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Re: Don Ginn - The Next LEM?

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  • mishmisha9
    Don Ginn sounds like the right man for the job, doesn t he? He knows how to go after chelas money and now wonder that Klemp likes him! Here s the exact
    Message 1 of 15 , Oct 1, 2007
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      Don Ginn sounds like the right man for the job, doesn't he?
      He knows how to go after chelas' money and now wonder that
      Klemp likes him!

      Here's the exact statement posted by Bob Hepple on the
      California Satsang Society Chela News & Events publication
      regarding raising money for their building fund:

      "How can I donate? There are many ways that you can donate.
      Enclosed is an envelope and donation form that will allow
      you to receive a tax receipt for your check or credit card
      donation. Also enclosed are two brochures, published by
      ECKANKAR Spiritual Center, that explain how to bequeath
      the California Satsang Society in your will or living trust,
      or make the Society a beneficiary of your retirement,
      pension plan, or life insurance policy."

      This very plainly states how such cult groups like eckankar go
      after members' money. I find it interesting that Don Ginn and
      Bob Hepple are very vague as to what the expense will be for
      this building venture. They do not indicate in anyway what
      such an enterprise will cost, they just say they have to
      see how much money they raise first before they check
      what it will likely cost. Any fund raiser I've been a part of
      always had a minimum goal of what amount of dollars was
      needed. They don't have any property picked out or the
      location--this is purely give them the money first and then
      they will decide how to spend it. Another disturbing thing
      is how blatantly eckankar goes after members money,
      including pensions, life insurance and other money that
      most people bequeath to surviving family members. This
      shows how callous eckankar is regarding family structure
      and well-being. Eckankar breaks down family ties in order
      to get the family money! But of course that is what all cults
      are after--bleeding chelas dry but making them imagine
      they are getting something in the bargain, a stairway to
      heaven, perhaps!

      Mish


      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
      <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
      >
      > Will Don Ginn be named the LEM at this 2007 EK Worldwide
      > Seminar? Maybe! Word is that Don is moving to Minneapolis.
      > Why else would an 8th initiate and RESA from California be
      > moving to the Minneapolis area! It looks like Ginn will be the
      > new LEM while Klemp remains the Mahanta. This is a win/win
      > for Don because he will receive 50% royalties from all books
      > he writes, a car, a house, good pay, and a great pension and
      > health plan among other perks. Also, Don will still be spending
      > much time in California. Rumor also has it that Mark Alexander
      > will be moving up the ladder, in California, as well.
      >
      > [In 2006 Joan Klemp was to be named the Co-LEM (or FLEM),
      > but Mish revealed Klemp's plan before it could be implemented.]
      >
      > It seems that Eckankar and its Satsang Societies are still looking
      > to get their hands on people's money By Any Means Necessary.
      > Look at what they tell members.
      >
      > http://eck-ca.org/chelas/CSS_chela.html
      >
      > Or, if this doesn't come up just go to the site for Eckankar's
      > California Satsang Society. [use lower case]
      > User ID is: september
      > Password: today
      >
      > Don Ginn and Bob Hepple (a member of Eckankar's International
      > Board of Trustees) tell Chelas that they can donate money via
      > check or credit card and use this as a tax receipt. They also mention
      > that one can bequeath money to Eckankar via Will, living trust, or
      > to make the org a beneficiary of your retirement, pension plan,
      > or life insurance.
      >
      > What happens to one's family when an imbalanced member of EK
      > gives the org his retirement, pension plan, or life insurance? Does
      > Klemp, Ginn, or Hepple care what happens these families?
      > Apparently Not!
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
    • Elizabeth
      Hi Mish and all, I am surprised too that eckankar doesn t go into further detail, explaining how a will should be written so family members can not contest
      Message 2 of 15 , Oct 1, 2007
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        Hi Mish and all,
         
        I am surprised too that eckankar doesn't go into further detail,  explaining how a will should be written so family members can not contest such a donation.  (or do they?)
         
        When I was still a member, my DH and I had wills drawn up through an attorney I use for family issues.  I questioned how a portion could be left to my church.  My attorney gave me a funny look and said "your family should always come first"!  We had an interesting conversation, and in the end I didn't leave anything to eckankar.    ;-)     All it takes is discussing something of this nature with an outsider, and they tend to have a much better way of putting the important things into perspective. 
         
        Liz
         
         
        ---------------------------------------------------------
         
        Mish wrote:
         
        Here's the exact statement posted by Bob Hepple on the
        California Satsang Society Chela News & Events  publication
        regarding raising money for their building fund:
         
        "How can I donate? There are many ways that you can donate.
        Enclosed is an envelope and donation form that will allow
        you to receive a tax receipt for your check or credit card
        donation. Also enclosed are two brochures, published by
        ECKANKAR Spiritual Center, that explain how to bequeath
        the California Satsang Society in your will or living trust,
        or make the Society a beneficiary of your retirement,
        pension plan, or life insurance policy."
         
        This very plainly states how such cult groups like eckankar go
        after members' money. 
        <snip>
         Another disturbing thing is how blatantly eckankar goes after members money,
        including pensions, life insurance and other money that
        most people bequeath to surviving family members. This
        shows how callous eckankar is regarding family structure
        and well-being. Eckankar breaks down family ties in order
        to get the family money! But of course that is what all cults
        are after--bleeding chelas dry but making them imagine
        they are getting something in the bargain, a stairway to
        heaven, perhaps!
         
         
         
      • mishmisha9
        Hi, Liz! It seems this attorney was thinking outside of the box! : ) When we close ourselves off from the outside world by joining a cult like eckankar, we box
        Message 3 of 15 , Oct 2, 2007
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          Hi, Liz!

          It seems this attorney was thinking outside of the box! : ) When we
          close ourselves off from the outside world by joining a cult like
          eckankar, we box ourselves into a small isolated tunnel like place and
          can forget the basic things in life like "your family comes first."

          Mish

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth"
          <ewickings@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Mish and all,
          >
          > I am surprised too that eckankar doesn't go into further detail, explaining
          > how a will should be written so family members can not contest such a
          > donation. (or do they?)
          >
          > When I was still a member, my DH and I had wills drawn up through an
          > attorney I use for family issues. I questioned how a portion could be left
          > to my church. My attorney gave me a funny look and said "your family should
          > always come first"! We had an interesting conversation, and in the end I
          > didn't leave anything to eckankar. ;-) All it takes is discussing
          > something of this nature with an outsider, and they tend to have a much
          > better way of putting the important things into perspective.
          >
          > Liz
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------------------------------
          >
          > Mish wrote:
          >
          > Here's the exact statement posted by Bob Hepple on the
          > California Satsang Society Chela News & Events publication
          > regarding raising money for their building fund:
          >
          > "How can I donate? There are many ways that you can donate.
          > Enclosed is an envelope and donation form that will allow
          > you to receive a tax receipt for your check or credit card
          > donation. Also enclosed are two brochures, published by
          > ECKANKAR Spiritual Center, that explain how to bequeath
          > the California Satsang Society in your will or living trust,
          > or make the Society a beneficiary of your retirement,
          > pension plan, or life insurance policy."
          >
          > This very plainly states how such cult groups like eckankar go
          > after members' money.
          > <snip>
          > Another disturbing thing is how blatantly eckankar goes after members money
          >
          > including pensions, life insurance and other money that
          > most people bequeath to surviving family members. This
          > shows how callous eckankar is regarding family structure
          > and well-being. Eckankar breaks down family ties in order
          > to get the family money! But of course that is what all cults
          > are after--bleeding chelas dry but making them imagine
          > they are getting something in the bargain, a stairway to
          > heaven, perhaps!
          >
        • prometheus_973
          Hi All, Yes, it seems that Don might be the next LEM while Klemp remains the full Mahanta. Of course there is, still, the possibility that Joan is made the
          Message 4 of 15 , Oct 2, 2007
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            Hi All,
            Yes, it seems that Don might be the next LEM while
            Klemp remains the "full" Mahanta. Of course there is,
            still, the possibility that Joan is made the Co-LEM
            (since a female could only share this position, due to
            "their" negative atoms).

            As a "junior" and/or Co-LEM (under the guidance &
            supervision of the "full" LEM/Mahanta) Joan could take
            over, even more, duties for her husband at the ESC.

            Or, Don can be given these duties as a "junior" LEM while
            Joan continues her role at the ESC while spying on Don
            for HK!

            Anyway, it's a win/win for them right!

            I wonder... Would Joan be able to take orders from Don,
            or will she, only, be obeying the Living ECK... Mahanta
            like Marge?

            Prometheus


            > mish wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > Hi, Liz!
            > >
            > It seems this attorney was thinking outside of the box! : ) When we
            > close ourselves off from the outside world by joining a cult like
            > eckankar, we box ourselves into a small isolated tunnel like place and
            > can forget the basic things in life like "your family comes first."
            > >
            > Mish
            > >
            > Liz wrote:
            > > >
            > Hi Mish and all,
            > > >
            > I am surprised too that eckankar doesn't go into further detail, explaining
            > how a will should be written so family members can not contest such a
            > donation. (or do they?)
            > > >
            > When I was still a member, my DH and I had wills drawn up through an
            > attorney I use for family issues. I questioned how a portion could be left
            > to my church. My attorney gave me a funny look and said "your family should
            > always come first"! We had an interesting conversation, and in the end I
            > didn't leave anything to eckankar. ;-) All it takes is discussing
            > something of this nature with an outsider, and they tend to have a much
            > better way of putting the important things into perspective.
            >
            > Liz
            >
            > ---------------------------------------------------------
            >
            > Mish wrote:
            > > >
            > Here's the exact statement posted by Bob Hepple on the
            > California Satsang Society Chela News & Events publication
            > regarding raising money for their building fund:
            > > >
            > "How can I donate? There are many ways that you can donate.
            > Enclosed is an envelope and donation form that will allow
            > you to receive a tax receipt for your check or credit card
            > donation. Also enclosed are two brochures, published by
            > ECKANKAR Spiritual Center, that explain how to bequeath
            > the California Satsang Society in your will or living trust,
            > or make the Society a beneficiary of your retirement,
            > pension plan, or life insurance policy."
            > > >
            >
            > This very plainly states how such cult groups like eckankar go
            > after members' money.
            >
            > <snip>
            >
            > Another disturbing thing is how blatantly eckankar goes after
            > members money including pensions, life insurance and other
            > money that most people bequeath to surviving family members.
            > This shows how callous eckankar is regarding family structure
            > and well-being. Eckankar breaks down family ties in order to
            > get the family money! But of course that is what all cults are
            > after--bleeding chelas dry but making them imagine they are
            > getting something in the bargain, a stairway to heaven, perhaps!
            >
          • mishmisha9
            Hi, Everyone! When I read Klemp s book Those Wonderful ECK Masters, I saw this book as a tool Klemp had created to elevate Joan to an eck master, and I still
            Message 5 of 15 , Oct 4, 2007
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              Hi, Everyone!

              When I read Klemp's book "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," I
              saw this book as a tool Klemp had created to elevate Joan
              to an eck master, and I still believe that was one of the basic
              purposes of the book. Klemp thinks he can cleverly insert subtle
              ideas that when the reader goes back later, can say, oh, yes,
              it's in there--how could one miss it! LOL! So, it is in "Those
              Wonderful ECK Masters" that Joan appears in some chelas
              dreams doing what eck masters are supposed to do, helping
              chelas to find the mahanta! Also, in the chapter on Kata Daki,
              Klemp explains how more female eck masters are coming out
              to be known--he states it is now time! Again, it is time for
              Joan to be an eck master. . . . Anyway, this is what I saw in
              the book and I still believe that was Klemp's primary motivation
              to write the book when he did. I also believe that Klemp was
              planning to announce some changes in the leadership of
              eckankar, positioning Joan in a bigger role of power so that
              she could "officially" assist him in his declining years as
              master of the universe. Now, I don't have those feelings of
              a big announcement in that regard coming out publicly to
              the chelas soon, if ever! I guess the chelas will have to get it
              on the inner! LOL!

              Seriously, though, positioning Joan in such a way before the
              chelas would at the very least give her some clout if Klemp
              became disabled or dead. I'm sure Klemp is recalling
              what happened when PT suddenly died and how Gail then
              selected the next L.E.M. mahanta in a dream and then later
              married him! Hey, is Don Ginn married??? : )

              There are big changes coming in the hierarchial structure
              of the eckankar org--but not sure when it will be announced.
              Maybe Klemp has decided not to appear so frail for the time
              being as he continues his scheming to remain where he is
              in the seat of eck power as long as he can! He's changed his
              course a little bit for now, so I foresee a very boring up-coming
              EWWS! It will be pretty much the same old eckancrap!

              Chelas, I advise that you save your time and money by staying
              home . . . or if you're truly in the mood to travel, go some
              place fun and warm for a change! : )

              Mish

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
              "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi All,
              > Yes, it seems that Don might be the next LEM while
              > Klemp remains the "full" Mahanta. Of course there is,
              > still, the possibility that Joan is made the Co-LEM
              > (since a female could only share this position, due to
              > "their" negative atoms).
              >
              > As a "junior" and/or Co-LEM (under the guidance &
              > supervision of the "full" LEM/Mahanta) Joan could take
              > over, even more, duties for her husband at the ESC.
              >
              > Or, Don can be given these duties as a "junior" LEM while
              > Joan continues her role at the ESC while spying on Don
              > for HK!
              >
              > Anyway, it's a win/win for them right!
              >
              > I wonder... Would Joan be able to take orders from Don,
              > or will she, only, be obeying the Living ECK... Mahanta
              > like Marge?
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
              >
              > > mish wrote:
              > > >
              > > >
              > > Hi, Liz!
              > > >
              > > It seems this attorney was thinking outside of the box! : ) When we
              > > close ourselves off from the outside world by joining a cult like
              > > eckankar, we box ourselves into a small isolated tunnel like place and
              > > can forget the basic things in life like "your family comes first."
              > > >
              > > Mish
              > > >
              > > Liz wrote:
              > > > >
              > > Hi Mish and all,
              > > > >
              > > I am surprised too that eckankar doesn't go into further detail, explaining
              > > how a will should be written so family members can not contest such a
              > > donation. (or do they?)
              > > > >
              > > When I was still a member, my DH and I had wills drawn up through an
              > > attorney I use for family issues. I questioned how a portion could be left
              > > to my church. My attorney gave me a funny look and said "your family should
              > > always come first"! We had an interesting conversation, and in the end I
              > > didn't leave anything to eckankar. ;-) All it takes is discussing
              > > something of this nature with an outsider, and they tend to have a much
              > > better way of putting the important things into perspective.
              > >
              > > Liz
              > >
              > > ---------------------------------------------------------
              > >
              > > Mish wrote:
              > > > >
              > > Here's the exact statement posted by Bob Hepple on the
              > > California Satsang Society Chela News & Events publication
              > > regarding raising money for their building fund:
              > > > >
              > > "How can I donate? There are many ways that you can donate.
              > > Enclosed is an envelope and donation form that will allow
              > > you to receive a tax receipt for your check or credit card
              > > donation. Also enclosed are two brochures, published by
              > > ECKANKAR Spiritual Center, that explain how to bequeath
              > > the California Satsang Society in your will or living trust,
              > > or make the Society a beneficiary of your retirement,
              > > pension plan, or life insurance policy."
              > > > >
              > >
              > > This very plainly states how such cult groups like eckankar go
              > > after members' money.
              > >
              > > <snip>
              > >
              > > Another disturbing thing is how blatantly eckankar goes after
              > > members money including pensions, life insurance and other
              > > money that most people bequeath to surviving family members.
              > > This shows how callous eckankar is regarding family structure
              > > and well-being. Eckankar breaks down family ties in order to
              > > get the family money! But of course that is what all cults are
              > > after--bleeding chelas dry but making them imagine they are
              > > getting something in the bargain, a stairway to heaven, perhaps!
              > >
              >
            • prometheus_973
              Hi Mish, Excellent post! On the other hand... the more I think about it... perhaps Don will take the place of Peter Skelsky and Peter will become the next LEM.
              Message 6 of 15 , Oct 4, 2007
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                Hi Mish,
                Excellent post! On the other hand... the more I think
                about it... perhaps Don will take the place of Peter
                Skelsky and Peter will become the next LEM.

                Isn't it interesting that Klemp, at the 1983 H.I. Meeting,
                said that he would be the LEM/Mahanta for 10 to 20
                years in order to complete his mission. And, HK boasted
                that unlike Darwin he would Let Go of the Rod of ECK
                Power before it burned him and affected his health.

                Actually, I didn't see where the "Rod" had "burned" DG
                and, therefore, supposedly affected his health. HK and
                the Board of Trustees are the ones that burned DG!

                Anyway, Klemp has held onto the Rod of ECK Power
                with a death grip, and has gone way beyond the 20
                years promised to complete his mission (of building
                structures).

                What should have been Klemp's mission? Isn't the real
                mission of a Mahanta: To take MORE Souls into the HIGHEST
                Planes of the Sugmad; To do this more directly or FASTER
                than any other religion or spiritual path could; To set
                Souls FREE, thus, they too become MASTERS?!

                Instead, Klemp slowed Initiations down, and told ECKists
                that he would! Why did he Not Speed these up at some
                point? Look at the long-time 7th initiates that have been
                7ths... for 20 plus years! What's with that? Why aren't
                there more 8ths? I know that there are 9ths... including
                Joan! Why the Glass Ceiling for long-time 7ths and former
                RESAs? What does Klemp fear, or is this another effect
                from Not having Let Go (of the Rod) when he should have?!

                Yes, Klemp was burned a long time ago when one looks
                at his EMR problems beginning around 1990. Look at
                his health problems of the last few years! So, I guess
                his reasoning is, still, that his replacement wasn't ready.
                Is that the way things are supposed to work in Eckankar?

                A replacement is ready when the need arises just like
                when the chela is ready the Master will appear. Klemp
                can tell chelas anything at anytime and chelas will accept
                it because if they can't then something must be wrong
                with them. The possibility can never exist that something
                is wrong with Klemp or that he is lying. Yet, didn't HK
                say that Twitchell 'twisted facts?' And, Marman said that
                Twitchell used half-truths while Rich (another ECKist)
                claims that PT plagarized 7% of his works! Didn't DG
                "fall" from Grace? It's obvious that Klemp had fallen long
                ago... circa 1990 perhaps?! The truth does have a bite
                to it at times and this is why people will deny it for as
                long as they can. This is why HK wants ECKists to "imagine"
                that everything is fine with his leadership. The mind is
                very powerful... just look at what it can do when under
                a concentrated focus... like with hypnosis.

                So why do ECKists believe Klemp's version of truth? it's
                because they fear the real truth that he's a fraud. What
                else do they have to believe in? Eckankar is their life...
                their crutch... they think. But there is much more! And
                one can only discover this when they have Let Go...
                Break the Chains and stand in a clear new light as a free
                Soul.

                However, and on the other hand, after the fiasco with
                Darwin one would think that ECKists could handle the
                truth. And, wouldn't Klemp want to show the finances
                to the General Membership in an Annual Report. That
                doesn't happen though does it! Instead, Klemp puts the
                fear of asking questions into chelas because questioning
                his authority on anything will cause a chela to be held back
                on Initiations. Never complain in your IRO or HIRO because
                it will be put into your file at the ESC. "Good" ECKists must
                always practice the "Law of Silence" and "Surrender" their
                ability to think.

                So what's all this mean? It means that most ECKists
                really want to see a change in leadership, but can't say
                so. Klemp hasn't done anything except to create more
                structures and write a ton of worthless books. Why are
                these books worthless? Because the "spiritual" message
                is way too simple, of lower consciousness, and is redundant
                because one can find similar books everywhere and by
                other secular or religious writers. Besides, these books
                of Klemp's are only directed to the uninitiated public or
                to the vast number of simple-minded chelas that don't
                "Get It." These are Klemp's other Money Makers because
                he gets 50% of the royalities!

                ECKists have been duped for a long time and for 25
                years by Klemp! Even this narcissist knows that it has
                to end soon. But why travel to Minneapolis to see the
                new LEM when you've seen them before and will see and
                hear from them more in the future? And, if you're a
                True Blue ECKist, of higher consciousness, you should be
                able to project yourself there, or see it on the Inner. Right!

                Prometheus


                Mish wrote:
                >
                > Hi, Everyone!
                >
                > When I read Klemp's book "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," I
                > saw this book as a tool Klemp had created to elevate Joan
                > to an eck master, and I still believe that was one of the basic
                > purposes of the book. Klemp thinks he can cleverly insert subtle
                > ideas that when the reader goes back later, can say, oh, yes,
                > it's in there--how could one miss it! LOL! So, it is in "Those
                > Wonderful ECK Masters" that Joan appears in some chelas
                > dreams doing what eck masters are supposed to do, helping
                > chelas to find the mahanta! Also, in the chapter on Kata Daki,
                > Klemp explains how more female eck masters are coming out
                > to be known--he states it is now time! Again, it is time for
                > Joan to be an eck master. . . . Anyway, this is what I saw in
                > the book and I still believe that was Klemp's primary motivation
                > to write the book when he did. I also believe that Klemp was
                > planning to announce some changes in the leadership of
                > eckankar, positioning Joan in a bigger role of power so that
                > she could "officially" assist him in his declining years as
                > master of the universe. Now, I don't have those feelings of
                > a big announcement in that regard coming out publicly to
                > the chelas soon, if ever! I guess the chelas will have to get it
                > on the inner! LOL!
                >
                > Seriously, though, positioning Joan in such a way before the
                > chelas would at the very least give her some clout if Klemp
                > became disabled or dead. I'm sure Klemp is recalling
                > what happened when PT suddenly died and how Gail then
                > selected the next L.E.M. mahanta in a dream and then later
                > married him! Hey, is Don Ginn married??? : )
                >
                > There are big changes coming in the hierarchial structure
                > of the eckankar org--but not sure when it will be announced.
                > Maybe Klemp has decided not to appear so frail for the time
                > being as he continues his scheming to remain where he is
                > in the seat of eck power as long as he can! He's changed his
                > course a little bit for now, so I foresee a very boring up-coming
                > EWWS! It will be pretty much the same old eckancrap!
                >
                > Chelas, I advise that you save your time and money by staying
                > home . . . or if you're truly in the mood to travel, go some
                > place fun and warm for a change! : )
                >
                > Mish
                >
                > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Hi All,
                > > Yes, it seems that Don might be the next LEM while
                > > Klemp remains the "full" Mahanta. Of course there is,
                > > still, the possibility that Joan is made the Co-LEM
                > > (since a female could only share this position, due to
                > > "their" negative atoms).
                > >
                > > As a "junior" and/or Co-LEM (under the guidance &
                > > supervision of the "full" LEM/Mahanta) Joan could take
                > > over, even more, duties for her husband at the ESC.
                > >
                > > Or, Don can be given these duties as a "junior" LEM while
                > > Joan continues her role at the ESC while spying on Don
                > > for HK!
                > >
                > > Anyway, it's a win/win for them right!
                > >
                > > I wonder... Would Joan be able to take orders from Don,
                > > or will she, only, be obeying the Living ECK... Mahanta
                > > like Marge?
                > >
                > > Prometheus
                > >
                > >
                > > > mish wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > Hi, Liz!
                > > > >
                > > > It seems this attorney was thinking outside of the box! : ) When we
                > > > close ourselves off from the outside world by joining a cult like
                > > > eckankar, we box ourselves into a small isolated tunnel like place and
                > > > can forget the basic things in life like "your family comes first."
                > > > >
                > > > Mish
                > > > >
                > > > Liz wrote:
                > > > > >
                > > > Hi Mish and all,
                > > > > >
                > > > I am surprised too that eckankar doesn't go into further detail, explaining
                > > > how a will should be written so family members can not contest such a
                > > > donation. (or do they?)
                > > > > >
                > > > When I was still a member, my DH and I had wills drawn up through an
                > > > attorney I use for family issues. I questioned how a portion could be left
                > > > to my church. My attorney gave me a funny look and said "your family should
                > > > always come first"! We had an interesting conversation, and in the end I
                > > > didn't leave anything to eckankar. ;-) All it takes is discussing
                > > > something of this nature with an outsider, and they tend to have a much
                > > > better way of putting the important things into perspective.
                > > >
                > > > Liz
                > > >
                > > > ---------------------------------------------------------
                > > >
                > > > Mish wrote:
                > > > > >
                > > > Here's the exact statement posted by Bob Hepple on the
                > > > California Satsang Society Chela News & Events publication
                > > > regarding raising money for their building fund:
                > > > > >
                > > > "How can I donate? There are many ways that you can donate.
                > > > Enclosed is an envelope and donation form that will allow
                > > > you to receive a tax receipt for your check or credit card
                > > > donation. Also enclosed are two brochures, published by
                > > > ECKANKAR Spiritual Center, that explain how to bequeath
                > > > the California Satsang Society in your will or living trust,
                > > > or make the Society a beneficiary of your retirement,
                > > > pension plan, or life insurance policy."
                > > > > >
                > > >
                > > > This very plainly states how such cult groups like eckankar go
                > > > after members' money.
                > > >
                > > > <snip>
                > > >
                > > > Another disturbing thing is how blatantly eckankar goes after
                > > > members money including pensions, life insurance and other
                > > > money that most people bequeath to surviving family members.
                > > > This shows how callous eckankar is regarding family structure
                > > > and well-being. Eckankar breaks down family ties in order to
                > > > get the family money! But of course that is what all cults are
                > > > after--bleeding chelas dry but making them imagine they are
                > > > getting something in the bargain, a stairway to heaven, perhaps!
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • mishmisha9
                Hi, All! What Prometheus wrote here reminded me of something Klemp wrote in Those Wonderful ECK Masters. Prometheus wrote: Isn t it interesting that Klemp,
                Message 7 of 15 , Oct 5, 2007
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                  Hi, All!

                  What Prometheus wrote here reminded me of something
                  Klemp wrote in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters." Prometheus
                  wrote:

                  "Isn't it interesting that Klemp, at the 1983 H.I. Meeting,
                  said that he would be the LEM/Mahanta for 10 to 20
                  years in order to complete his mission. And, HK boasted
                  that unlike Darwin he would Let Go of the Rod of ECK
                  Power before it burned him and affected his health.

                  <snipped>

                  Anyway, Klemp has held onto the Rod of ECK Power
                  with a death grip, and has gone way beyond the 20
                  years promised to complete his mission (of building
                  structures)."

                  On pages 235-236, in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters,"
                  Klemp answered in a chela's dream "the length of his
                  service as the Living ECK Master. How long would he
                  serve in that position? Were there others in training?"

                  Klemp wrote, "The Master assured her that a few
                  initiates were indeed in training for leadership in ECK,
                  but no one was ready yet to assume the responsibility.
                  It might take several years or many more for the first
                  one to complete all the tests. Accordingly, the Master
                  would continue for another cycle as the Mahanta, the
                  Living ECK Master. . . . "

                  Doesn't sound like Klemp is ready to step down yet,
                  and that is why I believe after reading what Klemp wrote
                  about Joan in his book, that he was setting the stage
                  for her elevating to a position of great assistence to
                  the godman! I would think that Don Ginn, Peter Skelsky,
                  and the other hopeful "candidates" waiting in the wings
                  for their chance to grasp the rod of eck power would
                  be discouraged after reading Klemp's book. I agree
                  that Klemp seems to have a death grip on his power--
                  he just can't and won't let go of it! : )

                  Mish

                  p.s. Remember that Don Ginn and Peter Skelsky were
                  both on the Board of Trustees and helped Klemp to
                  boot Darwin. These guys were at least 7th initiates
                  25 years ago, so how embarrassing it must be to them that
                  it is taking so long for the godman Klemp to train them!
                  Either they are slow learners or Klemp is, as we know,
                  incompetent and a fraud--Klemp has none of the powers he
                  claims! Well, stupidity does abound in eckankar for sure!

                  ################################

                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                  "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Mish,
                  > Excellent post! On the other hand... the more I think
                  > about it... perhaps Don will take the place of Peter
                  > Skelsky and Peter will become the next LEM.
                  >
                  > Isn't it interesting that Klemp, at the 1983 H.I. Meeting,
                  > said that he would be the LEM/Mahanta for 10 to 20
                  > years in order to complete his mission. And, HK boasted
                  > that unlike Darwin he would Let Go of the Rod of ECK
                  > Power before it burned him and affected his health.
                  >
                  > Actually, I didn't see where the "Rod" had "burned" DG
                  > and, therefore, supposedly affected his health. HK and
                  > the Board of Trustees are the ones that burned DG!
                  >
                  > Anyway, Klemp has held onto the Rod of ECK Power
                  > with a death grip, and has gone way beyond the 20
                  > years promised to complete his mission (of building
                  > structures).
                  >
                  > What should have been Klemp's mission? Isn't the real
                  > mission of a Mahanta: To take MORE Souls into the HIGHEST
                  > Planes of the Sugmad; To do this more directly or FASTER
                  > than any other religion or spiritual path could; To set
                  > Souls FREE, thus, they too become MASTERS?!
                  >
                  > Instead, Klemp slowed Initiations down, and told ECKists
                  > that he would! Why did he Not Speed these up at some
                  > point? Look at the long-time 7th initiates that have been
                  > 7ths... for 20 plus years! What's with that? Why aren't
                  > there more 8ths? I know that there are 9ths... including
                  > Joan! Why the Glass Ceiling for long-time 7ths and former
                  > RESAs? What does Klemp fear, or is this another effect
                  > from Not having Let Go (of the Rod) when he should have?!
                  >
                  > Yes, Klemp was burned a long time ago when one looks
                  > at his EMR problems beginning around 1990. Look at
                  > his health problems of the last few years! So, I guess
                  > his reasoning is, still, that his replacement wasn't ready.
                  > Is that the way things are supposed to work in Eckankar?
                  >
                  > A replacement is ready when the need arises just like
                  > when the chela is ready the Master will appear. Klemp
                  > can tell chelas anything at anytime and chelas will accept
                  > it because if they can't then something must be wrong
                  > with them. The possibility can never exist that something
                  > is wrong with Klemp or that he is lying. Yet, didn't HK
                  > say that Twitchell 'twisted facts?' And, Marman said that
                  > Twitchell used half-truths while Rich (another ECKist)
                  > claims that PT plagarized 7% of his works! Didn't DG
                  > "fall" from Grace? It's obvious that Klemp had fallen long
                  > ago... circa 1990 perhaps?! The truth does have a bite
                  > to it at times and this is why people will deny it for as
                  > long as they can. This is why HK wants ECKists to "imagine"
                  > that everything is fine with his leadership. The mind is
                  > very powerful... just look at what it can do when under
                  > a concentrated focus... like with hypnosis.
                  >
                  > So why do ECKists believe Klemp's version of truth? it's
                  > because they fear the real truth that he's a fraud. What
                  > else do they have to believe in? Eckankar is their life...
                  > their crutch... they think. But there is much more! And
                  > one can only discover this when they have Let Go...
                  > Break the Chains and stand in a clear new light as a free
                  > Soul.
                  >
                  > However, and on the other hand, after the fiasco with
                  > Darwin one would think that ECKists could handle the
                  > truth. And, wouldn't Klemp want to show the finances
                  > to the General Membership in an Annual Report. That
                  > doesn't happen though does it! Instead, Klemp puts the
                  > fear of asking questions into chelas because questioning
                  > his authority on anything will cause a chela to be held back
                  > on Initiations. Never complain in your IRO or HIRO because
                  > it will be put into your file at the ESC. "Good" ECKists must
                  > always practice the "Law of Silence" and "Surrender" their
                  > ability to think.
                  >
                  > So what's all this mean? It means that most ECKists
                  > really want to see a change in leadership, but can't say
                  > so. Klemp hasn't done anything except to create more
                  > structures and write a ton of worthless books. Why are
                  > these books worthless? Because the "spiritual" message
                  > is way too simple, of lower consciousness, and is redundant
                  > because one can find similar books everywhere and by
                  > other secular or religious writers. Besides, these books
                  > of Klemp's are only directed to the uninitiated public or
                  > to the vast number of simple-minded chelas that don't
                  > "Get It." These are Klemp's other Money Makers because
                  > he gets 50% of the royalities!
                  >
                  > ECKists have been duped for a long time and for 25
                  > years by Klemp! Even this narcissist knows that it has
                  > to end soon. But why travel to Minneapolis to see the
                  > new LEM when you've seen them before and will see and
                  > hear from them more in the future? And, if you're a
                  > True Blue ECKist, of higher consciousness, you should be
                  > able to project yourself there, or see it on the Inner. Right!
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                  >
                  > Mish wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hi, Everyone!
                  > >
                  > > When I read Klemp's book "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," I
                  > > saw this book as a tool Klemp had created to elevate Joan
                  > > to an eck master, and I still believe that was one of the basic
                  > > purposes of the book. Klemp thinks he can cleverly insert subtle
                  > > ideas that when the reader goes back later, can say, oh, yes,
                  > > it's in there--how could one miss it! LOL! So, it is in "Those
                  > > Wonderful ECK Masters" that Joan appears in some chelas
                  > > dreams doing what eck masters are supposed to do, helping
                  > > chelas to find the mahanta! Also, in the chapter on Kata Daki,
                  > > Klemp explains how more female eck masters are coming out
                  > > to be known--he states it is now time! Again, it is time for
                  > > Joan to be an eck master. . . . Anyway, this is what I saw in
                  > > the book and I still believe that was Klemp's primary motivation
                  > > to write the book when he did. I also believe that Klemp was
                  > > planning to announce some changes in the leadership of
                  > > eckankar, positioning Joan in a bigger role of power so that
                  > > she could "officially" assist him in his declining years as
                  > > master of the universe. Now, I don't have those feelings of
                  > > a big announcement in that regard coming out publicly to
                  > > the chelas soon, if ever! I guess the chelas will have to get it
                  > > on the inner! LOL!
                  > >
                  > > Seriously, though, positioning Joan in such a way before the
                  > > chelas would at the very least give her some clout if Klemp
                  > > became disabled or dead. I'm sure Klemp is recalling
                  > > what happened when PT suddenly died and how Gail then
                  > > selected the next L.E.M. mahanta in a dream and then later
                  > > married him! Hey, is Don Ginn married??? : )
                  > >
                  > > There are big changes coming in the hierarchial structure
                  > > of the eckankar org--but not sure when it will be announced.
                  > > Maybe Klemp has decided not to appear so frail for the time
                  > > being as he continues his scheming to remain where he is
                  > > in the seat of eck power as long as he can! He's changed his
                  > > course a little bit for now, so I foresee a very boring up-coming
                  > > EWWS! It will be pretty much the same old eckancrap!
                  > >
                  > > Chelas, I advise that you save your time and money by staying
                  > > home . . . or if you're truly in the mood to travel, go some
                  > > place fun and warm for a change! : )
                  > >
                  > > Mish
                  > >
                  > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                  > > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Hi All,
                  > > > Yes, it seems that Don might be the next LEM while
                  > > > Klemp remains the "full" Mahanta. Of course there is,
                  > > > still, the possibility that Joan is made the Co-LEM
                  > > > (since a female could only share this position, due to
                  > > > "their" negative atoms).
                  > > >
                  > > > As a "junior" and/or Co-LEM (under the guidance &
                  > > > supervision of the "full" LEM/Mahanta) Joan could take
                  > > > over, even more, duties for her husband at the ESC.
                  > > >
                  > > > Or, Don can be given these duties as a "junior" LEM while
                  > > > Joan continues her role at the ESC while spying on Don
                  > > > for HK!
                  > > >
                  > > > Anyway, it's a win/win for them right!
                  > > >
                  > > > I wonder... Would Joan be able to take orders from Don,
                  > > > or will she, only, be obeying the Living ECK... Mahanta
                  > > > like Marge?
                  > > >
                  > > > Prometheus
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > > mish wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > Hi, Liz!
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > It seems this attorney was thinking outside of the box! : ) When we
                  > > > > close ourselves off from the outside world by joining a cult like
                  > > > > eckankar, we box ourselves into a small isolated tunnel like place and
                  > > > > can forget the basic things in life like "your family comes first."
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > Mish
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > Liz wrote:
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > Hi Mish and all,
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > I am surprised too that eckankar doesn't go into further detail, explaining
                  > > > > how a will should be written so family members can not contest such a
                  > > > > donation. (or do they?)
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > When I was still a member, my DH and I had wills drawn up through an
                  > > > > attorney I use for family issues. I questioned how a portion could be left
                  > > > > to my church. My attorney gave me a funny look and said "your family should
                  > > > > always come first"! We had an interesting conversation, and in the end I
                  > > > > didn't leave anything to eckankar. ;-) All it takes is discussing
                  > > > > something of this nature with an outsider, and they tend to have a much
                  > > > > better way of putting the important things into perspective.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Liz
                  > > > >
                  > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Mish wrote:
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > Here's the exact statement posted by Bob Hepple on the
                  > > > > California Satsang Society Chela News & Events publication
                  > > > > regarding raising money for their building fund:
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > "How can I donate? There are many ways that you can donate.
                  > > > > Enclosed is an envelope and donation form that will allow
                  > > > > you to receive a tax receipt for your check or credit card
                  > > > > donation. Also enclosed are two brochures, published by
                  > > > > ECKANKAR Spiritual Center, that explain how to bequeath
                  > > > > the California Satsang Society in your will or living trust,
                  > > > > or make the Society a beneficiary of your retirement,
                  > > > > pension plan, or life insurance policy."
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > This very plainly states how such cult groups like eckankar go
                  > > > > after members' money.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > <snip>
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Another disturbing thing is how blatantly eckankar goes after
                  > > > > members money including pensions, life insurance and other
                  > > > > money that most people bequeath to surviving family members.
                  > > > > This shows how callous eckankar is regarding family structure
                  > > > > and well-being. Eckankar breaks down family ties in order to
                  > > > > get the family money! But of course that is what all cults are
                  > > > > after--bleeding chelas dry but making them imagine they are
                  > > > > getting something in the bargain, a stairway to heaven, perhaps!
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • prometheus_973
                  Hi Mish, I just read your post. Good one! Yes, it does seem like Klemp is taking an awfully long time to train a replacement. HK s Wonderful book has a
                  Message 8 of 15 , Oct 5, 2007
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                    Hi Mish,
                    I just read your post. Good one! Yes, it does seem
                    like Klemp is taking an awfully long time to "train"
                    a replacement. HK's "Wonderful" book has
                    a 2005 copyright and he states it will take him
                    "several" more years to train someone! A "few"
                    means 3-4 right? Therefore, "several" would be
                    4-5 or more right? Or, is Klemp incompetent at
                    counting as well? If Klemp is being honest and
                    is not trying to blind-side his chelas it would seem
                    that his replacement won't be ready until, at least,
                    Oct. 22, 2009. However, ECKists must always keep
                    in mind the Catch-22 rule!

                    However, has Klemp ever really been open, honest,
                    or clear about anything? Hmmmmm. The closest
                    he came to this was when he had to admit (because
                    of it being Public Record) that he was locked-up in
                    a mental institution. However, Klemp then put his
                    Damage Control Spin on this incident (lemons into
                    lemonade?) as he typically blamed or found fault with
                    everyone at the mental health facility except himself.
                    Re-read it for yourself and see! Klemp has never taken
                    Responsibility for his harsh words, judgments, or negative
                    actions and reactions toward others nor has he, ever,
                    shown any Empathy, tolerance, or compassion. These
                    are virtures and indicators of a higher Love.

                    I challenge ECKists to point out where, in HK's vast
                    writings, he has Ever Admitted to having made a Mistake,
                    or of Showning Empathy toward others... especially
                    to non-ECKists! One can rationalize that it is showing
                    "tough love" when involving chelas, but how about
                    with others? And No, it's Not Detachment either! It's
                    the Catch-22 Mahanta Consciousness Ploy of Denial.
                    ECKists are stupid and delusional to believe that everything
                    they are told is true... except when they validate it via
                    Imagination and with the use of a "charged word!" LOL!
                    As Below So Above and Vice-Versa?!

                    Yes, HK is always pointing the finger and blaming others.
                    Klemp went to the 1971 ECK Worldwide instead of to his
                    own father's funeral to be with his mother, brothers, and
                    sister. Then, HK makes excuses for this insensitive and
                    narcissistic behaviour by quoting Jesus, in his year 2000
                    "Autobiography," while Talking About having Love for God.
                    Then Klemp tells ECKists that they must have a "Loving Heart"
                    and be an example for others. What a hypocrite!

                    BTW- Here's what Klemp had to say on Eckankar.org about
                    "when" Twitchell first met Rebazar.

                    "Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951 in the foothills of the
                    Himalayas near Darjeeling." [Hmmmm. This Darjee(ling) sounds
                    like Darji]

                    http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html

                    Therefore, if you believe this crap, Rebazar had from
                    1951-1965 to "train" Twitchell for the LEM position.

                    Rebazar, during a time when the World's Consciousness
                    was lower, took 14 years to "train" Twitchell.

                    Then, Twitchell had from 1965-1971 to "train" Gross. This
                    is only 6 years. Maybe it took "less" time to train Darwin
                    because the World's Consciousness, even due to wars, etc.,
                    has expanded even more.

                    Gross, then, took 10 years to "train" Klemp. Actually,
                    Gross was going to hand the Rod to Klemp in 1980 after
                    9 years, but took an extra year to finish Klemp's "training."

                    Here's the score on passing the Rod:

                    RT-PT=14 years
                    PT-DG=6 years
                    DG-HK=10 years
                    HK-??=25 years

                    Does it look like Klemp has, maybe, held onto his Power
                    over these EK chelas Way Too Long?

                    [BTW-HK's chelas are those First initiated After Oct. 22, 1981.]

                    It looks like HK (the most advanced Mahanta ever, he claims)
                    Should Not have taken more than 15 years to "train" someone,
                    and that's giving him a lot of "wiggle" room.

                    Prometheus




                    mish wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi, All!
                    >
                    > What Prometheus wrote here reminded me of something
                    > Klemp wrote in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters." Prometheus
                    > wrote:
                    >
                    > "Isn't it interesting that Klemp, at the 1983 H.I. Meeting,
                    > said that he would be the LEM/Mahanta for 10 to 20
                    > years in order to complete his mission. And, HK boasted
                    > that unlike Darwin he would Let Go of the Rod of ECK
                    > Power before it burned him and affected his health.
                    >
                    > <snipped>
                    >
                    > Anyway, Klemp has held onto the Rod of ECK Power
                    > with a death grip, and has gone way beyond the 20
                    > years promised to complete his mission (of building
                    > structures)."
                    >
                    > On pages 235-236, in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters,"
                    > Klemp answered in a chela's dream "the length of his
                    > service as the Living ECK Master. How long would he
                    > serve in that position? Were there others in training?"
                    >
                    > Klemp wrote, "The Master assured her that a few
                    > initiates were indeed in training for leadership in ECK,
                    > but no one was ready yet to assume the responsibility.
                    > It might take several years or many more for the first
                    > one to complete all the tests. Accordingly, the Master
                    > would continue for another cycle as the Mahanta, the
                    > Living ECK Master. . . . "
                    >
                    > Doesn't sound like Klemp is ready to step down yet,
                    > and that is why I believe after reading what Klemp wrote
                    > about Joan in his book, that he was setting the stage
                    > for her elevating to a position of great assistence to
                    > the godman! I would think that Don Ginn, Peter Skelsky,
                    > and the other hopeful "candidates" waiting in the wings
                    > for their chance to grasp the rod of eck power would
                    > be discouraged after reading Klemp's book. I agree
                    > that Klemp seems to have a death grip on his power--
                    > he just can't and won't let go of it! : )
                    >
                    > Mish
                    >
                    > p.s. Remember that Don Ginn and Peter Skelsky were
                    > both on the Board of Trustees and helped Klemp to
                    > boot Darwin. These guys were at least 7th initiates
                    > 25 years ago, so how embarrassing it must be to them that
                    > it is taking so long for the godman Klemp to train them!
                    > Either they are slow learners or Klemp is, as we know,
                    > incompetent and a fraud--Klemp has none of the powers he
                    > claims! Well, stupidity does abound in eckankar for sure!
                    >
                    > ################################
                    >
                    > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                    > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hi Mish,
                    > > Excellent post! On the other hand... the more I think
                    > > about it... perhaps Don will take the place of Peter
                    > > Skelsky and Peter will become the next LEM.
                    > >
                    > > Isn't it interesting that Klemp, at the 1983 H.I. Meeting,
                    > > said that he would be the LEM/Mahanta for 10 to 20
                    > > years in order to complete his mission. And, HK boasted
                    > > that unlike Darwin he would Let Go of the Rod of ECK
                    > > Power before it burned him and affected his health.
                    > >
                    > > Actually, I didn't see where the "Rod" had "burned" DG
                    > > and, therefore, supposedly affected his health. HK and
                    > > the Board of Trustees are the ones that burned DG!
                    > >
                    > > Anyway, Klemp has held onto the Rod of ECK Power
                    > > with a death grip, and has gone way beyond the 20
                    > > years promised to complete his mission (of building
                    > > structures).
                    > >
                    > > What should have been Klemp's mission? Isn't the real
                    > > mission of a Mahanta: To take MORE Souls into the HIGHEST
                    > > Planes of the Sugmad; To do this more directly or FASTER
                    > > than any other religion or spiritual path could; To set
                    > > Souls FREE, thus, they too become MASTERS?!
                    > >
                    > > Instead, Klemp slowed Initiations down, and told ECKists
                    > > that he would! Why did he Not Speed these up at some
                    > > point? Look at the long-time 7th initiates that have been
                    > > 7ths... for 20 plus years! What's with that? Why aren't
                    > > there more 8ths? I know that there are 9ths... including
                    > > Joan! Why the Glass Ceiling for long-time 7ths and former
                    > > RESAs? What does Klemp fear, or is this another effect
                    > > from Not having Let Go (of the Rod) when he should have?!
                    > >
                    > > Yes, Klemp was burned a long time ago when one looks
                    > > at his EMR problems beginning around 1990. Look at
                    > > his health problems of the last few years! So, I guess
                    > > his reasoning is, still, that his replacement wasn't ready.
                    > > Is that the way things are supposed to work in Eckankar?
                    > >
                    > > A replacement is ready when the need arises just like
                    > > when the chela is ready the Master will appear. Klemp
                    > > can tell chelas anything at anytime and chelas will accept
                    > > it because if they can't then something must be wrong
                    > > with them. The possibility can never exist that something
                    > > is wrong with Klemp or that he is lying. Yet, didn't HK
                    > > say that Twitchell 'twisted facts?' And, Marman said that
                    > > Twitchell used half-truths while Rich (another ECKist)
                    > > claims that PT plagarized 7% of his works! Didn't DG
                    > > "fall" from Grace? It's obvious that Klemp had fallen long
                    > > ago... circa 1990 perhaps?! The truth does have a bite
                    > > to it at times and this is why people will deny it for as
                    > > long as they can. This is why HK wants ECKists to "imagine"
                    > > that everything is fine with his leadership. The mind is
                    > > very powerful... just look at what it can do when under
                    > > a concentrated focus... like with hypnosis.
                    > >
                    > > So why do ECKists believe Klemp's version of truth? it's
                    > > because they fear the real truth that he's a fraud. What
                    > > else do they have to believe in? Eckankar is their life...
                    > > their crutch... they think. But there is much more! And
                    > > one can only discover this when they have Let Go...
                    > > Break the Chains and stand in a clear new light as a free
                    > > Soul.
                    > >
                    > > However, and on the other hand, after the fiasco with
                    > > Darwin one would think that ECKists could handle the
                    > > truth. And, wouldn't Klemp want to show the finances
                    > > to the General Membership in an Annual Report. That
                    > > doesn't happen though does it! Instead, Klemp puts the
                    > > fear of asking questions into chelas because questioning
                    > > his authority on anything will cause a chela to be held back
                    > > on Initiations. Never complain in your IRO or HIRO because
                    > > it will be put into your file at the ESC. "Good" ECKists must
                    > > always practice the "Law of Silence" and "Surrender" their
                    > > ability to think.
                    > >
                    > > So what's all this mean? It means that most ECKists
                    > > really want to see a change in leadership, but can't say
                    > > so. Klemp hasn't done anything except to create more
                    > > structures and write a ton of worthless books. Why are
                    > > these books worthless? Because the "spiritual" message
                    > > is way too simple, of lower consciousness, and is redundant
                    > > because one can find similar books everywhere and by
                    > > other secular or religious writers. Besides, these books
                    > > of Klemp's are only directed to the uninitiated public or
                    > > to the vast number of simple-minded chelas that don't
                    > > "Get It." These are Klemp's other Money Makers because
                    > > he gets 50% of the royalities!
                    > >
                    > > ECKists have been duped for a long time and for 25
                    > > years by Klemp! Even this narcissist knows that it has
                    > > to end soon. But why travel to Minneapolis to see the
                    > > new LEM when you've seen them before and will see and
                    > > hear from them more in the future? And, if you're a
                    > > True Blue ECKist, of higher consciousness, you should be
                    > > able to project yourself there, or see it on the Inner. Right!
                    > >
                    > > Prometheus
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Mish wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Hi, Everyone!
                    > > >
                    > > > When I read Klemp's book "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," I
                    > > > saw this book as a tool Klemp had created to elevate Joan
                    > > > to an eck master, and I still believe that was one of the basic
                    > > > purposes of the book. Klemp thinks he can cleverly insert subtle
                    > > > ideas that when the reader goes back later, can say, oh, yes,
                    > > > it's in there--how could one miss it! LOL! So, it is in "Those
                    > > > Wonderful ECK Masters" that Joan appears in some chelas
                    > > > dreams doing what eck masters are supposed to do, helping
                    > > > chelas to find the mahanta! Also, in the chapter on Kata Daki,
                    > > > Klemp explains how more female eck masters are coming out
                    > > > to be known--he states it is now time! Again, it is time for
                    > > > Joan to be an eck master. . . . Anyway, this is what I saw in
                    > > > the book and I still believe that was Klemp's primary motivation
                    > > > to write the book when he did. I also believe that Klemp was
                    > > > planning to announce some changes in the leadership of
                    > > > eckankar, positioning Joan in a bigger role of power so that
                    > > > she could "officially" assist him in his declining years as
                    > > > master of the universe. Now, I don't have those feelings of
                    > > > a big announcement in that regard coming out publicly to
                    > > > the chelas soon, if ever! I guess the chelas will have to get it
                    > > > on the inner! LOL!
                    > > >
                    > > > Seriously, though, positioning Joan in such a way before the
                    > > > chelas would at the very least give her some clout if Klemp
                    > > > became disabled or dead. I'm sure Klemp is recalling
                    > > > what happened when PT suddenly died and how Gail then
                    > > > selected the next L.E.M. mahanta in a dream and then later
                    > > > married him! Hey, is Don Ginn married??? : )
                    > > >
                    > > > There are big changes coming in the hierarchial structure
                    > > > of the eckankar org--but not sure when it will be announced.
                    > > > Maybe Klemp has decided not to appear so frail for the time
                    > > > being as he continues his scheming to remain where he is
                    > > > in the seat of eck power as long as he can! He's changed his
                    > > > course a little bit for now, so I foresee a very boring up-coming
                    > > > EWWS! It will be pretty much the same old eckancrap!
                    > > >
                    > > > Chelas, I advise that you save your time and money by staying
                    > > > home . . . or if you're truly in the mood to travel, go some
                    > > > place fun and warm for a change! : )
                    > > >
                    > > > Mish
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                    > > > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Hi All,
                    > > > > Yes, it seems that Don might be the next LEM while
                    > > > > Klemp remains the "full" Mahanta. Of course there is,
                    > > > > still, the possibility that Joan is made the Co-LEM
                    > > > > (since a female could only share this position, due to
                    > > > > "their" negative atoms).
                    > > > >
                    > > > > As a "junior" and/or Co-LEM (under the guidance &
                    > > > > supervision of the "full" LEM/Mahanta) Joan could take
                    > > > > over, even more, duties for her husband at the ESC.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Or, Don can be given these duties as a "junior" LEM while
                    > > > > Joan continues her role at the ESC while spying on Don
                    > > > > for HK!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Anyway, it's a win/win for them right!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I wonder... Would Joan be able to take orders from Don,
                    > > > > or will she, only, be obeying the Living ECK... Mahanta
                    > > > > like Marge?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Prometheus
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > > mish wrote:
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > Hi, Liz!
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > It seems this attorney was thinking outside of the box! : ) When we
                    > > > > > close ourselves off from the outside world by joining a cult like
                    > > > > > eckankar, we box ourselves into a small isolated tunnel like place and
                    > > > > > can forget the basic things in life like "your family comes first."
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > Mish
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > Liz wrote:
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > Hi Mish and all,
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > I am surprised too that eckankar doesn't go into further detail, explaining
                    > > > > > how a will should be written so family members can not contest such a
                    > > > > > donation. (or do they?)
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > When I was still a member, my DH and I had wills drawn up through an
                    > > > > > attorney I use for family issues. I questioned how a portion could be left
                    > > > > > to my church. My attorney gave me a funny look and said "your family should
                    > > > > > always come first"! We had an interesting conversation, and in the end I
                    > > > > > didn't leave anything to eckankar. ;-) All it takes is discussing
                    > > > > > something of this nature with an outsider, and they tend to have a much
                    > > > > > better way of putting the important things into perspective.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Liz
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Mish wrote:
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > Here's the exact statement posted by Bob Hepple on the
                    > > > > > California Satsang Society Chela News & Events publication
                    > > > > > regarding raising money for their building fund:
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > "How can I donate? There are many ways that you can donate.
                    > > > > > Enclosed is an envelope and donation form that will allow
                    > > > > > you to receive a tax receipt for your check or credit card
                    > > > > > donation. Also enclosed are two brochures, published by
                    > > > > > ECKANKAR Spiritual Center, that explain how to bequeath
                    > > > > > the California Satsang Society in your will or living trust,
                    > > > > > or make the Society a beneficiary of your retirement,
                    > > > > > pension plan, or life insurance policy."
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > This very plainly states how such cult groups like eckankar go
                    > > > > > after members' money.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > <snip>
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Another disturbing thing is how blatantly eckankar goes after
                    > > > > > members money including pensions, life insurance and other
                    > > > > > money that most people bequeath to surviving family members.
                    > > > > > This shows how callous eckankar is regarding family structure
                    > > > > > and well-being. Eckankar breaks down family ties in order to
                    > > > > > get the family money! But of course that is what all cults are
                    > > > > > after--bleeding chelas dry but making them imagine they are
                    > > > > > getting something in the bargain, a stairway to heaven, perhaps!
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • prometheus_973
                    I was thinking about what Klemp said about Gross holding onto the Rod of ECK Power beyond his time and was, therefore, burned by it. If this is true that
                    Message 9 of 15 , Oct 6, 2007
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                      I was thinking about what Klemp said about Gross
                      holding onto the Rod of ECK Power beyond his time
                      and was, therefore, "burned" by it.

                      If this is true that Gross should have passed the Rod
                      to Klemp in 1980 (or to someone else) can Eckists,
                      then, really blame Gross (for his actions) anymore than
                      they could blame Klemp for slowing their spiritual growth
                      (initiations)? What is more important for ECKists? Fiscal
                      Responsibility, Buildings, or Initiations? I was, mostly,
                      focused on spiritual growth... Initiations!

                      Actually, Klemp has more blame by hanging onto
                      this Power way longer than any 20th Century LEM,
                      and for delaying and limiting initiations. There should
                      be at least 33 9ths, 333 8ths, and 3,333 7ths after
                      25 years of "leadership." Sure, this would make the org
                      very "top heavy" but so what! It should be! Aren't Eckists
                      supposed to be the "cream of the crop?" Why then don't
                      the initiations reflect this? See, this is just one of
                      many reasons why the long-time Eckists want to see
                      Klemp step down.

                      HK restructured the org and moved the headquarters
                      in order to have Total Control over the EK Board of
                      Trustees. The RESA structure is the extended arm of
                      this control.

                      What were viewed as inappropiate actions by Gross
                      were really just the "effects" of hanging onto the Rod
                      beyond his time. DG's rationale and thinking was off
                      balance and askewed. Consideration and understanding
                      are still lacking for this phenomonia of holding onto
                      the "Rod" beyond the time the LEM should. Klemp is
                      still holding a grudge!

                      Even today, the RESA police spy on Eckists with informers
                      as they ferret out those who are Not supposed to even
                      speak Darwin's name! And, let's face it, there will never
                      be discussions of the "positive" elements concerning those
                      10 lost years of EK History. This is extremely strange since
                      most Higher Initiates (6-14) have most of their initiations
                      from those 10 years under Gross!

                      Klemp's chelas, from Oct. 22, 1981, are mostly 4ths and
                      5ths! Let's face it, according to EK Dogma Chelas, H.I.s
                      are Not Established on the SOUL PLANE "until" they have
                      become 6ths!

                      This 6th initiation is the "proof" that they have completed
                      all of the trails and tests for the 5th initiation. I wonder
                      if this was always the case? Or, did Klemp redefine this
                      dogma (with these restrictions) "after" he slowed the
                      initiations down?

                      Therefore, Klemp might want to hold onto his MAHANTA
                      position, until, he can get the majority of "his" Chelas to
                      the 6th initiation. Maybe this is why he slowed initiations
                      down in the first place? Maybe it was used as a ploy, along
                      with building structures, to insure that he would need to
                      be the LEM and/or Mahanta for 25-30 years or longer!

                      Yes, Klemp is very selfish and has done ECK Chelas an
                      even greater injustice than Gross ever did. Klemp's focus
                      has been on the tangible instead of the intangible.

                      Prometheus

                      ***
                      Prometheus wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi Mish,
                      > I just read your post. Good one! Yes, it does seem
                      > like Klemp is taking an awfully long time to "train"
                      > a replacement. HK's "Wonderful" book has
                      > a 2005 copyright and he states it will take him
                      > "several" more years to train someone! A "few"
                      > means 3-4 right? Therefore, "several" would be
                      > 4-5 or more right? Or, is Klemp incompetent at
                      > counting as well? If Klemp is being honest and
                      > is not trying to blind-side his chelas it would seem
                      > that his replacement won't be ready until, at least,
                      > Oct. 22, 2009. However, ECKists must always keep
                      > in mind the Catch-22 rule!
                      >
                      > However, has Klemp ever really been open, honest,
                      > or clear about anything? Hmmmmm. The closest
                      > he came to this was when he had to admit (because
                      > of it being Public Record) that he was locked-up in
                      > a mental institution. However, Klemp then put his
                      > Damage Control Spin on this incident (lemons into
                      > lemonade?) as he typically blamed or found fault with
                      > everyone at the mental health facility except himself.
                      > Re-read it for yourself and see! Klemp has never taken
                      > Responsibility for his harsh words, judgments, or negative
                      > actions and reactions toward others nor has he, ever,
                      > shown any Empathy, tolerance, or compassion. These
                      > are virtures and indicators of a higher Love.
                      >
                      > I challenge ECKists to point out where, in HK's vast
                      > writings, he has Ever Admitted to having made a Mistake,
                      > or of Showning Empathy toward others... especially
                      > to non-ECKists! One can rationalize that it is showing
                      > "tough love" when involving chelas, but how about
                      > with others? And No, it's Not Detachment either! It's
                      > the Catch-22 Mahanta Consciousness Ploy of Denial.
                      > ECKists are stupid and delusional to believe that everything
                      > they are told is true... except when they validate it via
                      > Imagination and with the use of a "charged word!" LOL!
                      > As Below So Above and Vice-Versa?!
                      >
                      > Yes, HK is always pointing the finger and blaming others.
                      > Klemp went to the 1971 ECK Worldwide instead of to his
                      > own father's funeral to be with his mother, brothers, and
                      > sister. Then, HK makes excuses for this insensitive and
                      > narcissistic behaviour by quoting Jesus, in his year 2000
                      > "Autobiography," while Talking About having Love for God.
                      > Then Klemp tells ECKists that they must have a "Loving Heart"
                      > and be an example for others. What a hypocrite!
                      >
                      > BTW- Here's what Klemp had to say on Eckankar.org about
                      > "when" Twitchell first met Rebazar.
                      >
                      > "Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951 in the foothills of the
                      > Himalayas near Darjeeling." [Hmmmm. This Darjee(ling) sounds
                      > like Darji]
                      >
                      > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html
                      >
                      > Therefore, if you believe this crap, Rebazar had from
                      > 1951-1965 to "train" Twitchell for the LEM position.
                      >
                      > Rebazar, during a time when the World's Consciousness
                      > was lower, took 14 years to "train" Twitchell.
                      >
                      > Then, Twitchell had from 1965-1971 to "train" Gross. This
                      > is only 6 years. Maybe it took "less" time to train Darwin
                      > because the World's Consciousness, even due to wars, etc.,
                      > has expanded even more.
                      >
                      > Gross, then, took 10 years to "train" Klemp. Actually,
                      > Gross was going to hand the Rod to Klemp in 1980 after
                      > 9 years, but took an extra year to finish Klemp's "training."
                      >
                      > Here's the score on passing the Rod:
                      >
                      > RT-PT=14 years
                      > PT-DG=6 years
                      > DG-HK=10 years
                      > HK-??=25 years
                      >
                      > Does it look like Klemp has, maybe, held onto his Power
                      > over these EK chelas Way Too Long?
                      >
                      > [BTW-HK's chelas are those First initiated After Oct. 22, 1981.]
                      >
                      > It looks like HK (the most advanced Mahanta ever, he claims)
                      > Should Not have taken more than 15 years to "train" someone,
                      > and that's giving him a lot of "wiggle" room.
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > mish wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hi, All!
                      > >
                      > > What Prometheus wrote here reminded me of something
                      > > Klemp wrote in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters." Prometheus
                      > > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > "Isn't it interesting that Klemp, at the 1983 H.I. Meeting,
                      > > said that he would be the LEM/Mahanta for 10 to 20
                      > > years in order to complete his mission. And, HK boasted
                      > > that unlike Darwin he would Let Go of the Rod of ECK
                      > > Power before it burned him and affected his health.
                      > >
                      > > <snipped>
                      > >
                      > > Anyway, Klemp has held onto the Rod of ECK Power
                      > > with a death grip, and has gone way beyond the 20
                      > > years promised to complete his mission (of building
                      > > structures)."
                      > >
                      > > On pages 235-236, in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters,"
                      > > Klemp answered in a chela's dream "the length of his
                      > > service as the Living ECK Master. How long would he
                      > > serve in that position? Were there others in training?"
                      > >
                      > > Klemp wrote, "The Master assured her that a few
                      > > initiates were indeed in training for leadership in ECK,
                      > > but no one was ready yet to assume the responsibility.
                      > > It might take several years or many more for the first
                      > > one to complete all the tests. Accordingly, the Master
                      > > would continue for another cycle as the Mahanta, the
                      > > Living ECK Master. . . . "
                      > >
                      > > Doesn't sound like Klemp is ready to step down yet,
                      > > and that is why I believe after reading what Klemp wrote
                      > > about Joan in his book, that he was setting the stage
                      > > for her elevating to a position of great assistence to
                      > > the godman! I would think that Don Ginn, Peter Skelsky,
                      > > and the other hopeful "candidates" waiting in the wings
                      > > for their chance to grasp the rod of eck power would
                      > > be discouraged after reading Klemp's book. I agree
                      > > that Klemp seems to have a death grip on his power--
                      > > he just can't and won't let go of it! : )
                      > >
                      > > Mish
                      > >
                      > > p.s. Remember that Don Ginn and Peter Skelsky were
                      > > both on the Board of Trustees and helped Klemp to
                      > > boot Darwin. These guys were at least 7th initiates
                      > > 25 years ago, so how embarrassing it must be to them that
                      > > it is taking so long for the godman Klemp to train them!
                      > > Either they are slow learners or Klemp is, as we know,
                      > > incompetent and a fraud--Klemp has none of the powers he
                      > > claims! Well, stupidity does abound in eckankar for sure!
                      > >
                      > > ################################
                      > >
                      > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                      > > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Hi Mish,
                      > > > Excellent post! On the other hand... the more I think
                      > > > about it... perhaps Don will take the place of Peter
                      > > > Skelsky and Peter will become the next LEM.
                      > > >
                      > > > Isn't it interesting that Klemp, at the 1983 H.I. Meeting,
                      > > > said that he would be the LEM/Mahanta for 10 to 20
                      > > > years in order to complete his mission. And, HK boasted
                      > > > that unlike Darwin he would Let Go of the Rod of ECK
                      > > > Power before it burned him and affected his health.
                      > > >
                      > > > Actually, I didn't see where the "Rod" had "burned" DG
                      > > > and, therefore, supposedly affected his health. HK and
                      > > > the Board of Trustees are the ones that burned DG!
                      > > >
                      > > > Anyway, Klemp has held onto the Rod of ECK Power
                      > > > with a death grip, and has gone way beyond the 20
                      > > > years promised to complete his mission (of building
                      > > > structures).
                      > > >
                      > > > What should have been Klemp's mission? Isn't the real
                      > > > mission of a Mahanta: To take MORE Souls into the HIGHEST
                      > > > Planes of the Sugmad; To do this more directly or FASTER
                      > > > than any other religion or spiritual path could; To set
                      > > > Souls FREE, thus, they too become MASTERS?!
                      > > >
                      > > > Instead, Klemp slowed Initiations down, and told ECKists
                      > > > that he would! Why did he Not Speed these up at some
                      > > > point? Look at the long-time 7th initiates that have been
                      > > > 7ths... for 20 plus years! What's with that? Why aren't
                      > > > there more 8ths? I know that there are 9ths... including
                      > > > Joan! Why the Glass Ceiling for long-time 7ths and former
                      > > > RESAs? What does Klemp fear, or is this another effect
                      > > > from Not having Let Go (of the Rod) when he should have?!
                      > > >
                      > > > Yes, Klemp was burned a long time ago when one looks
                      > > > at his EMR problems beginning around 1990. Look at
                      > > > his health problems of the last few years! So, I guess
                      > > > his reasoning is, still, that his replacement wasn't ready.
                      > > > Is that the way things are supposed to work in Eckankar?
                      > > >
                      > > > A replacement is ready when the need arises just like
                      > > > when the chela is ready the Master will appear. Klemp
                      > > > can tell chelas anything at anytime and chelas will accept
                      > > > it because if they can't then something must be wrong
                      > > > with them. The possibility can never exist that something
                      > > > is wrong with Klemp or that he is lying. Yet, didn't HK
                      > > > say that Twitchell 'twisted facts?' And, Marman said that
                      > > > Twitchell used half-truths while Rich (another ECKist)
                      > > > claims that PT plagarized 7% of his works! Didn't DG
                      > > > "fall" from Grace? It's obvious that Klemp had fallen long
                      > > > ago... circa 1990 perhaps?! The truth does have a bite
                      > > > to it at times and this is why people will deny it for as
                      > > > long as they can. This is why HK wants ECKists to "imagine"
                      > > > that everything is fine with his leadership. The mind is
                      > > > very powerful... just look at what it can do when under
                      > > > a concentrated focus... like with hypnosis.
                      > > >
                      > > > So why do ECKists believe Klemp's version of truth? it's
                      > > > because they fear the real truth that he's a fraud. What
                      > > > else do they have to believe in? Eckankar is their life...
                      > > > their crutch... they think. But there is much more! And
                      > > > one can only discover this when they have Let Go...
                      > > > Break the Chains and stand in a clear new light as a free
                      > > > Soul.
                      > > >
                      > > > However, and on the other hand, after the fiasco with
                      > > > Darwin one would think that ECKists could handle the
                      > > > truth. And, wouldn't Klemp want to show the finances
                      > > > to the General Membership in an Annual Report. That
                      > > > doesn't happen though does it! Instead, Klemp puts the
                      > > > fear of asking questions into chelas because questioning
                      > > > his authority on anything will cause a chela to be held back
                      > > > on Initiations. Never complain in your IRO or HIRO because
                      > > > it will be put into your file at the ESC. "Good" ECKists must
                      > > > always practice the "Law of Silence" and "Surrender" their
                      > > > ability to think.
                      > > >
                      > > > So what's all this mean? It means that most ECKists
                      > > > really want to see a change in leadership, but can't say
                      > > > so. Klemp hasn't done anything except to create more
                      > > > structures and write a ton of worthless books. Why are
                      > > > these books worthless? Because the "spiritual" message
                      > > > is way too simple, of lower consciousness, and is redundant
                      > > > because one can find similar books everywhere and by
                      > > > other secular or religious writers. Besides, these books
                      > > > of Klemp's are only directed to the uninitiated public or
                      > > > to the vast number of simple-minded chelas that don't
                      > > > "Get It." These are Klemp's other Money Makers because
                      > > > he gets 50% of the royalities!
                      > > >
                      > > > ECKists have been duped for a long time and for 25
                      > > > years by Klemp! Even this narcissist knows that it has
                      > > > to end soon. But why travel to Minneapolis to see the
                      > > > new LEM when you've seen them before and will see and
                      > > > hear from them more in the future? And, if you're a
                      > > > True Blue ECKist, of higher consciousness, you should be
                      > > > able to project yourself there, or see it on the Inner. Right!
                      > > >
                      > > > Prometheus
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Mish wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Hi, Everyone!
                      > > > >
                      > > > > When I read Klemp's book "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," I
                      > > > > saw this book as a tool Klemp had created to elevate Joan
                      > > > > to an eck master, and I still believe that was one of the basic
                      > > > > purposes of the book. Klemp thinks he can cleverly insert subtle
                      > > > > ideas that when the reader goes back later, can say, oh, yes,
                      > > > > it's in there--how could one miss it! LOL! So, it is in "Those
                      > > > > Wonderful ECK Masters" that Joan appears in some chelas
                      > > > > dreams doing what eck masters are supposed to do, helping
                      > > > > chelas to find the mahanta! Also, in the chapter on Kata Daki,
                      > > > > Klemp explains how more female eck masters are coming out
                      > > > > to be known--he states it is now time! Again, it is time for
                      > > > > Joan to be an eck master. . . . Anyway, this is what I saw in
                      > > > > the book and I still believe that was Klemp's primary motivation
                      > > > > to write the book when he did. I also believe that Klemp was
                      > > > > planning to announce some changes in the leadership of
                      > > > > eckankar, positioning Joan in a bigger role of power so that
                      > > > > she could "officially" assist him in his declining years as
                      > > > > master of the universe. Now, I don't have those feelings of
                      > > > > a big announcement in that regard coming out publicly to
                      > > > > the chelas soon, if ever! I guess the chelas will have to get it
                      > > > > on the inner! LOL!
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Seriously, though, positioning Joan in such a way before the
                      > > > > chelas would at the very least give her some clout if Klemp
                      > > > > became disabled or dead. I'm sure Klemp is recalling
                      > > > > what happened when PT suddenly died and how Gail then
                      > > > > selected the next L.E.M. mahanta in a dream and then later
                      > > > > married him! Hey, is Don Ginn married??? : )
                      > > > >
                      > > > > There are big changes coming in the hierarchial structure
                      > > > > of the eckankar org--but not sure when it will be announced.
                      > > > > Maybe Klemp has decided not to appear so frail for the time
                      > > > > being as he continues his scheming to remain where he is
                      > > > > in the seat of eck power as long as he can! He's changed his
                      > > > > course a little bit for now, so I foresee a very boring up-coming
                      > > > > EWWS! It will be pretty much the same old eckancrap!
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Chelas, I advise that you save your time and money by staying
                      > > > > home . . . or if you're truly in the mood to travel, go some
                      > > > > place fun and warm for a change! : )
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Mish
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                      > > > > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Hi All,
                      > > > > > Yes, it seems that Don might be the next LEM while
                      > > > > > Klemp remains the "full" Mahanta. Of course there is,
                      > > > > > still, the possibility that Joan is made the Co-LEM
                      > > > > > (since a female could only share this position, due to
                      > > > > > "their" negative atoms).
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > As a "junior" and/or Co-LEM (under the guidance &
                      > > > > > supervision of the "full" LEM/Mahanta) Joan could take
                      > > > > > over, even more, duties for her husband at the ESC.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Or, Don can be given these duties as a "junior" LEM while
                      > > > > > Joan continues her role at the ESC while spying on Don
                      > > > > > for HK!
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Anyway, it's a win/win for them right!
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > I wonder... Would Joan be able to take orders from Don,
                      > > > > > or will she, only, be obeying the Living ECK... Mahanta
                      > > > > > like Marge?
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Prometheus
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > > mish wrote:
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Hi, Liz!
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > It seems this attorney was thinking outside of the box! : ) When we
                      > > > > > > close ourselves off from the outside world by joining a cult like
                      > > > > > > eckankar, we box ourselves into a small isolated tunnel like place and
                      > > > > > > can forget the basic things in life like "your family comes first."
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Mish
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Liz wrote:
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Hi Mish and all,
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > I am surprised too that eckankar doesn't go into further detail, explaining
                      > > > > > > how a will should be written so family members can not contest such a
                      > > > > > > donation. (or do they?)
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > When I was still a member, my DH and I had wills drawn up through an
                      > > > > > > attorney I use for family issues. I questioned how a portion could be left
                      > > > > > > to my church. My attorney gave me a funny look and said "your family
                      should
                      > > > > > > always come first"! We had an interesting conversation, and in the end I
                      > > > > > > didn't leave anything to eckankar. ;-) All it takes is discussing
                      > > > > > > something of this nature with an outsider, and they tend to have a much
                      > > > > > > better way of putting the important things into perspective.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Liz
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Mish wrote:
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Here's the exact statement posted by Bob Hepple on the
                      > > > > > > California Satsang Society Chela News & Events publication
                      > > > > > > regarding raising money for their building fund:
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > "How can I donate? There are many ways that you can donate.
                      > > > > > > Enclosed is an envelope and donation form that will allow
                      > > > > > > you to receive a tax receipt for your check or credit card
                      > > > > > > donation. Also enclosed are two brochures, published by
                      > > > > > > ECKANKAR Spiritual Center, that explain how to bequeath
                      > > > > > > the California Satsang Society in your will or living trust,
                      > > > > > > or make the Society a beneficiary of your retirement,
                      > > > > > > pension plan, or life insurance policy."
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > This very plainly states how such cult groups like eckankar go
                      > > > > > > after members' money.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > <snip>
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Another disturbing thing is how blatantly eckankar goes after
                      > > > > > > members money including pensions, life insurance and other
                      > > > > > > money that most people bequeath to surviving family members.
                      > > > > > > This shows how callous eckankar is regarding family structure
                      > > > > > > and well-being. Eckankar breaks down family ties in order to
                      > > > > > > get the family money! But of course that is what all cults are
                      > > > > > > after--bleeding chelas dry but making them imagine they are
                      > > > > > > getting something in the bargain, a stairway to heaven, perhaps!
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • mishmisha9
                      LET S DISCUSS KLEMP MORE! WHAT S WRONG WITH HIM AND ALL HIS FOIBLES AS A SELF-PROCLAIMED GODMAN! IT IS NOT ALL ABOUT TWITCHELL! For me, actually, eckankar is
                      Message 10 of 15 , Oct 6, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        LET'S DISCUSS KLEMP MORE! WHAT'S WRONG WITH
                        HIM AND ALL HIS FOIBLES AS A SELF-PROCLAIMED
                        GODMAN! IT IS NOT ALL ABOUT TWITCHELL!

                        For me, actually, eckankar is just a man-made new
                        age religion. Why and what Twitchell did in creating it
                        can be debated until the cows come home. Everyone
                        interested in this strange little known cult the least
                        little bit takes one side or the other in the debate which
                        basically comes down to how important or insignificant
                        the plagiarisms and lies are to the eckankar teachings.
                        Those who remain in eckankar have chosen to miminalize
                        the fraud that has taken place and are quite confortable
                        to remain in the delusion and illusion of the eck teachings.
                        They support Klemp as he continues the lies and deceptions,
                        keeping silent as he also molds eckankar to fit his
                        narrow-minded, anti-social and narcissistic personality.
                        Many eckists become like him which is not something one
                        should really strive for! : )

                        But to take this to a present day discussion, why do we not,
                        meaning eckists and non-eckists alike debate the leadership
                        of Klemp??? Klemp has been the mahanta/L.E.M. far longer
                        than his predecessors, their years combined. It seems to me
                        that we need to look long and hard at what Klemp has done
                        and is doing since taking the reins of eckankar and shaping it
                        into his creation. To me, what eckankar is today is greatly flawed
                        by Klemp's shifty hands! He is no godman--how can anyone
                        consider such a silly, nerdy looking and odd speaking man a
                        god incarnate? Just looking at him and listening to his stupid
                        talks makes the whole org look ridiculous!! He's a joke and
                        there's nothing special or original about him! LOL!

                        My guess is that many long time eckists are waiting, still
                        waiting, for the winds of change to happen--when Klemp
                        either steps down or is removed from his throne. I believe
                        that many of the true eckists are just waiting for a power
                        shift in leadership which they hope will then bring the outer
                        org in line with what they are feeling/experiencing on their
                        inner! They are hopeful that eckankar will become the
                        religion they have longed for! : )

                        Klemp must fear these patient chelas very much, and thus, he
                        has slowed down the initiations in order to remain in control.
                        It seems this is the true reason for being stingy about the
                        initiations! Klemp is a stingy and fearful little old man--he
                        is no guru or godman! So again I ask, why not discuss Klemp,
                        and let Twitchell be for the most part? Let's get to the heart of
                        the matter which is what Klemp is doing with eckankar! The
                        continuing discussions about how eckankar began and how
                        Twitchell established it, speculating on his motivations, etc.
                        are all distractions from what needs to be analyzed today--
                        that being Harold Klemp and what he has done to eckankar!
                        My gut feeling is that Twitchell would not be happy with what
                        Harold has done to his creation! LOL!

                        BTW, I didn't leave eckankar because of David Lane's book-I
                        haven't read it. I left because of Ford Johnson's "Confessions
                        of a God Seeker." Many eckists left after becoming aware of
                        Ford's book. No need to give Lane all the credit. Others have left
                        because they saw through the veil of illusion--they knew
                        something wasn't right in belonging to the eck cult and they
                        hit the road on their own! There are many reasons and ways
                        that one can wake up to the truth about eckankar . . . and get
                        out! : )

                        Mish

                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                        "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I was thinking about what Klemp said about Gross
                        > holding onto the Rod of ECK Power beyond his time
                        > and was, therefore, "burned" by it.
                        >
                        > If this is true that Gross should have passed the Rod
                        > to Klemp in 1980 (or to someone else) can Eckists,
                        > then, really blame Gross (for his actions) anymore than
                        > they could blame Klemp for slowing their spiritual growth
                        > (initiations)? What is more important for ECKists? Fiscal
                        > Responsibility, Buildings, or Initiations? I was, mostly,
                        > focused on spiritual growth... Initiations!
                        >
                        > Actually, Klemp has more blame by hanging onto
                        > this Power way longer than any 20th Century LEM,
                        > and for delaying and limiting initiations. There should
                        > be at least 33 9ths, 333 8ths, and 3,333 7ths after
                        > 25 years of "leadership." Sure, this would make the org
                        > very "top heavy" but so what! It should be! Aren't Eckists
                        > supposed to be the "cream of the crop?" Why then don't
                        > the initiations reflect this? See, this is just one of
                        > many reasons why the long-time Eckists want to see
                        > Klemp step down.
                        >
                        > HK restructured the org and moved the headquarters
                        > in order to have Total Control over the EK Board of
                        > Trustees. The RESA structure is the extended arm of
                        > this control.
                        >
                        > What were viewed as inappropiate actions by Gross
                        > were really just the "effects" of hanging onto the Rod
                        > beyond his time. DG's rationale and thinking was off
                        > balance and askewed. Consideration and understanding
                        > are still lacking for this phenomonia of holding onto
                        > the "Rod" beyond the time the LEM should. Klemp is
                        > still holding a grudge!
                        >
                        > Even today, the RESA police spy on Eckists with informers
                        > as they ferret out those who are Not supposed to even
                        > speak Darwin's name! And, let's face it, there will never
                        > be discussions of the "positive" elements concerning those
                        > 10 lost years of EK History. This is extremely strange since
                        > most Higher Initiates (6-14) have most of their initiations
                        > from those 10 years under Gross!
                        >
                        > Klemp's chelas, from Oct. 22, 1981, are mostly 4ths and
                        > 5ths! Let's face it, according to EK Dogma Chelas, H.I.s
                        > are Not Established on the SOUL PLANE "until" they have
                        > become 6ths!
                        >
                        > This 6th initiation is the "proof" that they have completed
                        > all of the trails and tests for the 5th initiation. I wonder
                        > if this was always the case? Or, did Klemp redefine this
                        > dogma (with these restrictions) "after" he slowed the
                        > initiations down?
                        >
                        > Therefore, Klemp might want to hold onto his MAHANTA
                        > position, until, he can get the majority of "his" Chelas to
                        > the 6th initiation. Maybe this is why he slowed initiations
                        > down in the first place? Maybe it was used as a ploy, along
                        > with building structures, to insure that he would need to
                        > be the LEM and/or Mahanta for 25-30 years or longer!
                        >
                        > Yes, Klemp is very selfish and has done ECK Chelas an
                        > even greater injustice than Gross ever did. Klemp's focus
                        > has been on the tangible instead of the intangible.
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                        >
                        > ***
                        > Prometheus wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Hi Mish,
                        > > I just read your post. Good one! Yes, it does seem
                        > > like Klemp is taking an awfully long time to "train"
                        > > a replacement. HK's "Wonderful" book has
                        > > a 2005 copyright and he states it will take him
                        > > "several" more years to train someone! A "few"
                        > > means 3-4 right? Therefore, "several" would be
                        > > 4-5 or more right? Or, is Klemp incompetent at
                        > > counting as well? If Klemp is being honest and
                        > > is not trying to blind-side his chelas it would seem
                        > > that his replacement won't be ready until, at least,
                        > > Oct. 22, 2009. However, ECKists must always keep
                        > > in mind the Catch-22 rule!
                        > >
                        > > However, has Klemp ever really been open, honest,
                        > > or clear about anything? Hmmmmm. The closest
                        > > he came to this was when he had to admit (because
                        > > of it being Public Record) that he was locked-up in
                        > > a mental institution. However, Klemp then put his
                        > > Damage Control Spin on this incident (lemons into
                        > > lemonade?) as he typically blamed or found fault with
                        > > everyone at the mental health facility except himself.
                        > > Re-read it for yourself and see! Klemp has never taken
                        > > Responsibility for his harsh words, judgments, or negative
                        > > actions and reactions toward others nor has he, ever,
                        > > shown any Empathy, tolerance, or compassion. These
                        > > are virtures and indicators of a higher Love.
                        > >
                        > > I challenge ECKists to point out where, in HK's vast
                        > > writings, he has Ever Admitted to having made a Mistake,
                        > > or of Showning Empathy toward others... especially
                        > > to non-ECKists! One can rationalize that it is showing
                        > > "tough love" when involving chelas, but how about
                        > > with others? And No, it's Not Detachment either! It's
                        > > the Catch-22 Mahanta Consciousness Ploy of Denial.
                        > > ECKists are stupid and delusional to believe that everything
                        > > they are told is true... except when they validate it via
                        > > Imagination and with the use of a "charged word!" LOL!
                        > > As Below So Above and Vice-Versa?!
                        > >
                        > > Yes, HK is always pointing the finger and blaming others.
                        > > Klemp went to the 1971 ECK Worldwide instead of to his
                        > > own father's funeral to be with his mother, brothers, and
                        > > sister. Then, HK makes excuses for this insensitive and
                        > > narcissistic behaviour by quoting Jesus, in his year 2000
                        > > "Autobiography," while Talking About having Love for God.
                        > > Then Klemp tells ECKists that they must have a "Loving Heart"
                        > > and be an example for others. What a hypocrite!
                        > >
                        > > BTW- Here's what Klemp had to say on Eckankar.org about
                        > > "when" Twitchell first met Rebazar.
                        > >
                        > > "Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951 in the foothills of the
                        > > Himalayas near Darjeeling." [Hmmmm. This Darjee(ling) sounds
                        > > like Darji]
                        > >
                        > > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html
                        > >
                        > > Therefore, if you believe this crap, Rebazar had from
                        > > 1951-1965 to "train" Twitchell for the LEM position.
                        > >
                        > > Rebazar, during a time when the World's Consciousness
                        > > was lower, took 14 years to "train" Twitchell.
                        > >
                        > > Then, Twitchell had from 1965-1971 to "train" Gross. This
                        > > is only 6 years. Maybe it took "less" time to train Darwin
                        > > because the World's Consciousness, even due to wars, etc.,
                        > > has expanded even more.
                        > >
                        > > Gross, then, took 10 years to "train" Klemp. Actually,
                        > > Gross was going to hand the Rod to Klemp in 1980 after
                        > > 9 years, but took an extra year to finish Klemp's "training."
                        > >
                        > > Here's the score on passing the Rod:
                        > >
                        > > RT-PT=14 years
                        > > PT-DG=6 years
                        > > DG-HK=10 years
                        > > HK-??=25 years
                        > >
                        > > Does it look like Klemp has, maybe, held onto his Power
                        > > over these EK chelas Way Too Long?
                        > >
                        > > [BTW-HK's chelas are those First initiated After Oct. 22, 1981.]
                        > >
                        > > It looks like HK (the most advanced Mahanta ever, he claims)
                        > > Should Not have taken more than 15 years to "train" someone,
                        > > and that's giving him a lot of "wiggle" room.
                        > >
                        > > Prometheus
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > mish wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Hi, All!
                        > > >
                        > > > What Prometheus wrote here reminded me of something
                        > > > Klemp wrote in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters." Prometheus
                        > > > wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > "Isn't it interesting that Klemp, at the 1983 H.I. Meeting,
                        > > > said that he would be the LEM/Mahanta for 10 to 20
                        > > > years in order to complete his mission. And, HK boasted
                        > > > that unlike Darwin he would Let Go of the Rod of ECK
                        > > > Power before it burned him and affected his health.
                        > > >
                        > > > <snipped>
                        > > >
                        > > > Anyway, Klemp has held onto the Rod of ECK Power
                        > > > with a death grip, and has gone way beyond the 20
                        > > > years promised to complete his mission (of building
                        > > > structures)."
                        > > >
                        > > > On pages 235-236, in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters,"
                        > > > Klemp answered in a chela's dream "the length of his
                        > > > service as the Living ECK Master. How long would he
                        > > > serve in that position? Were there others in training?"
                        > > >
                        > > > Klemp wrote, "The Master assured her that a few
                        > > > initiates were indeed in training for leadership in ECK,
                        > > > but no one was ready yet to assume the responsibility.
                        > > > It might take several years or many more for the first
                        > > > one to complete all the tests. Accordingly, the Master
                        > > > would continue for another cycle as the Mahanta, the
                        > > > Living ECK Master. . . . "
                        > > >
                        > > > Doesn't sound like Klemp is ready to step down yet,
                        > > > and that is why I believe after reading what Klemp wrote
                        > > > about Joan in his book, that he was setting the stage
                        > > > for her elevating to a position of great assistence to
                        > > > the godman! I would think that Don Ginn, Peter Skelsky,
                        > > > and the other hopeful "candidates" waiting in the wings
                        > > > for their chance to grasp the rod of eck power would
                        > > > be discouraged after reading Klemp's book. I agree
                        > > > that Klemp seems to have a death grip on his power--
                        > > > he just can't and won't let go of it! : )
                        > > >
                        > > > Mish
                        > > >
                        > > > p.s. Remember that Don Ginn and Peter Skelsky were
                        > > > both on the Board of Trustees and helped Klemp to
                        > > > boot Darwin. These guys were at least 7th initiates
                        > > > 25 years ago, so how embarrassing it must be to them that
                        > > > it is taking so long for the godman Klemp to train them!
                        > > > Either they are slow learners or Klemp is, as we know,
                        > > > incompetent and a fraud--Klemp has none of the powers he
                        > > > claims! Well, stupidity does abound in eckankar for sure!
                        > > >
                        > > > ################################
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                        > > > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Hi Mish,
                        > > > > Excellent post! On the other hand... the more I think
                        > > > > about it... perhaps Don will take the place of Peter
                        > > > > Skelsky and Peter will become the next LEM.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Isn't it interesting that Klemp, at the 1983 H.I. Meeting,
                        > > > > said that he would be the LEM/Mahanta for 10 to 20
                        > > > > years in order to complete his mission. And, HK boasted
                        > > > > that unlike Darwin he would Let Go of the Rod of ECK
                        > > > > Power before it burned him and affected his health.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Actually, I didn't see where the "Rod" had "burned" DG
                        > > > > and, therefore, supposedly affected his health. HK and
                        > > > > the Board of Trustees are the ones that burned DG!
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Anyway, Klemp has held onto the Rod of ECK Power
                        > > > > with a death grip, and has gone way beyond the 20
                        > > > > years promised to complete his mission (of building
                        > > > > structures).
                        > > > >
                        > > > > What should have been Klemp's mission? Isn't the real
                        > > > > mission of a Mahanta: To take MORE Souls into the HIGHEST
                        > > > > Planes of the Sugmad; To do this more directly or FASTER
                        > > > > than any other religion or spiritual path could; To set
                        > > > > Souls FREE, thus, they too become MASTERS?!
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Instead, Klemp slowed Initiations down, and told ECKists
                        > > > > that he would! Why did he Not Speed these up at some
                        > > > > point? Look at the long-time 7th initiates that have been
                        > > > > 7ths... for 20 plus years! What's with that? Why aren't
                        > > > > there more 8ths? I know that there are 9ths... including
                        > > > > Joan! Why the Glass Ceiling for long-time 7ths and former
                        > > > > RESAs? What does Klemp fear, or is this another effect
                        > > > > from Not having Let Go (of the Rod) when he should have?!
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Yes, Klemp was burned a long time ago when one looks
                        > > > > at his EMR problems beginning around 1990. Look at
                        > > > > his health problems of the last few years! So, I guess
                        > > > > his reasoning is, still, that his replacement wasn't ready.
                        > > > > Is that the way things are supposed to work in Eckankar?
                        > > > >
                        > > > > A replacement is ready when the need arises just like
                        > > > > when the chela is ready the Master will appear. Klemp
                        > > > > can tell chelas anything at anytime and chelas will accept
                        > > > > it because if they can't then something must be wrong
                        > > > > with them. The possibility can never exist that something
                        > > > > is wrong with Klemp or that he is lying. Yet, didn't HK
                        > > > > say that Twitchell 'twisted facts?' And, Marman said that
                        > > > > Twitchell used half-truths while Rich (another ECKist)
                        > > > > claims that PT plagarized 7% of his works! Didn't DG
                        > > > > "fall" from Grace? It's obvious that Klemp had fallen long
                        > > > > ago... circa 1990 perhaps?! The truth does have a bite
                        > > > > to it at times and this is why people will deny it for as
                        > > > > long as they can. This is why HK wants ECKists to "imagine"
                        > > > > that everything is fine with his leadership. The mind is
                        > > > > very powerful... just look at what it can do when under
                        > > > > a concentrated focus... like with hypnosis.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > So why do ECKists believe Klemp's version of truth? it's
                        > > > > because they fear the real truth that he's a fraud. What
                        > > > > else do they have to believe in? Eckankar is their life...
                        > > > > their crutch... they think. But there is much more! And
                        > > > > one can only discover this when they have Let Go...
                        > > > > Break the Chains and stand in a clear new light as a free
                        > > > > Soul.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > However, and on the other hand, after the fiasco with
                        > > > > Darwin one would think that ECKists could handle the
                        > > > > truth. And, wouldn't Klemp want to show the finances
                        > > > > to the General Membership in an Annual Report. That
                        > > > > doesn't happen though does it! Instead, Klemp puts the
                        > > > > fear of asking questions into chelas because questioning
                        > > > > his authority on anything will cause a chela to be held back
                        > > > > on Initiations. Never complain in your IRO or HIRO because
                        > > > > it will be put into your file at the ESC. "Good" ECKists must
                        > > > > always practice the "Law of Silence" and "Surrender" their
                        > > > > ability to think.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > So what's all this mean? It means that most ECKists
                        > > > > really want to see a change in leadership, but can't say
                        > > > > so. Klemp hasn't done anything except to create more
                        > > > > structures and write a ton of worthless books. Why are
                        > > > > these books worthless? Because the "spiritual" message
                        > > > > is way too simple, of lower consciousness, and is redundant
                        > > > > because one can find similar books everywhere and by
                        > > > > other secular or religious writers. Besides, these books
                        > > > > of Klemp's are only directed to the uninitiated public or
                        > > > > to the vast number of simple-minded chelas that don't
                        > > > > "Get It." These are Klemp's other Money Makers because
                        > > > > he gets 50% of the royalities!
                        > > > >
                        > > > > ECKists have been duped for a long time and for 25
                        > > > > years by Klemp! Even this narcissist knows that it has
                        > > > > to end soon. But why travel to Minneapolis to see the
                        > > > > new LEM when you've seen them before and will see and
                        > > > > hear from them more in the future? And, if you're a
                        > > > > True Blue ECKist, of higher consciousness, you should be
                        > > > > able to project yourself there, or see it on the Inner. Right!
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Prometheus
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Mish wrote:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Hi, Everyone!
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > When I read Klemp's book "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," I
                        > > > > > saw this book as a tool Klemp had created to elevate Joan
                        > > > > > to an eck master, and I still believe that was one of the basic
                        > > > > > purposes of the book. Klemp thinks he can cleverly insert subtle
                        > > > > > ideas that when the reader goes back later, can say, oh, yes,
                        > > > > > it's in there--how could one miss it! LOL! So, it is in "Those
                        > > > > > Wonderful ECK Masters" that Joan appears in some chelas
                        > > > > > dreams doing what eck masters are supposed to do, helping
                        > > > > > chelas to find the mahanta! Also, in the chapter on Kata Daki,
                        > > > > > Klemp explains how more female eck masters are coming out
                        > > > > > to be known--he states it is now time! Again, it is time for
                        > > > > > Joan to be an eck master. . . . Anyway, this is what I saw in
                        > > > > > the book and I still believe that was Klemp's primary motivation
                        > > > > > to write the book when he did. I also believe that Klemp was
                        > > > > > planning to announce some changes in the leadership of
                        > > > > > eckankar, positioning Joan in a bigger role of power so that
                        > > > > > she could "officially" assist him in his declining years as
                        > > > > > master of the universe. Now, I don't have those feelings of
                        > > > > > a big announcement in that regard coming out publicly to
                        > > > > > the chelas soon, if ever! I guess the chelas will have to get it
                        > > > > > on the inner! LOL!
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Seriously, though, positioning Joan in such a way before the
                        > > > > > chelas would at the very least give her some clout if Klemp
                        > > > > > became disabled or dead. I'm sure Klemp is recalling
                        > > > > > what happened when PT suddenly died and how Gail then
                        > > > > > selected the next L.E.M. mahanta in a dream and then later
                        > > > > > married him! Hey, is Don Ginn married??? : )
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > There are big changes coming in the hierarchial structure
                        > > > > > of the eckankar org--but not sure when it will be announced.
                        > > > > > Maybe Klemp has decided not to appear so frail for the time
                        > > > > > being as he continues his scheming to remain where he is
                        > > > > > in the seat of eck power as long as he can! He's changed his
                        > > > > > course a little bit for now, so I foresee a very boring up-coming
                        > > > > > EWWS! It will be pretty much the same old eckancrap!
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Chelas, I advise that you save your time and money by staying
                        > > > > > home . . . or if you're truly in the mood to travel, go some
                        > > > > > place fun and warm for a change! : )
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Mish
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                        > > > > > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Hi All,
                        > > > > > > Yes, it seems that Don might be the next LEM while
                        > > > > > > Klemp remains the "full" Mahanta. Of course there is,
                        > > > > > > still, the possibility that Joan is made the Co-LEM
                        > > > > > > (since a female could only share this position, due to
                        > > > > > > "their" negative atoms).
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > As a "junior" and/or Co-LEM (under the guidance &
                        > > > > > > supervision of the "full" LEM/Mahanta) Joan could take
                        > > > > > > over, even more, duties for her husband at the ESC.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Or, Don can be given these duties as a "junior" LEM while
                        > > > > > > Joan continues her role at the ESC while spying on Don
                        > > > > > > for HK!
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Anyway, it's a win/win for them right!
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > I wonder... Would Joan be able to take orders from Don,
                        > > > > > > or will she, only, be obeying the Living ECK... Mahanta
                        > > > > > > like Marge?
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Prometheus
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > mish wrote:
                        > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Hi, Liz!
                        > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > It seems this attorney was thinking outside of the box! : ) When we
                        > > > > > > > close ourselves off from the outside world by joining a cult like
                        > > > > > > > eckankar, we box ourselves into a small isolated tunnel like place and
                        > > > > > > > can forget the basic things in life like "your family comes first."
                        > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Mish
                        > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Liz wrote:
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Hi Mish and all,
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > I am surprised too that eckankar doesn't go into further detail, explaining
                        > > > > > > > how a will should be written so family members can not contest such a
                        > > > > > > > donation. (or do they?)
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > When I was still a member, my DH and I had wills drawn up through an
                        > > > > > > > attorney I use for family issues. I questioned how a portion could be left
                        > > > > > > > to my church. My attorney gave me a funny look and said "your family
                        > should
                        > > > > > > > always come first"! We had an interesting conversation, and in the end I
                        > > > > > > > didn't leave anything to eckankar. ;-) All it takes is discussing
                        > > > > > > > something of this nature with an outsider, and they tend to have a much
                        > > > > > > > better way of putting the important things into perspective.
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Liz
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Mish wrote:
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Here's the exact statement posted by Bob Hepple on the
                        > > > > > > > California Satsang Society Chela News & Events publication
                        > > > > > > > regarding raising money for their building fund:
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > "How can I donate? There are many ways that you can donate.
                        > > > > > > > Enclosed is an envelope and donation form that will allow
                        > > > > > > > you to receive a tax receipt for your check or credit card
                        > > > > > > > donation. Also enclosed are two brochures, published by
                        > > > > > > > ECKANKAR Spiritual Center, that explain how to bequeath
                        > > > > > > > the California Satsang Society in your will or living trust,
                        > > > > > > > or make the Society a beneficiary of your retirement,
                        > > > > > > > pension plan, or life insurance policy."
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > This very plainly states how such cult groups like eckankar go
                        > > > > > > > after members' money.
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > <snip>
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Another disturbing thing is how blatantly eckankar goes after
                        > > > > > > > members money including pensions, life insurance and other
                        > > > > > > > money that most people bequeath to surviving family members.
                        > > > > > > > This shows how callous eckankar is regarding family structure
                        > > > > > > > and well-being. Eckankar breaks down family ties in order to
                        > > > > > > > get the family money! But of course that is what all cults are
                        > > > > > > > after--bleeding chelas dry but making them imagine they are
                        > > > > > > > getting something in the bargain, a stairway to heaven, perhaps!
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • prometheus_973
                        WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO THE MAHANTA CONSCIOUSNESS ??? PT Defined It and Klemp Eliminated This Definition! WHY? Twitchell defines Mahanta Consciousness in his
                        Message 11 of 15 , Oct 7, 2007
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                          WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO THE MAHANTA CONSCIOUSNESS ???
                          PT Defined It and Klemp Eliminated This Definition! WHY?

                          Twitchell defines "Mahanta Consciousness" in his ECKANKAR
                          Dictionary, but Klemp deletes this reference in the EK Lexicon.
                          Look at Klemp's Lexicon and all one can find is the definition
                          for the "Mahanta" 14th Initiate. I thought the Mahanta Con.
                          was supposed to be more impersonal and intangible.

                          PT: "Mahanta Consciousness - The spiritual leader,
                          or Godman; head of ECK;

                          [ME: Well! That's not impersonal or intangible either!
                          No wonder HK makes a distinction between the "full"
                          14th initiate LEM/Mahanta versus the 12th or 13th
                          (in training) Mahanta]

                          all those who come to him in the present age have been
                          with him since their advent into the world;

                          [ME: This must be true for DG's initiates too? Shame
                          on you Mr. Klemp for biting the hand that passed you
                          the "ROD!" Afterall, RT chose PT, and RT/PT/GT
                          chose DG, and DG (out of love) handed you the Rod!]

                          the body of the Mahanta is the ECK, which is the essence
                          of God flowing out from the Ocean of Love and Mercy,
                          sustaining all life and tying together all forms;

                          [ME: the definition for "spiritual hierarchy" lists the Mahanta
                          third and after the ECK. Besides, how can the ECK be limited
                          by a number like 14th Plane? Also, the "ANAMI LOK" is where
                          SUGMAD resides and it's the 10th Plane! (pg. 9, EK Lexicon).
                          How can the Mahanta be 14th Plane when Sugmad resides on
                          the 10th Plane?!]

                          the Vi-Guru, the Light Giver; a state of God Consciousness
                          which is beyond the titles given in religions which designate
                          states of consciousness; the highest of all states of consciousness."

                          [ME: Paul had to one-up Radhasoami ("Path of the Masters") and
                          Ruhani Satsang (Kirpal Singh) in order to be "Top Dog". Afterall,
                          you're not going to Buy or Invest in something if it's not the very
                          "Best" and "Fastest" are you?]

                          ******************************************************************

                          Yes, by now (after 25 years) there should be: 33,333 6th EK Initiates;
                          3,333 7ths; 333 8ths; 33 9ths! Klemp has fallen down on the job
                          and has focused upon building monuments to his ego!

                          Darwin may have been a big spender, but at least he wasn't
                          stingy with initiations, and neither was Paul!

                          So, there will probably be a big buzz at the up and coming
                          2007 EWWS (not to be confused with the EWS, or ECK Worship
                          Service).

                          ECKists will be talking... is this the Year for a Change in
                          Leadership... Finally!!! Will ECKists have a leader that won't
                          be a simpleton or a nerdy looking recluse and an embarrassment
                          to Vahanas?

                          When comparing HK to GW one has to admit that ANY CHANGE
                          would be for the better... even if HK remains as the "full" (FMOC)
                          master-on-campus!

                          Or, will Klemp disapoint Chelas once again with a new ploy
                          (delay tactic) and new distractions (buildings, books, etc.)?

                          Yes, ECKists will be "challenged" by the I-35 Bridge Collapse
                          and the Airlines reducing plane size and customers flying
                          into Minneapolis, but this just puts them into the same boat
                          as others... it's called life! Therefore this is not a "special"
                          event created by the Kal nor a special circumstance (test)
                          for ECKists alone! WAKE UP ECKIES AND LOOK AROUND AT
                          OTHER PEOPLE... THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS YOUR BELIEF!!!

                          Really, ECKists are vain and live in a bubble! Look around
                          and get out of your shells! Don't limit your thinking to ECK
                          Dogma and to EK religious belief that isolates you from life
                          experiences and having compassion and empathy of others.
                          You are no more "special" than any other Soul... and don't
                          think you're more "advanced" because someone has told
                          you so, or trained you to jump though hoops for initiations!

                          WAKE UP TO THE REAL TRUTH! YOU ARE SPIRITUALLY FREE NOW!

                          Prometheus








                          mish wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > LET'S DISCUSS KLEMP MORE! WHAT'S WRONG WITH
                          > HIM AND ALL HIS FOIBLES AS A SELF-PROCLAIMED
                          > GODMAN! IT IS NOT ALL ABOUT TWITCHELL!
                          >
                          > For me, actually, eckankar is just a man-made new
                          > age religion. Why and what Twitchell did in creating it
                          > can be debated until the cows come home. Everyone
                          > interested in this strange little known cult the least
                          > little bit takes one side or the other in the debate which
                          > basically comes down to how important or insignificant
                          > the plagiarisms and lies are to the eckankar teachings.
                          > Those who remain in eckankar have chosen to miminalize
                          > the fraud that has taken place and are quite confortable
                          > to remain in the delusion and illusion of the eck teachings.
                          > They support Klemp as he continues the lies and deceptions,
                          > keeping silent as he also molds eckankar to fit his
                          > narrow-minded, anti-social and narcissistic personality.
                          > Many eckists become like him which is not something one
                          > should really strive for! : )
                          >
                          > But to take this to a present day discussion, why do we not,
                          > meaning eckists and non-eckists alike debate the leadership
                          > of Klemp??? Klemp has been the mahanta/L.E.M. far longer
                          > than his predecessors, their years combined. It seems to me
                          > that we need to look long and hard at what Klemp has done
                          > and is doing since taking the reins of eckankar and shaping it
                          > into his creation. To me, what eckankar is today is greatly flawed
                          > by Klemp's shifty hands! He is no godman--how can anyone
                          > consider such a silly, nerdy looking and odd speaking man a
                          > god incarnate? Just looking at him and listening to his stupid
                          > talks makes the whole org look ridiculous!! He's a joke and
                          > there's nothing special or original about him! LOL!
                          >
                          > My guess is that many long time eckists are waiting, still
                          > waiting, for the winds of change to happen--when Klemp
                          > either steps down or is removed from his throne. I believe
                          > that many of the true eckists are just waiting for a power
                          > shift in leadership which they hope will then bring the outer
                          > org in line with what they are feeling/experiencing on their
                          > inner! They are hopeful that eckankar will become the
                          > religion they have longed for! : )
                          >
                          > Klemp must fear these patient chelas very much, and thus, he
                          > has slowed down the initiations in order to remain in control.
                          > It seems this is the true reason for being stingy about the
                          > initiations! Klemp is a stingy and fearful little old man--he
                          > is no guru or godman! So again I ask, why not discuss Klemp,
                          > and let Twitchell be for the most part? Let's get to the heart of
                          > the matter which is what Klemp is doing with eckankar! The
                          > continuing discussions about how eckankar began and how
                          > Twitchell established it, speculating on his motivations, etc.
                          > are all distractions from what needs to be analyzed today--
                          > that being Harold Klemp and what he has done to eckankar!
                          > My gut feeling is that Twitchell would not be happy with what
                          > Harold has done to his creation! LOL!
                          >
                          > BTW, I didn't leave eckankar because of David Lane's book-I
                          > haven't read it. I left because of Ford Johnson's "Confessions
                          > of a God Seeker." Many eckists left after becoming aware of
                          > Ford's book. No need to give Lane all the credit. Others have left
                          > because they saw through the veil of illusion--they knew
                          > something wasn't right in belonging to the eck cult and they
                          > hit the road on their own! There are many reasons and ways
                          > that one can wake up to the truth about eckankar . . . and get
                          > out! : )
                          >
                          > Mish
                          >
                          > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                          > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > I was thinking about what Klemp said about Gross
                          > > holding onto the Rod of ECK Power beyond his time
                          > > and was, therefore, "burned" by it.
                          > >
                          > > If this is true that Gross should have passed the Rod
                          > > to Klemp in 1980 (or to someone else) can Eckists,
                          > > then, really blame Gross (for his actions) anymore than
                          > > they could blame Klemp for slowing their spiritual growth
                          > > (initiations)? What is more important for ECKists? Fiscal
                          > > Responsibility, Buildings, or Initiations? I was, mostly,
                          > > focused on spiritual growth... Initiations!
                          > >
                          > > Actually, Klemp has more blame by hanging onto
                          > > this Power way longer than any 20th Century LEM,
                          > > and for delaying and limiting initiations. There should
                          > > be at least 33 9ths, 333 8ths, and 3,333 7ths after
                          > > 25 years of "leadership." Sure, this would make the org
                          > > very "top heavy" but so what! It should be! Aren't Eckists
                          > > supposed to be the "cream of the crop?" Why then don't
                          > > the initiations reflect this? See, this is just one of
                          > > many reasons why the long-time Eckists want to see
                          > > Klemp step down.
                          > >
                          > > HK restructured the org and moved the headquarters
                          > > in order to have Total Control over the EK Board of
                          > > Trustees. The RESA structure is the extended arm of
                          > > this control.
                          > >
                          > > What were viewed as inappropiate actions by Gross
                          > > were really just the "effects" of hanging onto the Rod
                          > > beyond his time. DG's rationale and thinking was off
                          > > balance and askewed. Consideration and understanding
                          > > are still lacking for this phenomonia of holding onto
                          > > the "Rod" beyond the time the LEM should. Klemp is
                          > > still holding a grudge!
                          > >
                          > > Even today, the RESA police spy on Eckists with informers
                          > > as they ferret out those who are Not supposed to even
                          > > speak Darwin's name! And, let's face it, there will never
                          > > be discussions of the "positive" elements concerning those
                          > > 10 lost years of EK History. This is extremely strange since
                          > > most Higher Initiates (6-14) have most of their initiations
                          > > from those 10 years under Gross!
                          > >
                          > > Klemp's chelas, from Oct. 22, 1981, are mostly 4ths and
                          > > 5ths! Let's face it, according to EK Dogma Chelas, H.I.s
                          > > are Not Established on the SOUL PLANE "until" they have
                          > > become 6ths!
                          > >
                          > > This 6th initiation is the "proof" that they have completed
                          > > all of the trials and tests for the 5th initiation. I wonder
                          > > if this was always the case? Or, did Klemp redefine this
                          > > dogma (with these restrictions) "after" he slowed the
                          > > initiations down?
                          > >
                          > > Therefore, Klemp might want to hold onto his MAHANTA
                          > > position, until, he can get the majority of "his" Chelas to
                          > > the 6th initiation. Maybe this is why he slowed initiations
                          > > down in the first place? Maybe it was used as a ploy, along
                          > > with building structures, to insure that he would need to
                          > > be the LEM and/or Mahanta for 25-30 years or longer!
                          > >
                          > > Yes, Klemp is very selfish and has done ECK Chelas an
                          > > even greater injustice than Gross ever did. Klemp's focus
                          > > has been on the tangible instead of the intangible.
                          > >
                          > > Prometheus
                        • prometheus_973
                          Wll Don Ginn, or Joan be the new President of the Org? Will Peter Skelsky become the new LEM? Or, will Don be the new LEM? Can Joan, still, be moved in as the
                          Message 12 of 15 , Oct 15, 2007
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                            Wll Don Ginn, or Joan be the new President of the Org?
                            Will Peter Skelsky become the new LEM? Or, will Don be
                            the new LEM? Can Joan, still, be moved in as the Co-LEM
                            without problems? After 25 years it seems like Klemp still
                            has a death-grip on the Rod of (EK) Power! Although, the
                            ROD has "Burned" Klemp for a decade or more, and has
                            affected his health, he has refused to let it go!

                            Of course, in any scenario, Klemp won't give up the Top
                            Dog spot as "FULL" Mahanta [Chief God over the copyrighted
                            materials (words) and property of the Eckankar Corp. in the
                            Lower Planes of KAL]!

                            HK's Lust for Fame and Power has distorted his Soul on every
                            level. The ROD has become Klemp's personal "precious"
                            possession, and should have been LET GO of years ago!

                            When will ECKists see the Truth... that only the weak, fearful,
                            and inexperienced Souls need Masters and Religion, and
                            that those EK initiations are just security blankets and
                            carrots to feed the ego! Soul is its own Master and needs
                            to be Free of Religious Dogma and Group Think!

                            Prometheus



                            Prometheus wrote:
                            >
                            I was thinking about what Klemp said about Gross
                            holding onto the Rod of ECK Power beyond his time
                            and was, therefore, "burned" by it.
                            >
                            If this is true that Gross should have passed the Rod
                            to Klemp in 1980 (or to someone else) can Eckists,
                            then, really blame Gross (for his actions) anymore than
                            they could blame Klemp for slowing their spiritual growth
                            (initiations)? What is more important for ECKists? Fiscal
                            Responsibility, Buildings, or Initiations? I was, mostly,
                            focused on spiritual growth... Initiations!
                            >
                            Actually, Klemp has more blame by hanging onto
                            this Power way longer than any 20th Century LEM,
                            and for delaying and limiting initiations. There should
                            be at least 33 9ths, 333 8ths, and 3,333 7ths after
                            25 years of "leadership." Sure, this would make the org
                            very "top heavy" but so what! It should be! Aren't Eckists
                            supposed to be the "cream of the crop?" Why then don't
                            the initiations reflect this? See, this is just one of
                            many reasons why the long-time Eckists want to see
                            Klemp step down.
                            >
                            HK restructured the org and moved the headquarters
                            in order to have Total Control over the EK Board of
                            Trustees. The RESA structure is the extended arm of
                            this control.
                            >
                            What were viewed as inappropiate actions by Gross
                            were really just the "effects" of hanging onto the Rod
                            beyond his time. DG's rationale and thinking was off
                            balance and askewed. Consideration and understanding
                            are still lacking for this phenomonia of holding onto
                            the "Rod" beyond the time the LEM should. Klemp is
                            still holding a grudge!
                            >
                            Even today, the RESA police spy on Eckists with informers
                            as they ferret out those who are Not supposed to even
                            speak Darwin's name! And, let's face it, there will never
                            be discussions of the "positive" elements concerning those
                            10 lost years of EK History. This is extremely strange since
                            most Higher Initiates (6-14) have most of their initiations
                            from those 10 years under Gross!
                            >
                            Klemp's chelas, from Oct. 22, 1981, are mostly 4ths and
                            5ths! Let's face it, according to EK Dogma Chelas, H.I.s
                            are Not Established on the SOUL PLANE "until" they have
                            become 6ths!
                            >
                            This 6th initiation is the "proof" that they have completed
                            all of the trails and tests for the 5th initiation. I wonder
                            if this was always the case? Or, did Klemp redefine this
                            dogma (with these restrictions) "after" he slowed the
                            initiations down?
                            >
                            Therefore, Klemp might want to hold onto his MAHANTA
                            position, until, he can get the majority of "his" Chelas to
                            the 6th initiation. Maybe this is why he slowed initiations
                            down in the first place? Maybe it was used as a ploy, along
                            with building structures, to insure that he would need to
                            be the LEM and/or Mahanta for 25-30 years or longer!
                            >
                            Yes, Klemp is very selfish and has done ECK Chelas an
                            even greater injustice than Gross ever did. Klemp's focus
                            has been on the tangible instead of the intangible.
                            >
                            > Prometheus
                            >
                            > ***
                            > Prometheus wrote:
                            > >
                            Hi Mish,
                            I just read your post. Good one! Yes, it does seem
                            like Klemp is taking an awfully long time to "train"
                            a replacement. HK's "Wonderful" book has
                            a 2005 copyright and he states it will take him
                            "several" more years to train someone! A "few"
                            means 3-4 right? Therefore, "several" would be
                            4-5 or more right? Or, is Klemp incompetent at
                            counting as well? If Klemp is being honest and
                            is not trying to blind-side his chelas it would seem
                            that his replacement won't be ready until, at least,
                            Oct. 22, 2009. However, ECKists must always keep
                            in mind the Catch-22 rule!
                            > >
                            However, has Klemp ever really been open, honest,
                            or clear about anything? Hmmmmm. The closest
                            he came to this was when he had to admit (because
                            of it being Public Record) that he was locked-up in
                            a mental institution. However, Klemp then put his
                            Damage Control Spin on this incident (lemons into
                            lemonade?) as he typically blamed or found fault with
                            everyone at the mental health facility except himself.
                            Re-read it for yourself and see! Klemp has never taken
                            Responsibility for his harsh words, judgments, or negative
                            actions and reactions toward others nor has he, ever,
                            shown any Empathy, tolerance, or compassion. These
                            are virtures and indicators of a higher Love.
                            > >
                            I challenge ECKists to point out where, in HK's vast
                            writings, he has Ever Admitted to having made a Mistake,
                            or of Showning Empathy toward others... especially
                            to non-ECKists! One can rationalize that it is showing
                            "tough love" when involving chelas, but how about
                            with others? And No, it's Not Detachment either! It's
                            the Catch-22 Mahanta Consciousness Ploy of Denial.
                            ECKists are stupid and delusional and in denial to believe
                            that everything they are told is true... except when they
                            validate it via Imagination and with the use of a "charged
                            word!" LOL! As Below So Above and Vice-Versa?!
                            > >
                            Yes, HK is always pointing the finger and blaming others.
                            Klemp went to the 1971 ECK Worldwide instead of to his
                            own father's funeral to be with his mother, brothers, and
                            sister. Then, HK makes excuses for this insensitive and
                            narcissistic behaviour by quoting Jesus, in his year 2000
                            "Autobiography," while Talking About having Love for God.
                            Then Klemp tells ECKists that they must have a "Loving Heart"
                            and be an example for others. What a hypocrite!
                            > >
                            BTW- Here's what Klemp had to say on Eckankar.org about
                            "when" Twitchell first met Rebazar.
                            > >
                            "Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951 in the foothills of the
                            Himalayas near Darjeeling." [Hmmmm. This Darjee(ling) sounds
                            like Darji]
                            > >
                            http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html
                            > >
                            Therefore, if you believe this crap, Rebazar had from
                            1951-1965 to "train" Twitchell for the LEM position.
                            > >
                            Rebazar, during a time when the World's Consciousness
                            was lower, took 14 years to "train" Twitchell.
                            > >
                            Then, Twitchell had from 1965-1971 to "train" Gross. This
                            is only 6 years. Maybe it took "less" time to train Darwin
                            because the World's Consciousness, even due to wars, etc.,
                            has expanded even more.
                            > >
                            Gross, then, took 10 years to "train" Klemp. Actually,
                            Gross was going to hand the Rod to Klemp in 1980 after
                            9 years, but took an extra year to finish Klemp's "training."
                            > >
                            Here's the score on passing the Rod:
                            > >
                            RT-PT=14 years
                            PT-DG=6 years
                            DG-HK=10 years
                            HK-??=25 years
                            > >
                            Does it look like Klemp has, maybe, held onto his Power
                            over these EK chelas Way Too Long?
                            > >
                            [BTW-HK's chelas are those First initiated After Oct. 22, 1981.]
                            > >
                            It looks like HK (the most advanced Mahanta ever, he claims)
                            Should Not have taken more than 15 years to "train" someone,
                            and that's giving him a lot of "wiggle" room.
                            > >
                            > > Prometheus


                            mish wrote:
                            > > >
                            Hi, All!
                            > > >
                            What Prometheus wrote here reminded me of something
                            Klemp wrote in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters." Prometheus
                            wrote:
                            > > >
                            "Isn't it interesting that Klemp, at the 1983 H.I. Meeting,
                            said that he would be the LEM/Mahanta for 10 to 20
                            years in order to complete his mission. And, HK boasted
                            that unlike Darwin he would Let Go of the Rod of ECK
                            Power before it burned him and affected his health.
                            > > >
                            <snipped>
                            > > >
                            Anyway, Klemp has held onto the Rod of ECK Power
                            with a death grip, and has gone way beyond the 20
                            years promised to complete his mission (of building
                            structures)."
                            > > >
                            On pages 235-236, in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters,"
                            Klemp answered in a chela's dream "the length of his
                            service as the Living ECK Master. How long would he
                            serve in that position? Were there others in training?"
                            > > >
                            Klemp wrote, "The Master assured her that a few
                            initiates were indeed in training for leadership in ECK,
                            but no one was ready yet to assume the responsibility.
                            It might take several years or many more for the first
                            one to complete all the tests. Accordingly, the Master
                            would continue for another cycle as the Mahanta, the
                            Living ECK Master. . . . "
                            > > >
                            Doesn't sound like Klemp is ready to step down yet,
                            and that is why I believe after reading what Klemp wrote
                            about Joan in his book, that he was setting the stage
                            for her elevating to a position of great assistence to
                            the godman! I would think that Don Ginn, Peter Skelsky,
                            and the other hopeful "candidates" waiting in the wings
                            for their chance to grasp the rod of eck power would
                            be discouraged after reading Klemp's book. I agree
                            that Klemp seems to have a death grip on his power--
                            he just can't and won't let go of it! : )
                            > > >
                            Mish
                            > > >
                            p.s. Remember that Don Ginn and Peter Skelsky were
                            both on the Board of Trustees and helped Klemp to
                            boot Darwin. These guys were at least 7th initiates
                            25 years ago, so how embarrassing it must be to them that
                            it is taking so long for the godman Klemp to train them!
                            Either they are slow learners or Klemp is, as we know,
                            incompetent and a fraud--Klemp has none of the powers he
                            claims! Well, stupidity does abound in eckankar for sure!
                            > > >
                            > > > ################################
                            > > >
                            prometheus wrote:
                            > > > >
                            Hi Mish,
                            Excellent post! On the other hand... the more I think
                            about it... perhaps Don will take the place of Peter
                            Skelsky and Peter will become the next LEM.
                            > > > >
                            Isn't it interesting that Klemp, at the 1983 H.I. Meeting,
                            said that he would be the LEM/Mahanta for 10 to 20
                            years in order to complete his mission. And, HK boasted
                            that unlike Darwin he would Let Go of the Rod of ECK
                            Power before it burned him and affected his health.
                            > > > >
                            Actually, I didn't see where the "Rod" had "burned" DG
                            and, therefore, supposedly affected his health. HK and
                            the Board of Trustees are the ones that burned DG!
                            > > > >
                            Anyway, Klemp has held onto the Rod of ECK Power
                            with a death grip, and has gone way beyond the 20
                            years promised to complete his mission (of building
                            structures).
                            > > > >
                            What should have been Klemp's mission? Isn't the real
                            mission of a Mahanta: To take MORE Souls into the HIGHEST
                            Planes of the Sugmad; To do this more directly or FASTER
                            than any other religion or spiritual path could; To set
                            Souls FREE, thus, they too become MASTERS?!
                            > > > >
                            Instead, Klemp slowed Initiations down, and told ECKists
                            that he would! Why did he Not Speed these up at some
                            point? Look at the long-time 7th initiates that have been
                            7ths... for 20 plus years! What's with that? Why aren't
                            there more 8ths? I know that there are 9ths... including
                            Joan! Why the Glass Ceiling for long-time 7ths and former
                            RESAs? What does Klemp fear, or is this another effect
                            from Not having Let Go (of the Rod) when he should have?!
                            > > > >
                            Yes, Klemp was burned a long time ago when one looks
                            at his EMR problems beginning around 1990. Look at
                            his health problems of the last few years! So, I guess
                            his reasoning is, still, that his replacement wasn't ready.
                            Is that the way things are supposed to work in Eckankar?
                            > > > >
                            A replacement is ready when the need arises just like
                            when the chela is ready the Master will appear. Klemp
                            can tell chelas anything at anytime and chelas will accept
                            it because if they can't then something must be wrong
                            with them. The possibility can never exist that something
                            is wrong with Klemp or that he is lying. Yet, didn't HK
                            say that Twitchell 'twisted facts?' And, Marman said that
                            Twitchell used half-truths while Rich (another ECKist)
                            claims that PT plagarized 7% of his works! Didn't DG
                            "fall" from Grace? It's obvious that Klemp had fallen long
                            ago... circa 1990 perhaps?! The truth does have a bite
                            to it at times and this is why people will deny it for as
                            long as they can. This is why HK wants ECKists to "imagine"
                            that everything is fine with his leadership. The mind is
                            very powerful... just look at what it can do when under
                            a concentrated focus... like with hypnosis.
                            > > > >
                            So why do ECKists believe Klemp's version of truth? it's
                            because they fear the real truth that he's a fraud. What
                            else do they have to believe in? Eckankar is their life...
                            their crutch... they think. But there is much more! And
                            one can only discover this when they have Let Go...
                            Break the Chains and stand in a clear new light as a free
                            Soul.
                            > > > >
                            However, and on the other hand, after the fiasco with
                            Darwin one would think that ECKists could handle the
                            truth. And, wouldn't Klemp want to show the finances
                            to the General Membership in an Annual Report. That
                            doesn't happen though does it! Instead, Klemp puts the
                            fear of asking questions into chelas because questioning
                            his authority on anything will cause a chela to be held back
                            on Initiations. Never complain in your IRO or HIRO because
                            it will be put into your file at the ESC. "Good" ECKists must
                            always practice the "Law of Silence" and "Surrender" their
                            ability to think.
                            > > > >
                            So what's all this mean? It means that most ECKists
                            really want to see a change in leadership, but can't say
                            so. Klemp hasn't done anything except to create more
                            structures and write a ton of worthless books. Why are
                            these books worthless? Because the "spiritual" message
                            is way too simple, of lower consciousness, and is redundant
                            because one can find similar books everywhere and by
                            other secular or religious writers. Besides, these books
                            of Klemp's are only directed to the uninitiated public or
                            to the vast number of simple-minded chelas that don't
                            "Get It." These are Klemp's other Money Makers because
                            he gets 50% of the royalities!
                            > > > >
                            ECKists have been duped for a long time and for 25
                            years by Klemp! Even this narcissist knows that it has
                            to end soon. But why travel to Minneapolis to see the
                            new LEM when you've seen them before and will see and
                            hear from them more in the future? And, if you're a
                            True Blue ECKist, of higher consciousness, you should be
                            able to project yourself there, or see it on the Inner. Right!
                            > > > >
                            Prometheus
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            Mish wrote:
                            > > > > >
                            Hi, Everyone!
                            > > > > >
                            When I read Klemp's book "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," I
                            saw this book as a tool Klemp had created to elevate Joan
                            to an eck master, and I still believe that was one of the basic
                            purposes of the book. Klemp thinks he can cleverly insert subtle
                            ideas that when the reader goes back later, can say, oh, yes,
                            it's in there--how could one miss it! LOL! So, it is in "Those
                            Wonderful ECK Masters" that Joan appears in some chelas
                            dreams doing what eck masters are supposed to do, helping
                            chelas to find the mahanta! Also, in the chapter on Kata Daki,
                            Klemp explains how more female eck masters are coming out
                            to be known--he states it is now time! Again, it is time for
                            Joan to be an eck master. . . . Anyway, this is what I saw in
                            the book and I still believe that was Klemp's primary motivation
                            to write the book when he did. I also believe that Klemp was
                            planning to announce some changes in the leadership of
                            eckankar, positioning Joan in a bigger role of power so that
                            she could "officially" assist him in his declining years as
                            master of the universe. Now, I don't have those feelings of
                            a big announcement in that regard coming out publicly to
                            the chelas soon, if ever! I guess the chelas will have to get it
                            on the inner! LOL!
                            > > > > >
                            Seriously, though, positioning Joan in such a way before the
                            chelas would at the very least give her some clout if Klemp
                            became disabled or dead. I'm sure Klemp is recalling
                            what happened when PT suddenly died and how Gail then
                            selected the next L.E.M. mahanta in a dream and then later
                            married him! Hey, is Don Ginn married??? : )
                            > > > > >
                            There are big changes coming in the hierarchial structure
                            of the eckankar org--but not sure when it will be announced.
                            Maybe Klemp has decided not to appear so frail for the time
                            being as he continues his scheming to remain where he is
                            in the seat of eck power as long as he can! He's changed his
                            course a little bit for now, so I foresee a very boring up-coming
                            EWWS! It will be pretty much the same old eckancrap!
                            > > > > >
                            Chelas, I advise that you save your time and money by staying
                            home . . . or if you're truly in the mood to travel, go some
                            place fun and warm for a change! : )
                            > > > > >
                            Mish
                            > > > > >
                            prometheus_wrote:
                            > > > > > >
                            Hi All,
                            Yes, it seems that Don might be the next LEM while
                            Klemp remains the "full" Mahanta. Of course there is,
                            still, the possibility that Joan is made the Co-LEM
                            (since a female could only share this position, due to
                            "their" negative atoms).
                            > > > > > >
                            As a "junior" and/or Co-LEM (under the guidance &
                            supervision of the "full" LEM/Mahanta) Joan could take
                            > > > > > > over, even more, duties for her husband at the ESC.
                            > > > > > >
                            Or, Don can be given these duties as a "junior" LEM while
                            Joan continues her role at the ESC while spying on Don for HK!
                            > > > > > >
                            Anyway, it's a win/win for them right!
                            > > > > > >
                            I wonder... Would Joan be able to take orders from Don,
                            or will she, only, be obeying the Living ECK... Mahanta
                            like Marge?

                            Prometheus
                          • prometheus_973
                            IMO-The KAL always wants ECKists to attend the ECK Seminars in order to waste their hard earned Vahana money on travel and hotel expenses versus attending on
                            Message 13 of 15 , Oct 16, 2007
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                              IMO-The KAL always wants ECKists to attend the
                              ECK Seminars in order to waste their hard earned
                              Vahana money on travel and hotel expenses versus
                              attending on the "Inner."

                              Isn't this "inner connection" via Soul Travel the
                              "special" attribute that makes Eckankar and ECKists
                              different from others and more "spiritually advanced"
                              from the other religious herds? So, WHY is it necessary
                              to attend on the outer and make a pilgrimage to the
                              Temple on the physical versus the higher inner planes,
                              especially, for H.I.s?

                              WHY is it necessary for H.I.s to even "write" a Monthly
                              Initiate Report (IRO/HIRO) IF there is Always/Constantly
                              an "inner" communication taking place? WHY do ECK
                              H.I.s need this "lower" physical act to demonstrate
                              discipline, and to communicate with their 14th initiate
                              leader?

                              WHY is Klemp attached to Astral Plane emotions,
                              and Physical Plane limitations? Afterall, ECKists not
                              only have to go through metal detectors for Klemp's
                              Saturday night talk (due to his fears), but they have
                              to get their inspiration from outer talks and words
                              just as other religious followers do!

                              So what is it that makes Eckankar "better" than other
                              religions? The proof is in the pudding! Just look at these
                              ECK H.I.s! Or, better yet, just talk to and listen to them!
                              Anyone can memorize an ECK brochure, but what do they
                              really say and how do they really behave away from the
                              seminar? They're no different from anyone else (for good
                              or bad) regardless of initiation level. WHY? Because the
                              EK initiations, except for what's printed on paper, don't
                              exist in reality. Only the imagination can fulfill the hopes
                              and dreams of those who believe. This is WHY and HOW
                              religions work for the masses... including ECKists!

                              Prometheus




                              mish wrote:


                              LET'S DISCUSS KLEMP MORE! WHAT'S WRONG WITH
                              HIM AND ALL HIS FOIBLES AS A SELF-PROCLAIMED
                              GODMAN! IT IS NOT ALL ABOUT TWITCHELL!

                              For me, actually, eckankar is just a man-made new
                              age religion. Why and what Twitchell did in creating it
                              can be debated until the cows come home. Everyone
                              interested in this strange little known cult the least
                              little bit takes one side or the other in the debate which
                              basically comes down to how important or insignificant
                              the plagiarisms and lies are to the eckankar teachings.

                              Those who remain in eckankar have chosen to miminalize
                              the fraud that has taken place and are quite confortable
                              to remain in the delusion and illusion of the eck teachings.
                              They support Klemp as he continues the lies and deceptions,
                              keeping silent as he also molds eckankar to fit his
                              narrow-minded, anti-social and narcissistic personality.
                              Many eckists become like him which is not something one
                              should really strive for! : )

                              But to take this to a present day discussion, why do we not,
                              meaning eckists and non-eckists alike debate the leadership
                              of Klemp??? Klemp has been the mahanta/L.E.M. far longer
                              than his predecessors, their years combined. It seems to me
                              that we need to look long and hard at what Klemp has done
                              and is doing since taking the reins of eckankar and shaping it
                              into his creation. To me, what eckankar is today is greatly flawed
                              by Klemp's shifty hands! He is no godman--how can anyone
                              consider such a silly, nerdy looking and odd speaking man a
                              god incarnate? Just looking at him and listening to his stupid
                              talks makes the whole org look ridiculous!! He's a joke and
                              there's nothing special or original about him! LOL!

                              My guess is that many long time eckists are waiting, still
                              waiting, for the winds of change to happen--when Klemp
                              either steps down or is removed from his throne. I believe
                              that many of the true eckists are just waiting for a power
                              shift in leadership which they hope will then bring the outer
                              org in line with what they are feeling/experiencing on their
                              inner! They are hopeful that eckankar will become the
                              religion they have longed for! : )

                              Klemp must fear these patient chelas very much, and thus, he
                              has slowed down the initiations in order to remain in control.
                              It seems this is the true reason for being stingy about the
                              initiations! Klemp is a stingy and fearful little old man--he
                              is no guru or godman! So again I ask, why not discuss Klemp,
                              and let Twitchell be for the most part? Let's get to the heart of
                              the matter which is what Klemp is doing with eckankar! The
                              continuing discussions about how eckankar began and how
                              Twitchell established it, speculating on his motivations, etc.
                              are all distractions from what needs to be analyzed today--
                              that being Harold Klemp and what he has done to eckankar!
                              My gut feeling is that Twitchell would not be happy with what
                              Harold has done to his creation! LOL!

                              BTW, I didn't leave eckankar because of David Lane's book-I
                              haven't read it. I left because of Ford Johnson's "Confessions
                              of a God Seeker." Many eckists left after becoming aware of
                              Ford's book. No need to give Lane all the credit. Others have left
                              because they saw through the veil of illusion--they knew
                              something wasn't right in belonging to the eck cult and they
                              hit the road on their own! There are many reasons and ways
                              that one can wake up to the truth about eckankar . . . and get
                              out! : )

                              Mish
                            • prometheus_973
                              Does Doug Kunin have a chance at becoming the next LEM? I ve heard that some ESC staffers would like to see someone younger than Don Ginn or Peter Skelsky take
                              Message 14 of 15 , Oct 17, 2007
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                                Does Doug Kunin have a chance at becoming the next LEM?
                                I've heard that some ESC staffers would like to see someone
                                younger than Don Ginn or Peter Skelsky take over as Top Dog.
                                However, many of the female staffers would like to see Joan
                                become the LEM or even Co-LEM! Basically, any action or change
                                by Klemp will be seen as positive. However, IF Joan was
                                made LEM or Co-LEM this could (possibly) open the door
                                for FEMALES to become "FULL" MAHANTAS too!

                                The Mahanta can change the old ECK Dogma/rule via Catch-22!
                                According to PT's explanation Males have "atoms" that are
                                Positive and Females have "atoms" that are Negative and this
                                factor is WHY Female ECKists Cannot be a LEM in these Negative
                                Worlds of KAL.

                                Don't Two Negatives = a Positive?

                                Negative Female Atoms existing in the Lower Negative Worlds
                                of KAL would seem to have a Positive Effect! Maybe this is WHY
                                there are so many wars and so much Negativity! The Male "Positive"
                                Atoms are in opposition with the "Negative" Worlds of KAL.

                                Therefore, PT and the rest of the Male political & religious leaders
                                got it wrong! I wonder... WHY didn't they see this before? Maybe
                                they don't want to Let Go of their power over females? It does
                                make it convenient for any group... to automatically have control
                                over Half of the population!



                                Prometheus




                                Prometheus wrote:
                                >
                                > WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO THE MAHANTA CONSCIOUSNESS ???
                                > PT Defined It and Klemp Eliminated This Definition! WHY?
                                >
                                > Twitchell defines "Mahanta Consciousness" in his ECKANKAR
                                > Dictionary, but Klemp deletes this reference in the EK Lexicon.
                                > Look at Klemp's Lexicon and all one can find is the definition
                                > for the "Mahanta" 14th Initiate. I thought the Mahanta Con.
                                > was supposed to be more impersonal and intangible.
                                >
                                > PT: "Mahanta Consciousness - The spiritual leader,
                                > or Godman; head of ECK;
                                >
                                > [ME: Well! That's not impersonal or intangible either!
                                > No wonder HK makes a distinction between the "full"
                                > 14th initiate LEM/Mahanta versus the 12th or 13th
                                > (in training) Mahanta]
                                >
                                > all those who come to him in the present age have been
                                > with him since their advent into the world;
                                >
                                > [ME: This must be true for DG's initiates too? Shame
                                > on you Mr. Klemp for biting the hand that passed you
                                > the "ROD!" Afterall, RT chose PT, and RT/PT/GT
                                > chose DG, and DG (out of love) handed you the Rod!]
                                >
                                > the body of the Mahanta is the ECK, which is the essence
                                > of God flowing out from the Ocean of Love and Mercy,
                                > sustaining all life and tying together all forms;
                                >
                                > [ME: the definition for "spiritual hierarchy" lists the Mahanta
                                > third and after the ECK. Besides, how can the ECK be limited
                                > by a number like 14th Plane? Also, the "ANAMI LOK" is where
                                > SUGMAD resides and it's the 10th Plane! (pg. 9, EK Lexicon).
                                > How can the Mahanta be 14th Plane when Sugmad resides on
                                > the 10th Plane?!]
                                >
                                > the Vi-Guru, the Light Giver; a state of God Consciousness
                                > which is beyond the titles given in religions which designate
                                > states of consciousness; the highest of all states of consciousness."
                                >
                                > [ME: Paul had to one-up Radhasoami ("Path of the Masters") and
                                > Ruhani Satsang (Kirpal Singh) in order to be "Top Dog". Afterall,
                                > you're not going to Buy or Invest in something if it's not the very
                                > "Best" and "Fastest" are you?]
                                >
                                > ******************************************************************
                                >
                                > Yes, by now (after 25 years) there should be: 33,333 6th EK Initiates;
                                > 3,333 7ths; 333 8ths; 33 9ths! Klemp has fallen down on the job
                                > and has focused upon building monuments to his ego!
                                >
                                > Darwin may have been a big spender, but at least he wasn't
                                > stingy with initiations, and neither was Paul!
                                >
                                > So, there will probably be a big buzz at the up and coming
                                > 2007 EWWS (not to be confused with the EWS, or ECK Worship
                                > Service).
                                >
                                > ECKists will be talking... is this the Year for a Change in
                                > Leadership... Finally!!! Will ECKists have a leader that won't
                                > be a simpleton or a nerdy looking recluse and an embarrassment
                                > to Vahanas?
                                >
                                > When comparing HK to GW one has to admit that ANY CHANGE
                                > would be for the better... even if HK remains as the "full" (FMOC)
                                > master-on-campus!
                                >
                                > Or, will Klemp disapoint Chelas once again with a new ploy
                                > (delay tactic) and new distractions (buildings, books, etc.)?
                                >
                                > Yes, ECKists will be "challenged" by the I-35 Bridge Collapse
                                > and the Airlines reducing plane size and customers flying
                                > into Minneapolis, but this just puts them into the same boat
                                > as others... it's called life! Therefore this is not a "special"
                                > event created by the Kal nor a special circumstance (test)
                                > for ECKists alone! WAKE UP ECKIES AND LOOK AROUND AT
                                > OTHER PEOPLE... THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS YOUR BELIEF!!!
                                >
                                > Really, ECKists are vain and live in a bubble! Look around
                                > and get out of your shells! Don't limit your thinking to ECK
                                > Dogma and to EK religious belief that isolates you from life
                                > experiences and having compassion and empathy of others.
                                > You are no more "special" than any other Soul... and don't
                                > think you're more "advanced" because someone has told
                                > you so, or trained you to jump though hoops for initiations!
                                >
                                > WAKE UP TO THE REAL TRUTH! YOU ARE SPIRITUALLY FREE NOW!
                                >
                                > Prometheus
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > mish wrote:
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > LET'S DISCUSS KLEMP MORE! WHAT'S WRONG WITH
                                > > HIM AND ALL HIS FOIBLES AS A SELF-PROCLAIMED
                                > > GODMAN! IT IS NOT ALL ABOUT TWITCHELL!
                                > >
                                > > For me, actually, eckankar is just a man-made new
                                > > age religion. Why and what Twitchell did in creating it
                                > > can be debated until the cows come home. Everyone
                                > > interested in this strange little known cult the least
                                > > little bit takes one side or the other in the debate which
                                > > basically comes down to how important or insignificant
                                > > the plagiarisms and lies are to the eckankar teachings.
                                > > Those who remain in eckankar have chosen to miminalize
                                > > the fraud that has taken place and are quite confortable
                                > > to remain in the delusion and illusion of the eck teachings.
                                > > They support Klemp as he continues the lies and deceptions,
                                > > keeping silent as he also molds eckankar to fit his
                                > > narrow-minded, anti-social and narcissistic personality.
                                > > Many eckists become like him which is not something one
                                > > should really strive for! : )
                                > >
                                > > But to take this to a present day discussion, why do we not,
                                > > meaning eckists and non-eckists alike debate the leadership
                                > > of Klemp??? Klemp has been the mahanta/L.E.M. far longer
                                > > than his predecessors, their years combined. It seems to me
                                > > that we need to look long and hard at what Klemp has done
                                > > and is doing since taking the reins of eckankar and shaping it
                                > > into his creation. To me, what eckankar is today is greatly flawed
                                > > by Klemp's shifty hands! He is no godman--how can anyone
                                > > consider such a silly, nerdy looking and odd speaking man a
                                > > god incarnate? Just looking at him and listening to his stupid
                                > > talks makes the whole org look ridiculous!! He's a joke and
                                > > there's nothing special or original about him! LOL!
                                > >
                                > > My guess is that many long time eckists are waiting, still
                                > > waiting, for the winds of change to happen--when Klemp
                                > > either steps down or is removed from his throne. I believe
                                > > that many of the true eckists are just waiting for a power
                                > > shift in leadership which they hope will then bring the outer
                                > > org in line with what they are feeling/experiencing on their
                                > > inner! They are hopeful that eckankar will become the
                                > > religion they have longed for! : )
                                > >
                                > > Klemp must fear these patient chelas very much, and thus, he
                                > > has slowed down the initiations in order to remain in control.
                                > > It seems this is the true reason for being stingy about the
                                > > initiations! Klemp is a stingy and fearful little old man--he
                                > > is no guru or godman! So again I ask, why not discuss Klemp,
                                > > and let Twitchell be for the most part? Let's get to the heart of
                                > > the matter which is what Klemp is doing with eckankar! The
                                > > continuing discussions about how eckankar began and how
                                > > Twitchell established it, speculating on his motivations, etc.
                                > > are all distractions from what needs to be analyzed today--
                                > > that being Harold Klemp and what he has done to eckankar!
                                > > My gut feeling is that Twitchell would not be happy with what
                                > > Harold has done to his creation! LOL!
                                > >
                                > > BTW, I didn't leave eckankar because of David Lane's book-I
                                > > haven't read it. I left because of Ford Johnson's "Confessions
                                > > of a God Seeker." Many eckists left after becoming aware of
                                > > Ford's book. No need to give Lane all the credit. Others have left
                                > > because they saw through the veil of illusion--they knew
                                > > something wasn't right in belonging to the eck cult and they
                                > > hit the road on their own! There are many reasons and ways
                                > > that one can wake up to the truth about eckankar . . . and get
                                > > out! : )
                                > >
                                > > Mish
                                > >
                                > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                                > > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > I was thinking about what Klemp said about Gross
                                > > > holding onto the Rod of ECK Power beyond his time
                                > > > and was, therefore, "burned" by it.
                                > > >
                                > > > If this is true that Gross should have passed the Rod
                                > > > to Klemp in 1980 (or to someone else) can Eckists,
                                > > > then, really blame Gross (for his actions) anymore than
                                > > > they could blame Klemp for slowing their spiritual growth
                                > > > (initiations)? What is more important for ECKists? Fiscal
                                > > > Responsibility, Buildings, or Initiations? I was, mostly,
                                > > > focused on spiritual growth... Initiations!
                                > > >
                                > > > Actually, Klemp has more blame by hanging onto
                                > > > this Power way longer than any 20th Century LEM,
                                > > > and for delaying and limiting initiations. There should
                                > > > be at least 33 9ths, 333 8ths, and 3,333 7ths after
                                > > > 25 years of "leadership." Sure, this would make the org
                                > > > very "top heavy" but so what! It should be! Aren't Eckists
                                > > > supposed to be the "cream of the crop?" Why then don't
                                > > > the initiations reflect this? See, this is just one of
                                > > > many reasons why the long-time Eckists want to see
                                > > > Klemp step down.
                                > > >
                                > > > HK restructured the org and moved the headquarters
                                > > > in order to have Total Control over the EK Board of
                                > > > Trustees. The RESA structure is the extended arm of
                                > > > this control.
                                > > >
                                > > > What were viewed as inappropiate actions by Gross
                                > > > were really just the "effects" of hanging onto the Rod
                                > > > beyond his time. DG's rationale and thinking was off
                                > > > balance and askewed. Consideration and understanding
                                > > > are still lacking for this phenomonia of holding onto
                                > > > the "Rod" beyond the time the LEM should. Klemp is
                                > > > still holding a grudge!
                                > > >
                                > > > Even today, the RESA police spy on Eckists with informers
                                > > > as they ferret out those who are Not supposed to even
                                > > > speak Darwin's name! And, let's face it, there will never
                                > > > be discussions of the "positive" elements concerning those
                                > > > 10 lost years of EK History. This is extremely strange since
                                > > > most Higher Initiates (6-14) have most of their initiations
                                > > > from those 10 years under Gross!
                                > > >
                                > > > Klemp's chelas, from Oct. 22, 1981, are mostly 4ths and
                                > > > 5ths! Let's face it, according to EK Dogma Chelas, H.I.s
                                > > > are Not Established on the SOUL PLANE "until" they have
                                > > > become 6ths!
                                > > >
                                > > > This 6th initiation is the "proof" that they have completed
                                > > > all of the trials and tests for the 5th initiation. I wonder
                                > > > if this was always the case? Or, did Klemp redefine this
                                > > > dogma (with these restrictions) "after" he slowed the
                                > > > initiations down?
                                > > >
                                > > > Therefore, Klemp might want to hold onto his MAHANTA
                                > > > position, until, he can get the majority of "his" Chelas to
                                > > > the 6th initiation. Maybe this is why he slowed initiations
                                > > > down in the first place? Maybe it was used as a ploy, along
                                > > > with building structures, to insure that he would need to
                                > > > be the LEM and/or Mahanta for 25-30 years or longer!
                                > > >
                                > > > Yes, Klemp is very selfish and has done ECK Chelas an
                                > > > even greater injustice than Gross ever did. Klemp's focus
                                > > > has been on the tangible instead of the intangible.
                                > > >
                                > > > Prometheus
                                >
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