Re: EK: Followers to Become H.I. Leaders - And Never Truly Free!
- Hi Steve,
Yes, those ECK initiations are spiritually bogus.
This is why EK chelas have to rationalize, imagine,
and pretend. At first one will blame oneself and
think it is them. Guilt and shame and self doubts
are what seem to make sense when initiations
or inner experiences don't come through. Afterall,
Klemp never takes responsibility for the bad or for
chelas Not having inner experiences or not getting
an initiation, but HK will always take credit for the
"good" that normally befalls chelas or anyone for
that matter! Eventually, long-time chelas will learn
to rationalize more and more in order to justify their
positions and opinions. These H.I.s lose their perspective
as they become more and more deluded and confined
to the limits of EK Dogma. They have given up looking
for Truth because they have been misdirected, lied to,
and confused for so long that they now just look for
simple answers in Klemp's simple-minded words and
stories. In other words... they have given up, but can't
bring themselves to leave ECKANKAR. They have become
attached to their "Positions" and "Initiation Rank." They
NEED the earthly admiration and friendships they have
invested in and cultivated over the years. I don't blame
them. Change, Individual Spiritual Freedom, and Self-Mastery
is a difficult choice when it comes to losing friendships
and causing disharmony within a family. However, one
cannot Continue to advance Spiritually within the confines
of being a Religious Follower... regardless of the Religion!
BTW- DOUG MARMAN-A FEW RESPONSES-TS 2/8/2004
is on the LINKS Page.
> Good Post! and right on the money!prometheus wrote:
> It is my belief that all initiations in eck are bogus with nothing
> to back them up. Does anyone anywhere really get an initiation into
> the spiritual worlds?
> > Hello All,
> > I enjoyed this post. Yes, ECKists are discouraged
> > from questioning anything. Questioning EK Dogma
> > and it's validity or the works of Paul Twitchell are
> > a NO NO! Also, ECKists are Not EVEN Permitted to
> > say Darwin Gross' name! And DG WAS the 972nd
> > LEM/Mahanta! Thus, EKists are certainly NOT
> > PERMITTED to discuss anything pertaining to
> > or events prior to DG's expulsion (excommunication)!
> > HK's spin and threat is that Anyone Discussing DG
> > or Questioning the validity of anything pertaining
> > to the ECKANKAR Religion indicates a "spiritual
> > immaturity." And, therefore, when a Chela is "spiritually
> > immature" they Are Not Grounded In The ECK Works
> > and, thus, Will Not (normally) be allowed to teach/
> > facilitate Book Discussions, or Satsang Classes, etc.
> > These Chelas, too, Will Not (normally) be given "settler"
> > or "explorer" positions of Authority, and their Initiations
> > Will Be Delayed or frozen by the ESC and/or RESA. This
> > is a form of Black Listing and Shunning that all religions
> > practice when followers question the "Authority" of their
> > Religious Leaders. Blind faith and an imagination of heaven,
> > angels, masters, prophets, etc. works well for all religions!
> > Klemp's re-editing, eliminating, and cover-up of Twitchell's
> > sources, and works is simple damage control. This cleansing
> > has eliminated many of the blatant contradictions within the
> > (revised) Dogma. However, Klemp's Lutheran roots has also
> > given ECKANKAR a more intolerant Christian influence.
> > In ECKANKAR there are two goals that are promoted
> > over all others - SELF-MASTERY and SPIRITUAL FREEDOM
> > IN THIS LIFETIME.
> > However, these two are impossible to achieve due to
> > the way in which the EK INITIATIONS are designed. Only
> > the "MALE" LEM/Mahanta can achieve this Self-Mastery
> > and Spiritual Freedom through Initiation! Otherwise the
> > highest EK initiation possible (while in a physical body)
> > is the 9th. And, only a handful of Chelas become 8th
> > and 9th Initiates!
> > The truth is that ECKANKAR practically forces followers to
> > jump through hoops to become leaders via trainings,
> > positions, etc. in order for them to acquire initiations.
> > And, these initiations are to lead to and/or indicate higher
> > consciousness and spirituality. Of course, Trained Leaders
> > also bring in more followers and revenue ($$$). It's really
> > just a sham because the longer one remains in ECKANKAR
> > and the higher the initiation rank merely indicates the
> > LACK of Spiritual Freedom and Self-Mastery and Individuality
> > (uniqueness of Soul) that these Follower/Leaders have!
> > Their length of Membership and Rank shows how deluded,
> > egotistical, and power hungry they have become.
> > Thus, ECKANKAR wants, needs, and forces Chelas to conform,
> > although, this religion was/is proclaimed to be an Individual
> > Path that leads to greater Freedom. However, the longer one
> > stays in ECKANKAR the more one's original focus is lost, and
> > the more one loses their ability to discern truth from fiction.
> > Critical thinking, logic, common sense, and rational thought
> > are replaced by blind faith, misplaced trust, and Dogmatic
> > imagination. In truth ALL ECKists are trained to become
> > FOLLOWERS of their earthly leader Klemp (the LEM/Mahanta).
> > NEVER will ECKists be permitted to leave the influence of the
> > Mahanta even in some "Future" of their imagined Higher Inner
> > Planes. ECKANKAR promotes cycles of of redundant and limited
> > imagings with a lot of promises - prophets - angel/masters
> > to keep people distracted from the Truth and of their own
> > abilities as Free Souls - including their own Self-Mastery
> > without the need for a "Religious/Spiritual Leader" stealing
> > their money, their Reality, and original goals as Seekers.
> > Prometheus
> > Comments to the posts by Mish and Liz.
> > >
> > > Years ago people were not able to question
> > > without the fear of being excommunicated, or
> > > even worse. People who went about translating
> > > the Bible into common language so that more
> > > people could read it besides the clergy alone,
> > > what do you think happened to them?
> > >
> > > Think about it this way, in a sense it was like
> > > letting people know what the clergy knew, and
> > > giving everybody the right to look at the records
> > > that their religion was based on.
> > >
> > > At first it wasn't popular and people were
> > > burned at the stake for translating the Bible
> > > into the common language. Even for having
> > > a Bible in their possession!
> > >
> > > Eventually word got out and the printing
> > > press came along so that people were able
> > > to read the Bible for themselves.
> > >
> > > But you know what? With all of the sects
> > > and isms since that time, people continue
> > > to excommunicate or shun others who ask
> > > the wrong questions. This is most peculiar
> > > if you ask me. Not that everybody is doing
> > > this kind of thing to everybody else, but the
> > > fear to ask questions would probably not be
> > > so powerful if it were not reinforced by all of
> > > the people who are afraid to do exactly that.
> > >
> > > Peer pressure is a strong influence, and
> > > being the minority often means being at the
> > > mercy of the majority. It doesn't matter if
> > > the majority is right or wrong, but it comes
> > > down to numbers amounting to power. Even
> > > monetary wealth where the rich - those with
> > > the most cash - win most of the government.
> > >
> > > So what I'm alluding to is that people tend
> > > to follow the majority. A form of "herd instinct"
> > > or just plain wanting to be accepted, to fit in
> > > and have the freedoms that other people do.
> > > In the past, fitting in meant staying alive! It
> > > didn't matter what you agreed with, so long
> > > as you agreed with those in power. Those in
> > > the majority.
> > >
> > > The Gutenburg Bible was printed in 1455.
> > > The crusading movent ended in 1464:
> > >
> > > "When Constantinople fell in 1453 and Pius II
> > > was unable to initiate a further campaign before
> > > his death in 1464, the crusading movement came
> > > to an end."
> > >
> > > [The Perennial Dictionary of World Religions,
> > > by Keith Crim]
> > >
> > > The birth of Guru Nanak and the founding
> > > of Sikhism reportedly began in 1469:
> > >
> > > Sikhism is the youngest of the World Religions,
> > > barely 500 years old. It was founded by Siri Guru
> > > Nanak Dev Ji in 1469 who laid the basic principles
> > > of Sikhism. It offered the people a simple Sikh
> > > religion teaching "Oneness of God", whose name
> > > is TRUTH. Nine Gurus followed him who all reinforced
> > > and added to what was taught by the first Guru. After
> > > which in 1708, the holy book of the Sikhs, The Siri
> > > GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI was Proclaimed to be the
> > > only Guru by the last Guru, Siri Guru Gobind Singh Ji.
> > > This holy book embodies the philosophy and fundamentals
> > > of Sikhism. It is the only holy book of a major religion
> > > which was written and authenticated by its founders.
> > *** Try this address-
> > http://www.sikh.net/publications/View/roots.htm
> > ***
> > > The only holy book of a major religion
> > > which was written and authenticated by
> > > its founders. That sounds like a first to
> > > me.
> > >
> > > Etznab
- Hey Prometheus, guess I should explain my thoughts further on this topic?Klemp and Company were in fact counseled on what should and should not be shared publicly. They (he) was also advised on what to remove from the *history* of eckankar, pertaining to PT and DG. Buying up old material so the new members won't have access, warning members to stay off the computer... All part of keeping their membership in the dark. Some listen, some don't. But there will always be the gullable willing to put on those rose colored glasses and develop tunnel vision.So how does a god man down play or avoid having to deal with *issues*? The org pays these bottom duelers (eck lawyers) big money to keep them out of trouble! Did someone advise klemp in 1983, I give up! But I do know back in the day, we were warned not to keep any of DG's material, burn it all.... Then warning of what would happen if the membership didn't comply, as you mentioned how the org put *fear* into the membership. "spiritual immaturity" . And that lam excuse that Klemp is of a higher consciousness than the godman that invented the path... Another example of why we shouldn't hang on to old PT material! Not sure what klemp will pull out of his A** in future years; maybe PT will be in the back ground like those FLEMs? Hey what's the story on the next FLEM announcement? Oct is coming up real soon.....And what about when he is too darn sick to show up at all.... Or god forbid, what if he kicks the bucket? Will they put a talking head up on a big screen at the seminars and claim klemp is alive and well, use a curtain to cover up the controls going on behind the scenes? LOL now that I know the truth behind the lies, it will be very entertaining when they end up having to announce a new LEM. Who is willing to carry on the BS / Rod? Maybe the so called LEM is training isn't ready because, well he just isn't willing to take on the burden, or maybe.... There isn't anyone in line, and klemp would like to go crawl under a rock somewhere and disappear? Is the org / business willable?Conspiracy... To cover up the dirty little secrets of the org. ;-) Klemp isn't smart enough to handle this without lawyers. Though every time he opens his mouth he still looks stupid! Lawyers aren't paid to increase the IQ of a godman... Shouldn't he already be at a level far more superior than the population of the entire universe! Wonder what initiation level these lawyers are at, to be able to have some control over how the godman handles his org / business?LizPrometheus wrote:Anyway, I doubt that Klemp is forbidden by law or settlementto say anything negative about Gross after re-reading the1983 H.I. Meeting comments that Klemp makes involving DG.These comments by Klemp are both negative and misleading.Prometheus wrote:HK's spin and threat is that Anyone Discussing DGor Questioning the validity of anything pertainingto the ECKANKAR Religion indicates a "spiritualimmaturity."Liz wrote:Actually one of the easiest ways to control the group, is by claimingthe above... but the truth of the matter is, HK was advised by hisLawyers that he should be very careful of what eckankrap and Klemp putsout there in the eck community concerning DG. And vis a versa, DG isrestricted on what he can share or say due to certain laws.>Klemp has found a way to threaten his flock, all the while alsoprotecting his rock pile of gold. *Fear* is the ultimate controlfactor; it works in most cases....
- Hi Liz,
You make some good points. I wonder- What is Gross still
getting paid per month from ECKANKAR (HK) for keeping
his mouth shut? Shouldn't HK share this information with
the membership? I think so! Why hide it or ignore the fact
that people want to know the details even today! There has
to be a settlement and monthly check to Gross right?!
Otherwise, Darwin and company would be online attacking
Klemp and sharing juicy little tid-bits of info on Klemp and
his crew. The lack of such activity indicates that hush money
is still being paid out.
On the other hand... since DG fell from Grace AFTER 10/22/81
could it be that he has NOW been reinstated as an ECK Master
by the SUGMAD. Afterall, Klemp doesn't know everything about
all of the ECK Masters, or Who they are, or of their status.
If HK did know everything he'd know the name of that
"Unknown ECK Master" that he has written about.
So, Why doesn't Klemp reach out to Gross and recognize him
as an ECK Master? Has DG Not atoned for his sins, or were they
really Klemp's sins. DG lived Large and HK lives Small and that
was DG's real sin because spiritual people can't disregard money
by spending it and buying a private jet, or having an expense
account. Hmmmmm I wonder how HK spends his money? Does
he donate money to the local community to help others? How
much if any? Where are the financial statements? Is there a
reason this is not shared with the General EK Membership
who donate their hard earned money via their Membership
Donation, Book, CD, Audio & Video, and jewerly purchases.
Of course these are just a few of the income sources of the
EK org. Why not share this info at the World Wide Seminar
to 2nds and above?
As far as Joan becoming a FLEM or Co-LEM... well, it's still
possible. HK can still be the Mahanta and Joan can become
a 12th and possibly a 13th for the rest of her days. But then,
she would be next in line to take over as the Mahanta if Klemp
croaked (like PT) without a Male successor being named. Or,
maybe HK has a Will (that he updates) where he does make
a Male selection for the 974th (4th) position. Except, if Joan
is the 974th LEM.
> Hey Prometheus, guess I should explain my thoughts further on this topic?
> Klemp and Company were in fact counseled on what should and should not be
> shared publicly. They (he) was also advised on what to remove from the
> *history* of eckankar, pertaining to PT and DG. Buying up old material so
> the new members won't have access, warning members to stay off the computer.
> . All part of keeping their membership in the dark. Some listen, some don
> t. But there will always be the gullable willing to put on those rose
> colored glasses and develop tunnel vision.
> So how does a god man down play or avoid having to deal with *issues*?
> The org pays these bottom duelers (eck lawyers) big money to keep them out
> of trouble! Did someone advise klemp in 1983, I give up! But I do know
> back in the day, we were warned not to keep any of DG's material, burn it
> all.... Then warning of what would happen if the membership didn't comply,
> as you mentioned how the org put *fear* into the membership. "spiritual
> immaturity" . And that lam excuse that Klemp is of a higher consciousness
> than the godman that invented the path... Another example of why we shouldn
> t hang on to old PT material! Not sure what klemp will pull out of his A**
> in future years; maybe PT will be in the back ground like those FLEMs?
> Hey what's the story on the next FLEM announcement? Oct is coming up real
> And what about when he is too darn sick to show up at all.... Or god forbid
> what if he kicks the bucket? Will they put a talking head up on a big
> screen at the seminars and claim klemp is alive and well, use a curtain to
> cover up the controls going on behind the scenes? LOL now that I know the
> truth behind the lies, it will be very entertaining when they end up having
> to announce a new LEM. Who is willing to carry on the BS / Rod? Maybe the
> so called LEM is training isn't ready because, well he just isn't willing to
> take on the burden, or maybe.... There isn't anyone in line, and klemp
> would like to go crawl under a rock somewhere and disappear? Is the org /
> business willable?
> Conspiracy... To cover up the dirty little secrets of the org. ;-) Klemp
> isn't smart enough to handle this without lawyers. Though every time he
> opens his mouth he still looks stupid! Lawyers aren't paid to increase the
> IQ of a godman... Shouldn't he already be at a level far more superior than
> the population of the entire universe! Wonder what initiation level these
> lawyers are at, to be able to have some control over how the godman handles
> his org / business?
> Prometheus wrote:
> Anyway, I doubt that Klemp is forbidden by law or settlement
> to say anything negative about Gross after re-reading the
> 1983 H.I. Meeting comments that Klemp makes involving DG.
> These comments by Klemp are both negative and misleading.
> Prometheus wrote:
> HK's spin and threat is that Anyone Discussing DG
> or Questioning the validity of anything pertaining
> to the ECKANKAR Religion indicates a "spiritual
> Liz wrote:
> Actually one of the easiest ways to control the group, is by claiming
> the above... but the truth of the matter is, HK was advised by his
> Lawyers that he should be very careful of what eckankrap and Klemp puts
> out there in the eck community concerning DG. And vis a versa, DG is
> restricted on what he can share or say due to certain laws.
> Klemp has found a way to threaten his flock, all the while also
> protecting his rock pile of gold. *Fear* is the ultimate control
> factor; it works in most cases....