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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Why "Forever" On 4th Plane Writings

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  • etznab@aol.com
    Dave, I was under the impression that the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, Book Two, corresponded with the Astral Plane. Etznab ************************************** Get a
    Message 1 of 11 , Sep 6, 2007
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      Dave,

         I was under the impression that the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,
      Book Two, corresponded with the Astral Plane.

      Etznab



      **************************************
      Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
    • Steve
      I don t think Harold has written Shariyats 3 and 4 because he has no one to copy from, and can t access the astral plane library to read it there. LOL Steve
      Message 2 of 11 , Sep 8, 2007
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        I don't think Harold has written Shariyats 3 and 4 because he has no
        one to copy from, and can't access the astral plane library to read
        it there. LOL
        Steve

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
        <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi All,
        > In the Sept. 2007 The Mystic World
        > "ASK the MASTER" section there are
        > only two questions listed versus the
        > standard three. What happened to the
        > superstitious/psychic (New Age) "EK
        > Principle of the Threes?" Oops! Was this
        > another oversight by the 3rd fake prophet/
        > black magician!
        >
        > For each answer Klemp, also, directs
        > chelas to read Paul Twitchell's Shariyats.
        > However, why hasn't Klemp written Shariyats
        > 3 & 4?
        >
        > Is Volumn 3 for the Causal Plane and Volumn
        > 4 for the Mental Plane? Did you know that at
        > one time PT had the 5th Initiation represent
        > the Etheric Plane! I forget where I read that,
        > but it's true! Maybe DM knows where this can
        > be found?
        >
        > Therefore, these present two volumns of the
        > Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad (One & Two) being offered
        > to ECKists, and which Klemp is referring to, each
        > represent a Lower Plane of consciousness, AND
        > below the MENTAL PLANE! Right! Please correct
        > me (and explain) if I'm wrong about this!
        >
        > On Ask the Master question #1 HK states:
        >
        > "HOW MANY TIMES would one NEED
        > to READ The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad to get
        > from it ALL the WISDOM it contains?
        > FOREVER. Why? It's because his consciousness
        > keeps changing and expanding."
        >
        > [ME] HK has recently stated that any thought,
        > spoken or written word is NO HIGHER than
        > the MENTAL PLANE.
        >
        > Therefore, Twitchell's Shariyats Books 1 & 2
        > would, also, contain information NO HIGHER
        > than the MENTAL PLANE. Actually doesn't
        > Book One represent the Physical Plane while
        > Book Two represents the Astral Plane?
        >
        > Apparently, Klemp doesn't think that ECKists
        > are very good at connecting the dots, either,
        > or have good memories. Is HK just as brain-
        > washed and mentally impeded as his followers?
        > Does HK suffer from A.A.D.D.? It's apparent
        > that HK's delusional and unbalanced, but how
        > does he rationalize Not being able to write a
        > Shariyat 3 or 4?!
        >
        > Is this when the Catch-22 rule is applied?
        >
        > Is this, also, why Klemp is saying that Chelas
        > NEED to READ the SHARIYATS FOREVER...
        > since he is unable or unwilling to write more
        > "Holy Books?" If it's only Mental Plane at best
        > then why trust that Chelas are able to read
        > these on the INNER! Why not just offer the
        > Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad Book Five etc. on the
        > INNER and have the others available on the
        > OUTER?
        >
        > Why is it necessary for Chelas to read the first
        > two Shariyats FOREVER just because the reader's
        > consciousness is changing? Shouldn't this EK
        > Consciousness and the Higher Initiations take
        > the Chela beyond being stuck reading Twitchell's
        > plagarized and fictional Lower Plane Shariyats
        > FOREVER?!
        >
        > See! This is what makes all Religions KAL TRAPS
        > for their followers... FOREVER! Why don't ECKists
        > see this? Wake up! Klemp doesn't make sense!
        > Are you ECKists that insecure and needy to be
        > stuck in this religious social group forever!
        >
        >
        > On Ask the Master question #2 HK states:
        >
        > "Here I must direct you to The Shariyat-
        > Ki-Sugmad, Book One. Read Chapter 3,
        > 'The Doctrine of the ECK Marg.' ... It Does
        > Not say the Actual Way the First Couples
        > got here. YOU CAN MAKE THAT CONNECTION
        > YOURSELF."
        >
        > [ME] Yep! Just fill-in the blanks again! This is
        > where the Imagination comes in. Klemp says,
        > "You can make that connection yourself." Or,
        > read about ADOM and EDE in HK's Lexicon and
        > see where ECKANKAR teaches/believes in The
        > GARDEN of EDEN "Creation Myth" as well.
        >
        > Actually, Chelas are being told, by Klemp, to
        > make up anything with their IMAGINATIONS.
        > Just make sure that it doesn't challenge Klemp's
        > authority over you like Graham. Or, at least,
        > don't share it with anyone privately or in Satsang!
        >
        > In other words, ECKANKAR is (now more than ever)
        > the Religion of the Imagination versus the Religion
        > of the L&S of God. However, isn't this Lower Plane
        > "God" actually the Kal? That would mean that:
        > ECKANKAR, (is really) the Religion of the Lower Planes
        > of KAL!
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
        > BTW - I was wondering if ECKists destroyed their
        > Dream Journals recorded from 1971-1981? Shouldn't
        > ECKists, also, want to give back those ECK Initiations
        > given out by Darwin Gross (the Black Magician, according
        > to Klemp) as well? When (year?) does Klemp say that
        > Darwin became a Black Magician?
        >
      • prometheus_973
        Hi Etznab, I thought I d reply to your response to David, and to his comments too. Yes! The Shariyat Book Two is supposed to correspond to the Astral Plane.
        Message 3 of 11 , Sep 9, 2007
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          Hi Etznab,
          I thought I'd reply to your response to David,
          and to his comments too.

          Yes! The Shariyat Book Two is supposed to
          correspond to the Astral Plane. So, should
          that Section of the Shariyat be read with
          feeling and emotion, or is it directed to
          influence (via vibration) one's Astral Body?

          It seems strange that the Four Zoas, EK Initiations,
          etc. would be explained in a ASTRAL Section of
          the Shariyat versus a Mental Plane or higher Section.

          Apparently Twitchell did finish several chapters
          of the Shariyat Book Three (Causal Section) before
          his untimely death. Unfortunately, Klemp has been
          unable to complete this "transcription."

          It seems that many ECKists view their own private
          ECKANKAR as individuals rather than with a group
          or mass mentality. Then again, ECKANKAR promotes
          an individual division of consciousness due to
          the separation created by many Initiation Circles
          and the many local RESA Hierarchical positions of
          authority, Co-workership, as an "explorer" or "settler"
          or both!

          And, it was always stated that ECKANKAR was an
          Individual Path and that New ECKists could study
          the discourses on their own at home and Need Not
          go to a center or to meetings. And, that after receiving
          the Second Initiation that Soul Need Not return to the
          Physical Plane for a rebirth.

          There are things about the ECK Teachings that most
          ECKists view as both Literal and Figurative. Many take
          a "Literal View" that ECKANKAR is an "Individual Path."

          ECKists will also accept, literally, "Soul is a Law unto Itself."

          There are other concepts that that ECKists can accept
          literally, but there are also many concepts that ECKists
          see in "figurative" terms. Maybe the Mahanta is seen
          as a figurative concept of Divine personal love. Yes,
          Klemp being the "Mahanta" is a more figurative belief,
          than literal, because the LEM is literally in charge of
          ECKANKAR while the Mahanta is supposed to be a state
          of "Consciousness" that is broad and all encompassing,
          and Loving rather than narrow and exclusive. Except,
          Klemp does his best at excluding others from his exalted
          and private kingdom (of Mahanta Consciousness) where
          he alone is King of the Hill... Forever, or until death do
          us part! Therefore, as LEM HK is King of the outer (for
          ECKists) and as Mahanta HK is King of the Inner.

          Of course, it's obvious to many that it's just a charade.
          It's all acting "as if" this or that is true. Words and imagination
          become real when people need a religious "fix."

          Prometheus

          p.s.
          Announcing your plans is a good way to see God laugh.




          etznab wrote:
          >
          Dave,
          >
          I was under the impression that the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,
          Book Two, corresponded with the Astral Plane.
          >
          Etznab

          David wrote:
          >
          Hello Prometheus,
          I have been reading your site for many months and
          have decided to attempt a post since you have been
          respectful to fellow Eckist Etznab.
          >
          I like the fact that this is a site where "disgruntled
          and frustrated Eckists" can post anonymously.
          Unfortunately, this is one important point that is
          missing within Eckankar because criticism is always
          seen as a negative that must be avoided at all costs.
          >
          I won't attemp to get into a debate or even a back
          and forth discussion as to our differing opinions of
          Eck. Instead I think that I will just share my pov of the
          things that we can come close to agree upon. Truth
          is mostly subjective anyway.
          >
          1.) You make some good points concerning the
          Shariyat Books One and Two and Harold's comments
          in the Mystic World. There are contradictions when
          Harold states that thoughts and words are Mental
          Plane and that Eckists need to read the Eck Holy Books
          (our Bibles) 'forever' in order to comprehend this finite
          Mental Plane knowledge. Harold (the man) sounds and
          acts way too Christian for me to believe in him completely.
          That's why I look to the Mahanta.
          >
          2.) You make another good point with each Section or
          Book of the Shariyat representing a corresponding Plane
          of Consciousness - up to the 12th Plane. It is an unusual
          circumstance when the Second Section of the Shariyat is
          located on the Physical Plane along with the First (earth)
          Section whereas the others, 3rd Causal Plane and 4th Mental
          Plane, Sections of the Shariyat are not located here for us
          to read. Many Eckists I've spoken to have been disappointed
          and puzzled with Harold for not having written or transcribed
          these other two Books since they too are of the lower worlds
          as you have pointed out.
          >
          3.) You make another good point about Eckankar's Creation
          Myth involving the Garden of Eden and Adom and Ede. I admit
          that pointing this out does add to the confusion and doubts
          that many Eckists already have. But, sometimes the Truth does
          hurt because change and the expansion of awareness can
          become uncomfortable until we take out the trash! Truth is
          always the better choice (for me) over fiction and ignorance.
          >
          David
        • etznab@aol.com
          Prometheus, I liked your inclusion, or use of the word figurative . Like with many different things, I tend to believe outer information is only like the tip
          Message 4 of 11 , Sep 9, 2007
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            Prometheus,

               I liked your inclusion, or use of the word "figurative". Like with many
            different things, I tend to believe outer information is only like the tip of
            an iceberg. I imagine the rest, and that which supports the visible, has
            to be discovered through personal experience.

               Much of recorded history, I believe, represents only a fraction of the
            whole truth - the actual truth. Like the tip of an iceberg represents but
            a fraction of that which supports it.

               Sharing my humble opinion.

            Etznab



            **************************************
            See what's new at http://www.aol.com
          • mishmisha9
            Hi, Etznab and everyone! I agree that recorded history is only a fraction of the whole truth. I don t really know how one could possibly write it all down
            Message 5 of 11 , Sep 9, 2007
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              Hi, Etznab and everyone!

              I agree that recorded history is only a fraction of the
              whole truth. I don't really know how one could possibly
              write it all down accurately as it involves too much action
              and reaction all to varying degrees of the participants. I'd
              think one would almost have to record everything from
              moment to moment to get it, but yet even then there is all
              the misunderstandings and lack of fully absorbing what
              goes on at all times and then resulted effects.

              I find it interesting as Prometheus wrote in his post,
              "Apparently Twitchell did finish several chapters
              of the Shariyat Book Three (Causal Section) before
              his untimely death. Unfortunately, Klemp has been
              unable to complete this 'transcription,'"that Klemp
              can't finish the Shariyat 3!! Why is that when
              Klemp has written that he has seen Paul busily writing in
              the Astral Library that Klemp is so incompetent and unable
              to complete this task? If Klemp can see Paul there, why hasn't
              the one master connected to the present master of the
              universe?? Why doesn't old Twitch help Klemp out here? Well,
              let's see, could it all be lies! I think so! LOL! I doubt very
              much if all the research of eckankar history will prove
              otherwise. This one fact, that of Klemp failing to complete
              volume 3 of the Shariyat, is enough damning evidence to
              show that Klemp and eckankar is a fraud!

              Mish


              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
              etznab@... wrote:
              >
              > Prometheus,
              >
              > I liked your inclusion, or use of the word "figurative". Like with many
              > different things, I tend to believe outer information is only like the tip of
              > an iceberg. I imagine the rest, and that which supports the visible, has
              > to be discovered through personal experience.
              >
              > Much of recorded history, I believe, represents only a fraction of the
              > whole truth - the actual truth. Like the tip of an iceberg represents but
              > a fraction of that which supports it.
              >
              > Sharing my humble opinion.
              >
              > Etznab
              >
              >
              > **************************************
              > See what's new at
              > http://www.aol.com
              >
            • prometheus_973
              Here s what Twitchell states (circa June, 1971) about having more than Two Shariyats: It s coming through--the whole history of ECK is coming through now in
              Message 6 of 11 , Sep 10, 2007
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                Here's what Twitchell states (circa June, 1971)
                about having more than Two Shariyats:

                "It's coming through--the whole history of ECK
                is coming through now in The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,
                and this is where all you people are going to be at
                an advantage because you've been at a disadvantage
                before. When somebody asks you about the background
                of ECKANKAR, you never knew what to say, so now
                you're going to have the advantage of it. 'Cause with
                all of that, see, I WRITE BOOKS IN SERIES. I HAVE FOUR
                BOOKS THAT ARE FINISHED NOW; WELL, THE SHARIYAT
                IS A CONTINUED WRITING, BUT I'VE GOT THREE BOOKS
                ACTUALLY. IN THE NEXT SERIES, I'M TAKING UP THE
                MAHANTA AND ALL THE HISTORY OF THE MAHANTA
                BACK TO THE BEGINNING, SO YOU PEOPLE WILL HAVE
                SOMETHING YOU CAN GO BY." [Difficulties Of Becoming
                The Living ECK Master, pages 135-136]

                Isn't it, also, interesting to see the real writing style
                of Twitchell as he explains WHY he is writing the fake
                history for ECKists to use when gathering new members.
                Is it any wonder, then, that PT's plagarisms sound like
                another person... or was that just good editing!

                But, it seems that No Edit was done on this Book and
                these Comments that were written just months prior to
                PT's death.

                Prometheus


                mishmisha wrote:
                > >
                Hi, Etznab and everyone!
                > >
                I agree that recorded history is only a fraction of the
                whole truth. I don't really know how one could possibly
                write it all down accurately as it involves too much action
                and reaction all to varying degrees of the participants. I'd
                think one would almost have to record everything from
                moment to moment to get it, but yet even then there is all
                the misunderstandings and lack of fully absorbing what
                goes on at all times and then resulted effects.
                > >
                I find it interesting as Prometheus wrote in his post,
                "Apparently Twitchell did finish several chapters
                of the Shariyat Book Three (Causal Section) before
                his untimely death. Unfortunately, Klemp has been
                unable to complete this 'transcription,'"that Klemp
                can't finish the Shariyat 3!! Why is that when
                Klemp has written that he has seen Paul busily writing in
                the Astral Library that Klemp is so incompetent and unable
                to complete this task? If Klemp can see Paul there, why hasn't
                the one master connected to the present master of the
                universe?? Why doesn't old Twitch help Klemp out here? Well,
                let's see, could it all be lies! I think so! LOL! I doubt very
                much if all the research of eckankar history will prove
                otherwise. This one fact, that of Klemp failing to complete
                volume 3 of the Shariyat, is enough damning evidence to
                show that Klemp and eckankar is a fraud!
                > >
                Mish
                > >
                > >

                etznab@ wrote:
                > > >
                Prometheus,
                > > >
                I liked your inclusion, or use of the word "figurative". Like with many
                different things, I tend to believe outer information is only like the tip of
                an iceberg. I imagine the rest, and that which supports the visible, has
                to be discovered through personal experience.
                > > >
                Much of recorded history, I believe, represents only a fraction of the
                whole truth - the actual truth. Like the tip of an iceberg represents but
                a fraction of that which supports it.
                > > >
                Sharing my humble opinion.
                > > >
                Etznab
              • prometheus_973
                Twitchell mentions the Shariyat and states he has Four Books that are finished now, and says, I write books in series. PT also says, the Shariyat is a
                Message 7 of 11 , Sep 11, 2007
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                  Twitchell mentions the Shariyat and states he has
                  "Four Books that are finished now," and says, "I
                  write books in series." PT also says, "the Shariyat
                  is a continued writing" and then he backpeddals
                  by stating, "but I've Got Three Books Actually."
                  This shows where Twit has once again made
                  an exaggeration by stating he had Four Shariyats
                  and then states that he "actually" had Three.
                  However, these comments also suggest that PT
                  was planning to write all 12 Sections of the Shariyat.

                  So, once again we have to wonder... What's wrong
                  with Klemp that he can't fill Twitchell's shoes, and
                  has to rely upon Two 37 year old Shariyat Holy
                  Books for ECKANKAR? It's bad enough that these
                  Two Shariyat Sections only represent the first Two
                  Lower Planes, but they are also 37 years old and
                  are not current teachings. Yet Klemp states that
                  ECKists could/should read them "Forever!"

                  BTW- Why doesn't Klemp offer the book, "Difficulties
                  Of Becoming The Living ECK Master?" Klemp should
                  reprint this book or at least make it available in "ebook"
                  form [and unedited] for all ECKists to read... it's EK
                  History! The reason that this will never happen is
                  because Klemp fears the truth and doesn't want to
                  be bothered with the questions that would arise. Why
                  not just keep ECKists in the dark. It's easier this way,
                  and is what a KAL agent would do. Isn't that the purpose
                  of all religion... ECKANKAR included? Keep Soul trapped
                  and distracted with delusional promises by an "All
                  Knowing" leader with "Holy" scripture to back him up.

                  And notice that with religion it's always a male leader
                  that has exclusive power over all but even more power
                  over women. Why has there never been a Female Mahanta
                  when a female can be an ECK Master?! They can't incarnate
                  and handle the lower world physical vibrations when in
                  a female (negative) body?! What a load of Bull SH_T! That
                  only applies to the LEM anyway and Not to a Mahanta,
                  and one Does Not need to be both... correct? ECKists
                  just need to clear the cobwebs out and "think" like they
                  use to. ECKANKAR has more similaries to other religions,
                  especially since Klemp took over, than they would care
                  to admit. Don't let all of those female RESAs and 8th
                  and 9th Initiates fool you. None are as high as a "potential"
                  Male LEM/Mahanta.


                  Prometheus
                  p.s. I liked the U2 9/11 video clip, except, for the
                  end where G.W. makes a heartfelt comment that
                  someone else obviously wrote for him.




                  prometheus wrote:
                  >
                  > Here's what Twitchell states (circa June, 1971)
                  > about having more than Two Shariyats:
                  >
                  > "It's coming through--the whole history of ECK
                  > is coming through now in The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,
                  > and this is where all you people are going to be at
                  > an advantage because you've been at a disadvantage
                  > before. When somebody asks you about the background
                  > of ECKANKAR, you never knew what to say, so now
                  > you're going to have the advantage of it. 'Cause with
                  > all of that, see, I WRITE BOOKS IN SERIES. I HAVE FOUR
                  > BOOKS THAT ARE FINISHED NOW; WELL, THE SHARIYAT
                  > IS A CONTINUED WRITING, BUT I'VE GOT THREE BOOKS
                  > ACTUALLY. IN THE NEXT SERIES, I'M TAKING UP THE
                  > MAHANTA AND ALL THE HISTORY OF THE MAHANTA
                  > BACK TO THE BEGINNING, SO YOU PEOPLE WILL HAVE
                  > SOMETHING YOU CAN GO BY." [Difficulties Of Becoming
                  > The Living ECK Master, pages 135-136]
                  >
                  > Isn't it, also, interesting to see the real writing style
                  > of Twitchell as he explains WHY he is writing the fake
                  > history for ECKists to use when gathering new members.
                  > Is it any wonder, then, that PT's plagarisms sound like
                  > another person... or was that just good editing!
                  >
                  > But, it seems that No Edit was done on this Book and
                  > these Comments that were written just months prior to
                  > PT's death.
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                  >
                  > mishmisha wrote:
                  > > >
                  > Hi, Etznab and everyone!
                  > > >
                  > I agree that recorded history is only a fraction of the
                  > whole truth. I don't really know how one could possibly
                  > write it all down accurately as it involves too much action
                  > and reaction all to varying degrees of the participants. I'd
                  > think one would almost have to record everything from
                  > moment to moment to get it, but yet even then there is all
                  > the misunderstandings and lack of fully absorbing what
                  > goes on at all times and then resulted effects.
                  > > >
                  > I find it interesting as Prometheus wrote in his post,
                  > "Apparently Twitchell did finish several chapters
                  > of the Shariyat Book Three (Causal Section) before
                  > his untimely death. Unfortunately, Klemp has been
                  > unable to complete this 'transcription,'"that Klemp
                  > can't finish the Shariyat 3!! Why is that when
                  > Klemp has written that he has seen Paul busily writing in
                  > the Astral Library that Klemp is so incompetent and unable
                  > to complete this task? If Klemp can see Paul there, why hasn't
                  > the one master connected to the present master of the
                  > universe?? Why doesn't old Twitch help Klemp out here? Well,
                  > let's see, could it all be lies! I think so! LOL! I doubt very
                  > much if all the research of eckankar history will prove
                  > otherwise. This one fact, that of Klemp failing to complete
                  > volume 3 of the Shariyat, is enough damning evidence to
                  > show that Klemp and eckankar is a fraud!
                  > > >
                  > Mish
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > etznab@ wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > Prometheus,
                  > > > >
                  > I liked your inclusion, or use of the word "figurative". Like with many
                  > different things, I tend to believe outer information is only like the tip of
                  > an iceberg. I imagine the rest, and that which supports the visible, has
                  > to be discovered through personal experience.
                  > > > >
                  > Much of recorded history, I believe, represents only a fraction of the
                  > whole truth - the actual truth. Like the tip of an iceberg represents but
                  > a fraction of that which supports it.
                  > > > >
                  > Sharing my humble opinion.
                  > > > >
                  > Etznab
                  >
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