Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

PT: Wagner Studied Under Yaubl Sacabi in Agam Des

Expand Messages
  • prometheus_973
    Hello All, I was inspired to look at ECKANKAR: Compiled Writings, Volume I written by Paul Twitchell in or around 1968-1969. [The Copyright is 1975 by Gail
    Message 1 of 17 , Aug 11 12:07 PM
    • 0 Attachment
      Hello All,
      I was inspired to look at "ECKANKAR: Compiled Writings,
      Volume I" written by Paul Twitchell in or around 1968-1969.
      [The Copyright is 1975 by Gail T. Gross]

      First, here are some comments Twitchell shares about STRAVINSKY:

      "...Stravinsky had created the music of discord and inharmonies.
      This kind of music began to break up the fixed patterns of thought
      throughout the world... The disharmony in these pieces of music
      will start breaking up set ideas, opinions and habits that one has.
      The establishment of a new pattern of thinking with the composers
      of music always causes problems in our social structure."
      [pgs. 152-153]

      Next, here's, also, some of what Twitchell had to say about Hitler's
      favorite composer:

      "WAGNER tried his best to give the world the basic word of the
      SOUND CURRENT. He had studied under the great ECK Master,
      YAUBL SACABI, in the spiritual city of AGAM DES {on the 9th Plane!}.
      He knew the principles of ECKANKAR and tried to apply them...
      When a person who has a good ear for music AND who KNOWS
      the works of ECK listens closely to Wagner's Parsifal and
      Tannhauser, he will hear clearly the sacred word HU in them. It
      can also be heard in his other major works..." [pgs.153-154]

      So, how can Klemp say that most music is negative when
      PT claims that Stravinsky is just breaking up the old thought
      patterns of his listeners in order to get them to change to and
      view other patterns. And, that Wagner's music contains the HU!
      Why is Klemp so Negative... other than being a KAL Agent?!

      And, isn't it interesting that Wagner (way back then) traveled
      to the 9th PLANE City of Agam Des to study under ECK Master
      Yaubl Sacabi and placed HU in his music! Amazing!

      I wonder if Wagner saw any UFO's while at AGAM DES?!
      WHY UFO's AT THE 9th PLANE CITY OF AGAM DES YOU SAY!
      Because Twitchell states in these same COMPILED WRITINGS:

      "Many of THOSE {aliens} in the FLYING SAUCERS and those
      who are able to project themselves directly to this earth
      planet COME FIRST TO AGAM DES in order to ACQUAINT
      THEMSELVES with the standard COARSER VIBRATIONS,
      LIKE THOSE WHICH EXIST IN THIS PLANET."

      On page 110 Twitchell states: "The logical explanation for
      UFOs is that they are NOT VISITORS FROM OUTER SPACE,
      secret developments by any government, NOR the result
      of mass hysteria. THEY ARE perfectly natural ASTRAL
      PROJECTIONS of the PSYCHIC WORLD... The UFO experience
      is generally a SUBJECTIVE ONE, something like RELIGIOUS
      or EMOTIONAL OCCURRENCES." Astral/Psychic like with the
      Eckankar Religious Experience too!

      Isn't it, also, interesting how Klemp uses much of Twitchell's
      old material for his talks and yet HK has stopped printing
      Paul's books and other writings! Don't PT's books contain
      ECK History that should be available for all ECKists to read?
      What does Klemp Fear... the Truth?

      Prometheus



      prometheus wrote:
      >
      > Hi All,
      >
      > Peter Anton's notes on Klemp's 2005 EWWS talk on the subject of
      > music is interesting because it is so narrow mined!
      >
      > Twitchell long ago (1966) in "The Way Of Eckankar Series" on pages
      > 113, 114, and 121 discussed his preference for classical music. He
      > mentions Beethoven, Stravinsky's "The Firebird," and Wagner's
      > operas.
      >
      > Klemp is quoted by Peter for having, "got rid of all negative songs
      > EVEN if there was only ONE on a CD." [My Caps] This seems like over-
      > kill or throwing the baby out with the bath water doesn't it! Why
      > not just change tracks! DUH! Klemp's stupid remarks get worse!
      >
      > It seems that Klemp, "had a lot of Country Western 'tear jerker'
      > songs which he gave them away because someone could benefit from
      > them." So Klemp admits to passing "negative songs" on to someone
      > else! Is this the KAL or the Mahanta doing this or are they one and
      > the same? The same it would seem! Really though... why would the
      > Mahanta give negative songs to someone?!
      >
      > Peter states that Klemp has finally "started listening to classical
      > music." I find this ironic because Klemp (the Mahanta) "has been
      > listening to negative tear jerker Country Western music" for how
      > many years now? It seems this LEM/Mahanta and "special incarnation
      > of the SUGMAD" (Eckankar Lexicon) is not living up to his PR, and
      > talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk!
      >
      > Klemp states that the current Mahanta consciousness is more
      > advanced than Twitchell's was, but Twitchell listened to classical
      > music in 1966! Why has Klemp been such a slacker for all these years?
      >
      > However, is all Classical music positive? And, is all Country
      > Western music negative? For instance, Beethoven's Ninth, Mozart's
      > Requiem, and Stravinsky's Death of Petrouchka (IMO) are not all that
      > positive. And are some of Wagner's operas positive and are some
      > negative? Wagner was a very dramatic conductor and his works as a
      > composer were dramatic (emotional) as well. Would you throw out a
      > whole CD because there was one opera that you didn't like? See how
      > stupid of a statement that was by Klemp! Yet, Eckists will never see
      > this because they don't truly listen or question anything.
      >
      > ******************************************************************
      >
      > Anyway, I'll end with the lyrics to a song performed by Johnny Cash.
      >
      > Highwayman
      >
      > I was a highwayman. Along the coach roads I did ride
      > With sword and pistol by my side
      > Many a young maid lost her baubles to my trade
      > Many a soldier shed his lifeblood on my blade
      > The bastards hung me in the spring of twenty-five
      > But I am still alive.
      >
      > I was a sailor. I was born on the tide
      > And with the seas I did abide.
      > I sailed a schooner round the Horn to Mexico
      > I went aloft and furled the mainsail in a blow
      > And when the yards broke off they said I got killed
      > But I am living still.
      >
      > I was a dam builder across the river deep and wide
      > Where steel and water did collide
      > A place called Boulder on the wild Colorado
      > I slipped and fell into wet concrete below
      > They buried me in that great tomb that knows no sound
      > But I am still around...I'll always be around..and around and
      > around and around and around
      >
      > I fly a starship across the Universe divide
      > And when I reach the other side
      > I'll find a place to rest my spirit if I can
      > Perhaps I may become a highwayman again
      > Or I may simply be a single drop of rain
      > But I will remain
      > And I'll be back again, and again and again and again and again..
      > *****************************************************************
      >
      > Maybe Klemp threw out one too many Country Western CDs before
      > listening again to this one... or would it have mattered to him?
      > Probably not... he once admitted that he never was much for
      > listening.
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
    • prometheus_973
      On page 166 Twitchell states that Claude Debussy was UNCONSCIOUSLY USED by the ECK MASTERS to bring back again NATURE MUSIC... the music of the gnomes, the
      Message 2 of 17 , Aug 12 8:52 AM
      • 0 Attachment
        On page 166 Twitchell states that Claude Debussy was
        "UNCONSCIOUSLY USED by the ECK MASTERS to bring
        back again NATURE MUSIC... the music of the gnomes,
        the fairies, the water spirits, and the spirits of clouds
        and fire."

        Apparently PT doesn't mind violating the Law of Soul
        or the Law of Noninterference.

        PT: "IF the Living ECK Master THINKS it is fit to do so,
        he ENCOURAGES and LIFTS the the CONSCIOUSNESS
        of those who are musically talented... those who have
        talent and try to USE the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master,
        or the ECK either in IGNORANCE or KNOWINGLY, SUFFER
        in the END WITH TERRIBLE DISASTERS." [pgs.166-167]

        It seems PT enjoys using threats! On another note-
        Twitchell only mentions the "MAHANTA, the Living ECK
        Master in the last few pages of this book. Once on page
        167, once on page 168, and once on page 170!

        Here's what Twitchell had to say about the MAHANTA,
        the Living ECK Master on page 170:

        "The line of music both Destructive and Positive has
        been somewhat outlined here into the modern age.
        THE FUTURE SAYS that the Influence of Music will bring
        about BENEFITS to THOSE who can ACCEPT them, BUT
        EVENTUALLY the discordant elements WILL CAUSE the
        end of the material worlds in the last cycle, the Kali
        Yuga, to prepare man again for the GOLDEN AGE to
        come and the NEXT MAHANTA, the LIVING ECK MASTER,
        WHO WILL SERVE MANKIND THROUGHOUT the NEXT
        CYCLE of TIME."

        What did Twitchell mean by the "NEXT" MAHANTA/LEM
        in the "NEXT" Cycle of Time? Is this why Darwin stated,
        and thought, that PT would be the Mahanta for the next
        1,000 years or longer?!

        In the section titled: THE LONGEVITY OF THE ANCIENT
        ADEPTS (pgs. 81-86) Twitchell seems obsessed with
        living a long life. Twit even mentions many non-adepts
        that he claims lived at 105-1000 or more years. PT
        talks about the "longevity of St. John the Apostle...
        no account has been given of his death..." And, of
        a man who "wrote the Revelations on the Isle of Patmos
        ... living during the Middle Ages... under the name
        Prester John. This would have made him about 1000
        years old." [pg. 83]

        PT also states:
        "Longevity is a fact well known to anyone who is capable
        of doing Soul Travel." [pg. 83]

        Yet, Twitchell (1908-1971) was only 63 when he died!
        This just goes to show that Twitchell had no idea, at all,
        that he was going to die when he did, or that he planned
        to sacrifice himself (by eating poison) and die at a young
        age. PT just made up a story that someone had intentionally
        poisoned him in a visit to Spain. It was probably just common
        food poisoning that he experienced and this weaken his
        already bad heart.

        Here's more interesting info (exaggerations & fact twisting):

        "Since the advent of ECKANKAR into the modern world,
        STARTING ABOUT 1935..."

        Now, who began this "advent?" Isn't it strange that this
        is the same year that Klemp gives (on ECKANKAR.org)
        for Twitchell's FIRST trip to India where HK claims PT
        met SUDAR SINGH. However, since Klemp gives 1908
        as Twitchell's birth year (Marman gives 1909) this makes
        Twitchell 27 years old in 1935. And, HK states that at
        age 27 is when PT was "exaggerating" and "twisting facts"
        to get into Who's Who in Kentucky! Therefore, this 1935
        date for the ADVENT OF ECKANKAR INTO THE MODERN
        WORLD is a LIE!

        Twitchell continues: "It appears that this ancient teaching
        which made its way back into the attention of the world,
        after lying dormant for centuries, is here for a purpose.
        That is to bring greater spiritual strength to all those who
        become its followers." [pg. 123]

        Therefore, we now see that ECKANKAR was created by
        Twitchell (in part) to help people to BELIEVE in another
        form of RELIGION so as to help those FOLLOWERS to
        develop "Greater Spiritual Strength." However, shouldn't
        "followers" be set free when they have developed those
        "greater spiritual strengths?"

        Or, is it that WHEN these "followers" have gained these
        "SPIRITUAL STRENGTHS" they will realize it and NO LONGER
        NEED TO BE "FOLLOWERS" or NEED ECKANKAR!

        One more thing and here's a good one! This seems to have
        been included at the end of the book by Gail. Since she once
        thought he was born in 1922 didn't this make her wonder?
        What kind of lie did PT use to explain this I wonder? On page
        186 is a paragraph (an excerpt) titled:

        "Talks in Dublin, Ireland August, 1928" [when PT was
        10 years old?] It starts out-

        "My greatest problem with people is dealing, not with
        skeptics or non-believers, but with those with failure-
        consciousness..."

        Well, Paul certaintly made a success with his newly created
        vocation... whodathunk! Too bad it was short lived for him,
        but a bit longer for Gross. HK really made out! Yep, PT just
        needed enough people to believe and get the ball rolling and
        on the band-wagon and join early on in order to get in on
        the ground floor of his multi-level pyramid (hierarchy) of his
        Eckankar scheme/religion. What's funny is that most chelas
        just get paid with worthless initiations - but I guess they do
        make people feel good and imagine that they have more!

        Prometheus










        ************************************************************
        PT: Wagner Studied Under Yaubl Sacabi in Agam Des
        and put HU in his music.

        prometheus wrote:
        >
        > Hello All,
        > I was inspired to look at "ECKANKAR: Compiled Writings,
        > Volume I" written by Paul Twitchell in or around 1968-1969.
        > [The Copyright is 1975 by Gail T. Gross]
        >
        > First, here are some comments Twitchell shares about STRAVINSKY:
        >
        > "...Stravinsky had created the music of discord and inharmonies.
        > This kind of music began to break up the fixed patterns of thought
        > throughout the world... The disharmony in these pieces of music
        > will start breaking up set ideas, opinions and habits that one has.
        > The establishment of a new pattern of thinking with the composers
        > of music always causes problems in our social structure."
        > [pgs. 152-153]
        >
        > Next, here's, also, some of what Twitchell had to say about Hitler's
        > favorite composer:
        >
        > "WAGNER tried his best to give the world the basic word of the
        > SOUND CURRENT. He had studied under the great ECK Master,
        > YAUBL SACABI, in the spiritual city of AGAM DES {on the 9th Plane!}.
        > He knew the principles of ECKANKAR and tried to apply them...
        > When a person who has a good ear for music AND who KNOWS
        > the works of ECK listens closely to Wagner's Parsifal and
        > Tannhauser, he will hear clearly the sacred word HU in them. It
        > can also be heard in his other major works..." [pgs.153-154]
        >
        > So, how can Klemp say that most music is negative when
        > PT claims that Stravinsky is just breaking up the old thought
        > patterns of his listeners in order to get them to change to and
        > view other patterns. And, that Wagner's music contains the HU!
        > Why is Klemp so Negative... other than being a KAL Agent?!
        >
        > And, isn't it interesting that Wagner (way back then) traveled
        > to the 9th PLANE City of Agam Des to study under ECK Master
        > Yaubl Sacabi and placed HU in his music! Amazing!
        >
        > I wonder if Wagner saw any UFO's while at AGAM DES?!
        > WHY UFO's AT THE 9th PLANE CITY OF AGAM DES YOU SAY!
        > Because Twitchell states in these same COMPILED WRITINGS:
        >
        > "Many of THOSE {aliens} in the FLYING SAUCERS and those
        > who are able to project themselves directly to this earth
        > planet COME FIRST TO AGAM DES in order to ACQUAINT
        > THEMSELVES with the standard COARSER VIBRATIONS,
        > LIKE THOSE WHICH EXIST IN THIS PLANET."
        >
        > On page 110 Twitchell states: "The logical explanation for
        > UFOs is that they are NOT VISITORS FROM OUTER SPACE,
        > secret developments by any government, NOR the result
        > of mass hysteria. THEY ARE perfectly natural ASTRAL
        > PROJECTIONS of the PSYCHIC WORLD... The UFO experience
        > is generally a SUBJECTIVE ONE, something like RELIGIOUS
        > or EMOTIONAL OCCURRENCES." Astral/Psychic like with the
        > Eckankar Religious Experience too!
        >
        > Isn't it, also, interesting how Klemp uses much of Twitchell's
        > old material for his talks and yet HK has stopped printing
        > Paul's books and other writings! Don't PT's books contain
        > ECK History that should be available for all ECKists to read?
        > What does Klemp Fear... the Truth?
        >
        > Prometheus

        *****************************************************************

        > prometheus wrote:
        > >
        > > Hi All,
        > >
        > > Peter Anton's notes on Klemp's 2005 EWWS talk on the subject of
        > > music is interesting because it is so narrow mined!
        > >
        > > Twitchell long ago (1966) in "The Way Of Eckankar Series" on pages
        > > 113, 114, and 121 discussed his preference for classical music. He
        > > mentions Beethoven, Stravinsky's "The Firebird," and Wagner's
        > > operas.
        > >
        > > Klemp is quoted by Peter for having, "got rid of all negative songs
        > > EVEN if there was only ONE on a CD." [My Caps] This seems like over-
        > > kill or throwing the baby out with the bath water doesn't it! Why
        > > not just change tracks! DUH! Klemp's stupid remarks get worse!
        > >
        > > It seems that Klemp, "had a lot of Country Western 'tear jerker'
        > > songs which he gave them away because someone could benefit from
        > > them." So Klemp admits to passing "negative songs" on to someone
        > > else! Is this the KAL or the Mahanta doing this or are they one and
        > > the same? The same it would seem! Really though... why would the
        > > Mahanta give negative songs to someone?!
        > >
        > > Peter states that Klemp has finally "started listening to classical
        > > music." I find this ironic because Klemp (the Mahanta) "has been
        > > listening to negative tear jerker Country Western music" for how
        > > many years now? It seems this LEM/Mahanta and "special incarnation
        > > of the SUGMAD" (Eckankar Lexicon) is not living up to his PR, and
        > > talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk!
        > >
        > > Klemp states that the current Mahanta consciousness is more
        > > advanced than Twitchell's was, but Twitchell listened to classical
        > > music in 1966! Why has Klemp been such a slacker for all these years?
        > >
        > > However, is all Classical music positive? And, is all Country
        > > Western music negative? For instance, Beethoven's Ninth, Mozart's
        > > Requiem, and Stravinsky's Death of Petrouchka (IMO) are not all that
        > > positive. And are some of Wagner's operas positive and are some
        > > negative? Wagner was a very dramatic conductor and his works as a
        > > composer were dramatic (emotional) as well. Would you throw out a
        > > whole CD because there was one opera that you didn't like? See how
        > > stupid of a statement that was by Klemp! Yet, Eckists will never see
        > > this because they don't truly listen or question anything.
        > >
        > > ******************************************************************
        > >
        > > Anyway, I'll end with the lyrics to a song performed by Johnny Cash.
        > >
        > > Highwayman
        > >
        > > I was a highwayman. Along the coach roads I did ride
        > > With sword and pistol by my side
        > > Many a young maid lost her baubles to my trade
        > > Many a soldier shed his lifeblood on my blade
        > > The bastards hung me in the spring of twenty-five
        > > But I am still alive.
        > >
        > > I was a sailor. I was born on the tide
        > > And with the seas I did abide.
        > > I sailed a schooner round the Horn to Mexico
        > > I went aloft and furled the mainsail in a blow
        > > And when the yards broke off they said I got killed
        > > But I am living still.
        > >
        > > I was a dam builder across the river deep and wide
        > > Where steel and water did collide
        > > A place called Boulder on the wild Colorado
        > > I slipped and fell into wet concrete below
        > > They buried me in that great tomb that knows no sound
        > > But I am still around...I'll always be around..and around and
        > > around and around and around
        > >
        > > I fly a starship across the Universe divide
        > > And when I reach the other side
        > > I'll find a place to rest my spirit if I can
        > > Perhaps I may become a highwayman again
        > > Or I may simply be a single drop of rain
        > > But I will remain
        > > And I'll be back again, and again and again and again and again..
        > > *****************************************************************
        > >
        > > Maybe Klemp threw out one too many Country Western CDs before
        > > listening again to this one... or would it have mattered to him?
        > > Probably not... he once admitted that he never was much for
        > > listening.
        > >
        > > Prometheus
        > >
        >
      • prometheus_973
        Twitchell hints at being THE NEW AGE MESSIAH on pages 123-125, and claims to be able to do silent miracles and healings, but offers more by giving the
        Message 3 of 17 , Aug 13 10:10 AM
        • 0 Attachment
          Twitchell hints at being "THE NEW AGE MESSIAH" on pages
          123-125, and claims to be able to do "silent" miracles and
          "healings," but offers more by giving the "true seekers" the
          hope and belief (via imagination and trust) that he, the
          Godman, can help them travel into the heavenly worlds
          (according to initiation level).

          Its interesting that Twitchell states: "The Ancient One,
          the agent of God, whom we call the Messiah, or the Godman,
          appears in the world with every new age." [pg. 123]

          Therefore, Twitchell is really saying that he is the WORLD's
          NEW AGE MESSIAH, the GODMAN, the ANCIENT ONE. How,
          then, can Klemp claim to be this same Godman/Messiah/
          Mahanta?

          Actually, Twitchell was ECKANKAR's one and only Mahanta!

          Darwin was chosen to replace Twitchell by Gail and the
          Board of Trustees. I wonder if any of those Board Members
          are still members and which ones voted to support Gail's
          choice?

          Also, Rebazar Tarzs (Paul's imaginary master) had nothing
          to do with the decision to choose Gross! Then, after 9
          years, the "Black Magician" Gross has his FIRST meeting
          with Klemp (1980) in a Sound Proof Dark Room to discuss
          HK taking over as the LEM.

          Neither Gross or Klemp had anyone with "clean hands"
          choose them to take over to imitate Twitchell.

          And yet, ECKists HAD no problem with Gross for all
          those years, and they certainly HAVE no problem with
          those EK Initiations they received back then and still
          have! Klemp, also, has no problem with his HIGHER
          initiations he received from Gross! Not since 1971 has
          there been an Outer "Godman" like Twitchell. The others
          have just recreated themselves in his image by using his
          "original" works. This is why Klemp doesn't even attempt
          to write like PT because he is just a Poor Copy of the
          original Conman/Godman.

          Prometheus


          prometheus wrote:
          >
          > On page 166 Twitchell states that Claude Debussy was
          > "UNCONSCIOUSLY USED by the ECK MASTERS to bring
          > back again NATURE MUSIC... the music of the gnomes,
          > the fairies, the water spirits, and the spirits of clouds
          > and fire."
          >
          > Apparently the EK Masters don't mind violating the
          Law of Soul or the Law of Noninterference.
          >
          > PT: "IF the Living ECK Master THINKS it is fit to do so,
          > he ENCOURAGES and LIFTS the CONSCIOUSNESS
          > of those who are musically talented... those who have
          > talent and try to USE the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master,
          > or the ECK either in IGNORANCE or KNOWINGLY, SUFFER
          > in the END WITH TERRIBLE DISASTERS." [pgs.166-167]
          >
          > It seems PT enjoys using threats! On another note-
          > Twitchell only mentions the "MAHANTA, the Living ECK
          > Master in the last few pages of this book. Once on page
          > 167, once on page 168, and once on page 170!
          >
          > Here's what Twitchell had to say about the MAHANTA,
          > the Living ECK Master on page 170:
          >
          > "The line of music both Destructive and Positive has
          > been somewhat outlined here into the modern age.
          > THE FUTURE SAYS that the Influence of Music will bring
          > about BENEFITS to THOSE who can ACCEPT them, BUT
          > EVENTUALLY the discordant elements WILL CAUSE the
          > end of the material worlds in the last cycle, the Kali
          > Yuga, to prepare man again for the GOLDEN AGE to
          > come and the NEXT MAHANTA, the LIVING ECK MASTER,
          > WHO WILL SERVE MANKIND THROUGHOUT the NEXT
          > CYCLE of TIME."
          >
          > What did Twitchell mean by the "NEXT" MAHANTA/LEM
          > in the "NEXT" Cycle of Time? Is this why Darwin stated,
          > and thought, that PT would be the Mahanta for the next
          > 1,000 years or longer?!
          >
          > In the section titled: THE LONGEVITY OF THE ANCIENT
          > ADEPTS (pgs. 81-86) Twitchell seems obsessed with
          > living a long life. Twit even mentions many Non-Adepts
          > that he claims lived at 105-1000 or more years. PT
          > talks about the "longevity of St. John the Apostle...
          > no account has been given of his death..." and of
          > the man who "wrote the Revelations on the Isle of Patmos
          > ... living during the Middle Ages... under the name
          > Prester John. This would have made him about 1000
          > years old." [pg. 83]
          >
          > PT also states:
          > "Longevity is a fact well known to anyone who is capable
          > of doing Soul Travel." [pg. 83]
          >
          > Yet, Twitchell (1908-1971) was only 63 when he died!
          > This just goes to show that Twitchell had no idea, at all,
          > that he was going to die when he did, or that he planned
          > to sacrifice himself (by eating poison) and die at a young
          > age. PT just made up a story that someone had intentionally
          > poisoned him in a visit to Spain. It was probably just common
          > food poisoning that he experienced and this weaken his
          > already bad heart.
          >
          > Here are more interesting exaggerations & fact twisting:
          >
          > "Since the advent of ECKANKAR into the modern world,
          > STARTING ABOUT 1935..." [pg.123]
          >
          > Now, who began this "advent?" Isn't it strange that this
          > is the same year that Klemp gives (on ECKANKAR.org)
          > for Twitchell's FIRST trip to India where HK claims PT
          > met SUDAR SINGH. However, since Klemp gives 1908
          > as Twitchell's birth year (Marman gives 1909) this makes
          > Twitchell 27 years old in 1935. And, HK states that at
          > age 27 is when PT was "exaggerating" and "twisting facts"
          > to get into Who's Who in Kentucky! Therefore, this 1935
          > date for the ADVENT OF ECKANKAR INTO THE MODERN
          > WORLD is a LIE!
          >
          > Twitchell continues: "It appears that this ancient teaching
          > which made its way back into the attention of the world,
          > after lying dormant for centuries, is here for a purpose.
          > That is to bring greater spiritual strength to all those who
          > become its followers." [pg. 123]
          >
          > Therefore, we now see that ECKANKAR was created by
          > Twitchell (in part) to help people to BELIEVE in another
          > form of RELIGION so as to help those FOLLOWERS to
          > develop "Greater Spiritual Strength." However, shouldn't
          > "followers" be set free when they have developed those
          > "greater spiritual strengths?"
          >
          > Or, is it that WHEN these "followers" have gained these
          > "SPIRITUAL STRENGTHS" they will realize it and NO LONGER
          > NEED TO BE "FOLLOWERS" or NEED ECKANKAR!
          >
          > One more thing and here's a good one! This seems to have
          > been included at the end of the book by Gail. Since she once
          > thought PT was born in 1922 didn't this make her wonder?
          > What kind of lie did PT use to explain this I wonder? On page
          > 186 is a paragraph (an excerpt) titled:

          "TALKS IN DUBLIN, IRELAND AUGUST, 1928" [when PT was
          6 years old by Gail's thinking or 20 years old by the 1908
          date Klemp gives].
          >
          > "My greatest problem with people is dealing, not with
          > skeptics or non-believers, but with those with failure-
          > consciousness..."


          > Well, Paul certaintly made a success with his newly created
          > vocation... whodathunk! Too bad it was short lived for him,
          > but a bit longer for Gross. HK really made out! Yep, PT just
          > needed enough people to believe and get the ball rolling and
          > on the band-wagon ($) and join early on in order to get in on
          > the ground floor of the multi-level pyramid (hierarchy) of his
          > Eckankar scheme/religion. What's funny is that most chelas
          > just get paid with worthless initiations and are as happy as clams,
          > but I guess the belief in something exclusive does make people
          > feel good and imagine that they have more!
          >
          > Prometheus
          >

          > ************************************************************
          > PT: Wagner Studied Under Yaubl Sacabi in Agam Des
          > and put HU in his music.
          >
          > prometheus wrote:
          > >
          > > Hello All,
          > > I was inspired to look at "ECKANKAR: Compiled Writings,
          > > Volume I" written by Paul Twitchell in or around 1968-1969.
          > > [The Copyright is 1975 by Gail T. Gross]
          > >
          > > First, here are some comments Twitchell shares about STRAVINSKY:
          > >
          > > "...Stravinsky had created the music of discord and inharmonies.
          > > This kind of music began to break up the fixed patterns of thought
          > > throughout the world... The disharmony in these pieces of music
          > > will start breaking up set ideas, opinions and habits that one has.
          > > The establishment of a new pattern of thinking with the composers
          > > of music always causes problems in our social structure."
          > > [pgs. 152-153]
          > >
          > > Next, here's, also, some of what Twitchell had to say about Hitler's
          > > favorite composer:
          > >
          > > "WAGNER tried his best to give the world the basic word of the
          > > SOUND CURRENT. He had studied under the great ECK Master,
          > > YAUBL SACABI, in the spiritual city of AGAM DES {on the 9th Plane!}.
          > > He knew the principles of ECKANKAR and tried to apply them...
          > > When a person who has a good ear for music AND who KNOWS
          > > the works of ECK listens closely to Wagner's Parsifal and
          > > Tannhauser, he will hear clearly the sacred word HU in them. It
          > > can also be heard in his other major works..." [pgs.153-154]
          > >
          > > So, how can Klemp say that most music is negative when
          > > PT claims that Stravinsky is just breaking up the old thought
          > > patterns of his listeners in order to get them to change to and
          > > view other patterns. And, that Wagner's music contains the HU!
          > > Why is Klemp so Negative... other than being a KAL Agent?!
          > >
          > > And, isn't it interesting that Wagner (way back then) traveled
          > > to the 9th PLANE City of Agam Des to study under ECK Master
          > > Yaubl Sacabi and placed HU in his music! Amazing!
          > >
          > > I wonder if Wagner saw any UFO's while at AGAM DES?!
          > > WHY UFO's AT THE 9th PLANE CITY OF AGAM DES YOU SAY!
          > > Because Twitchell states in these same COMPILED WRITINGS:
          > >
          > > "Many of THOSE {aliens} in the FLYING SAUCERS and those
          > > who are able to project themselves directly to this earth
          > > planet COME FIRST TO AGAM DES in order to ACQUAINT
          > > THEMSELVES with the standard COARSER VIBRATIONS,
          > > LIKE THOSE WHICH EXIST IN THIS PLANET."
          > >
          > > On page 110 Twitchell states: "The logical explanation for
          > > UFOs is that they are NOT VISITORS FROM OUTER SPACE,
          > > secret developments by any government, NOR the result
          > > of mass hysteria. THEY ARE perfectly natural ASTRAL
          > > PROJECTIONS of the PSYCHIC WORLD... The UFO experience
          > > is generally a SUBJECTIVE ONE, something like RELIGIOUS
          > > or EMOTIONAL OCCURRENCES." Astral/Psychic like with the
          > > Eckankar Religious Experience too!
          > >
          > > Isn't it, also, interesting how Klemp uses much of Twitchell's
          > > old material for his talks and yet HK has stopped printing
          > > Paul's books and other writings! Don't PT's books contain
          > > ECK History that should be available for all ECKists to read?
          > > What does Klemp Fear... the Truth?
          > >
          > > Prometheus
          >
          > *****************************************************************
          >
          > > prometheus wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Hi All,
          > > >
          > > > Peter Anton's notes on Klemp's 2005 EWWS talk on the subject of
          > > > music is interesting because it is so narrow mined!
          > > >
          > > > Twitchell long ago (1966) in "The Way Of Eckankar Series" on pages
          > > > 113, 114, and 121 discussed his preference for classical music. He
          > > > mentions Beethoven, Stravinsky's "The Firebird," and Wagner's
          > > > operas.
          > > >
          > > > Klemp is quoted by Peter for having, "got rid of all negative songs
          > > > EVEN if there was only ONE on a CD." [My Caps] This seems like over-
          > > > kill or throwing the baby out with the bath water doesn't it! Why
          > > > not just change tracks! DUH! Klemp's stupid remarks get worse!
          > > >
          > > > It seems that Klemp, "had a lot of Country Western 'tear jerker'
          > > > songs which he gave them away because someone could benefit from
          > > > them." So Klemp admits to passing "negative songs" on to someone
          > > > else! Is this the KAL or the Mahanta doing this or are they one and
          > > > the same? The same it would seem! Really though... why would the
          > > > Mahanta give negative songs to someone?!
          > > >
          > > > Peter states that Klemp has finally "started listening to classical
          > > > music." I find this ironic because Klemp (the Mahanta) "has been
          > > > listening to negative tear jerker Country Western music" for how
          > > > many years now? It seems this LEM/Mahanta and "special incarnation
          > > > of the SUGMAD" (Eckankar Lexicon) is not living up to his PR, and
          > > > talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk!
          > > >
          > > > Klemp states that the current Mahanta consciousness is more
          > > > advanced than Twitchell's was, but Twitchell listened to classical
          > > > music in 1966! Why has Klemp been such a slacker for all these years?
          > > >
          > > > However, is all Classical music positive? And, is all Country
          > > > Western music negative? For instance, Beethoven's Ninth, Mozart's
          > > > Requiem, and Stravinsky's Death of Petrouchka (IMO) are not all that
          > > > positive. And are some of Wagner's operas positive and are some
          > > > negative? Wagner was a very dramatic conductor and his works as a
          > > > composer were dramatic (emotional) as well. Would you throw out a
          > > > whole CD because there was one opera that you didn't like? See how
          > > > stupid of a statement that was by Klemp! Yet, Eckists will never see
          > > > this because they don't truly listen or question anything.
          > > >
          > > > ******************************************************************
          > > >
          > > > Anyway, I'll end with the lyrics to a song performed by Johnny Cash.
          > > >
          > > > Highwayman
          > > >
          > > > I was a highwayman. Along the coach roads I did ride
          > > > With sword and pistol by my side
          > > > Many a young maid lost her baubles to my trade
          > > > Many a soldier shed his lifeblood on my blade
          > > > The bastards hung me in the spring of twenty-five
          > > > But I am still alive.
          > > >
          > > > I was a sailor. I was born on the tide
          > > > And with the seas I did abide.
          > > > I sailed a schooner round the Horn to Mexico
          > > > I went aloft and furled the mainsail in a blow
          > > > And when the yards broke off they said I got killed
          > > > But I am living still.
          > > >
          > > > I was a dam builder across the river deep and wide
          > > > Where steel and water did collide
          > > > A place called Boulder on the wild Colorado
          > > > I slipped and fell into wet concrete below
          > > > They buried me in that great tomb that knows no sound
          > > > But I am still around...I'll always be around..and around and
          > > > around and around and around
          > > >
          > > > I fly a starship across the Universe divide
          > > > And when I reach the other side
          > > > I'll find a place to rest my spirit if I can
          > > > Perhaps I may become a highwayman again
          > > > Or I may simply be a single drop of rain
          > > > But I will remain
          > > > And I'll be back again, and again and again and again and again..
          > > > *****************************************************************
          > > >
          > > > Maybe Klemp threw out one too many Country Western CDs before
          > > > listening again to this one... or would it have mattered to him?
          > > > Probably not... he once admitted that he never was much for
          > > > listening.
          > > >
          > > > Prometheus
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • prometheus_973
          Hi All, I thought I d bring this back for another look. The Mahanta Title, created in 1969, was the Catch-22 that Twitchell needed. ... *Actually, Twitchell
          Message 4 of 17 , Aug 26 10:32 AM
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi All,
            I thought I'd bring this back for another look. The
            Mahanta Title, created in 1969, was the 'Catch-22'
            that Twitchell needed.

            prometheus wrote:
            >
            > Twitchell hints at being "THE NEW AGE MESSIAH" on pages
            > 123-125, and claims to be able to do "silent" miracles and
            > "healings," but offers more by giving the "true seekers" the
            > hope and belief (via imagination and trust) that he, the
            > Godman, can help them travel into the heavenly worlds
            > (according to initiation level).
            >
            > Its interesting that Twitchell states: "The Ancient One,
            > the agent of God, whom we call the Messiah, or the Godman,
            > appears in the world with every new age." [pg. 123]
            >
            > Therefore, Twitchell is really saying that he is the WORLD's
            > NEW AGE MESSIAH, the GODMAN, the ANCIENT ONE. How,
            > then, can Klemp claim to be this same Godman/Messiah/
            > Mahanta?

            *Actually, Twitchell was ECKANKAR's One and Only
            MAHANTA and created this title in January of 1969!
            PT used the Jan. 1, 1969 "Wisdom Notes" and the January
            1969 "Illuminated Way Letters" to introduce this NEW
            TITLE and CONCEPT to ECK Chelas.

            > Darwin was chosen to replace Twitchell by Gail and the
            > EK Board of Trustees supported her choice. I wonder if
            > any of those Board Members are STILL on the Board?
            > And, are there any Current Board members remaining
            > who voted DG out and HK in?
            >
            > Also, Rebazar Tarzs (Paul's imaginary master) had nothing
            > to do with the decision to choose Gross! Then, after 9
            > years, the "Black Magician" Gross has his FIRST meeting
            > with Klemp (1980) in a Sound Proof Dark Room to discuss
            > HK taking over as the LEM.
            >
            > Neither Gross or Klemp had anyone with "Clean Hands"
            > choose them to take over to imitate Twitchell.
            >
            > And yet, ECKists had NO PROBLEM with Gross for all
            > those years, and they certainly have NO PROBLEM with
            > those EK INITIATIONS they received back then and STILL
            > have! Klemp, also, has No Problem with his HIGHER
            > Initiations he received from Gross! Not since 1971 has
            > there been an Outer "Godman" like Twitchell. The others
            > (DG & HK) have just recreated themselves in his image
            > by using his "original" works. This is why Klemp doesn't
            > even attempt to write like PT because HK is just a Poor
            > Copy of the original Conman/Godman Twitchell.
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            >
            > prometheus wrote:
            > >
            > > On page 166 Twitchell states that Claude Debussy was
            > > "UNCONSCIOUSLY USED by the ECK MASTERS to bring
            > > back again NATURE MUSIC... the music of the gnomes,
            > > the fairies, the water spirits, and the spirits of clouds
            > > and fire."
            > >
            > > Apparently the EK Masters don't mind violating the
            > Law of Soul or the Law of Noninterference.
            > >
            > > PT: "IF the Living ECK Master THINKS it is fit to do so,
            > > he ENCOURAGES and LIFTS the CONSCIOUSNESS
            > > of those who are musically talented... those who have
            > > talent and try to USE the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master,
            > > or the ECK either in IGNORANCE or KNOWINGLY, SUFFER
            > > in the END WITH TERRIBLE DISASTERS." [pgs.166-167]
            > >
            > > It seems PT enjoys using threats! On another note-
            > > Twitchell only mentions the "MAHANTA, the Living ECK
            > > Master in the last few pages of this book. Once on page
            > > 167, once on page 168, and once on page 170!
            > >
            > > Here's what Twitchell had to say about the MAHANTA,
            > > the Living ECK Master on page 170:
            > >
            > > "The line of music both Destructive and Positive has
            > > been somewhat outlined here into the modern age.
            > > THE FUTURE SAYS that the Influence of Music will bring
            > > about BENEFITS to THOSE who can ACCEPT them, BUT
            > > EVENTUALLY the discordant elements WILL CAUSE the
            > > end of the material worlds in the last cycle, the Kali
            > > Yuga, to prepare man again for the GOLDEN AGE to
            > > come and the NEXT MAHANTA, the LIVING ECK MASTER,
            > > WHO WILL SERVE MANKIND THROUGHOUT the NEXT
            > > CYCLE of TIME."
            > >
            > > What did Twitchell mean by the "NEXT" MAHANTA/LEM
            > > in the "NEXT" Cycle of Time? Is this why Darwin stated,
            > > and thought, that PT would be the Mahanta for the next
            > > 1,000 years or longer?!
            > >
            > > In the section titled: THE LONGEVITY OF THE ANCIENT
            > > ADEPTS (pgs. 81-86) Twitchell seems obsessed with
            > > living a long life. Twit even mentions many Non-Adepts
            > > that he claims lived at 105-1000 or more years. PT
            > > talks about the "longevity of St. John the Apostle...
            > > no account has been given of his death..." and of
            > > the man who "wrote the Revelations on the Isle of Patmos
            > > ... living during the Middle Ages... under the name
            > > Prester John. This would have made him about 1000
            > > years old." [pg. 83]
            > >
            > > PT also states:
            > > "Longevity is a fact well known to anyone who is capable
            > > of doing Soul Travel." [pg. 83]
            > >
            > > Yet, Twitchell (1908-1971) was only 63 when he died!
            > > This just goes to show that Twitchell had no idea, at all,
            > > that he was going to die when he did, or that he planned
            > > to sacrifice himself (by eating poison) and die at a young
            > > age. PT just made up a story that someone had intentionally
            > > poisoned him in a visit to Spain. It was probably just common
            > > food poisoning that he experienced and this weaken his
            > > already bad heart.
            > >
            > > Here are more interesting exaggerations & fact twisting:
            > >
            > > "Since the advent of ECKANKAR into the modern world,
            > > STARTING ABOUT 1935..." [pg.123]
            > >
            > > Now, who began this "advent?" Isn't it strange that this
            > > is the same year that Klemp gives (on ECKANKAR.org)
            > > for Twitchell's FIRST trip to India where HK claims PT
            > > met SUDAR SINGH. However, since Klemp gives 1908
            > > as Twitchell's birth year (Marman gives 1909) this makes
            > > Twitchell 27 years old in 1935. And, HK states that at
            > > age 27 is when PT was "exaggerating" and "twisting facts"
            > > to get into Who's Who in Kentucky! Therefore, this 1935
            > > date for the ADVENT OF ECKANKAR INTO THE MODERN
            > > WORLD is a LIE!
            > >
            > > Twitchell continues: "It appears that this ancient teaching
            > > which made its way back into the attention of the world,
            > > after lying dormant for centuries, is here for a purpose.
            > > That is to bring greater spiritual strength to all those who
            > > become its followers." [pg. 123]
            > >
            > > Therefore, we now see that ECKANKAR was created by
            > > Twitchell (in part) to help people to BELIEVE in another
            > > form of RELIGION so as to help those FOLLOWERS to
            > > develop "Greater Spiritual Strength." However, shouldn't
            > > "followers" be set free when they have developed those
            > > "greater spiritual strengths?"
            > >
            > > Or, is it that WHEN these "followers" have gained these
            > > "SPIRITUAL STRENGTHS" they will realize it and NO LONGER
            > > NEED TO BE "FOLLOWERS" or NEED ECKANKAR!
            > >
            > > One more thing and here's a good one! This seems to have
            > > been included at the end of the book by Gail. Since she once
            > > thought PT was born in 1922 didn't this make her wonder?
            > > What kind of lie did PT use to explain this I wonder? On page
            > > 186 is a paragraph (an excerpt) titled:
            >
            > "TALKS IN DUBLIN, IRELAND AUGUST, 1928" [when PT was
            > 6 years old by Gail's thinking or 20 years old by the 1908
            > date Klemp gives].
            > >
            > > "My greatest problem with people is dealing, not with
            > > skeptics or non-believers, but with those with failure-
            > > consciousness..."
            >
            >
            > > Well, Paul certaintly made a success with his newly created
            > > vocation... whodathunk! Too bad it was short lived for him,
            > > but a bit longer for Gross. HK really made out! Yep, PT just
            > > needed enough people to believe and get the ball rolling and
            > > on the band-wagon ($) and join early on in order to get in on
            > > the ground floor of the multi-level pyramid (hierarchy) of his
            > > Eckankar scheme/religion. What's funny is that most chelas
            > > just get paid with worthless initiations and are as happy as clams,
            > > but I guess the belief in something exclusive does make people
            > > feel good and imagine that they have more!
            > >
            > > Prometheus
            > >
            >
            > > ************************************************************
            > > PT: Wagner Studied Under Yaubl Sacabi in Agam Des
            > > and put HU in his music.
            > >
            > > prometheus wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Hello All,
            > > > I was inspired to look at "ECKANKAR: Compiled Writings,
            > > > Volume I" written by Paul Twitchell in or around 1968-1969.
            > > > [The Copyright is 1975 by Gail T. Gross]
            > > >
            > > > First, here are some comments Twitchell shares about STRAVINSKY:
            > > >
            > > > "...Stravinsky had created the music of discord and inharmonies.
            > > > This kind of music began to break up the fixed patterns of thought
            > > > throughout the world... The disharmony in these pieces of music
            > > > will start breaking up set ideas, opinions and habits that one has.
            > > > The establishment of a new pattern of thinking with the composers
            > > > of music always causes problems in our social structure."
            > > > [pgs. 152-153]
            > > >
            > > > Next, here's, also, some of what Twitchell had to say about Hitler's
            > > > favorite composer:
            > > >
            > > > "WAGNER tried his best to give the world the basic word of the
            > > > SOUND CURRENT. He had studied under the great ECK Master,
            > > > YAUBL SACABI, in the spiritual city of AGAM DES {on the 9th Plane!}.
            > > > He knew the principles of ECKANKAR and tried to apply them...
            > > > When a person who has a good ear for music AND who KNOWS
            > > > the works of ECK listens closely to Wagner's Parsifal and
            > > > Tannhauser, he will hear clearly the sacred word HU in them. It
            > > > can also be heard in his other major works..." [pgs.153-154]
            > > >
            > > > So, how can Klemp say that most music is negative when
            > > > PT claims that Stravinsky is just breaking up the old thought
            > > > patterns of his listeners in order to get them to change to and
            > > > view other patterns. And, that Wagner's music contains the HU!
            > > > Why is Klemp so Negative... other than being a KAL Agent?!
            > > >
            > > > And, isn't it interesting that Wagner (way back then) traveled
            > > > to the 9th PLANE City of Agam Des to study under ECK Master
            > > > Yaubl Sacabi and placed HU in his music! Amazing!
            > > >
            > > > I wonder if Wagner saw any UFO's while at AGAM DES?!
            > > > WHY UFO's AT THE 9th PLANE CITY OF AGAM DES YOU SAY!
            > > > Because Twitchell states in these same COMPILED WRITINGS:
            > > >
            > > > "Many of THOSE {aliens} in the FLYING SAUCERS and those
            > > > who are able to project themselves directly to this earth
            > > > planet COME FIRST TO AGAM DES in order to ACQUAINT
            > > > THEMSELVES with the standard COARSER VIBRATIONS,
            > > > LIKE THOSE WHICH EXIST IN THIS PLANET."
            > > >
            > > > On page 110 Twitchell states: "The logical explanation for
            > > > UFOs is that they are NOT VISITORS FROM OUTER SPACE,
            > > > secret developments by any government, NOR the result
            > > > of mass hysteria. THEY ARE perfectly natural ASTRAL
            > > > PROJECTIONS of the PSYCHIC WORLD... The UFO experience
            > > > is generally a SUBJECTIVE ONE, something like RELIGIOUS
            > > > or EMOTIONAL OCCURRENCES." Astral/Psychic like with the
            > > > Eckankar Religious Experience too!
            > > >
            > > > Isn't it, also, interesting how Klemp uses much of Twitchell's
            > > > old material for his talks and yet HK has stopped printing
            > > > Paul's books and other writings! Don't PT's books contain
            > > > ECK History that should be available for all ECKists to read?
            > > > What does Klemp Fear... the Truth?
            > > >
            > > > Prometheus
            > >
            > > *****************************************************************
            > >
            > > > prometheus wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > Hi All,
            > > > >
            > > > > Peter Anton's notes on Klemp's 2005 EWWS talk on the subject of
            > > > > music is interesting because it is so narrow mined!
            > > > >
            > > > > Twitchell long ago (1966) in "The Way Of Eckankar Series" on pages
            > > > > 113, 114, and 121 discussed his preference for classical music. He
            > > > > mentions Beethoven, Stravinsky's "The Firebird," and Wagner's
            > > > > operas.
            > > > >
            > > > > Klemp is quoted by Peter for having, "got rid of all negative songs
            > > > > EVEN if there was only ONE on a CD." [My Caps] This seems like over-
            > > > > kill or throwing the baby out with the bath water doesn't it! Why
            > > > > not just change tracks! DUH! Klemp's stupid remarks get worse!
            > > > >
            > > > > It seems that Klemp, "had a lot of Country Western 'tear jerker'
            > > > > songs which he gave them away because someone could benefit from
            > > > > them." So Klemp admits to passing "negative songs" on to someone
            > > > > else! Is this the KAL or the Mahanta doing this or are they one and
            > > > > the same? The same it would seem! Really though... why would the
            > > > > Mahanta give negative songs to someone?!
            > > > >
            > > > > Peter states that Klemp has finally "started listening to classical
            > > > > music." I find this ironic because Klemp (the Mahanta) "has been
            > > > > listening to negative tear jerker Country Western music" for how
            > > > > many years now? It seems this LEM/Mahanta and "special incarnation
            > > > > of the SUGMAD" (Eckankar Lexicon) is not living up to his PR, and
            > > > > talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk!
            > > > >
            > > > > Klemp states that the current Mahanta consciousness is more
            > > > > advanced than Twitchell's was, but Twitchell listened to classical
            > > > > music in 1966! Why has Klemp been such a slacker for all these years?
            > > > >
            > > > > However, is all Classical music positive? And, is all Country
            > > > > Western music negative? For instance, Beethoven's Ninth, Mozart's
            > > > > Requiem, and Stravinsky's Death of Petrouchka (IMO) are not all that
            > > > > positive. And are some of Wagner's operas positive and are some
            > > > > negative? Wagner was a very dramatic conductor and his works as a
            > > > > composer were dramatic (emotional) as well. Would you throw out a
            > > > > whole CD because there was one opera that you didn't like? See how
            > > > > stupid of a statement that was by Klemp! Yet, Eckists will never see
            > > > > this because they don't truly listen or question anything.
            > > > >
            > > > > ******************************************************************
            > > > >
            > > > > Anyway, I'll end with the lyrics to a song performed by Johnny Cash.
            > > > >
            > > > > Highwayman
            > > > >
            > > > > I was a highwayman. Along the coach roads I did ride
            > > > > With sword and pistol by my side
            > > > > Many a young maid lost her baubles to my trade
            > > > > Many a soldier shed his lifeblood on my blade
            > > > > The bastards hung me in the spring of twenty-five
            > > > > But I am still alive.
            > > > >
            > > > > I was a sailor. I was born on the tide
            > > > > And with the seas I did abide.
            > > > > I sailed a schooner round the Horn to Mexico
            > > > > I went aloft and furled the mainsail in a blow
            > > > > And when the yards broke off they said I got killed
            > > > > But I am living still.
            > > > >
            > > > > I was a dam builder across the river deep and wide
            > > > > Where steel and water did collide
            > > > > A place called Boulder on the wild Colorado
            > > > > I slipped and fell into wet concrete below
            > > > > They buried me in that great tomb that knows no sound
            > > > > But I am still around...I'll always be around..and around and
            > > > > around and around and around
            > > > >
            > > > > I fly a starship across the Universe divide
            > > > > And when I reach the other side
            > > > > I'll find a place to rest my spirit if I can
            > > > > Perhaps I may become a highwayman again
            > > > > Or I may simply be a single drop of rain
            > > > > But I will remain
            > > > > And I'll be back again, and again and again and again and again..
            > > > > *****************************************************************
            > > > >
            > > > > Maybe Klemp threw out one too many Country Western CDs before
            > > > > listening again to this one... or would it have mattered to him?
            > > > > Probably not... he once admitted that he never was much for
            > > > > listening.
            > > > >
            > > > > Prometheus
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • etznab@aol.com
            The word MAHANTA appears in the December 1962 letter from Paul Twitchell to Gail. How do you believe this fits with the 1969 appearance? Was Paul Twitchell
            Message 5 of 17 , Aug 26 2:02 PM
            • 0 Attachment

                 The word "MAHANTA" appears in the December 1962 letter
              from Paul Twitchell to Gail.

                 How do you believe this fits with the 1969 appearance? Was
              Paul Twitchell already familiar with and using this term seven
              years before it was first illustrated for Eckists?

                 What ya think?

              Etznab



              **************************************
              Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
            • Elizabeth
              Which copy? The original 1st copy write or the edited version after Klemp took over? ... From: etznab@aol.com Date: 08/26/07 17:12:21 To:
              Message 6 of 17 , Aug 26 5:40 PM
              • 0 Attachment
                Which copy?  The original 1st copy write or the edited version after Klemp took over?
                 
                -------Original Message-------
                 
                Date: 08/26/07 17:12:21
                Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: More From Twitchell's Compiled Writings:
                 

                   The word "MAHANTA" appears in the December 1962 letter
                from Paul Twitchell to Gail.

                   How do you believe this fits with the 1969 appearance? Was
                Paul Twitchell already familiar with and using this term seven
                years before it was first illustrated for Eckists?

                   What ya think?

                Etznab



              • etznab@aol.com
                I am aware of only one version. My L.T.G. book is the 5th printing from 1983. The original copyright by Gail A. Twitchell was 1973. The copyright transferred
                Message 7 of 17 , Aug 26 6:30 PM
                • 0 Attachment

                     I am aware of only one version. My L.T.G. book is the 5th printing
                  from 1983.

                     The original copyright by Gail A. Twitchell was 1973. The copyright
                  transferred to Eckankar in 1982. 

                     So what are you saying? Have you seen earlier versions of the book
                  (before Harold took over) where the word "MAHANTA" didn't appear?
                  Or, do you know of any?

                     I'm not sure if you're assuming the original letter had given a different
                  version, or if what you' are saying is based on actual fact.

                  Etznab



                  **************************************
                  Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
                • Elizabeth
                  I sold an earlier version to one of David Lane s researchers... 5th printing eh? Okay... That answers my question. ... From: etznab@aol.com Date:
                  Message 8 of 17 , Aug 26 7:40 PM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I sold an earlier version to one of David Lane's researchers...  5th printing eh?    Okay...  That answers my question. 
                     
                    -------Original Message-------
                     
                    Date: 8/26/2007 9:31:26 PM
                    Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: More From Twitchell's Compiled Writings:
                     

                       I am aware of only one version. My L.T.G. book is the 5th printing
                    from 1983.

                       The original copyright by Gail A. Twitchell was 1973. The copyright
                    transferred to Eckankar in 1982. 

                       So what are you saying? Have you seen earlier versions of the book
                    (before Harold took over) where the word "MAHANTA" didn't appear?
                    Or, do you know of any?

                       I'm not sure if you're assuming the original letter had given a different
                    version, or if what you' are saying is based on actual fact.

                    Etznab



                  • etznab@aol.com
                    The first time MAHANTA appears in Letters to Gail (1983 version) is in the 1st letter (4th paragraph). It was given in capital letters. Very quickly I
                    Message 9 of 17 , Aug 26 8:07 PM
                    • 0 Attachment

                         The first time "MAHANTA" appears in Letters to Gail
                      (1983 version) is in the 1st letter (4th paragraph). It was
                      given in capital letters.

                         Very quickly I scanned Letters to Gail, Volumes One,
                      Two, and Three for another appearance. It's possible I
                      overlooked it, but I didn't see another appearance. Not
                      in any of the Letters to Gail.

                         Though it's possible that the one appearance was
                      added later on, I really can't say for sure.

                         Would like to know for sure though, because I haven't
                      heard a 1962 date quoted much in connection with the
                      "Mahanta" term used by Eckankar. Not sure that even
                      Ford Johnson used this date in his book. I think Ford
                      used 1965. Others have used 1969. Only recently was
                      it pointed out to me that this term appeared in a 1962
                      letter from Paul to Gail. Before that, I too was under the
                      impression that it's first appearance was not until 1969.

                      Etznab

                        

                      Etznab

                        



                      **************************************
                      Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
                    • etznab@aol.com
                      Too bad you don t still have that earlier version of Letters to Gail. That way you could tell me if the word MAHANTA appeared in it. I do remember something
                      Message 10 of 17 , Aug 26 8:52 PM
                      • 0 Attachment

                           Too bad you don't still have that earlier version of Letters to Gail.
                        That way you could tell me if the word "MAHANTA" appeared in it.

                           I do remember something mentioned by Doug Marman about the
                        likelihood of "Eck Terms" being added later by Paul Twitchell to at
                        least one of his books. Something to that effect. Think it was from
                        the online "Dialogues" book. So I'm wondering if "MAHANTA: was
                        later added to L.T.G. Vol. One. What do you think?

                           Here is the Doug Marman quote I was referring to:

                        "[....] In Paul's book, Dialogues with the Master, which was
                        apparently written around 1956-57, Paul asks an inner master
                        by the name of Rami Nuri about the meaning of the Master:

                                PAUL: "I wish to ask a question of you, Lord."
                                RAMI NURI: "I am not your Lord, but ask."
                                PAUL: "Is there such a being as MAHANTA?"
                                RAMI NURI: "Only as the manifested power... The God-Power
                        can take any shape it desires. Usually, the Godman takes the shape
                        of others in the inner cosmic worlds to appear to certain teachers, and
                        devotees to give them the true Light."
                                PAUL: "If he appeared in his own form then they would either not
                        know him, or perhaps would not believe."
                                RAMI NURI: "He appears to all ECK chelas as the Mahanta, the
                        Living ECK Master and the Master to any of his disciples.        
                                                  "He is in as many forms as he desires to be. He could
                        appear to one or many in contemplation. He can appear as a thousand or
                        even a million  different forms to a million different people in contemplation
                        at the same time...        
                                                   "However, let us say this - those who do not see him
                        in his true form as the Godman, Himself, will see him only as their teacher
                        or guru, and to them he gives the inner teachings as only they, the disciples,
                        can accept."

                              "While it is likely that Paul later added the ECK terms to this text
                        before it was published in 1970, still the meaning is clear. And, finally
                        Paul had to realize that with everything he had experienced, and with
                        all his writings and creative expressions that he wanted to share, they
                        could no longer fit with any of his previous teachings. He could find no
                        home for those teachings with his past teachers. Therefore, ECKANKAR
                        was something that would have to stand on its own. [....]"

                        [Based on: http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Five.htm]

                            Don't know if this quote will transfer without getting broken up
                        into a bunch of scattered lines, nevertheless the text is there.

                           So this idea about "Eck Terms" being added later on is not new
                        to me - when you compare the earlier manuscripts/versions of what
                        Paul wrote with the later published forms.

                           I'm not gonna jump to conclusions though about the L.T.G. book.
                        Whether the term "MAHANTA" was there in the original or not. The
                        fact is (based on what I have seen), I can only give the information I
                        have.

                        Etznab

                          



                        **************************************
                        Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
                      • Elizabeth
                        Etznab, keep your eye on eBay! Many long time eckists from back in the beginning, have been selling off their first copy material. Maybe David Lane can
                        Message 11 of 17 , Aug 27 5:40 AM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Etznab,  keep your eye on eBay!  Many long time eckists from back in the beginning, have been selling off their first copy material.  Maybe David Lane can point you toward the material, or at least hook you up with the researchers he had buying the stuff up.  I have seen some of them posting on various sites...  Not all were members of eckankar either!   One other thing to remember too,   since Gail sold all of the rights to PT's material to eckankar, that gave them "legal" rights to change what ever they wanted to fix their problem!  I wouldn't buy into Doug's spin, nor the book,  that will eventually create another splinter group.  
                           
                          -------Original Message-------
                           
                          Date: 8/26/2007 11:52:40 PM
                          Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: More From Twitchell's Compiled Writings:
                           

                             Too bad you don't still have that earlier version of Letters to Gail.
                          That way you could tell me if the word "MAHANTA" appeared in it.

                             I do remember something mentioned by Doug Marman about the
                          likelihood of "Eck Terms" being added later by Paul Twitchell to at
                          least one of his books. Something to that effect. Think it was from
                          the online "Dialogues" book. So I'm wondering if "MAHANTA: was
                          later added to L.T.G. Vol. One. What do you think?

                             Here is the Doug Marman quote I was referring to:

                          "[....] In Paul's book, Dialogues with the Master, which was
                          apparently written around 1956-57, Paul asks an inner master
                          by the name of Rami Nuri about the meaning of the Master:

                                  PAUL: "I wish to ask a question of you, Lord."
                                  RAMI NURI: "I am not your Lord, but ask."
                                  PAUL: "Is there such a being as MAHANTA?"
                                  RAMI NURI: "Only as the manifested power... The God-Power
                          can take any shape it desires. Usually, the Godman takes the shape
                          of others in the inner cosmic worlds to appear to certain teachers, and
                          devotees to give them the true Light."
                                  PAUL: "If he appeared in his own form then they would either not
                          know him, or perhaps would not believe."
                                  RAMI NURI: "He appears to all ECK chelas as the Mahanta, the
                          Living ECK Master and the Master to any of his disciples.        
                                                    "He is in as many forms as he desires to be. He could
                          appear to one or many in contemplation. He can appear as a thousand or
                          even a million  different forms to a million different people in contemplation
                          at the same time...        
                                                     "However, let us say this - those who do not see him
                          in his true form as the Godman, Himself, will see him only as their teacher
                          or guru, and to them he gives the inner teachings as only they, the disciples,
                          can accept."

                                "While it is likely that Paul later added the ECK terms to this text
                          before it was published in 1970, still the meaning is clear. And, finally
                          Paul had to realize that with everything he had experienced, and with
                          all his writings and creative expressions that he wanted to share, they
                          could no longer fit with any of his previous teachings. He could find no
                          home for those teachings with his past teachers. Therefore, ECKANKAR
                          was something that would have to stand on its own. [....]"

                          [Based on: http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Five.htm]

                              Don't know if this quote will transfer without getting broken up
                          into a bunch of scattered lines, nevertheless the text is there.

                             So this idea about "Eck Terms" being added later on is not new
                          to me - when you compare the earlier manuscripts/versions of what
                          Paul wrote with the later published forms.

                             I'm not gonna jump to conclusions though about the L.T.G. book.
                          Whether the term "MAHANTA" was there in the original or not. The
                          fact is (based on what I have seen), I can only give the information I
                          have.

                          Etznab

                            



                          **************************************
                          Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
                           
                        • Elizabeth
                          Did Doug ever question Darwin Gross concerning the history of PT and the teachings, while writing his book? Wouldn t that have been a hoot if he had
                          Message 12 of 17 , Aug 27 7:48 AM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Did Doug ever question Darwin Gross concerning the "history"  of PT and the teachings, while writing his book?   Wouldn't that have been a hoot if he had Darwin promoting "The Whole Truth" !   Hmmm,  maybe Doug should align himself with ATOM, he just might get a promotion to "grand pooh bah"?   
                             
                              
                             
                            -------Original Message-------
                             
                            From: Elizabeth
                            Date: 8/27/2007 9:37:49 AM
                            Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: More From Twitchell's Compiled Writings:
                             
                            Etznab,  keep your eye on eBay!  Many long time eckists from back in the beginning, have been selling off their first copy material.  Maybe David Lane can point you toward the material, or at least hook you up with the researchers he had buying the stuff up.  I have seen some of them posting on various sites...  Not all were members of eckankar either!   One other thing to remember too,   since Gail sold all of the rights to PT's material to eckankar, that gave them "legal" rights to change what ever they wanted to fix their problem!  I wouldn't buy into Doug's spin, nor the book,  that will eventually create another splinter group.  
                             
                             
                          • etznab@aol.com
                            Thanks for sharing that ewickings. I ll keep that in mind. Etznab ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
                            Message 13 of 17 , Aug 27 6:17 PM
                            • 0 Attachment

                                 Thanks for sharing that ewickings. I'll keep that in mind.

                              Etznab



                              **************************************
                              Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
                            • Non ekster
                              This is very interesting, especially about Stravinsky. I wonder if there isn t yet another unquoted source here, as if Twitchell was really a musicologist or
                              Message 14 of 17 , Sep 12, 2007
                              • 0 Attachment
                                This is very interesting, especially about Stravinsky. I wonder if
                                there isn't yet another unquoted source here, as if Twitchell was
                                really a musicologist or something. How often have you heard a
                                Stravinsky or Wagner CD played at an eck seminar or worship service?
                                Klemp is a bit too tepid for this kind of display.

                                I remember reading this book, but have since lost track of it. And
                                yyeh, why is it unpublished?

                                Nonekster ; )

                                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                                <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                >
                                PT: Wagner Studied Under Yaubl Sacabi in Agam Des

                                Hello All,
                                I was inspired to look at "ECKANKAR: Compiled Writings,
                                Volume I" written by Paul Twitchell in or around 1968-1969.
                                [The Copyright is 1975 by Gail T. Gross]

                                First, here are some comments Twitchell shares about STRAVINSKY:

                                "...Stravinsky had created the music of discord and inharmonies.
                                This kind of music began to break up the fixed patterns of thought
                                throughout the world... The disharmony in these pieces of music
                                will start breaking up set ideas, opinions and habits that one has.
                                The establishment of a new pattern of thinking with the composers
                                of music always causes problems in our social structure."
                                [pgs. 152-153]

                                Next, here's, also, some of what Twitchell had to say about Hitler's
                                favorite composer:

                                "WAGNER tried his best to give the world the basic word of the
                                SOUND CURRENT. He had studied under the great ECK Master,
                                YAUBL SACABI, in the spiritual city of AGAM DES {on the 9th Plane!}.
                                He knew the principles of ECKANKAR and tried to apply them...
                                When a person who has a good ear for music AND who KNOWS
                                the works of ECK listens closely to Wagner's Parsifal and
                                Tannhauser, he will hear clearly the sacred word HU in them. It
                                can also be heard in his other major works..." [pgs.153-154]

                                So, how can Klemp say that most music is negative when
                                PT claims that Stravinsky is just breaking up the old thought
                                patterns of his listeners in order to get them to change to and
                                view other patterns. And, that Wagner's music contains the HU!
                                Why is Klemp so Negative... other than being a KAL Agent?!

                                And, isn't it interesting that Wagner (way back then) traveled
                                to the 9th PLANE City of Agam Des to study under ECK Master
                                Yaubl Sacabi and placed HU in his music! Amazing!

                                I wonder if Wagner saw any UFO's while at AGAM DES?!
                                WHY UFO's AT THE 9th PLANE CITY OF AGAM DES YOU SAY!
                                Because Twitchell states in these same COMPILED WRITINGS:

                                "Many of THOSE {aliens} in the FLYING SAUCERS and those
                                who are able to project themselves directly to this earth
                                planet COME FIRST TO AGAM DES in order to ACQUAINT
                                THEMSELVES with the standard COARSER VIBRATIONS,
                                LIKE THOSE WHICH EXIST IN THIS PLANET."

                                On page 110 Twitchell states: "The logical explanation for
                                UFOs is that they are NOT VISITORS FROM OUTER SPACE,
                                secret developments by any government, NOR the result
                                of mass hysteria. THEY ARE perfectly natural ASTRAL
                                PROJECTIONS of the PSYCHIC WORLD... The UFO experience
                                is generally a SUBJECTIVE ONE, something like RELIGIOUS
                                or EMOTIONAL OCCURRENCES." Astral/Psychic like with the
                                Eckankar Religious Experience too!

                                Isn't it, also, interesting how Klemp uses much of Twitchell's
                                old material for his talks and yet HK has stopped printing
                                Paul's books and other writings! Don't PT's books contain
                                ECK History that should be available for all ECKists to read?
                                What does Klemp Fear... the Truth?

                                Prometheus



                                prometheus wrote:
                                >
                                > Hi All,
                                >
                                > Peter Anton's notes on Klemp's 2005 EWWS talk on the subject of
                                > music is interesting because it is so narrow mined!
                                >
                              • prometheus_973
                                Hi Non-ekster, Didn t Klemp mention Stravinsky in a Seminar talk last year or the year before? I ll have to look for that transcript sometime. Maybe the ekies
                                Message 15 of 17 , Sep 15, 2007
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Hi Non-ekster,
                                  Didn't Klemp mention Stravinsky in
                                  a Seminar talk last year or the year
                                  before? I'll have to look for that
                                  transcript sometime. Maybe the ekies
                                  on HU-Chat will research that too!
                                  Anyway, it's interesting to see where
                                  Klemp is getting his ideas/information
                                  for his talks. It's all recycled!
                                  Even some of the stories sent in by
                                  eckists, which he uses to pad his talks,
                                  are sometimes years old! And yet the
                                  purpose of having a "living" EK Master
                                  is to keep the teachings pure, as well
                                  as, current. How are the teachings kept
                                  "pure" with all the editing HK's done
                                  or current when he recycles stories
                                  in The Mystic World, the H.I. Letter,
                                  or when HK uses old embellished stories
                                  piled up and filed away at the ESC for
                                  his talks?!

                                  On another note: Isn't it interesting
                                  about PT's mention of Yaubl instructing
                                  Wagner on [the 9th Plane of] Agam Des,
                                  and then the comments about the UFOs
                                  and the "coarser vibrations." Twit
                                  obviously got Agam Des confused with
                                  the Astral Plane. This is the problem
                                  when one lies. It's much tougher to
                                  keep lies straight than when one simply
                                  tells the truth. Except, there is No
                                  "truth" with regard to religion and,
                                  especially, in regards to ECKANKAR.

                                  Prometheus

                                  Non ekster wrote:
                                  >
                                  > This is very interesting, especially about Stravinsky. I wonder if
                                  > there isn't yet another unquoted source here, as if Twitchell was
                                  > really a musicologist or something. How often have you heard a
                                  > Stravinsky or Wagner CD played at an eck seminar or worship service?
                                  > Klemp is a bit too tepid for this kind of display.
                                  >
                                  > I remember reading this book, but have since lost track of it. And
                                  > yyeh, why is it unpublished?
                                  >
                                  > Nonekster ; )
                                  >
                                  prometheus wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > PT: Wagner Studied Under Yaubl Sacabi in Agam Des
                                  >
                                  > Hello All,
                                  > I was inspired to look at "ECKANKAR: Compiled Writings,
                                  > Volume I" written by Paul Twitchell in or around 1968-1969.
                                  > [The Copyright is 1975 by Gail T. Gross]
                                  >
                                  > First, here are some comments Twitchell shares about STRAVINSKY:
                                  >
                                  > "...Stravinsky had created the music of discord and inharmonies.
                                  > This kind of music began to break up the fixed patterns of thought
                                  > throughout the world... The disharmony in these pieces of music
                                  > will start breaking up set ideas, opinions and habits that one has.
                                  > The establishment of a new pattern of thinking with the composers
                                  > of music always causes problems in our social structure."
                                  > [pgs. 152-153]
                                  >
                                  > Next, here's, also, some of what Twitchell had to say about Hitler's
                                  > favorite composer:
                                  >
                                  > "WAGNER tried his best to give the world the basic word of the
                                  > SOUND CURRENT. He had studied under the great ECK Master,
                                  > YAUBL SACABI, in the spiritual city of AGAM DES {on the 9th Plane!}.
                                  > He knew the principles of ECKANKAR and tried to apply them...
                                  > When a person who has a good ear for music AND who KNOWS
                                  > the works of ECK listens closely to Wagner's Parsifal and
                                  > Tannhauser, he will hear clearly the sacred word HU in them. It
                                  > can also be heard in his other major works..." [pgs.153-154]
                                  >
                                  > So, how can Klemp say that most music is negative when
                                  > PT claims that Stravinsky is just breaking up the old thought
                                  > patterns of his listeners in order to get them to change to and
                                  > view other patterns. And, that Wagner's music contains the HU!
                                  > Why is Klemp so Negative... other than being a KAL Agent?!
                                  >
                                  > And, isn't it interesting that Wagner (way back then) traveled
                                  > to the 9th PLANE City of Agam Des to study under ECK Master
                                  > Yaubl Sacabi and placed HU in his music! Amazing!
                                  >
                                  > I wonder if Wagner saw any UFO's while at AGAM DES?!
                                  > WHY UFO's AT THE 9th PLANE CITY OF AGAM DES YOU SAY!
                                  > Because Twitchell states in these same COMPILED WRITINGS:
                                  >
                                  > "Many of THOSE {aliens} in the FLYING SAUCERS and those
                                  > who are able to project themselves directly to this earth
                                  > planet COME FIRST TO AGAM DES in order to ACQUAINT
                                  > THEMSELVES with the standard COARSER VIBRATIONS,
                                  > LIKE THOSE WHICH EXIST IN THIS PLANET."
                                  >
                                  > On page 110 Twitchell states: "The logical explanation for
                                  > UFOs is that they are NOT VISITORS FROM OUTER SPACE,
                                  > secret developments by any government, NOR the result
                                  > of mass hysteria. THEY ARE perfectly natural ASTRAL
                                  > PROJECTIONS of the PSYCHIC WORLD... The UFO experience
                                  > is generally a SUBJECTIVE ONE, something like RELIGIOUS
                                  > or EMOTIONAL OCCURRENCES." Astral/Psychic like with the
                                  > Eckankar Religious Experience too!
                                  >
                                  > Isn't it, also, interesting how Klemp uses much of Twitchell's
                                  > old material for his talks and yet HK has stopped printing
                                  > Paul's books and other writings! Don't PT's books contain
                                  > ECK History that should be available for all ECKists to read?
                                  > What does Klemp Fear... the Truth?
                                  >
                                  > Prometheus
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > prometheus wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Hi All,
                                  > >
                                  > > Peter Anton's notes on Klemp's 2005 EWWS talk on the subject of
                                  > > music is interesting because it is so narrow mined!
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • prometheus_973
                                  Hello All, I wonder how many ECKists have read these words of their founder and self-appointed Mahanta, and if they ever think of how this is applied to what
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Sep 15, 2007
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hello All,
                                    I wonder how many ECKists have read these words
                                    of their founder and self-appointed Mahanta, and
                                    if they ever think of how this is applied to what
                                    Klemp is telling them or if there is a conflict?



                                    prometheus wrote:
                                    >
                                    > On page 166 Twitchell states that Claude Debussy was
                                    > "UNCONSCIOUSLY USED by the ECK MASTERS to bring
                                    > back again NATURE MUSIC... the music of the gnomes,
                                    > the fairies, the water spirits, and the spirits of clouds
                                    > and fire."
                                    >
                                    > Apparently PT doesn't mind violating the Law of Soul
                                    > or the Law of Noninterference.
                                    >
                                    > PT: "IF the Living ECK Master THINKS it is fit to do so,
                                    > he ENCOURAGES and LIFTS the the CONSCIOUSNESS
                                    > of those who are musically talented... those who have
                                    > talent and try to USE the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master,
                                    > or the ECK either in IGNORANCE or KNOWINGLY, SUFFER
                                    > in the END WITH TERRIBLE DISASTERS." [pgs.166-167]
                                    >
                                    > It seems PT enjoys using threats! On another note-
                                    > Twitchell only mentions the "MAHANTA, the Living ECK
                                    > Master in the last few pages of this book. Once on page
                                    > 167, once on page 168, and once on page 170!
                                    >
                                    > Here's what Twitchell had to say about the MAHANTA,
                                    > the Living ECK Master on page 170:
                                    >
                                    > "The line of music both Destructive and Positive has
                                    > been somewhat outlined here into the modern age.
                                    > THE FUTURE SAYS that the Influence of Music will bring
                                    > about BENEFITS to THOSE who can ACCEPT them, BUT
                                    > EVENTUALLY the discordant elements WILL CAUSE the
                                    > end of the material worlds in the last cycle, the Kali
                                    > Yuga, to prepare man again for the GOLDEN AGE to
                                    > come and the NEXT MAHANTA, the LIVING ECK MASTER,
                                    > WHO WILL SERVE MANKIND THROUGHOUT the NEXT
                                    > CYCLE of TIME."
                                    >
                                    > What did Twitchell mean by the "NEXT" MAHANTA/LEM
                                    > in the "NEXT" Cycle of Time? Is this why Darwin stated,
                                    > and thought, that PT would be the Mahanta for the next
                                    > 1,000 years or longer?!
                                    >
                                    > In the section titled: THE LONGEVITY OF THE ANCIENT
                                    > ADEPTS (pgs. 81-86) Twitchell seems obsessed with
                                    > living a long life. Twit even mentions many non-adepts
                                    > that he claims lived at 105-1000 or more years. PT
                                    > talks about the "longevity of St. John the Apostle...
                                    > no account has been given of his death..." And, of
                                    > a man who "wrote the Revelations on the Isle of Patmos
                                    > ... living during the Middle Ages... under the name
                                    > Prester John. This would have made him about 1000
                                    > years old." [pg. 83]
                                    >
                                    > PT also states:
                                    > "Longevity is a fact well known to anyone who is capable
                                    > of doing Soul Travel." [pg. 83]
                                    >
                                    > Yet, Twitchell (1908-1971) was only 63 when he died!
                                    > This just goes to show that Twitchell had no idea, at all,
                                    > that he was going to die when he did, or that he planned
                                    > to sacrifice himself (by eating poison) and die at a young
                                    > age. PT just made up a story that someone had intentionally
                                    > poisoned him in a visit to Spain. It was probably just common
                                    > food poisoning that he experienced and this weaken his
                                    > already bad heart.
                                    >
                                    > Here's more interesting info (exaggerations & fact twisting):
                                    >
                                    > "Since the advent of ECKANKAR into the modern world,
                                    > STARTING ABOUT 1935..."
                                    >
                                    > Now, who began this "advent?" Isn't it strange that this
                                    > is the same year that Klemp gives (on ECKANKAR.org)
                                    > for Twitchell's FIRST trip to India where HK claims PT
                                    > met SUDAR SINGH. However, since Klemp gives 1908
                                    > as Twitchell's birth year (Marman gives 1909) this makes
                                    > Twitchell 27 years old in 1935. And, HK states that at
                                    > age 27 is when PT was "exaggerating" and "twisting facts"
                                    > to get into Who's Who in Kentucky! Therefore, this 1935
                                    > date for the ADVENT OF ECKANKAR INTO THE MODERN
                                    > WORLD is a LIE!
                                    >
                                    > Twitchell continues: "It appears that this ancient teaching
                                    > which made its way back into the attention of the world,
                                    > after lying dormant for centuries, is here for a purpose.
                                    > That is to bring greater spiritual strength to all those who
                                    > become its followers." [pg. 123]
                                    >
                                    > Therefore, we now see that ECKANKAR was created by
                                    > Twitchell (in part) to help people to BELIEVE in another
                                    > form of RELIGION so as to help those FOLLOWERS to
                                    > develop "Greater Spiritual Strength." However, shouldn't
                                    > "followers" be set free when they have developed those
                                    > "greater spiritual strengths?"
                                    >
                                    > Or, is it that WHEN these "followers" have gained these
                                    > "SPIRITUAL STRENGTHS" they will realize it and NO LONGER
                                    > NEED TO BE "FOLLOWERS" or NEED ECKANKAR!
                                    >
                                    > One more thing and here's a good one! This seems to have
                                    > been included at the end of the book by Gail. Since she once
                                    > thought he was born in 1922 didn't this make her wonder?
                                    > What kind of lie did PT use to explain this I wonder? On page
                                    > 186 is a paragraph (an excerpt) titled:
                                    >
                                    > "Talks in Dublin, Ireland August, 1928" [when PT was
                                    > 10 years old?] It starts out-
                                    >
                                    > "My greatest problem with people is dealing, not with
                                    > skeptics or non-believers, but with those with failure-
                                    > consciousness..."
                                    >
                                    > Well, Paul certaintly made a success with his newly created
                                    > vocation... whodathunk! Too bad it was short lived for him,
                                    > but a bit longer for Gross. HK really made out! Yep, PT just
                                    > needed enough people to believe and get the ball rolling and
                                    > on the band-wagon and join early on in order to get in on
                                    > the ground floor of his multi-level pyramid (hierarchy) of his
                                    > Eckankar scheme/religion. What's funny is that most chelas
                                    > just get paid with worthless initiations - but I guess they do
                                    > make people feel good and imagine that they have more!
                                    >
                                    > Prometheus
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ************************************************************
                                    > PT: Wagner Studied Under Yaubl Sacabi in Agam Des
                                    > and put HU in his music.
                                    >
                                    > prometheus wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Hello All,
                                    > > I was inspired to look at "ECKANKAR: Compiled Writings,
                                    > > Volume I" written by Paul Twitchell in or around 1968-1969.
                                    > > [The Copyright is 1975 by Gail T. Gross]
                                    > >
                                    > > First, here are some comments Twitchell shares about STRAVINSKY:
                                    > >
                                    > > "...Stravinsky had created the music of discord and inharmonies.
                                    > > This kind of music began to break up the fixed patterns of thought
                                    > > throughout the world... The disharmony in these pieces of music
                                    > > will start breaking up set ideas, opinions and habits that one
                                    has.
                                    > > The establishment of a new pattern of thinking with the composers
                                    > > of music always causes problems in our social structure."
                                    > > [pgs. 152-153]
                                    > >
                                    > > Next, here's, also, some of what Twitchell had to say about
                                    Hitler's
                                    > > favorite composer:
                                    > >
                                    > > "WAGNER tried his best to give the world the basic word of the
                                    > > SOUND CURRENT. He had studied under the great ECK Master,
                                    > > YAUBL SACABI, in the spiritual city of AGAM DES {on the 9th
                                    Plane!}.
                                    > > He knew the principles of ECKANKAR and tried to apply them...
                                    > > When a person who has a good ear for music AND who KNOWS
                                    > > the works of ECK listens closely to Wagner's Parsifal and
                                    > > Tannhauser, he will hear clearly the sacred word HU in them. It
                                    > > can also be heard in his other major works..." [pgs.153-154]
                                    > >
                                    > > So, how can Klemp say that most music is negative when
                                    > > PT claims that Stravinsky is just breaking up the old thought
                                    > > patterns of his listeners in order to get them to change to and
                                    > > view other patterns. And, that Wagner's music contains the HU!
                                    > > Why is Klemp so Negative... other than being a KAL Agent?!
                                    > >
                                    > > And, isn't it interesting that Wagner (way back then) traveled
                                    > > to the 9th PLANE City of Agam Des to study under ECK Master
                                    > > Yaubl Sacabi and placed HU in his music! Amazing!
                                    > >
                                    > > I wonder if Wagner saw any UFO's while at AGAM DES?!
                                    > > WHY UFO's AT THE 9th PLANE CITY OF AGAM DES YOU SAY!
                                    > > Because Twitchell states in these same COMPILED WRITINGS:
                                    > >
                                    > > "Many of THOSE {aliens} in the FLYING SAUCERS and those
                                    > > who are able to project themselves directly to this earth
                                    > > planet COME FIRST TO AGAM DES in order to ACQUAINT
                                    > > THEMSELVES with the standard COARSER VIBRATIONS,
                                    > > LIKE THOSE WHICH EXIST IN THIS PLANET."
                                    > >
                                    > > On page 110 Twitchell states: "The logical explanation for
                                    > > UFOs is that they are NOT VISITORS FROM OUTER SPACE,
                                    > > secret developments by any government, NOR the result
                                    > > of mass hysteria. THEY ARE perfectly natural ASTRAL
                                    > > PROJECTIONS of the PSYCHIC WORLD... The UFO experience
                                    > > is generally a SUBJECTIVE ONE, something like RELIGIOUS
                                    > > or EMOTIONAL OCCURRENCES." Astral/Psychic like with the
                                    > > Eckankar Religious Experience too!
                                    > >
                                    > > Isn't it, also, interesting how Klemp uses much of Twitchell's
                                    > > old material for his talks and yet HK has stopped printing
                                    > > Paul's books and other writings! Don't PT's books contain
                                    > > ECK History that should be available for all ECKists to read?
                                    > > What does Klemp Fear... the Truth?
                                    > >
                                    > > Prometheus
                                    >
                                    > *****************************************************************
                                    >
                                    > > prometheus wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Hi All,
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Peter Anton's notes on Klemp's 2005 EWWS talk on the subject of
                                    > > > music is interesting because it is so narrow mined!
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Twitchell long ago (1966) in "The Way Of Eckankar Series" on
                                    pages
                                    > > > 113, 114, and 121 discussed his preference for classical music.
                                    He
                                    > > > mentions Beethoven, Stravinsky's "The Firebird," and Wagner's
                                    > > > operas.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Klemp is quoted by Peter for having, "got rid of all negative
                                    songs
                                    > > > EVEN if there was only ONE on a CD." [My Caps] This seems like
                                    over-
                                    > > > kill or throwing the baby out with the bath water doesn't it!
                                    Why
                                    > > > not just change tracks! DUH! Klemp's stupid remarks get worse!
                                    > > >
                                    > > > It seems that Klemp, "had a lot of Country Western 'tear
                                    jerker'
                                    > > > songs which he gave them away because someone could benefit
                                    from
                                    > > > them." So Klemp admits to passing "negative songs" on to
                                    someone
                                    > > > else! Is this the KAL or the Mahanta doing this or are they one
                                    and
                                    > > > the same? The same it would seem! Really though... why would
                                    the
                                    > > > Mahanta give negative songs to someone?!
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Peter states that Klemp has finally "started listening to
                                    classical
                                    > > > music." I find this ironic because Klemp (the Mahanta) "has
                                    been
                                    > > > listening to negative tear jerker Country Western music" for
                                    how
                                    > > > many years now? It seems this LEM/Mahanta and "special
                                    incarnation
                                    > > > of the SUGMAD" (Eckankar Lexicon) is not living up to his PR,
                                    and
                                    > > > talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk!
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Klemp states that the current Mahanta consciousness is more
                                    > > > advanced than Twitchell's was, but Twitchell listened to
                                    classical
                                    > > > music in 1966! Why has Klemp been such a slacker for all these
                                    years?
                                    > > >
                                    > > > However, is all Classical music positive? And, is all Country
                                    > > > Western music negative? For instance, Beethoven's Ninth,
                                    Mozart's
                                    > > > Requiem, and Stravinsky's Death of Petrouchka (IMO) are not all
                                    that
                                    > > > positive. And are some of Wagner's operas positive and are some
                                    > > > negative? Wagner was a very dramatic conductor and his works as
                                    a
                                    > > > composer were dramatic (emotional) as well. Would you throw out
                                    a
                                    > > > whole CD because there was one opera that you didn't like? See
                                    how
                                    > > > stupid of a statement that was by Klemp! Yet, Eckists will
                                    never see
                                    > > > this because they don't truly listen or question anything.
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    ******************************************************************
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Anyway, I'll end with the lyrics to a song performed by Johnny
                                    Cash.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Highwayman
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I was a highwayman. Along the coach roads I did ride
                                    > > > With sword and pistol by my side
                                    > > > Many a young maid lost her baubles to my trade
                                    > > > Many a soldier shed his lifeblood on my blade
                                    > > > The bastards hung me in the spring of twenty-five
                                    > > > But I am still alive.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I was a sailor. I was born on the tide
                                    > > > And with the seas I did abide.
                                    > > > I sailed a schooner round the Horn to Mexico
                                    > > > I went aloft and furled the mainsail in a blow
                                    > > > And when the yards broke off they said I got killed
                                    > > > But I am living still.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I was a dam builder across the river deep and wide
                                    > > > Where steel and water did collide
                                    > > > A place called Boulder on the wild Colorado
                                    > > > I slipped and fell into wet concrete below
                                    > > > They buried me in that great tomb that knows no sound
                                    > > > But I am still around...I'll always be around..and around and
                                    > > > around and around and around
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I fly a starship across the Universe divide
                                    > > > And when I reach the other side
                                    > > > I'll find a place to rest my spirit if I can
                                    > > > Perhaps I may become a highwayman again
                                    > > > Or I may simply be a single drop of rain
                                    > > > But I will remain
                                    > > > And I'll be back again, and again and again and again and
                                    again..
                                    > > >
                                    *****************************************************************
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Maybe Klemp threw out one too many Country Western CDs before
                                    > > > listening again to this one... or would it have mattered to
                                    him?
                                    > > > Probably not... he once admitted that he never was much for
                                    > > > listening.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Prometheus
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.