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Re: EK: Followers to Become H.I. Leaders - And Never Truly Free!

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  • mishmisha9
    Hi, All! Prometheus wrote: ECKists are discouraged from questioning anything. Questioning EK Dogma and it s validity or the works of Paul Twitchell are a NO
    Message 1 of 18 , Aug 7, 2007
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      Hi, All!

      Prometheus wrote:
      "ECKists are discouraged from questioning anything.
      Questioning EK Dogma and it's validity or the works of
      Paul Twitchell are a NO NO!"

      Harold Klemp uses his power of "eck authority" to keep
      his chelas inline. He uses fear and persecution that because
      he hold "the rod of eck!" LOL! Those who believe in the eck
      teachings and the validity of the bogus eck initiations certainly
      are aware of what is in store for them if they ask the wrong
      questions or dare to challenge the eck beliefs and eck org,
      especially Harold Klemp. We all most certainly know what
      happened to Ford Johnson and Graham Forsyth when
      Graham's journal was brought to Klemp's attention!!
      How dare them!! LOL!

      Below I am reposting a couple of posts--one from A.R.E.
      that tells what happens to initiations of those who leave
      eckankar and try to come back. The other is a book review
      of "Those Wonderful ECK Masters" posted on Amazon.com
      which tells about Klemp calls chelas "losers" when they
      complain or question the eck teachings.

      As Prometheus wrote in his post, chelas will never be "truly
      free!" Eckankar doesn't produce what it promises--it just
      suppresses and controls those who are searching for spiritual
      truths and enlightenment! Eckankar is of the dark ages! LOL!
      Here are the cross postings as well as a few more comments
      from me at the end.

      From A.R.E., Sept. 2005, a poster named Simon reposted this
      message from HCS, this is what Harold Klemp does to those
      who question his authority and the eck teachings:

      Before reading Ford's book, I commented to my wife how it
      seemed to me that the greater of thrust of the Eck writings
      had come to be about attaining and retaining membership,
      and that in addition to that, there seemed to be a pervasive
      undercurrent of fear being communicated. The latest
      quarterly publication came in the mail. As I have disengaged
      from Eckankar, my wife almost immediately recycled it, but
      chose not to. I found the following interesting. The cover story
      by Harold discusses how to talk about or share Eckankar. An
      article that is nearly 2 pages long discusses how one learns to
      get past their fear or discomfort in regard to talking about
      Eckankar to others. The Wisdom Notes on the last page talks
      about 3 different cases having to do with leaving or coming to
      the Eck teachings. In the Wisdom Note, Harold states the following:
      "Several years ago, the Kal (negative power) tricked a chela into
      believing that her Satsang teacher was the next Living ECK
      Master. Nevertheless, her teacher couldn't have been more
      wrong in his presumption. His ECK Satsang class largely
      became his disciples, and at ECK Worldwide Seminars, he and
      they came to announce his mastership. Most ECKists saw through
      him at once; yet some didn't." "Naturally, the ringleaders were all
      suspended from ECKANKAR for an indefinite time. And that's how
      things stood until recently." "In due time, disappointment with the
      claims of this 'minimaster' allowed this chela and her husband to
      see and hear the Light and Sound of God beyond the veil of their
      illusion. Now they wished to return to ECKANKAR. The husband,
      who'd not been an ECKist before, started his ECK discourse study
      as a new member. The wife, however, expected to return as a Fourth
      Initiate, her former level." "The spiritual question, though, was,
      what number of people had she misled while a missionary for the
      Kal? She was partly responsible for all the karma they had created,
      and were creating."
      "Furthermore, she bore an ongoing responsibility for the negative
      deeds of every single one of them as long as they remained outside
      of ECK." "This meant that she now carried too much karma to qualify
      for the Fourth Initiation. It was also too much karma for the Third
      Initiation. It was likewise for the first Initiation. She did qualify as a
      new ECK member, like her husband, providing she was allowed to
      return at all." "She'd once made a very wrong spiritual decision. Her
      problems were all of her own doing."
      I was wondering if this in part referenced the experiences relating to ?
      Graham Forsythe as well as Ford. I remember Ford writing about ?
      wondering how it was that he might have been in error, simply by
      being honest with himself in regard to his own questions and
      experiences, as well as those of others. It seems that Harold is
      suggesting that there can be a grave penalty for not knowing what
      we do not know, and daring to be honest about it. I'm not sure I
      would advocate such a path as this to those I love and care about
      (e.g. my children), where simply being honest with one's self can
      bring about the worst of circumstances. Better that they never get
      too close to the terrible fire or Eck? Interestingly, there are two new
      books for sale by Harold titled "Those Wonderful Eck Masters" and
      "Truth Has No Secrets".
      (end of A.R.E. post)


      Book review posted on Amazon.com :
      Eckankar's biggest pitch is to prove this spriritual reality to
      yourself! However, brainwashing along with mental and emotional
      imbalance can cause delusional perception. These mental
      constructs produce the desired results (visitation by Eck Masters)
      and this is what these people want and need in order to alliviate
      their fears (of death) and give them hope and belief in a religion or
      Masters that will answer all of their inner questions. Outer and
      on-going questioning is discouraged in Eckankar because it can't
      answer the contradictions in its dogma. Here is an excert from
      the book (pg.211) that shows the unloving author and cult leader
      Harold Klemp in his true light.

      "Belief in the Master's ever-present company relies upon an
      individual's degree of unfoldment. Actual inner experiences help
      one move to a greater understanding of the ways of divine
      revelation. But if he chooses to hang on to shopworn karmic debts
      due to, say, an inability to control some mental passion or habit like
      anger, then his spiritual momentum stops. It's that simple. Of course,
      a headstrong follower always tries to fix blame on the Mahanta, the
      Living Eck Master when his attemps to advance in ECK comes to
      nothing."

      "But such an attitude changes nothing. The individual is a loser and
      will continue to be a loser until he adopts the practices of a winner."

      "I'm used to such misdirected slings. They go with my position. I
      realize that at some point an individual will break free of his holding
      pattern and again soar higher. It's when he's seen that all
      responsibility for his unfoldment lies with him alone."

      Here is another Eckankar contradiction! How can an individual Eckist
      ever break free of the need for their Mahanta (Klemp) when always
      needing that next initiation. Even the 9th-12th initiates (and former
      Mahantas) are still under the authority of Klemp!
      (end of Amazon book review)

      On another note, I read recent post on A.R.E. in which Doug
      Marman wrote he hasn't read Harold's book "Those Wonderful
      ECK Masters" yet. He seems very unfamiliar with this book
      written in 2005, yet Marman has written another book
      himself recently espousing the truth--the whole truth about
      eckankar! Now, it puzzles me that Doug appears uninterested
      in what Harold Klemp is writing, especially the book "Those
      Wonderful ECK Masters." Since Klemp has gone to great lengths
      to prove the validity of these eck masters, wouldn't Marman find
      Klemp's book important to what he himself has written???
      Wouldn't excerpts from HK's book depict the whole truth with a
      current context? Or does the whole truth about eckankar as
      Marman sees it only lie in its past? It seems to me that there
      is a large group of Twitchell eckists who are disregarding and
      ignoring Klemp's dogma! This has to be a bigger headache
      for Klemp and the org than we detractors. LOL!

      Mish


      ##################################################
      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
      "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hello All,
      > I enjoyed this post. Yes, ECKists are discouraged
      > from questioning anything. Questioning EK Dogma
      > and it's validity or the works of Paul Twitchell are
      > a NO NO! Also, ECKists are Not EVEN Permitted to
      > say Darwin Gross' name! And DG WAS the 972nd
      > LEM/Mahanta! Thus, EKists are certainly NOT
      > PERMITTED to discuss anything pertaining to
      > or events prior to DG's expulsion (excommunication)!
      >
      > HK's spin and threat is that Anyone Discussing DG
      > or Questioning the validity of anything pertaining
      > to the ECKANKAR Religion indicates a "spiritual
      > immaturity." And, therefore, when a Chela is "spiritually
      > immature" they Are Not Grounded In The ECK Works
      > and, thus, Will Not (normally) be allowed to teach/
      > facilitate Book Discussions, or Satsang Classes, etc.
      > These Chelas, too, Will Not (normally) be given "settler"
      > or "explorer" positions of Authority, and their Initiations
      > Will Be Delayed or frozen by the ESC and/or RESA. This
      > is a form of Black Listing and Shunning that all religions
      > practice when followers question the "Authority" of their
      > Religious Leaders. Blind faith and an imagination of heaven,
      > angels, masters, prophets, etc. works well for all religions!
      >
      > Klemp's re-editing, eliminating, and cover-up of Twitchell's
      > sources, and works is simple damage control. This cleansing
      > has eliminated many of the blatant contradictions within the
      > (revised) Dogma. However, Klemp's Lutheran roots has also
      > given ECKANKAR a more intolerant Christian influence.
      >
      > In ECKANKAR there are two goals that are promoted
      > over all others - SELF-MASTERY and SPIRITUAL FREEDOM
      > IN THIS LIFETIME.
      >
      > However, these two are impossible to achieve due to
      > the way in which the EK INITIATIONS are designed. Only
      > the "MALE" LEM/Mahanta can achieve this Self-Mastery
      > and Spiritual Freedom through Initiation! Otherwise the
      > highest EK initiation possible (while in a physical body)
      > is the 9th. And, only a handful of Chelas become 8th
      > and 9th Initiates!
      >
      > The truth is that ECKANKAR practically forces followers to
      > jump through hoops to become leaders via trainings,
      > positions, etc. in order for them to acquire initiations.
      > And, these initiations are to lead to and/or indicate higher
      > consciousness and spirituality. Of course, Trained Leaders
      > also bring in more followers and revenue ($$$). It's really
      > just a sham because the longer one remains in ECKANKAR
      > and the higher the initiation rank merely indicates the
      > LACK of Spiritual Freedom and Self-Mastery and Individuality
      > (uniqueness of Soul) that these Follower/Leaders have!
      > Their length of Membership and Rank shows how deluded,
      > egotistical, and power hungry they have become.
      >
      > Thus, ECKANKAR wants, needs, and forces Chelas to conform,
      > although, this religion was/is proclaimed to be an Individual
      > Path that leads to greater Freedom. However, the longer one
      > stays in ECKANKAR the more one's original focus is lost, and
      > the more one loses their ability to discern truth from fiction.
      > Critical thinking, logic, common sense, and rational thought
      > are replaced by blind faith, misplaced trust, and Dogmatic
      > imagination. In truth ALL ECKists are trained to become
      > FOLLOWERS of their earthly leader Klemp (the LEM/Mahanta).
      > NEVER will ECKists be permitted to leave the influence of the
      > Mahanta even in some "Future" of their imagined Higher Inner
      > Planes. ECKANKAR promotes cycles of of redundant and limited
      > imagings with a lot of promises - prophets - angel/masters
      > to keep people distracted from the Truth and of their own
      > abilities as Free Souls - including their own Self-Mastery
      > without the need for a "Religious/Spiritual Leader" stealing
      > their money, their Reality, and original goals as Seekers.
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Comments to the posts by Mish and Liz.
      > >
      > > Years ago people were not able to question
      > > without the fear of being excommunicated, or
      > > even worse. People who went about translating
      > > the Bible into common language so that more
      > > people could read it besides the clergy alone,
      > > what do you think happened to them?
      > >
      > > Think about it this way, in a sense it was like
      > > letting people know what the clergy knew, and
      > > giving everybody the right to look at the records
      > > that their religion was based on.
      > >
      > > At first it wasn't popular and people were
      > > burned at the stake for translating the Bible
      > > into the common language. Even for having
      > > a Bible in their possession!
      > >
      > > Eventually word got out and the printing
      > > press came along so that people were able
      > > to read the Bible for themselves.
      > >
      > > But you know what? With all of the sects
      > > and isms since that time, people continue
      > > to excommunicate or shun others who ask
      > > the wrong questions. This is most peculiar
      > > if you ask me. Not that everybody is doing
      > > this kind of thing to everybody else, but the
      > > fear to ask questions would probably not be
      > > so powerful if it were not reinforced by all of
      > > the people who are afraid to do exactly that.
      > >
      > > Peer pressure is a strong influence, and
      > > being the minority often means being at the
      > > mercy of the majority. It doesn't matter if
      > > the majority is right or wrong, but it comes
      > > down to numbers amounting to power. Even
      > > monetary wealth where the rich - those with
      > > the most cash - win most of the government.
      > >
      > > So what I'm alluding to is that people tend
      > > to follow the majority. A form of "herd instinct"
      > > or just plain wanting to be accepted, to fit in
      > > and have the freedoms that other people do.
      > > In the past, fitting in meant staying alive! It
      > > didn't matter what you agreed with, so long
      > > as you agreed with those in power. Those in
      > > the majority.
      > >
      > > The Gutenburg Bible was printed in 1455.
      > > The crusading movent ended in 1464:
      > >
      > > "When Constantinople fell in 1453 and Pius II
      > > was unable to initiate a further campaign before
      > > his death in 1464, the crusading movement came
      > > to an end."
      > >
      > > [The Perennial Dictionary of World Religions,
      > > by Keith Crim]
      > >
      > > The birth of Guru Nanak and the founding
      > > of Sikhism reportedly began in 1469:
      > >
      > > Sikhism is the youngest of the World Religions,
      > > barely 500 years old. It was founded by Siri Guru
      > > Nanak Dev Ji in 1469 who laid the basic principles
      > > of Sikhism. It offered the people a simple Sikh
      > > religion teaching "Oneness of God", whose name
      > > is TRUTH. Nine Gurus followed him who all reinforced
      > > and added to what was taught by the first Guru. After
      > > which in 1708, the holy book of the Sikhs, The Siri
      > > GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI was Proclaimed to be the
      > > only Guru by the last Guru, Siri Guru Gobind Singh Ji.
      > > This holy book embodies the philosophy and fundamentals
      > > of Sikhism. It is the only holy book of a major religion
      > > which was written and authenticated by its founders.
      >
      > *** Try this address-
      > http://www.sikh.net/publications/View/roots.htm
      > ***
      >
      > > The only holy book of a major religion
      > > which was written and authenticated by
      > > its founders. That sounds like a first to
      > > me.
      > >
      > > Etznab
      >
    • prometheus_973
      Yes, it is strange that Marman tends to dwell in the past with a Twitchell/Radhasoami view of ECKANKAR versus the current/sanitized and Christian-like view of
      Message 2 of 18 , Aug 7, 2007
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        Yes, it is strange that Marman tends to dwell in the past
        with a Twitchell/Radhasoami view of ECKANKAR versus
        the current/sanitized and Christian-like view of Klemp's.

        However, on Ford's The Truth-Seeker site Marman replies
        to Nacal [ME] on 2/8/2004 by making some comments
        that he NOW probably wishes he hadn't made.

        http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.asp

        *On Myth-

        Nacal: "Is what Harold teaches (Eckankar) a Myth?
        Since I brought the subject up can you tell me if
        the Holocaust was a Myth or Not?"

        Doug: "... Yes, I would say a lot of what is taught
        about Eckankar is a Myth. Yes, I think that a lot of
        what people think about the Holocaust is made up
        of Myth as well... History is largely made up of Myth."

        So, will Marman, in his new book, tell the "Whole
        Truth" about the MYTH of ECKANKAR as well? Probably
        Not!

        *On Twitchell's Birth Year and Mysterious Creations-

        Doug: "Obviously we now know where he came from
        and was born (Paducah, Kentucky)... We also know
        when he was born (1909)... I think he liked the idea
        that his past was Mysterious, and he helped to Create
        this Mysterious Past."

        Will Doug share this too in his new book? How can DM's
        Whole Truth about ECKANKAR Not Show that Twitchell
        Created his own Mysterious Past as Doug claims? Also,
        the 1909 Birth Year (Doug gives) for PT means that at
        age 27 the year was 1936. Therefore when Klemp states
        (on Eckankar.org) that Twitch was "exaggerating" and
        "twisting facts" at age 27 to get into Who's Who in Kentucky
        and that PT had never traveled far from home then - How
        could PT have met Sudar Singh on his "first" trip to India
        in 1935?!

        *Rebazar Tarzs-

        Nacal is refering to a quote about RT: 'But it is a fact that
        his Master Rebazar Tarzs, an ancient Tibetan lama, who
        appears to be in his early forties, was a young man when
        Columbus discovered America.'

        "Now, was that really a 'fact,' or a delusional belief, or a
        deliberate lie? Or, is it that," 'There is a need of the people
        to believe in the Magic of a Saviour, and Sri Paul Twitchell
        knows this and acts out the part.' [quote from Difficulties
        Of Becoming The LEM]

        Doug: "It certainly is No Fact, since there are No Records
        Nor Anything Else To Prove That REBAZAR TARZS Even
        Exists, Never Mind How Old He Really Is. However, there
        is no proof that it is a lie either. It certainly sounds far-
        fetched."

        Marman seems to cast some doubt on the existance of
        Rebazar. Apparently he's never had a personal experience
        or visitation to erase these doubts. Maybe he needs to use
        his Imagination in order to Believe like most other chelas do!
        I wonder what DM has to say about RT, in his new book, that
        would contradict the doubts he casts in this 2004 post on TS?

        * Marman on EK Initiations-

        Nacal: "Are the Initiations in Eckankar Valid as a Means to
        Greater Spiritual Growth over those who are Non-ECKists?
        Or, is this a Myth too?"

        Doug: "I think the initiations are a mixed bag... But they have
        become filled with Myths as well. I can tell you that Self-
        Realization is rare, H.I. or not. The Initiation Level Doesn't
        Prove Anything... I dont't think Anyone should be Judging
        another person's Worth or Truth by what Initiation Level
        They Are At. INCLUDING THE MASTER."

        Thus, Doug's opinion is that "Self-Realization is rare, H.I.
        or not" and "initiation level doesn't prove anything" and
        that NO ONE should be "judging another person's worth or
        truth" as to their "initiation level... including the Master" (HK).

        Will these opinions, also, be reflected in Doug's new book?
        Hmmmmm I sort of doubt it!

        Prometheus


        Mish wrote:
        > On another note, I read recent post on A.R.E. in which Doug
        > Marman wrote he hasn't read Harold's book "Those Wonderful
        > ECK Masters" yet. He seems very unfamiliar with this book
        > written in 2005, yet Marman has written another book
        > himself recently espousing the truth--the whole truth about
        > eckankar! Now, it puzzles me that Doug appears uninterested
        > in what Harold Klemp is writing, especially the book "Those
        > Wonderful ECK Masters." Since Klemp has gone to great lengths
        > to prove the validity of these eck masters, wouldn't Marman find
        > Klemp's book important to what he himself has written???
        > Wouldn't excerpts from HK's book depict the whole truth with a
        > current context? Or does the whole truth about eckankar as
        > Marman sees it only lie in its past? It seems to me that there
        > is a large group of Twitchell eckists who are disregarding and
        > ignoring Klemp's dogma! This has to be a bigger headache
        > for Klemp and the org than we detractors. LOL!
        >
        > Mish
        >
        >
        > ##################################################
        > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
        > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Hello All,
        > > I enjoyed this post. Yes, ECKists are discouraged
        > > from questioning anything. Questioning EK Dogma
        > > and it's validity or the works of Paul Twitchell are
        > > a NO NO! Also, ECKists are Not EVEN Permitted to
        > > say Darwin Gross' name! And DG WAS the 972nd
        > > LEM/Mahanta! Thus, EKists are certainly NOT
        > > PERMITTED to discuss anything pertaining to
        > > or events prior to DG's expulsion (excommunication)!
        > >
        > > HK's spin and threat is that Anyone Discussing DG
        > > or Questioning the validity of anything pertaining
        > > to the ECKANKAR Religion indicates a "spiritual
        > > immaturity." And, therefore, when a Chela is "spiritually
        > > immature" they Are Not Grounded In The ECK Works
        > > and, thus, Will Not (normally) be allowed to teach/
        > > facilitate Book Discussions, or Satsang Classes, etc.
        > > These Chelas, too, Will Not (normally) be given "settler"
        > > or "explorer" positions of Authority, and their Initiations
        > > Will Be Delayed or frozen by the ESC and/or RESA. This
        > > is a form of Black Listing and Shunning that all religions
        > > practice when followers question the "Authority" of their
        > > Religious Leaders. Blind faith and an imagination of heaven,
        > > angels, masters, prophets, etc. works well for all religions!
        > >
        > > Klemp's re-editing, eliminating, and cover-up of Twitchell's
        > > sources, and works is simple damage control. This cleansing
        > > has eliminated many of the blatant contradictions within the
        > > (revised) Dogma. However, Klemp's Lutheran roots has also
        > > given ECKANKAR a more intolerant Christian influence.
        > >
        > > In ECKANKAR there are two goals that are promoted
        > > over all others - SELF-MASTERY and SPIRITUAL FREEDOM
        > > IN THIS LIFETIME.
        > >
        > > However, these two are impossible to achieve due to
        > > the way in which the EK INITIATIONS are designed. Only
        > > the "MALE" LEM/Mahanta can achieve this Self-Mastery
        > > and Spiritual Freedom through Initiation! Otherwise the
        > > highest EK initiation possible (while in a physical body)
        > > is the 9th. And, only a handful of Chelas become 8th
        > > and 9th Initiates!
        > >
        > > The truth is that ECKANKAR practically forces followers to
        > > jump through hoops to become leaders via trainings,
        > > positions, etc. in order for them to acquire initiations.
        > > And, these initiations are to lead to and/or indicate higher
        > > consciousness and spirituality. Of course, Trained Leaders
        > > also bring in more followers and revenue ($$$). It's really
        > > just a sham because the longer one remains in ECKANKAR
        > > and the higher the initiation rank merely indicates the
        > > LACK of Spiritual Freedom and Self-Mastery and Individuality
        > > (uniqueness of Soul) that these Follower/Leaders have!
        > > Their length of Membership and Rank shows how deluded,
        > > egotistical, and power hungry they have become.
        > >
        > > Thus, ECKANKAR wants, needs, and forces Chelas to conform,
        > > although, this religion was/is proclaimed to be an Individual
        > > Path that leads to greater Freedom. However, the longer one
        > > stays in ECKANKAR the more one's original focus is lost, and
        > > the more one loses their ability to discern truth from fiction.
        > > Critical thinking, logic, common sense, and rational thought
        > > are replaced by blind faith, misplaced trust, and Dogmatic
        > > imagination. In truth ALL ECKists are trained to become
        > > FOLLOWERS of their earthly leader Klemp (the LEM/Mahanta).
        > > NEVER will ECKists be permitted to leave the influence of the
        > > Mahanta even in some "Future" of their imagined Higher Inner
        > > Planes. ECKANKAR promotes cycles of of redundant and limited
        > > imagings with a lot of promises - prophets - angel/masters
        > > to keep people distracted from the Truth and of their own
        > > abilities as Free Souls - including their own Self-Mastery
        > > without the need for a "Religious/Spiritual Leader" stealing
        > > their money, their Reality, and original goals as Seekers.
        > >
        > > Prometheus
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Comments to the posts by Mish and Liz.
        > > >
        > > > Years ago people were not able to question
        > > > without the fear of being excommunicated, or
        > > > even worse. People who went about translating
        > > > the Bible into common language so that more
        > > > people could read it besides the clergy alone,
        > > > what do you think happened to them?
        > > >
        > > > Think about it this way, in a sense it was like
        > > > letting people know what the clergy knew, and
        > > > giving everybody the right to look at the records
        > > > that their religion was based on.
        > > >
        > > > At first it wasn't popular and people were
        > > > burned at the stake for translating the Bible
        > > > into the common language. Even for having
        > > > a Bible in their possession!
        > > >
        > > > Eventually word got out and the printing
        > > > press came along so that people were able
        > > > to read the Bible for themselves.
        > > >
        > > > But you know what? With all of the sects
        > > > and isms since that time, people continue
        > > > to excommunicate or shun others who ask
        > > > the wrong questions. This is most peculiar
        > > > if you ask me. Not that everybody is doing
        > > > this kind of thing to everybody else, but the
        > > > fear to ask questions would probably not be
        > > > so powerful if it were not reinforced by all of
        > > > the people who are afraid to do exactly that.
        > > >
        > > > Peer pressure is a strong influence, and
        > > > being the minority often means being at the
        > > > mercy of the majority. It doesn't matter if
        > > > the majority is right or wrong, but it comes
        > > > down to numbers amounting to power. Even
        > > > monetary wealth where the rich - those with
        > > > the most cash - win most of the government.
        > > >
        > > > So what I'm alluding to is that people tend
        > > > to follow the majority. A form of "herd instinct"
        > > > or just plain wanting to be accepted, to fit in
        > > > and have the freedoms that other people do.
        > > > In the past, fitting in meant staying alive! It
        > > > didn't matter what you agreed with, so long
        > > > as you agreed with those in power. Those in
        > > > the majority.
        > > >
        > > > The Gutenburg Bible was printed in 1455.
        > > > The crusading movent ended in 1464:
        > > >
        > > > "When Constantinople fell in 1453 and Pius II
        > > > was unable to initiate a further campaign before
        > > > his death in 1464, the crusading movement came
        > > > to an end."
        > > >
        > > > [The Perennial Dictionary of World Religions,
        > > > by Keith Crim]
        > > >
        > > > The birth of Guru Nanak and the founding
        > > > of Sikhism reportedly began in 1469:
        > > >
        > > > Sikhism is the youngest of the World Religions,
        > > > barely 500 years old. It was founded by Siri Guru
        > > > Nanak Dev Ji in 1469 who laid the basic principles
        > > > of Sikhism. It offered the people a simple Sikh
        > > > religion teaching "Oneness of God", whose name
        > > > is TRUTH. Nine Gurus followed him who all reinforced
        > > > and added to what was taught by the first Guru. After
        > > > which in 1708, the holy book of the Sikhs, The Siri
        > > > GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI was Proclaimed to be the
        > > > only Guru by the last Guru, Siri Guru Gobind Singh Ji.
        > > > This holy book embodies the philosophy and fundamentals
        > > > of Sikhism. It is the only holy book of a major religion
        > > > which was written and authenticated by its founders.
        > >
        > > *** Try this address-
        > > http://www.sikh.net/publications/View/roots.htm
        > > ***
        > >
        > > > The only holy book of a major religion
        > > > which was written and authenticated by
        > > > its founders. That sounds like a first to
        > > > me.
        > > >
        > > > Etznab
        > >
        >
      • prometheus_973
        Hi Liz, The 972nd LEM/Mahanta (Gross) was not always a Black Magician was he? When does Klemp claim DG fell from Grace or went to the Dark Side as a KAL
        Message 3 of 18 , Aug 7, 2007
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          Hi Liz,
          The 972nd LEM/Mahanta (Gross) was not always
          a "Black Magician" was he? When does Klemp claim
          DG fell from Grace or went to the Dark Side as a
          KAL agent?

          Was a LEM (HK) qualified to judge a Mahanta
          (DG)? Appearances can be deceiving in the worlds
          of Maya.

          Was Gross a Black Magician when he handed Klemp
          the Rod of ECK Power? It seems that would that be
          impossible according to ECK Dogma! So, when did Gross
          begin to show negative traits in the running of ECKANKAR
          and in his decision making? Who judged him, the Board
          and Klemp? How could they know what the Mahanta (DG),
          the special incarnation of Sugmad, knew?

          On the other hand... Klemp did say he met twice with DG
          in the SOUND PROOF DARK ROOM where Klemp worked
          daily at the ESC. [Soul Travelers of the Far Country, CH. 7]

          How far back (in Darwin's reign as LEM/Mahanta) do
          the inapproiate salaries and expenditures go? Is spending
          money, as though it has no value, WORSE than hoarding it
          or using it to build monuments (buildings)?

          In other words- was Darwin an agent for the KAL when
          he gave out ECK Initiations to all chelas including HK and
          when he made Klemp the LEM, or WHEN afterwards?

          ECKists have to believe that Darwin ONLY turned to the
          Kal AFTER he handed Klemp the Rod of Power on Oct.,
          22, 1981. Therefore, ANYTHING and EVERYTHING that
          DG did BEFORE this date (10/22/1981) must have been
          in harmony of the Spiritual Laws of ECK and, therefore,
          with the approval of the SUGMAD, The Nine Silent Ones,
          and the Order of Vairagi ECK Masters. Although, the Order
          the Vairagi of ECK Masters work UNDER/FOR the LEM/Mahanta
          according to Klemp's current views.

          Whether the Lower Plane ECKANKAR Board of Trustees
          (under KAL's rule) approved of Gross' actions or not is a
          moot point in the Higher Spiritual Worlds of ECK and yet
          these are the physical laws and means that Klemp used to
          expel an ECK Master... Gross.

          Anyway, I doubt that Klemp is forbidden by law or settlement
          to say anything negative about Gross after re-reading the
          1983 H.I. Meeting comments that Klemp makes involving DG.
          These comments by Klemp are both negative and misleading.

          Don't ECKists wonder what the 972nd LEM/Mahanta had
          to say when he was still an Enlightened Being and Vairagi
          Master? What was DG's perspective on various topics when
          Klemp was his Chela and Apprendice? Where is this ECK History?
          Why has Klemp destroyed these teachings or forbids that it
          is read and shared within Satsangs, etc.? WHY? Is it fear?
          It's a Fear of Truth and a control tactic that keeps HK from
          showing the other-side-of-the-coin to chelas. Why can't HK
          do something Positive regarding DG instead of pretending
          it never happened. Why not share the good to balance out
          the bad that has been said? Take the Higher Road Harry!
          I guess that won't happen will it... just keep ignoring it like
          it never happened right!

          Is it the Fear of the teachings and words of another "Living"
          ECK Master (before his fall) to be shared when other Masters'
          words, supposedly, are shared? It really doesn't make sense
          if Eckankar is all that it claims as the "highest and most direct
          path" and spiritual teaching. ECkists should be above the
          negative egotistic trappings of the physical world and print
          DG's EK Spiritual Works/Articles prior to 10/22/1981.

          Afterall, any article written by DG in an ECK publication is
          still the property of ECKANKAR.

          Prometheus


          Prometheus wrote:

          HK's spin and threat is that Anyone Discussing DG
          or Questioning the validity of anything pertaining
          to the ECKANKAR Religion indicates a "spiritual
          immaturity."

          Liz wrote:
          Actually one of the easiest ways to control the group, is by claiming
          the above... but the truth of the matter is, HK was advised by his
          Lawyers that he should be very careful of what eckankrap and Klemp puts
          out there in the eck community concerning DG. And vis a versa, DG is
          restricted on what he can share or say due to certain laws.
          >
          Klemp has found a way to threaten his flock, all the while also
          protecting his rock pile of gold. *Fear* is the ultimate control
          factor; it works in most cases....
        • prometheus_973
          Hi Steve, Yes, those ECK initiations are spiritually bogus. This is why EK chelas have to rationalize, imagine, and pretend. At first one will blame oneself
          Message 4 of 18 , Aug 7, 2007
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            Hi Steve,
            Yes, those ECK initiations are spiritually bogus.
            This is why EK chelas have to rationalize, imagine,
            and pretend. At first one will blame oneself and
            think it is them. Guilt and shame and self doubts
            are what seem to make sense when initiations
            or inner experiences don't come through. Afterall,
            Klemp never takes responsibility for the bad or for
            chelas Not having inner experiences or not getting
            an initiation, but HK will always take credit for the
            "good" that normally befalls chelas or anyone for
            that matter! Eventually, long-time chelas will learn
            to rationalize more and more in order to justify their
            positions and opinions. These H.I.s lose their perspective
            as they become more and more deluded and confined
            to the limits of EK Dogma. They have given up looking
            for Truth because they have been misdirected, lied to,
            and confused for so long that they now just look for
            simple answers in Klemp's simple-minded words and
            stories. In other words... they have given up, but can't
            bring themselves to leave ECKANKAR. They have become
            attached to their "Positions" and "Initiation Rank." They
            NEED the earthly admiration and friendships they have
            invested in and cultivated over the years. I don't blame
            them. Change, Individual Spiritual Freedom, and Self-Mastery
            is a difficult choice when it comes to losing friendships
            and causing disharmony within a family. However, one
            cannot Continue to advance Spiritually within the confines
            of being a Religious Follower... regardless of the Religion!


            BTW- DOUG MARMAN-A FEW RESPONSES-TS 2/8/2004
            is on the LINKS Page.

            Prometheus


            Steve wrote:

            > Good Post! and right on the money!
            > It is my belief that all initiations in eck are bogus with nothing
            > to back them up. Does anyone anywhere really get an initiation into
            > the spiritual worlds?
            > Steve
            >
            prometheus wrote:
            > >
            > > Hello All,
            > > I enjoyed this post. Yes, ECKists are discouraged
            > > from questioning anything. Questioning EK Dogma
            > > and it's validity or the works of Paul Twitchell are
            > > a NO NO! Also, ECKists are Not EVEN Permitted to
            > > say Darwin Gross' name! And DG WAS the 972nd
            > > LEM/Mahanta! Thus, EKists are certainly NOT
            > > PERMITTED to discuss anything pertaining to
            > > or events prior to DG's expulsion (excommunication)!
            > >
            > > HK's spin and threat is that Anyone Discussing DG
            > > or Questioning the validity of anything pertaining
            > > to the ECKANKAR Religion indicates a "spiritual
            > > immaturity." And, therefore, when a Chela is "spiritually
            > > immature" they Are Not Grounded In The ECK Works
            > > and, thus, Will Not (normally) be allowed to teach/
            > > facilitate Book Discussions, or Satsang Classes, etc.
            > > These Chelas, too, Will Not (normally) be given "settler"
            > > or "explorer" positions of Authority, and their Initiations
            > > Will Be Delayed or frozen by the ESC and/or RESA. This
            > > is a form of Black Listing and Shunning that all religions
            > > practice when followers question the "Authority" of their
            > > Religious Leaders. Blind faith and an imagination of heaven,
            > > angels, masters, prophets, etc. works well for all religions!
            > >
            > > Klemp's re-editing, eliminating, and cover-up of Twitchell's
            > > sources, and works is simple damage control. This cleansing
            > > has eliminated many of the blatant contradictions within the
            > > (revised) Dogma. However, Klemp's Lutheran roots has also
            > > given ECKANKAR a more intolerant Christian influence.
            > >
            > > In ECKANKAR there are two goals that are promoted
            > > over all others - SELF-MASTERY and SPIRITUAL FREEDOM
            > > IN THIS LIFETIME.
            > >
            > > However, these two are impossible to achieve due to
            > > the way in which the EK INITIATIONS are designed. Only
            > > the "MALE" LEM/Mahanta can achieve this Self-Mastery
            > > and Spiritual Freedom through Initiation! Otherwise the
            > > highest EK initiation possible (while in a physical body)
            > > is the 9th. And, only a handful of Chelas become 8th
            > > and 9th Initiates!
            > >
            > > The truth is that ECKANKAR practically forces followers to
            > > jump through hoops to become leaders via trainings,
            > > positions, etc. in order for them to acquire initiations.
            > > And, these initiations are to lead to and/or indicate higher
            > > consciousness and spirituality. Of course, Trained Leaders
            > > also bring in more followers and revenue ($$$). It's really
            > > just a sham because the longer one remains in ECKANKAR
            > > and the higher the initiation rank merely indicates the
            > > LACK of Spiritual Freedom and Self-Mastery and Individuality
            > > (uniqueness of Soul) that these Follower/Leaders have!
            > > Their length of Membership and Rank shows how deluded,
            > > egotistical, and power hungry they have become.
            > >
            > > Thus, ECKANKAR wants, needs, and forces Chelas to conform,
            > > although, this religion was/is proclaimed to be an Individual
            > > Path that leads to greater Freedom. However, the longer one
            > > stays in ECKANKAR the more one's original focus is lost, and
            > > the more one loses their ability to discern truth from fiction.
            > > Critical thinking, logic, common sense, and rational thought
            > > are replaced by blind faith, misplaced trust, and Dogmatic
            > > imagination. In truth ALL ECKists are trained to become
            > > FOLLOWERS of their earthly leader Klemp (the LEM/Mahanta).
            > > NEVER will ECKists be permitted to leave the influence of the
            > > Mahanta even in some "Future" of their imagined Higher Inner
            > > Planes. ECKANKAR promotes cycles of of redundant and limited
            > > imagings with a lot of promises - prophets - angel/masters
            > > to keep people distracted from the Truth and of their own
            > > abilities as Free Souls - including their own Self-Mastery
            > > without the need for a "Religious/Spiritual Leader" stealing
            > > their money, their Reality, and original goals as Seekers.
            > >
            > > Prometheus
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Comments to the posts by Mish and Liz.
            > > >
            > > > Years ago people were not able to question
            > > > without the fear of being excommunicated, or
            > > > even worse. People who went about translating
            > > > the Bible into common language so that more
            > > > people could read it besides the clergy alone,
            > > > what do you think happened to them?
            > > >
            > > > Think about it this way, in a sense it was like
            > > > letting people know what the clergy knew, and
            > > > giving everybody the right to look at the records
            > > > that their religion was based on.
            > > >
            > > > At first it wasn't popular and people were
            > > > burned at the stake for translating the Bible
            > > > into the common language. Even for having
            > > > a Bible in their possession!
            > > >
            > > > Eventually word got out and the printing
            > > > press came along so that people were able
            > > > to read the Bible for themselves.
            > > >
            > > > But you know what? With all of the sects
            > > > and isms since that time, people continue
            > > > to excommunicate or shun others who ask
            > > > the wrong questions. This is most peculiar
            > > > if you ask me. Not that everybody is doing
            > > > this kind of thing to everybody else, but the
            > > > fear to ask questions would probably not be
            > > > so powerful if it were not reinforced by all of
            > > > the people who are afraid to do exactly that.
            > > >
            > > > Peer pressure is a strong influence, and
            > > > being the minority often means being at the
            > > > mercy of the majority. It doesn't matter if
            > > > the majority is right or wrong, but it comes
            > > > down to numbers amounting to power. Even
            > > > monetary wealth where the rich - those with
            > > > the most cash - win most of the government.
            > > >
            > > > So what I'm alluding to is that people tend
            > > > to follow the majority. A form of "herd instinct"
            > > > or just plain wanting to be accepted, to fit in
            > > > and have the freedoms that other people do.
            > > > In the past, fitting in meant staying alive! It
            > > > didn't matter what you agreed with, so long
            > > > as you agreed with those in power. Those in
            > > > the majority.
            > > >
            > > > The Gutenburg Bible was printed in 1455.
            > > > The crusading movent ended in 1464:
            > > >
            > > > "When Constantinople fell in 1453 and Pius II
            > > > was unable to initiate a further campaign before
            > > > his death in 1464, the crusading movement came
            > > > to an end."
            > > >
            > > > [The Perennial Dictionary of World Religions,
            > > > by Keith Crim]
            > > >
            > > > The birth of Guru Nanak and the founding
            > > > of Sikhism reportedly began in 1469:
            > > >
            > > > Sikhism is the youngest of the World Religions,
            > > > barely 500 years old. It was founded by Siri Guru
            > > > Nanak Dev Ji in 1469 who laid the basic principles
            > > > of Sikhism. It offered the people a simple Sikh
            > > > religion teaching "Oneness of God", whose name
            > > > is TRUTH. Nine Gurus followed him who all reinforced
            > > > and added to what was taught by the first Guru. After
            > > > which in 1708, the holy book of the Sikhs, The Siri
            > > > GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI was Proclaimed to be the
            > > > only Guru by the last Guru, Siri Guru Gobind Singh Ji.
            > > > This holy book embodies the philosophy and fundamentals
            > > > of Sikhism. It is the only holy book of a major religion
            > > > which was written and authenticated by its founders.
            > >
            > > *** Try this address-
            > > http://www.sikh.net/publications/View/roots.htm
            > > ***
            > >
            > > > The only holy book of a major religion
            > > > which was written and authenticated by
            > > > its founders. That sounds like a first to
            > > > me.
            > > >
            > > > Etznab
            > >
            >
          • Elizabeth
            Hey Prometheus, guess I should explain my thoughts further on this topic? Klemp and Company were in fact counseled on what should and should not be shared
            Message 5 of 18 , Aug 8, 2007
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              Hey Prometheus, guess I should explain my thoughts further on this topic?
               
              Klemp and Company were in fact counseled on what should and should not be shared publicly.  They (he) was also advised on what to remove from the *history* of eckankar, pertaining to PT and DG.  Buying up old material so the new members won't have access, warning members to stay off the computer...  All part of keeping their membership in the dark.  Some listen, some don't.  But there will always be the gullable willing to put on those rose colored glasses and develop tunnel vision.        
               
              So how does a god man down play or avoid having to deal with *issues*?    The org pays these bottom duelers (eck lawyers) big money to keep them out of trouble!  Did someone advise klemp in 1983, I give up!  But I do know back in the day, we were warned not to keep any of DG's material, burn it all....  Then warning of what would happen if the membership didn't comply, as you mentioned how the org put *fear* into the membership.  "spiritual immaturity" .    And that lam excuse that Klemp is of a higher consciousness than the godman that invented the path...  Another example of why we shouldn't hang on to old PT material!   Not sure what klemp will pull out of his A** in future years; maybe PT will be in the back ground like those FLEMs?    Hey what's the story on the next FLEM announcement?  Oct is coming up real soon.....        
               
              And what about when he is too darn sick to show up at all....  Or god forbid, what if he kicks the bucket?  Will they put a talking head up on a big screen at the seminars and claim klemp is alive and well, use a curtain to cover up the controls going on behind the scenes?  LOL  now that I know the truth behind the lies, it will be very entertaining when they end up having to announce a new LEM.  Who is willing to carry on the BS / Rod?  Maybe the so called LEM is training isn't ready because, well he just isn't willing to take on the burden, or maybe....   There isn't anyone in line, and klemp would like to go crawl under a rock somewhere and disappear?  Is the org / business willable?  
               
                
              Conspiracy...  To cover up the dirty little secrets of the org.  ;-)  Klemp isn't smart enough to handle this without lawyers.  Though every time he opens his mouth he still looks stupid!  Lawyers aren't paid to increase the IQ of a godman... Shouldn't he already be at a level far more superior than the population of the entire universe!  Wonder what initiation level these lawyers are at, to be able to have some control over how the godman handles his org / business?   
               
               
               
              Liz  
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
              Prometheus wrote:
               
              Anyway, I doubt that Klemp is forbidden by law or settlement
              to say anything negative about Gross after re-reading the
              1983 H.I. Meeting comments that Klemp makes involving DG.
              These comments by Klemp are both negative and misleading.
               
              Prometheus wrote:
               
              HK's spin and threat is that Anyone Discussing DG
              or Questioning the validity of anything pertaining
              to the ECKANKAR Religion indicates a "spiritual
              immaturity."
               
              Liz wrote:
              Actually one of the easiest ways to control the group, is by claiming
              the above... but the truth of the matter is, HK was advised by his
              Lawyers that he should be very careful of what eckankrap and Klemp puts
              out there in the eck community concerning DG.  And vis a versa, DG is
              restricted on what he can share or say due to certain laws.
              >
              Klemp has found a way to threaten his flock, all the while also
              protecting his rock pile of gold.  *Fear* is the ultimate control
              factor; it works in most cases....
               
               
               
               
            • prometheus_973
              Hi Liz, You make some good points. I wonder- What is Gross still getting paid per month from ECKANKAR (HK) for keeping his mouth shut? Shouldn t HK share this
              Message 6 of 18 , Aug 8, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi Liz,
                You make some good points. I wonder- What is Gross still
                getting paid per month from ECKANKAR (HK) for keeping
                his mouth shut? Shouldn't HK share this information with
                the membership? I think so! Why hide it or ignore the fact
                that people want to know the details even today! There has
                to be a settlement and monthly check to Gross right?!
                Otherwise, Darwin and company would be online attacking
                Klemp and sharing juicy little tid-bits of info on Klemp and
                his crew. The lack of such activity indicates that hush money
                is still being paid out.

                On the other hand... since DG fell from Grace AFTER 10/22/81
                could it be that he has NOW been reinstated as an ECK Master
                by the SUGMAD. Afterall, Klemp doesn't know everything about
                all of the ECK Masters, or Who they are, or of their status.
                If HK did know everything he'd know the name of that
                "Unknown ECK Master" that he has written about.

                So, Why doesn't Klemp reach out to Gross and recognize him
                as an ECK Master? Has DG Not atoned for his sins, or were they
                really Klemp's sins. DG lived Large and HK lives Small and that
                was DG's real sin because spiritual people can't disregard money
                by spending it and buying a private jet, or having an expense
                account. Hmmmmm I wonder how HK spends his money? Does
                he donate money to the local community to help others? How
                much if any? Where are the financial statements? Is there a
                reason this is not shared with the General EK Membership
                who donate their hard earned money via their Membership
                Donation, Book, CD, Audio & Video, and jewerly purchases.
                Of course these are just a few of the income sources of the
                EK org. Why not share this info at the World Wide Seminar
                to 2nds and above?

                As far as Joan becoming a FLEM or Co-LEM... well, it's still
                possible. HK can still be the Mahanta and Joan can become
                a 12th and possibly a 13th for the rest of her days. But then,
                she would be next in line to take over as the Mahanta if Klemp
                croaked (like PT) without a Male successor being named. Or,
                maybe HK has a Will (that he updates) where he does make
                a Male selection for the 974th (4th) position. Except, if Joan
                is the 974th LEM.

                Prometheus





                Elizabeth wrote:
                >
                > Hey Prometheus, guess I should explain my thoughts further on this topic?
                >
                > Klemp and Company were in fact counseled on what should and should not be
                > shared publicly. They (he) was also advised on what to remove from the
                > *history* of eckankar, pertaining to PT and DG. Buying up old material so
                > the new members won't have access, warning members to stay off the computer.
                > . All part of keeping their membership in the dark. Some listen, some don
                > t. But there will always be the gullable willing to put on those rose
                > colored glasses and develop tunnel vision.
                >
                > So how does a god man down play or avoid having to deal with *issues*?
                > The org pays these bottom duelers (eck lawyers) big money to keep them out
                > of trouble! Did someone advise klemp in 1983, I give up! But I do know
                > back in the day, we were warned not to keep any of DG's material, burn it
                > all.... Then warning of what would happen if the membership didn't comply,
                > as you mentioned how the org put *fear* into the membership. "spiritual
                > immaturity" . And that lam excuse that Klemp is of a higher consciousness
                > than the godman that invented the path... Another example of why we shouldn
                > t hang on to old PT material! Not sure what klemp will pull out of his A**
                > in future years; maybe PT will be in the back ground like those FLEMs?
                > Hey what's the story on the next FLEM announcement? Oct is coming up real
                > soon.....
                >
                > And what about when he is too darn sick to show up at all.... Or god forbid
                > what if he kicks the bucket? Will they put a talking head up on a big
                > screen at the seminars and claim klemp is alive and well, use a curtain to
                > cover up the controls going on behind the scenes? LOL now that I know the
                > truth behind the lies, it will be very entertaining when they end up having
                > to announce a new LEM. Who is willing to carry on the BS / Rod? Maybe the
                > so called LEM is training isn't ready because, well he just isn't willing to
                > take on the burden, or maybe.... There isn't anyone in line, and klemp
                > would like to go crawl under a rock somewhere and disappear? Is the org /
                > business willable?
                >
                >
                > Conspiracy... To cover up the dirty little secrets of the org. ;-) Klemp
                > isn't smart enough to handle this without lawyers. Though every time he
                > opens his mouth he still looks stupid! Lawyers aren't paid to increase the
                > IQ of a godman... Shouldn't he already be at a level far more superior than
                > the population of the entire universe! Wonder what initiation level these
                > lawyers are at, to be able to have some control over how the godman handles
                > his org / business?
                >
                >
                >
                > Liz
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Prometheus wrote:
                >
                > Anyway, I doubt that Klemp is forbidden by law or settlement
                > to say anything negative about Gross after re-reading the
                > 1983 H.I. Meeting comments that Klemp makes involving DG.
                > These comments by Klemp are both negative and misleading.
                >
                > Prometheus wrote:
                >
                > HK's spin and threat is that Anyone Discussing DG
                > or Questioning the validity of anything pertaining
                > to the ECKANKAR Religion indicates a "spiritual
                > immaturity."
                >
                > Liz wrote:
                > Actually one of the easiest ways to control the group, is by claiming
                > the above... but the truth of the matter is, HK was advised by his
                > Lawyers that he should be very careful of what eckankrap and Klemp puts
                > out there in the eck community concerning DG. And vis a versa, DG is
                > restricted on what he can share or say due to certain laws.
                > >
                > Klemp has found a way to threaten his flock, all the while also
                > protecting his rock pile of gold. *Fear* is the ultimate control
                > factor; it works in most cases....
                >
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