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ECK Initiations Are Discussed in Darwin's Deposition

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  • prometheus_973
    Hello All, One will see that the 972nd LEM/Mahanta seems to be somewhat confused by Twitchell s early Dogma. Keep in mind, however, that DG gave many long-time
    Message 1 of 1 , Jul 25, 2007
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      Hello All,
      One will see that the 972nd LEM/Mahanta seems to be
      somewhat confused by Twitchell's early Dogma. Keep
      in mind, however, that DG gave many long-time H.I.s
      most of their ECK Initiations, and that he gave Klemp
      ALL of his "Higher" Initiations. This too is from the "First"
      LINK on the LINKS Page (Left Column).

      Darwin Gross [Klemp's mentor] discusses Initiations and More!

      [Deposition of Darwin Gross, May 24, 1984 (MY CAPS)]

      "Q: … of Exhibit 57, address the first page of Exhibit 57.
      The article on Initiations, was this written by you?

      A: That's correct.

      Q: The beginning of the paragraph, next to the last paragraph
      on the page, starts, `this brings up the point of initiations and
      their place in your life. THERE ARE THREE PRIME INITIATIONS
      one can receive from a Vairagi Master.'

      A: That's correct.

      Q: What is that statement based on?

      A: Based on my knowledge of ECK and its teachings.

      Q: Is there any teaching, any writing, by Paul Twitchell that
      states there are THREE INITIATIONS?

      A: There are THREE GRAND DIVISIONS, basically, THREE
      MAJOR INITIATIONS.

      Q: Where is that written?

      A: JESUS, don't ask me. It's in the writings somewhere, in the
      Discourses and Books.

      Q: What are the THREE DIVISIONS?

      A: One is the DREAM STATE, when somebody is interested—
      Say they've given up beads, cross or they are not sure, they are
      hanging on to some symbol of their past religious teaching but
      they are seeking, and they are a sinner inside, no one in the physical
      does anything. They are led to BEN JAUBI in the GOBI DESERT
      in SOUL, not the physical body, they get the Dream Initiation, that's
      the FIRST INITIATION. Allows them to unfold spiritually.
      The next one is the PHYSICAL, it's like it allows them to
      unfold up to the SOUL PLANE, including the SOUL PLANE.

      The next DIVISION is from the SOUL PLANE BEYOND,
      but it's up to the INDIVIDUAL.

      Q: The initiation doesn't allow the person to unfold, does it?

      A: Yes, it does.

      Q: Without the Initiation can the person unfold?

      A: Sure. To some degree. Just by reading the books a lot
      of people have come to meet the Master in one form or
      another, the Master appeared to them—

      Q: How does your Initiation allow the person to unfold better
      than just by reading the books?

      A: IT'S NOT BETTER. There's just one direct path that
      I know of and I'm not in competition, nor did I or have I
      started a religious path as his accused.

      Q: How do these THREE INITIATIONS compare with the
      NINE INITIATIONS that you've talked about earlier that
      ECKANKAR gave to its Chelas members when you were
      Living ECK Master?

      A: That's up to the individual to decipher.

      Q: Paul Twitchell established the NINE INITIATIONS,
      didn't he?

      A: I would say, yes.

      Q: And ECKANKAR, for the 10 years you were Living
      ECK Master, and then the two years afterwards that you
      were associated with it, continued to grant NINE LEVELS
      of INITIATION to its—

      A: By for the record, Paul Twitchell established NINE
      INITIATIONS AGAINST the VARIOUS LEVELS of
      HEAVEN.

      Q: What do your THREE LEVELS of INITIATION—

      A: The GRAND DIVISIONS. The THREE GRAND
      DIVISIONS, basically.

      Q: I take it the FIRST INITIATION, the one in the
      DREAM STATE, is the same for BOTH you and
      PAUL TWITCHELL?

      A: For anyone on the spiritual path.

      Q: As I understand what you're saying, Mr. Gross, the
      Spiritual path is going to be the same, you can put different
      names on them; that is—

      A: Sure.

      Q: So can we agree that the FIRST LEVEL, the DREAM
      STATE INITIATION, is the same whether you or Paul
      Twitchell in following the NINE—

      A: I'm giving some guidance to people who are writing to
      me here, okay.

      Q: There are OTHER MYSTICAL RELIGIONS that believe
      in MORE THAN NINE STATES of INITIATION, aren't there?

      A: That's right.

      Q: In fact some talk about 11?

      A: Some SEVEN, some 33.

      Q: Has ECKANKAR ever talked about LESS than NINE
      LEVELS of INITIATION in the PHYSICAL WORLD?

      A: YES.

      Q: WHEN?

      Mr. Axelrod: ECKANKAR being the tenets and doctrine?

      Mr. Esler: The tenets and doctrine of ECKANKAR.

      BY MR. ESLER: (continuing)

      Q: When?

      A: Only TWO.

      Q: When, Where?

      A: It's in the writings by Paul Twitchell.

      Q: Where?

      A: I don't have the book in front of me. But the way it
      was, that if the seeker becomes ready spiritually he will
      meet the Master. Now, it doesn't always happen in the
      PHYSICAL, and he'll be given the SECOND INITIATION
      Whether it's in the OUTER. That had been up to and
      including 1965, that's the way it was handled down through
      time.

      Q: Until PAUL TWITCHELL came along; is that right?

      A: Still being done by others.

      Q: TWO LEVELS of INITIATION in ECKANKAR?

      A: Sure.

      Q: Who?

      A: The various Masters that work in the Wisdom Temples,
      there are students under these Masters. This is spelled out
      in writings, too. The individual has a choice to look to,
      YAUBL SACABI, FUBBI QUANTZ, GOPAL DAS,
      ET CETERA.

      Q: Or HAROLD KLEMP?

      A: Yeah, Right. That's the Individual choice, or JESUS
      or BUDDHA or MUHAMMED.

      Q: Can you point me to any Chelas who are following one
      of the other Masters as you've stated?

      A: I'm sure there are many out there who are.

      Q: But you don't know the names of any?

      A: NO.

      Q: If I were to ask you to help me find one of those
      Special Masters, GOPAL DAS, some of those people,
      You couldn't give addresses?

      A: GOPAL DAS as we think of it is dead in the Physical
      Body. He's dropped the clay shell. GOPAL DAS is on
      The Wisdom Temple on the High Astral Plane.

      Q: What is your SECOND LEVEL of INITIATION
      Compared to on Paul Twitchell's NINE SCALE?

      A: The same. Allows the individual to unfold.

      Q: But which of the NINE LEVELS of the INITIATION
      that Paul Twitchell has is your SECOND LEVEL of the
      INITIATION comparable to?

      A: Equivalent up to the, I'd say, up to the SIXTH. The
      FIFTH is only in the LOWER WORLD, the ETHERIC
      PLANE. If you go by LEVELS as Paul pointed them
      out on the chart.

      Q: Is it the SIXTH or the FIFTH or the Inbetween?

      A: You have to understand, I can give Initiation to
      Someone, or Harold can, or one of his Initiators, but
      if it takes that's another thing, that's up to the individual.
      The SECOND allows them to unfold to the SOUL PLANE.

      Q: Does it allow them to unfold beyond that PLANE?

      A: But they have to do their own HOMEWORK. I can't
      take them there, or do their Spiritual Work.

      Q: WHY DID YOU CHANGE FROM FIVE LEVELS
      OF INITIATION TO THAT POINT, TO ONE BIG JUMP?

      A: A lot of people asked me for Initiations and I have Not
      given any yet. I'm trying to guide them and tell them that
      they, themselves, can unfold. Most of them that have written
      me or asked me have already had the SECOND, or THIRD
      or FOURTH INITIATION.

      Q: Does a VAIRAGI MASTER have in your opinion the
      ability to give THREE INITIATIONS, whereas a Living
      ECK Master has the ability to give NINE?

      A: It's very possible.

      Q: Are you relying on Divine Inspiration in the statement
      There are THREE PRIME INITIATIONS one can receive
      From a Vairagi Master?

      A: Yes, sir.

      Q: You end the same paragraph on Exhibit 57 by saying,
      This is NOT the THIRD INITIATION – the THIRD
      INITIATION you are talking about is the SOUL INITIATION,
      So I gather the SECOND one is NOT the SOUL INITIATION,
      It must be something below the SOUL INITIATION?

      A: That's a DREAM INITIATION
      Q: And the FIRST is –

      A: The FIRST one is the DREAM INITIATION.

      Q: The SECOND one is Light and Sound?

      A: The Light and Sound which allows the individual
      To UNFOLD THEMSELVES to the SOUL PLANE.

      Q: And then the THIRD one recognized they have reached
      that point?

      A: Not Necessarily. It gives that opportunity to that
      individual to unfold from that point if he chooses, or she,
      beyond that.

      Q: If they don't receive the THIRD INITIATION can an
      Individual UNFOLD beyond the LEVEL of the SECOND
      INITIATION and into the SOUL PLANE?

      A: It's very possible, YES.

      Q: You state that the THIRD INITIATION is NOT the
      Equivalent of the FIFTH INITIATION in the last sentence
      of the paragraph on Exhibit 57 that we are talking about?

      A: Uh-huh. Let me try to – I don't have the chart here
      Or the Spiritual Notebook. There are Various Levels,
      PHYSICAL, ASTRAL, CAUSAL, MENTAL, ETHERIC
      and SOUL. The Physical you get the Dream. The Astral,
      after two years of study you get that, allows you to unfold
      and your Karmic Debts, et cetera, on that level of existence.
      But your SOUL is already on the SOUL PLANE regardless
      Of what Master, Vairagi master or ECK Master, has placed
      you there.

      Then there is the THIRD INITIATION, Causal Plane, the
      FOURTH INITIATION to the Mental World, the FIFTH
      INITIATION to the ETHERIC PLANE to the SIXTH to the
      SOUL PLANE. And on up, there's Levels beyond that.
      Q: Why the change from Paul Twitchell's teachings?

      A: I'm trying to help those who have either Dropped
      Out of ECKANKAR, who have written to me and said,
      `hey, I haven't been in ECK for a long time, et cetera,
      where am I at?' I'm trying to give them some help,
      is all. Right now the name of that is changed from Focus
      to Spiritual Focus, and again I'm going to reiterate and
      state it's NOT a Spiritual Path." [End]
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