ECK Initiations Are Discussed in Darwin's Deposition
- Hello All,
One will see that the 972nd LEM/Mahanta seems to be
somewhat confused by Twitchell's early Dogma. Keep
in mind, however, that DG gave many long-time H.I.s
most of their ECK Initiations, and that he gave Klemp
ALL of his "Higher" Initiations. This too is from the "First"
LINK on the LINKS Page (Left Column).
Darwin Gross [Klemp's mentor] discusses Initiations and More!
[Deposition of Darwin Gross, May 24, 1984 (MY CAPS)]
"Q: of Exhibit 57, address the first page of Exhibit 57.
The article on Initiations, was this written by you?
A: That's correct.
Q: The beginning of the paragraph, next to the last paragraph
on the page, starts, `this brings up the point of initiations and
their place in your life. THERE ARE THREE PRIME INITIATIONS
one can receive from a Vairagi Master.'
A: That's correct.
Q: What is that statement based on?
A: Based on my knowledge of ECK and its teachings.
Q: Is there any teaching, any writing, by Paul Twitchell that
states there are THREE INITIATIONS?
A: There are THREE GRAND DIVISIONS, basically, THREE
Q: Where is that written?
A: JESUS, don't ask me. It's in the writings somewhere, in the
Discourses and Books.
Q: What are the THREE DIVISIONS?
A: One is the DREAM STATE, when somebody is interested
Say they've given up beads, cross or they are not sure, they are
hanging on to some symbol of their past religious teaching but
they are seeking, and they are a sinner inside, no one in the physical
does anything. They are led to BEN JAUBI in the GOBI DESERT
in SOUL, not the physical body, they get the Dream Initiation, that's
the FIRST INITIATION. Allows them to unfold spiritually.
The next one is the PHYSICAL, it's like it allows them to
unfold up to the SOUL PLANE, including the SOUL PLANE.
The next DIVISION is from the SOUL PLANE BEYOND,
but it's up to the INDIVIDUAL.
Q: The initiation doesn't allow the person to unfold, does it?
A: Yes, it does.
Q: Without the Initiation can the person unfold?
A: Sure. To some degree. Just by reading the books a lot
of people have come to meet the Master in one form or
another, the Master appeared to them
Q: How does your Initiation allow the person to unfold better
than just by reading the books?
A: IT'S NOT BETTER. There's just one direct path that
I know of and I'm not in competition, nor did I or have I
started a religious path as his accused.
Q: How do these THREE INITIATIONS compare with the
NINE INITIATIONS that you've talked about earlier that
ECKANKAR gave to its Chelas members when you were
Living ECK Master?
A: That's up to the individual to decipher.
Q: Paul Twitchell established the NINE INITIATIONS,
A: I would say, yes.
Q: And ECKANKAR, for the 10 years you were Living
ECK Master, and then the two years afterwards that you
were associated with it, continued to grant NINE LEVELS
of INITIATION to its
A: By for the record, Paul Twitchell established NINE
INITIATIONS AGAINST the VARIOUS LEVELS of
Q: What do your THREE LEVELS of INITIATION
A: The GRAND DIVISIONS. The THREE GRAND
Q: I take it the FIRST INITIATION, the one in the
DREAM STATE, is the same for BOTH you and
A: For anyone on the spiritual path.
Q: As I understand what you're saying, Mr. Gross, the
Spiritual path is going to be the same, you can put different
names on them; that is
Q: So can we agree that the FIRST LEVEL, the DREAM
STATE INITIATION, is the same whether you or Paul
Twitchell in following the NINE
A: I'm giving some guidance to people who are writing to
me here, okay.
Q: There are OTHER MYSTICAL RELIGIONS that believe
in MORE THAN NINE STATES of INITIATION, aren't there?
A: That's right.
Q: In fact some talk about 11?
A: Some SEVEN, some 33.
Q: Has ECKANKAR ever talked about LESS than NINE
LEVELS of INITIATION in the PHYSICAL WORLD?
Mr. Axelrod: ECKANKAR being the tenets and doctrine?
Mr. Esler: The tenets and doctrine of ECKANKAR.
BY MR. ESLER: (continuing)
A: Only TWO.
Q: When, Where?
A: It's in the writings by Paul Twitchell.
A: I don't have the book in front of me. But the way it
was, that if the seeker becomes ready spiritually he will
meet the Master. Now, it doesn't always happen in the
PHYSICAL, and he'll be given the SECOND INITIATION
Whether it's in the OUTER. That had been up to and
including 1965, that's the way it was handled down through
Q: Until PAUL TWITCHELL came along; is that right?
A: Still being done by others.
Q: TWO LEVELS of INITIATION in ECKANKAR?
A: The various Masters that work in the Wisdom Temples,
there are students under these Masters. This is spelled out
in writings, too. The individual has a choice to look to,
YAUBL SACABI, FUBBI QUANTZ, GOPAL DAS,
Q: Or HAROLD KLEMP?
A: Yeah, Right. That's the Individual choice, or JESUS
or BUDDHA or MUHAMMED.
Q: Can you point me to any Chelas who are following one
of the other Masters as you've stated?
A: I'm sure there are many out there who are.
Q: But you don't know the names of any?
Q: If I were to ask you to help me find one of those
Special Masters, GOPAL DAS, some of those people,
You couldn't give addresses?
A: GOPAL DAS as we think of it is dead in the Physical
Body. He's dropped the clay shell. GOPAL DAS is on
The Wisdom Temple on the High Astral Plane.
Q: What is your SECOND LEVEL of INITIATION
Compared to on Paul Twitchell's NINE SCALE?
A: The same. Allows the individual to unfold.
Q: But which of the NINE LEVELS of the INITIATION
that Paul Twitchell has is your SECOND LEVEL of the
INITIATION comparable to?
A: Equivalent up to the, I'd say, up to the SIXTH. The
FIFTH is only in the LOWER WORLD, the ETHERIC
PLANE. If you go by LEVELS as Paul pointed them
out on the chart.
Q: Is it the SIXTH or the FIFTH or the Inbetween?
A: You have to understand, I can give Initiation to
Someone, or Harold can, or one of his Initiators, but
if it takes that's another thing, that's up to the individual.
The SECOND allows them to unfold to the SOUL PLANE.
Q: Does it allow them to unfold beyond that PLANE?
A: But they have to do their own HOMEWORK. I can't
take them there, or do their Spiritual Work.
Q: WHY DID YOU CHANGE FROM FIVE LEVELS
OF INITIATION TO THAT POINT, TO ONE BIG JUMP?
A: A lot of people asked me for Initiations and I have Not
given any yet. I'm trying to guide them and tell them that
they, themselves, can unfold. Most of them that have written
me or asked me have already had the SECOND, or THIRD
or FOURTH INITIATION.
Q: Does a VAIRAGI MASTER have in your opinion the
ability to give THREE INITIATIONS, whereas a Living
ECK Master has the ability to give NINE?
A: It's very possible.
Q: Are you relying on Divine Inspiration in the statement
There are THREE PRIME INITIATIONS one can receive
From a Vairagi Master?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: You end the same paragraph on Exhibit 57 by saying,
This is NOT the THIRD INITIATION the THIRD
INITIATION you are talking about is the SOUL INITIATION,
So I gather the SECOND one is NOT the SOUL INITIATION,
It must be something below the SOUL INITIATION?
A: That's a DREAM INITIATION
Q: And the FIRST is
A: The FIRST one is the DREAM INITIATION.
Q: The SECOND one is Light and Sound?
A: The Light and Sound which allows the individual
To UNFOLD THEMSELVES to the SOUL PLANE.
Q: And then the THIRD one recognized they have reached
A: Not Necessarily. It gives that opportunity to that
individual to unfold from that point if he chooses, or she,
Q: If they don't receive the THIRD INITIATION can an
Individual UNFOLD beyond the LEVEL of the SECOND
INITIATION and into the SOUL PLANE?
A: It's very possible, YES.
Q: You state that the THIRD INITIATION is NOT the
Equivalent of the FIFTH INITIATION in the last sentence
of the paragraph on Exhibit 57 that we are talking about?
A: Uh-huh. Let me try to I don't have the chart here
Or the Spiritual Notebook. There are Various Levels,
PHYSICAL, ASTRAL, CAUSAL, MENTAL, ETHERIC
and SOUL. The Physical you get the Dream. The Astral,
after two years of study you get that, allows you to unfold
and your Karmic Debts, et cetera, on that level of existence.
But your SOUL is already on the SOUL PLANE regardless
Of what Master, Vairagi master or ECK Master, has placed
Then there is the THIRD INITIATION, Causal Plane, the
FOURTH INITIATION to the Mental World, the FIFTH
INITIATION to the ETHERIC PLANE to the SIXTH to the
SOUL PLANE. And on up, there's Levels beyond that.
Q: Why the change from Paul Twitchell's teachings?
A: I'm trying to help those who have either Dropped
Out of ECKANKAR, who have written to me and said,
`hey, I haven't been in ECK for a long time, et cetera,
where am I at?' I'm trying to give them some help,
is all. Right now the name of that is changed from Focus
to Spiritual Focus, and again I'm going to reiterate and
state it's NOT a Spiritual Path." [End]