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HK - Still Using PT's Shariyat-Ki-Sugmads

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  • prometheus_973
    Hi All, In the Sept. 2007 The Mystic World ASK the MASTER section there are only two questions listed versus the standard three. What happened to the
    Message 1 of 11 , Sep 4, 2007
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      Hi All,
      In the Sept. 2007 The Mystic World
      "ASK the MASTER" section there are
      only two questions listed versus the
      standard three. What happened to the
      superstitious/psychic (New Age) "EK
      Principle of the Threes?" Oops! Was this
      another oversight by the 3rd fake prophet/
      black magician!

      For each answer Klemp, also, directs
      chelas to read Paul Twitchell's Shariyats.
      However, why hasn't Klemp written Shariyats
      3 & 4?

      Is Volumn 3 for the Causal Plane and Volumn
      4 for the Mental Plane? Did you know that at
      one time PT had the 5th Initiation represent
      the Etheric Plane! I forget where I read that,
      but it's true! Maybe DM knows where this can
      be found?

      Therefore, these present two volumns of the
      Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad (One & Two) being offered
      to ECKists, and which Klemp is referring to, each
      represent a Lower Plane of consciousness, AND
      below the MENTAL PLANE! Right! Please correct
      me (and explain) if I'm wrong about this!

      On Ask the Master question #1 HK states:

      "HOW MANY TIMES would one NEED
      to READ The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad to get
      from it ALL the WISDOM it contains?
      FOREVER. Why? It's because his consciousness
      keeps changing and expanding."

      [ME] HK has recently stated that any thought,
      spoken or written word is NO HIGHER than
      the MENTAL PLANE.

      Therefore, Twitchell's Shariyats Books 1 & 2
      would, also, contain information NO HIGHER
      than the MENTAL PLANE. Actually doesn't
      Book One represent the Physical Plane while
      Book Two represents the Astral Plane?

      Apparently, Klemp doesn't think that ECKists
      are very good at connecting the dots, either,
      or have good memories. Is HK just as brain-
      washed and mentally impeded as his followers?
      Does HK suffer from A.A.D.D.? It's apparent
      that HK's delusional and unbalanced, but how
      does he rationalize Not being able to write a
      Shariyat 3 or 4?!

      Is this when the Catch-22 rule is applied?

      Is this, also, why Klemp is saying that Chelas
      NEED to READ the SHARIYATS FOREVER...
      since he is unable or unwilling to write more
      "Holy Books?" If it's only Mental Plane at best
      then why trust that Chelas are able to read
      these on the INNER! Why not just offer the
      Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad Book Five etc. on the
      INNER and have the others available on the
      OUTER?

      Why is it necessary for Chelas to read the first
      two Shariyats FOREVER just because the reader's
      consciousness is changing? Shouldn't this EK
      Consciousness and the Higher Initiations take
      the Chela beyond being stuck reading Twitchell's
      plagarized and fictional Lower Plane Shariyats
      FOREVER?!

      See! This is what makes all Religions KAL TRAPS
      for their followers... FOREVER! Why don't ECKists
      see this? Wake up! Klemp doesn't make sense!
      Are you ECKists that insecure and needy to be
      stuck in this religious social group forever!


      On Ask the Master question #2 HK states:

      "Here I must direct you to The Shariyat-
      Ki-Sugmad, Book One. Read Chapter 3,
      'The Doctrine of the ECK Marg.' ... It Does
      Not say the Actual Way the First Couples
      got here. YOU CAN MAKE THAT CONNECTION
      YOURSELF."

      [ME] Yep! Just fill-in the blanks again! This is
      where the Imagination comes in. Klemp says,
      "You can make that connection yourself." Or,
      read about ADOM and EDE in HK's Lexicon and
      see where ECKANKAR teaches/believes in The
      GARDEN of EDEN "Creation Myth" as well.

      Actually, Chelas are being told, by Klemp, to
      make up anything with their IMAGINATIONS.
      Just make sure that it doesn't challenge Klemp's
      authority over you like Graham. Or, at least,
      don't share it with anyone privately or in Satsang!

      In other words, ECKANKAR is (now more than ever)
      the Religion of the Imagination versus the Religion
      of the L&S of God. However, isn't this Lower Plane
      "God" actually the Kal? That would mean that:
      ECKANKAR, (is really) the Religion of the Lower Planes
      of KAL!

      Prometheus

      BTW - I was wondering if ECKists destroyed their
      Dream Journals recorded from 1971-1981? Shouldn't
      ECKists, also, want to give back those ECK Initiations
      given out by Darwin Gross (the Black Magician, according
      to Klemp) as well? When (year?) does Klemp say that
      Darwin became a Black Magician?
    • prometheus_973
      Hello All, I just reread the following statement by Klemp and realized something else from a different perspective. Klemp: How many times would one need to
      Message 2 of 11 , Sep 4, 2007
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        Hello All,
        I just reread the following statement by Klemp
        and realized something else from a different
        perspective. Klemp:

        "How many times would one need to read the
        Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad to get from it all the
        [MENTAL PLANE] wisdom it contains?"

        Well, based upon the ECK teachings and Klemp's
        own words EVERYTHING written is NO HIGHER
        in Consciousness than the 4th (Mental) Plane.
        This, too, means that a High Initiate [5th or above]
        would only have to read the Shariyat ONCE versus
        FOREVER in order "to get from it all the wisdom it
        contains... because his consciousness" has already
        changed and expanded beyond the limitations of
        written [Mental Plane] words and thoughts printed
        in physical book form such as with The Shariyat-Ki-
        Sugmad Books One and Two. Therefore, Klemp is wrong again!
        HK just didn't see it from a 360 degree view!

        HK: "HOW MANY TIMES would one NEED
        to READ The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad TO GET
        from it ALL the WISDOM it contains? FOREVER.
        Why? It's because his consciousness keeps
        Changing and Expanding." [my caps]

        Yes Harry! The reason "his consciousness" is "expanding"
        is, also, the reason why he would Not need to read the S-K-S
        Forever... dummy!


        prometheus_wrote:
        >
        > Hi All,
        > In the Sept. 2007 The Mystic World
        > "ASK the MASTER" section there are
        > only two questions listed versus the
        > standard three. What happened to the
        > superstitious/psychic (New Age) "EK
        > Principle of the Threes?" Oops! Was this
        > another oversight by the 3rd fake prophet/
        > black magician!
        >
        > For each answer Klemp, also, directs
        > chelas to read Paul Twitchell's Shariyats.
        > However, why hasn't Klemp written Shariyats
        > 3 & 4?
        >
        > Is Volumn 3 for the Causal Plane and Volumn
        > 4 for the Mental Plane? Did you know that at
        > one time PT had the 5th Initiation represent
        > the Etheric Plane! I forget where I read that,
        > but it's true! Maybe DM knows where this can
        > be found?
        >
        > Therefore, these present two volumns of the
        > Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad (One & Two) being offered
        > to ECKists, and which Klemp is referring to, each
        > represent a Lower Plane of consciousness, AND
        > below the MENTAL PLANE! Right! Please correct
        > me (and explain) if I'm wrong about this!
        >
        > On Ask the Master question #1 HK states:
        >
        > "HOW MANY TIMES would one NEED
        > to READ The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad to get
        > from it ALL the WISDOM it contains?
        > FOREVER. Why? It's because his consciousness
        > keeps changing and expanding."
        >
        > [ME] HK has recently stated that any thought,
        > spoken or written word is NO HIGHER than
        > the MENTAL PLANE.
        >
        > Therefore, Twitchell's Shariyats Books 1 & 2
        > would, also, contain information NO HIGHER
        > than the MENTAL PLANE. Actually doesn't
        > Book One represent the Physical Plane while
        > Book Two represents the Astral Plane?
        >
        > Apparently, Klemp doesn't think that ECKists
        > are very good at connecting the dots, either,
        > or have good memories. Is HK just as brain-
        > washed and mentally impeded as his followers?
        > Does HK suffer from A.A.D.D.? It's apparent
        > that HK's delusional and unbalanced, but how
        > does he rationalize Not being able to write a
        > Shariyat 3 or 4?!
        >
        > Is this when the Catch-22 rule is applied?
        >
        > Is this, also, why Klemp is saying that Chelas
        > NEED to READ the SHARIYATS FOREVER...
        > since he is unable or unwilling to write more
        > "Holy Books?" If it's only Mental Plane at best
        > then why trust that Chelas are able to read
        > these on the INNER! Why not just offer the
        > Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad Book Five etc. on the
        > INNER and have the others available on the
        > OUTER?
        >
        > Why is it necessary for Chelas to read the first
        > two Shariyats FOREVER just because the reader's
        > consciousness is changing? Shouldn't this EK
        > Consciousness and the Higher Initiations take
        > the Chela beyond being stuck reading Twitchell's
        > plagarized and fictional Lower Plane Shariyats
        > FOREVER?!
        >
        > See! This is what makes all Religions KAL TRAPS
        > for their followers... FOREVER! Why don't ECKists
        > see this? Wake up! Klemp doesn't make sense!
        > Are you ECKists that insecure and needy to be
        > stuck in this religious social group forever!
        >
        >
        > On Ask the Master question #2 HK states:
        >
        > "Here I must direct you to The Shariyat-
        > Ki-Sugmad, Book One. Read Chapter 3,
        > 'The Doctrine of the ECK Marg.' ... It Does
        > Not say the Actual Way the First Couples
        > got here. YOU CAN MAKE THAT CONNECTION
        > YOURSELF."
        >
        > [ME] Yep! Just fill-in the blanks again! This is
        > where the Imagination comes in. Klemp says,
        > "You can make that connection yourself." Or,
        > read about ADOM and EDE in HK's Lexicon and
        > see where ECKANKAR teaches/believes in The
        > GARDEN of EDEN "Creation Myth" as well.
        >
        > Actually, Chelas are being told, by Klemp, to
        > make up anything with their IMAGINATIONS.
        > Just make sure that it doesn't challenge Klemp's
        > authority over you like Graham. Or, at least,
        > don't share it with anyone privately or in Satsang!
        >
        > In other words, ECKANKAR is (now more than ever)
        > the Religion of the Imagination versus the Religion
        > of the L&S of God. However, isn't this Lower Plane
        > "God" actually the Kal? That would mean that:
        > ECKANKAR, (is really) the Religion of the Lower Planes
        > of KAL!
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
        > BTW - I was wondering if ECKists destroyed their
        > Dream Journals recorded from 1971-1981? Shouldn't
        > ECKists, also, want to give back those ECK Initiations
        > given out by Darwin Gross (the Black Magician, according
        > to Klemp) as well? When (year?) does Klemp say that
        > Darwin became a Black Magician?
        >
      • prometheus_973
        Hello and welcome to the site! Thank you for your comments. Please feel free to post on other topics as well. Prometheus ... Hello Prometheus, I have been
        Message 3 of 11 , Sep 5, 2007
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          Hello and welcome to the site!
          Thank you for your comments. Please feel free
          to post on other topics as well.

          Prometheus


          David wrote:
          >
          Hello Prometheus,
          I have been reading your site for many months and
          have decided to attempt a post since you have been
          respectful to fellow Eckist Etznab.
          >
          I like the fact that this is a site where "disgruntled
          and frustrated Eckists" can post anonymously.
          Unfortunately, this is one important point that is
          missing within Eckankar because criticism is always
          seen as a negative that must be avoided at all costs.
          >
          I won't attemp to get into a debate or even a back
          and forth discussion as to our differing opinions of
          Eck. Instead I think that I will just share my pov of the
          things that we can come close to agree upon. Truth
          is mostly subjective anyway.
          >
          1.) You make some good points concerning the
          Shariyat Books One and Two and Harold's comments
          in the Mystic World. There are contradictions when
          Harold states that thoughts and words are Mental
          Plane and that Eckists need to read the Eck Holy Books
          (our Bibles) 'forever' in order to comprehend this finite
          Mental Plane knowledge. Harold (the man) sounds and
          acts way too Christian for me to believe in him completely.
          That's why I look to the Mahanta.
          >
          2.) You make another good point with each Section or
          Book of the Shariyat representing a corresponding Plane
          of Consciousness - up to the 12th Plane. It is an unusual
          circumstance when the Second Section of the Shariyat is
          located on the Physical Plane along with the First (earth)
          Section whereas the others, 3rd Causal Plane and 4th Mental
          Plane, Sections of the Shariyat are not located here for us
          to read. Many Eckists I've spoken to have been disappointed
          and puzzled with Harold for not having written or transcribed
          these other two Books since they too are of the lower worlds
          as you have pointed out.
          >
          3.) You make another good point about Eckankar's Creation
          Myth involving the Garden of Eden and Adom and Ede. I admit
          that pointing this out does add to the confusion and doubts
          that many Eckists already have. But, sometimes the Truth does
          hurt because change and the expansion of awareness can
          become uncomfortable until we take out the trash! Truth is
          always the better choice (for me) over fiction and ignorance.
          >
          David


          >Prometheus wrote:
          > >
          > > Hello All,
          > > I just reread the following statement by Klemp
          > > and realized something else from a different
          > > perspective. Klemp:
          > >
          > > "How many times would one need to read the
          > > Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad to get from it all the
          > > [MENTAL PLANE] wisdom it contains?"
          > >
          > > Well, based upon the ECK teachings and Klemp's
          > > own words EVERYTHING written is NO HIGHER
          > > in Consciousness than the 4th (Mental) Plane.
          > > This, too, means that a High Initiate [5th or above]
          > > would only have to read the Shariyat ONCE versus
          > > FOREVER in order "to get from it all the wisdom it
          > > contains... because his consciousness" has already
          > > changed and expanded beyond the limitations of
          > > written [Mental Plane] words and thoughts printed
          > > in physical book form such as with The Shariyat-Ki-
          > > Sugmad Books One and Two. Therefore, Klemp is wrong again!
          > > HK just didn't see it from a 360 degree view!
          > >
          > > HK: "HOW MANY TIMES would one NEED
          > > to READ The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad TO GET
          > > from it ALL the WISDOM it contains? FOREVER.
          > > Why? It's because his consciousness keeps
          > > Changing and Expanding." [my caps]
          > >
          > > Yes Harry! The reason "his consciousness" is "expanding"
          > > is, also, the reason why he would Not need to read the S-K-S
          > > Forever... dummy!
          > >
          > >
          > > prometheus_wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Hi All,
          > > > In the Sept. 2007 The Mystic World
          > > > "ASK the MASTER" section there are
          > > > only two questions listed versus the
          > > > standard three. What happened to the
          > > > superstitious/psychic (New Age) "EK
          > > > Principle of the Threes?" Oops! Was this
          > > > another oversight by the 3rd fake prophet/
          > > > black magician!
          > > >
          > > > For each answer Klemp, also, directs
          > > > chelas to read Paul Twitchell's Shariyats.
          > > > However, why hasn't Klemp written Shariyats
          > > > 3 & 4?
          > > >
          > > > Is Volumn 3 for the Causal Plane and Volumn
          > > > 4 for the Mental Plane? Did you know that at
          > > > one time PT had the 5th Initiation represent
          > > > the Etheric Plane! I forget where I read that,
          > > > but it's true! Maybe DM knows where this can
          > > > be found?
          > > >
          > > > Therefore, these present two volumns of the
          > > > Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad (One & Two) being offered
          > > > to ECKists, and which Klemp is referring to, each
          > > > represent a Lower Plane of consciousness, AND
          > > > below the MENTAL PLANE! Right! Please correct
          > > > me (and explain) if I'm wrong about this!
          > > >
          > > > On Ask the Master question #1 HK states:
          > > >
          > > > "HOW MANY TIMES would one NEED
          > > > to READ The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad to get
          > > > from it ALL the WISDOM it contains?
          > > > FOREVER. Why? It's because his consciousness
          > > > keeps changing and expanding."
          > > >
          > > > [ME] HK has recently stated that any thought,
          > > > spoken or written word is NO HIGHER than
          > > > the MENTAL PLANE.
          > > >
          > > > Therefore, Twitchell's Shariyats Books 1 & 2
          > > > would, also, contain information NO HIGHER
          > > > than the MENTAL PLANE. Actually doesn't
          > > > Book One represent the Physical Plane while
          > > > Book Two represents the Astral Plane?
          > > >
          > > > Apparently, Klemp doesn't think that ECKists
          > > > are very good at connecting the dots, either,
          > > > or have good memories. Is HK just as brain-
          > > > washed and mentally impeded as his followers?
          > > > Does HK suffer from A.A.D.D.? It's apparent
          > > > that HK's delusional and unbalanced, but how
          > > > does he rationalize Not being able to write a
          > > > Shariyat 3 or 4?!
          > > >
          > > > Is this when the Catch-22 rule is applied?
          > > >
          > > > Is this, also, why Klemp is saying that Chelas
          > > > NEED to READ the SHARIYATS FOREVER...
          > > > since he is unable or unwilling to write more
          > > > "Holy Books?" If it's only Mental Plane at best
          > > > then why trust that Chelas are able to read
          > > > these on the INNER! Why not just offer the
          > > > Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad Book Five etc. on the
          > > > INNER and have the others available on the
          > > > OUTER?
          > > >
          > > > Why is it necessary for Chelas to read the first
          > > > two Shariyats FOREVER just because the reader's
          > > > consciousness is changing? Shouldn't this EK
          > > > Consciousness and the Higher Initiations take
          > > > the Chela beyond being stuck reading Twitchell's
          > > > plagarized and fictional Lower Plane Shariyats
          > > > FOREVER?!
          > > >
          > > > See! This is what makes all Religions KAL TRAPS
          > > > for their followers... FOREVER! Why don't ECKists
          > > > see this? Wake up! Klemp doesn't make sense!
          > > > Are you ECKists that insecure and needy to be
          > > > stuck in this religious social group forever!
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > On Ask the Master question #2 HK states:
          > > >
          > > > "Here I must direct you to The Shariyat-
          > > > Ki-Sugmad, Book One. Read Chapter 3,
          > > > 'The Doctrine of the ECK Marg.' ... It Does
          > > > Not say the Actual Way the First Couples
          > > > got here. YOU CAN MAKE THAT CONNECTION
          > > > YOURSELF."
          > > >
          > > > [ME] Yep! Just fill-in the blanks again! This is
          > > > where the Imagination comes in. Klemp says,
          > > > "You can make that connection yourself." Or,
          > > > read about ADOM and EDE in HK's Lexicon and
          > > > see where ECKANKAR teaches/believes in The
          > > > GARDEN of EDEN "Creation Myth" as well.
          > > >
          > > > Actually, Chelas are being told, by Klemp, to
          > > > make up anything with their IMAGINATIONS.
          > > > Just make sure that it doesn't challenge Klemp's
          > > > authority over you like Graham. Or, at least,
          > > > don't share it with anyone privately or in Satsang!
          > > >
          > > > In other words, ECKANKAR is (now more than ever)
          > > > the Religion of the Imagination versus the Religion
          > > > of the L&S of God. However, isn't this Lower Plane
          > > > "God" actually the Kal? That would mean that:
          > > > ECKANKAR, (is really) the Religion of the Lower Planes
          > > > of KAL!
          > > >
          > > > Prometheus
          > > >
          > > > BTW - I was wondering if ECKists destroyed their
          > > > Dream Journals recorded from 1971-1981? Shouldn't
          > > > ECKists, also, want to give back those ECK Initiations
          > > > given out by Darwin Gross (the Black Magician, according
          > > > to Klemp) as well? When (year?) does Klemp say that
          > > > Darwin became a Black Magician?
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • prometheus_973
          Hello All, It is not necessary to join as a member in order to post messages, to read the archives, or to view the Links. However, all postings and members are
          Message 4 of 11 , Sep 6, 2007
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            Hello All,
            It is not necessary to join as a member in order
            to post messages, to read the archives, or to view
            the Links. However, all postings and members are
            moderated, UNTIL, the site owner [me] or the other
            moderators decide to take a site member OFF
            their Moderated Status.

            Once again, this site is mostly for the former members
            of ECKANKAR who want to share their experiences
            with this Religious Cult created in 1965. However,
            it is also for current frustrated and disgruntled EK
            chelas who have the need to speak out.

            Whistle Blowers Unite! Question Authority!

            Those wishing to can remain Anonymous. Creating
            a NEW Yahoo Email Account (ID) is very easy and
            one just needs to look on Yahoo's Main Page for
            this information.

            Prometheus
          • etznab@aol.com
            Dave, I was under the impression that the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, Book Two, corresponded with the Astral Plane. Etznab ************************************** Get a
            Message 5 of 11 , Sep 6, 2007
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              Dave,

                 I was under the impression that the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,
              Book Two, corresponded with the Astral Plane.

              Etznab



              **************************************
              Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
            • Steve
              I don t think Harold has written Shariyats 3 and 4 because he has no one to copy from, and can t access the astral plane library to read it there. LOL Steve
              Message 6 of 11 , Sep 8, 2007
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                I don't think Harold has written Shariyats 3 and 4 because he has no
                one to copy from, and can't access the astral plane library to read
                it there. LOL
                Steve

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi All,
                > In the Sept. 2007 The Mystic World
                > "ASK the MASTER" section there are
                > only two questions listed versus the
                > standard three. What happened to the
                > superstitious/psychic (New Age) "EK
                > Principle of the Threes?" Oops! Was this
                > another oversight by the 3rd fake prophet/
                > black magician!
                >
                > For each answer Klemp, also, directs
                > chelas to read Paul Twitchell's Shariyats.
                > However, why hasn't Klemp written Shariyats
                > 3 & 4?
                >
                > Is Volumn 3 for the Causal Plane and Volumn
                > 4 for the Mental Plane? Did you know that at
                > one time PT had the 5th Initiation represent
                > the Etheric Plane! I forget where I read that,
                > but it's true! Maybe DM knows where this can
                > be found?
                >
                > Therefore, these present two volumns of the
                > Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad (One & Two) being offered
                > to ECKists, and which Klemp is referring to, each
                > represent a Lower Plane of consciousness, AND
                > below the MENTAL PLANE! Right! Please correct
                > me (and explain) if I'm wrong about this!
                >
                > On Ask the Master question #1 HK states:
                >
                > "HOW MANY TIMES would one NEED
                > to READ The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad to get
                > from it ALL the WISDOM it contains?
                > FOREVER. Why? It's because his consciousness
                > keeps changing and expanding."
                >
                > [ME] HK has recently stated that any thought,
                > spoken or written word is NO HIGHER than
                > the MENTAL PLANE.
                >
                > Therefore, Twitchell's Shariyats Books 1 & 2
                > would, also, contain information NO HIGHER
                > than the MENTAL PLANE. Actually doesn't
                > Book One represent the Physical Plane while
                > Book Two represents the Astral Plane?
                >
                > Apparently, Klemp doesn't think that ECKists
                > are very good at connecting the dots, either,
                > or have good memories. Is HK just as brain-
                > washed and mentally impeded as his followers?
                > Does HK suffer from A.A.D.D.? It's apparent
                > that HK's delusional and unbalanced, but how
                > does he rationalize Not being able to write a
                > Shariyat 3 or 4?!
                >
                > Is this when the Catch-22 rule is applied?
                >
                > Is this, also, why Klemp is saying that Chelas
                > NEED to READ the SHARIYATS FOREVER...
                > since he is unable or unwilling to write more
                > "Holy Books?" If it's only Mental Plane at best
                > then why trust that Chelas are able to read
                > these on the INNER! Why not just offer the
                > Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad Book Five etc. on the
                > INNER and have the others available on the
                > OUTER?
                >
                > Why is it necessary for Chelas to read the first
                > two Shariyats FOREVER just because the reader's
                > consciousness is changing? Shouldn't this EK
                > Consciousness and the Higher Initiations take
                > the Chela beyond being stuck reading Twitchell's
                > plagarized and fictional Lower Plane Shariyats
                > FOREVER?!
                >
                > See! This is what makes all Religions KAL TRAPS
                > for their followers... FOREVER! Why don't ECKists
                > see this? Wake up! Klemp doesn't make sense!
                > Are you ECKists that insecure and needy to be
                > stuck in this religious social group forever!
                >
                >
                > On Ask the Master question #2 HK states:
                >
                > "Here I must direct you to The Shariyat-
                > Ki-Sugmad, Book One. Read Chapter 3,
                > 'The Doctrine of the ECK Marg.' ... It Does
                > Not say the Actual Way the First Couples
                > got here. YOU CAN MAKE THAT CONNECTION
                > YOURSELF."
                >
                > [ME] Yep! Just fill-in the blanks again! This is
                > where the Imagination comes in. Klemp says,
                > "You can make that connection yourself." Or,
                > read about ADOM and EDE in HK's Lexicon and
                > see where ECKANKAR teaches/believes in The
                > GARDEN of EDEN "Creation Myth" as well.
                >
                > Actually, Chelas are being told, by Klemp, to
                > make up anything with their IMAGINATIONS.
                > Just make sure that it doesn't challenge Klemp's
                > authority over you like Graham. Or, at least,
                > don't share it with anyone privately or in Satsang!
                >
                > In other words, ECKANKAR is (now more than ever)
                > the Religion of the Imagination versus the Religion
                > of the L&S of God. However, isn't this Lower Plane
                > "God" actually the Kal? That would mean that:
                > ECKANKAR, (is really) the Religion of the Lower Planes
                > of KAL!
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                > BTW - I was wondering if ECKists destroyed their
                > Dream Journals recorded from 1971-1981? Shouldn't
                > ECKists, also, want to give back those ECK Initiations
                > given out by Darwin Gross (the Black Magician, according
                > to Klemp) as well? When (year?) does Klemp say that
                > Darwin became a Black Magician?
                >
              • prometheus_973
                Hi Etznab, I thought I d reply to your response to David, and to his comments too. Yes! The Shariyat Book Two is supposed to correspond to the Astral Plane.
                Message 7 of 11 , Sep 9, 2007
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                  Hi Etznab,
                  I thought I'd reply to your response to David,
                  and to his comments too.

                  Yes! The Shariyat Book Two is supposed to
                  correspond to the Astral Plane. So, should
                  that Section of the Shariyat be read with
                  feeling and emotion, or is it directed to
                  influence (via vibration) one's Astral Body?

                  It seems strange that the Four Zoas, EK Initiations,
                  etc. would be explained in a ASTRAL Section of
                  the Shariyat versus a Mental Plane or higher Section.

                  Apparently Twitchell did finish several chapters
                  of the Shariyat Book Three (Causal Section) before
                  his untimely death. Unfortunately, Klemp has been
                  unable to complete this "transcription."

                  It seems that many ECKists view their own private
                  ECKANKAR as individuals rather than with a group
                  or mass mentality. Then again, ECKANKAR promotes
                  an individual division of consciousness due to
                  the separation created by many Initiation Circles
                  and the many local RESA Hierarchical positions of
                  authority, Co-workership, as an "explorer" or "settler"
                  or both!

                  And, it was always stated that ECKANKAR was an
                  Individual Path and that New ECKists could study
                  the discourses on their own at home and Need Not
                  go to a center or to meetings. And, that after receiving
                  the Second Initiation that Soul Need Not return to the
                  Physical Plane for a rebirth.

                  There are things about the ECK Teachings that most
                  ECKists view as both Literal and Figurative. Many take
                  a "Literal View" that ECKANKAR is an "Individual Path."

                  ECKists will also accept, literally, "Soul is a Law unto Itself."

                  There are other concepts that that ECKists can accept
                  literally, but there are also many concepts that ECKists
                  see in "figurative" terms. Maybe the Mahanta is seen
                  as a figurative concept of Divine personal love. Yes,
                  Klemp being the "Mahanta" is a more figurative belief,
                  than literal, because the LEM is literally in charge of
                  ECKANKAR while the Mahanta is supposed to be a state
                  of "Consciousness" that is broad and all encompassing,
                  and Loving rather than narrow and exclusive. Except,
                  Klemp does his best at excluding others from his exalted
                  and private kingdom (of Mahanta Consciousness) where
                  he alone is King of the Hill... Forever, or until death do
                  us part! Therefore, as LEM HK is King of the outer (for
                  ECKists) and as Mahanta HK is King of the Inner.

                  Of course, it's obvious to many that it's just a charade.
                  It's all acting "as if" this or that is true. Words and imagination
                  become real when people need a religious "fix."

                  Prometheus

                  p.s.
                  Announcing your plans is a good way to see God laugh.




                  etznab wrote:
                  >
                  Dave,
                  >
                  I was under the impression that the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,
                  Book Two, corresponded with the Astral Plane.
                  >
                  Etznab

                  David wrote:
                  >
                  Hello Prometheus,
                  I have been reading your site for many months and
                  have decided to attempt a post since you have been
                  respectful to fellow Eckist Etznab.
                  >
                  I like the fact that this is a site where "disgruntled
                  and frustrated Eckists" can post anonymously.
                  Unfortunately, this is one important point that is
                  missing within Eckankar because criticism is always
                  seen as a negative that must be avoided at all costs.
                  >
                  I won't attemp to get into a debate or even a back
                  and forth discussion as to our differing opinions of
                  Eck. Instead I think that I will just share my pov of the
                  things that we can come close to agree upon. Truth
                  is mostly subjective anyway.
                  >
                  1.) You make some good points concerning the
                  Shariyat Books One and Two and Harold's comments
                  in the Mystic World. There are contradictions when
                  Harold states that thoughts and words are Mental
                  Plane and that Eckists need to read the Eck Holy Books
                  (our Bibles) 'forever' in order to comprehend this finite
                  Mental Plane knowledge. Harold (the man) sounds and
                  acts way too Christian for me to believe in him completely.
                  That's why I look to the Mahanta.
                  >
                  2.) You make another good point with each Section or
                  Book of the Shariyat representing a corresponding Plane
                  of Consciousness - up to the 12th Plane. It is an unusual
                  circumstance when the Second Section of the Shariyat is
                  located on the Physical Plane along with the First (earth)
                  Section whereas the others, 3rd Causal Plane and 4th Mental
                  Plane, Sections of the Shariyat are not located here for us
                  to read. Many Eckists I've spoken to have been disappointed
                  and puzzled with Harold for not having written or transcribed
                  these other two Books since they too are of the lower worlds
                  as you have pointed out.
                  >
                  3.) You make another good point about Eckankar's Creation
                  Myth involving the Garden of Eden and Adom and Ede. I admit
                  that pointing this out does add to the confusion and doubts
                  that many Eckists already have. But, sometimes the Truth does
                  hurt because change and the expansion of awareness can
                  become uncomfortable until we take out the trash! Truth is
                  always the better choice (for me) over fiction and ignorance.
                  >
                  David
                • etznab@aol.com
                  Prometheus, I liked your inclusion, or use of the word figurative . Like with many different things, I tend to believe outer information is only like the tip
                  Message 8 of 11 , Sep 9, 2007
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                    Prometheus,

                       I liked your inclusion, or use of the word "figurative". Like with many
                    different things, I tend to believe outer information is only like the tip of
                    an iceberg. I imagine the rest, and that which supports the visible, has
                    to be discovered through personal experience.

                       Much of recorded history, I believe, represents only a fraction of the
                    whole truth - the actual truth. Like the tip of an iceberg represents but
                    a fraction of that which supports it.

                       Sharing my humble opinion.

                    Etznab



                    **************************************
                    See what's new at http://www.aol.com
                  • mishmisha9
                    Hi, Etznab and everyone! I agree that recorded history is only a fraction of the whole truth. I don t really know how one could possibly write it all down
                    Message 9 of 11 , Sep 9, 2007
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                      Hi, Etznab and everyone!

                      I agree that recorded history is only a fraction of the
                      whole truth. I don't really know how one could possibly
                      write it all down accurately as it involves too much action
                      and reaction all to varying degrees of the participants. I'd
                      think one would almost have to record everything from
                      moment to moment to get it, but yet even then there is all
                      the misunderstandings and lack of fully absorbing what
                      goes on at all times and then resulted effects.

                      I find it interesting as Prometheus wrote in his post,
                      "Apparently Twitchell did finish several chapters
                      of the Shariyat Book Three (Causal Section) before
                      his untimely death. Unfortunately, Klemp has been
                      unable to complete this 'transcription,'"that Klemp
                      can't finish the Shariyat 3!! Why is that when
                      Klemp has written that he has seen Paul busily writing in
                      the Astral Library that Klemp is so incompetent and unable
                      to complete this task? If Klemp can see Paul there, why hasn't
                      the one master connected to the present master of the
                      universe?? Why doesn't old Twitch help Klemp out here? Well,
                      let's see, could it all be lies! I think so! LOL! I doubt very
                      much if all the research of eckankar history will prove
                      otherwise. This one fact, that of Klemp failing to complete
                      volume 3 of the Shariyat, is enough damning evidence to
                      show that Klemp and eckankar is a fraud!

                      Mish


                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                      etznab@... wrote:
                      >
                      > Prometheus,
                      >
                      > I liked your inclusion, or use of the word "figurative". Like with many
                      > different things, I tend to believe outer information is only like the tip of
                      > an iceberg. I imagine the rest, and that which supports the visible, has
                      > to be discovered through personal experience.
                      >
                      > Much of recorded history, I believe, represents only a fraction of the
                      > whole truth - the actual truth. Like the tip of an iceberg represents but
                      > a fraction of that which supports it.
                      >
                      > Sharing my humble opinion.
                      >
                      > Etznab
                      >
                      >
                      > **************************************
                      > See what's new at
                      > http://www.aol.com
                      >
                    • prometheus_973
                      Here s what Twitchell states (circa June, 1971) about having more than Two Shariyats: It s coming through--the whole history of ECK is coming through now in
                      Message 10 of 11 , Sep 10, 2007
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                        Here's what Twitchell states (circa June, 1971)
                        about having more than Two Shariyats:

                        "It's coming through--the whole history of ECK
                        is coming through now in The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,
                        and this is where all you people are going to be at
                        an advantage because you've been at a disadvantage
                        before. When somebody asks you about the background
                        of ECKANKAR, you never knew what to say, so now
                        you're going to have the advantage of it. 'Cause with
                        all of that, see, I WRITE BOOKS IN SERIES. I HAVE FOUR
                        BOOKS THAT ARE FINISHED NOW; WELL, THE SHARIYAT
                        IS A CONTINUED WRITING, BUT I'VE GOT THREE BOOKS
                        ACTUALLY. IN THE NEXT SERIES, I'M TAKING UP THE
                        MAHANTA AND ALL THE HISTORY OF THE MAHANTA
                        BACK TO THE BEGINNING, SO YOU PEOPLE WILL HAVE
                        SOMETHING YOU CAN GO BY." [Difficulties Of Becoming
                        The Living ECK Master, pages 135-136]

                        Isn't it, also, interesting to see the real writing style
                        of Twitchell as he explains WHY he is writing the fake
                        history for ECKists to use when gathering new members.
                        Is it any wonder, then, that PT's plagarisms sound like
                        another person... or was that just good editing!

                        But, it seems that No Edit was done on this Book and
                        these Comments that were written just months prior to
                        PT's death.

                        Prometheus


                        mishmisha wrote:
                        > >
                        Hi, Etznab and everyone!
                        > >
                        I agree that recorded history is only a fraction of the
                        whole truth. I don't really know how one could possibly
                        write it all down accurately as it involves too much action
                        and reaction all to varying degrees of the participants. I'd
                        think one would almost have to record everything from
                        moment to moment to get it, but yet even then there is all
                        the misunderstandings and lack of fully absorbing what
                        goes on at all times and then resulted effects.
                        > >
                        I find it interesting as Prometheus wrote in his post,
                        "Apparently Twitchell did finish several chapters
                        of the Shariyat Book Three (Causal Section) before
                        his untimely death. Unfortunately, Klemp has been
                        unable to complete this 'transcription,'"that Klemp
                        can't finish the Shariyat 3!! Why is that when
                        Klemp has written that he has seen Paul busily writing in
                        the Astral Library that Klemp is so incompetent and unable
                        to complete this task? If Klemp can see Paul there, why hasn't
                        the one master connected to the present master of the
                        universe?? Why doesn't old Twitch help Klemp out here? Well,
                        let's see, could it all be lies! I think so! LOL! I doubt very
                        much if all the research of eckankar history will prove
                        otherwise. This one fact, that of Klemp failing to complete
                        volume 3 of the Shariyat, is enough damning evidence to
                        show that Klemp and eckankar is a fraud!
                        > >
                        Mish
                        > >
                        > >

                        etznab@ wrote:
                        > > >
                        Prometheus,
                        > > >
                        I liked your inclusion, or use of the word "figurative". Like with many
                        different things, I tend to believe outer information is only like the tip of
                        an iceberg. I imagine the rest, and that which supports the visible, has
                        to be discovered through personal experience.
                        > > >
                        Much of recorded history, I believe, represents only a fraction of the
                        whole truth - the actual truth. Like the tip of an iceberg represents but
                        a fraction of that which supports it.
                        > > >
                        Sharing my humble opinion.
                        > > >
                        Etznab
                      • prometheus_973
                        Twitchell mentions the Shariyat and states he has Four Books that are finished now, and says, I write books in series. PT also says, the Shariyat is a
                        Message 11 of 11 , Sep 11, 2007
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                          Twitchell mentions the Shariyat and states he has
                          "Four Books that are finished now," and says, "I
                          write books in series." PT also says, "the Shariyat
                          is a continued writing" and then he backpeddals
                          by stating, "but I've Got Three Books Actually."
                          This shows where Twit has once again made
                          an exaggeration by stating he had Four Shariyats
                          and then states that he "actually" had Three.
                          However, these comments also suggest that PT
                          was planning to write all 12 Sections of the Shariyat.

                          So, once again we have to wonder... What's wrong
                          with Klemp that he can't fill Twitchell's shoes, and
                          has to rely upon Two 37 year old Shariyat Holy
                          Books for ECKANKAR? It's bad enough that these
                          Two Shariyat Sections only represent the first Two
                          Lower Planes, but they are also 37 years old and
                          are not current teachings. Yet Klemp states that
                          ECKists could/should read them "Forever!"

                          BTW- Why doesn't Klemp offer the book, "Difficulties
                          Of Becoming The Living ECK Master?" Klemp should
                          reprint this book or at least make it available in "ebook"
                          form [and unedited] for all ECKists to read... it's EK
                          History! The reason that this will never happen is
                          because Klemp fears the truth and doesn't want to
                          be bothered with the questions that would arise. Why
                          not just keep ECKists in the dark. It's easier this way,
                          and is what a KAL agent would do. Isn't that the purpose
                          of all religion... ECKANKAR included? Keep Soul trapped
                          and distracted with delusional promises by an "All
                          Knowing" leader with "Holy" scripture to back him up.

                          And notice that with religion it's always a male leader
                          that has exclusive power over all but even more power
                          over women. Why has there never been a Female Mahanta
                          when a female can be an ECK Master?! They can't incarnate
                          and handle the lower world physical vibrations when in
                          a female (negative) body?! What a load of Bull SH_T! That
                          only applies to the LEM anyway and Not to a Mahanta,
                          and one Does Not need to be both... correct? ECKists
                          just need to clear the cobwebs out and "think" like they
                          use to. ECKANKAR has more similaries to other religions,
                          especially since Klemp took over, than they would care
                          to admit. Don't let all of those female RESAs and 8th
                          and 9th Initiates fool you. None are as high as a "potential"
                          Male LEM/Mahanta.


                          Prometheus
                          p.s. I liked the U2 9/11 video clip, except, for the
                          end where G.W. makes a heartfelt comment that
                          someone else obviously wrote for him.




                          prometheus wrote:
                          >
                          > Here's what Twitchell states (circa June, 1971)
                          > about having more than Two Shariyats:
                          >
                          > "It's coming through--the whole history of ECK
                          > is coming through now in The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,
                          > and this is where all you people are going to be at
                          > an advantage because you've been at a disadvantage
                          > before. When somebody asks you about the background
                          > of ECKANKAR, you never knew what to say, so now
                          > you're going to have the advantage of it. 'Cause with
                          > all of that, see, I WRITE BOOKS IN SERIES. I HAVE FOUR
                          > BOOKS THAT ARE FINISHED NOW; WELL, THE SHARIYAT
                          > IS A CONTINUED WRITING, BUT I'VE GOT THREE BOOKS
                          > ACTUALLY. IN THE NEXT SERIES, I'M TAKING UP THE
                          > MAHANTA AND ALL THE HISTORY OF THE MAHANTA
                          > BACK TO THE BEGINNING, SO YOU PEOPLE WILL HAVE
                          > SOMETHING YOU CAN GO BY." [Difficulties Of Becoming
                          > The Living ECK Master, pages 135-136]
                          >
                          > Isn't it, also, interesting to see the real writing style
                          > of Twitchell as he explains WHY he is writing the fake
                          > history for ECKists to use when gathering new members.
                          > Is it any wonder, then, that PT's plagarisms sound like
                          > another person... or was that just good editing!
                          >
                          > But, it seems that No Edit was done on this Book and
                          > these Comments that were written just months prior to
                          > PT's death.
                          >
                          > Prometheus
                          >
                          >
                          > mishmisha wrote:
                          > > >
                          > Hi, Etznab and everyone!
                          > > >
                          > I agree that recorded history is only a fraction of the
                          > whole truth. I don't really know how one could possibly
                          > write it all down accurately as it involves too much action
                          > and reaction all to varying degrees of the participants. I'd
                          > think one would almost have to record everything from
                          > moment to moment to get it, but yet even then there is all
                          > the misunderstandings and lack of fully absorbing what
                          > goes on at all times and then resulted effects.
                          > > >
                          > I find it interesting as Prometheus wrote in his post,
                          > "Apparently Twitchell did finish several chapters
                          > of the Shariyat Book Three (Causal Section) before
                          > his untimely death. Unfortunately, Klemp has been
                          > unable to complete this 'transcription,'"that Klemp
                          > can't finish the Shariyat 3!! Why is that when
                          > Klemp has written that he has seen Paul busily writing in
                          > the Astral Library that Klemp is so incompetent and unable
                          > to complete this task? If Klemp can see Paul there, why hasn't
                          > the one master connected to the present master of the
                          > universe?? Why doesn't old Twitch help Klemp out here? Well,
                          > let's see, could it all be lies! I think so! LOL! I doubt very
                          > much if all the research of eckankar history will prove
                          > otherwise. This one fact, that of Klemp failing to complete
                          > volume 3 of the Shariyat, is enough damning evidence to
                          > show that Klemp and eckankar is a fraud!
                          > > >
                          > Mish
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > etznab@ wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > Prometheus,
                          > > > >
                          > I liked your inclusion, or use of the word "figurative". Like with many
                          > different things, I tend to believe outer information is only like the tip of
                          > an iceberg. I imagine the rest, and that which supports the visible, has
                          > to be discovered through personal experience.
                          > > > >
                          > Much of recorded history, I believe, represents only a fraction of the
                          > whole truth - the actual truth. Like the tip of an iceberg represents but
                          > a fraction of that which supports it.
                          > > > >
                          > Sharing my humble opinion.
                          > > > >
                          > Etznab
                          >
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