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Re: Fwd: David Lane's response to Doug Marm...

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  • mishmisha9
    Hi, Etznab, Prometheus & All! The thing I like so much about Etznab is his quest for truth and getting the facts straight. So many people are too lazy to do
    Message 1 of 18 , Aug 4 10:45 AM
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      Hi, Etznab, Prometheus & All!

      The thing I like so much about Etznab is his quest for
      truth and getting the facts straight. So many people are
      too lazy to do that search and/or seem not to care.
      Ignorance and truth will always be at odds with one
      another. But questioning like Etznab does and looking
      at all possible sources with a seemingly open-mind
      is really admirable!

      Even though we might appear to be searching for
      different aspects of certain truths and obviously in
      disagreement in some ways, there is no doubt that
      we are united in seeking out the ONE TRUTH! Thanks,
      for your posts, Etznab! : )

      This is a snipped portion of Etznab's post then appears
      completely along with Prometheus' reply at the bottom
      of this post.

      Etznab wrote:
      "Let me just say that it appears to come down to this. If
      scholars, scientists, doctors, preachers (whathaveyou) are
      knowingly ignorant about the whole truth and certain facts
      about history, this appears to mean that:

      SOMEDAY, SOMEONE IS GOING TO HAVE TO DO
      SOMETHING ABOUT IT! PERIOD!

      It may take a hundred or a thousand years (and in some
      cases it has), and the longer that people go on believing in
      what is "said to be true" (but is, in fact, wrong), the harder
      it is going to be for those who find and then try to share the
      truth.

      I'm talking about the "peer pressure" (a euphemism) of
      taking on the "establishment" or the established views of
      science, medicine, religion or academia in general that
      are based on theories and not the whole - or not even the
      actual - truth.

      How do I know this? I looked at history. The history of
      so many things. I looked at how many different versions
      there were/are. And I looked at what people have done to
      oneanother as a result of ... IGNORANCE! Not knowing
      the whole truth.

      Plain and simple

      Etznab"

      Good comments, Etznab!
      I believe we have to be willing to challenge the status quo
      and not buy into all the spins that are presented. People,
      especially leaders in power, have so many things to possibly
      gain by not being truthful and they also like to manipulate
      others to accomplish their personal gain and advantage.
      When someone starts up something like a "new religion", one
      really has to look at the motivating factors in doing such a thing.
      What is the real purpose, and who is really benefitting and in what
      ways! (Many of these leaders/powerful beings are just plain
      sociopaths and/or narcissists!)

      Of course, we need to question more than we do! We need
      to challenge and question what is going on! It all comes back
      to the mantra of QUESTION AUTHORITY (especially, those who
      are only perceived as authorities! LOL!) There is no easy street,
      but many try to find one by remaining trusting without doubt!
      This to me is what organized religion is--all of them!

      Mish


      ##########################################
      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
      etznab@... wrote:
      >
      > In a message dated 7/23/07 10:38:03 AM Central Daylight
      Time, prometheus_973@... writes:
      >
      >
      > > Hi Etznab,
      > > I'm certain that there are many reasons for Patti
      > > Simpson and Gail Atkinson Twitchell Gross Andersen,
      > > etc., saying what they have.
      > >
      > > One reason could be a permanent non-disclosure
      > > agreement with Eckankar. Another reason is that the
      > > bitter truth (in hindsight) would be a tough pill to swallow
      > > for them. They are trying to project a certain "image"
      > > above the negative reality of the scam (damage control)
      > > and to portray a self-image of innocence from any wrong
      > > doing on their part. Although, Gail was the main influence
      > > upon Paul to start the scam Patti (and Gail especially) knew
      > > that Paul did not fit his new 1969 "Mahanta" definition!
      > >
      > > Therefore, both Patti and Gail and even Steiger have to
      > > portray Twitchell as a Godman, Prophet, Seer, Saviour,
      > > etc. just as Klemp must do. Don't forget that Gail saw to
      > > it that Gross replaced Paul in more ways than one, and
      > > that Patti went along with it! However, this makes me
      > > wonder, once again, When (1984?) and Why did Patti
      > > Simpson R. leave Eckankar?
      > >
      > > On another note, what is Klemp's connection to Twitchell
      > > the founder of Eckankar? It is the fake Eck Master Rebazar!
      > > Twit used Rebazar as a replacement for Kiral Singh and
      > > Klemp used/uses Rebazar as a replacement for Twitchell
      > > since Gross was defrocked! If Darwin Gross had Not Been
      > > booted from Eckankar he would still be the Mahanta and
      > > Klemp would still be the LEM! It was just a typical power
      > > struggle and Klemp was able to play-the-game better than
      > > Gross.
      > >
      > > It seems, Gross was more innocent of these negative power-
      > > struggle methods than most Eckists give him credit for.
      > >
      > > Prometheus
      > >
      >
      > Prometheus,
      >
      > I would have to agree with the fact that reasons exist
      > why history often appears amiss. Honestly though, I do
      > not know all the reasons. And if I did, history would not
      > appear to me as great a "puzzle". It would instead look
      > more like "the whole picture" or "the whole truth".
      >
      > There was an interesting article last week about why
      > people living in FEMA trailors were not made aware of
      > the possible health hazards in some. I want to quote it
      > AND repost part of a thread from A.R.E to highlight a
      > few of the possible reasons behind the apparent dilema
      > standing in the way of accurate history.
      >
      > *********
      >
      > "FEMA Administrator David Paulison promised Thursday
      > [07/19/07] to warn tens of thousands of displaced victims
      > of Hurricane Katrina that they are living in agency trailers
      > that may be contaminated with dangerously high levels of
      > formaldehyde gas. [....] 'Do not initiate any testing until we
      > give the OK,' an agency attorney replied in an e-mail dated
      > June 15, 2006. 'Once you get results and should they indicate
      > some problem, the clock is running on our duty to respond to
      > them.'
      > "An agency memo dated the following day said the office of
      > general counsel 'has advised that we do not do testing, which
      > would imply FEMA's owernship of this issue.'
      > "The 5,000 pages of e-mails and memos were released last
      > week under threat of subpoena after FEMA initially claimed lawyer-
      > client privilege. [....]"
      >
      > [Based on: Cox News Service article (FEMA ignored trailer danger,
      > e-mails say), p. A3, S.L.P.D., 07/20/07]
      >
      > *********
      > [A.R.E. article ("Getting a Rational Grip on Religion")
      > by Etznab, dated Jul 21, 12:54 pm - Partial Repost]
      >
      > I thought this Scientific American article from January
      > 2006: "Getting a Rational Grip on Religion" might offer
      > a few things for contemplation - if anyone is interested.
      >
      > When referring to a book by Daniel Dennett,
      > director of the Center for Cognitive Studies at
      > Tufts University, the article reads:
      >
      > .... Dennett hopes that his book will be read not
      > just by atheists and agnostics but by the religiously
      > faithful - and that they will come to see the wisdom
      > of analyzing their deepest beliefs scientifically,
      > weeding out the harmful from the good. The spell he
      > hopes to break, he suggests, is not religious belief
      > itself but the conviction that its details are off-limits
      > to scientific inquiry, taboo. ....
      >
      > Etznab
      >
      > *********
      >
      > A link to the full article (a book review) can be found at
      >
      > http://www.templeton-cambridge.org/fellows/johnson/publications/2005....
      >
      > I'm not going to spell it all out here, but give this link instead.
      > A quote from the 3rd-last paragraph is one I would like to draw
      > attention to:
      >
      > "Every minister in every faith is like a jazz musician," he writes,
      > "keeping traditions alive by playing the beloved standards the way
      > they are supposed to be played, but also incessantly gauging and
      > deciding, slowing the pace or speeding up, deleting or adding another
      > phrase to a prayer, mixing familiarity and novelty in just the right
      > proportions to grab the minds and hearts of the listeners in attend-
      > ance."
      >
      > *********
      >
      > I don't want to make this a long post, but will try and share
      > what I'm looking at.
      >
      > For whatever reasons, certain facts about history can end
      > up secret, mysterious, hidden, or occult. Later on when one
      > begins to search for the truth, or the missing pieces, the task
      > is not always pleasant. Maybe not in this day and age, but in
      > the past people (PEOPLE WHO WERE RIGHT!) were burned
      > alive, tortured to recant, or more or less silenced for the task
      > of discovering the truth. Examples are numerous. And I have
      > not even addressed the topic of wars or crusades initiated on
      > false pretense.
      >
      > I wish there were more time to write about this concisely,
      > and by giving examples. That I could take the time to find
      > the best way to illustrate what I am looking at.
      >
      > Let me just say that it appears to come down to this. If
      > scholars, scientists, doctors, preachers (whathaveyou) are
      > knowingly ignorant about the whole truth and certain facts
      > about history, this appears to mean that:
      >
      > SOMEDAY, SOMEONE IS GOING TO HAVE TO DO
      > SOMETHING ABOUT IT! PERIOD!
      >
      > It may take a hundred or a thousand years (and in some
      > cases it has), and the longer that people go on believing in
      > what is "said to be true" (but is, in fact, wrong), the harder
      > it is going to be for those who find and then try to share the
      > truth.
      >
      > I'm talking about the "peer pressure" (a euphemism) of
      > taking on the "establishment" or the established views of
      > science, medicine, religion or academia in general that
      > are based on theories and not the whole - or not even the
      > actual - truth.
      >
      > How do I know this? I looked at history. The history of
      > so many things. I looked at how many different versions
      > there were/are. And I looked at what people have done to
      > oneanother as a result of ... IGNORANCE! Not knowing
      > the whole truth.
      >
      > Plain and simple
      >
      > Etznab
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >

      > **************************************
      > Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
      > http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
      >
    • Elizabeth
      Hi all, Mish thanks for adding Etznab s comments! I am sooo guilty of not keeping up with ESA and a few other important pet peeves. Life can really run us in
      Message 2 of 18 , Aug 4 11:58 AM
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        Hi all,
         
        Mish thanks for adding Etznab's comments!  I am sooo guilty of not keeping up with ESA and a few other important pet peeves. Life can really run us in many directions.  Though I keep promising myself I will find time to look in on the group more often...  Now it seems I really need to catch up on the messages, since I really do enjoy reading Etznab's research and comments. 
         
        It is finally the weekend, so I am trying to play catchup on house work, email and maybe even resting?   Not sure how much reading I will accomplish today, so far finding ESA very thought provoking!  You guys are doing a really thorough job!!!  Keep up the excellent work! 
         
        Elizabeth          
         
         
        Find me on MySpace and be my friend!
         
         
         
        -------Original Message-------
         
        Date: 8/4/2007 1:47:04 PM
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Fwd: David Lane's response to Doug Marm...
         
        Hi, Etznab, Prometheus & All!
         
        The thing I like so much about Etznab is his quest for
        truth and getting the facts straight. So many people are
        too lazy to do that search and/or seem not to care.
        Ignorance and truth will always be at odds with one
        another. But questioning like Etznab does and looking
        at all possible sources with a seemingly open-mind
        is really admirable!
         
        Even though we might appear to be searching for
        different aspects of certain truths and obviously in
        disagreement in some ways, there is no doubt that
        we are united in seeking out the ONE TRUTH! Thanks,
        for your posts, Etznab! : )
         
        This is a snipped portion of Etznab's post then appears
        completely along with Prometheus' reply at the bottom
        of this post.
         
        Etznab wrote:
        "Let me just say that it appears to come down to this. If
        scholars, scientists, doctors, preachers (whathaveyou) are
        knowingly ignorant about the whole truth and certain facts
        about history, this appears to mean that:
         
        SOMEDAY, SOMEONE IS GOING TO HAVE TO DO
        SOMETHING ABOUT IT! PERIOD!
         
           It may take a hundred or a thousand years (and in some
        cases it has), and the longer that people go on believing in
        what is "said to be true" (but is, in fact, wrong), the harder
        it is going to be for those who find and then try to share the
        truth.
         
           I'm talking about the "peer pressure" (a euphemism) of
        taking on the "establishment" or the established views of
        science, medicine, religion or academia in general that
        are based on theories and not the whole - or not even the
        actual - truth.
         
           How do I know this? I looked at history. The history of
        so many things. I looked at how many different versions
        there were/are. And I looked at what people have done to
        oneanother as a result of ... IGNORANCE! Not knowing
        the whole truth.
         
           Plain and simple
         
        Etznab"
         
        Good comments, Etznab!
        I believe we have to be willing to challenge the status quo
        and not buy into all the spins that are presented. People,
        especially leaders in power, have so many things to possibly
        gain by not being truthful and they also like to manipulate
        others to accomplish their  personal gain and advantage.
        When someone starts up something like a "new religion", one
        really has to look at the motivating factors in doing such a thing.
        What is the real purpose, and who is really benefitting and in what
        ways! (Many of these leaders/powerful beings are just plain
        sociopaths and/or narcissists!)
         
        Of course, we need to question more than we do! We need
        to challenge and question what is going on! It all comes back
        to the mantra of QUESTION AUTHORITY (especially, those who
        are only perceived as authorities! LOL!) There is no easy street,
        but many try to find one by remaining trusting without doubt!
        This to me is what organized religion is--all of them!
         
        Mish
         
         
        ##########################################
          etznab@... wrote:
        >
        > In a message dated 7/23/07 10:38:03 AM Central Daylight
        Time,  prometheus_973@... writes:
        >
        >
        > > Hi Etznab,
        > > I'm certain that there are many reasons for Patti
        > > Simpson and Gail Atkinson Twitchell Gross Andersen,
        > > etc., saying what they have.
        > >
        > > One reason could be a permanent non-disclosure
        > > agreement with Eckankar. Another reason is that the
        > > bitter truth (in hindsight) would be a tough pill to swallow
        > > for them. They are trying to project a certain "image"
        > > above the negative reality of the scam (damage control)
        > > and to portray a self-image of innocence from any wrong
        > > doing on their part. Although, Gail was the main influence
        > > upon Paul to start the scam Patti (and Gail especially) knew
        > > that Paul did not fit his new 1969 "Mahanta" definition!
        > >
        > > Therefore, both Patti and Gail and even Steiger have to
        > > portray Twitchell as a Godman, Prophet, Seer, Saviour,
        > > etc. just as Klemp must do. Don't forget that Gail saw to
        > > it that Gross replaced Paul in more ways than one, and
        > > that Patti went along with it! However, this makes me
        > > wonder, once again, When (1984?) and Why did Patti
        > > Simpson R. leave Eckankar?
        > >
        > > On another note, what is Klemp's connection to Twitchell
        > > the founder of Eckankar? It is the fake Eck Master Rebazar!
        > > Twit used Rebazar as a replacement for Kiral Singh and
        > > Klemp used/uses Rebazar as a replacement for Twitchell
        > > since Gross was defrocked! If Darwin Gross had Not Been
        > > booted from Eckankar he would still be the Mahanta and
        > > Klemp would still be the LEM! It was just a typical power
        > > struggle and Klemp was able to play-the-game better than
        > > Gross.
        > >
        > > It seems, Gross was more innocent of these negative power-
        > > struggle methods than most Eckists give him credit for.
        > >
        > > Prometheus
        > >
        >
        >    Prometheus,
        >
        >    I would have to agree with the fact that reasons exist
        > why history often appears amiss. Honestly though, I do
        > not know all the reasons. And if I did, history would not
        > appear to me as great a "puzzle". It would instead look
        > more like "the whole picture" or "the whole truth".
        >
        >    There was an interesting article last week about why
        > people living in FEMA trailors were not made aware of
        > the possible health hazards in some. I want to quote it
        > AND repost part of a thread from A.R.E to highlight a
        > few of the possible reasons behind the apparent dilema
        > standing in the way of accurate history.
        >
        > *********
        >
        >    "FEMA Administrator David Paulison promised Thursday
        > [07/19/07] to warn tens of thousands of displaced victims
        > of Hurricane Katrina that they are living in agency trailers
        > that may be contaminated with dangerously high levels of
        > formaldehyde gas. [....] 'Do not initiate any testing until we
        > give the OK,' an agency attorney replied in an e-mail dated
        > June 15, 2006. 'Once you get results and should they indicate
        > some problem, the clock is running on our duty to respond to
        > them.'
        >    "An agency memo dated the following day said the office of
        > general counsel 'has advised that we do not do testing, which
        > would imply FEMA's owernship of this issue.'
        >    "The 5,000 pages of e-mails and memos were released last
        > week under threat of subpoena after FEMA initially claimed lawyer-
        > client privilege. [....]"
        >
        > [Based on: Cox News Service article (FEMA ignored trailer danger,
        > e-mails say), p. A3,   S.L.P.D., 07/20/07]
        >
        > *********
        > [A.R.E. article ("Getting a Rational Grip on Religion")
        > by Etznab, dated Jul 21, 12:54 pm - Partial Repost]
        >
        >    I thought this Scientific American article from January
        > 2006: "Getting a Rational Grip on Religion" might offer
        > a few things for contemplation - if anyone is interested.
        >
        >     When referring to a book by Daniel Dennett,
        > director of the Center for Cognitive Studies at
        > Tufts University, the article reads:
        >
        > .... Dennett hopes that his book will be read not
        > just by atheists and agnostics but by the religiously
        > faithful - and that they will come to see the wisdom
        > of analyzing their deepest beliefs scientifically,
        > weeding out the harmful from the good. The spell he
        > hopes to break, he suggests, is not religious belief
        > itself but the conviction that its details are off-limits
        > to scientific inquiry, taboo. ....
        >
        > Etznab
        >
        > *********
        >
        >    A link to the full article (a book review) can be found at
        >
        >
        >    I'm not going to spell it all out here, but give this link instead.
        > A quote from the 3rd-last paragraph is one I would like to draw
        > attention to:
        >
        > "Every minister in every faith is like a jazz musician," he writes,
        > "keeping traditions alive by playing the beloved standards the way
        > they are supposed to be played, but also incessantly gauging and
        > deciding, slowing the pace or speeding up, deleting or adding another
        > phrase to a prayer, mixing familiarity and novelty in just the right
        > proportions to grab the minds and hearts of the listeners in attend-
        > ance."
        >
        > *********
        >
        >    I don't want to make this a long post, but will try and share
        > what I'm looking at.
        >
        >    For whatever reasons, certain facts about history can end
        > up secret, mysterious, hidden, or occult. Later on when one
        > begins to search for the truth, or the missing pieces, the task
        > is not always pleasant. Maybe not in this day and age, but in
        > the past people (PEOPLE WHO WERE RIGHT!) were burned
        > alive, tortured to recant, or more or less silenced for the task
        > of discovering the truth. Examples are numerous. And I have
        > not even addressed the topic of wars or crusades initiated on
        > false pretense.
        >
        >    I wish there were more time to write about this concisely,
        > and by giving examples. That I could take the time to find
        > the best way to illustrate what I am looking at.
        >
        >    Let me just say that it appears to come down to this. If
        > scholars, scientists, doctors, preachers (whathaveyou) are
        > knowingly ignorant about the whole truth and certain facts
        > about history, this appears to mean that:
        >
        > SOMEDAY, SOMEONE IS GOING TO HAVE TO DO
        > SOMETHING ABOUT IT! PERIOD!
        >
        >    It may take a hundred or a thousand years (and in some
        > cases it has), and the longer that people go on believing in
        > what is "said to be true" (but is, in fact, wrong), the harder
        > it is going to be for those who find and then try to share the
        > truth.
        >
        >    I'm talking about the "peer pressure" (a euphemism) of
        > taking on the "establishment" or the established views of
        > science, medicine, religion or academia in general that
        > are based on theories and not the whole - or not even the
        > actual - truth.
        >
        >    How do I know this? I looked at history. The history of
        > so many things. I looked at how many different versions
        > there were/are. And I looked at what people have done to
        > oneanother as a result of ... IGNORANCE! Not knowing
        > the whole truth.
        >
        >    Plain and simple
        >
        > Etznab
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
         
        > **************************************
        >  Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
        >
         
         
         
         
         
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      • etznab@aol.com
        Comments to the posts by Mish and Liz. Years ago people were not able to question without the fear of being excommunicated, or even worse. People who went
        Message 3 of 18 , Aug 4 6:35 PM
        • 0 Attachment

             Comments to the posts by Mish and Liz.

             Years ago people were not able to question
          without the fear of being excommunicated, or
          even worse. People who went about translating
          the Bible into common language so that more
          people could read it besides the clergy alone,
          what do you think happened to them?

             Think about it this way, in a sense it was like
          letting people know what the clergy knew, and
          giving everybody the right to look at the records
          that their religion was based on.

             At first it wasn't popular and people were
          burned at the stake for translating the Bible
          into the common language. Even for having
          a Bible in their possession!

             Eventually word got out and the printing
          press came along so that people were able
          to read the Bible for themselves.

             But you know what? With all of the sects
          and isms since that time, people continue
          to excommunicate or shun others who ask
          the wrong questions. This is most peculiar
          if you ask me. Not that everybody is doing
          this kind of thing to everybody else, but the
          fear to ask questions would probably not be
          so powerful if it were not reinforced by all of
          the people who are afraid to do exactly that.

             Peer pressure is a strong influence, and
          being the minority often means being at the
          mercy of the majority. It doesn't matter if
          the majority is right or wrong, but it comes
          down to numbers amounting to power. Even
          monetary wealth where the rich - those with
          the most cash - win most of the government.

             So what I'm alluding to is that people tend
          to follow the majority. A form of "herd instinct"
          or just plain wanting to be accepted, to fit in
          and have the freedoms that other people do.
          In the past, fitting in meant staying alive! It
          didn't matter what you agreed with, so long
          as you agreed with those in power. Those in
          the majority.

             The Gutenburg Bible was printed in 1455.
          The crusading movent ended in 1464:

          "When Constantinople fell in 1453 and Pius II
          was unable to initiate a further campaign before
          his death in 1464, the crusading movement came
          to an end."  

          [The Perennial Dictionary of World Religions,
          by Keith Crim]

             The birth of Guru Nanak and the founding
          of Sikhism reportedly began in 1469:

          Sikhism is the youngest of the World Religions,
          barely 500 years old. It was founded by Siri Guru
          Nanak Dev Ji in 1469 who laid the basic principles
          of Sikhism. It offered the people a simple Sikh
          religion teaching "Oneness of God", whose name
          is TRUTH. Nine Gurus followed him who all reinforced
          and added to what was taught by the first Guru. After
          which in 1708, the holy book of the Sikhs, The Siri
          GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI was Proclaimed to be the
          only Guru by the last Guru, Siri Guru Gobind Singh Ji.
          This holy book embodies the philosophy and fundamentals
          of Sikhism. It is the only holy book of a major religion
          which was written and authenticated by its founders.

          http://www.sikh.net/SIKHISM/Sikhism.htm

             The only holy book of a major religion
          which was written and authenticated by
          its founders. That sounds like a first to
          me.

          Etznab


            



          **************************************
          Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
        • prometheus_973
          Hello All, I enjoyed this post. Yes, ECKists are discouraged from questioning anything. Questioning EK Dogma and it s validity or the works of Paul Twitchell
          Message 4 of 18 , Aug 6 11:49 AM
          • 0 Attachment
            Hello All,
            I enjoyed this post. Yes, ECKists are discouraged
            from questioning anything. Questioning EK Dogma
            and it's validity or the works of Paul Twitchell are
            a NO NO! Also, ECKists are Not EVEN Permitted to
            say Darwin Gross' name! And DG WAS the 972nd
            LEM/Mahanta! Thus, EKists are certainly NOT
            PERMITTED to discuss anything pertaining to
            or events prior to DG's expulsion (excommunication)!

            HK's spin and threat is that Anyone Discussing DG
            or Questioning the validity of anything pertaining
            to the ECKANKAR Religion indicates a "spiritual
            immaturity." And, therefore, when a Chela is "spiritually
            immature" they Are Not Grounded In The ECK Works
            and, thus, Will Not (normally) be allowed to teach/
            facilitate Book Discussions, or Satsang Classes, etc.
            These Chelas, too, Will Not (normally) be given "settler"
            or "explorer" positions of Authority, and their Initiations
            Will Be Delayed or frozen by the ESC and/or RESA. This
            is a form of Black Listing and Shunning that all religions
            practice when followers question the "Authority" of their
            Religious Leaders. Blind faith and an imagination of heaven,
            angels, masters, prophets, etc. works well for all religions!

            Klemp's re-editing, eliminating, and cover-up of Twitchell's
            sources, and works is simple damage control. This cleansing
            has eliminated many of the blatant contradictions within the
            (revised) Dogma. However, Klemp's Lutheran roots has also
            given ECKANKAR a more intolerant Christian influence.

            In ECKANKAR there are two goals that are promoted
            over all others - SELF-MASTERY and SPIRITUAL FREEDOM
            IN THIS LIFETIME.

            However, these two are impossible to achieve due to
            the way in which the EK INITIATIONS are designed. Only
            the "MALE" LEM/Mahanta can achieve this Self-Mastery
            and Spiritual Freedom through Initiation! Otherwise the
            highest EK initiation possible (while in a physical body)
            is the 9th. And, only a handful of Chelas become 8th
            and 9th Initiates!

            The truth is that ECKANKAR practically forces followers to
            jump through hoops to become leaders via trainings,
            positions, etc. in order for them to acquire initiations.
            And, these initiations are to lead to and/or indicate higher
            consciousness and spirituality. Of course, Trained Leaders
            also bring in more followers and revenue ($$$). It's really
            just a sham because the longer one remains in ECKANKAR
            and the higher the initiation rank merely indicates the
            LACK of Spiritual Freedom and Self-Mastery and Individuality
            (uniqueness of Soul) that these Follower/Leaders have!
            Their length of Membership and Rank shows how deluded,
            egotistical, and power hungry they have become.

            Thus, ECKANKAR wants, needs, and forces Chelas to conform,
            although, this religion was/is proclaimed to be an Individual
            Path that leads to greater Freedom. However, the longer one
            stays in ECKANKAR the more one's original focus is lost, and
            the more one loses their ability to discern truth from fiction.
            Critical thinking, logic, common sense, and rational thought
            are replaced by blind faith, misplaced trust, and Dogmatic
            imagination. In truth ALL ECKists are trained to become
            FOLLOWERS of their earthly leader Klemp (the LEM/Mahanta).
            NEVER will ECKists be permitted to leave the influence of the
            Mahanta even in some "Future" of their imagined Higher Inner
            Planes. ECKANKAR promotes cycles of of redundant and limited
            imagings with a lot of promises - prophets - angel/masters
            to keep people distracted from the Truth and of their own
            abilities as Free Souls - including their own Self-Mastery
            without the need for a "Religious/Spiritual Leader" stealing
            their money, their Reality, and original goals as Seekers.

            Prometheus







            Comments to the posts by Mish and Liz.
            >
            > Years ago people were not able to question
            > without the fear of being excommunicated, or
            > even worse. People who went about translating
            > the Bible into common language so that more
            > people could read it besides the clergy alone,
            > what do you think happened to them?
            >
            > Think about it this way, in a sense it was like
            > letting people know what the clergy knew, and
            > giving everybody the right to look at the records
            > that their religion was based on.
            >
            > At first it wasn't popular and people were
            > burned at the stake for translating the Bible
            > into the common language. Even for having
            > a Bible in their possession!
            >
            > Eventually word got out and the printing
            > press came along so that people were able
            > to read the Bible for themselves.
            >
            > But you know what? With all of the sects
            > and isms since that time, people continue
            > to excommunicate or shun others who ask
            > the wrong questions. This is most peculiar
            > if you ask me. Not that everybody is doing
            > this kind of thing to everybody else, but the
            > fear to ask questions would probably not be
            > so powerful if it were not reinforced by all of
            > the people who are afraid to do exactly that.
            >
            > Peer pressure is a strong influence, and
            > being the minority often means being at the
            > mercy of the majority. It doesn't matter if
            > the majority is right or wrong, but it comes
            > down to numbers amounting to power. Even
            > monetary wealth where the rich - those with
            > the most cash - win most of the government.
            >
            > So what I'm alluding to is that people tend
            > to follow the majority. A form of "herd instinct"
            > or just plain wanting to be accepted, to fit in
            > and have the freedoms that other people do.
            > In the past, fitting in meant staying alive! It
            > didn't matter what you agreed with, so long
            > as you agreed with those in power. Those in
            > the majority.
            >
            > The Gutenburg Bible was printed in 1455.
            > The crusading movent ended in 1464:
            >
            > "When Constantinople fell in 1453 and Pius II
            > was unable to initiate a further campaign before
            > his death in 1464, the crusading movement came
            > to an end."
            >
            > [The Perennial Dictionary of World Religions,
            > by Keith Crim]
            >
            > The birth of Guru Nanak and the founding
            > of Sikhism reportedly began in 1469:
            >
            > Sikhism is the youngest of the World Religions,
            > barely 500 years old. It was founded by Siri Guru
            > Nanak Dev Ji in 1469 who laid the basic principles
            > of Sikhism. It offered the people a simple Sikh
            > religion teaching "Oneness of God", whose name
            > is TRUTH. Nine Gurus followed him who all reinforced
            > and added to what was taught by the first Guru. After
            > which in 1708, the holy book of the Sikhs, The Siri
            > GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI was Proclaimed to be the
            > only Guru by the last Guru, Siri Guru Gobind Singh Ji.
            > This holy book embodies the philosophy and fundamentals
            > of Sikhism. It is the only holy book of a major religion
            > which was written and authenticated by its founders.

            *** Try this address-
            http://www.sikh.net/publications/View/roots.htm
            ***

            > The only holy book of a major religion
            > which was written and authenticated by
            > its founders. That sounds like a first to
            > me.
            >
            > Etznab
          • Steve
            Good Post! and right on the money! It is my belief that all initiations in eck are bogus with nothing to back them up. Does anyone anywhere really get an
            Message 5 of 18 , Aug 6 1:51 PM
            • 0 Attachment
              Good Post! and right on the money!
              It is my belief that all initiations in eck are bogus with nothing
              to back them up. Does anyone anywhere really get an initiation into
              the spiritual worlds?
              Steve

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
              <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hello All,
              > I enjoyed this post. Yes, ECKists are discouraged
              > from questioning anything. Questioning EK Dogma
              > and it's validity or the works of Paul Twitchell are
              > a NO NO! Also, ECKists are Not EVEN Permitted to
              > say Darwin Gross' name! And DG WAS the 972nd
              > LEM/Mahanta! Thus, EKists are certainly NOT
              > PERMITTED to discuss anything pertaining to
              > or events prior to DG's expulsion (excommunication)!
              >
              > HK's spin and threat is that Anyone Discussing DG
              > or Questioning the validity of anything pertaining
              > to the ECKANKAR Religion indicates a "spiritual
              > immaturity." And, therefore, when a Chela is "spiritually
              > immature" they Are Not Grounded In The ECK Works
              > and, thus, Will Not (normally) be allowed to teach/
              > facilitate Book Discussions, or Satsang Classes, etc.
              > These Chelas, too, Will Not (normally) be given "settler"
              > or "explorer" positions of Authority, and their Initiations
              > Will Be Delayed or frozen by the ESC and/or RESA. This
              > is a form of Black Listing and Shunning that all religions
              > practice when followers question the "Authority" of their
              > Religious Leaders. Blind faith and an imagination of heaven,
              > angels, masters, prophets, etc. works well for all religions!
              >
              > Klemp's re-editing, eliminating, and cover-up of Twitchell's
              > sources, and works is simple damage control. This cleansing
              > has eliminated many of the blatant contradictions within the
              > (revised) Dogma. However, Klemp's Lutheran roots has also
              > given ECKANKAR a more intolerant Christian influence.
              >
              > In ECKANKAR there are two goals that are promoted
              > over all others - SELF-MASTERY and SPIRITUAL FREEDOM
              > IN THIS LIFETIME.
              >
              > However, these two are impossible to achieve due to
              > the way in which the EK INITIATIONS are designed. Only
              > the "MALE" LEM/Mahanta can achieve this Self-Mastery
              > and Spiritual Freedom through Initiation! Otherwise the
              > highest EK initiation possible (while in a physical body)
              > is the 9th. And, only a handful of Chelas become 8th
              > and 9th Initiates!
              >
              > The truth is that ECKANKAR practically forces followers to
              > jump through hoops to become leaders via trainings,
              > positions, etc. in order for them to acquire initiations.
              > And, these initiations are to lead to and/or indicate higher
              > consciousness and spirituality. Of course, Trained Leaders
              > also bring in more followers and revenue ($$$). It's really
              > just a sham because the longer one remains in ECKANKAR
              > and the higher the initiation rank merely indicates the
              > LACK of Spiritual Freedom and Self-Mastery and Individuality
              > (uniqueness of Soul) that these Follower/Leaders have!
              > Their length of Membership and Rank shows how deluded,
              > egotistical, and power hungry they have become.
              >
              > Thus, ECKANKAR wants, needs, and forces Chelas to conform,
              > although, this religion was/is proclaimed to be an Individual
              > Path that leads to greater Freedom. However, the longer one
              > stays in ECKANKAR the more one's original focus is lost, and
              > the more one loses their ability to discern truth from fiction.
              > Critical thinking, logic, common sense, and rational thought
              > are replaced by blind faith, misplaced trust, and Dogmatic
              > imagination. In truth ALL ECKists are trained to become
              > FOLLOWERS of their earthly leader Klemp (the LEM/Mahanta).
              > NEVER will ECKists be permitted to leave the influence of the
              > Mahanta even in some "Future" of their imagined Higher Inner
              > Planes. ECKANKAR promotes cycles of of redundant and limited
              > imagings with a lot of promises - prophets - angel/masters
              > to keep people distracted from the Truth and of their own
              > abilities as Free Souls - including their own Self-Mastery
              > without the need for a "Religious/Spiritual Leader" stealing
              > their money, their Reality, and original goals as Seekers.
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Comments to the posts by Mish and Liz.
              > >
              > > Years ago people were not able to question
              > > without the fear of being excommunicated, or
              > > even worse. People who went about translating
              > > the Bible into common language so that more
              > > people could read it besides the clergy alone,
              > > what do you think happened to them?
              > >
              > > Think about it this way, in a sense it was like
              > > letting people know what the clergy knew, and
              > > giving everybody the right to look at the records
              > > that their religion was based on.
              > >
              > > At first it wasn't popular and people were
              > > burned at the stake for translating the Bible
              > > into the common language. Even for having
              > > a Bible in their possession!
              > >
              > > Eventually word got out and the printing
              > > press came along so that people were able
              > > to read the Bible for themselves.
              > >
              > > But you know what? With all of the sects
              > > and isms since that time, people continue
              > > to excommunicate or shun others who ask
              > > the wrong questions. This is most peculiar
              > > if you ask me. Not that everybody is doing
              > > this kind of thing to everybody else, but the
              > > fear to ask questions would probably not be
              > > so powerful if it were not reinforced by all of
              > > the people who are afraid to do exactly that.
              > >
              > > Peer pressure is a strong influence, and
              > > being the minority often means being at the
              > > mercy of the majority. It doesn't matter if
              > > the majority is right or wrong, but it comes
              > > down to numbers amounting to power. Even
              > > monetary wealth where the rich - those with
              > > the most cash - win most of the government.
              > >
              > > So what I'm alluding to is that people tend
              > > to follow the majority. A form of "herd instinct"
              > > or just plain wanting to be accepted, to fit in
              > > and have the freedoms that other people do.
              > > In the past, fitting in meant staying alive! It
              > > didn't matter what you agreed with, so long
              > > as you agreed with those in power. Those in
              > > the majority.
              > >
              > > The Gutenburg Bible was printed in 1455.
              > > The crusading movent ended in 1464:
              > >
              > > "When Constantinople fell in 1453 and Pius II
              > > was unable to initiate a further campaign before
              > > his death in 1464, the crusading movement came
              > > to an end."
              > >
              > > [The Perennial Dictionary of World Religions,
              > > by Keith Crim]
              > >
              > > The birth of Guru Nanak and the founding
              > > of Sikhism reportedly began in 1469:
              > >
              > > Sikhism is the youngest of the World Religions,
              > > barely 500 years old. It was founded by Siri Guru
              > > Nanak Dev Ji in 1469 who laid the basic principles
              > > of Sikhism. It offered the people a simple Sikh
              > > religion teaching "Oneness of God", whose name
              > > is TRUTH. Nine Gurus followed him who all reinforced
              > > and added to what was taught by the first Guru. After
              > > which in 1708, the holy book of the Sikhs, The Siri
              > > GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI was Proclaimed to be the
              > > only Guru by the last Guru, Siri Guru Gobind Singh Ji.
              > > This holy book embodies the philosophy and fundamentals
              > > of Sikhism. It is the only holy book of a major religion
              > > which was written and authenticated by its founders.
              >
              > *** Try this address-
              > http://www.sikh.net/publications/View/roots.htm
              > ***
              >
              > > The only holy book of a major religion
              > > which was written and authenticated by
              > > its founders. That sounds like a first to
              > > me.
              > >
              > > Etznab
              >
            • Elizabeth
              ... Actually one of the easiest ways to control the group, is by claiming the above... but the truth of the matter is, HK was advised by his Lawyers that he
              Message 6 of 18 , Aug 7 6:41 AM
              • 0 Attachment
                <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                >

                > HK's spin and threat is that Anyone Discussing DG
                > or Questioning the validity of anything pertaining
                > to the ECKANKAR Religion indicates a "spiritual
                > immaturity."


                Actually one of the easiest ways to control the group, is by claiming
                the above... but the truth of the matter is, HK was advised by his
                Lawyers that he should be very careful of what eckankrap and Klemp puts
                out there in the eck community concerning DG. And vis a versa, DG is
                restricted on what he can share or say due to certain laws.

                Klemp has found a way to threaten his flock, all the while also
                protecting his rock pile of gold. *Fear* is the ultimate control
                factor; it works in most cases....
              • mishmisha9
                Hi, All! Prometheus wrote: ECKists are discouraged from questioning anything. Questioning EK Dogma and it s validity or the works of Paul Twitchell are a NO
                Message 7 of 18 , Aug 7 9:42 AM
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi, All!

                  Prometheus wrote:
                  "ECKists are discouraged from questioning anything.
                  Questioning EK Dogma and it's validity or the works of
                  Paul Twitchell are a NO NO!"

                  Harold Klemp uses his power of "eck authority" to keep
                  his chelas inline. He uses fear and persecution that because
                  he hold "the rod of eck!" LOL! Those who believe in the eck
                  teachings and the validity of the bogus eck initiations certainly
                  are aware of what is in store for them if they ask the wrong
                  questions or dare to challenge the eck beliefs and eck org,
                  especially Harold Klemp. We all most certainly know what
                  happened to Ford Johnson and Graham Forsyth when
                  Graham's journal was brought to Klemp's attention!!
                  How dare them!! LOL!

                  Below I am reposting a couple of posts--one from A.R.E.
                  that tells what happens to initiations of those who leave
                  eckankar and try to come back. The other is a book review
                  of "Those Wonderful ECK Masters" posted on Amazon.com
                  which tells about Klemp calls chelas "losers" when they
                  complain or question the eck teachings.

                  As Prometheus wrote in his post, chelas will never be "truly
                  free!" Eckankar doesn't produce what it promises--it just
                  suppresses and controls those who are searching for spiritual
                  truths and enlightenment! Eckankar is of the dark ages! LOL!
                  Here are the cross postings as well as a few more comments
                  from me at the end.

                  From A.R.E., Sept. 2005, a poster named Simon reposted this
                  message from HCS, this is what Harold Klemp does to those
                  who question his authority and the eck teachings:

                  Before reading Ford's book, I commented to my wife how it
                  seemed to me that the greater of thrust of the Eck writings
                  had come to be about attaining and retaining membership,
                  and that in addition to that, there seemed to be a pervasive
                  undercurrent of fear being communicated. The latest
                  quarterly publication came in the mail. As I have disengaged
                  from Eckankar, my wife almost immediately recycled it, but
                  chose not to. I found the following interesting. The cover story
                  by Harold discusses how to talk about or share Eckankar. An
                  article that is nearly 2 pages long discusses how one learns to
                  get past their fear or discomfort in regard to talking about
                  Eckankar to others. The Wisdom Notes on the last page talks
                  about 3 different cases having to do with leaving or coming to
                  the Eck teachings. In the Wisdom Note, Harold states the following:
                  "Several years ago, the Kal (negative power) tricked a chela into
                  believing that her Satsang teacher was the next Living ECK
                  Master. Nevertheless, her teacher couldn't have been more
                  wrong in his presumption. His ECK Satsang class largely
                  became his disciples, and at ECK Worldwide Seminars, he and
                  they came to announce his mastership. Most ECKists saw through
                  him at once; yet some didn't." "Naturally, the ringleaders were all
                  suspended from ECKANKAR for an indefinite time. And that's how
                  things stood until recently." "In due time, disappointment with the
                  claims of this 'minimaster' allowed this chela and her husband to
                  see and hear the Light and Sound of God beyond the veil of their
                  illusion. Now they wished to return to ECKANKAR. The husband,
                  who'd not been an ECKist before, started his ECK discourse study
                  as a new member. The wife, however, expected to return as a Fourth
                  Initiate, her former level." "The spiritual question, though, was,
                  what number of people had she misled while a missionary for the
                  Kal? She was partly responsible for all the karma they had created,
                  and were creating."
                  "Furthermore, she bore an ongoing responsibility for the negative
                  deeds of every single one of them as long as they remained outside
                  of ECK." "This meant that she now carried too much karma to qualify
                  for the Fourth Initiation. It was also too much karma for the Third
                  Initiation. It was likewise for the first Initiation. She did qualify as a
                  new ECK member, like her husband, providing she was allowed to
                  return at all." "She'd once made a very wrong spiritual decision. Her
                  problems were all of her own doing."
                  I was wondering if this in part referenced the experiences relating to ?
                  Graham Forsythe as well as Ford. I remember Ford writing about ?
                  wondering how it was that he might have been in error, simply by
                  being honest with himself in regard to his own questions and
                  experiences, as well as those of others. It seems that Harold is
                  suggesting that there can be a grave penalty for not knowing what
                  we do not know, and daring to be honest about it. I'm not sure I
                  would advocate such a path as this to those I love and care about
                  (e.g. my children), where simply being honest with one's self can
                  bring about the worst of circumstances. Better that they never get
                  too close to the terrible fire or Eck? Interestingly, there are two new
                  books for sale by Harold titled "Those Wonderful Eck Masters" and
                  "Truth Has No Secrets".
                  (end of A.R.E. post)


                  Book review posted on Amazon.com :
                  Eckankar's biggest pitch is to prove this spriritual reality to
                  yourself! However, brainwashing along with mental and emotional
                  imbalance can cause delusional perception. These mental
                  constructs produce the desired results (visitation by Eck Masters)
                  and this is what these people want and need in order to alliviate
                  their fears (of death) and give them hope and belief in a religion or
                  Masters that will answer all of their inner questions. Outer and
                  on-going questioning is discouraged in Eckankar because it can't
                  answer the contradictions in its dogma. Here is an excert from
                  the book (pg.211) that shows the unloving author and cult leader
                  Harold Klemp in his true light.

                  "Belief in the Master's ever-present company relies upon an
                  individual's degree of unfoldment. Actual inner experiences help
                  one move to a greater understanding of the ways of divine
                  revelation. But if he chooses to hang on to shopworn karmic debts
                  due to, say, an inability to control some mental passion or habit like
                  anger, then his spiritual momentum stops. It's that simple. Of course,
                  a headstrong follower always tries to fix blame on the Mahanta, the
                  Living Eck Master when his attemps to advance in ECK comes to
                  nothing."

                  "But such an attitude changes nothing. The individual is a loser and
                  will continue to be a loser until he adopts the practices of a winner."

                  "I'm used to such misdirected slings. They go with my position. I
                  realize that at some point an individual will break free of his holding
                  pattern and again soar higher. It's when he's seen that all
                  responsibility for his unfoldment lies with him alone."

                  Here is another Eckankar contradiction! How can an individual Eckist
                  ever break free of the need for their Mahanta (Klemp) when always
                  needing that next initiation. Even the 9th-12th initiates (and former
                  Mahantas) are still under the authority of Klemp!
                  (end of Amazon book review)

                  On another note, I read recent post on A.R.E. in which Doug
                  Marman wrote he hasn't read Harold's book "Those Wonderful
                  ECK Masters" yet. He seems very unfamiliar with this book
                  written in 2005, yet Marman has written another book
                  himself recently espousing the truth--the whole truth about
                  eckankar! Now, it puzzles me that Doug appears uninterested
                  in what Harold Klemp is writing, especially the book "Those
                  Wonderful ECK Masters." Since Klemp has gone to great lengths
                  to prove the validity of these eck masters, wouldn't Marman find
                  Klemp's book important to what he himself has written???
                  Wouldn't excerpts from HK's book depict the whole truth with a
                  current context? Or does the whole truth about eckankar as
                  Marman sees it only lie in its past? It seems to me that there
                  is a large group of Twitchell eckists who are disregarding and
                  ignoring Klemp's dogma! This has to be a bigger headache
                  for Klemp and the org than we detractors. LOL!

                  Mish


                  ##################################################
                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                  "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello All,
                  > I enjoyed this post. Yes, ECKists are discouraged
                  > from questioning anything. Questioning EK Dogma
                  > and it's validity or the works of Paul Twitchell are
                  > a NO NO! Also, ECKists are Not EVEN Permitted to
                  > say Darwin Gross' name! And DG WAS the 972nd
                  > LEM/Mahanta! Thus, EKists are certainly NOT
                  > PERMITTED to discuss anything pertaining to
                  > or events prior to DG's expulsion (excommunication)!
                  >
                  > HK's spin and threat is that Anyone Discussing DG
                  > or Questioning the validity of anything pertaining
                  > to the ECKANKAR Religion indicates a "spiritual
                  > immaturity." And, therefore, when a Chela is "spiritually
                  > immature" they Are Not Grounded In The ECK Works
                  > and, thus, Will Not (normally) be allowed to teach/
                  > facilitate Book Discussions, or Satsang Classes, etc.
                  > These Chelas, too, Will Not (normally) be given "settler"
                  > or "explorer" positions of Authority, and their Initiations
                  > Will Be Delayed or frozen by the ESC and/or RESA. This
                  > is a form of Black Listing and Shunning that all religions
                  > practice when followers question the "Authority" of their
                  > Religious Leaders. Blind faith and an imagination of heaven,
                  > angels, masters, prophets, etc. works well for all religions!
                  >
                  > Klemp's re-editing, eliminating, and cover-up of Twitchell's
                  > sources, and works is simple damage control. This cleansing
                  > has eliminated many of the blatant contradictions within the
                  > (revised) Dogma. However, Klemp's Lutheran roots has also
                  > given ECKANKAR a more intolerant Christian influence.
                  >
                  > In ECKANKAR there are two goals that are promoted
                  > over all others - SELF-MASTERY and SPIRITUAL FREEDOM
                  > IN THIS LIFETIME.
                  >
                  > However, these two are impossible to achieve due to
                  > the way in which the EK INITIATIONS are designed. Only
                  > the "MALE" LEM/Mahanta can achieve this Self-Mastery
                  > and Spiritual Freedom through Initiation! Otherwise the
                  > highest EK initiation possible (while in a physical body)
                  > is the 9th. And, only a handful of Chelas become 8th
                  > and 9th Initiates!
                  >
                  > The truth is that ECKANKAR practically forces followers to
                  > jump through hoops to become leaders via trainings,
                  > positions, etc. in order for them to acquire initiations.
                  > And, these initiations are to lead to and/or indicate higher
                  > consciousness and spirituality. Of course, Trained Leaders
                  > also bring in more followers and revenue ($$$). It's really
                  > just a sham because the longer one remains in ECKANKAR
                  > and the higher the initiation rank merely indicates the
                  > LACK of Spiritual Freedom and Self-Mastery and Individuality
                  > (uniqueness of Soul) that these Follower/Leaders have!
                  > Their length of Membership and Rank shows how deluded,
                  > egotistical, and power hungry they have become.
                  >
                  > Thus, ECKANKAR wants, needs, and forces Chelas to conform,
                  > although, this religion was/is proclaimed to be an Individual
                  > Path that leads to greater Freedom. However, the longer one
                  > stays in ECKANKAR the more one's original focus is lost, and
                  > the more one loses their ability to discern truth from fiction.
                  > Critical thinking, logic, common sense, and rational thought
                  > are replaced by blind faith, misplaced trust, and Dogmatic
                  > imagination. In truth ALL ECKists are trained to become
                  > FOLLOWERS of their earthly leader Klemp (the LEM/Mahanta).
                  > NEVER will ECKists be permitted to leave the influence of the
                  > Mahanta even in some "Future" of their imagined Higher Inner
                  > Planes. ECKANKAR promotes cycles of of redundant and limited
                  > imagings with a lot of promises - prophets - angel/masters
                  > to keep people distracted from the Truth and of their own
                  > abilities as Free Souls - including their own Self-Mastery
                  > without the need for a "Religious/Spiritual Leader" stealing
                  > their money, their Reality, and original goals as Seekers.
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Comments to the posts by Mish and Liz.
                  > >
                  > > Years ago people were not able to question
                  > > without the fear of being excommunicated, or
                  > > even worse. People who went about translating
                  > > the Bible into common language so that more
                  > > people could read it besides the clergy alone,
                  > > what do you think happened to them?
                  > >
                  > > Think about it this way, in a sense it was like
                  > > letting people know what the clergy knew, and
                  > > giving everybody the right to look at the records
                  > > that their religion was based on.
                  > >
                  > > At first it wasn't popular and people were
                  > > burned at the stake for translating the Bible
                  > > into the common language. Even for having
                  > > a Bible in their possession!
                  > >
                  > > Eventually word got out and the printing
                  > > press came along so that people were able
                  > > to read the Bible for themselves.
                  > >
                  > > But you know what? With all of the sects
                  > > and isms since that time, people continue
                  > > to excommunicate or shun others who ask
                  > > the wrong questions. This is most peculiar
                  > > if you ask me. Not that everybody is doing
                  > > this kind of thing to everybody else, but the
                  > > fear to ask questions would probably not be
                  > > so powerful if it were not reinforced by all of
                  > > the people who are afraid to do exactly that.
                  > >
                  > > Peer pressure is a strong influence, and
                  > > being the minority often means being at the
                  > > mercy of the majority. It doesn't matter if
                  > > the majority is right or wrong, but it comes
                  > > down to numbers amounting to power. Even
                  > > monetary wealth where the rich - those with
                  > > the most cash - win most of the government.
                  > >
                  > > So what I'm alluding to is that people tend
                  > > to follow the majority. A form of "herd instinct"
                  > > or just plain wanting to be accepted, to fit in
                  > > and have the freedoms that other people do.
                  > > In the past, fitting in meant staying alive! It
                  > > didn't matter what you agreed with, so long
                  > > as you agreed with those in power. Those in
                  > > the majority.
                  > >
                  > > The Gutenburg Bible was printed in 1455.
                  > > The crusading movent ended in 1464:
                  > >
                  > > "When Constantinople fell in 1453 and Pius II
                  > > was unable to initiate a further campaign before
                  > > his death in 1464, the crusading movement came
                  > > to an end."
                  > >
                  > > [The Perennial Dictionary of World Religions,
                  > > by Keith Crim]
                  > >
                  > > The birth of Guru Nanak and the founding
                  > > of Sikhism reportedly began in 1469:
                  > >
                  > > Sikhism is the youngest of the World Religions,
                  > > barely 500 years old. It was founded by Siri Guru
                  > > Nanak Dev Ji in 1469 who laid the basic principles
                  > > of Sikhism. It offered the people a simple Sikh
                  > > religion teaching "Oneness of God", whose name
                  > > is TRUTH. Nine Gurus followed him who all reinforced
                  > > and added to what was taught by the first Guru. After
                  > > which in 1708, the holy book of the Sikhs, The Siri
                  > > GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI was Proclaimed to be the
                  > > only Guru by the last Guru, Siri Guru Gobind Singh Ji.
                  > > This holy book embodies the philosophy and fundamentals
                  > > of Sikhism. It is the only holy book of a major religion
                  > > which was written and authenticated by its founders.
                  >
                  > *** Try this address-
                  > http://www.sikh.net/publications/View/roots.htm
                  > ***
                  >
                  > > The only holy book of a major religion
                  > > which was written and authenticated by
                  > > its founders. That sounds like a first to
                  > > me.
                  > >
                  > > Etznab
                  >
                • prometheus_973
                  Yes, it is strange that Marman tends to dwell in the past with a Twitchell/Radhasoami view of ECKANKAR versus the current/sanitized and Christian-like view of
                  Message 8 of 18 , Aug 7 12:07 PM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Yes, it is strange that Marman tends to dwell in the past
                    with a Twitchell/Radhasoami view of ECKANKAR versus
                    the current/sanitized and Christian-like view of Klemp's.

                    However, on Ford's The Truth-Seeker site Marman replies
                    to Nacal [ME] on 2/8/2004 by making some comments
                    that he NOW probably wishes he hadn't made.

                    http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.asp

                    *On Myth-

                    Nacal: "Is what Harold teaches (Eckankar) a Myth?
                    Since I brought the subject up can you tell me if
                    the Holocaust was a Myth or Not?"

                    Doug: "... Yes, I would say a lot of what is taught
                    about Eckankar is a Myth. Yes, I think that a lot of
                    what people think about the Holocaust is made up
                    of Myth as well... History is largely made up of Myth."

                    So, will Marman, in his new book, tell the "Whole
                    Truth" about the MYTH of ECKANKAR as well? Probably
                    Not!

                    *On Twitchell's Birth Year and Mysterious Creations-

                    Doug: "Obviously we now know where he came from
                    and was born (Paducah, Kentucky)... We also know
                    when he was born (1909)... I think he liked the idea
                    that his past was Mysterious, and he helped to Create
                    this Mysterious Past."

                    Will Doug share this too in his new book? How can DM's
                    Whole Truth about ECKANKAR Not Show that Twitchell
                    Created his own Mysterious Past as Doug claims? Also,
                    the 1909 Birth Year (Doug gives) for PT means that at
                    age 27 the year was 1936. Therefore when Klemp states
                    (on Eckankar.org) that Twitch was "exaggerating" and
                    "twisting facts" at age 27 to get into Who's Who in Kentucky
                    and that PT had never traveled far from home then - How
                    could PT have met Sudar Singh on his "first" trip to India
                    in 1935?!

                    *Rebazar Tarzs-

                    Nacal is refering to a quote about RT: 'But it is a fact that
                    his Master Rebazar Tarzs, an ancient Tibetan lama, who
                    appears to be in his early forties, was a young man when
                    Columbus discovered America.'

                    "Now, was that really a 'fact,' or a delusional belief, or a
                    deliberate lie? Or, is it that," 'There is a need of the people
                    to believe in the Magic of a Saviour, and Sri Paul Twitchell
                    knows this and acts out the part.' [quote from Difficulties
                    Of Becoming The LEM]

                    Doug: "It certainly is No Fact, since there are No Records
                    Nor Anything Else To Prove That REBAZAR TARZS Even
                    Exists, Never Mind How Old He Really Is. However, there
                    is no proof that it is a lie either. It certainly sounds far-
                    fetched."

                    Marman seems to cast some doubt on the existance of
                    Rebazar. Apparently he's never had a personal experience
                    or visitation to erase these doubts. Maybe he needs to use
                    his Imagination in order to Believe like most other chelas do!
                    I wonder what DM has to say about RT, in his new book, that
                    would contradict the doubts he casts in this 2004 post on TS?

                    * Marman on EK Initiations-

                    Nacal: "Are the Initiations in Eckankar Valid as a Means to
                    Greater Spiritual Growth over those who are Non-ECKists?
                    Or, is this a Myth too?"

                    Doug: "I think the initiations are a mixed bag... But they have
                    become filled with Myths as well. I can tell you that Self-
                    Realization is rare, H.I. or not. The Initiation Level Doesn't
                    Prove Anything... I dont't think Anyone should be Judging
                    another person's Worth or Truth by what Initiation Level
                    They Are At. INCLUDING THE MASTER."

                    Thus, Doug's opinion is that "Self-Realization is rare, H.I.
                    or not" and "initiation level doesn't prove anything" and
                    that NO ONE should be "judging another person's worth or
                    truth" as to their "initiation level... including the Master" (HK).

                    Will these opinions, also, be reflected in Doug's new book?
                    Hmmmmm I sort of doubt it!

                    Prometheus


                    Mish wrote:
                    > On another note, I read recent post on A.R.E. in which Doug
                    > Marman wrote he hasn't read Harold's book "Those Wonderful
                    > ECK Masters" yet. He seems very unfamiliar with this book
                    > written in 2005, yet Marman has written another book
                    > himself recently espousing the truth--the whole truth about
                    > eckankar! Now, it puzzles me that Doug appears uninterested
                    > in what Harold Klemp is writing, especially the book "Those
                    > Wonderful ECK Masters." Since Klemp has gone to great lengths
                    > to prove the validity of these eck masters, wouldn't Marman find
                    > Klemp's book important to what he himself has written???
                    > Wouldn't excerpts from HK's book depict the whole truth with a
                    > current context? Or does the whole truth about eckankar as
                    > Marman sees it only lie in its past? It seems to me that there
                    > is a large group of Twitchell eckists who are disregarding and
                    > ignoring Klemp's dogma! This has to be a bigger headache
                    > for Klemp and the org than we detractors. LOL!
                    >
                    > Mish
                    >
                    >
                    > ##################################################
                    > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                    > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hello All,
                    > > I enjoyed this post. Yes, ECKists are discouraged
                    > > from questioning anything. Questioning EK Dogma
                    > > and it's validity or the works of Paul Twitchell are
                    > > a NO NO! Also, ECKists are Not EVEN Permitted to
                    > > say Darwin Gross' name! And DG WAS the 972nd
                    > > LEM/Mahanta! Thus, EKists are certainly NOT
                    > > PERMITTED to discuss anything pertaining to
                    > > or events prior to DG's expulsion (excommunication)!
                    > >
                    > > HK's spin and threat is that Anyone Discussing DG
                    > > or Questioning the validity of anything pertaining
                    > > to the ECKANKAR Religion indicates a "spiritual
                    > > immaturity." And, therefore, when a Chela is "spiritually
                    > > immature" they Are Not Grounded In The ECK Works
                    > > and, thus, Will Not (normally) be allowed to teach/
                    > > facilitate Book Discussions, or Satsang Classes, etc.
                    > > These Chelas, too, Will Not (normally) be given "settler"
                    > > or "explorer" positions of Authority, and their Initiations
                    > > Will Be Delayed or frozen by the ESC and/or RESA. This
                    > > is a form of Black Listing and Shunning that all religions
                    > > practice when followers question the "Authority" of their
                    > > Religious Leaders. Blind faith and an imagination of heaven,
                    > > angels, masters, prophets, etc. works well for all religions!
                    > >
                    > > Klemp's re-editing, eliminating, and cover-up of Twitchell's
                    > > sources, and works is simple damage control. This cleansing
                    > > has eliminated many of the blatant contradictions within the
                    > > (revised) Dogma. However, Klemp's Lutheran roots has also
                    > > given ECKANKAR a more intolerant Christian influence.
                    > >
                    > > In ECKANKAR there are two goals that are promoted
                    > > over all others - SELF-MASTERY and SPIRITUAL FREEDOM
                    > > IN THIS LIFETIME.
                    > >
                    > > However, these two are impossible to achieve due to
                    > > the way in which the EK INITIATIONS are designed. Only
                    > > the "MALE" LEM/Mahanta can achieve this Self-Mastery
                    > > and Spiritual Freedom through Initiation! Otherwise the
                    > > highest EK initiation possible (while in a physical body)
                    > > is the 9th. And, only a handful of Chelas become 8th
                    > > and 9th Initiates!
                    > >
                    > > The truth is that ECKANKAR practically forces followers to
                    > > jump through hoops to become leaders via trainings,
                    > > positions, etc. in order for them to acquire initiations.
                    > > And, these initiations are to lead to and/or indicate higher
                    > > consciousness and spirituality. Of course, Trained Leaders
                    > > also bring in more followers and revenue ($$$). It's really
                    > > just a sham because the longer one remains in ECKANKAR
                    > > and the higher the initiation rank merely indicates the
                    > > LACK of Spiritual Freedom and Self-Mastery and Individuality
                    > > (uniqueness of Soul) that these Follower/Leaders have!
                    > > Their length of Membership and Rank shows how deluded,
                    > > egotistical, and power hungry they have become.
                    > >
                    > > Thus, ECKANKAR wants, needs, and forces Chelas to conform,
                    > > although, this religion was/is proclaimed to be an Individual
                    > > Path that leads to greater Freedom. However, the longer one
                    > > stays in ECKANKAR the more one's original focus is lost, and
                    > > the more one loses their ability to discern truth from fiction.
                    > > Critical thinking, logic, common sense, and rational thought
                    > > are replaced by blind faith, misplaced trust, and Dogmatic
                    > > imagination. In truth ALL ECKists are trained to become
                    > > FOLLOWERS of their earthly leader Klemp (the LEM/Mahanta).
                    > > NEVER will ECKists be permitted to leave the influence of the
                    > > Mahanta even in some "Future" of their imagined Higher Inner
                    > > Planes. ECKANKAR promotes cycles of of redundant and limited
                    > > imagings with a lot of promises - prophets - angel/masters
                    > > to keep people distracted from the Truth and of their own
                    > > abilities as Free Souls - including their own Self-Mastery
                    > > without the need for a "Religious/Spiritual Leader" stealing
                    > > their money, their Reality, and original goals as Seekers.
                    > >
                    > > Prometheus
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Comments to the posts by Mish and Liz.
                    > > >
                    > > > Years ago people were not able to question
                    > > > without the fear of being excommunicated, or
                    > > > even worse. People who went about translating
                    > > > the Bible into common language so that more
                    > > > people could read it besides the clergy alone,
                    > > > what do you think happened to them?
                    > > >
                    > > > Think about it this way, in a sense it was like
                    > > > letting people know what the clergy knew, and
                    > > > giving everybody the right to look at the records
                    > > > that their religion was based on.
                    > > >
                    > > > At first it wasn't popular and people were
                    > > > burned at the stake for translating the Bible
                    > > > into the common language. Even for having
                    > > > a Bible in their possession!
                    > > >
                    > > > Eventually word got out and the printing
                    > > > press came along so that people were able
                    > > > to read the Bible for themselves.
                    > > >
                    > > > But you know what? With all of the sects
                    > > > and isms since that time, people continue
                    > > > to excommunicate or shun others who ask
                    > > > the wrong questions. This is most peculiar
                    > > > if you ask me. Not that everybody is doing
                    > > > this kind of thing to everybody else, but the
                    > > > fear to ask questions would probably not be
                    > > > so powerful if it were not reinforced by all of
                    > > > the people who are afraid to do exactly that.
                    > > >
                    > > > Peer pressure is a strong influence, and
                    > > > being the minority often means being at the
                    > > > mercy of the majority. It doesn't matter if
                    > > > the majority is right or wrong, but it comes
                    > > > down to numbers amounting to power. Even
                    > > > monetary wealth where the rich - those with
                    > > > the most cash - win most of the government.
                    > > >
                    > > > So what I'm alluding to is that people tend
                    > > > to follow the majority. A form of "herd instinct"
                    > > > or just plain wanting to be accepted, to fit in
                    > > > and have the freedoms that other people do.
                    > > > In the past, fitting in meant staying alive! It
                    > > > didn't matter what you agreed with, so long
                    > > > as you agreed with those in power. Those in
                    > > > the majority.
                    > > >
                    > > > The Gutenburg Bible was printed in 1455.
                    > > > The crusading movent ended in 1464:
                    > > >
                    > > > "When Constantinople fell in 1453 and Pius II
                    > > > was unable to initiate a further campaign before
                    > > > his death in 1464, the crusading movement came
                    > > > to an end."
                    > > >
                    > > > [The Perennial Dictionary of World Religions,
                    > > > by Keith Crim]
                    > > >
                    > > > The birth of Guru Nanak and the founding
                    > > > of Sikhism reportedly began in 1469:
                    > > >
                    > > > Sikhism is the youngest of the World Religions,
                    > > > barely 500 years old. It was founded by Siri Guru
                    > > > Nanak Dev Ji in 1469 who laid the basic principles
                    > > > of Sikhism. It offered the people a simple Sikh
                    > > > religion teaching "Oneness of God", whose name
                    > > > is TRUTH. Nine Gurus followed him who all reinforced
                    > > > and added to what was taught by the first Guru. After
                    > > > which in 1708, the holy book of the Sikhs, The Siri
                    > > > GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI was Proclaimed to be the
                    > > > only Guru by the last Guru, Siri Guru Gobind Singh Ji.
                    > > > This holy book embodies the philosophy and fundamentals
                    > > > of Sikhism. It is the only holy book of a major religion
                    > > > which was written and authenticated by its founders.
                    > >
                    > > *** Try this address-
                    > > http://www.sikh.net/publications/View/roots.htm
                    > > ***
                    > >
                    > > > The only holy book of a major religion
                    > > > which was written and authenticated by
                    > > > its founders. That sounds like a first to
                    > > > me.
                    > > >
                    > > > Etznab
                    > >
                    >
                  • prometheus_973
                    Hi Liz, The 972nd LEM/Mahanta (Gross) was not always a Black Magician was he? When does Klemp claim DG fell from Grace or went to the Dark Side as a KAL
                    Message 9 of 18 , Aug 7 3:34 PM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hi Liz,
                      The 972nd LEM/Mahanta (Gross) was not always
                      a "Black Magician" was he? When does Klemp claim
                      DG fell from Grace or went to the Dark Side as a
                      KAL agent?

                      Was a LEM (HK) qualified to judge a Mahanta
                      (DG)? Appearances can be deceiving in the worlds
                      of Maya.

                      Was Gross a Black Magician when he handed Klemp
                      the Rod of ECK Power? It seems that would that be
                      impossible according to ECK Dogma! So, when did Gross
                      begin to show negative traits in the running of ECKANKAR
                      and in his decision making? Who judged him, the Board
                      and Klemp? How could they know what the Mahanta (DG),
                      the special incarnation of Sugmad, knew?

                      On the other hand... Klemp did say he met twice with DG
                      in the SOUND PROOF DARK ROOM where Klemp worked
                      daily at the ESC. [Soul Travelers of the Far Country, CH. 7]

                      How far back (in Darwin's reign as LEM/Mahanta) do
                      the inapproiate salaries and expenditures go? Is spending
                      money, as though it has no value, WORSE than hoarding it
                      or using it to build monuments (buildings)?

                      In other words- was Darwin an agent for the KAL when
                      he gave out ECK Initiations to all chelas including HK and
                      when he made Klemp the LEM, or WHEN afterwards?

                      ECKists have to believe that Darwin ONLY turned to the
                      Kal AFTER he handed Klemp the Rod of Power on Oct.,
                      22, 1981. Therefore, ANYTHING and EVERYTHING that
                      DG did BEFORE this date (10/22/1981) must have been
                      in harmony of the Spiritual Laws of ECK and, therefore,
                      with the approval of the SUGMAD, The Nine Silent Ones,
                      and the Order of Vairagi ECK Masters. Although, the Order
                      the Vairagi of ECK Masters work UNDER/FOR the LEM/Mahanta
                      according to Klemp's current views.

                      Whether the Lower Plane ECKANKAR Board of Trustees
                      (under KAL's rule) approved of Gross' actions or not is a
                      moot point in the Higher Spiritual Worlds of ECK and yet
                      these are the physical laws and means that Klemp used to
                      expel an ECK Master... Gross.

                      Anyway, I doubt that Klemp is forbidden by law or settlement
                      to say anything negative about Gross after re-reading the
                      1983 H.I. Meeting comments that Klemp makes involving DG.
                      These comments by Klemp are both negative and misleading.

                      Don't ECKists wonder what the 972nd LEM/Mahanta had
                      to say when he was still an Enlightened Being and Vairagi
                      Master? What was DG's perspective on various topics when
                      Klemp was his Chela and Apprendice? Where is this ECK History?
                      Why has Klemp destroyed these teachings or forbids that it
                      is read and shared within Satsangs, etc.? WHY? Is it fear?
                      It's a Fear of Truth and a control tactic that keeps HK from
                      showing the other-side-of-the-coin to chelas. Why can't HK
                      do something Positive regarding DG instead of pretending
                      it never happened. Why not share the good to balance out
                      the bad that has been said? Take the Higher Road Harry!
                      I guess that won't happen will it... just keep ignoring it like
                      it never happened right!

                      Is it the Fear of the teachings and words of another "Living"
                      ECK Master (before his fall) to be shared when other Masters'
                      words, supposedly, are shared? It really doesn't make sense
                      if Eckankar is all that it claims as the "highest and most direct
                      path" and spiritual teaching. ECkists should be above the
                      negative egotistic trappings of the physical world and print
                      DG's EK Spiritual Works/Articles prior to 10/22/1981.

                      Afterall, any article written by DG in an ECK publication is
                      still the property of ECKANKAR.

                      Prometheus


                      Prometheus wrote:

                      HK's spin and threat is that Anyone Discussing DG
                      or Questioning the validity of anything pertaining
                      to the ECKANKAR Religion indicates a "spiritual
                      immaturity."

                      Liz wrote:
                      Actually one of the easiest ways to control the group, is by claiming
                      the above... but the truth of the matter is, HK was advised by his
                      Lawyers that he should be very careful of what eckankrap and Klemp puts
                      out there in the eck community concerning DG. And vis a versa, DG is
                      restricted on what he can share or say due to certain laws.
                      >
                      Klemp has found a way to threaten his flock, all the while also
                      protecting his rock pile of gold. *Fear* is the ultimate control
                      factor; it works in most cases....
                    • prometheus_973
                      Hi Steve, Yes, those ECK initiations are spiritually bogus. This is why EK chelas have to rationalize, imagine, and pretend. At first one will blame oneself
                      Message 10 of 18 , Aug 7 4:26 PM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi Steve,
                        Yes, those ECK initiations are spiritually bogus.
                        This is why EK chelas have to rationalize, imagine,
                        and pretend. At first one will blame oneself and
                        think it is them. Guilt and shame and self doubts
                        are what seem to make sense when initiations
                        or inner experiences don't come through. Afterall,
                        Klemp never takes responsibility for the bad or for
                        chelas Not having inner experiences or not getting
                        an initiation, but HK will always take credit for the
                        "good" that normally befalls chelas or anyone for
                        that matter! Eventually, long-time chelas will learn
                        to rationalize more and more in order to justify their
                        positions and opinions. These H.I.s lose their perspective
                        as they become more and more deluded and confined
                        to the limits of EK Dogma. They have given up looking
                        for Truth because they have been misdirected, lied to,
                        and confused for so long that they now just look for
                        simple answers in Klemp's simple-minded words and
                        stories. In other words... they have given up, but can't
                        bring themselves to leave ECKANKAR. They have become
                        attached to their "Positions" and "Initiation Rank." They
                        NEED the earthly admiration and friendships they have
                        invested in and cultivated over the years. I don't blame
                        them. Change, Individual Spiritual Freedom, and Self-Mastery
                        is a difficult choice when it comes to losing friendships
                        and causing disharmony within a family. However, one
                        cannot Continue to advance Spiritually within the confines
                        of being a Religious Follower... regardless of the Religion!


                        BTW- DOUG MARMAN-A FEW RESPONSES-TS 2/8/2004
                        is on the LINKS Page.

                        Prometheus


                        Steve wrote:

                        > Good Post! and right on the money!
                        > It is my belief that all initiations in eck are bogus with nothing
                        > to back them up. Does anyone anywhere really get an initiation into
                        > the spiritual worlds?
                        > Steve
                        >
                        prometheus wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Hello All,
                        > > I enjoyed this post. Yes, ECKists are discouraged
                        > > from questioning anything. Questioning EK Dogma
                        > > and it's validity or the works of Paul Twitchell are
                        > > a NO NO! Also, ECKists are Not EVEN Permitted to
                        > > say Darwin Gross' name! And DG WAS the 972nd
                        > > LEM/Mahanta! Thus, EKists are certainly NOT
                        > > PERMITTED to discuss anything pertaining to
                        > > or events prior to DG's expulsion (excommunication)!
                        > >
                        > > HK's spin and threat is that Anyone Discussing DG
                        > > or Questioning the validity of anything pertaining
                        > > to the ECKANKAR Religion indicates a "spiritual
                        > > immaturity." And, therefore, when a Chela is "spiritually
                        > > immature" they Are Not Grounded In The ECK Works
                        > > and, thus, Will Not (normally) be allowed to teach/
                        > > facilitate Book Discussions, or Satsang Classes, etc.
                        > > These Chelas, too, Will Not (normally) be given "settler"
                        > > or "explorer" positions of Authority, and their Initiations
                        > > Will Be Delayed or frozen by the ESC and/or RESA. This
                        > > is a form of Black Listing and Shunning that all religions
                        > > practice when followers question the "Authority" of their
                        > > Religious Leaders. Blind faith and an imagination of heaven,
                        > > angels, masters, prophets, etc. works well for all religions!
                        > >
                        > > Klemp's re-editing, eliminating, and cover-up of Twitchell's
                        > > sources, and works is simple damage control. This cleansing
                        > > has eliminated many of the blatant contradictions within the
                        > > (revised) Dogma. However, Klemp's Lutheran roots has also
                        > > given ECKANKAR a more intolerant Christian influence.
                        > >
                        > > In ECKANKAR there are two goals that are promoted
                        > > over all others - SELF-MASTERY and SPIRITUAL FREEDOM
                        > > IN THIS LIFETIME.
                        > >
                        > > However, these two are impossible to achieve due to
                        > > the way in which the EK INITIATIONS are designed. Only
                        > > the "MALE" LEM/Mahanta can achieve this Self-Mastery
                        > > and Spiritual Freedom through Initiation! Otherwise the
                        > > highest EK initiation possible (while in a physical body)
                        > > is the 9th. And, only a handful of Chelas become 8th
                        > > and 9th Initiates!
                        > >
                        > > The truth is that ECKANKAR practically forces followers to
                        > > jump through hoops to become leaders via trainings,
                        > > positions, etc. in order for them to acquire initiations.
                        > > And, these initiations are to lead to and/or indicate higher
                        > > consciousness and spirituality. Of course, Trained Leaders
                        > > also bring in more followers and revenue ($$$). It's really
                        > > just a sham because the longer one remains in ECKANKAR
                        > > and the higher the initiation rank merely indicates the
                        > > LACK of Spiritual Freedom and Self-Mastery and Individuality
                        > > (uniqueness of Soul) that these Follower/Leaders have!
                        > > Their length of Membership and Rank shows how deluded,
                        > > egotistical, and power hungry they have become.
                        > >
                        > > Thus, ECKANKAR wants, needs, and forces Chelas to conform,
                        > > although, this religion was/is proclaimed to be an Individual
                        > > Path that leads to greater Freedom. However, the longer one
                        > > stays in ECKANKAR the more one's original focus is lost, and
                        > > the more one loses their ability to discern truth from fiction.
                        > > Critical thinking, logic, common sense, and rational thought
                        > > are replaced by blind faith, misplaced trust, and Dogmatic
                        > > imagination. In truth ALL ECKists are trained to become
                        > > FOLLOWERS of their earthly leader Klemp (the LEM/Mahanta).
                        > > NEVER will ECKists be permitted to leave the influence of the
                        > > Mahanta even in some "Future" of their imagined Higher Inner
                        > > Planes. ECKANKAR promotes cycles of of redundant and limited
                        > > imagings with a lot of promises - prophets - angel/masters
                        > > to keep people distracted from the Truth and of their own
                        > > abilities as Free Souls - including their own Self-Mastery
                        > > without the need for a "Religious/Spiritual Leader" stealing
                        > > their money, their Reality, and original goals as Seekers.
                        > >
                        > > Prometheus
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Comments to the posts by Mish and Liz.
                        > > >
                        > > > Years ago people were not able to question
                        > > > without the fear of being excommunicated, or
                        > > > even worse. People who went about translating
                        > > > the Bible into common language so that more
                        > > > people could read it besides the clergy alone,
                        > > > what do you think happened to them?
                        > > >
                        > > > Think about it this way, in a sense it was like
                        > > > letting people know what the clergy knew, and
                        > > > giving everybody the right to look at the records
                        > > > that their religion was based on.
                        > > >
                        > > > At first it wasn't popular and people were
                        > > > burned at the stake for translating the Bible
                        > > > into the common language. Even for having
                        > > > a Bible in their possession!
                        > > >
                        > > > Eventually word got out and the printing
                        > > > press came along so that people were able
                        > > > to read the Bible for themselves.
                        > > >
                        > > > But you know what? With all of the sects
                        > > > and isms since that time, people continue
                        > > > to excommunicate or shun others who ask
                        > > > the wrong questions. This is most peculiar
                        > > > if you ask me. Not that everybody is doing
                        > > > this kind of thing to everybody else, but the
                        > > > fear to ask questions would probably not be
                        > > > so powerful if it were not reinforced by all of
                        > > > the people who are afraid to do exactly that.
                        > > >
                        > > > Peer pressure is a strong influence, and
                        > > > being the minority often means being at the
                        > > > mercy of the majority. It doesn't matter if
                        > > > the majority is right or wrong, but it comes
                        > > > down to numbers amounting to power. Even
                        > > > monetary wealth where the rich - those with
                        > > > the most cash - win most of the government.
                        > > >
                        > > > So what I'm alluding to is that people tend
                        > > > to follow the majority. A form of "herd instinct"
                        > > > or just plain wanting to be accepted, to fit in
                        > > > and have the freedoms that other people do.
                        > > > In the past, fitting in meant staying alive! It
                        > > > didn't matter what you agreed with, so long
                        > > > as you agreed with those in power. Those in
                        > > > the majority.
                        > > >
                        > > > The Gutenburg Bible was printed in 1455.
                        > > > The crusading movent ended in 1464:
                        > > >
                        > > > "When Constantinople fell in 1453 and Pius II
                        > > > was unable to initiate a further campaign before
                        > > > his death in 1464, the crusading movement came
                        > > > to an end."
                        > > >
                        > > > [The Perennial Dictionary of World Religions,
                        > > > by Keith Crim]
                        > > >
                        > > > The birth of Guru Nanak and the founding
                        > > > of Sikhism reportedly began in 1469:
                        > > >
                        > > > Sikhism is the youngest of the World Religions,
                        > > > barely 500 years old. It was founded by Siri Guru
                        > > > Nanak Dev Ji in 1469 who laid the basic principles
                        > > > of Sikhism. It offered the people a simple Sikh
                        > > > religion teaching "Oneness of God", whose name
                        > > > is TRUTH. Nine Gurus followed him who all reinforced
                        > > > and added to what was taught by the first Guru. After
                        > > > which in 1708, the holy book of the Sikhs, The Siri
                        > > > GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI was Proclaimed to be the
                        > > > only Guru by the last Guru, Siri Guru Gobind Singh Ji.
                        > > > This holy book embodies the philosophy and fundamentals
                        > > > of Sikhism. It is the only holy book of a major religion
                        > > > which was written and authenticated by its founders.
                        > >
                        > > *** Try this address-
                        > > http://www.sikh.net/publications/View/roots.htm
                        > > ***
                        > >
                        > > > The only holy book of a major religion
                        > > > which was written and authenticated by
                        > > > its founders. That sounds like a first to
                        > > > me.
                        > > >
                        > > > Etznab
                        > >
                        >
                      • Elizabeth
                        Hey Prometheus, guess I should explain my thoughts further on this topic? Klemp and Company were in fact counseled on what should and should not be shared
                        Message 11 of 18 , Aug 8 6:35 AM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hey Prometheus, guess I should explain my thoughts further on this topic?
                           
                          Klemp and Company were in fact counseled on what should and should not be shared publicly.  They (he) was also advised on what to remove from the *history* of eckankar, pertaining to PT and DG.  Buying up old material so the new members won't have access, warning members to stay off the computer...  All part of keeping their membership in the dark.  Some listen, some don't.  But there will always be the gullable willing to put on those rose colored glasses and develop tunnel vision.        
                           
                          So how does a god man down play or avoid having to deal with *issues*?    The org pays these bottom duelers (eck lawyers) big money to keep them out of trouble!  Did someone advise klemp in 1983, I give up!  But I do know back in the day, we were warned not to keep any of DG's material, burn it all....  Then warning of what would happen if the membership didn't comply, as you mentioned how the org put *fear* into the membership.  "spiritual immaturity" .    And that lam excuse that Klemp is of a higher consciousness than the godman that invented the path...  Another example of why we shouldn't hang on to old PT material!   Not sure what klemp will pull out of his A** in future years; maybe PT will be in the back ground like those FLEMs?    Hey what's the story on the next FLEM announcement?  Oct is coming up real soon.....        
                           
                          And what about when he is too darn sick to show up at all....  Or god forbid, what if he kicks the bucket?  Will they put a talking head up on a big screen at the seminars and claim klemp is alive and well, use a curtain to cover up the controls going on behind the scenes?  LOL  now that I know the truth behind the lies, it will be very entertaining when they end up having to announce a new LEM.  Who is willing to carry on the BS / Rod?  Maybe the so called LEM is training isn't ready because, well he just isn't willing to take on the burden, or maybe....   There isn't anyone in line, and klemp would like to go crawl under a rock somewhere and disappear?  Is the org / business willable?  
                           
                            
                          Conspiracy...  To cover up the dirty little secrets of the org.  ;-)  Klemp isn't smart enough to handle this without lawyers.  Though every time he opens his mouth he still looks stupid!  Lawyers aren't paid to increase the IQ of a godman... Shouldn't he already be at a level far more superior than the population of the entire universe!  Wonder what initiation level these lawyers are at, to be able to have some control over how the godman handles his org / business?   
                           
                           
                           
                          Liz  
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                          Prometheus wrote:
                           
                          Anyway, I doubt that Klemp is forbidden by law or settlement
                          to say anything negative about Gross after re-reading the
                          1983 H.I. Meeting comments that Klemp makes involving DG.
                          These comments by Klemp are both negative and misleading.
                           
                          Prometheus wrote:
                           
                          HK's spin and threat is that Anyone Discussing DG
                          or Questioning the validity of anything pertaining
                          to the ECKANKAR Religion indicates a "spiritual
                          immaturity."
                           
                          Liz wrote:
                          Actually one of the easiest ways to control the group, is by claiming
                          the above... but the truth of the matter is, HK was advised by his
                          Lawyers that he should be very careful of what eckankrap and Klemp puts
                          out there in the eck community concerning DG.  And vis a versa, DG is
                          restricted on what he can share or say due to certain laws.
                          >
                          Klemp has found a way to threaten his flock, all the while also
                          protecting his rock pile of gold.  *Fear* is the ultimate control
                          factor; it works in most cases....
                           
                           
                           
                           
                        • prometheus_973
                          Hi Liz, You make some good points. I wonder- What is Gross still getting paid per month from ECKANKAR (HK) for keeping his mouth shut? Shouldn t HK share this
                          Message 12 of 18 , Aug 8 10:36 AM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi Liz,
                            You make some good points. I wonder- What is Gross still
                            getting paid per month from ECKANKAR (HK) for keeping
                            his mouth shut? Shouldn't HK share this information with
                            the membership? I think so! Why hide it or ignore the fact
                            that people want to know the details even today! There has
                            to be a settlement and monthly check to Gross right?!
                            Otherwise, Darwin and company would be online attacking
                            Klemp and sharing juicy little tid-bits of info on Klemp and
                            his crew. The lack of such activity indicates that hush money
                            is still being paid out.

                            On the other hand... since DG fell from Grace AFTER 10/22/81
                            could it be that he has NOW been reinstated as an ECK Master
                            by the SUGMAD. Afterall, Klemp doesn't know everything about
                            all of the ECK Masters, or Who they are, or of their status.
                            If HK did know everything he'd know the name of that
                            "Unknown ECK Master" that he has written about.

                            So, Why doesn't Klemp reach out to Gross and recognize him
                            as an ECK Master? Has DG Not atoned for his sins, or were they
                            really Klemp's sins. DG lived Large and HK lives Small and that
                            was DG's real sin because spiritual people can't disregard money
                            by spending it and buying a private jet, or having an expense
                            account. Hmmmmm I wonder how HK spends his money? Does
                            he donate money to the local community to help others? How
                            much if any? Where are the financial statements? Is there a
                            reason this is not shared with the General EK Membership
                            who donate their hard earned money via their Membership
                            Donation, Book, CD, Audio & Video, and jewerly purchases.
                            Of course these are just a few of the income sources of the
                            EK org. Why not share this info at the World Wide Seminar
                            to 2nds and above?

                            As far as Joan becoming a FLEM or Co-LEM... well, it's still
                            possible. HK can still be the Mahanta and Joan can become
                            a 12th and possibly a 13th for the rest of her days. But then,
                            she would be next in line to take over as the Mahanta if Klemp
                            croaked (like PT) without a Male successor being named. Or,
                            maybe HK has a Will (that he updates) where he does make
                            a Male selection for the 974th (4th) position. Except, if Joan
                            is the 974th LEM.

                            Prometheus





                            Elizabeth wrote:
                            >
                            > Hey Prometheus, guess I should explain my thoughts further on this topic?
                            >
                            > Klemp and Company were in fact counseled on what should and should not be
                            > shared publicly. They (he) was also advised on what to remove from the
                            > *history* of eckankar, pertaining to PT and DG. Buying up old material so
                            > the new members won't have access, warning members to stay off the computer.
                            > . All part of keeping their membership in the dark. Some listen, some don
                            > t. But there will always be the gullable willing to put on those rose
                            > colored glasses and develop tunnel vision.
                            >
                            > So how does a god man down play or avoid having to deal with *issues*?
                            > The org pays these bottom duelers (eck lawyers) big money to keep them out
                            > of trouble! Did someone advise klemp in 1983, I give up! But I do know
                            > back in the day, we were warned not to keep any of DG's material, burn it
                            > all.... Then warning of what would happen if the membership didn't comply,
                            > as you mentioned how the org put *fear* into the membership. "spiritual
                            > immaturity" . And that lam excuse that Klemp is of a higher consciousness
                            > than the godman that invented the path... Another example of why we shouldn
                            > t hang on to old PT material! Not sure what klemp will pull out of his A**
                            > in future years; maybe PT will be in the back ground like those FLEMs?
                            > Hey what's the story on the next FLEM announcement? Oct is coming up real
                            > soon.....
                            >
                            > And what about when he is too darn sick to show up at all.... Or god forbid
                            > what if he kicks the bucket? Will they put a talking head up on a big
                            > screen at the seminars and claim klemp is alive and well, use a curtain to
                            > cover up the controls going on behind the scenes? LOL now that I know the
                            > truth behind the lies, it will be very entertaining when they end up having
                            > to announce a new LEM. Who is willing to carry on the BS / Rod? Maybe the
                            > so called LEM is training isn't ready because, well he just isn't willing to
                            > take on the burden, or maybe.... There isn't anyone in line, and klemp
                            > would like to go crawl under a rock somewhere and disappear? Is the org /
                            > business willable?
                            >
                            >
                            > Conspiracy... To cover up the dirty little secrets of the org. ;-) Klemp
                            > isn't smart enough to handle this without lawyers. Though every time he
                            > opens his mouth he still looks stupid! Lawyers aren't paid to increase the
                            > IQ of a godman... Shouldn't he already be at a level far more superior than
                            > the population of the entire universe! Wonder what initiation level these
                            > lawyers are at, to be able to have some control over how the godman handles
                            > his org / business?
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Liz
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Prometheus wrote:
                            >
                            > Anyway, I doubt that Klemp is forbidden by law or settlement
                            > to say anything negative about Gross after re-reading the
                            > 1983 H.I. Meeting comments that Klemp makes involving DG.
                            > These comments by Klemp are both negative and misleading.
                            >
                            > Prometheus wrote:
                            >
                            > HK's spin and threat is that Anyone Discussing DG
                            > or Questioning the validity of anything pertaining
                            > to the ECKANKAR Religion indicates a "spiritual
                            > immaturity."
                            >
                            > Liz wrote:
                            > Actually one of the easiest ways to control the group, is by claiming
                            > the above... but the truth of the matter is, HK was advised by his
                            > Lawyers that he should be very careful of what eckankrap and Klemp puts
                            > out there in the eck community concerning DG. And vis a versa, DG is
                            > restricted on what he can share or say due to certain laws.
                            > >
                            > Klemp has found a way to threaten his flock, all the while also
                            > protecting his rock pile of gold. *Fear* is the ultimate control
                            > factor; it works in most cases....
                            >
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