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Re: A Repost: How Many Narcissists Does It Take . . .

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  • marlaprendergast
    Yes, I would say most of those traits do apply. However, they came out slowly, insidiously, over a period of time. It was not apparent to me at the beginning,
    Message 1 of 6 , Jul 3, 2007
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      Yes, I would say most of those traits do apply. However, they came
      out slowly, insidiously, over a period of time. It was not apparent
      to me at the beginning, obviously or I never would have got involved.

      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
      <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
      >
      > I thought that I'd bring this back to the front page and
      > ask Marla if she thinks her "ex" (Eck 6th Initiate) was
      > also a narcissist? Were there signs that he might
      > be when looking at the following indicators?
      >
      > BTW-Thanks Mish for the info!
      >
      >
      > Hi Everyone!
      > >
      > > This is a repost of one of Mish's, from Feb. 21, 2007,
      > > Message #2321. I thought it was worthy of a re-read.
      > > Here's Mish's post:
      > >
      > > How many narcissists does it take to change a light bulb?
      >
      > > (a) Just one -- but he has to wait for the whole world to revolve
      > > around him.
      >
      > > (b) None at all -- he hires menials for work that's beneath him.
      > >
      > > Hi, All!
      > >
      > > I was interested in looking up some info on Narcissistic
      Personality
      > > Disorder (NPD) and found some good information. It seems that
      most,
      > > if not all, of the identifiable traits can be applied to cult
      scam artists
      > > like Twitchell and Klemp?
      > >
      > > Here's a link to one discussion site on NPD that posted the above
      > > narcissist joke and details the common traits of NPD:
      >
      > http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/traits.html
      >
      > > "The most telling thing that narcissists do is contradict
      themselves.
      > > They will do this virtually in the same sentence, without
      stopping
      > > to take a breath. . . . They will contradict FACTS. They will
      lie to
      > > you about things that you did together. They will misquote you to
      > > yourself. If you disagree with them, they'll say you're lying,
      making
      > > stuff up, or are crazy." In short, a narcissist can confuse you
      and it
      > > appears that this is exactly what scam artists do.
      >
      > In brief, here are some of the other listed traits for NPD:
      >
      > 1. Casual Dishonesty and Cruelty to Other People
      >
      > 2. Lacks a Mature Conscience
      >
      > 3. Envious and Competitive
      >
      > 4. Contemptuous of others
      >
      > 5. Extremely Sensitive to Personal Criticism/Extremely Critical
      > of Other People
      >
      > 6. Hostile and Ferocious in Reaction/Generally Passive and Lacking
      > in Initiative
      >
      > 7. Naive and Vulnerable, Pathetic Really, No Matter How Arrogant
      > and Forceful their Words or Demeanor
      >
      > 8. Grandiose
      >
      > 9. Little Sense of Humor
      >
      > 10. Weird Sense of Time
      >
      > 11. Totally and Inflexibly Authoritarian
      >
      > 12. Strange Work Habits
      >
      > 13. Feels Entitled
      >
      > 14. Stingy, Mean, Frugal to the Point of Eccentricity
      >
      > 15. Unusual Eating Habits or Appetites
      >
      > 16. Secretive or Perhaps Unusually Reserved or Very Jealous of
      > their Privacy.
      >
      > > There are some other traits I didn't list here, but each is
      explained
      > > in easy to understand lay terms. The author states that, "Almost
      > > everyone has some narcissistic traits, but being conceited,
      > > argumentative, or selfish sometimes (or even all the time)
      doesn't
      > > amount to a personality disorder. Narcissistic Personality
      Disorder is
      > > a long-term pattern of abnormal thinking, feeling, and behavior
      in
      > > many different situations. . . . Narcissism is a personality
      disorder and
      > > that means that narcissists'personalities aren't organized in a
      way that
      > > makes sense to most people, . . . . Interaction with narcissists
      is
      > > confusing, even bewildering--the reasons for what they do are
      not the
      > > same as normal reasons."
      > >
      > > Logically and objectively, one can see how a person posing as the
      > > mahanta, "the highest state of consciousness known to the
      chronicles of
      > > mankind" and "God's elect" is an individual who is suffering from
      > > Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Too bad so many "normal"
      individuals
      > > are mislead by such unbalanced and scheming individuals. I can
      well
      > > understand the narcissistic trait of secrecy because the Truth
      of who they
      > > really are just doesn't match their grandiose view of
      themselves. The NPD
      > > sufferer needs followers and people to control in order to prove
      their lies
      > > are acceptable and working for them.
      > >
      > > Hey, does anyone know what disorder Klemp was diagnosed as
      > > suffering from while in the mental institution? Inquiring minds
      would
      > > like to know! : )
      > >
      > > Mish
      >
    • mishmisha9
      Hi, Marla and All! I had posted the article link on narcissism because I could see how religious leaders like Klemp were displaying narcissistic
      Message 2 of 6 , Jul 4, 2007
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        Hi, Marla and All!

        I had posted the article link on narcissism because I could see how
        religious leaders like Klemp were displaying narcissistic characteristics,
        a seemingly common personality trait of some people who are leaders,
        especially those who want to be deceitful and manipulative of others.

        I am not surprised that you say your ex boyfriend seemed to have most
        of the traits listed in the article. Also, I am not surprised that his controll
        was not apparent to you at first either. This is generally the way it is with
        manipulators--they hook you and then reel you in slowly, so that you
        hardly realize what their motivation or what their true personality is, or
        that you ahve fallen under their domination.

        A narcissicist is all about control. His power is in controlling others, and
        the more he can effect that way, the more he likes it. Putting someone down
        on a regular basis eats at one's self esteem to the point that a narcissist can
        trick his victim into thinking that they are the ones with the problems while in
        truth, it is the narcissist who is the problem! I think you did very well
        to get away from this abuser.

        A big red flag for me is when someone confuses me or makes me feel that
        my thinking is wrong or flawed. I have to stop and really look at this, to
        see if I'm being manipulated.

        I'm not sure why your ex boyfriend wanted you to have an ESA session, and
        even though you did enjoy it and didn't seem to find it harmful to you, the
        fact that he wanted you to go to the ESA tells me that as an eckist he wanted
        re-enforcement to support all the stuff he was doing and doing to you. He
        expected that the ESA would see his behaviors quite eck permissive. That is
        what I think he was doing??? Another tool to manipulate and control he used
        under the guise of spiritual enlightenment, as he worked on keeping you
        under his domination.

        In my message about victim consciousness, I was directing readers
        to check out thrivenet.com as that site has many good tips and techniques on
        finding the positive things in one's life, including taking the negatives and turning
        them into positives in order to thrive and grow. A victim always has a choice in
        the way one learns from life's hard lessons. Sometimes people can get stuck in
        one place. Obviously, you moved on rather quickly, but the tools found on this
        site are worth a look, IMO. And I think that they would help anyone who has to
        deal with a narcissist up close and personal--and there are plenty to be found,
        narcissists, that is!

        Also, I want to add that while I can see many narcissists being attracted to
        religious/spiritual groups, I do not believe that all eckists are narcissists.
        However, eckists might through the eck teachings take on narcissistic
        characteristics. In general, I think all of us on this planet are much summed up
        in the quote from Jed McKenna that Liz likes to often use:

        "We are wonderful spiritual beings having a human experience. ?"

        It is not necessary or needed to follow a group think or take on religious
        dogma or mantras. Eckists, like the rest of us, are their own spiritual guides,
        and are only being slowed down in the quest for spiritual growth and
        understanding when they allow a deceiver like Harold Klemp to step in their
        way. That is why I like these discussions about the deceit and lies
        about eckankar--sharing the real truth and perspectives regarding the fake
        eck religion!

        Mish

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "marlaprendergast"
        <kws11@...> wrote:
        >
        > Yes, I would say most of those traits do apply. However, they came
        > out slowly, insidiously, over a period of time. It was not apparent
        > to me at the beginning, obviously or I never would have got involved.
        >
        > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
        > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
        > >
        > > I thought that I'd bring this back to the front page and
        > > ask Marla if she thinks her "ex" (Eck 6th Initiate) was
        > > also a narcissist? Were there signs that he might
        > > be when looking at the following indicators?
        > >
        > > BTW-Thanks Mish for the info!
        > >
        > >
        > > Hi Everyone!
        > > >
        > > > This is a repost of one of Mish's, from Feb. 21, 2007,
        > > > Message #2321. I thought it was worthy of a re-read.
        > > > Here's Mish's post:
        > > >
        > > > How many narcissists does it take to change a light bulb?
        > >
        > > > (a) Just one -- but he has to wait for the whole world to revolve
        > > > around him.
        > >
        > > > (b) None at all -- he hires menials for work that's beneath him.
        > > >
        > > > Hi, All!
        > > >
        > > > I was interested in looking up some info on Narcissistic
        > Personality
        > > > Disorder (NPD) and found some good information. It seems that
        > most,
        > > > if not all, of the identifiable traits can be applied to cult
        > scam artists
        > > > like Twitchell and Klemp?
        > > >
        > > > Here's a link to one discussion site on NPD that posted the above
        > > > narcissist joke and details the common traits of NPD:
        > >
        > > http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/traits.html
        > >
        > > > "The most telling thing that narcissists do is contradict
        > themselves.
        > > > They will do this virtually in the same sentence, without
        > stopping
        > > > to take a breath. . . . They will contradict FACTS. They will
        > lie to
        > > > you about things that you did together. They will misquote you to
        > > > yourself. If you disagree with them, they'll say you're lying,
        > making
        > > > stuff up, or are crazy." In short, a narcissist can confuse you
        > and it
        > > > appears that this is exactly what scam artists do.
        > >
        > > In brief, here are some of the other listed traits for NPD:
        > >
        > > 1. Casual Dishonesty and Cruelty to Other People
        > >
        > > 2. Lacks a Mature Conscience
        > >
        > > 3. Envious and Competitive
        > >
        > > 4. Contemptuous of others
        > >
        > > 5. Extremely Sensitive to Personal Criticism/Extremely Critical
        > > of Other People
        > >
        > > 6. Hostile and Ferocious in Reaction/Generally Passive and Lacking
        > > in Initiative
        > >
        > > 7. Naive and Vulnerable, Pathetic Really, No Matter How Arrogant
        > > and Forceful their Words or Demeanor
        > >
        > > 8. Grandiose
        > >
        > > 9. Little Sense of Humor
        > >
        > > 10. Weird Sense of Time
        > >
        > > 11. Totally and Inflexibly Authoritarian
        > >
        > > 12. Strange Work Habits
        > >
        > > 13. Feels Entitled
        > >
        > > 14. Stingy, Mean, Frugal to the Point of Eccentricity
        > >
        > > 15. Unusual Eating Habits or Appetites
        > >
        > > 16. Secretive or Perhaps Unusually Reserved or Very Jealous of
        > > their Privacy.
        > >
        > > > There are some other traits I didn't list here, but each is
        > explained
        > > > in easy to understand lay terms. The author states that, "Almost
        > > > everyone has some narcissistic traits, but being conceited,
        > > > argumentative, or selfish sometimes (or even all the time)
        > doesn't
        > > > amount to a personality disorder. Narcissistic Personality
        > Disorder is
        > > > a long-term pattern of abnormal thinking, feeling, and behavior
        > in
        > > > many different situations. . . . Narcissism is a personality
        > disorder and
        > > > that means that narcissists'personalities aren't organized in a
        > way that
        > > > makes sense to most people, . . . . Interaction with narcissists
        > is
        > > > confusing, even bewildering--the reasons for what they do are
        > not the
        > > > same as normal reasons."
        > > >
        > > > Logically and objectively, one can see how a person posing as the
        > > > mahanta, "the highest state of consciousness known to the
        > chronicles of
        > > > mankind" and "God's elect" is an individual who is suffering from
        > > > Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Too bad so many "normal"
        > individuals
        > > > are mislead by such unbalanced and scheming individuals. I can
        > well
        > > > understand the narcissistic trait of secrecy because the Truth
        > of who they
        > > > really are just doesn't match their grandiose view of
        > themselves. The NPD
        > > > sufferer needs followers and people to control in order to prove
        > their lies
        > > > are acceptable and working for them.
        > > >
        > > > Hey, does anyone know what disorder Klemp was diagnosed as
        > > > suffering from while in the mental institution? Inquiring minds
        > would
        > > > like to know! : )
        > > >
        > > > Mish
        > >
        >
      • prometheus_973
        Hi All, Good post Mish! Of course with Eckankar the chief narcissist was Twitchell. In hindsight I can see how some of those I encountered, as an Eck
        Message 3 of 6 , Jul 4, 2007
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          Hi All,
          Good post Mish! Of course with Eckankar the chief
          narcissist was Twitchell. In hindsight I can see how
          some of those I encountered, as an Eck "explorer"
          and "settler," were narcissists... including at least one
          RESA! At the time I just thought that they were control
          freaks of/for the Mahanta or "perfectionists" of some
          sort!

          Actually, if I had read or studied the NPD indicators while
          an Eckist... it would have explained the "why" of things
          better and I wouldn't have had some of those people upon
          a pedestal! I would, also, have had a better idea of who I
          was as Soul rather than following the instructions of
          someone claiming to be above me via initiation or thru
          their embellished Seminar stories, etc.. I even made the
          mistake of having certain Former H.I.s upon a pedestal,
          of sorts, at one time or another as well! I guarantee that
          won't ever happen again! LOL!

          The more and more one hears them (narcissists) talk and
          talk and talk (always needing to get in the last word) and
          the more discussions one enters into with them the easier
          they are to spot. They are never wrong and are pseudo-
          experts just like Twit and Klemp and other sickos like
          them. I can now understand why they seemed paranoid
          at times too. It's one of the by-products of this disorder.

          Klemp is a real sicko! He uses the INTERNET subject because
          he wants to stop Eckists from reading, exploring, researching,
          and thinking on their own, and from finding anti-Eckankar
          sites like this one. HK gives one message to Lower Initiates
          (fear) and another message (moderation) to High Initiates!
          Then again, these narcissists are master manipulators and
          liars because they've done this all their lives. In fact they
          distort the Truth because they are weak! Their ego feels the
          need to over protect them and, thus, over compensates!
          These narcissits have always gotten their way as children
          because they did what it took to do so! They would kick and
          scream, or pout, stop speaking, or say they hated their parents,
          or even threaten to kill themselves, and any number of other
          things when they didn't get their way. Sometimes they will just
          wear their opponents down with verbal pleas or arguments
          until they win out!

          Anyway, Mish, thanks again for your comments and insights.
          It was interesting for me to revisit the "why" behind some of
          those negative/offensive and bullying personalities that really
          weren't "spiritual" or "higher" in consciousness after all!

          Prometheus


          mish wrote:
          >
          >
          > Hi, Marla and All!
          >
          > I had posted the article link on narcissism because I could see how
          > religious leaders like Klemp were displaying narcissistic characteristics,
          > a seemingly common personality trait of some people who are leaders,
          > especially those who want to be deceitful and manipulative of others.
          >
          > I am not surprised that you say your ex boyfriend seemed to have most
          > of the traits listed in the article. Also, I am not surprised that his controll
          > was not apparent to you at first either. This is generally the way it is with
          > manipulators--they hook you and then reel you in slowly, so that you
          > hardly realize what their motivation or what their true personality is, or
          > that you ahve fallen under their domination.
          >
          > A narcissicist is all about control. His power is in controlling others, and
          > the more he can effect that way, the more he likes it. Putting someone down
          > on a regular basis eats at one's self esteem to the point that a narcissist can
          > trick his victim into thinking that they are the ones with the problems while in
          > truth, it is the narcissist who is the problem! I think you did very well
          > to get away from this abuser.
          >
          > A big red flag for me is when someone confuses me or makes me feel that
          > my thinking is wrong or flawed. I have to stop and really look at this, to
          > see if I'm being manipulated.
          >
          > I'm not sure why your ex boyfriend wanted you to have an ESA session, and
          > even though you did enjoy it and didn't seem to find it harmful to you, the
          > fact that he wanted you to go to the ESA tells me that as an eckist he wanted
          > re-enforcement to support all the stuff he was doing and doing to you. He
          > expected that the ESA would see his behaviors quite eck permissive. That is
          > what I think he was doing??? Another tool to manipulate and control he used
          > under the guise of spiritual enlightenment, as he worked on keeping you
          > under his domination.
          >
          > In my message about victim consciousness, I was directing readers
          > to check out thrivenet.com as that site has many good tips and techniques on
          > finding the positive things in one's life, including taking the negatives and turning
          > them into positives in order to thrive and grow. A victim always has a choice in
          > the way one learns from life's hard lessons. Sometimes people can get stuck in
          > one place. Obviously, you moved on rather quickly, but the tools found on this
          > site are worth a look, IMO. And I think that they would help anyone who has to
          > deal with a narcissist up close and personal--and there are plenty to be found,
          > narcissists, that is!
          >
          > Also, I want to add that while I can see many narcissists being attracted to
          > religious/spiritual groups, I do not believe that all eckists are narcissists.
          > However, eckists might through the eck teachings take on narcissistic
          > characteristics. In general, I think all of us on this planet are much summed up
          > in the quote from Jed McKenna that Liz likes to often use:
          >
          > "We are wonderful spiritual beings having a human experience. ?"
          >
          > It is not necessary or needed to follow a group think or take on religious
          > dogma or mantras. Eckists, like the rest of us, are their own spiritual guides,
          > and are only being slowed down in the quest for spiritual growth and
          > understanding when they allow a deceiver like Harold Klemp to step in their
          > way. That is why I like these discussions about the deceit and lies
          > about eckankar--sharing the real truth and perspectives regarding the fake
          > eck religion!
          >
          > Mish
          >
          > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "marlaprendergast"
          > <kws11@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Yes, I would say most of those traits do apply. However, they came
          > > out slowly, insidiously, over a period of time. It was not apparent
          > > to me at the beginning, obviously or I never would have got involved.
          > >
          > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
          > > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > I thought that I'd bring this back to the front page and
          > > > ask Marla if she thinks her "ex" (Eck 6th Initiate) was
          > > > also a narcissist? Were there signs that he might
          > > > be when looking at the following indicators?
          > > >
          > > > BTW-Thanks Mish for the info!
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Hi Everyone!
          > > > >
          > > > > This is a repost of one of Mish's, from Feb. 21, 2007,
          > > > > Message #2321. I thought it was worthy of a re-read.
          > > > > Here's Mish's post:
          > > > >
          > > > > How many narcissists does it take to change a light bulb?
          > > >
          > > > > (a) Just one -- but he has to wait for the whole world to revolve
          > > > > around him.
          > > >
          > > > > (b) None at all -- he hires menials for work that's beneath him.
          > > > >
          > > > > Hi, All!
          > > > >
          > > > > I was interested in looking up some info on Narcissistic
          > > Personality
          > > > > Disorder (NPD) and found some good information. It seems that
          > > most,
          > > > > if not all, of the identifiable traits can be applied to cult
          > > scam artists
          > > > > like Twitchell and Klemp?
          > > > >
          > > > > Here's a link to one discussion site on NPD that posted the above
          > > > > narcissist joke and details the common traits of NPD:
          > > >
          > > > http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/traits.html
          > > >
          > > > > "The most telling thing that narcissists do is contradict
          > > themselves.
          > > > > They will do this virtually in the same sentence, without
          > > stopping
          > > > > to take a breath. . . . They will contradict FACTS. They will
          > > lie to
          > > > > you about things that you did together. They will misquote you to
          > > > > yourself. If you disagree with them, they'll say you're lying,
          > > making
          > > > > stuff up, or are crazy." In short, a narcissist can confuse you
          > > and it
          > > > > appears that this is exactly what scam artists do.
          > > >
          > > > In brief, here are some of the other listed traits for NPD:
          > > >
          > > > 1. Casual Dishonesty and Cruelty to Other People
          > > >
          > > > 2. Lacks a Mature Conscience
          > > >
          > > > 3. Envious and Competitive
          > > >
          > > > 4. Contemptuous of others
          > > >
          > > > 5. Extremely Sensitive to Personal Criticism/Extremely Critical
          > > > of Other People
          > > >
          > > > 6. Hostile and Ferocious in Reaction/Generally Passive and Lacking
          > > > in Initiative
          > > >
          > > > 7. Naive and Vulnerable, Pathetic Really, No Matter How Arrogant
          > > > and Forceful their Words or Demeanor
          > > >
          > > > 8. Grandiose
          > > >
          > > > 9. Little Sense of Humor
          > > >
          > > > 10. Weird Sense of Time
          > > >
          > > > 11. Totally and Inflexibly Authoritarian
          > > >
          > > > 12. Strange Work Habits
          > > >
          > > > 13. Feels Entitled
          > > >
          > > > 14. Stingy, Mean, Frugal to the Point of Eccentricity
          > > >
          > > > 15. Unusual Eating Habits or Appetites
          > > >
          > > > 16. Secretive or Perhaps Unusually Reserved or Very Jealous of
          > > > their Privacy.
          > > >
          > > > > There are some other traits I didn't list here, but each is
          > > explained
          > > > > in easy to understand lay terms. The author states that, "Almost
          > > > > everyone has some narcissistic traits, but being conceited,
          > > > > argumentative, or selfish sometimes (or even all the time)
          > > doesn't
          > > > > amount to a personality disorder. Narcissistic Personality
          > > Disorder is
          > > > > a long-term pattern of abnormal thinking, feeling, and behavior
          > > in
          > > > > many different situations. . . . Narcissism is a personality
          > > disorder and
          > > > > that means that narcissists'personalities aren't organized in a
          > > way that
          > > > > makes sense to most people, . . . . Interaction with narcissists
          > > is
          > > > > confusing, even bewildering--the reasons for what they do are
          > > not the
          > > > > same as normal reasons."
          > > > >
          > > > > Logically and objectively, one can see how a person posing as the
          > > > > mahanta, "the highest state of consciousness known to the
          > > chronicles of
          > > > > mankind" and "God's elect" is an individual who is suffering from
          > > > > Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Too bad so many "normal"
          > > individuals
          > > > > are mislead by such unbalanced and scheming individuals. I can
          > > well
          > > > > understand the narcissistic trait of secrecy because the Truth
          > > of who they
          > > > > really are just doesn't match their grandiose view of
          > > themselves. The NPD
          > > > > sufferer needs followers and people to control in order to prove
          > > their lies
          > > > > are acceptable and working for them.
          > > > >
          > > > > Hey, does anyone know what disorder Klemp was diagnosed as
          > > > > suffering from while in the mental institution? Inquiring minds
          > > would
          > > > > like to know! : )
          > > > >
          > > > > Mish
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • prometheus_973
          I have been recalling the words and actions of various people, who with closer obversation, typify the indicators of narcissistic personality disorder. There
          Message 4 of 6 , Jul 7, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            I have been recalling the words and actions of various
            people, who with closer obversation, typify the indicators
            of narcissistic personality disorder.

            There is one person, I know, who is generally disrespectful
            to most people, (he thinks he knows more than anyone) and
            is, especially, disrespectful towards women. He'll break up with
            women he's dating by using something said by her and blowing
            it all out of portion! This way she'll feel that the conflict was of
            her making and her fault and as he portrays himself as the victim.
            It's interesting that this man, also, searches out those women
            that he can manipulate, and that these women are drawn to him.
            Of course he does hold a somewhat "prestigious" professional
            job in the community and this tends to draw women to him as
            he boasts of his accomplishments. He doesn't have many "friends"
            and the ones he does have are other men that don't challenge his
            ego. On the surface he seems like a fun person, but this is on a
            superficial level. This is why people, and women especially, at first
            glance are attracted to him. In truth he's a liar, self-involved,
            unethical, envious, fearful, and is disrespectful to even his higher
            Self. He is a lost Soul. If he wasn't so arrogant and mean spirited
            he could be pitied... except that's too good for him when viewing
            the harm that he has done others and continues to do!

            Anyway, after discovering the true nature of this individual I
            no longer have contact with him, although, I kept hoping that
            he'd change. I phoned him recently and discovered that life
            hasn't given him the lessons he needs for him to take a closer
            look at himself nor his destructive actions. Therefore, I have
            washed my hands of him... he can never be trusted to be more
            than he is. It's still a mystery to me as to when, why, and how
            he first changed and became a narrcissist. Be that as it is... a
            person can only change (for the better) when they can admit
            that they need to change. Until then... the best I can do is to
            stay away from him and warn others when possible. Perhaps,
            this too, is what Marla is doing by coming to the anti-Eckankar
            sites and sharing some details of her experience with her
            ex-boyfriend (An ECK 6th Initiate).

            Prometheus



            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
            <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi All,
            > Good post Mish! Of course with Eckankar the chief
            > narcissist was Twitchell. In hindsight I can see how
            > some of those I encountered, as an Eck "explorer"
            > and "settler," were narcissists... including at least one
            > RESA! At the time I just thought that they were control
            > freaks of/for the Mahanta or "perfectionists" of some
            > sort!
            >
            > Actually, if I had read or studied the NPD indicators while
            > an Eckist... it would have explained the "why" of things
            > better and I wouldn't have had some of those people upon
            > a pedestal! I would, also, have had a better idea of who I
            > was as Soul rather than following the instructions of
            > someone claiming to be above me via initiation or thru
            > their embellished Seminar stories, etc.. I even made the
            > mistake of having certain Former H.I.s upon a pedestal,
            > of sorts, at one time or another as well! I guarantee that
            > won't ever happen again! LOL!
            >
            > The more and more one hears them (narcissists) talk and
            > talk and talk (always needing to get in the last word) and
            > the more discussions one enters into with them the easier
            > they are to spot. They are never wrong and are pseudo-
            > experts just like Twit and Klemp and other sickos like
            > them. I can now understand why they seemed paranoid
            > at times too. It's one of the by-products of this disorder.
            >
            > Klemp is a real sicko! He uses the INTERNET subject because
            > he wants to stop Eckists from reading, exploring, researching,
            > and thinking on their own, and from finding anti-Eckankar
            > sites like this one. HK gives one message to Lower Initiates
            > (fear) and another message (moderation) to High Initiates!
            > Then again, these narcissists are master manipulators and
            > liars because they've done this all their lives. In fact they
            > distort the Truth because they are weak! Their ego feels the
            > need to over protect them and, thus, over compensates!
            > These narcissits have always gotten their way as children
            > because they did what it took to do so! They would kick and
            > scream, or pout, stop speaking, or say they hated their parents,
            > or even threaten to kill themselves, and any number of other
            > things when they didn't get their way. Sometimes they will just
            > wear their opponents down with verbal pleas or arguments
            > until they win out!
            >
            > Anyway, Mish, thanks again for your comments and insights.
            > It was interesting for me to revisit the "why" behind some of
            > those negative/offensive and bullying personalities that really
            > weren't "spiritual" or "higher" in consciousness after all!
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            >
            > mish wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > Hi, Marla and All!
            > >
            > > I had posted the article link on narcissism because I could see how
            > > religious leaders like Klemp were displaying narcissistic characteristics,
            > > a seemingly common personality trait of some people who are leaders,
            > > especially those who want to be deceitful and manipulative of others.
            > >
            > > I am not surprised that you say your ex boyfriend seemed to have most
            > > of the traits listed in the article. Also, I am not surprised that his controll
            > > was not apparent to you at first either. This is generally the way it is with
            > > manipulators--they hook you and then reel you in slowly, so that you
            > > hardly realize what their motivation or what their true personality is, or
            > > that you ahve fallen under their domination.
            > >
            > > A narcissicist is all about control. His power is in controlling others, and
            > > the more he can effect that way, the more he likes it. Putting someone down
            > > on a regular basis eats at one's self esteem to the point that a narcissist can
            > > trick his victim into thinking that they are the ones with the problems while in
            > > truth, it is the narcissist who is the problem! I think you did very well
            > > to get away from this abuser.
            > >
            > > A big red flag for me is when someone confuses me or makes me feel that
            > > my thinking is wrong or flawed. I have to stop and really look at this, to
            > > see if I'm being manipulated.
            > >
            > > I'm not sure why your ex boyfriend wanted you to have an ESA session, and
            > > even though you did enjoy it and didn't seem to find it harmful to you, the
            > > fact that he wanted you to go to the ESA tells me that as an eckist he wanted
            > > re-enforcement to support all the stuff he was doing and doing to you. He
            > > expected that the ESA would see his behaviors quite eck permissive. That is
            > > what I think he was doing??? Another tool to manipulate and control he used
            > > under the guise of spiritual enlightenment, as he worked on keeping you
            > > under his domination.
            > >
            > > In my message about victim consciousness, I was directing readers
            > > to check out thrivenet.com as that site has many good tips and techniques on
            > > finding the positive things in one's life, including taking the negatives and turning
            > > them into positives in order to thrive and grow. A victim always has a choice in
            > > the way one learns from life's hard lessons. Sometimes people can get stuck in
            > > one place. Obviously, you moved on rather quickly, but the tools found on this
            > > site are worth a look, IMO. And I think that they would help anyone who has to
            > > deal with a narcissist up close and personal--and there are plenty to be found,
            > > narcissists, that is!
            > >
            > > Also, I want to add that while I can see many narcissists being attracted to
            > > religious/spiritual groups, I do not believe that all eckists are narcissists.
            > > However, eckists might through the eck teachings take on narcissistic
            > > characteristics. In general, I think all of us on this planet are much summed up
            > > in the quote from Jed McKenna that Liz likes to often use:
            > >
            > > "We are wonderful spiritual beings having a human experience. ?"
            > >
            > > It is not necessary or needed to follow a group think or take on religious
            > > dogma or mantras. Eckists, like the rest of us, are their own spiritual guides,
            > > and are only being slowed down in the quest for spiritual growth and
            > > understanding when they allow a deceiver like Harold Klemp to step in their
            > > way. That is why I like these discussions about the deceit and lies
            > > about eckankar--sharing the real truth and perspectives regarding the fake
            > > eck religion!
            > >
            > > Mish
            > >
            > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "marlaprendergast"
            > > <kws11@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Yes, I would say most of those traits do apply. However, they came
            > > > out slowly, insidiously, over a period of time. It was not apparent
            > > > to me at the beginning, obviously or I never would have got involved.
            > > >
            > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
            > > > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > I thought that I'd bring this back to the front page and
            > > > > ask Marla if she thinks her "ex" (Eck 6th Initiate) was
            > > > > also a narcissist? Were there signs that he might
            > > > > be when looking at the following indicators?
            > > > >
            > > > > BTW-Thanks Mish for the info!
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > Hi Everyone!
            > > > > >
            > > > > > This is a repost of one of Mish's, from Feb. 21, 2007,
            > > > > > Message #2321. I thought it was worthy of a re-read.
            > > > > > Here's Mish's post:
            > > > > >
            > > > > > How many narcissists does it take to change a light bulb?
            > > > >
            > > > > > (a) Just one -- but he has to wait for the whole world to revolve
            > > > > > around him.
            > > > >
            > > > > > (b) None at all -- he hires menials for work that's beneath him.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Hi, All!
            > > > > >
            > > > > > I was interested in looking up some info on Narcissistic
            > > > Personality
            > > > > > Disorder (NPD) and found some good information. It seems that
            > > > most,
            > > > > > if not all, of the identifiable traits can be applied to cult
            > > > scam artists
            > > > > > like Twitchell and Klemp?
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Here's a link to one discussion site on NPD that posted the above
            > > > > > narcissist joke and details the common traits of NPD:
            > > > >
            > > > > http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/traits.html
            > > > >
            > > > > > "The most telling thing that narcissists do is contradict
            > > > themselves.
            > > > > > They will do this virtually in the same sentence, without
            > > > stopping
            > > > > > to take a breath. . . . They will contradict FACTS. They will
            > > > lie to
            > > > > > you about things that you did together. They will misquote you to
            > > > > > yourself. If you disagree with them, they'll say you're lying,
            > > > making
            > > > > > stuff up, or are crazy." In short, a narcissist can confuse you
            > > > and it
            > > > > > appears that this is exactly what scam artists do.
            > > > >
            > > > > In brief, here are some of the other listed traits for NPD:
            > > > >
            > > > > 1. Casual Dishonesty and Cruelty to Other People
            > > > >
            > > > > 2. Lacks a Mature Conscience
            > > > >
            > > > > 3. Envious and Competitive
            > > > >
            > > > > 4. Contemptuous of others
            > > > >
            > > > > 5. Extremely Sensitive to Personal Criticism/Extremely Critical
            > > > > of Other People
            > > > >
            > > > > 6. Hostile and Ferocious in Reaction/Generally Passive and Lacking
            > > > > in Initiative
            > > > >
            > > > > 7. Naive and Vulnerable, Pathetic Really, No Matter How Arrogant
            > > > > and Forceful their Words or Demeanor
            > > > >
            > > > > 8. Grandiose
            > > > >
            > > > > 9. Little Sense of Humor
            > > > >
            > > > > 10. Weird Sense of Time
            > > > >
            > > > > 11. Totally and Inflexibly Authoritarian
            > > > >
            > > > > 12. Strange Work Habits
            > > > >
            > > > > 13. Feels Entitled
            > > > >
            > > > > 14. Stingy, Mean, Frugal to the Point of Eccentricity
            > > > >
            > > > > 15. Unusual Eating Habits or Appetites
            > > > >
            > > > > 16. Secretive or Perhaps Unusually Reserved or Very Jealous of
            > > > > their Privacy.
            > > > >
            > > > > > There are some other traits I didn't list here, but each is
            > > > explained
            > > > > > in easy to understand lay terms. The author states that, "Almost
            > > > > > everyone has some narcissistic traits, but being conceited,
            > > > > > argumentative, or selfish sometimes (or even all the time)
            > > > doesn't
            > > > > > amount to a personality disorder. Narcissistic Personality
            > > > Disorder is
            > > > > > a long-term pattern of abnormal thinking, feeling, and behavior
            > > > in
            > > > > > many different situations. . . . Narcissism is a personality
            > > > disorder and
            > > > > > that means that narcissists'personalities aren't organized in a
            > > > way that
            > > > > > makes sense to most people, . . . . Interaction with narcissists
            > > > is
            > > > > > confusing, even bewildering--the reasons for what they do are
            > > > not the
            > > > > > same as normal reasons."
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Logically and objectively, one can see how a person posing as the
            > > > > > mahanta, "the highest state of consciousness known to the
            > > > chronicles of
            > > > > > mankind" and "God's elect" is an individual who is suffering from
            > > > > > Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Too bad so many "normal"
            > > > individuals
            > > > > > are mislead by such unbalanced and scheming individuals. I can
            > > > well
            > > > > > understand the narcissistic trait of secrecy because the Truth
            > > > of who they
            > > > > > really are just doesn't match their grandiose view of
            > > > themselves. The NPD
            > > > > > sufferer needs followers and people to control in order to prove
            > > > their lies
            > > > > > are acceptable and working for them.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Hey, does anyone know what disorder Klemp was diagnosed as
            > > > > > suffering from while in the mental institution? Inquiring minds
            > > > would
            > > > > > like to know! : )
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Mish
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
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