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The H.I. Letter 06/2007 [Embellished Story #2]

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  • prometheus_973
    The H.I. Letter, June 2007 (Front Page Article) by Harold Klemp [Klemp s 2nd Load of Crap] HK: Dear Brothers of the Leaf... A few people among a thousand are
    Message 1 of 9 , Jul 13, 2007
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      The H.I. Letter, June 2007 (Front Page Article) by Harold Klemp
      [Klemp's 2nd Load of Crap]

      HK: "Dear Brothers of the Leaf...

      A few people among a thousand are ready for the ECK
      teachings of spiritual freedom. I have mentioned this in
      my talks and writings from time to time."

      [ME] I would think, from looking at the number of chelas,
      that Klemp's accuracy is askewed here as well! The count
      is actually around One chela (sucker) per One Hundred
      Thousand people! Eckankar is a scam, but not that good
      of one!

      HK: "Jim, who lives in the northwestern part of the U.S.,
      did the math for his city of around a million people. He
      reasoned that since the Master had said 'a few,' he meant
      at least three, or he would have said 'a couple of.' 'A few
      people' in this case meant three thousand Souls ready to
      learn about the Mahanta and ECK teachings. So Jim and
      other chelas made plans to find them."

      [ME] LOL! There aren't Three Thousand ECKists in
      Minnesota and most of them moved there! If Klemp
      really wanted people to "learn" about Eckankar then why
      hasn't he placed National Ads like the Mormons do?
      I think HK just wants his volunteer Vahantas, etc. to keep
      busy (with busy work) and to stay distracted (seeking that
      elusive carrot of initiation) with those required trainings,
      (and required brown nosing) while donating their own time
      and money to qualify for those coveted fake initiations and
      "important" positions within the RESA hierarchies. Klemp
      could save a lot of time, personal resources, and leg work
      for his Chelas in the field by spending more of Eckankar's
      money on National Ads rather than on an Eckankar
      (Believe It or Not!) Museum!

      HK: "In connection with these plans, Jim had a dream in which
      he was in the back of a church hall. Smoke began pouring
      into the room. Quickly, he opened the back door and found
      it led outside through a long hallway. Jim faced a choice:
      to save himself or go back into the room and look for trapped
      people."

      [ME] Actually, wouldn't most of us go back and help people
      escape from a burning building? Sure! Besides, this dream
      is so typical of what others in different religions, also, dream!
      Eckankar is a church too isn't it? Klemp has stated that it is!
      Maybe the true "connection" with this dream and Jim's Vahanta
      plans is that this dream is a personal message showing him that
      he needs to "escape" from the Eckankar Church/teachings, and
      to take others with him! Also, when one is focused on a specific
      predetermined outcome it is common to have ones mind
      validate this through images and dreams.

      HK: "He chose the latter. A door in front of him did not feel
      hot, so he opened it and began to coax people to leave by the
      back door. Many did." What did Jim see as the meaning of his
      dream?"

      [ME] It's obvious what he would choose! And, Jim's been brain-
      washed to see only one explanation for his dream!

      HK: "I wonder if this is a metaphor for Dream 3000 (the name
      of the Vahana plans that he and others had drafted), he mused.
      Perhaps, he thought, I will rescue those who find the formal
      religions suffocating. The long arm of the Mahanta."

      [ME] Doesn't this whole story, now, seem that it's been
      manipulated! Klemp stated that he's mentioned, before,
      in both his writings and talks that "a few people among a
      thousand are ready for the ECK teachings." And, now, it's
      mentioned that there is a local Vahana project called Dream
      3000 that "Jim" is involved with and even helped to draft!
      So why, (in this 2nd embellished letter to H.I.s), does it state
      that Jim "did the math" and came up with 3 versus 3000!

      It's obvious that Klemp is trying to "inspire" Eck Leaders (H.I.s)
      to get those numbers up! However, some areas have already
      met the quota (3 per 1000) in letting people "know" about Eckankar.
      One can't force people to join! When is Klemp going to do his
      part and spend those Eckankar funds on National Publicity?
      Never! It's all about getting the local Eckists to spend their
      own money and time while jumping through those hoops. HK
      wants to prevent too many more H.I.s from topping out and
      receiving that 7th Initiation. Eckists should think about this and
      that endless cycle where bringing in more "paying" members
      (the only kind) is more important than than providing "New"
      insights for greater (higher) spiritual growth. Oops! don't forget
      that glass ceiling! Let's face it: Everything that Klemp has to offer
      has already been provided by Twitchell's plagiarisms and distortions
      of Truth. Klemp just recycles and spins the stories of others to
      make it seem like some sort of a "spiritual" message.

      Why do Eckists really think/feel/imagine that they need a
      middleman (Mahanta), or to be a follower of a religion after,
      especially, 30 years of membership?! Amazing! If one hasn't
      reached independency versus Co-dependency and Mastership
      with Spiritual Freedom after 30 years then it's time to leave!

      Prometheus
      p.s. I wonder if Eckists are trying to convert Muslims (helping them
      "learn" about Eckankar) like Eckists are with the Christians and Jews?
      Maybe Jim could "find them" in the Muslim communities?!
    • prometheus_973
      The H.I. Letter, June 2007 (Front Page Article) by Harold Klemp #1 HK: Dear Brothers of the Leaf, The Mahanta REACHES OUT FOR SEEKERS in surprising ways. A
      Message 2 of 9 , Jul 14, 2007
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        The H.I. Letter, June 2007 (Front Page Article)
        by Harold Klemp

        #1

        HK: "Dear Brothers of the Leaf,

        The Mahanta REACHES OUT FOR SEEKERS in surprising
        ways. A CASE IN POINT is the Story Told by a Higher
        Initiate, whom WE WILL CALL MARY, who is in AUSTRALIA."

        [ME] Whom "We" will call Mary? Who's "we?" Why not say,
        Whom "I" will call Mary? Is this a Freudian slip showing
        that Klemp is, also, a Paranoid Schizophrenic and a
        narcissist?! I think so! Also, as you read this "story" look
        for and compare: Who did what; Why it was done; How
        many people did it affect; in What way?

        HK: "Mary has a friend, June (a pseudonym), who is an ECK
        initiate. June had been an initiate Quite A FEW YEARS, UNTIL
        ABOUT TEN YEARS AGO, when she decided to STEP BACK
        from the OUTER WORKS of ECK. She did so BECAUSE SHE FELT
        UNWORTHY and UNABLE to reach what she felt were THE
        REQUIREMENTS NEEDED as an INITIATE in ECK. Yet she kept
        up with the Spiritual Exercises of ECK and inner contact with
        the Master."

        [ME] So, "June" (probably an H.I.) stepped back and took a
        rest about ten years ago (1997). It seems that June couldn't
        fulfill the Eck Leadership requirements for H.I.s which includes
        participating in and planning intros, taking a leadership role,
        having the required trainings, becoming a Cleric (first) and
        having to do the EWS, and being a spokesperson (locally) for
        Eckankar. Many people have the fear of public speaking. Many
        of these H.I.s, in the past, worked in the background until
        Klemp implemented the restrictions in order to "slow down"
        the Eck Initiations to prevent too many more reaching the
        limits of the 7th!

        HK: "During this ten-year sabbatical from the outer ECK works,
        June decided to learn Mandarin Chinese. She is Chinese."

        [ME] Okay, NOW Klemp is saying that "JUNE," also, took TEN
        YEARS OFF (ten-year sabbatical) starting about "ten years ago."
        The thing that smells, here, is that Eckists are only permitted
        to officially take a FIVE-YEAR REST PERIOD (sabbatical). Does
        this mean that German-American H.I.s can take a TEN YEAR
        SABBATICAL from the "outer ECK works" to learn GERMAN?
        It seems so! However, will they also lose initiations? I know
        that they lose the time-in-grade for that next promotion.
        Except, Eckists in countries outside of the U.S. do get promoted
        faster!

        HK: "Fast-forward now to several years ago, when she came
        back to the outer ECK works and resumed the ECK Satsang
        classes. One day Mary called her. Would June like to give a
        short talk at the ECK Worship Service on how it was when she
        left the outer study and how it is now? June readily agreed."

        [ME] Isn't Klemp's Time-Line kind of screwed up?! HK states
        that "June" stepped back from the outer Eck works 10 years ago,
        and took a 10 year rest (sabbatical). Now, Klemp wants us to
        "fast-forward" to "several years ago!" Maybe we should REWIND
        to "several years ago!" Except, this doesn't make sense either
        if about 10 years ago, 1997, she took a 10 year rest to 2007.
        So, how could "JUNE" come "back to the outer ECK works"
        several (4-5?) years ago in 2002?! Klemp doesn't even have
        the awareness to keep his "facts" accurate in his embellished
        stories! Also, what was it, originally, that made "June" feel
        "UNWORTHY and UNABLE to REACH what she felt were the
        REQUIREMENTS NEEDED as an initiate in ECK?" Why did this
        change? Did she have more confidence or find some additional
        identity or self-knowledge through the process of learning a
        new language? Klemp seems to skip over these details, and
        lacks the insight to give clarity for this.

        HK: "Later, when the service was over and most people were
        gone from the ECK center, a car pulled into a parking spot right
        out front. An Asian man climbed out and then stood looking
        in at the ECK-center door." 'Would you like to come in and look
        around?' Mary asked. Mary had a feeling that he had a hard time
        understanding English, so she called June over. June addressed
        him in Mandarin. Soon they were engaged in a lively conversation."

        [ME] Interesting! Klemp states that (H.I.) "Mary Had a Feeling."
        I thought that "feelings" and "intuition," for Eckists, were of a
        negative and lower Astral experience or focus!

        HK: "Later, June told Mary and other ECK initiates his story.
        The Man had never heard of ECKANKAR before. He was
        on a short vacation from Taiwan and had been looking for
        the marketplace. He had only stopped in front of the ECK
        center because he was looking for a parking spot. The only
        open one was right at the center's front door.

        'This is a miracle!' he kept saying. 'A miracle!' For the ECK
        and the Mahanta were exactly what he was looking for."

        [ME] If this common incident was a "miracle" for this guy
        and for these Eckists, as well as, for Klemp then this really
        limits what kind of "miracles" and changes in consciousness
        will take place in the future for any of these people! These
        things happen to EVERYONE and NOT just to ECKISTS!
        There are TV shows that show incidents "miracles" that are
        really astounding rather than these mundane little Eckie
        stories that can't even follow a time-line! It seems that Klemp
        is grabbing at straws (with these stories) to keep Eckankar afloat!

        HK: "That is an excellent example of how the Mahanta's long arm
        reaches out to a true seeker. But then, likely as not, he calls
        on you to do your part. The path of ECK is one of giving and
        receiving, for that is the way of sure spiritual unfoldment.
        June undoubtedly learned this firsthand."

        [ME] I'm curious about one thing here. What makes this business
        man from Taiwan, who is visiting Australia, a "TRUE SEEKER?"
        Did this guy join Eckankar? What did the Mahanta have to do
        with "June" taking 10 years off from the Outer Eck Works to learn
        Mandarin in order to have have a short conversation with this man?
        Maybe all ECKists need to take TEN YEARS OFF to prepare for
        "miracles" to happen to them! Is this Klemp's real (hidden)
        message to his H.I.s? LOL!

        The thing with ECKANKAR, and ALL religions, is there is always
        a religious leader (prophet-saviour-cleric, etc.) taking credit for
        healings, miracles, prophecies, etc. in advance, after-the-fact,
        and in one way or another! They all try to make their approach
        to be the best, fastest, highest, and the one-and-only valid
        teaching from God! They have all of the answers and all of
        the miracles while everyone else, the non-members, are lost
        and condemned to a Hell of some sort, unless, "seekers" join
        their specific group of believers. However, the mind's imagination
        will mock-up what it focuses upon and desires, sometimes/
        usually subtly, through various levels of conscious, subconscious,
        and unconsciousness workings of mental energy.

        The sad thing for ECKists is: That they can't see that Eckankar
        is similar to ALL other religions; They aren't aware of their
        roots (Radhasoami and Ruhani Satsang); ECKists aren't able to
        see that Klemp has nothing of spiritual substance to offer them!
        This H.I. LETTER is just a pep talk to inspire H.I.s to get out there
        and spend their time and money recruiting more members and
        along the way they might experience the same "miracles" that
        other people experience throughout life! Another thing is...
        It seems that the More Clueless ECKists and the Less Spiritually
        Free ECKists are the ones that are the Long-Time (30 year plus)
        "Higher" ones when others have achieved Self-Mastery and
        Spiritual Freedom in fewer years and in NO YEARS as an ECKist!

        Prometheus
      • mishmisha9
        The Secret Responsibilities of H.I.s--Be a Vahana! LOL! Obviously, Klemp is giving tips on how H.I.s can more successfully achieve their vahana duties: learn
        Message 3 of 9 , Jul 15, 2007
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          The Secret Responsibilities of H.I.s--Be a Vahana! LOL!

          Obviously, Klemp is giving tips on how H.I.s can more
          successfully achieve their vahana duties: learn how to
          communicate with those people who speak a different language;
          mingle with people of other religions and find a path to lead
          them out the backdoor into the eck; and finally, look for street
          kids as they are very vulnerable and perhaps easily manipulated.

          You know I'd be interested in knowing how many children of
          eckists actually remain eckists as adults? It doesn't seem that
          the eck youth groups are as large as the adults--it would seem
          there would be more? Of course, Harold's daughter ditched
          eckankar--that is rather amazing in itself!!

          Well, these three embellished stories do show those lower
          initiates what they can look forward to when they finally achieve
          H.I. status--it's all about recruitment! It's nothing about
          being more spiritually enlightened--it's all about H.I.s being
          elevated up to BIG recruiter status, nothing more! ! LOL!

          On another note, though, it is rather sad when one finally
          realizes how duped one has been, and then add the guilt trip of
          having duped others by dutifully trying to recruit others into
          the org! It does bother me that I handed out those little eck
          books, Ancient Wisdom for Today, to so many people. I don't
          mind that I was foolish--I'm only sorry I tried to mislead others.
          Saying that eckankar is no worse than any other religion, or
          that one can take away something of value from the teachings,
          just doesn't excuse my behavior or responsibility in fooling
          others through dumb vahana work. To me, putting value on
          the eck experience this way is just an attempt at protecting ego.
          Personally, I feel better for recognizing the guilt I have for
          participating in the vahana activities.

          Mish

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
          "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
          >
          > The H.I. Letter, June 2007 (Front Page Article)
          > by Harold Klemp
          >
          > #1
          >
          > HK: "Dear Brothers of the Leaf,
          >
          > The Mahanta REACHES OUT FOR SEEKERS in surprising
          > ways. A CASE IN POINT is the Story Told by a Higher
          > Initiate, whom WE WILL CALL MARY, who is in AUSTRALIA."
          >
          > [ME] Whom "We" will call Mary? Who's "we?" Why not say,
          > Whom "I" will call Mary? Is this a Freudian slip showing
          > that Klemp is, also, a Paranoid Schizophrenic and a
          > narcissist?! I think so! Also, as you read this "story" look
          > for and compare: Who did what; Why it was done; How
          > many people did it affect; in What way?
          >
          > HK: "Mary has a friend, June (a pseudonym), who is an ECK
          > initiate. June had been an initiate Quite A FEW YEARS, UNTIL
          > ABOUT TEN YEARS AGO, when she decided to STEP BACK
          > from the OUTER WORKS of ECK. She did so BECAUSE SHE FELT
          > UNWORTHY and UNABLE to reach what she felt were THE
          > REQUIREMENTS NEEDED as an INITIATE in ECK. Yet she kept
          > up with the Spiritual Exercises of ECK and inner contact with
          > the Master."
          >
          > [ME] So, "June" (probably an H.I.) stepped back and took a
          > rest about ten years ago (1997). It seems that June couldn't
          > fulfill the Eck Leadership requirements for H.I.s which includes
          > participating in and planning intros, taking a leadership role,
          > having the required trainings, becoming a Cleric (first) and
          > having to do the EWS, and being a spokesperson (locally) for
          > Eckankar. Many people have the fear of public speaking. Many
          > of these H.I.s, in the past, worked in the background until
          > Klemp implemented the restrictions in order to "slow down"
          > the Eck Initiations to prevent too many more reaching the
          > limits of the 7th!
          >
          > HK: "During this ten-year sabbatical from the outer ECK works,
          > June decided to learn Mandarin Chinese. She is Chinese."
          >
          > [ME] Okay, NOW Klemp is saying that "JUNE," also, took TEN
          > YEARS OFF (ten-year sabbatical) starting about "ten years ago."
          > The thing that smells, here, is that Eckists are only permitted
          > to officially take a FIVE-YEAR REST PERIOD (sabbatical). Does
          > this mean that German-American H.I.s can take a TEN YEAR
          > SABBATICAL from the "outer ECK works" to learn GERMAN?
          > It seems so! However, will they also lose initiations? I know
          > that they lose the time-in-grade for that next promotion.
          > Except, Eckists in countries outside of the U.S. do get promoted
          > faster!
          >
          > HK: "Fast-forward now to several years ago, when she came
          > back to the outer ECK works and resumed the ECK Satsang
          > classes. One day Mary called her. Would June like to give a
          > short talk at the ECK Worship Service on how it was when she
          > left the outer study and how it is now? June readily agreed."
          >
          > [ME] Isn't Klemp's Time-Line kind of screwed up?! HK states
          > that "June" stepped back from the outer Eck works 10 years ago,
          > and took a 10 year rest (sabbatical). Now, Klemp wants us to
          > "fast-forward" to "several years ago!" Maybe we should REWIND
          > to "several years ago!" Except, this doesn't make sense either
          > if about 10 years ago, 1997, she took a 10 year rest to 2007.
          > So, how could "JUNE" come "back to the outer ECK works"
          > several (4-5?) years ago in 2002?! Klemp doesn't even have
          > the awareness to keep his "facts" accurate in his embellished
          > stories! Also, what was it, originally, that made "June" feel
          > "UNWORTHY and UNABLE to REACH what she felt were the
          > REQUIREMENTS NEEDED as an initiate in ECK?" Why did this
          > change? Did she have more confidence or find some additional
          > identity or self-knowledge through the process of learning a
          > new language? Klemp seems to skip over these details, and
          > lacks the insight to give clarity for this.
          >
          > HK: "Later, when the service was over and most people were
          > gone from the ECK center, a car pulled into a parking spot right
          > out front. An Asian man climbed out and then stood looking
          > in at the ECK-center door." 'Would you like to come in and look
          > around?' Mary asked. Mary had a feeling that he had a hard time
          > understanding English, so she called June over. June addressed
          > him in Mandarin. Soon they were engaged in a lively conversation."
          >
          > [ME] Interesting! Klemp states that (H.I.) "Mary Had a Feeling."
          > I thought that "feelings" and "intuition," for Eckists, were of a
          > negative and lower Astral experience or focus!
          >
          > HK: "Later, June told Mary and other ECK initiates his story.
          > The Man had never heard of ECKANKAR before. He was
          > on a short vacation from Taiwan and had been looking for
          > the marketplace. He had only stopped in front of the ECK
          > center because he was looking for a parking spot. The only
          > open one was right at the center's front door.
          >
          > 'This is a miracle!' he kept saying. 'A miracle!' For the ECK
          > and the Mahanta were exactly what he was looking for."
          >
          > [ME] If this common incident was a "miracle" for this guy
          > and for these Eckists, as well as, for Klemp then this really
          > limits what kind of "miracles" and changes in consciousness
          > will take place in the future for any of these people! These
          > things happen to EVERYONE and NOT just to ECKISTS!
          > There are TV shows that show incidents "miracles" that are
          > really astounding rather than these mundane little Eckie
          > stories that can't even follow a time-line! It seems that Klemp
          > is grabbing at straws (with these stories) to keep Eckankar afloat!
          >
          > HK: "That is an excellent example of how the Mahanta's long arm
          > reaches out to a true seeker. But then, likely as not, he calls
          > on you to do your part. The path of ECK is one of giving and
          > receiving, for that is the way of sure spiritual unfoldment.
          > June undoubtedly learned this firsthand."
          >
          > [ME] I'm curious about one thing here. What makes this business
          > man from Taiwan, who is visiting Australia, a "TRUE SEEKER?"
          > Did this guy join Eckankar? What did the Mahanta have to do
          > with "June" taking 10 years off from the Outer Eck Works to learn
          > Mandarin in order to have have a short conversation with this man?
          > Maybe all ECKists need to take TEN YEARS OFF to prepare for
          > "miracles" to happen to them! Is this Klemp's real (hidden)
          > message to his H.I.s? LOL!
          >
          > The thing with ECKANKAR, and ALL religions, is there is always
          > a religious leader (prophet-saviour-cleric, etc.) taking credit for
          > healings, miracles, prophecies, etc. in advance, after-the-fact,
          > and in one way or another! They all try to make their approach
          > to be the best, fastest, highest, and the one-and-only valid
          > teaching from God! They have all of the answers and all of
          > the miracles while everyone else, the non-members, are lost
          > and condemned to a Hell of some sort, unless, "seekers" join
          > their specific group of believers. However, the mind's imagination
          > will mock-up what it focuses upon and desires, sometimes/
          > usually subtly, through various levels of conscious, subconscious,
          > and unconsciousness workings of mental energy.
          >
          > The sad thing for ECKists is: That they can't see that Eckankar
          > is similar to ALL other religions; They aren't aware of their
          > roots (Radhasoami and Ruhani Satsang); ECKists aren't able to
          > see that Klemp has nothing of spiritual substance to offer them!
          > This H.I. LETTER is just a pep talk to inspire H.I.s to get out there
          > and spend their time and money recruiting more members and
          > along the way they might experience the same "miracles" that
          > other people experience throughout life! Another thing is...
          > It seems that the More Clueless ECKists and the Less Spiritually
          > Free ECKists are the ones that are the Long-Time (30 year plus)
          > "Higher" ones when others have achieved Self-Mastery and
          > Spiritual Freedom in fewer years and in NO YEARS as an ECKist!
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
        • prometheus_973
          HK: Later, WHEN the SERVICE was OVER and MOST PEOPLE WERE GONE from the ECK CENTER, a car pulled into a PARKING SPOT right out front... He HAD ONLY STOPPED in
          Message 4 of 9 , Jul 15, 2007
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            HK: "Later, WHEN the SERVICE was OVER and MOST PEOPLE
            WERE GONE from the ECK CENTER, a car pulled into a PARKING
            SPOT right out front... He HAD ONLY STOPPED in front of the
            ECK center because he was looking for a PARKING SPOT. The
            only open one was right at the center's front door... 'This is a
            miracle!' he kept saying. 'A miracle!'... That is an excellent
            example of how the Mahanta's LONG ARM reaches out to a
            TRUE [Parking Spot] SEEKER. But then, likely as not, he calls
            on you to do your part [Move Your Car]. The path of ECK is
            one of GIVING [Until It Hurts] and RECEIVING [Imagined Results
            and Fake Initiations], for that is the way of SURE spiritual
            unfoldment" [As Long As You're Membership Is Current $$$].

            On another note-
            Hi Mish, I too still have some guilt for having brought people
            into Eckankar. I know of a few current H.I.s that I personally
            influenced to join. This is just one of the many reasons why this
            ESA site still exists... it's sort of an act of atonement for all of
            those years that my focus was so narrowed and closed minded.
            I had even become a religious fanatic as I was selling Eckankar.
            Away from the Eckankar Center or ECK Events I was a much
            happier person, but at Eckankar functions I changed and took
            things much too seriously. Those Eck Guidelines and knowing
            I was being watched and evaluated by my peers (and squealed
            upon to the RESA) led to a lot of stress because I wanted (needed)
            that higher position and next initiation. Also, with any religion
            it seems that 'misery loves company' and the more people
            [especially intelligent people] the religionists can bring into their
            fold the more proof they have, for others, that their religion has
            the highest "Truth." This is, also, why Eckankar will promote, (faster),
            Eckists that are professionals (doctors, lawyers, architects) or those
            who have a somewhat higher profile within the local community (it
            also helps to have experience in public speeking). And, foreign
            Eckists get promoted much faster than do U.S. Eckists! Therefore,
            success (initiation & position) in Eckankar is definitely tied into the
            Vahana (missionary) effort to bring in paying members. When one
            looks at Eckankar with some scrutiny via critical thinking one can
            see that Eckankar makes a lot of promises (like all religions do)
            and then lets it's chelas fill-in the blanks with their imaginations,
            except, one has to follow the rules & dogma (like with other religions)
            and become conformists! It's amazing that Eckists think that they
            are non-conformists when they have just become conformists of
            a different sort. How can Eckists really claim that Eckankar is an
            Individual "Path" to God when it is neither Individual or a path to
            "God!" Eckankar is just more Religious Delusion and Myth like the
            Older Religions that Eckists gave up!

            Prometheus



            mish wrote:
            >
            >
            > The Secret Responsibilities of H.I.s--Be a Vahana! LOL!
            >
            > Obviously, Klemp is giving tips on how H.I.s can more
            > successfully achieve their vahana duties: learn how to
            > communicate with those people who speak a different language;
            > mingle with people of other religions and find a path to lead
            > them out the backdoor into the eck; and finally, look for street
            > kids as they are very vulnerable and perhaps easily manipulated.
            >
            > You know I'd be interested in knowing how many children of
            > eckists actually remain eckists as adults? It doesn't seem that
            > the eck youth groups are as large as the adults--it would seem
            > there would be more? Of course, Harold's daughter ditched
            > eckankar--that is rather amazing in itself!!
            >
            > Well, these three embellished stories do show those lower
            > initiates what they can look forward to when they finally achieve
            > H.I. status--it's all about recruitment! It's nothing about
            > being more spiritually enlightened--it's all about H.I.s being
            > elevated up to BIG recruiter status, nothing more! ! LOL!
            >
            > On another note, though, it is rather sad when one finally
            > realizes how duped one has been, and then add the guilt trip of
            > having duped others by dutifully trying to recruit others into
            > the org! It does bother me that I handed out those little eck
            > books, Ancient Wisdom for Today, to so many people. I don't
            > mind that I was foolish--I'm only sorry I tried to mislead others.
            > Saying that eckankar is no worse than any other religion, or
            > that one can take away something of value from the teachings,
            > just doesn't excuse my behavior or responsibility in fooling
            > others through dumb vahana work. To me, putting value on
            > the eck experience this way is just an attempt at protecting ego.
            > Personally, I feel better for recognizing the guilt I have for
            > participating in the vahana activities.
            >
            > Mish
            >
            > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
            > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
            > >
            > > The H.I. Letter, June 2007 (Front Page Article)
            > > by Harold Klemp
            > >
            > > #1
            > >
            > > HK: "Dear Brothers of the Leaf,
            > >
            > > The Mahanta REACHES OUT FOR SEEKERS in surprising
            > > ways. A CASE IN POINT is the Story Told by a Higher
            > > Initiate, whom WE WILL CALL MARY, who is in AUSTRALIA."
            > >
            > > [ME] Whom "We" will call Mary? Who's "we?" Why not say,
            > > Whom "I" will call Mary? Is this a Freudian slip showing
            > > that Klemp is, also, a Paranoid Schizophrenic and a
            > > narcissist?! I think so! Also, as you read this "story" look
            > > for and compare: Who did what; Why it was done; How
            > > many people did it affect; in What way?
            > >
            > > HK: "Mary has a friend, June (a pseudonym), who is an ECK
            > > initiate. June had been an initiate Quite A FEW YEARS, UNTIL
            > > ABOUT TEN YEARS AGO, when she decided to STEP BACK
            > > from the OUTER WORKS of ECK. She did so BECAUSE SHE FELT
            > > UNWORTHY and UNABLE to reach what she felt were THE
            > > REQUIREMENTS NEEDED as an INITIATE in ECK. Yet she kept
            > > up with the Spiritual Exercises of ECK and inner contact with
            > > the Master."
            > >
            > > [ME] So, "June" (probably an H.I.) stepped back and took a
            > > rest about ten years ago (1997). It seems that June couldn't
            > > fulfill the Eck Leadership requirements for H.I.s which includes
            > > participating in and planning intros, taking a leadership role,
            > > having the required trainings, becoming a Cleric (first) and
            > > having to do the EWS, and being a spokesperson (locally) for
            > > Eckankar. Many people have the fear of public speaking. Many
            > > of these H.I.s, in the past, worked in the background until
            > > Klemp implemented the restrictions in order to "slow down"
            > > the Eck Initiations to prevent too many more reaching the
            > > limits of the 7th!
            > >
            > > HK: "During this ten-year sabbatical from the outer ECK works,
            > > June decided to learn Mandarin Chinese. She is Chinese."
            > >
            > > [ME] Okay, NOW Klemp is saying that "JUNE," also, took TEN
            > > YEARS OFF (ten-year sabbatical) starting about "ten years ago."
            > > The thing that smells, here, is that Eckists are only permitted
            > > to officially take a FIVE-YEAR REST PERIOD (sabbatical). Does
            > > this mean that German-American H.I.s can take a TEN YEAR
            > > SABBATICAL from the "outer ECK works" to learn GERMAN?
            > > It seems so! However, will they also lose initiations? I know
            > > that they lose the time-in-grade for that next promotion.
            > > Except, Eckists in countries outside of the U.S. do get promoted
            > > faster!
            > >
            > > HK: "Fast-forward now to several years ago, when she came
            > > back to the outer ECK works and resumed the ECK Satsang
            > > classes. One day Mary called her. Would June like to give a
            > > short talk at the ECK Worship Service on how it was when she
            > > left the outer study and how it is now? June readily agreed."
            > >
            > > [ME] Isn't Klemp's Time-Line kind of screwed up?! HK states
            > > that "June" stepped back from the outer Eck works 10 years ago,
            > > and took a 10 year rest (sabbatical). Now, Klemp wants us to
            > > "fast-forward" to "several years ago!" Maybe we should REWIND
            > > to "several years ago!" Except, this doesn't make sense either
            > > if about 10 years ago, 1997, she took a 10 year rest to 2007.
            > > So, how could "JUNE" come "back to the outer ECK works"
            > > several (4-5?) years ago in 2002?! Klemp doesn't even have
            > > the awareness to keep his "facts" accurate in his embellished
            > > stories! Also, what was it, originally, that made "June" feel
            > > "UNWORTHY and UNABLE to REACH what she felt were the
            > > REQUIREMENTS NEEDED as an initiate in ECK?" Why did this
            > > change? Did she have more confidence or find some additional
            > > identity or self-knowledge through the process of learning a
            > > new language? Klemp seems to skip over these details, and
            > > lacks the insight to give clarity for this.
            > >
            > > HK: "Later, when the service was over and most people were
            > > gone from the ECK center, a car pulled into a parking spot right
            > > out front. An Asian man climbed out and then stood looking
            > > in at the ECK-center door." 'Would you like to come in and look
            > > around?' Mary asked. Mary had a feeling that he had a hard time
            > > understanding English, so she called June over. June addressed
            > > him in Mandarin. Soon they were engaged in a lively conversation."
            > >
            > > [ME] Interesting! Klemp states that (H.I.) "Mary Had a Feeling."
            > > I thought that "feelings" and "intuition," for Eckists, were of a
            > > negative and lower Astral experience or focus!
            > >
            > > HK: "Later, June told Mary and other ECK initiates his story.
            > > The Man had never heard of ECKANKAR before. He was
            > > on a short vacation from Taiwan and had been looking for
            > > the marketplace. He had only stopped in front of the ECK
            > > center because he was looking for a parking spot. The only
            > > open one was right at the center's front door.
            > >
            > > 'This is a miracle!' he kept saying. 'A miracle!' For the ECK
            > > and the Mahanta were exactly what he was looking for."
            > >
            > > [ME] If this common incident was a "miracle" for this guy
            > > and for these Eckists, as well as, for Klemp then this really
            > > limits what kind of "miracles" and changes in consciousness
            > > will take place in the future for any of these people! These
            > > things happen to EVERYONE and NOT just to ECKISTS!
            > > There are TV shows that show incidents "miracles" that are
            > > really astounding rather than these mundane little Eckie
            > > stories that can't even follow a time-line! It seems that Klemp
            > > is grabbing at straws (with these stories) to keep Eckankar afloat!
            > >
            > > HK: "That is an excellent example of how the Mahanta's long arm
            > > reaches out to a true seeker. But then, likely as not, he calls
            > > on you to do your part. The path of ECK is one of giving and
            > > receiving, for that is the way of sure spiritual unfoldment.
            > > June undoubtedly learned this firsthand."
            > >
            > > [ME] I'm curious about one thing here. What makes this business
            > > man from Taiwan, who is visiting Australia, a "TRUE SEEKER?"
            > > Did this guy join Eckankar? What did the Mahanta have to do
            > > with "June" taking 10 years off from the Outer Eck Works to learn
            > > Mandarin in order to have have a short conversation with this man?
            > > Maybe all ECKists need to take TEN YEARS OFF to prepare for
            > > "miracles" to happen to them! Is this Klemp's real (hidden)
            > > message to his H.I.s? LOL!
            > >
            > > The thing with ECKANKAR, and ALL religions, is there is always
            > > a religious leader (prophet-saviour-cleric, etc.) taking credit for
            > > healings, miracles, prophecies, etc. in advance, after-the-fact,
            > > and in one way or another! They all try to make their approach
            > > to be the best, fastest, highest, and the one-and-only valid
            > > teaching from God! They have all of the answers and all of
            > > the miracles while everyone else, the non-members, are lost
            > > and condemned to a Hell of some sort, unless, "seekers" join
            > > their specific group of believers. However, the mind's imagination
            > > will mock-up what it focuses upon and desires, sometimes/
            > > usually subtly, through various levels of conscious, subconscious,
            > > and unconsciousness workings of mental energy.
            > >
            > > The sad thing for ECKists is: That they can't see that Eckankar
            > > is similar to ALL other religions; They aren't aware of their
            > > roots (Radhasoami and Ruhani Satsang); ECKists aren't able to
            > > see that Klemp has nothing of spiritual substance to offer them!
            > > This H.I. LETTER is just a pep talk to inspire H.I.s to get out there
            > > and spend their time and money recruiting more members and
            > > along the way they might experience the same "miracles" that
            > > other people experience throughout life! Another thing is...
            > > It seems that the More Clueless ECKists and the Less Spiritually
            > > Free ECKists are the ones that are the Long-Time (30 year plus)
            > > "Higher" ones when others have achieved Self-Mastery and
            > > Spiritual Freedom in fewer years and in NO YEARS as an ECKist!
            > >
            > > Prometheus
            > >
            >
          • mishmisha9
            Hi, All! Just some thoughts about conformity and how it relates in eckankar in particular. Prometheus wrote: It s amazing that Eckists think that they are
            Message 5 of 9 , Jul 18, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi, All!

              Just some thoughts about conformity and how it relates in
              eckankar in particular.

              Prometheus wrote:
              "It's amazing that Eckists think that they are non-conformists
              when they have just become conformists of a different sort."

              Whenever anyone joins a religious group or other org, one is
              agreeing to accept the group think, and in essence one is
              surrendering one's individual critical thinking. Joining up and
              agreeing to do spiritual exercises, Satsang classes, vahana work, etc.
              are all conformist acts. A chela might think this leads to achieving
              spiritual freedom and enlightenment, but it seems to me that this
              lack of original "think" is just playing around--agreeing to be a
              follower and allowing the "herd mentality" con game to work.

              Of course, the initiations are the "report card" that shows how well
              one is doing in eckankar, and from the need to achieve those initiations,
              one feels competitive with other chelas. How many eckists are there
              that can honestly state that it doesn't bother them when another chela
              moves ahead of them in initiation level? Doesn't it make one question
              one's spiritual efforts when an initiation is not forth-coming, but yet
              one sees another possibly not so hard-working or seemingly not so
              spiritually tuned in chela, getting ahead on that initiation ladder? It has
              to make one wonder what the heck is going on, doesn't it???

              Of course, there is all that hogwash about the inner vs the outer that
              "explains" away all of these outer discrepancies! Always, the excuses,
              cover-ups, now you see and now you don't explanations for those who
              really want to believe in this bogus, scammy belief system called
              eckankar! Where can the honest, whole truth be found? Well, if one
              can believe one's imagination as being such, I guess that is what
              eckists have to rely on in the final analysis! It's all imaginary! LOL!

              It all falls back on the need to belong to something, or to take up
              causes, ect. Most people want to belong and hang on to something--
              becoming followers I guess! And that is why it is so easy to fall for
              religious scams and other sorts of orgs and group thinking!

              Beware of preachers (like Klemp and company) and other "experts"
              who like to stand on soap boxes! LOL!

              Mish

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
              "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
              >
              > HK: "Later, WHEN the SERVICE was OVER and MOST PEOPLE
              > WERE GONE from the ECK CENTER, a car pulled into a PARKING
              > SPOT right out front... He HAD ONLY STOPPED in front of the
              > ECK center because he was looking for a PARKING SPOT. The
              > only open one was right at the center's front door... 'This is a
              > miracle!' he kept saying. 'A miracle!'... That is an excellent
              > example of how the Mahanta's LONG ARM reaches out to a
              > TRUE [Parking Spot] SEEKER. But then, likely as not, he calls
              > on you to do your part [Move Your Car]. The path of ECK is
              > one of GIVING [Until It Hurts] and RECEIVING [Imagined Results
              > and Fake Initiations], for that is the way of SURE spiritual
              > unfoldment" [As Long As You're Membership Is Current $$$].
              >
              > On another note-
              > Hi Mish, I too still have some guilt for having brought people
              > into Eckankar. I know of a few current H.I.s that I personally
              > influenced to join. This is just one of the many reasons why this
              > ESA site still exists... it's sort of an act of atonement for all of
              > those years that my focus was so narrowed and closed minded.
              > I had even become a religious fanatic as I was selling Eckankar.
              > Away from the Eckankar Center or ECK Events I was a much
              > happier person, but at Eckankar functions I changed and took
              > things much too seriously. Those Eck Guidelines and knowing
              > I was being watched and evaluated by my peers (and squealed
              > upon to the RESA) led to a lot of stress because I wanted (needed)
              > that higher position and next initiation. Also, with any religion
              > it seems that 'misery loves company' and the more people
              > [especially intelligent people] the religionists can bring into their
              > fold the more proof they have, for others, that their religion has
              > the highest "Truth." This is, also, why Eckankar will promote, (faster),
              > Eckists that are professionals (doctors, lawyers, architects) or those
              > who have a somewhat higher profile within the local community (it
              > also helps to have experience in public speeking). And, foreign
              > Eckists get promoted much faster than do U.S. Eckists! Therefore,
              > success (initiation & position) in Eckankar is definitely tied into the
              > Vahana (missionary) effort to bring in paying members. When one
              > looks at Eckankar with some scrutiny via critical thinking one can
              > see that Eckankar makes a lot of promises (like all religions do)
              > and then lets it's chelas fill-in the blanks with their imaginations,
              > except, one has to follow the rules & dogma (like with other religions)
              > and become conformists! It's amazing that Eckists think that they
              > are non-conformists when they have just become conformists of
              > a different sort. How can Eckists really claim that Eckankar is an
              > Individual "Path" to God when it is neither Individual or a path to
              > "God!" Eckankar is just more Religious Delusion and Myth like the
              > Older Religions that Eckists gave up!
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
              >
              >
              > mish wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > The Secret Responsibilities of H.I.s--Be a Vahana! LOL!
              > >
              > > Obviously, Klemp is giving tips on how H.I.s can more
              > > successfully achieve their vahana duties: learn how to
              > > communicate with those people who speak a different language;
              > > mingle with people of other religions and find a path to lead
              > > them out the backdoor into the eck; and finally, look for street
              > > kids as they are very vulnerable and perhaps easily manipulated.
              > >
              > > You know I'd be interested in knowing how many children of
              > > eckists actually remain eckists as adults? It doesn't seem that
              > > the eck youth groups are as large as the adults--it would seem
              > > there would be more? Of course, Harold's daughter ditched
              > > eckankar--that is rather amazing in itself!!
              > >
              > > Well, these three embellished stories do show those lower
              > > initiates what they can look forward to when they finally achieve
              > > H.I. status--it's all about recruitment! It's nothing about
              > > being more spiritually enlightened--it's all about H.I.s being
              > > elevated up to BIG recruiter status, nothing more! ! LOL!
              > >
              > > On another note, though, it is rather sad when one finally
              > > realizes how duped one has been, and then add the guilt trip of
              > > having duped others by dutifully trying to recruit others into
              > > the org! It does bother me that I handed out those little eck
              > > books, Ancient Wisdom for Today, to so many people. I don't
              > > mind that I was foolish--I'm only sorry I tried to mislead others.
              > > Saying that eckankar is no worse than any other religion, or
              > > that one can take away something of value from the teachings,
              > > just doesn't excuse my behavior or responsibility in fooling
              > > others through dumb vahana work. To me, putting value on
              > > the eck experience this way is just an attempt at protecting ego.
              > > Personally, I feel better for recognizing the guilt I have for
              > > participating in the vahana activities.
              > >
              > > Mish
              > >
              > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
              > > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > The H.I. Letter, June 2007 (Front Page Article)
              > > > by Harold Klemp
              > > >
              > > > #1
              > > >
              > > > HK: "Dear Brothers of the Leaf,
              > > >
              > > > The Mahanta REACHES OUT FOR SEEKERS in surprising
              > > > ways. A CASE IN POINT is the Story Told by a Higher
              > > > Initiate, whom WE WILL CALL MARY, who is in AUSTRALIA."
              > > >
              > > > [ME] Whom "We" will call Mary? Who's "we?" Why not say,
              > > > Whom "I" will call Mary? Is this a Freudian slip showing
              > > > that Klemp is, also, a Paranoid Schizophrenic and a
              > > > narcissist?! I think so! Also, as you read this "story" look
              > > > for and compare: Who did what; Why it was done; How
              > > > many people did it affect; in What way?
              > > >
              > > > HK: "Mary has a friend, June (a pseudonym), who is an ECK
              > > > initiate. June had been an initiate Quite A FEW YEARS, UNTIL
              > > > ABOUT TEN YEARS AGO, when she decided to STEP BACK
              > > > from the OUTER WORKS of ECK. She did so BECAUSE SHE FELT
              > > > UNWORTHY and UNABLE to reach what she felt were THE
              > > > REQUIREMENTS NEEDED as an INITIATE in ECK. Yet she kept
              > > > up with the Spiritual Exercises of ECK and inner contact with
              > > > the Master."
              > > >
              > > > [ME] So, "June" (probably an H.I.) stepped back and took a
              > > > rest about ten years ago (1997). It seems that June couldn't
              > > > fulfill the Eck Leadership requirements for H.I.s which includes
              > > > participating in and planning intros, taking a leadership role,
              > > > having the required trainings, becoming a Cleric (first) and
              > > > having to do the EWS, and being a spokesperson (locally) for
              > > > Eckankar. Many people have the fear of public speaking. Many
              > > > of these H.I.s, in the past, worked in the background until
              > > > Klemp implemented the restrictions in order to "slow down"
              > > > the Eck Initiations to prevent too many more reaching the
              > > > limits of the 7th!
              > > >
              > > > HK: "During this ten-year sabbatical from the outer ECK works,
              > > > June decided to learn Mandarin Chinese. She is Chinese."
              > > >
              > > > [ME] Okay, NOW Klemp is saying that "JUNE," also, took TEN
              > > > YEARS OFF (ten-year sabbatical) starting about "ten years ago."
              > > > The thing that smells, here, is that Eckists are only permitted
              > > > to officially take a FIVE-YEAR REST PERIOD (sabbatical). Does
              > > > this mean that German-American H.I.s can take a TEN YEAR
              > > > SABBATICAL from the "outer ECK works" to learn GERMAN?
              > > > It seems so! However, will they also lose initiations? I know
              > > > that they lose the time-in-grade for that next promotion.
              > > > Except, Eckists in countries outside of the U.S. do get promoted
              > > > faster!
              > > >
              > > > HK: "Fast-forward now to several years ago, when she came
              > > > back to the outer ECK works and resumed the ECK Satsang
              > > > classes. One day Mary called her. Would June like to give a
              > > > short talk at the ECK Worship Service on how it was when she
              > > > left the outer study and how it is now? June readily agreed."
              > > >
              > > > [ME] Isn't Klemp's Time-Line kind of screwed up?! HK states
              > > > that "June" stepped back from the outer Eck works 10 years ago,
              > > > and took a 10 year rest (sabbatical). Now, Klemp wants us to
              > > > "fast-forward" to "several years ago!" Maybe we should REWIND
              > > > to "several years ago!" Except, this doesn't make sense either
              > > > if about 10 years ago, 1997, she took a 10 year rest to 2007.
              > > > So, how could "JUNE" come "back to the outer ECK works"
              > > > several (4-5?) years ago in 2002?! Klemp doesn't even have
              > > > the awareness to keep his "facts" accurate in his embellished
              > > > stories! Also, what was it, originally, that made "June" feel
              > > > "UNWORTHY and UNABLE to REACH what she felt were the
              > > > REQUIREMENTS NEEDED as an initiate in ECK?" Why did this
              > > > change? Did she have more confidence or find some additional
              > > > identity or self-knowledge through the process of learning a
              > > > new language? Klemp seems to skip over these details, and
              > > > lacks the insight to give clarity for this.
              > > >
              > > > HK: "Later, when the service was over and most people were
              > > > gone from the ECK center, a car pulled into a parking spot right
              > > > out front. An Asian man climbed out and then stood looking
              > > > in at the ECK-center door." 'Would you like to come in and look
              > > > around?' Mary asked. Mary had a feeling that he had a hard time
              > > > understanding English, so she called June over. June addressed
              > > > him in Mandarin. Soon they were engaged in a lively conversation."
              > > >
              > > > [ME] Interesting! Klemp states that (H.I.) "Mary Had a Feeling."
              > > > I thought that "feelings" and "intuition," for Eckists, were of a
              > > > negative and lower Astral experience or focus!
              > > >
              > > > HK: "Later, June told Mary and other ECK initiates his story.
              > > > The Man had never heard of ECKANKAR before. He was
              > > > on a short vacation from Taiwan and had been looking for
              > > > the marketplace. He had only stopped in front of the ECK
              > > > center because he was looking for a parking spot. The only
              > > > open one was right at the center's front door.
              > > >
              > > > 'This is a miracle!' he kept saying. 'A miracle!' For the ECK
              > > > and the Mahanta were exactly what he was looking for."
              > > >
              > > > [ME] If this common incident was a "miracle" for this guy
              > > > and for these Eckists, as well as, for Klemp then this really
              > > > limits what kind of "miracles" and changes in consciousness
              > > > will take place in the future for any of these people! These
              > > > things happen to EVERYONE and NOT just to ECKISTS!
              > > > There are TV shows that show incidents "miracles" that are
              > > > really astounding rather than these mundane little Eckie
              > > > stories that can't even follow a time-line! It seems that Klemp
              > > > is grabbing at straws (with these stories) to keep Eckankar afloat!
              > > >
              > > > HK: "That is an excellent example of how the Mahanta's long arm
              > > > reaches out to a true seeker. But then, likely as not, he calls
              > > > on you to do your part. The path of ECK is one of giving and
              > > > receiving, for that is the way of sure spiritual unfoldment.
              > > > June undoubtedly learned this firsthand."
              > > >
              > > > [ME] I'm curious about one thing here. What makes this business
              > > > man from Taiwan, who is visiting Australia, a "TRUE SEEKER?"
              > > > Did this guy join Eckankar? What did the Mahanta have to do
              > > > with "June" taking 10 years off from the Outer Eck Works to learn
              > > > Mandarin in order to have have a short conversation with this man?
              > > > Maybe all ECKists need to take TEN YEARS OFF to prepare for
              > > > "miracles" to happen to them! Is this Klemp's real (hidden)
              > > > message to his H.I.s? LOL!
              > > >
              > > > The thing with ECKANKAR, and ALL religions, is there is always
              > > > a religious leader (prophet-saviour-cleric, etc.) taking credit for
              > > > healings, miracles, prophecies, etc. in advance, after-the-fact,
              > > > and in one way or another! They all try to make their approach
              > > > to be the best, fastest, highest, and the one-and-only valid
              > > > teaching from God! They have all of the answers and all of
              > > > the miracles while everyone else, the non-members, are lost
              > > > and condemned to a Hell of some sort, unless, "seekers" join
              > > > their specific group of believers. However, the mind's imagination
              > > > will mock-up what it focuses upon and desires, sometimes/
              > > > usually subtly, through various levels of conscious, subconscious,
              > > > and unconsciousness workings of mental energy.
              > > >
              > > > The sad thing for ECKists is: That they can't see that Eckankar
              > > > is similar to ALL other religions; They aren't aware of their
              > > > roots (Radhasoami and Ruhani Satsang); ECKists aren't able to
              > > > see that Klemp has nothing of spiritual substance to offer them!
              > > > This H.I. LETTER is just a pep talk to inspire H.I.s to get out there
              > > > and spend their time and money recruiting more members and
              > > > along the way they might experience the same "miracles" that
              > > > other people experience throughout life! Another thing is...
              > > > It seems that the More Clueless ECKists and the Less Spiritually
              > > > Free ECKists are the ones that are the Long-Time (30 year plus)
              > > > "Higher" ones when others have achieved Self-Mastery and
              > > > Spiritual Freedom in fewer years and in NO YEARS as an ECKist!
              > > >
              > > > Prometheus
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