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EK: Followers to Become H.I. Leaders - And Never Truly Free!

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  • prometheus_973
    Hello All, I enjoyed this post. Yes, ECKists are discouraged from questioning anything. Questioning EK Dogma and it s validity or the works of Paul Twitchell
    Message 1 of 18 , Aug 6, 2007
      Hello All,
      I enjoyed this post. Yes, ECKists are discouraged
      from questioning anything. Questioning EK Dogma
      and it's validity or the works of Paul Twitchell are
      a NO NO! Also, ECKists are Not EVEN Permitted to
      say Darwin Gross' name! And DG WAS the 972nd
      LEM/Mahanta! Thus, EKists are certainly NOT
      PERMITTED to discuss anything pertaining to
      or events prior to DG's expulsion (excommunication)!

      HK's spin and threat is that Anyone Discussing DG
      or Questioning the validity of anything pertaining
      to the ECKANKAR Religion indicates a "spiritual
      immaturity." And, therefore, when a Chela is "spiritually
      immature" they Are Not Grounded In The ECK Works
      and, thus, Will Not (normally) be allowed to teach/
      facilitate Book Discussions, or Satsang Classes, etc.
      These Chelas, too, Will Not (normally) be given "settler"
      or "explorer" positions of Authority, and their Initiations
      Will Be Delayed or frozen by the ESC and/or RESA. This
      is a form of Black Listing and Shunning that all religions
      practice when followers question the "Authority" of their
      Religious Leaders. Blind faith and an imagination of heaven,
      angels, masters, prophets, etc. works well for all religions!

      Klemp's re-editing, eliminating, and cover-up of Twitchell's
      sources, and works is simple damage control. This cleansing
      has eliminated many of the blatant contradictions within the
      (revised) Dogma. However, Klemp's Lutheran roots has also
      given ECKANKAR a more intolerant Christian influence.

      In ECKANKAR there are two goals that are promoted
      over all others - SELF-MASTERY and SPIRITUAL FREEDOM
      IN THIS LIFETIME.

      However, these two are impossible to achieve due to
      the way in which the EK INITIATIONS are designed. Only
      the "MALE" LEM/Mahanta can achieve this Self-Mastery
      and Spiritual Freedom through Initiation! Otherwise the
      highest EK initiation possible (while in a physical body)
      is the 9th. And, only a handful of Chelas become 8th
      and 9th Initiates!

      The truth is that ECKANKAR practically forces followers to
      jump through hoops to become leaders via trainings,
      positions, etc. in order for them to acquire initiations.
      And, these initiations are to lead to and/or indicate higher
      consciousness and spirituality. Of course, Trained Leaders
      also bring in more followers and revenue ($$$). It's really
      just a sham because the longer one remains in ECKANKAR
      and the higher the initiation rank merely indicates the
      LACK of Spiritual Freedom and Self-Mastery and Individuality
      (uniqueness of Soul) that these Follower/Leaders have!
      Their length of Membership and Rank shows how deluded,
      egotistical, and power hungry they have become.

      Thus, ECKANKAR wants, needs, and forces Chelas to conform,
      although, this religion was/is proclaimed to be an Individual
      Path that leads to greater Freedom. However, the longer one
      stays in ECKANKAR the more one's original focus is lost, and
      the more one loses their ability to discern truth from fiction.
      Critical thinking, logic, common sense, and rational thought
      are replaced by blind faith, misplaced trust, and Dogmatic
      imagination. In truth ALL ECKists are trained to become
      FOLLOWERS of their earthly leader Klemp (the LEM/Mahanta).
      NEVER will ECKists be permitted to leave the influence of the
      Mahanta even in some "Future" of their imagined Higher Inner
      Planes. ECKANKAR promotes cycles of of redundant and limited
      imagings with a lot of promises - prophets - angel/masters
      to keep people distracted from the Truth and of their own
      abilities as Free Souls - including their own Self-Mastery
      without the need for a "Religious/Spiritual Leader" stealing
      their money, their Reality, and original goals as Seekers.

      Prometheus







      Comments to the posts by Mish and Liz.
      >
      > Years ago people were not able to question
      > without the fear of being excommunicated, or
      > even worse. People who went about translating
      > the Bible into common language so that more
      > people could read it besides the clergy alone,
      > what do you think happened to them?
      >
      > Think about it this way, in a sense it was like
      > letting people know what the clergy knew, and
      > giving everybody the right to look at the records
      > that their religion was based on.
      >
      > At first it wasn't popular and people were
      > burned at the stake for translating the Bible
      > into the common language. Even for having
      > a Bible in their possession!
      >
      > Eventually word got out and the printing
      > press came along so that people were able
      > to read the Bible for themselves.
      >
      > But you know what? With all of the sects
      > and isms since that time, people continue
      > to excommunicate or shun others who ask
      > the wrong questions. This is most peculiar
      > if you ask me. Not that everybody is doing
      > this kind of thing to everybody else, but the
      > fear to ask questions would probably not be
      > so powerful if it were not reinforced by all of
      > the people who are afraid to do exactly that.
      >
      > Peer pressure is a strong influence, and
      > being the minority often means being at the
      > mercy of the majority. It doesn't matter if
      > the majority is right or wrong, but it comes
      > down to numbers amounting to power. Even
      > monetary wealth where the rich - those with
      > the most cash - win most of the government.
      >
      > So what I'm alluding to is that people tend
      > to follow the majority. A form of "herd instinct"
      > or just plain wanting to be accepted, to fit in
      > and have the freedoms that other people do.
      > In the past, fitting in meant staying alive! It
      > didn't matter what you agreed with, so long
      > as you agreed with those in power. Those in
      > the majority.
      >
      > The Gutenburg Bible was printed in 1455.
      > The crusading movent ended in 1464:
      >
      > "When Constantinople fell in 1453 and Pius II
      > was unable to initiate a further campaign before
      > his death in 1464, the crusading movement came
      > to an end."
      >
      > [The Perennial Dictionary of World Religions,
      > by Keith Crim]
      >
      > The birth of Guru Nanak and the founding
      > of Sikhism reportedly began in 1469:
      >
      > Sikhism is the youngest of the World Religions,
      > barely 500 years old. It was founded by Siri Guru
      > Nanak Dev Ji in 1469 who laid the basic principles
      > of Sikhism. It offered the people a simple Sikh
      > religion teaching "Oneness of God", whose name
      > is TRUTH. Nine Gurus followed him who all reinforced
      > and added to what was taught by the first Guru. After
      > which in 1708, the holy book of the Sikhs, The Siri
      > GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI was Proclaimed to be the
      > only Guru by the last Guru, Siri Guru Gobind Singh Ji.
      > This holy book embodies the philosophy and fundamentals
      > of Sikhism. It is the only holy book of a major religion
      > which was written and authenticated by its founders.

      *** Try this address-
      http://www.sikh.net/publications/View/roots.htm
      ***

      > The only holy book of a major religion
      > which was written and authenticated by
      > its founders. That sounds like a first to
      > me.
      >
      > Etznab
    • Steve
      Good Post! and right on the money! It is my belief that all initiations in eck are bogus with nothing to back them up. Does anyone anywhere really get an
      Message 2 of 18 , Aug 6, 2007
        Good Post! and right on the money!
        It is my belief that all initiations in eck are bogus with nothing
        to back them up. Does anyone anywhere really get an initiation into
        the spiritual worlds?
        Steve

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
        <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello All,
        > I enjoyed this post. Yes, ECKists are discouraged
        > from questioning anything. Questioning EK Dogma
        > and it's validity or the works of Paul Twitchell are
        > a NO NO! Also, ECKists are Not EVEN Permitted to
        > say Darwin Gross' name! And DG WAS the 972nd
        > LEM/Mahanta! Thus, EKists are certainly NOT
        > PERMITTED to discuss anything pertaining to
        > or events prior to DG's expulsion (excommunication)!
        >
        > HK's spin and threat is that Anyone Discussing DG
        > or Questioning the validity of anything pertaining
        > to the ECKANKAR Religion indicates a "spiritual
        > immaturity." And, therefore, when a Chela is "spiritually
        > immature" they Are Not Grounded In The ECK Works
        > and, thus, Will Not (normally) be allowed to teach/
        > facilitate Book Discussions, or Satsang Classes, etc.
        > These Chelas, too, Will Not (normally) be given "settler"
        > or "explorer" positions of Authority, and their Initiations
        > Will Be Delayed or frozen by the ESC and/or RESA. This
        > is a form of Black Listing and Shunning that all religions
        > practice when followers question the "Authority" of their
        > Religious Leaders. Blind faith and an imagination of heaven,
        > angels, masters, prophets, etc. works well for all religions!
        >
        > Klemp's re-editing, eliminating, and cover-up of Twitchell's
        > sources, and works is simple damage control. This cleansing
        > has eliminated many of the blatant contradictions within the
        > (revised) Dogma. However, Klemp's Lutheran roots has also
        > given ECKANKAR a more intolerant Christian influence.
        >
        > In ECKANKAR there are two goals that are promoted
        > over all others - SELF-MASTERY and SPIRITUAL FREEDOM
        > IN THIS LIFETIME.
        >
        > However, these two are impossible to achieve due to
        > the way in which the EK INITIATIONS are designed. Only
        > the "MALE" LEM/Mahanta can achieve this Self-Mastery
        > and Spiritual Freedom through Initiation! Otherwise the
        > highest EK initiation possible (while in a physical body)
        > is the 9th. And, only a handful of Chelas become 8th
        > and 9th Initiates!
        >
        > The truth is that ECKANKAR practically forces followers to
        > jump through hoops to become leaders via trainings,
        > positions, etc. in order for them to acquire initiations.
        > And, these initiations are to lead to and/or indicate higher
        > consciousness and spirituality. Of course, Trained Leaders
        > also bring in more followers and revenue ($$$). It's really
        > just a sham because the longer one remains in ECKANKAR
        > and the higher the initiation rank merely indicates the
        > LACK of Spiritual Freedom and Self-Mastery and Individuality
        > (uniqueness of Soul) that these Follower/Leaders have!
        > Their length of Membership and Rank shows how deluded,
        > egotistical, and power hungry they have become.
        >
        > Thus, ECKANKAR wants, needs, and forces Chelas to conform,
        > although, this religion was/is proclaimed to be an Individual
        > Path that leads to greater Freedom. However, the longer one
        > stays in ECKANKAR the more one's original focus is lost, and
        > the more one loses their ability to discern truth from fiction.
        > Critical thinking, logic, common sense, and rational thought
        > are replaced by blind faith, misplaced trust, and Dogmatic
        > imagination. In truth ALL ECKists are trained to become
        > FOLLOWERS of their earthly leader Klemp (the LEM/Mahanta).
        > NEVER will ECKists be permitted to leave the influence of the
        > Mahanta even in some "Future" of their imagined Higher Inner
        > Planes. ECKANKAR promotes cycles of of redundant and limited
        > imagings with a lot of promises - prophets - angel/masters
        > to keep people distracted from the Truth and of their own
        > abilities as Free Souls - including their own Self-Mastery
        > without the need for a "Religious/Spiritual Leader" stealing
        > their money, their Reality, and original goals as Seekers.
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Comments to the posts by Mish and Liz.
        > >
        > > Years ago people were not able to question
        > > without the fear of being excommunicated, or
        > > even worse. People who went about translating
        > > the Bible into common language so that more
        > > people could read it besides the clergy alone,
        > > what do you think happened to them?
        > >
        > > Think about it this way, in a sense it was like
        > > letting people know what the clergy knew, and
        > > giving everybody the right to look at the records
        > > that their religion was based on.
        > >
        > > At first it wasn't popular and people were
        > > burned at the stake for translating the Bible
        > > into the common language. Even for having
        > > a Bible in their possession!
        > >
        > > Eventually word got out and the printing
        > > press came along so that people were able
        > > to read the Bible for themselves.
        > >
        > > But you know what? With all of the sects
        > > and isms since that time, people continue
        > > to excommunicate or shun others who ask
        > > the wrong questions. This is most peculiar
        > > if you ask me. Not that everybody is doing
        > > this kind of thing to everybody else, but the
        > > fear to ask questions would probably not be
        > > so powerful if it were not reinforced by all of
        > > the people who are afraid to do exactly that.
        > >
        > > Peer pressure is a strong influence, and
        > > being the minority often means being at the
        > > mercy of the majority. It doesn't matter if
        > > the majority is right or wrong, but it comes
        > > down to numbers amounting to power. Even
        > > monetary wealth where the rich - those with
        > > the most cash - win most of the government.
        > >
        > > So what I'm alluding to is that people tend
        > > to follow the majority. A form of "herd instinct"
        > > or just plain wanting to be accepted, to fit in
        > > and have the freedoms that other people do.
        > > In the past, fitting in meant staying alive! It
        > > didn't matter what you agreed with, so long
        > > as you agreed with those in power. Those in
        > > the majority.
        > >
        > > The Gutenburg Bible was printed in 1455.
        > > The crusading movent ended in 1464:
        > >
        > > "When Constantinople fell in 1453 and Pius II
        > > was unable to initiate a further campaign before
        > > his death in 1464, the crusading movement came
        > > to an end."
        > >
        > > [The Perennial Dictionary of World Religions,
        > > by Keith Crim]
        > >
        > > The birth of Guru Nanak and the founding
        > > of Sikhism reportedly began in 1469:
        > >
        > > Sikhism is the youngest of the World Religions,
        > > barely 500 years old. It was founded by Siri Guru
        > > Nanak Dev Ji in 1469 who laid the basic principles
        > > of Sikhism. It offered the people a simple Sikh
        > > religion teaching "Oneness of God", whose name
        > > is TRUTH. Nine Gurus followed him who all reinforced
        > > and added to what was taught by the first Guru. After
        > > which in 1708, the holy book of the Sikhs, The Siri
        > > GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI was Proclaimed to be the
        > > only Guru by the last Guru, Siri Guru Gobind Singh Ji.
        > > This holy book embodies the philosophy and fundamentals
        > > of Sikhism. It is the only holy book of a major religion
        > > which was written and authenticated by its founders.
        >
        > *** Try this address-
        > http://www.sikh.net/publications/View/roots.htm
        > ***
        >
        > > The only holy book of a major religion
        > > which was written and authenticated by
        > > its founders. That sounds like a first to
        > > me.
        > >
        > > Etznab
        >
      • Elizabeth
        ... Actually one of the easiest ways to control the group, is by claiming the above... but the truth of the matter is, HK was advised by his Lawyers that he
        Message 3 of 18 , Aug 7, 2007
          <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
          >

          > HK's spin and threat is that Anyone Discussing DG
          > or Questioning the validity of anything pertaining
          > to the ECKANKAR Religion indicates a "spiritual
          > immaturity."


          Actually one of the easiest ways to control the group, is by claiming
          the above... but the truth of the matter is, HK was advised by his
          Lawyers that he should be very careful of what eckankrap and Klemp puts
          out there in the eck community concerning DG. And vis a versa, DG is
          restricted on what he can share or say due to certain laws.

          Klemp has found a way to threaten his flock, all the while also
          protecting his rock pile of gold. *Fear* is the ultimate control
          factor; it works in most cases....
        • mishmisha9
          Hi, All! Prometheus wrote: ECKists are discouraged from questioning anything. Questioning EK Dogma and it s validity or the works of Paul Twitchell are a NO
          Message 4 of 18 , Aug 7, 2007
            Hi, All!

            Prometheus wrote:
            "ECKists are discouraged from questioning anything.
            Questioning EK Dogma and it's validity or the works of
            Paul Twitchell are a NO NO!"

            Harold Klemp uses his power of "eck authority" to keep
            his chelas inline. He uses fear and persecution that because
            he hold "the rod of eck!" LOL! Those who believe in the eck
            teachings and the validity of the bogus eck initiations certainly
            are aware of what is in store for them if they ask the wrong
            questions or dare to challenge the eck beliefs and eck org,
            especially Harold Klemp. We all most certainly know what
            happened to Ford Johnson and Graham Forsyth when
            Graham's journal was brought to Klemp's attention!!
            How dare them!! LOL!

            Below I am reposting a couple of posts--one from A.R.E.
            that tells what happens to initiations of those who leave
            eckankar and try to come back. The other is a book review
            of "Those Wonderful ECK Masters" posted on Amazon.com
            which tells about Klemp calls chelas "losers" when they
            complain or question the eck teachings.

            As Prometheus wrote in his post, chelas will never be "truly
            free!" Eckankar doesn't produce what it promises--it just
            suppresses and controls those who are searching for spiritual
            truths and enlightenment! Eckankar is of the dark ages! LOL!
            Here are the cross postings as well as a few more comments
            from me at the end.

            From A.R.E., Sept. 2005, a poster named Simon reposted this
            message from HCS, this is what Harold Klemp does to those
            who question his authority and the eck teachings:

            Before reading Ford's book, I commented to my wife how it
            seemed to me that the greater of thrust of the Eck writings
            had come to be about attaining and retaining membership,
            and that in addition to that, there seemed to be a pervasive
            undercurrent of fear being communicated. The latest
            quarterly publication came in the mail. As I have disengaged
            from Eckankar, my wife almost immediately recycled it, but
            chose not to. I found the following interesting. The cover story
            by Harold discusses how to talk about or share Eckankar. An
            article that is nearly 2 pages long discusses how one learns to
            get past their fear or discomfort in regard to talking about
            Eckankar to others. The Wisdom Notes on the last page talks
            about 3 different cases having to do with leaving or coming to
            the Eck teachings. In the Wisdom Note, Harold states the following:
            "Several years ago, the Kal (negative power) tricked a chela into
            believing that her Satsang teacher was the next Living ECK
            Master. Nevertheless, her teacher couldn't have been more
            wrong in his presumption. His ECK Satsang class largely
            became his disciples, and at ECK Worldwide Seminars, he and
            they came to announce his mastership. Most ECKists saw through
            him at once; yet some didn't." "Naturally, the ringleaders were all
            suspended from ECKANKAR for an indefinite time. And that's how
            things stood until recently." "In due time, disappointment with the
            claims of this 'minimaster' allowed this chela and her husband to
            see and hear the Light and Sound of God beyond the veil of their
            illusion. Now they wished to return to ECKANKAR. The husband,
            who'd not been an ECKist before, started his ECK discourse study
            as a new member. The wife, however, expected to return as a Fourth
            Initiate, her former level." "The spiritual question, though, was,
            what number of people had she misled while a missionary for the
            Kal? She was partly responsible for all the karma they had created,
            and were creating."
            "Furthermore, she bore an ongoing responsibility for the negative
            deeds of every single one of them as long as they remained outside
            of ECK." "This meant that she now carried too much karma to qualify
            for the Fourth Initiation. It was also too much karma for the Third
            Initiation. It was likewise for the first Initiation. She did qualify as a
            new ECK member, like her husband, providing she was allowed to
            return at all." "She'd once made a very wrong spiritual decision. Her
            problems were all of her own doing."
            I was wondering if this in part referenced the experiences relating to ?
            Graham Forsythe as well as Ford. I remember Ford writing about ?
            wondering how it was that he might have been in error, simply by
            being honest with himself in regard to his own questions and
            experiences, as well as those of others. It seems that Harold is
            suggesting that there can be a grave penalty for not knowing what
            we do not know, and daring to be honest about it. I'm not sure I
            would advocate such a path as this to those I love and care about
            (e.g. my children), where simply being honest with one's self can
            bring about the worst of circumstances. Better that they never get
            too close to the terrible fire or Eck? Interestingly, there are two new
            books for sale by Harold titled "Those Wonderful Eck Masters" and
            "Truth Has No Secrets".
            (end of A.R.E. post)


            Book review posted on Amazon.com :
            Eckankar's biggest pitch is to prove this spriritual reality to
            yourself! However, brainwashing along with mental and emotional
            imbalance can cause delusional perception. These mental
            constructs produce the desired results (visitation by Eck Masters)
            and this is what these people want and need in order to alliviate
            their fears (of death) and give them hope and belief in a religion or
            Masters that will answer all of their inner questions. Outer and
            on-going questioning is discouraged in Eckankar because it can't
            answer the contradictions in its dogma. Here is an excert from
            the book (pg.211) that shows the unloving author and cult leader
            Harold Klemp in his true light.

            "Belief in the Master's ever-present company relies upon an
            individual's degree of unfoldment. Actual inner experiences help
            one move to a greater understanding of the ways of divine
            revelation. But if he chooses to hang on to shopworn karmic debts
            due to, say, an inability to control some mental passion or habit like
            anger, then his spiritual momentum stops. It's that simple. Of course,
            a headstrong follower always tries to fix blame on the Mahanta, the
            Living Eck Master when his attemps to advance in ECK comes to
            nothing."

            "But such an attitude changes nothing. The individual is a loser and
            will continue to be a loser until he adopts the practices of a winner."

            "I'm used to such misdirected slings. They go with my position. I
            realize that at some point an individual will break free of his holding
            pattern and again soar higher. It's when he's seen that all
            responsibility for his unfoldment lies with him alone."

            Here is another Eckankar contradiction! How can an individual Eckist
            ever break free of the need for their Mahanta (Klemp) when always
            needing that next initiation. Even the 9th-12th initiates (and former
            Mahantas) are still under the authority of Klemp!
            (end of Amazon book review)

            On another note, I read recent post on A.R.E. in which Doug
            Marman wrote he hasn't read Harold's book "Those Wonderful
            ECK Masters" yet. He seems very unfamiliar with this book
            written in 2005, yet Marman has written another book
            himself recently espousing the truth--the whole truth about
            eckankar! Now, it puzzles me that Doug appears uninterested
            in what Harold Klemp is writing, especially the book "Those
            Wonderful ECK Masters." Since Klemp has gone to great lengths
            to prove the validity of these eck masters, wouldn't Marman find
            Klemp's book important to what he himself has written???
            Wouldn't excerpts from HK's book depict the whole truth with a
            current context? Or does the whole truth about eckankar as
            Marman sees it only lie in its past? It seems to me that there
            is a large group of Twitchell eckists who are disregarding and
            ignoring Klemp's dogma! This has to be a bigger headache
            for Klemp and the org than we detractors. LOL!

            Mish


            ##################################################
            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
            "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hello All,
            > I enjoyed this post. Yes, ECKists are discouraged
            > from questioning anything. Questioning EK Dogma
            > and it's validity or the works of Paul Twitchell are
            > a NO NO! Also, ECKists are Not EVEN Permitted to
            > say Darwin Gross' name! And DG WAS the 972nd
            > LEM/Mahanta! Thus, EKists are certainly NOT
            > PERMITTED to discuss anything pertaining to
            > or events prior to DG's expulsion (excommunication)!
            >
            > HK's spin and threat is that Anyone Discussing DG
            > or Questioning the validity of anything pertaining
            > to the ECKANKAR Religion indicates a "spiritual
            > immaturity." And, therefore, when a Chela is "spiritually
            > immature" they Are Not Grounded In The ECK Works
            > and, thus, Will Not (normally) be allowed to teach/
            > facilitate Book Discussions, or Satsang Classes, etc.
            > These Chelas, too, Will Not (normally) be given "settler"
            > or "explorer" positions of Authority, and their Initiations
            > Will Be Delayed or frozen by the ESC and/or RESA. This
            > is a form of Black Listing and Shunning that all religions
            > practice when followers question the "Authority" of their
            > Religious Leaders. Blind faith and an imagination of heaven,
            > angels, masters, prophets, etc. works well for all religions!
            >
            > Klemp's re-editing, eliminating, and cover-up of Twitchell's
            > sources, and works is simple damage control. This cleansing
            > has eliminated many of the blatant contradictions within the
            > (revised) Dogma. However, Klemp's Lutheran roots has also
            > given ECKANKAR a more intolerant Christian influence.
            >
            > In ECKANKAR there are two goals that are promoted
            > over all others - SELF-MASTERY and SPIRITUAL FREEDOM
            > IN THIS LIFETIME.
            >
            > However, these two are impossible to achieve due to
            > the way in which the EK INITIATIONS are designed. Only
            > the "MALE" LEM/Mahanta can achieve this Self-Mastery
            > and Spiritual Freedom through Initiation! Otherwise the
            > highest EK initiation possible (while in a physical body)
            > is the 9th. And, only a handful of Chelas become 8th
            > and 9th Initiates!
            >
            > The truth is that ECKANKAR practically forces followers to
            > jump through hoops to become leaders via trainings,
            > positions, etc. in order for them to acquire initiations.
            > And, these initiations are to lead to and/or indicate higher
            > consciousness and spirituality. Of course, Trained Leaders
            > also bring in more followers and revenue ($$$). It's really
            > just a sham because the longer one remains in ECKANKAR
            > and the higher the initiation rank merely indicates the
            > LACK of Spiritual Freedom and Self-Mastery and Individuality
            > (uniqueness of Soul) that these Follower/Leaders have!
            > Their length of Membership and Rank shows how deluded,
            > egotistical, and power hungry they have become.
            >
            > Thus, ECKANKAR wants, needs, and forces Chelas to conform,
            > although, this religion was/is proclaimed to be an Individual
            > Path that leads to greater Freedom. However, the longer one
            > stays in ECKANKAR the more one's original focus is lost, and
            > the more one loses their ability to discern truth from fiction.
            > Critical thinking, logic, common sense, and rational thought
            > are replaced by blind faith, misplaced trust, and Dogmatic
            > imagination. In truth ALL ECKists are trained to become
            > FOLLOWERS of their earthly leader Klemp (the LEM/Mahanta).
            > NEVER will ECKists be permitted to leave the influence of the
            > Mahanta even in some "Future" of their imagined Higher Inner
            > Planes. ECKANKAR promotes cycles of of redundant and limited
            > imagings with a lot of promises - prophets - angel/masters
            > to keep people distracted from the Truth and of their own
            > abilities as Free Souls - including their own Self-Mastery
            > without the need for a "Religious/Spiritual Leader" stealing
            > their money, their Reality, and original goals as Seekers.
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Comments to the posts by Mish and Liz.
            > >
            > > Years ago people were not able to question
            > > without the fear of being excommunicated, or
            > > even worse. People who went about translating
            > > the Bible into common language so that more
            > > people could read it besides the clergy alone,
            > > what do you think happened to them?
            > >
            > > Think about it this way, in a sense it was like
            > > letting people know what the clergy knew, and
            > > giving everybody the right to look at the records
            > > that their religion was based on.
            > >
            > > At first it wasn't popular and people were
            > > burned at the stake for translating the Bible
            > > into the common language. Even for having
            > > a Bible in their possession!
            > >
            > > Eventually word got out and the printing
            > > press came along so that people were able
            > > to read the Bible for themselves.
            > >
            > > But you know what? With all of the sects
            > > and isms since that time, people continue
            > > to excommunicate or shun others who ask
            > > the wrong questions. This is most peculiar
            > > if you ask me. Not that everybody is doing
            > > this kind of thing to everybody else, but the
            > > fear to ask questions would probably not be
            > > so powerful if it were not reinforced by all of
            > > the people who are afraid to do exactly that.
            > >
            > > Peer pressure is a strong influence, and
            > > being the minority often means being at the
            > > mercy of the majority. It doesn't matter if
            > > the majority is right or wrong, but it comes
            > > down to numbers amounting to power. Even
            > > monetary wealth where the rich - those with
            > > the most cash - win most of the government.
            > >
            > > So what I'm alluding to is that people tend
            > > to follow the majority. A form of "herd instinct"
            > > or just plain wanting to be accepted, to fit in
            > > and have the freedoms that other people do.
            > > In the past, fitting in meant staying alive! It
            > > didn't matter what you agreed with, so long
            > > as you agreed with those in power. Those in
            > > the majority.
            > >
            > > The Gutenburg Bible was printed in 1455.
            > > The crusading movent ended in 1464:
            > >
            > > "When Constantinople fell in 1453 and Pius II
            > > was unable to initiate a further campaign before
            > > his death in 1464, the crusading movement came
            > > to an end."
            > >
            > > [The Perennial Dictionary of World Religions,
            > > by Keith Crim]
            > >
            > > The birth of Guru Nanak and the founding
            > > of Sikhism reportedly began in 1469:
            > >
            > > Sikhism is the youngest of the World Religions,
            > > barely 500 years old. It was founded by Siri Guru
            > > Nanak Dev Ji in 1469 who laid the basic principles
            > > of Sikhism. It offered the people a simple Sikh
            > > religion teaching "Oneness of God", whose name
            > > is TRUTH. Nine Gurus followed him who all reinforced
            > > and added to what was taught by the first Guru. After
            > > which in 1708, the holy book of the Sikhs, The Siri
            > > GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI was Proclaimed to be the
            > > only Guru by the last Guru, Siri Guru Gobind Singh Ji.
            > > This holy book embodies the philosophy and fundamentals
            > > of Sikhism. It is the only holy book of a major religion
            > > which was written and authenticated by its founders.
            >
            > *** Try this address-
            > http://www.sikh.net/publications/View/roots.htm
            > ***
            >
            > > The only holy book of a major religion
            > > which was written and authenticated by
            > > its founders. That sounds like a first to
            > > me.
            > >
            > > Etznab
            >
          • prometheus_973
            Yes, it is strange that Marman tends to dwell in the past with a Twitchell/Radhasoami view of ECKANKAR versus the current/sanitized and Christian-like view of
            Message 5 of 18 , Aug 7, 2007
              Yes, it is strange that Marman tends to dwell in the past
              with a Twitchell/Radhasoami view of ECKANKAR versus
              the current/sanitized and Christian-like view of Klemp's.

              However, on Ford's The Truth-Seeker site Marman replies
              to Nacal [ME] on 2/8/2004 by making some comments
              that he NOW probably wishes he hadn't made.

              http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.asp

              *On Myth-

              Nacal: "Is what Harold teaches (Eckankar) a Myth?
              Since I brought the subject up can you tell me if
              the Holocaust was a Myth or Not?"

              Doug: "... Yes, I would say a lot of what is taught
              about Eckankar is a Myth. Yes, I think that a lot of
              what people think about the Holocaust is made up
              of Myth as well... History is largely made up of Myth."

              So, will Marman, in his new book, tell the "Whole
              Truth" about the MYTH of ECKANKAR as well? Probably
              Not!

              *On Twitchell's Birth Year and Mysterious Creations-

              Doug: "Obviously we now know where he came from
              and was born (Paducah, Kentucky)... We also know
              when he was born (1909)... I think he liked the idea
              that his past was Mysterious, and he helped to Create
              this Mysterious Past."

              Will Doug share this too in his new book? How can DM's
              Whole Truth about ECKANKAR Not Show that Twitchell
              Created his own Mysterious Past as Doug claims? Also,
              the 1909 Birth Year (Doug gives) for PT means that at
              age 27 the year was 1936. Therefore when Klemp states
              (on Eckankar.org) that Twitch was "exaggerating" and
              "twisting facts" at age 27 to get into Who's Who in Kentucky
              and that PT had never traveled far from home then - How
              could PT have met Sudar Singh on his "first" trip to India
              in 1935?!

              *Rebazar Tarzs-

              Nacal is refering to a quote about RT: 'But it is a fact that
              his Master Rebazar Tarzs, an ancient Tibetan lama, who
              appears to be in his early forties, was a young man when
              Columbus discovered America.'

              "Now, was that really a 'fact,' or a delusional belief, or a
              deliberate lie? Or, is it that," 'There is a need of the people
              to believe in the Magic of a Saviour, and Sri Paul Twitchell
              knows this and acts out the part.' [quote from Difficulties
              Of Becoming The LEM]

              Doug: "It certainly is No Fact, since there are No Records
              Nor Anything Else To Prove That REBAZAR TARZS Even
              Exists, Never Mind How Old He Really Is. However, there
              is no proof that it is a lie either. It certainly sounds far-
              fetched."

              Marman seems to cast some doubt on the existance of
              Rebazar. Apparently he's never had a personal experience
              or visitation to erase these doubts. Maybe he needs to use
              his Imagination in order to Believe like most other chelas do!
              I wonder what DM has to say about RT, in his new book, that
              would contradict the doubts he casts in this 2004 post on TS?

              * Marman on EK Initiations-

              Nacal: "Are the Initiations in Eckankar Valid as a Means to
              Greater Spiritual Growth over those who are Non-ECKists?
              Or, is this a Myth too?"

              Doug: "I think the initiations are a mixed bag... But they have
              become filled with Myths as well. I can tell you that Self-
              Realization is rare, H.I. or not. The Initiation Level Doesn't
              Prove Anything... I dont't think Anyone should be Judging
              another person's Worth or Truth by what Initiation Level
              They Are At. INCLUDING THE MASTER."

              Thus, Doug's opinion is that "Self-Realization is rare, H.I.
              or not" and "initiation level doesn't prove anything" and
              that NO ONE should be "judging another person's worth or
              truth" as to their "initiation level... including the Master" (HK).

              Will these opinions, also, be reflected in Doug's new book?
              Hmmmmm I sort of doubt it!

              Prometheus


              Mish wrote:
              > On another note, I read recent post on A.R.E. in which Doug
              > Marman wrote he hasn't read Harold's book "Those Wonderful
              > ECK Masters" yet. He seems very unfamiliar with this book
              > written in 2005, yet Marman has written another book
              > himself recently espousing the truth--the whole truth about
              > eckankar! Now, it puzzles me that Doug appears uninterested
              > in what Harold Klemp is writing, especially the book "Those
              > Wonderful ECK Masters." Since Klemp has gone to great lengths
              > to prove the validity of these eck masters, wouldn't Marman find
              > Klemp's book important to what he himself has written???
              > Wouldn't excerpts from HK's book depict the whole truth with a
              > current context? Or does the whole truth about eckankar as
              > Marman sees it only lie in its past? It seems to me that there
              > is a large group of Twitchell eckists who are disregarding and
              > ignoring Klemp's dogma! This has to be a bigger headache
              > for Klemp and the org than we detractors. LOL!
              >
              > Mish
              >
              >
              > ##################################################
              > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
              > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hello All,
              > > I enjoyed this post. Yes, ECKists are discouraged
              > > from questioning anything. Questioning EK Dogma
              > > and it's validity or the works of Paul Twitchell are
              > > a NO NO! Also, ECKists are Not EVEN Permitted to
              > > say Darwin Gross' name! And DG WAS the 972nd
              > > LEM/Mahanta! Thus, EKists are certainly NOT
              > > PERMITTED to discuss anything pertaining to
              > > or events prior to DG's expulsion (excommunication)!
              > >
              > > HK's spin and threat is that Anyone Discussing DG
              > > or Questioning the validity of anything pertaining
              > > to the ECKANKAR Religion indicates a "spiritual
              > > immaturity." And, therefore, when a Chela is "spiritually
              > > immature" they Are Not Grounded In The ECK Works
              > > and, thus, Will Not (normally) be allowed to teach/
              > > facilitate Book Discussions, or Satsang Classes, etc.
              > > These Chelas, too, Will Not (normally) be given "settler"
              > > or "explorer" positions of Authority, and their Initiations
              > > Will Be Delayed or frozen by the ESC and/or RESA. This
              > > is a form of Black Listing and Shunning that all religions
              > > practice when followers question the "Authority" of their
              > > Religious Leaders. Blind faith and an imagination of heaven,
              > > angels, masters, prophets, etc. works well for all religions!
              > >
              > > Klemp's re-editing, eliminating, and cover-up of Twitchell's
              > > sources, and works is simple damage control. This cleansing
              > > has eliminated many of the blatant contradictions within the
              > > (revised) Dogma. However, Klemp's Lutheran roots has also
              > > given ECKANKAR a more intolerant Christian influence.
              > >
              > > In ECKANKAR there are two goals that are promoted
              > > over all others - SELF-MASTERY and SPIRITUAL FREEDOM
              > > IN THIS LIFETIME.
              > >
              > > However, these two are impossible to achieve due to
              > > the way in which the EK INITIATIONS are designed. Only
              > > the "MALE" LEM/Mahanta can achieve this Self-Mastery
              > > and Spiritual Freedom through Initiation! Otherwise the
              > > highest EK initiation possible (while in a physical body)
              > > is the 9th. And, only a handful of Chelas become 8th
              > > and 9th Initiates!
              > >
              > > The truth is that ECKANKAR practically forces followers to
              > > jump through hoops to become leaders via trainings,
              > > positions, etc. in order for them to acquire initiations.
              > > And, these initiations are to lead to and/or indicate higher
              > > consciousness and spirituality. Of course, Trained Leaders
              > > also bring in more followers and revenue ($$$). It's really
              > > just a sham because the longer one remains in ECKANKAR
              > > and the higher the initiation rank merely indicates the
              > > LACK of Spiritual Freedom and Self-Mastery and Individuality
              > > (uniqueness of Soul) that these Follower/Leaders have!
              > > Their length of Membership and Rank shows how deluded,
              > > egotistical, and power hungry they have become.
              > >
              > > Thus, ECKANKAR wants, needs, and forces Chelas to conform,
              > > although, this religion was/is proclaimed to be an Individual
              > > Path that leads to greater Freedom. However, the longer one
              > > stays in ECKANKAR the more one's original focus is lost, and
              > > the more one loses their ability to discern truth from fiction.
              > > Critical thinking, logic, common sense, and rational thought
              > > are replaced by blind faith, misplaced trust, and Dogmatic
              > > imagination. In truth ALL ECKists are trained to become
              > > FOLLOWERS of their earthly leader Klemp (the LEM/Mahanta).
              > > NEVER will ECKists be permitted to leave the influence of the
              > > Mahanta even in some "Future" of their imagined Higher Inner
              > > Planes. ECKANKAR promotes cycles of of redundant and limited
              > > imagings with a lot of promises - prophets - angel/masters
              > > to keep people distracted from the Truth and of their own
              > > abilities as Free Souls - including their own Self-Mastery
              > > without the need for a "Religious/Spiritual Leader" stealing
              > > their money, their Reality, and original goals as Seekers.
              > >
              > > Prometheus
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Comments to the posts by Mish and Liz.
              > > >
              > > > Years ago people were not able to question
              > > > without the fear of being excommunicated, or
              > > > even worse. People who went about translating
              > > > the Bible into common language so that more
              > > > people could read it besides the clergy alone,
              > > > what do you think happened to them?
              > > >
              > > > Think about it this way, in a sense it was like
              > > > letting people know what the clergy knew, and
              > > > giving everybody the right to look at the records
              > > > that their religion was based on.
              > > >
              > > > At first it wasn't popular and people were
              > > > burned at the stake for translating the Bible
              > > > into the common language. Even for having
              > > > a Bible in their possession!
              > > >
              > > > Eventually word got out and the printing
              > > > press came along so that people were able
              > > > to read the Bible for themselves.
              > > >
              > > > But you know what? With all of the sects
              > > > and isms since that time, people continue
              > > > to excommunicate or shun others who ask
              > > > the wrong questions. This is most peculiar
              > > > if you ask me. Not that everybody is doing
              > > > this kind of thing to everybody else, but the
              > > > fear to ask questions would probably not be
              > > > so powerful if it were not reinforced by all of
              > > > the people who are afraid to do exactly that.
              > > >
              > > > Peer pressure is a strong influence, and
              > > > being the minority often means being at the
              > > > mercy of the majority. It doesn't matter if
              > > > the majority is right or wrong, but it comes
              > > > down to numbers amounting to power. Even
              > > > monetary wealth where the rich - those with
              > > > the most cash - win most of the government.
              > > >
              > > > So what I'm alluding to is that people tend
              > > > to follow the majority. A form of "herd instinct"
              > > > or just plain wanting to be accepted, to fit in
              > > > and have the freedoms that other people do.
              > > > In the past, fitting in meant staying alive! It
              > > > didn't matter what you agreed with, so long
              > > > as you agreed with those in power. Those in
              > > > the majority.
              > > >
              > > > The Gutenburg Bible was printed in 1455.
              > > > The crusading movent ended in 1464:
              > > >
              > > > "When Constantinople fell in 1453 and Pius II
              > > > was unable to initiate a further campaign before
              > > > his death in 1464, the crusading movement came
              > > > to an end."
              > > >
              > > > [The Perennial Dictionary of World Religions,
              > > > by Keith Crim]
              > > >
              > > > The birth of Guru Nanak and the founding
              > > > of Sikhism reportedly began in 1469:
              > > >
              > > > Sikhism is the youngest of the World Religions,
              > > > barely 500 years old. It was founded by Siri Guru
              > > > Nanak Dev Ji in 1469 who laid the basic principles
              > > > of Sikhism. It offered the people a simple Sikh
              > > > religion teaching "Oneness of God", whose name
              > > > is TRUTH. Nine Gurus followed him who all reinforced
              > > > and added to what was taught by the first Guru. After
              > > > which in 1708, the holy book of the Sikhs, The Siri
              > > > GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI was Proclaimed to be the
              > > > only Guru by the last Guru, Siri Guru Gobind Singh Ji.
              > > > This holy book embodies the philosophy and fundamentals
              > > > of Sikhism. It is the only holy book of a major religion
              > > > which was written and authenticated by its founders.
              > >
              > > *** Try this address-
              > > http://www.sikh.net/publications/View/roots.htm
              > > ***
              > >
              > > > The only holy book of a major religion
              > > > which was written and authenticated by
              > > > its founders. That sounds like a first to
              > > > me.
              > > >
              > > > Etznab
              > >
              >
            • prometheus_973
              Hi Liz, The 972nd LEM/Mahanta (Gross) was not always a Black Magician was he? When does Klemp claim DG fell from Grace or went to the Dark Side as a KAL
              Message 6 of 18 , Aug 7, 2007
                Hi Liz,
                The 972nd LEM/Mahanta (Gross) was not always
                a "Black Magician" was he? When does Klemp claim
                DG fell from Grace or went to the Dark Side as a
                KAL agent?

                Was a LEM (HK) qualified to judge a Mahanta
                (DG)? Appearances can be deceiving in the worlds
                of Maya.

                Was Gross a Black Magician when he handed Klemp
                the Rod of ECK Power? It seems that would that be
                impossible according to ECK Dogma! So, when did Gross
                begin to show negative traits in the running of ECKANKAR
                and in his decision making? Who judged him, the Board
                and Klemp? How could they know what the Mahanta (DG),
                the special incarnation of Sugmad, knew?

                On the other hand... Klemp did say he met twice with DG
                in the SOUND PROOF DARK ROOM where Klemp worked
                daily at the ESC. [Soul Travelers of the Far Country, CH. 7]

                How far back (in Darwin's reign as LEM/Mahanta) do
                the inapproiate salaries and expenditures go? Is spending
                money, as though it has no value, WORSE than hoarding it
                or using it to build monuments (buildings)?

                In other words- was Darwin an agent for the KAL when
                he gave out ECK Initiations to all chelas including HK and
                when he made Klemp the LEM, or WHEN afterwards?

                ECKists have to believe that Darwin ONLY turned to the
                Kal AFTER he handed Klemp the Rod of Power on Oct.,
                22, 1981. Therefore, ANYTHING and EVERYTHING that
                DG did BEFORE this date (10/22/1981) must have been
                in harmony of the Spiritual Laws of ECK and, therefore,
                with the approval of the SUGMAD, The Nine Silent Ones,
                and the Order of Vairagi ECK Masters. Although, the Order
                the Vairagi of ECK Masters work UNDER/FOR the LEM/Mahanta
                according to Klemp's current views.

                Whether the Lower Plane ECKANKAR Board of Trustees
                (under KAL's rule) approved of Gross' actions or not is a
                moot point in the Higher Spiritual Worlds of ECK and yet
                these are the physical laws and means that Klemp used to
                expel an ECK Master... Gross.

                Anyway, I doubt that Klemp is forbidden by law or settlement
                to say anything negative about Gross after re-reading the
                1983 H.I. Meeting comments that Klemp makes involving DG.
                These comments by Klemp are both negative and misleading.

                Don't ECKists wonder what the 972nd LEM/Mahanta had
                to say when he was still an Enlightened Being and Vairagi
                Master? What was DG's perspective on various topics when
                Klemp was his Chela and Apprendice? Where is this ECK History?
                Why has Klemp destroyed these teachings or forbids that it
                is read and shared within Satsangs, etc.? WHY? Is it fear?
                It's a Fear of Truth and a control tactic that keeps HK from
                showing the other-side-of-the-coin to chelas. Why can't HK
                do something Positive regarding DG instead of pretending
                it never happened. Why not share the good to balance out
                the bad that has been said? Take the Higher Road Harry!
                I guess that won't happen will it... just keep ignoring it like
                it never happened right!

                Is it the Fear of the teachings and words of another "Living"
                ECK Master (before his fall) to be shared when other Masters'
                words, supposedly, are shared? It really doesn't make sense
                if Eckankar is all that it claims as the "highest and most direct
                path" and spiritual teaching. ECkists should be above the
                negative egotistic trappings of the physical world and print
                DG's EK Spiritual Works/Articles prior to 10/22/1981.

                Afterall, any article written by DG in an ECK publication is
                still the property of ECKANKAR.

                Prometheus


                Prometheus wrote:

                HK's spin and threat is that Anyone Discussing DG
                or Questioning the validity of anything pertaining
                to the ECKANKAR Religion indicates a "spiritual
                immaturity."

                Liz wrote:
                Actually one of the easiest ways to control the group, is by claiming
                the above... but the truth of the matter is, HK was advised by his
                Lawyers that he should be very careful of what eckankrap and Klemp puts
                out there in the eck community concerning DG. And vis a versa, DG is
                restricted on what he can share or say due to certain laws.
                >
                Klemp has found a way to threaten his flock, all the while also
                protecting his rock pile of gold. *Fear* is the ultimate control
                factor; it works in most cases....
              • prometheus_973
                Hi Steve, Yes, those ECK initiations are spiritually bogus. This is why EK chelas have to rationalize, imagine, and pretend. At first one will blame oneself
                Message 7 of 18 , Aug 7, 2007
                  Hi Steve,
                  Yes, those ECK initiations are spiritually bogus.
                  This is why EK chelas have to rationalize, imagine,
                  and pretend. At first one will blame oneself and
                  think it is them. Guilt and shame and self doubts
                  are what seem to make sense when initiations
                  or inner experiences don't come through. Afterall,
                  Klemp never takes responsibility for the bad or for
                  chelas Not having inner experiences or not getting
                  an initiation, but HK will always take credit for the
                  "good" that normally befalls chelas or anyone for
                  that matter! Eventually, long-time chelas will learn
                  to rationalize more and more in order to justify their
                  positions and opinions. These H.I.s lose their perspective
                  as they become more and more deluded and confined
                  to the limits of EK Dogma. They have given up looking
                  for Truth because they have been misdirected, lied to,
                  and confused for so long that they now just look for
                  simple answers in Klemp's simple-minded words and
                  stories. In other words... they have given up, but can't
                  bring themselves to leave ECKANKAR. They have become
                  attached to their "Positions" and "Initiation Rank." They
                  NEED the earthly admiration and friendships they have
                  invested in and cultivated over the years. I don't blame
                  them. Change, Individual Spiritual Freedom, and Self-Mastery
                  is a difficult choice when it comes to losing friendships
                  and causing disharmony within a family. However, one
                  cannot Continue to advance Spiritually within the confines
                  of being a Religious Follower... regardless of the Religion!


                  BTW- DOUG MARMAN-A FEW RESPONSES-TS 2/8/2004
                  is on the LINKS Page.

                  Prometheus


                  Steve wrote:

                  > Good Post! and right on the money!
                  > It is my belief that all initiations in eck are bogus with nothing
                  > to back them up. Does anyone anywhere really get an initiation into
                  > the spiritual worlds?
                  > Steve
                  >
                  prometheus wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hello All,
                  > > I enjoyed this post. Yes, ECKists are discouraged
                  > > from questioning anything. Questioning EK Dogma
                  > > and it's validity or the works of Paul Twitchell are
                  > > a NO NO! Also, ECKists are Not EVEN Permitted to
                  > > say Darwin Gross' name! And DG WAS the 972nd
                  > > LEM/Mahanta! Thus, EKists are certainly NOT
                  > > PERMITTED to discuss anything pertaining to
                  > > or events prior to DG's expulsion (excommunication)!
                  > >
                  > > HK's spin and threat is that Anyone Discussing DG
                  > > or Questioning the validity of anything pertaining
                  > > to the ECKANKAR Religion indicates a "spiritual
                  > > immaturity." And, therefore, when a Chela is "spiritually
                  > > immature" they Are Not Grounded In The ECK Works
                  > > and, thus, Will Not (normally) be allowed to teach/
                  > > facilitate Book Discussions, or Satsang Classes, etc.
                  > > These Chelas, too, Will Not (normally) be given "settler"
                  > > or "explorer" positions of Authority, and their Initiations
                  > > Will Be Delayed or frozen by the ESC and/or RESA. This
                  > > is a form of Black Listing and Shunning that all religions
                  > > practice when followers question the "Authority" of their
                  > > Religious Leaders. Blind faith and an imagination of heaven,
                  > > angels, masters, prophets, etc. works well for all religions!
                  > >
                  > > Klemp's re-editing, eliminating, and cover-up of Twitchell's
                  > > sources, and works is simple damage control. This cleansing
                  > > has eliminated many of the blatant contradictions within the
                  > > (revised) Dogma. However, Klemp's Lutheran roots has also
                  > > given ECKANKAR a more intolerant Christian influence.
                  > >
                  > > In ECKANKAR there are two goals that are promoted
                  > > over all others - SELF-MASTERY and SPIRITUAL FREEDOM
                  > > IN THIS LIFETIME.
                  > >
                  > > However, these two are impossible to achieve due to
                  > > the way in which the EK INITIATIONS are designed. Only
                  > > the "MALE" LEM/Mahanta can achieve this Self-Mastery
                  > > and Spiritual Freedom through Initiation! Otherwise the
                  > > highest EK initiation possible (while in a physical body)
                  > > is the 9th. And, only a handful of Chelas become 8th
                  > > and 9th Initiates!
                  > >
                  > > The truth is that ECKANKAR practically forces followers to
                  > > jump through hoops to become leaders via trainings,
                  > > positions, etc. in order for them to acquire initiations.
                  > > And, these initiations are to lead to and/or indicate higher
                  > > consciousness and spirituality. Of course, Trained Leaders
                  > > also bring in more followers and revenue ($$$). It's really
                  > > just a sham because the longer one remains in ECKANKAR
                  > > and the higher the initiation rank merely indicates the
                  > > LACK of Spiritual Freedom and Self-Mastery and Individuality
                  > > (uniqueness of Soul) that these Follower/Leaders have!
                  > > Their length of Membership and Rank shows how deluded,
                  > > egotistical, and power hungry they have become.
                  > >
                  > > Thus, ECKANKAR wants, needs, and forces Chelas to conform,
                  > > although, this religion was/is proclaimed to be an Individual
                  > > Path that leads to greater Freedom. However, the longer one
                  > > stays in ECKANKAR the more one's original focus is lost, and
                  > > the more one loses their ability to discern truth from fiction.
                  > > Critical thinking, logic, common sense, and rational thought
                  > > are replaced by blind faith, misplaced trust, and Dogmatic
                  > > imagination. In truth ALL ECKists are trained to become
                  > > FOLLOWERS of their earthly leader Klemp (the LEM/Mahanta).
                  > > NEVER will ECKists be permitted to leave the influence of the
                  > > Mahanta even in some "Future" of their imagined Higher Inner
                  > > Planes. ECKANKAR promotes cycles of of redundant and limited
                  > > imagings with a lot of promises - prophets - angel/masters
                  > > to keep people distracted from the Truth and of their own
                  > > abilities as Free Souls - including their own Self-Mastery
                  > > without the need for a "Religious/Spiritual Leader" stealing
                  > > their money, their Reality, and original goals as Seekers.
                  > >
                  > > Prometheus
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Comments to the posts by Mish and Liz.
                  > > >
                  > > > Years ago people were not able to question
                  > > > without the fear of being excommunicated, or
                  > > > even worse. People who went about translating
                  > > > the Bible into common language so that more
                  > > > people could read it besides the clergy alone,
                  > > > what do you think happened to them?
                  > > >
                  > > > Think about it this way, in a sense it was like
                  > > > letting people know what the clergy knew, and
                  > > > giving everybody the right to look at the records
                  > > > that their religion was based on.
                  > > >
                  > > > At first it wasn't popular and people were
                  > > > burned at the stake for translating the Bible
                  > > > into the common language. Even for having
                  > > > a Bible in their possession!
                  > > >
                  > > > Eventually word got out and the printing
                  > > > press came along so that people were able
                  > > > to read the Bible for themselves.
                  > > >
                  > > > But you know what? With all of the sects
                  > > > and isms since that time, people continue
                  > > > to excommunicate or shun others who ask
                  > > > the wrong questions. This is most peculiar
                  > > > if you ask me. Not that everybody is doing
                  > > > this kind of thing to everybody else, but the
                  > > > fear to ask questions would probably not be
                  > > > so powerful if it were not reinforced by all of
                  > > > the people who are afraid to do exactly that.
                  > > >
                  > > > Peer pressure is a strong influence, and
                  > > > being the minority often means being at the
                  > > > mercy of the majority. It doesn't matter if
                  > > > the majority is right or wrong, but it comes
                  > > > down to numbers amounting to power. Even
                  > > > monetary wealth where the rich - those with
                  > > > the most cash - win most of the government.
                  > > >
                  > > > So what I'm alluding to is that people tend
                  > > > to follow the majority. A form of "herd instinct"
                  > > > or just plain wanting to be accepted, to fit in
                  > > > and have the freedoms that other people do.
                  > > > In the past, fitting in meant staying alive! It
                  > > > didn't matter what you agreed with, so long
                  > > > as you agreed with those in power. Those in
                  > > > the majority.
                  > > >
                  > > > The Gutenburg Bible was printed in 1455.
                  > > > The crusading movent ended in 1464:
                  > > >
                  > > > "When Constantinople fell in 1453 and Pius II
                  > > > was unable to initiate a further campaign before
                  > > > his death in 1464, the crusading movement came
                  > > > to an end."
                  > > >
                  > > > [The Perennial Dictionary of World Religions,
                  > > > by Keith Crim]
                  > > >
                  > > > The birth of Guru Nanak and the founding
                  > > > of Sikhism reportedly began in 1469:
                  > > >
                  > > > Sikhism is the youngest of the World Religions,
                  > > > barely 500 years old. It was founded by Siri Guru
                  > > > Nanak Dev Ji in 1469 who laid the basic principles
                  > > > of Sikhism. It offered the people a simple Sikh
                  > > > religion teaching "Oneness of God", whose name
                  > > > is TRUTH. Nine Gurus followed him who all reinforced
                  > > > and added to what was taught by the first Guru. After
                  > > > which in 1708, the holy book of the Sikhs, The Siri
                  > > > GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI was Proclaimed to be the
                  > > > only Guru by the last Guru, Siri Guru Gobind Singh Ji.
                  > > > This holy book embodies the philosophy and fundamentals
                  > > > of Sikhism. It is the only holy book of a major religion
                  > > > which was written and authenticated by its founders.
                  > >
                  > > *** Try this address-
                  > > http://www.sikh.net/publications/View/roots.htm
                  > > ***
                  > >
                  > > > The only holy book of a major religion
                  > > > which was written and authenticated by
                  > > > its founders. That sounds like a first to
                  > > > me.
                  > > >
                  > > > Etznab
                  > >
                  >
                • Elizabeth
                  Hey Prometheus, guess I should explain my thoughts further on this topic? Klemp and Company were in fact counseled on what should and should not be shared
                  Message 8 of 18 , Aug 8, 2007
                    Hey Prometheus, guess I should explain my thoughts further on this topic?
                     
                    Klemp and Company were in fact counseled on what should and should not be shared publicly.  They (he) was also advised on what to remove from the *history* of eckankar, pertaining to PT and DG.  Buying up old material so the new members won't have access, warning members to stay off the computer...  All part of keeping their membership in the dark.  Some listen, some don't.  But there will always be the gullable willing to put on those rose colored glasses and develop tunnel vision.        
                     
                    So how does a god man down play or avoid having to deal with *issues*?    The org pays these bottom duelers (eck lawyers) big money to keep them out of trouble!  Did someone advise klemp in 1983, I give up!  But I do know back in the day, we were warned not to keep any of DG's material, burn it all....  Then warning of what would happen if the membership didn't comply, as you mentioned how the org put *fear* into the membership.  "spiritual immaturity" .    And that lam excuse that Klemp is of a higher consciousness than the godman that invented the path...  Another example of why we shouldn't hang on to old PT material!   Not sure what klemp will pull out of his A** in future years; maybe PT will be in the back ground like those FLEMs?    Hey what's the story on the next FLEM announcement?  Oct is coming up real soon.....        
                     
                    And what about when he is too darn sick to show up at all....  Or god forbid, what if he kicks the bucket?  Will they put a talking head up on a big screen at the seminars and claim klemp is alive and well, use a curtain to cover up the controls going on behind the scenes?  LOL  now that I know the truth behind the lies, it will be very entertaining when they end up having to announce a new LEM.  Who is willing to carry on the BS / Rod?  Maybe the so called LEM is training isn't ready because, well he just isn't willing to take on the burden, or maybe....   There isn't anyone in line, and klemp would like to go crawl under a rock somewhere and disappear?  Is the org / business willable?  
                     
                      
                    Conspiracy...  To cover up the dirty little secrets of the org.  ;-)  Klemp isn't smart enough to handle this without lawyers.  Though every time he opens his mouth he still looks stupid!  Lawyers aren't paid to increase the IQ of a godman... Shouldn't he already be at a level far more superior than the population of the entire universe!  Wonder what initiation level these lawyers are at, to be able to have some control over how the godman handles his org / business?   
                     
                     
                     
                    Liz  
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                    Prometheus wrote:
                     
                    Anyway, I doubt that Klemp is forbidden by law or settlement
                    to say anything negative about Gross after re-reading the
                    1983 H.I. Meeting comments that Klemp makes involving DG.
                    These comments by Klemp are both negative and misleading.
                     
                    Prometheus wrote:
                     
                    HK's spin and threat is that Anyone Discussing DG
                    or Questioning the validity of anything pertaining
                    to the ECKANKAR Religion indicates a "spiritual
                    immaturity."
                     
                    Liz wrote:
                    Actually one of the easiest ways to control the group, is by claiming
                    the above... but the truth of the matter is, HK was advised by his
                    Lawyers that he should be very careful of what eckankrap and Klemp puts
                    out there in the eck community concerning DG.  And vis a versa, DG is
                    restricted on what he can share or say due to certain laws.
                    >
                    Klemp has found a way to threaten his flock, all the while also
                    protecting his rock pile of gold.  *Fear* is the ultimate control
                    factor; it works in most cases....
                     
                     
                     
                     
                  • prometheus_973
                    Hi Liz, You make some good points. I wonder- What is Gross still getting paid per month from ECKANKAR (HK) for keeping his mouth shut? Shouldn t HK share this
                    Message 9 of 18 , Aug 8, 2007
                      Hi Liz,
                      You make some good points. I wonder- What is Gross still
                      getting paid per month from ECKANKAR (HK) for keeping
                      his mouth shut? Shouldn't HK share this information with
                      the membership? I think so! Why hide it or ignore the fact
                      that people want to know the details even today! There has
                      to be a settlement and monthly check to Gross right?!
                      Otherwise, Darwin and company would be online attacking
                      Klemp and sharing juicy little tid-bits of info on Klemp and
                      his crew. The lack of such activity indicates that hush money
                      is still being paid out.

                      On the other hand... since DG fell from Grace AFTER 10/22/81
                      could it be that he has NOW been reinstated as an ECK Master
                      by the SUGMAD. Afterall, Klemp doesn't know everything about
                      all of the ECK Masters, or Who they are, or of their status.
                      If HK did know everything he'd know the name of that
                      "Unknown ECK Master" that he has written about.

                      So, Why doesn't Klemp reach out to Gross and recognize him
                      as an ECK Master? Has DG Not atoned for his sins, or were they
                      really Klemp's sins. DG lived Large and HK lives Small and that
                      was DG's real sin because spiritual people can't disregard money
                      by spending it and buying a private jet, or having an expense
                      account. Hmmmmm I wonder how HK spends his money? Does
                      he donate money to the local community to help others? How
                      much if any? Where are the financial statements? Is there a
                      reason this is not shared with the General EK Membership
                      who donate their hard earned money via their Membership
                      Donation, Book, CD, Audio & Video, and jewerly purchases.
                      Of course these are just a few of the income sources of the
                      EK org. Why not share this info at the World Wide Seminar
                      to 2nds and above?

                      As far as Joan becoming a FLEM or Co-LEM... well, it's still
                      possible. HK can still be the Mahanta and Joan can become
                      a 12th and possibly a 13th for the rest of her days. But then,
                      she would be next in line to take over as the Mahanta if Klemp
                      croaked (like PT) without a Male successor being named. Or,
                      maybe HK has a Will (that he updates) where he does make
                      a Male selection for the 974th (4th) position. Except, if Joan
                      is the 974th LEM.

                      Prometheus





                      Elizabeth wrote:
                      >
                      > Hey Prometheus, guess I should explain my thoughts further on this topic?
                      >
                      > Klemp and Company were in fact counseled on what should and should not be
                      > shared publicly. They (he) was also advised on what to remove from the
                      > *history* of eckankar, pertaining to PT and DG. Buying up old material so
                      > the new members won't have access, warning members to stay off the computer.
                      > . All part of keeping their membership in the dark. Some listen, some don
                      > t. But there will always be the gullable willing to put on those rose
                      > colored glasses and develop tunnel vision.
                      >
                      > So how does a god man down play or avoid having to deal with *issues*?
                      > The org pays these bottom duelers (eck lawyers) big money to keep them out
                      > of trouble! Did someone advise klemp in 1983, I give up! But I do know
                      > back in the day, we were warned not to keep any of DG's material, burn it
                      > all.... Then warning of what would happen if the membership didn't comply,
                      > as you mentioned how the org put *fear* into the membership. "spiritual
                      > immaturity" . And that lam excuse that Klemp is of a higher consciousness
                      > than the godman that invented the path... Another example of why we shouldn
                      > t hang on to old PT material! Not sure what klemp will pull out of his A**
                      > in future years; maybe PT will be in the back ground like those FLEMs?
                      > Hey what's the story on the next FLEM announcement? Oct is coming up real
                      > soon.....
                      >
                      > And what about when he is too darn sick to show up at all.... Or god forbid
                      > what if he kicks the bucket? Will they put a talking head up on a big
                      > screen at the seminars and claim klemp is alive and well, use a curtain to
                      > cover up the controls going on behind the scenes? LOL now that I know the
                      > truth behind the lies, it will be very entertaining when they end up having
                      > to announce a new LEM. Who is willing to carry on the BS / Rod? Maybe the
                      > so called LEM is training isn't ready because, well he just isn't willing to
                      > take on the burden, or maybe.... There isn't anyone in line, and klemp
                      > would like to go crawl under a rock somewhere and disappear? Is the org /
                      > business willable?
                      >
                      >
                      > Conspiracy... To cover up the dirty little secrets of the org. ;-) Klemp
                      > isn't smart enough to handle this without lawyers. Though every time he
                      > opens his mouth he still looks stupid! Lawyers aren't paid to increase the
                      > IQ of a godman... Shouldn't he already be at a level far more superior than
                      > the population of the entire universe! Wonder what initiation level these
                      > lawyers are at, to be able to have some control over how the godman handles
                      > his org / business?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Liz
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Prometheus wrote:
                      >
                      > Anyway, I doubt that Klemp is forbidden by law or settlement
                      > to say anything negative about Gross after re-reading the
                      > 1983 H.I. Meeting comments that Klemp makes involving DG.
                      > These comments by Klemp are both negative and misleading.
                      >
                      > Prometheus wrote:
                      >
                      > HK's spin and threat is that Anyone Discussing DG
                      > or Questioning the validity of anything pertaining
                      > to the ECKANKAR Religion indicates a "spiritual
                      > immaturity."
                      >
                      > Liz wrote:
                      > Actually one of the easiest ways to control the group, is by claiming
                      > the above... but the truth of the matter is, HK was advised by his
                      > Lawyers that he should be very careful of what eckankrap and Klemp puts
                      > out there in the eck community concerning DG. And vis a versa, DG is
                      > restricted on what he can share or say due to certain laws.
                      > >
                      > Klemp has found a way to threaten his flock, all the while also
                      > protecting his rock pile of gold. *Fear* is the ultimate control
                      > factor; it works in most cases....
                      >
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