > said that he would be the LEM/Mahanta for 10 to 20
                  > > > years in order to complete his mission. And, HK boasted
                  > > > that unlike Darwin he would Let Go of the Rod of ECK
                  > > > Power before it burned him and affected his health.
                  > > >
                  > > > <snipped>
                  > > >
                  > > > Anyway, Klemp has held onto the Rod of ECK Power
                  > > > with a death grip, and has gone way beyond the 20
                  > > > years promised to complete his mission (of building
                  > > > structures)."
                  > > >
                  > > > On pages 235-236, in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters,"
                  > > > Klemp answered in a chela's dream "the length of his
                  > > > service as the Living ECK Master. How long would he
                  > > > serve in that position? Were there others in training?"
                  > > >
                  > > > Klemp wrote, "The Master assured her that a few
                  > > > initiates were indeed in training for leadership in ECK,
                  > > > but no one was ready yet to assume the responsibility.
                  > > > It might take several years or many more for the first
                  > > > one to complete all the tests. Accordingly, the Master
                  > > > would continue for another cycle as the Mahanta, the
                  > > > Living ECK Master. . . . "
                  > > >
                  > > > Doesn't sound like Klemp is ready to step down yet,
                  > > > and that is why I believe after reading what Klemp wrote
                  > > > about Joan in his book, that he was setting the stage
                  > > > for her elevating to a position of great assistence to
                  > > > the godman! I would think that Don Ginn, Peter Skelsky,
                  > > > and the other hopeful "candidates" waiting in the wings
                  > > > for their chance to grasp the rod of eck power would
                  > > > be discouraged after reading Klemp's book. I agree
                  > > > that Klemp seems to have a death grip on his power--
                  > > > he just can't and won't let go of it! : )
                  > > >
                  > > > Mish
                  > > >
                  > > > p.s. Remember that Don Ginn and Peter Skelsky were
                  > > > both on the Board of Trustees and helped Klemp to
                  > > > boot Darwin. These guys were at least 7th initiates
                  > > > 25 years ago, so how embarrassing it must be to them that
                  > > > it is taking so long for the godman Klemp to train them!
                  > > > Either they are slow learners or Klemp is, as we know,
                  > > > incompetent and a fraud--Klemp has none of the powers he
                  > > > claims! Well, stupidity does abound in eckankar for sure!
                  > > >
                  > > > ################################
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                  > > > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Hi Mish,
                  > > > > Excellent post! On the other hand... the more I think
                  > > > > about it... perhaps Don will take the place of Peter
                  > > > > Skelsky and Peter will become the next LEM.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Isn't it interesting that Klemp, at the 1983 H.I. Meeting,
                  > > > > said that he would be the LEM/Mahanta for 10 to 20
                  > > > > years in order to complete his mission. And, HK boasted
                  > > > > that unlike Darwin he would Let Go of the Rod of ECK
                  > > > > Power before it burned him and affected his health.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Actually, I didn't see where the "Rod" had "burned" DG
                  > > > > and, therefore, supposedly affected his health. HK and
                  > > > > the Board of Trustees are the ones that burned DG!
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Anyway, Klemp has held onto the Rod of ECK Power
                  > > > > with a death grip, and has gone way beyond the 20
                  > > > > years promised to complete his mission (of building
                  > > > > structures).
                  > > > >
                  > > > > What should have been Klemp's mission? Isn't the real
                  > > > > mission of a Mahanta: To take MORE Souls into the HIGHEST
                  > > > > Planes of the Sugmad; To do this more directly or FASTER
                  > > > > than any other religion or spiritual path could; To set
                  > > > > Souls FREE, thus, they too become MASTERS?!
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Instead, Klemp slowed Initiations down, and told ECKists
                  > > > > that he would! Why did he Not Speed these up at some
                  > > > > point? Look at the long-time 7th initiates that have been
                  > > > > 7ths... for 20 plus years! What's with that? Why aren't
                  > > > > there more 8ths? I know that there are 9ths... including
                  > > > > Joan! Why the Glass Ceiling for long-time 7ths and former
                  > > > > RESAs? What does Klemp fear, or is this another effect
                  > > > > from Not having Let Go (of the Rod) when he should have?!
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Yes, Klemp was burned a long time ago when one looks
                  > > > > at his EMR problems beginning around 1990. Look at
                  > > > > his health problems of the last few years! So, I guess
                  > > > > his reasoning is, still, that his replacement wasn't ready.
                  > > > > Is that the way things are supposed to work in Eckankar?
                  > > > >
                  > > > > A replacement is ready when the need arises just like
                  > > > > when the chela is ready the Master will appear. Klemp
                  > > > > can tell chelas anything at anytime and chelas will accept
                  > > > > it because if they can't then something must be wrong
                  > > > > with them. The possibility can never exist that something
                  > > > > is wrong with Klemp or that he is lying. Yet, didn't HK
                  > > > > say that Twitchell 'twisted facts?' And, Marman said that
                  > > > > Twitchell used half-truths while Rich (another ECKist)
                  > > > > claims that PT plagarized 7% of his works! Didn't DG
                  > > > > "fall" from Grace? It's obvious that Klemp had fallen long
                  > > > > ago... circa 1990 perhaps?! The truth does have a bite
                  > > > > to it at times and this is why people will deny it for as
                  > > > > long as they can. This is why HK wants ECKists to "imagine"
                  > > > > that everything is fine with his leadership. The mind is
                  > > > > very powerful... just look at what it can do when under
                  > > > > a concentrated focus... like with hypnosis.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > So why do ECKists believe Klemp's version of truth? it's
                  > > > > because they fear the real truth that he's a fraud. What
                  > > > > else do they have to believe in? Eckankar is their life...
                  > > > > their crutch... they think. But there is much more! And
                  > > > > one can only discover this when they have Let Go...
                  > > > > Break the Chains and stand in a clear new light as a free
                  > > > > Soul.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > However, and on the other hand, after the fiasco with
                  > > > > Darwin one would think that ECKists could handle the
                  > > > > truth. And, wouldn't Klemp want to show the finances
                  > > > > to the General Membership in an Annual Report. That
                  > > > > doesn't happen though does it! Instead, Klemp puts the
                  > > > > fear of asking questions into chelas because questioning
                  > > > > his authority on anything will cause a chela to be held back
                  > > > > on Initiations. Never complain in your IRO or HIRO because
                  > > > > it will be put into your file at the ESC. "Good" ECKists must
                  > > > > always practice the "Law of Silence" and "Surrender" their
                  > > > > ability to think.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > So what's all this mean? It means that most ECKists
                  > > > > really want to see a change in leadership, but can't say
                  > > > > so. Klemp hasn't done anything except to create more
                  > > > > structures and write a ton of worthless books. Why are
                  > > > > these books worthless? Because the "spiritual" message
                  > > > > is way too simple, of lower consciousness, and is redundant
                  > > > > because one can find similar books everywhere and by
                  > > > > other secular or religious writers. Besides, these books
                  > > > > of Klemp's are only directed to the uninitiated public or
                  > > > > to the vast number of simple-minded chelas that don't
                  > > > > "Get It." These are Klemp's other Money Makers because
                  > > > > he gets 50% of the royalities!
                  > > > >
                  > > > > ECKists have been duped for a long time and for 25
                  > > > > years by Klemp! Even this narcissist knows that it has
                  > > > > to end soon. But why travel to Minneapolis to see the
                  > > > > new LEM when you've seen them before and will see and
                  > > > > hear from them more in the future? And, if you're a
                  > > > > True Blue ECKist, of higher consciousness, you should be
                  > > > > able to project yourself there, or see it on the Inner. Right!
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Prometheus
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Mish wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Hi, Everyone!
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > When I read Klemp's book "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," I
                  > > > > > saw this book as a tool Klemp had created to elevate Joan
                  > > > > > to an eck master, and I still believe that was one of the basic
                  > > > > > purposes of the book. Klemp thinks he can cleverly insert subtle
                  > > > > > ideas that when the reader goes back later, can say, oh, yes,
                  > > > > > it's in there--how could one miss it! LOL! So, it is in "Those
                  > > > > > Wonderful ECK Masters" that Joan appears in some chelas
                  > > > > > dreams doing what eck masters are supposed to do, helping
                  > > > > > chelas to find the mahanta! Also, in the chapter on Kata Daki,
                  > > > > > Klemp explains how more female eck masters are coming out
                  > > > > > to be known--he states it is now time! Again, it is time for
                  > > > > > Joan to be an eck master. . . . Anyway, this is what I saw in
                  > > > > > the book and I still believe that was Klemp's primary motivation
                  > > > > > to write the book when he did. I also believe that Klemp was
                  > > > > > planning to announce some changes in the leadership of
                  > > > > > eckankar, positioning Joan in a bigger role of power so that
                  > > > > > she could "officially" assist him in his declining years as
                  > > > > > master of the universe. Now, I don't have those feelings of
                  > > > > > a big announcement in that regard coming out publicly to
                  > > > > > the chelas soon, if ever! I guess the chelas will have to get it
                  > > > > > on the inner! LOL!
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Seriously, though, positioning Joan in such a way before the
                  > > > > > chelas would at the very least give her some clout if Klemp
                  > > > > > became disabled or dead. I'm sure Klemp is recalling
                  > > > > > what happened when PT suddenly died and how Gail then
                  > > > > > selected the next L.E.M. mahanta in a dream and then later
                  > > > > > married him! Hey, is Don Ginn married??? : )
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > There are big changes coming in the hierarchial structure
                  > > > > > of the eckankar org--but not sure when it will be announced.
                  > > > > > Maybe Klemp has decided not to appear so frail for the time
                  > > > > > being as he continues his scheming to remain where he is
                  > > > > > in the seat of eck power as long as he can! He's changed his
                  > > > > > course a little bit for now, so I foresee a very boring up-coming
                  > > > > > EWWS! It will be pretty much the same old eckancrap!
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Chelas, I advise that you save your time and money by staying
                  > > > > > home . . . or if you're truly in the mood to travel, go some
                  > > > > > place fun and warm for a change! : )
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Mish
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                  > > > > > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Hi All,
                  > > > > > > Yes, it seems that Don might be the next LEM while
                  > > > > > > Klemp remains the "full" Mahanta. Of course there is,
                  > > > > > > still, the possibility that Joan is made the Co-LEM
                  > > > > > > (since a female could only share this position, due to
                  > > > > > > "their" negative atoms).
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > As a "junior" and/or Co-LEM (under the guidance &
                  > > > > > > supervision of the "full" LEM/Mahanta) Joan could take
                  > > > > > > over, even more, duties for her husband at the ESC.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Or, Don can be given these duties as a "junior" LEM while
                  > > > > > > Joan continues her role at the ESC while spying on Don
                  > > > > > > for HK!
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Anyway, it's a win/win for them right!
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > I wonder... Would Joan be able to take orders from Don,
                  > > > > > > or will she, only, be obeying the Living ECK... Mahanta
                  > > > > > > like Marge?
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Prometheus
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > mish wrote:
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > Hi, Liz!
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > It seems this attorney was thinking outside of the box! : ) When we
                  > > > > > > > close ourselves off from the outside world by joining a cult like
                  > > > > > > > eckankar, we box ourselves into a small isolated tunnel like place and
                  > > > > > > > can forget the basic things in life like "your family comes first."
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > Mish
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > Liz wrote:
                  > > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > Hi Mish and all,
                  > > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > I am surprised too that eckankar doesn't go into further detail, explaining
                  > > > > > > > how a will should be written so family members can not contest such a
                  > > > > > > > donation. (or do they?)
                  > > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > When I was still a member, my DH and I had wills drawn up through an
                  > > > > > > > attorney I use for family issues. I questioned how a portion could be left
                  > > > > > > > to my church. My attorney gave me a funny look and said "your family
                  > should
                  > > > > > > > always come first"! We had an interesting conversation, and in the end I
                  > > > > > > > didn't leave anything to eckankar. ;-) All it takes is discussing
                  > > > > > > > something of this nature with an outsider, and they tend to have a much
                  > > > > > > > better way of putting the important things into perspective.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > Liz
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > Mish wrote:
                  > > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > Here's the exact statement posted by Bob Hepple on the
                  > > > > > > > California Satsang Society Chela News & Events publication
                  > > > > > > > regarding raising money for their building fund:
                  > > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > "How can I donate? There are many ways that you can donate.
                  > > > > > > > Enclosed is an envelope and donation form that will allow
                  > > > > > > > you to receive a tax receipt for your check or credit card
                  > > > > > > > donation. Also enclosed are two brochures, published by
                  > > > > > > > ECKANKAR Spiritual Center, that explain how to bequeath
                  > > > > > > > the California Satsang Society in your will or living trust,
                  > > > > > > > or make the Society a beneficiary of your retirement,
                  > > > > > > > pension plan, or life insurance policy."
                  > > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > This very plainly states how such cult groups like eckankar go
                  > > > > > > > after members' money.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > <snip>
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > Another disturbing thing is how blatantly eckankar goes after
                  > > > > > > > members money including pensions, life insurance and other
                  > > > > > > > money that most people bequeath to surviving family members.
                  > > > > > > > This shows how callous eckankar is regarding family structure
                  > > > > > > > and well-being. Eckankar breaks down family ties in order to
                  > > > > > > > get the family money! But of course that is what all cults are
                  > > > > > > > after--bleeding chelas dry but making them imagine they are
                  > > > > > > > getting something in the bargain, a stairway to heaven, perhaps!
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • prometheus_973
                  WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO THE MAHANTA CONSCIOUSNESS ??? PT Defined It and Klemp Eliminated This Definition! WHY? Twitchell defines Mahanta Consciousness in his
                  Message 8 of 15 , Oct 7, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO THE MAHANTA CONSCIOUSNESS ???
                    PT Defined It and Klemp Eliminated This Definition! WHY?

                    Twitchell defines "Mahanta Consciousness" in his ECKANKAR
                    Dictionary, but Klemp deletes this reference in the EK Lexicon.
                    Look at Klemp's Lexicon and all one can find is the definition
                    for the "Mahanta" 14th Initiate. I thought the Mahanta Con.
                    was supposed to be more impersonal and intangible.

                    PT: "Mahanta Consciousness - The spiritual leader,
                    or Godman; head of ECK;

                    [ME: Well! That's not impersonal or intangible either!
                    No wonder HK makes a distinction between the "full"
                    14th initiate LEM/Mahanta versus the 12th or 13th
                    (in training) Mahanta]

                    all those who come to him in the present age have been
                    with him since their advent into the world;

                    [ME: This must be true for DG's initiates too? Shame
                    on you Mr. Klemp for biting the hand that passed you
                    the "ROD!" Afterall, RT chose PT, and RT/PT/GT
                    chose DG, and DG (out of love) handed you the Rod!]

                    the body of the Mahanta is the ECK, which is the essence
                    of God flowing out from the Ocean of Love and Mercy,
                    sustaining all life and tying together all forms;

                    [ME: the definition for "spiritual hierarchy" lists the Mahanta
                    third and after the ECK. Besides, how can the ECK be limited
                    by a number like 14th Plane? Also, the "ANAMI LOK" is where
                    SUGMAD resides and it's the 10th Plane! (pg. 9, EK Lexicon).
                    How can the Mahanta be 14th Plane when Sugmad resides on
                    the 10th Plane?!]

                    the Vi-Guru, the Light Giver; a state of God Consciousness
                    which is beyond the titles given in religions which designate
                    states of consciousness; the highest of all states of consciousness."

                    [ME: Paul had to one-up Radhasoami ("Path of the Masters") and
                    Ruhani Satsang (Kirpal Singh) in order to be "Top Dog". Afterall,
                    you're not going to Buy or Invest in something if it's not the very
                    "Best" and "Fastest" are you?]

                    ******************************************************************

                    Yes, by now (after 25 years) there should be: 33,333 6th EK Initiates;
                    3,333 7ths; 333 8ths; 33 9ths! Klemp has fallen down on the job
                    and has focused upon building monuments to his ego!

                    Darwin may have been a big spender, but at least he wasn't
                    stingy with initiations, and neither was Paul!

                    So, there will probably be a big buzz at the up and coming
                    2007 EWWS (not to be confused with the EWS, or ECK Worship
                    Service).

                    ECKists will be talking... is this the Year for a Change in
                    Leadership... Finally!!! Will ECKists have a leader that won't
                    be a simpleton or a nerdy looking recluse and an embarrassment
                    to Vahanas?

                    When comparing HK to GW one has to admit that ANY CHANGE
                    would be for the better... even if HK remains as the "full" (FMOC)
                    master-on-campus!

                    Or, will Klemp disapoint Chelas once again with a new ploy
                    (delay tactic) and new distractions (buildings, books, etc.)?

                    Yes, ECKists will be "challenged" by the I-35 Bridge Collapse
                    and the Airlines reducing plane size and customers flying
                    into Minneapolis, but this just puts them into the same boat
                    as others... it's called life! Therefore this is not a "special"
                    event created by the Kal nor a special circumstance (test)
                    for ECKists alone! WAKE UP ECKIES AND LOOK AROUND AT
                    OTHER PEOPLE... THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS YOUR BELIEF!!!

                    Really, ECKists are vain and live in a bubble! Look around
                    and get out of your shells! Don't limit your thinking to ECK
                    Dogma and to EK religious belief that isolates you from life
                    experiences and having compassion and empathy of others.
                    You are no more "special" than any other Soul... and don't
                    think you're more "advanced" because someone has told
                    you so, or trained you to jump though hoops for initiations!

                    WAKE UP TO THE REAL TRUTH! YOU ARE SPIRITUALLY FREE NOW!

                    Prometheus








                    mish wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > LET'S DISCUSS KLEMP MORE! WHAT'S WRONG WITH
                    > HIM AND ALL HIS FOIBLES AS A SELF-PROCLAIMED
                    > GODMAN! IT IS NOT ALL ABOUT TWITCHELL!
                    >
                    > For me, actually, eckankar is just a man-made new
                    > age religion. Why and what Twitchell did in creating it
                    > can be debated until the cows come home. Everyone
                    > interested in this strange little known cult the least
                    > little bit takes one side or the other in the debate which
                    > basically comes down to how important or insignificant
                    > the plagiarisms and lies are to the eckankar teachings.
                    > Those who remain in eckankar have chosen to miminalize
                    > the fraud that has taken place and are quite confortable
                    > to remain in the delusion and illusion of the eck teachings.
                    > They support Klemp as he continues the lies and deceptions,
                    > keeping silent as he also molds eckankar to fit his
                    > narrow-minded, anti-social and narcissistic personality.
                    > Many eckists become like him which is not something one
                    > should really strive for! : )
                    >
                    > But to take this to a present day discussion, why do we not,
                    > meaning eckists and non-eckists alike debate the leadership
                    > of Klemp??? Klemp has been the mahanta/L.E.M. far longer
                    > than his predecessors, their years combined. It seems to me
                    > that we need to look long and hard at what Klemp has done
                    > and is doing since taking the reins of eckankar and shaping it
                    > into his creation. To me, what eckankar is today is greatly flawed
                    > by Klemp's shifty hands! He is no godman--how can anyone
                    > consider such a silly, nerdy looking and odd speaking man a
                    > god incarnate? Just looking at him and listening to his stupid
                    > talks makes the whole org look ridiculous!! He's a joke and
                    > there's nothing special or original about him! LOL!
                    >
                    > My guess is that many long time eckists are waiting, still
                    > waiting, for the winds of change to happen--when Klemp
                    > either steps down or is removed from his throne. I believe
                    > that many of the true eckists are just waiting for a power
                    > shift in leadership which they hope will then bring the outer
                    > org in line with what they are feeling/experiencing on their
                    > inner! They are hopeful that eckankar will become the
                    > religion they have longed for! : )
                    >
                    > Klemp must fear these patient chelas very much, and thus, he
                    > has slowed down the initiations in order to remain in control.
                    > It seems this is the true reason for being stingy about the
                    > initiations! Klemp is a stingy and fearful little old man--he
                    > is no guru or godman! So again I ask, why not discuss Klemp,
                    > and let Twitchell be for the most part? Let's get to the heart of
                    > the matter which is what Klemp is doing with eckankar! The
                    > continuing discussions about how eckankar began and how
                    > Twitchell established it, speculating on his motivations, etc.
                    > are all distractions from what needs to be analyzed today--
                    > that being Harold Klemp and what he has done to eckankar!
                    > My gut feeling is that Twitchell would not be happy with what
                    > Harold has done to his creation! LOL!
                    >
                    > BTW, I didn't leave eckankar because of David Lane's book-I
                    > haven't read it. I left because of Ford Johnson's "Confessions
                    > of a God Seeker." Many eckists left after becoming aware of
                    > Ford's book. No need to give Lane all the credit. Others have left
                    > because they saw through the veil of illusion--they knew
                    > something wasn't right in belonging to the eck cult and they
                    > hit the road on their own! There are many reasons and ways
                    > that one can wake up to the truth about eckankar . . . and get
                    > out! : )
                    >
                    > Mish
                    >
                    > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                    > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I was thinking about what Klemp said about Gross
                    > > holding onto the Rod of ECK Power beyond his time
                    > > and was, therefore, "burned" by it.
                    > >
                    > > If this is true that Gross should have passed the Rod
                    > > to Klemp in 1980 (or to someone else) can Eckists,
                    > > then, really blame Gross (for his actions) anymore than
                    > > they could blame Klemp for slowing their spiritual growth
                    > > (initiations)? What is more important for ECKists? Fiscal
                    > > Responsibility, Buildings, or Initiations? I was, mostly,
                    > > focused on spiritual growth... Initiations!
                    > >
                    > > Actually, Klemp has more blame by hanging onto
                    > > this Power way longer than any 20th Century LEM,
                    > > and for delaying and limiting initiations. There should
                    > > be at least 33 9ths, 333 8ths, and 3,333 7ths after
                    > > 25 years of "leadership." Sure, this would make the org
                    > > very "top heavy" but so what! It should be! Aren't Eckists
                    > > supposed to be the "cream of the crop?" Why then don't
                    > > the initiations reflect this? See, this is just one of
                    > > many reasons why the long-time Eckists want to see
                    > > Klemp step down.
                    > >
                    > > HK restructured the org and moved the headquarters
                    > > in order to have Total Control over the EK Board of
                    > > Trustees. The RESA structure is the extended arm of
                    > > this control.
                    > >
                    > > What were viewed as inappropiate actions by Gross
                    > > were really just the "effects" of hanging onto the Rod
                    > > beyond his time. DG's rationale and thinking was off
                    > > balance and askewed. Consideration and understanding
                    > > are still lacking for this phenomonia of holding onto
                    > > the "Rod" beyond the time the LEM should. Klemp is
                    > > still holding a grudge!
                    > >
                    > > Even today, the RESA police spy on Eckists with informers
                    > > as they ferret out those who are Not supposed to even
                    > > speak Darwin's name! And, let's face it, there will never
                    > > be discussions of the "positive" elements concerning those
                    > > 10 lost years of EK History. This is extremely strange since
                    > > most Higher Initiates (6-14) have most of their initiations
                    > > from those 10 years under Gross!
                    > >
                    > > Klemp's chelas, from Oct. 22, 1981, are mostly 4ths and
                    > > 5ths! Let's face it, according to EK Dogma Chelas, H.I.s
                    > > are Not Established on the SOUL PLANE "until" they have
                    > > become 6ths!
                    > >
                    > > This 6th initiation is the "proof" that they have completed
                    > > all of the trials and tests for the 5th initiation. I wonder
                    > > if this was always the case? Or, did Klemp redefine this
                    > > dogma (with these restrictions) "after" he slowed the
                    > > initiations down?
                    > >
                    > > Therefore, Klemp might want to hold onto his MAHANTA
                    > > position, until, he can get the majority of "his" Chelas to
                    > > the 6th initiation. Maybe this is why he slowed initiations
                    > > down in the first place? Maybe it was used as a ploy, along
                    > > with building structures, to insure that he would need to
                    > > be the LEM and/or Mahanta for 25-30 years or longer!
                    > >
                    > > Yes, Klemp is very selfish and has done ECK Chelas an
                    > > even greater injustice than Gross ever did. Klemp's focus
                    > > has been on the tangible instead of the intangible.
                    > >
                    > > Prometheus
                  • prometheus_973
                    Wll Don Ginn, or Joan be the new President of the Org? Will Peter Skelsky become the new LEM? Or, will Don be the new LEM? Can Joan, still, be moved in as the
                    Message 9 of 15 , Oct 15, 2007
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                      Wll Don Ginn, or Joan be the new President of the Org?
                      Will Peter Skelsky become the new LEM? Or, will Don be
                      the new LEM? Can Joan, still, be moved in as the Co-LEM
                      without problems? After 25 years it seems like Klemp still
                      has a death-grip on the Rod of (EK) Power! Although, the
                      ROD has "Burned" Klemp for a decade or more, and has
                      affected his health, he has refused to let it go!

                      Of course, in any scenario, Klemp won't give up the Top
                      Dog spot as "FULL" Mahanta [Chief God over the copyrighted
                      materials (words) and property of the Eckankar Corp. in the
                      Lower Planes of KAL]!

                      HK's Lust for Fame and Power has distorted his Soul on every
                      level. The ROD has become Klemp's personal "precious"
                      possession, and should have been LET GO of years ago!

                      When will ECKists see the Truth... that only the weak, fearful,
                      and inexperienced Souls need Masters and Religion, and
                      that those EK initiations are just security blankets and
                      carrots to feed the ego! Soul is its own Master and needs
                      to be Free of Religious Dogma and Group Think!

                      Prometheus



                      Prometheus wrote:
                      >
                      I was thinking about what Klemp said about Gross
                      holding onto the Rod of ECK Power beyond his time
                      and was, therefore, "burned" by it.
                      >
                      If this is true that Gross should have passed the Rod
                      to Klemp in 1980 (or to someone else) can Eckists,
                      then, really blame Gross (for his actions) anymore than
                      they could blame Klemp for slowing their spiritual growth
                      (initiations)? What is more important for ECKists? Fiscal
                      Responsibility, Buildings, or Initiations? I was, mostly,
                      focused on spiritual growth... Initiations!
                      >
                      Actually, Klemp has more blame by hanging onto
                      this Power way longer than any 20th Century LEM,
                      and for delaying and limiting initiations. There should
                      be at least 33 9ths, 333 8ths, and 3,333 7ths after
                      25 years of "leadership." Sure, this would make the org
                      very "top heavy" but so what! It should be! Aren't Eckists
                      supposed to be the "cream of the crop?" Why then don't
                      the initiations reflect this? See, this is just one of
                      many reasons why the long-time Eckists want to see
                      Klemp step down.
                      >
                      HK restructured the org and moved the headquarters
                      in order to have Total Control over the EK Board of
                      Trustees. The RESA structure is the extended arm of
                      this control.
                      >
                      What were viewed as inappropiate actions by Gross
                      were really just the "effects" of hanging onto the Rod
                      beyond his time. DG's rationale and thinking was off
                      balance and askewed. Consideration and understanding
                      are still lacking for this phenomonia of holding onto
                      the "Rod" beyond the time the LEM should. Klemp is
                      still holding a grudge!
                      >
                      Even today, the RESA police spy on Eckists with informers
                      as they ferret out those who are Not supposed to even
                      speak Darwin's name! And, let's face it, there will never
                      be discussions of the "positive" elements concerning those
                      10 lost years of EK History. This is extremely strange since
                      most Higher Initiates (6-14) have most of their initiations
                      from those 10 years under Gross!
                      >
                      Klemp's chelas, from Oct. 22, 1981, are mostly 4ths and
                      5ths! Let's face it, according to EK Dogma Chelas, H.I.s
                      are Not Established on the SOUL PLANE "until" they have
                      become 6ths!
                      >
                      This 6th initiation is the "proof" that they have completed
                      all of the trails and tests for the 5th initiation. I wonder
                      if this was always the case? Or, did Klemp redefine this
                      dogma (with these restrictions) "after" he slowed the
                      initiations down?
                      >
                      Therefore, Klemp might want to hold onto his MAHANTA
                      position, until, he can get the majority of "his" Chelas to
                      the 6th initiation. Maybe this is why he slowed initiations
                      down in the first place? Maybe it was used as a ploy, along
                      with building structures, to insure that he would need to
                      be the LEM and/or Mahanta for 25-30 years or longer!
                      >
                      Yes, Klemp is very selfish and has done ECK Chelas an
                      even greater injustice than Gross ever did. Klemp's focus
                      has been on the tangible instead of the intangible.
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                      >
                      > ***
                      > Prometheus wrote:
                      > >
                      Hi Mish,
                      I just read your post. Good one! Yes, it does seem
                      like Klemp is taking an awfully long time to "train"
                      a replacement. HK's "Wonderful" book has
                      a 2005 copyright and he states it will take him
                      "several" more years to train someone! A "few"
                      means 3-4 right? Therefore, "several" would be
                      4-5 or more right? Or, is Klemp incompetent at
                      counting as well? If Klemp is being honest and
                      is not trying to blind-side his chelas it would seem
                      that his replacement won't be ready until, at least,
                      Oct. 22, 2009. However, ECKists must always keep
                      in mind the Catch-22 rule!
                      > >
                      However, has Klemp ever really been open, honest,
                      or clear about anything? Hmmmmm. The closest
                      he came to this was when he had to admit (because
                      of it being Public Record) that he was locked-up in
                      a mental institution. However, Klemp then put his
                      Damage Control Spin on this incident (lemons into
                      lemonade?) as he typically blamed or found fault with
                      everyone at the mental health facility except himself.
                      Re-read it for yourself and see! Klemp has never taken
                      Responsibility for his harsh words, judgments, or negative
                      actions and reactions toward others nor has he, ever,
                      shown any Empathy, tolerance, or compassion. These
                      are virtures and indicators of a higher Love.
                      > >
                      I challenge ECKists to point out where, in HK's vast
                      writings, he has Ever Admitted to having made a Mistake,
                      or of Showning Empathy toward others... especially
                      to non-ECKists! One can rationalize that it is showing
                      "tough love" when involving chelas, but how about
                      with others? And No, it's Not Detachment either! It's
                      the Catch-22 Mahanta Consciousness Ploy of Denial.
                      ECKists are stupid and delusional and in denial to believe
                      that everything they are told is true... except when they
                      validate it via Imagination and with the use of a "charged
                      word!" LOL! As Below So Above and Vice-Versa?!
                      > >
                      Yes, HK is always pointing the finger and blaming others.
                      Klemp went to the 1971 ECK Worldwide instead of to his
                      own father's funeral to be with his mother, brothers, and
                      sister. Then, HK makes excuses for this insensitive and
                      narcissistic behaviour by quoting Jesus, in his year 2000
                      "Autobiography," while Talking About having Love for God.
                      Then Klemp tells ECKists that they must have a "Loving Heart"
                      and be an example for others. What a hypocrite!
                      > >
                      BTW- Here's what Klemp had to say on Eckankar.org about
                      "when" Twitchell first met Rebazar.
                      > >
                      "Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951 in the foothills of the
                      Himalayas near Darjeeling." [Hmmmm. This Darjee(ling) sounds
                      like Darji]
                      > >
                      http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html
                      > >
                      Therefore, if you believe this crap, Rebazar had from
                      1951-1965 to "train" Twitchell for the LEM position.
                      > >
                      Rebazar, during a time when the World's Consciousness
                      was lower, took 14 years to "train" Twitchell.
                      > >
                      Then, Twitchell had from 1965-1971 to "train" Gross. This
                      is only 6 years. Maybe it took "less" time to train Darwin
                      because the World's Consciousness, even due to wars, etc.,
                      has expanded even more.
                      > >
                      Gross, then, took 10 years to "train" Klemp. Actually,
                      Gross was going to hand the Rod to Klemp in 1980 after
                      9 years, but took an extra year to finish Klemp's "training."
                      > >
                      Here's the score on passing the Rod:
                      > >
                      RT-PT=14 years
                      PT-DG=6 years
                      DG-HK=10 years
                      HK-??=25 years
                      > >
                      Does it look like Klemp has, maybe, held onto his Power
                      over these EK chelas Way Too Long?
                      > >
                      [BTW-HK's chelas are those First initiated After Oct. 22, 1981.]
                      > >
                      It looks like HK (the most advanced Mahanta ever, he claims)
                      Should Not have taken more than 15 years to "train" someone,
                      and that's giving him a lot of "wiggle" room.
                      > >
                      > > Prometheus


                      mish wrote:
                      > > >
                      Hi, All!
                      > > >
                      What Prometheus wrote here reminded me of something
                      Klemp wrote in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters." Prometheus
                      wrote:
                      > > >
                      "Isn't it interesting that Klemp, at the 1983 H.I. Meeting,
                      said that he would be the LEM/Mahanta for 10 to 20
                      years in order to complete his mission. And, HK boasted
                      that unlike Darwin he would Let Go of the Rod of ECK
                      Power before it burned him and affected his health.
                      > > >
                      <snipped>
                      > > >
                      Anyway, Klemp has held onto the Rod of ECK Power
                      with a death grip, and has gone way beyond the 20
                      years promised to complete his mission (of building
                      structures)."
                      > > >
                      On pages 235-236, in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters,"
                      Klemp answered in a chela's dream "the length of his
                      service as the Living ECK Master. How long would he
                      serve in that position? Were there others in training?"
                      > > >
                      Klemp wrote, "The Master assured her that a few
                      initiates were indeed in training for leadership in ECK,
                      but no one was ready yet to assume the responsibility.
                      It might take several years or many more for the first
                      one to complete all the tests. Accordingly, the Master
                      would continue for another cycle as the Mahanta, the
                      Living ECK Master. . . . "
                      > > >
                      Doesn't sound like Klemp is ready to step down yet,
                      and that is why I believe after reading what Klemp wrote
                      about Joan in his book, that he was setting the stage
                      for her elevating to a position of great assistence to
                      the godman! I would think that Don Ginn, Peter Skelsky,
                      and the other hopeful "candidates" waiting in the wings
                      for their chance to grasp the rod of eck power would
                      be discouraged after reading Klemp's book. I agree
                      that Klemp seems to have a death grip on his power--
                      he just can't and won't let go of it! : )
                      > > >
                      Mish
                      > > >
                      p.s. Remember that Don Ginn and Peter Skelsky were
                      both on the Board of Trustees and helped Klemp to
                      boot Darwin. These guys were at least 7th initiates
                      25 years ago, so how embarrassing it must be to them that
                      it is taking so long for the godman Klemp to train them!
                      Either they are slow learners or Klemp is, as we know,
                      incompetent and a fraud--Klemp has none of the powers he
                      claims! Well, stupidity does abound in eckankar for sure!
                      > > >
                      > > > ################################
                      > > >
                      prometheus wrote:
                      > > > >
                      Hi Mish,
                      Excellent post! On the other hand... the more I think
                      about it... perhaps Don will take the place of Peter
                      Skelsky and Peter will become the next LEM.
                      > > > >
                      Isn't it interesting that Klemp, at the 1983 H.I. Meeting,
                      said that he would be the LEM/Mahanta for 10 to 20
                      years in order to complete his mission. And, HK boasted
                      that unlike Darwin he would Let Go of the Rod of ECK
                      Power before it burned him and affected his health.
                      > > > >
                      Actually, I didn't see where the "Rod" had "burned" DG
                      and, therefore, supposedly affected his health. HK and
                      the Board of Trustees are the ones that burned DG!
                      > > > >
                      Anyway, Klemp has held onto the Rod of ECK Power
                      with a death grip, and has gone way beyond the 20
                      years promised to complete his mission (of building
                      structures).
                      > > > >
                      What should have been Klemp's mission? Isn't the real
                      mission of a Mahanta: To take MORE Souls into the HIGHEST
                      Planes of the Sugmad; To do this more directly or FASTER
                      than any other religion or spiritual path could; To set
                      Souls FREE, thus, they too become MASTERS?!
                      > > > >
                      Instead, Klemp slowed Initiations down, and told ECKists
                      that he would! Why did he Not Speed these up at some
                      point? Look at the long-time 7th initiates that have been
                      7ths... for 20 plus years! What's with that? Why aren't
                      there more 8ths? I know that there are 9ths... including
                      Joan! Why the Glass Ceiling for long-time 7ths and former
                      RESAs? What does Klemp fear, or is this another effect
                      from Not having Let Go (of the Rod) when he should have?!
                      > > > >
                      Yes, Klemp was burned a long time ago when one looks
                      at his EMR problems beginning around 1990. Look at
                      his health problems of the last few years! So, I guess
                      his reasoning is, still, that his replacement wasn't ready.
                      Is that the way things are supposed to work in Eckankar?
                      > > > >
                      A replacement is ready when the need arises just like
                      when the chela is ready the Master will appear. Klemp
                      can tell chelas anything at anytime and chelas will accept
                      it because if they can't then something must be wrong
                      with them. The possibility can never exist that something
                      is wrong with Klemp or that he is lying. Yet, didn't HK
                      say that Twitchell 'twisted facts?' And, Marman said that
                      Twitchell used half-truths while Rich (another ECKist)
                      claims that PT plagarized 7% of his works! Didn't DG
                      "fall" from Grace? It's obvious that Klemp had fallen long
                      ago... circa 1990 perhaps?! The truth does have a bite
                      to it at times and this is why people will deny it for as
                      long as they can. This is why HK wants ECKists to "imagine"
                      that everything is fine with his leadership. The mind is
                      very powerful... just look at what it can do when under
                      a concentrated focus... like with hypnosis.
                      > > > >
                      So why do ECKists believe Klemp's version of truth? it's
                      because they fear the real truth that he's a fraud. What
                      else do they have to believe in? Eckankar is their life...
                      their crutch... they think. But there is much more! And
                      one can only discover this when they have Let Go...
                      Break the Chains and stand in a clear new light as a free
                      Soul.
                      > > > >
                      However, and on the other hand, after the fiasco with
                      Darwin one would think that ECKists could handle the
                      truth. And, wouldn't Klemp want to show the finances
                      to the General Membership in an Annual Report. That
                      doesn't happen though does it! Instead, Klemp puts the
                      fear of asking questions into chelas because questioning
                      his authority on anything will cause a chela to be held back
                      on Initiations. Never complain in your IRO or HIRO because
                      it will be put into your file at the ESC. "Good" ECKists must
                      always practice the "Law of Silence" and "Surrender" their
                      ability to think.
                      > > > >
                      So what's all this mean? It means that most ECKists
                      really want to see a change in leadership, but can't say
                      so. Klemp hasn't done anything except to create more
                      structures and write a ton of worthless books. Why are
                      these books worthless? Because the "spiritual" message
                      is way too simple, of lower consciousness, and is redundant
                      because one can find similar books everywhere and by
                      other secular or religious writers. Besides, these books
                      of Klemp's are only directed to the uninitiated public or
                      to the vast number of simple-minded chelas that don't
                      "Get It." These are Klemp's other Money Makers because
                      he gets 50% of the royalities!
                      > > > >
                      ECKists have been duped for a long time and for 25
                      years by Klemp! Even this narcissist knows that it has
                      to end soon. But why travel to Minneapolis to see the
                      new LEM when you've seen them before and will see and
                      hear from them more in the future? And, if you're a
                      True Blue ECKist, of higher consciousness, you should be
                      able to project yourself there, or see it on the Inner. Right!
                      > > > >
                      Prometheus
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      Mish wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      Hi, Everyone!
                      > > > > >
                      When I read Klemp's book "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," I
                      saw this book as a tool Klemp had created to elevate Joan
                      to an eck master, and I still believe that was one of the basic
                      purposes of the book. Klemp thinks he can cleverly insert subtle
                      ideas that when the reader goes back later, can say, oh, yes,
                      it's in there--how could one miss it! LOL! So, it is in "Those
                      Wonderful ECK Masters" that Joan appears in some chelas
                      dreams doing what eck masters are supposed to do, helping
                      chelas to find the mahanta! Also, in the chapter on Kata Daki,
                      Klemp explains how more female eck masters are coming out
                      to be known--he states it is now time! Again, it is time for
                      Joan to be an eck master. . . . Anyway, this is what I saw in
                      the book and I still believe that was Klemp's primary motivation
                      to write the book when he did. I also believe that Klemp was
                      planning to announce some changes in the leadership of
                      eckankar, positioning Joan in a bigger role of power so that
                      she could "officially" assist him in his declining years as
                      master of the universe. Now, I don't have those feelings of
                      a big announcement in that regard coming out publicly to
                      the chelas soon, if ever! I guess the chelas will have to get it
                      on the inner! LOL!
                      > > > > >
                      Seriously, though, positioning Joan in such a way before the
                      chelas would at the very least give her some clout if Klemp
                      became disabled or dead. I'm sure Klemp is recalling
                      what happened when PT suddenly died and how Gail then
                      selected the next L.E.M. mahanta in a dream and then later
                      married him! Hey, is Don Ginn married??? : )
                      > > > > >
                      There are big changes coming in the hierarchial structure
                      of the eckankar org--but not sure when it will be announced.
                      Maybe Klemp has decided not to appear so frail for the time
                      being as he continues his scheming to remain where he is
                      in the seat of eck power as long as he can! He's changed his
                      course a little bit for now, so I foresee a very boring up-coming
                      EWWS! It will be pretty much the same old eckancrap!
                      > > > > >
                      Chelas, I advise that you save your time and money by staying
                      home . . . or if you're truly in the mood to travel, go some
                      place fun and warm for a change! : )
                      > > > > >
                      Mish
                      > > > > >
                      prometheus_wrote:
                      > > > > > >
                      Hi All,
                      Yes, it seems that Don might be the next LEM while
                      Klemp remains the "full" Mahanta. Of course there is,
                      still, the possibility that Joan is made the Co-LEM
                      (since a female could only share this position, due to
                      "their" negative atoms).
                      > > > > > >
                      As a "junior" and/or Co-LEM (under the guidance &
                      supervision of the "full" LEM/Mahanta) Joan could take
                      > > > > > > over, even more, duties for her husband at the ESC.
                      > > > > > >
                      Or, Don can be given these duties as a "junior" LEM while
                      Joan continues her role at the ESC while spying on Don for HK!
                      > > > > > >
                      Anyway, it's a win/win for them right!
                      > > > > > >
                      I wonder... Would Joan be able to take orders from Don,
                      or will she, only, be obeying the Living ECK... Mahanta
                      like Marge?

                      Prometheus
                    • prometheus_973
                      IMO-The KAL always wants ECKists to attend the ECK Seminars in order to waste their hard earned Vahana money on travel and hotel expenses versus attending on
                      Message 10 of 15 , Oct 16, 2007
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                        IMO-The KAL always wants ECKists to attend the
                        ECK Seminars in order to waste their hard earned
                        Vahana money on travel and hotel expenses versus
                        attending on the "Inner."

                        Isn't this "inner connection" via Soul Travel the
                        "special" attribute that makes Eckankar and ECKists
                        different from others and more "spiritually advanced"
                        from the other religious herds? So, WHY is it necessary
                        to attend on the outer and make a pilgrimage to the
                        Temple on the physical versus the higher inner planes,
                        especially, for H.I.s?

                        WHY is it necessary for H.I.s to even "write" a Monthly
                        Initiate Report (IRO/HIRO) IF there is Always/Constantly
                        an "inner" communication taking place? WHY do ECK
                        H.I.s need this "lower" physical act to demonstrate
                        discipline, and to communicate with their 14th initiate
                        leader?

                        WHY is Klemp attached to Astral Plane emotions,
                        and Physical Plane limitations? Afterall, ECKists not
                        only have to go through metal detectors for Klemp's
                        Saturday night talk (due to his fears), but they have
                        to get their inspiration from outer talks and words
                        just as other religious followers do!

                        So what is it that makes Eckankar "better" than other
                        religions? The proof is in the pudding! Just look at these
                        ECK H.I.s! Or, better yet, just talk to and listen to them!
                        Anyone can memorize an ECK brochure, but what do they
                        really say and how do they really behave away from the
                        seminar? They're no different from anyone else (for good
                        or bad) regardless of initiation level. WHY? Because the
                        EK initiations, except for what's printed on paper, don't
                        exist in reality. Only the imagination can fulfill the hopes
                        and dreams of those who believe. This is WHY and HOW
                        religions work for the masses... including ECKists!

                        Prometheus




                        mish wrote:


                        LET'S DISCUSS KLEMP MORE! WHAT'S WRONG WITH
                        HIM AND ALL HIS FOIBLES AS A SELF-PROCLAIMED
                        GODMAN! IT IS NOT ALL ABOUT TWITCHELL!

                        For me, actually, eckankar is just a man-made new
                        age religion. Why and what Twitchell did in creating it
                        can be debated until the cows come home. Everyone
                        interested in this strange little known cult the least
                        little bit takes one side or the other in the debate which
                        basically comes down to how important or insignificant
                        the plagiarisms and lies are to the eckankar teachings.

                        Those who remain in eckankar have chosen to miminalize
                        the fraud that has taken place and are quite confortable
                        to remain in the delusion and illusion of the eck teachings.
                        They support Klemp as he continues the lies and deceptions,
                        keeping silent as he also molds eckankar to fit his
                        narrow-minded, anti-social and narcissistic personality.
                        Many eckists become like him which is not something one
                        should really strive for! : )

                        But to take this to a present day discussion, why do we not,
                        meaning eckists and non-eckists alike debate the leadership
                        of Klemp??? Klemp has been the mahanta/L.E.M. far longer
                        than his predecessors, their years combined. It seems to me
                        that we need to look long and hard at what Klemp has done
                        and is doing since taking the reins of eckankar and shaping it
                        into his creation. To me, what eckankar is today is greatly flawed
                        by Klemp's shifty hands! He is no godman--how can anyone
                        consider such a silly, nerdy looking and odd speaking man a
                        god incarnate? Just looking at him and listening to his stupid
                        talks makes the whole org look ridiculous!! He's a joke and
                        there's nothing special or original about him! LOL!

                        My guess is that many long time eckists are waiting, still
                        waiting, for the winds of change to happen--when Klemp
                        either steps down or is removed from his throne. I believe
                        that many of the true eckists are just waiting for a power
                        shift in leadership which they hope will then bring the outer
                        org in line with what they are feeling/experiencing on their
                        inner! They are hopeful that eckankar will become the
                        religion they have longed for! : )

                        Klemp must fear these patient chelas very much, and thus, he
                        has slowed down the initiations in order to remain in control.
                        It seems this is the true reason for being stingy about the
                        initiations! Klemp is a stingy and fearful little old man--he
                        is no guru or godman! So again I ask, why not discuss Klemp,
                        and let Twitchell be for the most part? Let's get to the heart of
                        the matter which is what Klemp is doing with eckankar! The
                        continuing discussions about how eckankar began and how
                        Twitchell established it, speculating on his motivations, etc.
                        are all distractions from what needs to be analyzed today--
                        that being Harold Klemp and what he has done to eckankar!
                        My gut feeling is that Twitchell would not be happy with what
                        Harold has done to his creation! LOL!

                        BTW, I didn't leave eckankar because of David Lane's book-I
                        haven't read it. I left because of Ford Johnson's "Confessions
                        of a God Seeker." Many eckists left after becoming aware of
                        Ford's book. No need to give Lane all the credit. Others have left
                        because they saw through the veil of illusion--they knew
                        something wasn't right in belonging to the eck cult and they
                        hit the road on their own! There are many reasons and ways
                        that one can wake up to the truth about eckankar . . . and get
                        out! : )

                        Mish
                      • prometheus_973
                        Does Doug Kunin have a chance at becoming the next LEM? I ve heard that some ESC staffers would like to see someone younger than Don Ginn or Peter Skelsky take
                        Message 11 of 15 , Oct 17, 2007
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                          Does Doug Kunin have a chance at becoming the next LEM?
                          I've heard that some ESC staffers would like to see someone
                          younger than Don Ginn or Peter Skelsky take over as Top Dog.
                          However, many of the female staffers would like to see Joan
                          become the LEM or even Co-LEM! Basically, any action or change
                          by Klemp will be seen as positive. However, IF Joan was
                          made LEM or Co-LEM this could (possibly) open the door
                          for FEMALES to become "FULL" MAHANTAS too!

                          The Mahanta can change the old ECK Dogma/rule via Catch-22!
                          According to PT's explanation Males have "atoms" that are
                          Positive and Females have "atoms" that are Negative and this
                          factor is WHY Female ECKists Cannot be a LEM in these Negative
                          Worlds of KAL.

                          Don't Two Negatives = a Positive?

                          Negative Female Atoms existing in the Lower Negative Worlds
                          of KAL would seem to have a Positive Effect! Maybe this is WHY
                          there are so many wars and so much Negativity! The Male "Positive"
                          Atoms are in opposition with the "Negative" Worlds of KAL.

                          Therefore, PT and the rest of the Male political & religious leaders
                          got it wrong! I wonder... WHY didn't they see this before? Maybe
                          they don't want to Let Go of their power over females? It does
                          make it convenient for any group... to automatically have control
                          over Half of the population!



                          Prometheus




                          Prometheus wrote:
                          >
                          > WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO THE MAHANTA CONSCIOUSNESS ???
                          > PT Defined It and Klemp Eliminated This Definition! WHY?
                          >
                          > Twitchell defines "Mahanta Consciousness" in his ECKANKAR
                          > Dictionary, but Klemp deletes this reference in the EK Lexicon.
                          > Look at Klemp's Lexicon and all one can find is the definition
                          > for the "Mahanta" 14th Initiate. I thought the Mahanta Con.
                          > was supposed to be more impersonal and intangible.
                          >
                          > PT: "Mahanta Consciousness - The spiritual leader,
                          > or Godman; head of ECK;
                          >
                          > [ME: Well! That's not impersonal or intangible either!
                          > No wonder HK makes a distinction between the "full"
                          > 14th initiate LEM/Mahanta versus the 12th or 13th
                          > (in training) Mahanta]
                          >
                          > all those who come to him in the present age have been
                          > with him since their advent into the world;
                          >
                          > [ME: This must be true for DG's initiates too? Shame
                          > on you Mr. Klemp for biting the hand that passed you
                          > the "ROD!" Afterall, RT chose PT, and RT/PT/GT
                          > chose DG, and DG (out of love) handed you the Rod!]
                          >
                          > the body of the Mahanta is the ECK, which is the essence
                          > of God flowing out from the Ocean of Love and Mercy,
                          > sustaining all life and tying together all forms;
                          >
                          > [ME: the definition for "spiritual hierarchy" lists the Mahanta
                          > third and after the ECK. Besides, how can the ECK be limited
                          > by a number like 14th Plane? Also, the "ANAMI LOK" is where
                          > SUGMAD resides and it's the 10th Plane! (pg. 9, EK Lexicon).
                          > How can the Mahanta be 14th Plane when Sugmad resides on
                          > the 10th Plane?!]
                          >
                          > the Vi-Guru, the Light Giver; a state of God Consciousness
                          > which is beyond the titles given in religions which designate
                          > states of consciousness; the highest of all states of consciousness."
                          >
                          > [ME: Paul had to one-up Radhasoami ("Path of the Masters") and
                          > Ruhani Satsang (Kirpal Singh) in order to be "Top Dog". Afterall,
                          > you're not going to Buy or Invest in something if it's not the very
                          > "Best" and "Fastest" are you?]
                          >
                          > ******************************************************************
                          >
                          > Yes, by now (after 25 years) there should be: 33,333 6th EK Initiates;
                          > 3,333 7ths; 333 8ths; 33 9ths! Klemp has fallen down on the job
                          > and has focused upon building monuments to his ego!
                          >
                          > Darwin may have been a big spender, but at least he wasn't
                          > stingy with initiations, and neither was Paul!
                          >
                          > So, there will probably be a big buzz at the up and coming
                          > 2007 EWWS (not to be confused with the EWS, or ECK Worship
                          > Service).
                          >
                          > ECKists will be talking... is this the Year for a Change in
                          > Leadership... Finally!!! Will ECKists have a leader that won't
                          > be a simpleton or a nerdy looking recluse and an embarrassment
                          > to Vahanas?
                          >
                          > When comparing HK to GW one has to admit that ANY CHANGE
                          > would be for the better... even if HK remains as the "full" (FMOC)
                          > master-on-campus!
                          >
                          > Or, will Klemp disapoint Chelas once again with a new ploy
                          > (delay tactic) and new distractions (buildings, books, etc.)?
                          >
                          > Yes, ECKists will be "challenged" by the I-35 Bridge Collapse
                          > and the Airlines reducing plane size and customers flying
                          > into Minneapolis, but this just puts them into the same boat
                          > as others... it's called life! Therefore this is not a "special"
                          > event created by the Kal nor a special circumstance (test)
                          > for ECKists alone! WAKE UP ECKIES AND LOOK AROUND AT
                          > OTHER PEOPLE... THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS YOUR BELIEF!!!
                          >
                          > Really, ECKists are vain and live in a bubble! Look around
                          > and get out of your shells! Don't limit your thinking to ECK
                          > Dogma and to EK religious belief that isolates you from life
                          > experiences and having compassion and empathy of others.
                          > You are no more "special" than any other Soul... and don't
                          > think you're more "advanced" because someone has told
                          > you so, or trained you to jump though hoops for initiations!
                          >
                          > WAKE UP TO THE REAL TRUTH! YOU ARE SPIRITUALLY FREE NOW!
                          >
                          > Prometheus
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > mish wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > LET'S DISCUSS KLEMP MORE! WHAT'S WRONG WITH
                          > > HIM AND ALL HIS FOIBLES AS A SELF-PROCLAIMED
                          > > GODMAN! IT IS NOT ALL ABOUT TWITCHELL!
                          > >
                          > > For me, actually, eckankar is just a man-made new
                          > > age religion. Why and what Twitchell did in creating it
                          > > can be debated until the cows come home. Everyone
                          > > interested in this strange little known cult the least
                          > > little bit takes one side or the other in the debate which
                          > > basically comes down to how important or insignificant
                          > > the plagiarisms and lies are to the eckankar teachings.
                          > > Those who remain in eckankar have chosen to miminalize
                          > > the fraud that has taken place and are quite confortable
                          > > to remain in the delusion and illusion of the eck teachings.
                          > > They support Klemp as he continues the lies and deceptions,
                          > > keeping silent as he also molds eckankar to fit his
                          > > narrow-minded, anti-social and narcissistic personality.
                          > > Many eckists become like him which is not something one
                          > > should really strive for! : )
                          > >
                          > > But to take this to a present day discussion, why do we not,
                          > > meaning eckists and non-eckists alike debate the leadership
                          > > of Klemp??? Klemp has been the mahanta/L.E.M. far longer
                          > > than his predecessors, their years combined. It seems to me
                          > > that we need to look long and hard at what Klemp has done
                          > > and is doing since taking the reins of eckankar and shaping it
                          > > into his creation. To me, what eckankar is today is greatly flawed
                          > > by Klemp's shifty hands! He is no godman--how can anyone
                          > > consider such a silly, nerdy looking and odd speaking man a
                          > > god incarnate? Just looking at him and listening to his stupid
                          > > talks makes the whole org look ridiculous!! He's a joke and
                          > > there's nothing special or original about him! LOL!
                          > >
                          > > My guess is that many long time eckists are waiting, still
                          > > waiting, for the winds of change to happen--when Klemp
                          > > either steps down or is removed from his throne. I believe
                          > > that many of the true eckists are just waiting for a power
                          > > shift in leadership which they hope will then bring the outer
                          > > org in line with what they are feeling/experiencing on their
                          > > inner! They are hopeful that eckankar will become the
                          > > religion they have longed for! : )
                          > >
                          > > Klemp must fear these patient chelas very much, and thus, he
                          > > has slowed down the initiations in order to remain in control.
                          > > It seems this is the true reason for being stingy about the
                          > > initiations! Klemp is a stingy and fearful little old man--he
                          > > is no guru or godman! So again I ask, why not discuss Klemp,
                          > > and let Twitchell be for the most part? Let's get to the heart of
                          > > the matter which is what Klemp is doing with eckankar! The
                          > > continuing discussions about how eckankar began and how
                          > > Twitchell established it, speculating on his motivations, etc.
                          > > are all distractions from what needs to be analyzed today--
                          > > that being Harold Klemp and what he has done to eckankar!
                          > > My gut feeling is that Twitchell would not be happy with what
                          > > Harold has done to his creation! LOL!
                          > >
                          > > BTW, I didn't leave eckankar because of David Lane's book-I
                          > > haven't read it. I left because of Ford Johnson's "Confessions
                          > > of a God Seeker." Many eckists left after becoming aware of
                          > > Ford's book. No need to give Lane all the credit. Others have left
                          > > because they saw through the veil of illusion--they knew
                          > > something wasn't right in belonging to the eck cult and they
                          > > hit the road on their own! There are many reasons and ways
                          > > that one can wake up to the truth about eckankar . . . and get
                          > > out! : )
                          > >
                          > > Mish
                          > >
                          > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                          > > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > I was thinking about what Klemp said about Gross
                          > > > holding onto the Rod of ECK Power beyond his time
                          > > > and was, therefore, "burned" by it.
                          > > >
                          > > > If this is true that Gross should have passed the Rod
                          > > > to Klemp in 1980 (or to someone else) can Eckists,
                          > > > then, really blame Gross (for his actions) anymore than
                          > > > they could blame Klemp for slowing their spiritual growth
                          > > > (initiations)? What is more important for ECKists? Fiscal
                          > > > Responsibility, Buildings, or Initiations? I was, mostly,
                          > > > focused on spiritual growth... Initiations!
                          > > >
                          > > > Actually, Klemp has more blame by hanging onto
                          > > > this Power way longer than any 20th Century LEM,
                          > > > and for delaying and limiting initiations. There should
                          > > > be at least 33 9ths, 333 8ths, and 3,333 7ths after
                          > > > 25 years of "leadership." Sure, this would make the org
                          > > > very "top heavy" but so what! It should be! Aren't Eckists
                          > > > supposed to be the "cream of the crop?" Why then don't
                          > > > the initiations reflect this? See, this is just one of
                          > > > many reasons why the long-time Eckists want to see
                          > > > Klemp step down.
                          > > >
                          > > > HK restructured the org and moved the headquarters
                          > > > in order to have Total Control over the EK Board of
                          > > > Trustees. The RESA structure is the extended arm of
                          > > > this control.
                          > > >
                          > > > What were viewed as inappropiate actions by Gross
                          > > > were really just the "effects" of hanging onto the Rod
                          > > > beyond his time. DG's rationale and thinking was off
                          > > > balance and askewed. Consideration and understanding
                          > > > are still lacking for this phenomonia of holding onto
                          > > > the "Rod" beyond the time the LEM should. Klemp is
                          > > > still holding a grudge!
                          > > >
                          > > > Even today, the RESA police spy on Eckists with informers
                          > > > as they ferret out those who are Not supposed to even
                          > > > speak Darwin's name! And, let's face it, there will never
                          > > > be discussions of the "positive" elements concerning those
                          > > > 10 lost years of EK History. This is extremely strange since
                          > > > most Higher Initiates (6-14) have most of their initiations
                          > > > from those 10 years under Gross!
                          > > >
                          > > > Klemp's chelas, from Oct. 22, 1981, are mostly 4ths and
                          > > > 5ths! Let's face it, according to EK Dogma Chelas, H.I.s
                          > > > are Not Established on the SOUL PLANE "until" they have
                          > > > become 6ths!
                          > > >
                          > > > This 6th initiation is the "proof" that they have completed
                          > > > all of the trials and tests for the 5th initiation. I wonder
                          > > > if this was always the case? Or, did Klemp redefine this
                          > > > dogma (with these restrictions) "after" he slowed the
                          > > > initiations down?
                          > > >
                          > > > Therefore, Klemp might want to hold onto his MAHANTA
                          > > > position, until, he can get the majority of "his" Chelas to
                          > > > the 6th initiation. Maybe this is why he slowed initiations
                          > > > down in the first place? Maybe it was used as a ploy, along
                          > > > with building structures, to insure that he would need to
                          > > > be the LEM and/or Mahanta for 25-30 years or longer!
                          > > >
                          > > > Yes, Klemp is very selfish and has done ECK Chelas an
                          > > > even greater injustice than Gross ever did. Klemp's focus
                          > > > has been on the tangible instead of the intangible.
                          > > >
                          > > > Prometheus
                          >
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