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A Repost: How Many Narcissists Does It Take . . .

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  • prometheus_973
    Everyone! This is a repost of one of Mish s, from Feb. 21, 2003, Message #2321. I thought it was worthy of a re-read. Here s Mish s post: How many narcissists
    Message 1 of 6 , Jun 30, 2007
      Everyone!

      This is a repost of one of Mish's, from Feb. 21, 2003,
      Message #2321. I thought it was worthy of a re-read.
      Here's Mish's post:

      How many narcissists does it take to change a light bulb?
      (a) Just one -- but he has to wait for the whole world to revolve
      around him.
      (b) None at all -- he hires menials for work that's beneath him.

      Hi, All!

      I was interested in looking up some info on Narcissistic Personality
      Disorder and found some good information. It seems that most,
      if not all, of the identifiable traits can be applied to cult scam artists
      like Twitchell and Klemp?

      Here's a link to one discussion site on NPD that posted the above
      narcissist joke and details the common traits of NPD:

      http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/traits.html

      "The most telling thing that narcissists do is contradict themselves.
      They will do this virtually in the same sentence, without stopping
      to take a breath. . . . They will contradict FACTS. They will lie to
      you about things that you did together. They will misquote you to
      yourself. If you disagree with them, they'll say you're lying, making
      stuff up, or are crazy." In short, a narcissist can confuse you and it
      appears that this is exactly what scam artists do.

      In brief, here are some of the other listed traits for NPD:

      1. Casual dishonesty and cruelty to other people

      2. Lack a mature conscience

      3. Envious and competitive

      4. Contemptuous of others

      5. Extremely sensitive to personal criticism/extremely critical
      of other people

      6. Hostile and ferocious in reaction/generally passive and lacking
      in initiative

      7. Naive and vulnerable, pathetic really, no matter how arrogant
      and forceful their words or demeanor

      8.Grandiose

      9.Little sense of humor

      10. Weird sense of time

      11. Totally and inflexibly authoritarian

      12. Strange work habits

      13. Feel entitled

      14. Stingy, mean, frugal to the point of eccentricity

      15. Unusual eating habits or appetites

      16. Secretive or perhaps unusually reserved or very jealous of
      their privacy.

      There are some other traits I didn't list here, but each is explained
      in easy to understand lay terms. The author states that, "Almost
      everyone has some narcissistic traits, but being conceited,
      argumentative, or selfish sometimes (or even all the time) doesn't
      amount to a personality disorder. Narcissistic Personality Disorder is
      a long-term pattern of abnormal thinking, feeling, and behavior in
      many different situations. . . . Narcissism is a personality disorder and
      that means that narcissists'personalities aren't organized in a way that
      makes sense to most people, . . . . Interaction with narcissists is
      confusing, even bewildering--the reasons for what they do are not the
      same as normal reasons."

      Logically and objectively, one can see how a person posing as the
      mahanta, "the highest state of consciousness known to the chronicles of
      mankind" and "God's elect" is an individual who is suffering from
      Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Too bad so many "normal" individuals
      are mislead by such unbalanced and scheming individuals. I can well
      understand the narcissistic trait of secrecy because the Truth of who they
      really are just doesn't match their grandiose view of themselves. The NPD
      sufferer needs followers and people to control in order to prove their lies
      are acceptable and working for them.

      Hey, does anyone know what disorder Klemp was diagnosed as
      suffering from while in the mental institution? Inquiring minds would
      like to know! : )

      Mish
    • prometheus_973
      I thought that I d bring this back to the front page and ask Marla if she thinks her ex (Eck 6th Initiate) was also a narcissist? Were there signs that he
      Message 2 of 6 , Jul 3, 2007
        I thought that I'd bring this back to the front page and
        ask Marla if she thinks her "ex" (Eck 6th Initiate) was
        also a narcissist? Were there signs that he might
        be when looking at the following indicators?

        BTW-Thanks Mish for the info!


        Hi Everyone!
        >
        > This is a repost of one of Mish's, from Feb. 21, 2007,
        > Message #2321. I thought it was worthy of a re-read.
        > Here's Mish's post:
        >
        > How many narcissists does it take to change a light bulb?

        > (a) Just one -- but he has to wait for the whole world to revolve
        > around him.

        > (b) None at all -- he hires menials for work that's beneath him.
        >
        > Hi, All!
        >
        > I was interested in looking up some info on Narcissistic Personality
        > Disorder (NPD) and found some good information. It seems that most,
        > if not all, of the identifiable traits can be applied to cult scam artists
        > like Twitchell and Klemp?
        >
        > Here's a link to one discussion site on NPD that posted the above
        > narcissist joke and details the common traits of NPD:

        http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/traits.html

        > "The most telling thing that narcissists do is contradict themselves.
        > They will do this virtually in the same sentence, without stopping
        > to take a breath. . . . They will contradict FACTS. They will lie to
        > you about things that you did together. They will misquote you to
        > yourself. If you disagree with them, they'll say you're lying, making
        > stuff up, or are crazy." In short, a narcissist can confuse you and it
        > appears that this is exactly what scam artists do.

        In brief, here are some of the other listed traits for NPD:

        1. Casual Dishonesty and Cruelty to Other People

        2. Lacks a Mature Conscience

        3. Envious and Competitive

        4. Contemptuous of others

        5. Extremely Sensitive to Personal Criticism/Extremely Critical
        of Other People

        6. Hostile and Ferocious in Reaction/Generally Passive and Lacking
        in Initiative

        7. Naive and Vulnerable, Pathetic Really, No Matter How Arrogant
        and Forceful their Words or Demeanor

        8. Grandiose

        9. Little Sense of Humor

        10. Weird Sense of Time

        11. Totally and Inflexibly Authoritarian

        12. Strange Work Habits

        13. Feels Entitled

        14. Stingy, Mean, Frugal to the Point of Eccentricity

        15. Unusual Eating Habits or Appetites

        16. Secretive or Perhaps Unusually Reserved or Very Jealous of
        their Privacy.

        > There are some other traits I didn't list here, but each is explained
        > in easy to understand lay terms. The author states that, "Almost
        > everyone has some narcissistic traits, but being conceited,
        > argumentative, or selfish sometimes (or even all the time) doesn't
        > amount to a personality disorder. Narcissistic Personality Disorder is
        > a long-term pattern of abnormal thinking, feeling, and behavior in
        > many different situations. . . . Narcissism is a personality disorder and
        > that means that narcissists'personalities aren't organized in a way that
        > makes sense to most people, . . . . Interaction with narcissists is
        > confusing, even bewildering--the reasons for what they do are not the
        > same as normal reasons."
        >
        > Logically and objectively, one can see how a person posing as the
        > mahanta, "the highest state of consciousness known to the chronicles of
        > mankind" and "God's elect" is an individual who is suffering from
        > Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Too bad so many "normal" individuals
        > are mislead by such unbalanced and scheming individuals. I can well
        > understand the narcissistic trait of secrecy because the Truth of who they
        > really are just doesn't match their grandiose view of themselves. The NPD
        > sufferer needs followers and people to control in order to prove their lies
        > are acceptable and working for them.
        >
        > Hey, does anyone know what disorder Klemp was diagnosed as
        > suffering from while in the mental institution? Inquiring minds would
        > like to know! : )
        >
        > Mish
      • marlaprendergast
        Yes, I would say most of those traits do apply. However, they came out slowly, insidiously, over a period of time. It was not apparent to me at the beginning,
        Message 3 of 6 , Jul 3, 2007
          Yes, I would say most of those traits do apply. However, they came
          out slowly, insidiously, over a period of time. It was not apparent
          to me at the beginning, obviously or I never would have got involved.

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
          <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
          >
          > I thought that I'd bring this back to the front page and
          > ask Marla if she thinks her "ex" (Eck 6th Initiate) was
          > also a narcissist? Were there signs that he might
          > be when looking at the following indicators?
          >
          > BTW-Thanks Mish for the info!
          >
          >
          > Hi Everyone!
          > >
          > > This is a repost of one of Mish's, from Feb. 21, 2007,
          > > Message #2321. I thought it was worthy of a re-read.
          > > Here's Mish's post:
          > >
          > > How many narcissists does it take to change a light bulb?
          >
          > > (a) Just one -- but he has to wait for the whole world to revolve
          > > around him.
          >
          > > (b) None at all -- he hires menials for work that's beneath him.
          > >
          > > Hi, All!
          > >
          > > I was interested in looking up some info on Narcissistic
          Personality
          > > Disorder (NPD) and found some good information. It seems that
          most,
          > > if not all, of the identifiable traits can be applied to cult
          scam artists
          > > like Twitchell and Klemp?
          > >
          > > Here's a link to one discussion site on NPD that posted the above
          > > narcissist joke and details the common traits of NPD:
          >
          > http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/traits.html
          >
          > > "The most telling thing that narcissists do is contradict
          themselves.
          > > They will do this virtually in the same sentence, without
          stopping
          > > to take a breath. . . . They will contradict FACTS. They will
          lie to
          > > you about things that you did together. They will misquote you to
          > > yourself. If you disagree with them, they'll say you're lying,
          making
          > > stuff up, or are crazy." In short, a narcissist can confuse you
          and it
          > > appears that this is exactly what scam artists do.
          >
          > In brief, here are some of the other listed traits for NPD:
          >
          > 1. Casual Dishonesty and Cruelty to Other People
          >
          > 2. Lacks a Mature Conscience
          >
          > 3. Envious and Competitive
          >
          > 4. Contemptuous of others
          >
          > 5. Extremely Sensitive to Personal Criticism/Extremely Critical
          > of Other People
          >
          > 6. Hostile and Ferocious in Reaction/Generally Passive and Lacking
          > in Initiative
          >
          > 7. Naive and Vulnerable, Pathetic Really, No Matter How Arrogant
          > and Forceful their Words or Demeanor
          >
          > 8. Grandiose
          >
          > 9. Little Sense of Humor
          >
          > 10. Weird Sense of Time
          >
          > 11. Totally and Inflexibly Authoritarian
          >
          > 12. Strange Work Habits
          >
          > 13. Feels Entitled
          >
          > 14. Stingy, Mean, Frugal to the Point of Eccentricity
          >
          > 15. Unusual Eating Habits or Appetites
          >
          > 16. Secretive or Perhaps Unusually Reserved or Very Jealous of
          > their Privacy.
          >
          > > There are some other traits I didn't list here, but each is
          explained
          > > in easy to understand lay terms. The author states that, "Almost
          > > everyone has some narcissistic traits, but being conceited,
          > > argumentative, or selfish sometimes (or even all the time)
          doesn't
          > > amount to a personality disorder. Narcissistic Personality
          Disorder is
          > > a long-term pattern of abnormal thinking, feeling, and behavior
          in
          > > many different situations. . . . Narcissism is a personality
          disorder and
          > > that means that narcissists'personalities aren't organized in a
          way that
          > > makes sense to most people, . . . . Interaction with narcissists
          is
          > > confusing, even bewildering--the reasons for what they do are
          not the
          > > same as normal reasons."
          > >
          > > Logically and objectively, one can see how a person posing as the
          > > mahanta, "the highest state of consciousness known to the
          chronicles of
          > > mankind" and "God's elect" is an individual who is suffering from
          > > Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Too bad so many "normal"
          individuals
          > > are mislead by such unbalanced and scheming individuals. I can
          well
          > > understand the narcissistic trait of secrecy because the Truth
          of who they
          > > really are just doesn't match their grandiose view of
          themselves. The NPD
          > > sufferer needs followers and people to control in order to prove
          their lies
          > > are acceptable and working for them.
          > >
          > > Hey, does anyone know what disorder Klemp was diagnosed as
          > > suffering from while in the mental institution? Inquiring minds
          would
          > > like to know! : )
          > >
          > > Mish
          >
        • mishmisha9
          Hi, Marla and All! I had posted the article link on narcissism because I could see how religious leaders like Klemp were displaying narcissistic
          Message 4 of 6 , Jul 4, 2007
            Hi, Marla and All!

            I had posted the article link on narcissism because I could see how
            religious leaders like Klemp were displaying narcissistic characteristics,
            a seemingly common personality trait of some people who are leaders,
            especially those who want to be deceitful and manipulative of others.

            I am not surprised that you say your ex boyfriend seemed to have most
            of the traits listed in the article. Also, I am not surprised that his controll
            was not apparent to you at first either. This is generally the way it is with
            manipulators--they hook you and then reel you in slowly, so that you
            hardly realize what their motivation or what their true personality is, or
            that you ahve fallen under their domination.

            A narcissicist is all about control. His power is in controlling others, and
            the more he can effect that way, the more he likes it. Putting someone down
            on a regular basis eats at one's self esteem to the point that a narcissist can
            trick his victim into thinking that they are the ones with the problems while in
            truth, it is the narcissist who is the problem! I think you did very well
            to get away from this abuser.

            A big red flag for me is when someone confuses me or makes me feel that
            my thinking is wrong or flawed. I have to stop and really look at this, to
            see if I'm being manipulated.

            I'm not sure why your ex boyfriend wanted you to have an ESA session, and
            even though you did enjoy it and didn't seem to find it harmful to you, the
            fact that he wanted you to go to the ESA tells me that as an eckist he wanted
            re-enforcement to support all the stuff he was doing and doing to you. He
            expected that the ESA would see his behaviors quite eck permissive. That is
            what I think he was doing??? Another tool to manipulate and control he used
            under the guise of spiritual enlightenment, as he worked on keeping you
            under his domination.

            In my message about victim consciousness, I was directing readers
            to check out thrivenet.com as that site has many good tips and techniques on
            finding the positive things in one's life, including taking the negatives and turning
            them into positives in order to thrive and grow. A victim always has a choice in
            the way one learns from life's hard lessons. Sometimes people can get stuck in
            one place. Obviously, you moved on rather quickly, but the tools found on this
            site are worth a look, IMO. And I think that they would help anyone who has to
            deal with a narcissist up close and personal--and there are plenty to be found,
            narcissists, that is!

            Also, I want to add that while I can see many narcissists being attracted to
            religious/spiritual groups, I do not believe that all eckists are narcissists.
            However, eckists might through the eck teachings take on narcissistic
            characteristics. In general, I think all of us on this planet are much summed up
            in the quote from Jed McKenna that Liz likes to often use:

            "We are wonderful spiritual beings having a human experience. ?"

            It is not necessary or needed to follow a group think or take on religious
            dogma or mantras. Eckists, like the rest of us, are their own spiritual guides,
            and are only being slowed down in the quest for spiritual growth and
            understanding when they allow a deceiver like Harold Klemp to step in their
            way. That is why I like these discussions about the deceit and lies
            about eckankar--sharing the real truth and perspectives regarding the fake
            eck religion!

            Mish

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "marlaprendergast"
            <kws11@...> wrote:
            >
            > Yes, I would say most of those traits do apply. However, they came
            > out slowly, insidiously, over a period of time. It was not apparent
            > to me at the beginning, obviously or I never would have got involved.
            >
            > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
            > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
            > >
            > > I thought that I'd bring this back to the front page and
            > > ask Marla if she thinks her "ex" (Eck 6th Initiate) was
            > > also a narcissist? Were there signs that he might
            > > be when looking at the following indicators?
            > >
            > > BTW-Thanks Mish for the info!
            > >
            > >
            > > Hi Everyone!
            > > >
            > > > This is a repost of one of Mish's, from Feb. 21, 2007,
            > > > Message #2321. I thought it was worthy of a re-read.
            > > > Here's Mish's post:
            > > >
            > > > How many narcissists does it take to change a light bulb?
            > >
            > > > (a) Just one -- but he has to wait for the whole world to revolve
            > > > around him.
            > >
            > > > (b) None at all -- he hires menials for work that's beneath him.
            > > >
            > > > Hi, All!
            > > >
            > > > I was interested in looking up some info on Narcissistic
            > Personality
            > > > Disorder (NPD) and found some good information. It seems that
            > most,
            > > > if not all, of the identifiable traits can be applied to cult
            > scam artists
            > > > like Twitchell and Klemp?
            > > >
            > > > Here's a link to one discussion site on NPD that posted the above
            > > > narcissist joke and details the common traits of NPD:
            > >
            > > http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/traits.html
            > >
            > > > "The most telling thing that narcissists do is contradict
            > themselves.
            > > > They will do this virtually in the same sentence, without
            > stopping
            > > > to take a breath. . . . They will contradict FACTS. They will
            > lie to
            > > > you about things that you did together. They will misquote you to
            > > > yourself. If you disagree with them, they'll say you're lying,
            > making
            > > > stuff up, or are crazy." In short, a narcissist can confuse you
            > and it
            > > > appears that this is exactly what scam artists do.
            > >
            > > In brief, here are some of the other listed traits for NPD:
            > >
            > > 1. Casual Dishonesty and Cruelty to Other People
            > >
            > > 2. Lacks a Mature Conscience
            > >
            > > 3. Envious and Competitive
            > >
            > > 4. Contemptuous of others
            > >
            > > 5. Extremely Sensitive to Personal Criticism/Extremely Critical
            > > of Other People
            > >
            > > 6. Hostile and Ferocious in Reaction/Generally Passive and Lacking
            > > in Initiative
            > >
            > > 7. Naive and Vulnerable, Pathetic Really, No Matter How Arrogant
            > > and Forceful their Words or Demeanor
            > >
            > > 8. Grandiose
            > >
            > > 9. Little Sense of Humor
            > >
            > > 10. Weird Sense of Time
            > >
            > > 11. Totally and Inflexibly Authoritarian
            > >
            > > 12. Strange Work Habits
            > >
            > > 13. Feels Entitled
            > >
            > > 14. Stingy, Mean, Frugal to the Point of Eccentricity
            > >
            > > 15. Unusual Eating Habits or Appetites
            > >
            > > 16. Secretive or Perhaps Unusually Reserved or Very Jealous of
            > > their Privacy.
            > >
            > > > There are some other traits I didn't list here, but each is
            > explained
            > > > in easy to understand lay terms. The author states that, "Almost
            > > > everyone has some narcissistic traits, but being conceited,
            > > > argumentative, or selfish sometimes (or even all the time)
            > doesn't
            > > > amount to a personality disorder. Narcissistic Personality
            > Disorder is
            > > > a long-term pattern of abnormal thinking, feeling, and behavior
            > in
            > > > many different situations. . . . Narcissism is a personality
            > disorder and
            > > > that means that narcissists'personalities aren't organized in a
            > way that
            > > > makes sense to most people, . . . . Interaction with narcissists
            > is
            > > > confusing, even bewildering--the reasons for what they do are
            > not the
            > > > same as normal reasons."
            > > >
            > > > Logically and objectively, one can see how a person posing as the
            > > > mahanta, "the highest state of consciousness known to the
            > chronicles of
            > > > mankind" and "God's elect" is an individual who is suffering from
            > > > Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Too bad so many "normal"
            > individuals
            > > > are mislead by such unbalanced and scheming individuals. I can
            > well
            > > > understand the narcissistic trait of secrecy because the Truth
            > of who they
            > > > really are just doesn't match their grandiose view of
            > themselves. The NPD
            > > > sufferer needs followers and people to control in order to prove
            > their lies
            > > > are acceptable and working for them.
            > > >
            > > > Hey, does anyone know what disorder Klemp was diagnosed as
            > > > suffering from while in the mental institution? Inquiring minds
            > would
            > > > like to know! : )
            > > >
            > > > Mish
            > >
            >
          • prometheus_973
            Hi All, Good post Mish! Of course with Eckankar the chief narcissist was Twitchell. In hindsight I can see how some of those I encountered, as an Eck
            Message 5 of 6 , Jul 4, 2007
              Hi All,
              Good post Mish! Of course with Eckankar the chief
              narcissist was Twitchell. In hindsight I can see how
              some of those I encountered, as an Eck "explorer"
              and "settler," were narcissists... including at least one
              RESA! At the time I just thought that they were control
              freaks of/for the Mahanta or "perfectionists" of some
              sort!

              Actually, if I had read or studied the NPD indicators while
              an Eckist... it would have explained the "why" of things
              better and I wouldn't have had some of those people upon
              a pedestal! I would, also, have had a better idea of who I
              was as Soul rather than following the instructions of
              someone claiming to be above me via initiation or thru
              their embellished Seminar stories, etc.. I even made the
              mistake of having certain Former H.I.s upon a pedestal,
              of sorts, at one time or another as well! I guarantee that
              won't ever happen again! LOL!

              The more and more one hears them (narcissists) talk and
              talk and talk (always needing to get in the last word) and
              the more discussions one enters into with them the easier
              they are to spot. They are never wrong and are pseudo-
              experts just like Twit and Klemp and other sickos like
              them. I can now understand why they seemed paranoid
              at times too. It's one of the by-products of this disorder.

              Klemp is a real sicko! He uses the INTERNET subject because
              he wants to stop Eckists from reading, exploring, researching,
              and thinking on their own, and from finding anti-Eckankar
              sites like this one. HK gives one message to Lower Initiates
              (fear) and another message (moderation) to High Initiates!
              Then again, these narcissists are master manipulators and
              liars because they've done this all their lives. In fact they
              distort the Truth because they are weak! Their ego feels the
              need to over protect them and, thus, over compensates!
              These narcissits have always gotten their way as children
              because they did what it took to do so! They would kick and
              scream, or pout, stop speaking, or say they hated their parents,
              or even threaten to kill themselves, and any number of other
              things when they didn't get their way. Sometimes they will just
              wear their opponents down with verbal pleas or arguments
              until they win out!

              Anyway, Mish, thanks again for your comments and insights.
              It was interesting for me to revisit the "why" behind some of
              those negative/offensive and bullying personalities that really
              weren't "spiritual" or "higher" in consciousness after all!

              Prometheus


              mish wrote:
              >
              >
              > Hi, Marla and All!
              >
              > I had posted the article link on narcissism because I could see how
              > religious leaders like Klemp were displaying narcissistic characteristics,
              > a seemingly common personality trait of some people who are leaders,
              > especially those who want to be deceitful and manipulative of others.
              >
              > I am not surprised that you say your ex boyfriend seemed to have most
              > of the traits listed in the article. Also, I am not surprised that his controll
              > was not apparent to you at first either. This is generally the way it is with
              > manipulators--they hook you and then reel you in slowly, so that you
              > hardly realize what their motivation or what their true personality is, or
              > that you ahve fallen under their domination.
              >
              > A narcissicist is all about control. His power is in controlling others, and
              > the more he can effect that way, the more he likes it. Putting someone down
              > on a regular basis eats at one's self esteem to the point that a narcissist can
              > trick his victim into thinking that they are the ones with the problems while in
              > truth, it is the narcissist who is the problem! I think you did very well
              > to get away from this abuser.
              >
              > A big red flag for me is when someone confuses me or makes me feel that
              > my thinking is wrong or flawed. I have to stop and really look at this, to
              > see if I'm being manipulated.
              >
              > I'm not sure why your ex boyfriend wanted you to have an ESA session, and
              > even though you did enjoy it and didn't seem to find it harmful to you, the
              > fact that he wanted you to go to the ESA tells me that as an eckist he wanted
              > re-enforcement to support all the stuff he was doing and doing to you. He
              > expected that the ESA would see his behaviors quite eck permissive. That is
              > what I think he was doing??? Another tool to manipulate and control he used
              > under the guise of spiritual enlightenment, as he worked on keeping you
              > under his domination.
              >
              > In my message about victim consciousness, I was directing readers
              > to check out thrivenet.com as that site has many good tips and techniques on
              > finding the positive things in one's life, including taking the negatives and turning
              > them into positives in order to thrive and grow. A victim always has a choice in
              > the way one learns from life's hard lessons. Sometimes people can get stuck in
              > one place. Obviously, you moved on rather quickly, but the tools found on this
              > site are worth a look, IMO. And I think that they would help anyone who has to
              > deal with a narcissist up close and personal--and there are plenty to be found,
              > narcissists, that is!
              >
              > Also, I want to add that while I can see many narcissists being attracted to
              > religious/spiritual groups, I do not believe that all eckists are narcissists.
              > However, eckists might through the eck teachings take on narcissistic
              > characteristics. In general, I think all of us on this planet are much summed up
              > in the quote from Jed McKenna that Liz likes to often use:
              >
              > "We are wonderful spiritual beings having a human experience. ?"
              >
              > It is not necessary or needed to follow a group think or take on religious
              > dogma or mantras. Eckists, like the rest of us, are their own spiritual guides,
              > and are only being slowed down in the quest for spiritual growth and
              > understanding when they allow a deceiver like Harold Klemp to step in their
              > way. That is why I like these discussions about the deceit and lies
              > about eckankar--sharing the real truth and perspectives regarding the fake
              > eck religion!
              >
              > Mish
              >
              > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "marlaprendergast"
              > <kws11@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Yes, I would say most of those traits do apply. However, they came
              > > out slowly, insidiously, over a period of time. It was not apparent
              > > to me at the beginning, obviously or I never would have got involved.
              > >
              > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
              > > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > I thought that I'd bring this back to the front page and
              > > > ask Marla if she thinks her "ex" (Eck 6th Initiate) was
              > > > also a narcissist? Were there signs that he might
              > > > be when looking at the following indicators?
              > > >
              > > > BTW-Thanks Mish for the info!
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Hi Everyone!
              > > > >
              > > > > This is a repost of one of Mish's, from Feb. 21, 2007,
              > > > > Message #2321. I thought it was worthy of a re-read.
              > > > > Here's Mish's post:
              > > > >
              > > > > How many narcissists does it take to change a light bulb?
              > > >
              > > > > (a) Just one -- but he has to wait for the whole world to revolve
              > > > > around him.
              > > >
              > > > > (b) None at all -- he hires menials for work that's beneath him.
              > > > >
              > > > > Hi, All!
              > > > >
              > > > > I was interested in looking up some info on Narcissistic
              > > Personality
              > > > > Disorder (NPD) and found some good information. It seems that
              > > most,
              > > > > if not all, of the identifiable traits can be applied to cult
              > > scam artists
              > > > > like Twitchell and Klemp?
              > > > >
              > > > > Here's a link to one discussion site on NPD that posted the above
              > > > > narcissist joke and details the common traits of NPD:
              > > >
              > > > http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/traits.html
              > > >
              > > > > "The most telling thing that narcissists do is contradict
              > > themselves.
              > > > > They will do this virtually in the same sentence, without
              > > stopping
              > > > > to take a breath. . . . They will contradict FACTS. They will
              > > lie to
              > > > > you about things that you did together. They will misquote you to
              > > > > yourself. If you disagree with them, they'll say you're lying,
              > > making
              > > > > stuff up, or are crazy." In short, a narcissist can confuse you
              > > and it
              > > > > appears that this is exactly what scam artists do.
              > > >
              > > > In brief, here are some of the other listed traits for NPD:
              > > >
              > > > 1. Casual Dishonesty and Cruelty to Other People
              > > >
              > > > 2. Lacks a Mature Conscience
              > > >
              > > > 3. Envious and Competitive
              > > >
              > > > 4. Contemptuous of others
              > > >
              > > > 5. Extremely Sensitive to Personal Criticism/Extremely Critical
              > > > of Other People
              > > >
              > > > 6. Hostile and Ferocious in Reaction/Generally Passive and Lacking
              > > > in Initiative
              > > >
              > > > 7. Naive and Vulnerable, Pathetic Really, No Matter How Arrogant
              > > > and Forceful their Words or Demeanor
              > > >
              > > > 8. Grandiose
              > > >
              > > > 9. Little Sense of Humor
              > > >
              > > > 10. Weird Sense of Time
              > > >
              > > > 11. Totally and Inflexibly Authoritarian
              > > >
              > > > 12. Strange Work Habits
              > > >
              > > > 13. Feels Entitled
              > > >
              > > > 14. Stingy, Mean, Frugal to the Point of Eccentricity
              > > >
              > > > 15. Unusual Eating Habits or Appetites
              > > >
              > > > 16. Secretive or Perhaps Unusually Reserved or Very Jealous of
              > > > their Privacy.
              > > >
              > > > > There are some other traits I didn't list here, but each is
              > > explained
              > > > > in easy to understand lay terms. The author states that, "Almost
              > > > > everyone has some narcissistic traits, but being conceited,
              > > > > argumentative, or selfish sometimes (or even all the time)
              > > doesn't
              > > > > amount to a personality disorder. Narcissistic Personality
              > > Disorder is
              > > > > a long-term pattern of abnormal thinking, feeling, and behavior
              > > in
              > > > > many different situations. . . . Narcissism is a personality
              > > disorder and
              > > > > that means that narcissists'personalities aren't organized in a
              > > way that
              > > > > makes sense to most people, . . . . Interaction with narcissists
              > > is
              > > > > confusing, even bewildering--the reasons for what they do are
              > > not the
              > > > > same as normal reasons."
              > > > >
              > > > > Logically and objectively, one can see how a person posing as the
              > > > > mahanta, "the highest state of consciousness known to the
              > > chronicles of
              > > > > mankind" and "God's elect" is an individual who is suffering from
              > > > > Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Too bad so many "normal"
              > > individuals
              > > > > are mislead by such unbalanced and scheming individuals. I can
              > > well
              > > > > understand the narcissistic trait of secrecy because the Truth
              > > of who they
              > > > > really are just doesn't match their grandiose view of
              > > themselves. The NPD
              > > > > sufferer needs followers and people to control in order to prove
              > > their lies
              > > > > are acceptable and working for them.
              > > > >
              > > > > Hey, does anyone know what disorder Klemp was diagnosed as
              > > > > suffering from while in the mental institution? Inquiring minds
              > > would
              > > > > like to know! : )
              > > > >
              > > > > Mish
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • prometheus_973
              I have been recalling the words and actions of various people, who with closer obversation, typify the indicators of narcissistic personality disorder. There
              Message 6 of 6 , Jul 7, 2007
                I have been recalling the words and actions of various
                people, who with closer obversation, typify the indicators
                of narcissistic personality disorder.

                There is one person, I know, who is generally disrespectful
                to most people, (he thinks he knows more than anyone) and
                is, especially, disrespectful towards women. He'll break up with
                women he's dating by using something said by her and blowing
                it all out of portion! This way she'll feel that the conflict was of
                her making and her fault and as he portrays himself as the victim.
                It's interesting that this man, also, searches out those women
                that he can manipulate, and that these women are drawn to him.
                Of course he does hold a somewhat "prestigious" professional
                job in the community and this tends to draw women to him as
                he boasts of his accomplishments. He doesn't have many "friends"
                and the ones he does have are other men that don't challenge his
                ego. On the surface he seems like a fun person, but this is on a
                superficial level. This is why people, and women especially, at first
                glance are attracted to him. In truth he's a liar, self-involved,
                unethical, envious, fearful, and is disrespectful to even his higher
                Self. He is a lost Soul. If he wasn't so arrogant and mean spirited
                he could be pitied... except that's too good for him when viewing
                the harm that he has done others and continues to do!

                Anyway, after discovering the true nature of this individual I
                no longer have contact with him, although, I kept hoping that
                he'd change. I phoned him recently and discovered that life
                hasn't given him the lessons he needs for him to take a closer
                look at himself nor his destructive actions. Therefore, I have
                washed my hands of him... he can never be trusted to be more
                than he is. It's still a mystery to me as to when, why, and how
                he first changed and became a narrcissist. Be that as it is... a
                person can only change (for the better) when they can admit
                that they need to change. Until then... the best I can do is to
                stay away from him and warn others when possible. Perhaps,
                this too, is what Marla is doing by coming to the anti-Eckankar
                sites and sharing some details of her experience with her
                ex-boyfriend (An ECK 6th Initiate).

                Prometheus



                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi All,
                > Good post Mish! Of course with Eckankar the chief
                > narcissist was Twitchell. In hindsight I can see how
                > some of those I encountered, as an Eck "explorer"
                > and "settler," were narcissists... including at least one
                > RESA! At the time I just thought that they were control
                > freaks of/for the Mahanta or "perfectionists" of some
                > sort!
                >
                > Actually, if I had read or studied the NPD indicators while
                > an Eckist... it would have explained the "why" of things
                > better and I wouldn't have had some of those people upon
                > a pedestal! I would, also, have had a better idea of who I
                > was as Soul rather than following the instructions of
                > someone claiming to be above me via initiation or thru
                > their embellished Seminar stories, etc.. I even made the
                > mistake of having certain Former H.I.s upon a pedestal,
                > of sorts, at one time or another as well! I guarantee that
                > won't ever happen again! LOL!
                >
                > The more and more one hears them (narcissists) talk and
                > talk and talk (always needing to get in the last word) and
                > the more discussions one enters into with them the easier
                > they are to spot. They are never wrong and are pseudo-
                > experts just like Twit and Klemp and other sickos like
                > them. I can now understand why they seemed paranoid
                > at times too. It's one of the by-products of this disorder.
                >
                > Klemp is a real sicko! He uses the INTERNET subject because
                > he wants to stop Eckists from reading, exploring, researching,
                > and thinking on their own, and from finding anti-Eckankar
                > sites like this one. HK gives one message to Lower Initiates
                > (fear) and another message (moderation) to High Initiates!
                > Then again, these narcissists are master manipulators and
                > liars because they've done this all their lives. In fact they
                > distort the Truth because they are weak! Their ego feels the
                > need to over protect them and, thus, over compensates!
                > These narcissits have always gotten their way as children
                > because they did what it took to do so! They would kick and
                > scream, or pout, stop speaking, or say they hated their parents,
                > or even threaten to kill themselves, and any number of other
                > things when they didn't get their way. Sometimes they will just
                > wear their opponents down with verbal pleas or arguments
                > until they win out!
                >
                > Anyway, Mish, thanks again for your comments and insights.
                > It was interesting for me to revisit the "why" behind some of
                > those negative/offensive and bullying personalities that really
                > weren't "spiritual" or "higher" in consciousness after all!
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                >
                > mish wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > Hi, Marla and All!
                > >
                > > I had posted the article link on narcissism because I could see how
                > > religious leaders like Klemp were displaying narcissistic characteristics,
                > > a seemingly common personality trait of some people who are leaders,
                > > especially those who want to be deceitful and manipulative of others.
                > >
                > > I am not surprised that you say your ex boyfriend seemed to have most
                > > of the traits listed in the article. Also, I am not surprised that his controll
                > > was not apparent to you at first either. This is generally the way it is with
                > > manipulators--they hook you and then reel you in slowly, so that you
                > > hardly realize what their motivation or what their true personality is, or
                > > that you ahve fallen under their domination.
                > >
                > > A narcissicist is all about control. His power is in controlling others, and
                > > the more he can effect that way, the more he likes it. Putting someone down
                > > on a regular basis eats at one's self esteem to the point that a narcissist can
                > > trick his victim into thinking that they are the ones with the problems while in
                > > truth, it is the narcissist who is the problem! I think you did very well
                > > to get away from this abuser.
                > >
                > > A big red flag for me is when someone confuses me or makes me feel that
                > > my thinking is wrong or flawed. I have to stop and really look at this, to
                > > see if I'm being manipulated.
                > >
                > > I'm not sure why your ex boyfriend wanted you to have an ESA session, and
                > > even though you did enjoy it and didn't seem to find it harmful to you, the
                > > fact that he wanted you to go to the ESA tells me that as an eckist he wanted
                > > re-enforcement to support all the stuff he was doing and doing to you. He
                > > expected that the ESA would see his behaviors quite eck permissive. That is
                > > what I think he was doing??? Another tool to manipulate and control he used
                > > under the guise of spiritual enlightenment, as he worked on keeping you
                > > under his domination.
                > >
                > > In my message about victim consciousness, I was directing readers
                > > to check out thrivenet.com as that site has many good tips and techniques on
                > > finding the positive things in one's life, including taking the negatives and turning
                > > them into positives in order to thrive and grow. A victim always has a choice in
                > > the way one learns from life's hard lessons. Sometimes people can get stuck in
                > > one place. Obviously, you moved on rather quickly, but the tools found on this
                > > site are worth a look, IMO. And I think that they would help anyone who has to
                > > deal with a narcissist up close and personal--and there are plenty to be found,
                > > narcissists, that is!
                > >
                > > Also, I want to add that while I can see many narcissists being attracted to
                > > religious/spiritual groups, I do not believe that all eckists are narcissists.
                > > However, eckists might through the eck teachings take on narcissistic
                > > characteristics. In general, I think all of us on this planet are much summed up
                > > in the quote from Jed McKenna that Liz likes to often use:
                > >
                > > "We are wonderful spiritual beings having a human experience. ?"
                > >
                > > It is not necessary or needed to follow a group think or take on religious
                > > dogma or mantras. Eckists, like the rest of us, are their own spiritual guides,
                > > and are only being slowed down in the quest for spiritual growth and
                > > understanding when they allow a deceiver like Harold Klemp to step in their
                > > way. That is why I like these discussions about the deceit and lies
                > > about eckankar--sharing the real truth and perspectives regarding the fake
                > > eck religion!
                > >
                > > Mish
                > >
                > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "marlaprendergast"
                > > <kws11@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Yes, I would say most of those traits do apply. However, they came
                > > > out slowly, insidiously, over a period of time. It was not apparent
                > > > to me at the beginning, obviously or I never would have got involved.
                > > >
                > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                > > > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > I thought that I'd bring this back to the front page and
                > > > > ask Marla if she thinks her "ex" (Eck 6th Initiate) was
                > > > > also a narcissist? Were there signs that he might
                > > > > be when looking at the following indicators?
                > > > >
                > > > > BTW-Thanks Mish for the info!
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > Hi Everyone!
                > > > > >
                > > > > > This is a repost of one of Mish's, from Feb. 21, 2007,
                > > > > > Message #2321. I thought it was worthy of a re-read.
                > > > > > Here's Mish's post:
                > > > > >
                > > > > > How many narcissists does it take to change a light bulb?
                > > > >
                > > > > > (a) Just one -- but he has to wait for the whole world to revolve
                > > > > > around him.
                > > > >
                > > > > > (b) None at all -- he hires menials for work that's beneath him.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Hi, All!
                > > > > >
                > > > > > I was interested in looking up some info on Narcissistic
                > > > Personality
                > > > > > Disorder (NPD) and found some good information. It seems that
                > > > most,
                > > > > > if not all, of the identifiable traits can be applied to cult
                > > > scam artists
                > > > > > like Twitchell and Klemp?
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Here's a link to one discussion site on NPD that posted the above
                > > > > > narcissist joke and details the common traits of NPD:
                > > > >
                > > > > http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/traits.html
                > > > >
                > > > > > "The most telling thing that narcissists do is contradict
                > > > themselves.
                > > > > > They will do this virtually in the same sentence, without
                > > > stopping
                > > > > > to take a breath. . . . They will contradict FACTS. They will
                > > > lie to
                > > > > > you about things that you did together. They will misquote you to
                > > > > > yourself. If you disagree with them, they'll say you're lying,
                > > > making
                > > > > > stuff up, or are crazy." In short, a narcissist can confuse you
                > > > and it
                > > > > > appears that this is exactly what scam artists do.
                > > > >
                > > > > In brief, here are some of the other listed traits for NPD:
                > > > >
                > > > > 1. Casual Dishonesty and Cruelty to Other People
                > > > >
                > > > > 2. Lacks a Mature Conscience
                > > > >
                > > > > 3. Envious and Competitive
                > > > >
                > > > > 4. Contemptuous of others
                > > > >
                > > > > 5. Extremely Sensitive to Personal Criticism/Extremely Critical
                > > > > of Other People
                > > > >
                > > > > 6. Hostile and Ferocious in Reaction/Generally Passive and Lacking
                > > > > in Initiative
                > > > >
                > > > > 7. Naive and Vulnerable, Pathetic Really, No Matter How Arrogant
                > > > > and Forceful their Words or Demeanor
                > > > >
                > > > > 8. Grandiose
                > > > >
                > > > > 9. Little Sense of Humor
                > > > >
                > > > > 10. Weird Sense of Time
                > > > >
                > > > > 11. Totally and Inflexibly Authoritarian
                > > > >
                > > > > 12. Strange Work Habits
                > > > >
                > > > > 13. Feels Entitled
                > > > >
                > > > > 14. Stingy, Mean, Frugal to the Point of Eccentricity
                > > > >
                > > > > 15. Unusual Eating Habits or Appetites
                > > > >
                > > > > 16. Secretive or Perhaps Unusually Reserved or Very Jealous of
                > > > > their Privacy.
                > > > >
                > > > > > There are some other traits I didn't list here, but each is
                > > > explained
                > > > > > in easy to understand lay terms. The author states that, "Almost
                > > > > > everyone has some narcissistic traits, but being conceited,
                > > > > > argumentative, or selfish sometimes (or even all the time)
                > > > doesn't
                > > > > > amount to a personality disorder. Narcissistic Personality
                > > > Disorder is
                > > > > > a long-term pattern of abnormal thinking, feeling, and behavior
                > > > in
                > > > > > many different situations. . . . Narcissism is a personality
                > > > disorder and
                > > > > > that means that narcissists'personalities aren't organized in a
                > > > way that
                > > > > > makes sense to most people, . . . . Interaction with narcissists
                > > > is
                > > > > > confusing, even bewildering--the reasons for what they do are
                > > > not the
                > > > > > same as normal reasons."
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Logically and objectively, one can see how a person posing as the
                > > > > > mahanta, "the highest state of consciousness known to the
                > > > chronicles of
                > > > > > mankind" and "God's elect" is an individual who is suffering from
                > > > > > Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Too bad so many "normal"
                > > > individuals
                > > > > > are mislead by such unbalanced and scheming individuals. I can
                > > > well
                > > > > > understand the narcissistic trait of secrecy because the Truth
                > > > of who they
                > > > > > really are just doesn't match their grandiose view of
                > > > themselves. The NPD
                > > > > > sufferer needs followers and people to control in order to prove
                > > > their lies
                > > > > > are acceptable and working for them.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Hey, does anyone know what disorder Klemp was diagnosed as
                > > > > > suffering from while in the mental institution? Inquiring minds
                > > > would
                > > > > > like to know! : )
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Mish
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
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