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  • prometheus_973
    Hi All, Isn t it nice to be free from Eckankar and all of those lies that leave Eckists hanging onto hope while they putter away their lives in their own
    Message 1 of 10 , Jun 30 1:49 PM
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      Hi All,
      Isn't it nice to be free from Eckankar and all of those lies
      that leave Eckists hanging onto hope while they putter
      away their lives in their own private little worlds of delusion.
      Happy Independence!

      On another note: It is interesting that a person came here
      (Marla) to share their opinion of the negative "romantic"
      relationship with one of Klemp's H.I.s. And, this one-sided
      view did seem to put the H.I. Eckankar Cleric in a bad
      light according to his jilted ex-girlfriend. Apparently, Marla
      thinks the anti-Eckankar sites are a good place to air the
      dirty laundry, to get even, to inform others of this bad behaviour,
      or just vent her anger. Afterall, these H.I.s are supposed to be
      more "spiritual" than mere mortals, as well as, other Souls.
      Marla did take a positive suggestion and changed her pseudonym
      from marlasobbing to marlapretendgasp, although, I'm puzzled
      at the second choice. Anyway, there were some things said to
      Marla that could have been said in a more diplomatic or
      politically correct way and was not... for that I apologize.

      in another case we had a former h.i. ride in on his white horse
      to rescue the damsel in distress. it seemed like he thought he
      was still a swordsman for the sugmad. lol! There will be no further
      explanations or discussions on this matter or subjects related to
      this.

      In two other cases a Zoey True, and a Rowan Oak came in
      to further undermine the site with negative posts that were
      deleted. Zoey, also, sent nasty, rude, crude, and even lewd
      private e-mails to some site members. This is one reason why
      Liz posted what she did on the public forum (ESA) rather than
      to Zoey privately. Zoey's private e-mails were insightful ONLY
      in that they showed his/her true character, as well as, a below
      average intelligence and spiritual growth. However, it does seem
      that Zoey True and Rowan Oak are the same person due to the
      similar e-mails being sent (and deleted) with their intentional
      attempt to shut this site down.


      BTW-Leaf: The reason your post did not go up is because I requested
      that they be reviewed first by me. Liz seemed to want to reply to you,
      in part, on this site. However, if you want to discuss your deleted post
      further with her then you should e-mail her privately.

      Prometheus
    • Non ekster
      Well this is all seeming very weird to me. If there is anyone I greatly respect as a poster on many of these ex eckankar sites, it is Leaf or Kent. Anonymous
      Message 2 of 10 , Jul 2, 2007
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        Well this is all seeming very weird to me. If there is anyone I
        greatly respect as a poster on many of these ex eckankar sites, it is
        Leaf or Kent. Anonymous is in the main title of this group, so I could
        see that there would be an opportunity for anyone to post here either
        sincerely or not. But I have never come across a post by Kent that I
        recall ever needing to be deleted or edited. He is definitely a non
        eckist and I actually agree with much of what he has to say. I also
        find it odd that with all of the intelligent posts I've read here that
        Kent would be slandered several times for appearing to be too
        intelligent. lol Some people are more dramatic than others. If someone
        wants to vent about an eck relationship gone bad, so what. There may
        be something worth learning and discussing. I usually save my attacks
        for those who are obviously attempting to do eck vahana work or are
        trying to make out that eckankar and it's beliefs are real, rather
        than plagiarized authoritarian destructive CULT Crap. I understand
        having to delete certain posts so as to not turn the group into an
        eckist forum in disguise.

        As far as the "victim consciousness", I see it as a term that is used
        too often as a put down and it's a little New Age for me. It implies
        that all are Cause 100% of the time and this imo is very ECKANKARish
        to me. I am reminded of how people make fun the add where the old
        woman is laying on the floor crying out, "Help, I've fallen and can't
        get up." While there is some humor in it at times for younger people
        (like myself : )) I have had the experience several times where I
        actually had to help people get up off the ground, and it was a very
        terrifying experience for them. One man even had a dislocated hip, in
        his own apartment. He was very emabarrassed. Should I have lectured
        him on his "victim consciousness". NO! The odd thing is that at the
        time I was an Eckist and fortunately common sense took over in an
        emergency.

        By the way I'm all for birth control and also a sense of humor, and
        constructive critisism.

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
        <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi All,
        > Isn't it nice to be free from Eckankar and all of those lies
        > that leave Eckists hanging onto hope while they putter
        > away their lives in their own private little worlds of delusion.
        > Happy Independence!
        >
        > On another note: It is interesting that a person came here
        > (Marla) to share their opinion of the negative "romantic"
        > relationship with one of Klemp's H.I.s. And, this one-sided
        > view did seem to put the H.I. Eckankar Cleric in a bad
        > light according to his jilted ex-girlfriend. Apparently, Marla
        > thinks the anti-Eckankar sites are a good place to air the
        > dirty laundry, to get even, to inform others of this bad behaviour,
        > or just vent her anger. Afterall, these H.I.s are supposed to be
        > more "spiritual" than mere mortals, as well as, other Souls.
        > Marla did take a positive suggestion and changed her pseudonym
        > from marlasobbing to marlapretendgasp, although, I'm puzzled
        > at the second choice. Anyway, there were some things said to
        > Marla that could have been said in a more diplomatic or
        > politically correct way and was not... for that I apologize.
        >
        > in another case we had a former h.i. ride in on his white horse
        > to rescue the damsel in distress. it seemed like he thought he
        > was still a swordsman for the sugmad. lol! There will be no further
        > explanations or discussions on this matter or subjects related to
        > this.
        >
        > In two other cases a Zoey True, and a Rowan Oak came in
        > to further undermine the site with negative posts that were
        > deleted. Zoey, also, sent nasty, rude, crude, and even lewd
        > private e-mails to some site members. This is one reason why
        > Liz posted what she did on the public forum (ESA) rather than
        > to Zoey privately. Zoey's private e-mails were insightful ONLY
        > in that they showed his/her true character, as well as, a below
        > average intelligence and spiritual growth. However, it does seem
        > that Zoey True and Rowan Oak are the same person due to the
        > similar e-mails being sent (and deleted) with their intentional
        > attempt to shut this site down.
        >
        >
        > BTW-Leaf: The reason your post did not go up is because I requested
        > that they be reviewed first by me. Liz seemed to want to reply to you,
        > in part, on this site. However, if you want to discuss your deleted post
        > further with her then you should e-mail her privately.
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
      • marlaprendergast
        Again, I feel I must correct the record regarding my presence on ... behaviour, ... No, that is false. I have stated repeatedly the reason I came on this site
        Message 3 of 10 , Jul 2, 2007
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          Again, I feel I must correct the record regarding my presence on
          this site, which apparently is considered controversial and annoying:

          > Apparently, Marla
          > thinks the anti-Eckankar sites are a good place to air the
          > dirty laundry, to get even, to inform others of this bad
          behaviour,
          > or just vent her anger.

          No, that is false. I have stated repeatedly the reason I came on
          this site was to discern whether the less than stellar integrity of
          my ex-BF was common to those who claim to reach a high level of
          spirituality in Eckankar. I'm not going to rehash my reasoning
          again. I'm rather tired of it. Go back and look if you are curious.

          > Marla did take a positive suggestion and changed her pseudonym
          > from marlasobbing to marlapretendgasp, although, I'm puzzled
          > at the second choice.

          Again, this is false. This really amazes me. Can you not see that my
          name is "Marla Prendergast"? The phrase "Marla Pretendgasp" is Liz's
          attempt to mock my name, and now you are claiming that I chose it? I
          must add that I just found out that Liz is actually a moderator of
          this group. That just blows my mind. I expect random attacks such as
          hers from wayward members on forums who come in to rile people up
          and spew nonsense. I had no idea she actually held a position of
          responsibility on this site. Wow.

          Lastly, in the last few days there have been accusations of abusive
          private emails going back and forth between members. Both prometheus
          and liz have somewhat justified their critical posts by saying they
          are the victims of such emails. I don't know if they were referring
          to me as a sender of one of these emails, but I want to make it
          perfectly clear that I have never sent a private email attacking
          anyone here or on any site. I challenge anyone who claims I did to
          present it here.

          I would also again like to thank leafeater for his sage posts. He
          has hit the nail right on the head.
        • prometheus_973
          Hi Non ekster, It seems weird to me as well! It started with Marlasobbing coming over here from ET. She, apparently, wanted to share (with more people) her
          Message 4 of 10 , Jul 2, 2007
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            Hi Non ekster,
            It seems weird to me as well! It started with Marlasobbing
            coming over here from ET. She, apparently, wanted to share
            (with more people) her frustrations, anger, and some negative
            information about her ex-6th Initiate boyfriend and that he
            wasn't very "spiritual" since he carried a condom next to his
            Eck I.D. card, and that he cheated on her with hookers! Of
            course, I don't know how she really knew about the condom,
            the cheating, or the hookers, but it was a juicy story about a
            male H.I. misbehaving (which is really nothing new for either
            gender for Eckists in general). She, also, mentioned how he
            had taken her for an E.S.A. session and that she liked this
            female H.I. and, basically, said that the E.S.A. was very
            convincing with her silver tongue and friendly demeanor.

            I don't see that the term Victim Consciousness is always a
            New Age term, especially, when it's applied to the wrong
            "relationship" choices that we make. Sometimes the rejected
            person will place all blame on the other person while not taking
            responsibility for making a bad choice, seeing the signs, and
            admitting they screwed up. Closing one's eyes to the truth and
            then blaming the other person or someone else, to me, is a form
            of Victim Consciousness. It's kind of like how some women will
            choose "bad boys" and then not take responsibility for it or fail
            to (and refuse to) look into the "why" and then taking the steps
            to correct their destructive decision making processes. Life becomes
            one long drama or soap opera for some people. Maybe they enjoy
            the attention too! I'm not saying this was what Marla was doing,
            but it seemed like it was possible and after awhile. It wasn't like
            it was a super long relationship (one year) IMO. Plus, she still saw
            it in a "romantic" way! That's why I agreed with Liz and said that
            it was seeming like this was a one-sided version (of the truth)
            from a woman scorned. I know that I should not have "talked about"
            Marla nor made this observation or assumption, but then again it
            reminded me of situations in the past where I saw others caught in
            similar circumstances and one heard only one side of the relationship
            story.

            Leaf then came to Marla's defense while being unaware of Zoey's
            neg. involvment. Zoey (he/she) got very nasty on the site and privately.
            There was also confusion with what was said to whom. I was unable
            to discuss this with Leaf privately because he had already formed an
            opinion. I put Leaf on temporary moderated status because I didn't
            want to keep the discussion escalating. Unfortunately Liz (Co-moderator)
            read a pending message and replied to it in part. This created even
            more disharmony which became impossible to resolve.

            Anyway, it was an interesting learning experience. I admit that
            there were mistakes made (people aren't perfect) and that it could
            have been done better and kinder and there could have been more
            tolerance and consideration given to one another. So for that, on my
            part, I apologize to Marla and to everyone.

            Prometheus
            p.s. I do appreciate Liz being a Co-moderator and taking care of
            the sites while I am away. Thanks Liz!




            "Non ekster" wrote:
            >
            > Well this is all seeming very weird to me. If there is anyone I
            > greatly respect as a poster on many of these ex eckankar sites, it is
            > Leaf or Kent. Anonymous is in the main title of this group, so I could
            > see that there would be an opportunity for anyone to post here either
            > sincerely or not. But I have never come across a post by Kent that I
            > recall ever needing to be deleted or edited. He is definitely a non
            > eckist and I actually agree with much of what he has to say. I also
            > find it odd that with all of the intelligent posts I've read here that
            > Kent would be slandered several times for appearing to be too
            > intelligent. lol Some people are more dramatic than others. If someone
            > wants to vent about an eck relationship gone bad, so what. There may
            > be something worth learning and discussing. I usually save my attacks
            > for those who are obviously attempting to do eck vahana work or are
            > trying to make out that eckankar and it's beliefs are real, rather
            > than plagiarized authoritarian destructive CULT Crap. I understand
            > having to delete certain posts so as to not turn the group into an
            > eckist forum in disguise.
            >
            > As far as the "victim consciousness", I see it as a term that is used
            > too often as a put down and it's a little New Age for me. It implies
            > that all are Cause 100% of the time and this imo is very ECKANKARish
            > to me. I am reminded of how people make fun the add where the old
            > woman is laying on the floor crying out, "Help, I've fallen and can't
            > get up." While there is some humor in it at times for younger people
            > (like myself : )) I have had the experience several times where I
            > actually had to help people get up off the ground, and it was a very
            > terrifying experience for them. One man even had a dislocated hip, in
            > his own apartment. He was very emabarrassed. Should I have lectured
            > him on his "victim consciousness". NO! The odd thing is that at the
            > time I was an Eckist and fortunately common sense took over in an
            > emergency.
            >
            > By the way I'm all for birth control and also a sense of humor, and
            > constructive critisism.
            >
            > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
            > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi All,
            > > Isn't it nice to be free from Eckankar and all of those lies
            > > that leave Eckists hanging onto hope while they putter
            > > away their lives in their own private little worlds of delusion.
            > > Happy Independence!
            > >
            > > On another note: It is interesting that a person came here
            > > (Marla) to share their opinion of the negative "romantic"
            > > relationship with one of Klemp's H.I.s. And, this one-sided
            > > view did seem to put the H.I. Eckankar Cleric in a bad
            > > light according to his jilted ex-girlfriend. Apparently, Marla
            > > thinks the anti-Eckankar sites are a good place to air the
            > > dirty laundry, to get even, to inform others of this bad behaviour,
            > > or just vent her anger. Afterall, these H.I.s are supposed to be
            > > more "spiritual" than mere mortals, as well as, other Souls.
            > > Marla did take a positive suggestion and changed her pseudonym
            > > from marlasobbing to marlapretendgasp, although, I'm puzzled
            > > at the second choice. Anyway, there were some things said to
            > > Marla that could have been said in a more diplomatic or
            > > politically correct way and was not... for that I apologize.
            > >
            > > in another case we had a former h.i. ride in on his white horse
            > > to rescue the damsel in distress. it seemed like he thought he
            > > was still a swordsman for the sugmad. lol! There will be no further
            > > explanations or discussions on this matter or subjects related to
            > > this.
            > >
            > > In two other cases a Zoey True, and a Rowan Oak came in
            > > to further undermine the site with negative posts that were
            > > deleted. Zoey, also, sent nasty, rude, crude, and even lewd
            > > private e-mails to some site members. This is one reason why
            > > Liz posted what she did on the public forum (ESA) rather than
            > > to Zoey privately. Zoey's private e-mails were insightful ONLY
            > > in that they showed his/her true character, as well as, a below
            > > average intelligence and spiritual growth. However, it does seem
            > > that Zoey True and Rowan Oak are the same person due to the
            > > similar e-mails being sent (and deleted) with their intentional
            > > attempt to shut this site down.
            > >
            > >
            > > BTW-Leaf: The reason your post did not go up is because I requested
            > > that they be reviewed first by me. Liz seemed to want to reply to you,
            > > in part, on this site. However, if you want to discuss your deleted post
            > > further with her then you should e-mail her privately.
            > >
            > > Prometheus
            > >
            >
          • prometheus_973
            Hi Marla, Thanks for posting your comments to help clear the air. It was actually Zoey that was sending the nasty private e-mails. I, also, didn t appove a
            Message 5 of 10 , Jul 2, 2007
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              Hi Marla,
              Thanks for posting your comments to help clear the air.
              It was actually Zoey that was sending the nasty private
              e-mails. I, also, didn't appove a nasty post by Rowan (Zoey).
              See, how there was confusion as to who said what and to
              whom! I'm sorry about the confusion and anything else
              that was misconstrued.

              It is true that Eckists do view H.I.s as being Godlike, or
              even higher/greater than the 4th Plane "GOD" of all the
              other religions (excluding Eckankar's of course). And, this
              is why such conduct of cheating with a hooker and having
              a condom next to his Eck I.D. is shocking... I guess. Except,
              most Eckists know that this behaviour Does exist because
              they see it! The Eck "sisterhood" shares all of this information
              amongst themselves. However, this behaviour is rationalized
              like all other ones from a Religious/Dogmatic point of view.
              H.I.s are exempt from responsibility... they not only go with
              God... they are greater than God! But, just look around at the
              religious fundamentalists of other religions... they all see
              themselves as right and above others. Therefore, this arrogance
              and delusion of spiritual piety is growing in the world amongst
              its closed-mined holier-than-thou religious followers (It seems
              that there are more narcissists in the world too). At least Eck
              vahanas aren't murdering people that won't convert... now! LOL!
              However, what would happen if they had the power and numbers
              on their side?

              You see, it's all about conforming! This is what the religious
              fundamentalists want... (and the narcissists) they want to control
              people by having them believe in their way of thinking. I really
              don't see why Eckists aren't realizing this either! Look at those
              spoken and unspoken "rules" and all of those Guidelines. These
              are meant to keep Eckists under control and to have them all think
              alike by conforming to the religious dogma. The Irony is that most
              Eckists see themselves as Non-Comformists and free thinkers!

              Anyway, as far as why Liz responded to you as she did... I'll let her
              explain that because I'm not sure what she thinks she saw or read
              that raised some doubt about the intent or value behind your post.
              Once again, Sorry, on my part!

              Prometheus



              "marlaprendergast" wrote:
              >
              > Again, I feel I must correct the record regarding my presence on
              > this site, which apparently is considered controversial and annoying:
              >
              > > Apparently, Marla
              > > thinks the anti-Eckankar sites are a good place to air the
              > > dirty laundry, to get even, to inform others of this bad
              > behaviour,
              > > or just vent her anger.
              >
              > No, that is false. I have stated repeatedly the reason I came on
              > this site was to discern whether the less than stellar integrity of
              > my ex-BF was common to those who claim to reach a high level of
              > spirituality in Eckankar. I'm not going to rehash my reasoning
              > again. I'm rather tired of it. Go back and look if you are curious.
              >
              > > Marla did take a positive suggestion and changed her pseudonym
              > > from marlasobbing to marlapretendgasp, although, I'm puzzled
              > > at the second choice.
              >
              > Again, this is false. This really amazes me. Can you not see that my
              > name is "Marla Prendergast"? The phrase "Marla Pretendgasp" is Liz's
              > attempt to mock my name, and now you are claiming that I chose it? I
              > must add that I just found out that Liz is actually a moderator of
              > this group. That just blows my mind. I expect random attacks such as
              > hers from wayward members on forums who come in to rile people up
              > and spew nonsense. I had no idea she actually held a position of
              > responsibility on this site. Wow.
              >
              > Lastly, in the last few days there have been accusations of abusive
              > private emails going back and forth between members. Both prometheus
              > and liz have somewhat justified their critical posts by saying they
              > are the victims of such emails. I don't know if they were referring
              > to me as a sender of one of these emails, but I want to make it
              > perfectly clear that I have never sent a private email attacking
              > anyone here or on any site. I challenge anyone who claims I did to
              > present it here.
              >
              > I would also again like to thank leafeater for his sage posts. He
              > has hit the nail right on the head.
              >
            • Elizabeth
              Hi Marla, Please read message #2687 which I posted below, It was a reply to you, along with questions I had for you. Maybe you missed this particular message?
              Message 6 of 10 , Jul 2, 2007
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                Hi Marla,

                Please read message #2687 which I posted below, It was a reply to
                you, along with questions I had for you. Maybe you missed this
                particular message? At any rate, the questions were posted to get an
                idea of your history from this ex HI bf.

                One thing I would really like to know is how the Eck members would
                react if you had gone to an eckankar yahoo group such as Hu-Chat and
                asked them the same questions? And if you do ask them (current
                eckists) please share your experience. Anyway, it was my attempt at
                having a conversation to clear the air, give you the chance to share
                your story in more depth. My chance to ask questions that might allow
                you the chance again to share your experience, and for me to listen.

                You will see I also responded to Zoey in this same post. As
                Prometheus shared, he/she was sending private nasty messages to the
                group, and privately. Neither Prometheus, nor I initiated any of
                these private conversations with him/her, nor did we actually provoke
                some of the posts that was sent to ESA and moderated, at least to my
                knowlege. I went back and looked over my initial comments to his/her
                9Zoey's) questions, and apparently they were not read by him/her?
                This individual got nasty first, on the skirts of posts made by you.

                Doing further research and comparing posts, IDs, and when an
                individual signed up and joined / left the group, what type of
                program was being used to mask the origination of posts privately and
                to the group, (which were moderated) yes three differing IDs and
                posters (which two of them being one person) did get addressed in one
                post.

                I do appologise for including my comments to Zoey, or even Leaf in
                the same post as the one to you. Not a good excuse I guess, but I am
                rather busy and was attempting to make my life easier by only
                presenting one message. I won't do that again.

                I do not feel the need to explain myself to Leaf, which is exactly
                what I intended for him to understand. It was suggested to him by
                Prometheus to contact us (me) privately, yet Leaf did not, and it
                appears he also did not take what Prometheus shared with him
                (privately) as enough proof to warrent how Zoey was handled.

                I also was an admirer of Leaf's excellent sage posts, but when an
                individual DEMANDS anything of me, when it does not concern them,
                they will come up against a brick wall.

                And for the record, I didn't edit a post or the wording which was
                sent (but not approved) though I did use portions to answer Leaf's
                questions. The rest was left out due to the nature of the nasty ness
                He can claim what ever he wishes, here or on ET. I have nothing
                further to debate with him. BTW, I haven't posted on ET in a very
                long time!

                Anyway, below is a copy of the questions I had concerning your post
                about integrity. A portion of the post was directed to others
                besides yourself, of which I explained the reasoning in this post, as
                well in posts in answer to Leaf, Zoey and Rowan_Oak22. If Leaf
                wishes to continue dialog with any of these individuals privately,
                that is his business. But I do not feel the need to prove, provide or
                justify myself to him!

                Again, please understand I am curious and the questions were with
                good intent.

                Liz

                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                Message #2687

                Sharon ;-) Re: integrity


                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "marlaprendergast"
                <kws11@...> wrote:

                > You are completely missing my point. I came on this forum to find
                > out if there was a pervasive pattern in Eckankar of people
                > justifying dishonest sleazy behavior by claiming that it led to
                > their "spiritual unfoldment."


                *** I'll give you that much Marla... and then I would also ask you
                this; Did you go to any of the Eckankar sites and ask this of their
                members? There are several HIs that frequent Hu-chat, I bet you
                could ask them that same question you came to the ex eck sites and
                asked. :-) Let us know how that goes....



                > I was in an allegedly committed
                > relationship with this person who claimed to be a spiritually
                > advanced HI Cleric and he was cheating on me with paid hookers. I
                > was curious as to whether he just a fake Eckist, or whether
                Eckankar
                > is fake.


                *** It wasn't all that long ago when a well known TV evangelical
                christian was exposed for hiring gay hooker / hookers, and had
                previously claimed it was an immoral type of behavior and sinfull.
                Now I ask you, what makes that guy, and your ex any different? It
                happens all the time!


                > Please don't comment on my integrity. You don't even know me.


                *** I was commenting on my integrity.


                And by the way, "Zoey" doesn't know me or any of my ex eck husbands!
                (All 2 of them) That is because they were nobodies in the eck
                community! Most all of the eckists in the community didn't know
                them, since they (the ex husbands) very rarely (if at all)
                participated in ANY functions! Dropping a name or a comment/s that
                they think will give the impression they KNOW something about me or
                my life, doesn't effect me in the slightest!

                How hard is it to create a fake ID, go to the ex eck chat groups, or
                a.r.e., read other peoples comments concerning eckankrap, then call
                it their own! Here is an example; Sharon from ET has shared how
                Cheryl Grundy doesn't know an SK quote, from a made up one. My
                point; Zoey came here to ESA not too many months ago claiming the
                very same thing, same story nearly word for word, or was that fishnik
                (?) however s/he spelled their fake ID? Or hey here is a scenerio,
                maybe Zoey is Sharon? ;-)))) Sharon I hope you are reading this!?
                LOL

                So how is that workin for you Zoey_true? OR shall we call you
                Cheryl, or maybe it's Rich?



                > I'm not sure what you are saying there. I don't believe in the
                > mahanta, so I obviously wouldn't think that way, even as a joke.


                *** I wasn't joking, I was pointing out how the HIs and eckies excuse
                away their own behavior! I have even heard other eckies question how
                on earth Harold could appoint so and so as an ESA, when all she was
                was a slut, stealing other eck women's husbands. LOL The comment by
                the RESA was, "well, maybe the LEM feels this position will teach her
                an important lesson concerning her own behavior, or maybe she still
                has some karma to work off in that area"! (I kid you not!)


                > > "Marla PreTenderGasp"
                >
                > Please explain why you are mocking my name. Do you doubt my motives
                > here?


                *** Honestly? Yes. Especially the fact that you comment about your
                ex keeping his membership card right next to the condom.... was that
                important to you? The fact that the membership card is slipped in
                with the condom? And if so, why does that particular point bother
                you? How about sharing your history with this individual prior to
                the break up.... how were you impacted by his being an eck member,
                and why did you buy into thinking he was somebody special just
                because he was an HI, and his membership card said so. Did your ex
                boyfriend lead you to believe he was some super special person within
                the organization? How did you come to understand what an HI even
                represents, and did you look up to your boyfriend? Had you ever heard
                of Eckankar prior to meeting your HI boyfriend?

                You wrote: I was in an allegedly committed relationship with this
                person who claimed to be a spiritually advanced HI Cleric and he was
                cheating on me with paid hookers. I was curious as to whether he was
                just a fake Eckist, or whether Eckankar is fake.


                *** Now why would you question whether Eckankar was fake? Did you
                begin to buy into the BS? Did you do any investigating of the
                teachings before breaking it off with your ex boyfriend? Or did you
                break it off because of the comment he made about paying hookers.....


                I wrote:
                > If you felt so upset about this ex HI boyfriend,
                > > and had information that he is / was frequenting hookers, don't
                > you feel
                > > some sort of obligation to the community of eckies, to at least
                > report him
                > > to the RESA of the State?

                [Note] this should have said in my original post,
                You wrote:
                >
                > Again, I don't believe in Eckankar and have no reason to go to the
                > RESA, whoever that is.


                *** A question; If you were with this guy for a year, I assume you
                attended eck functions? Got to know some of the members... did you
                believe in eckankrap then, or just going along with it because you
                cared about this guy?


                I wrote:
                > > I would even go as far as reporting this to the
                > > Law Enforcement agency, so that they might set up a sting
                > operation to
                > > capture and take these people off the streets. In turn this just
                > might get
                > > your ex caught with his pants down....
                > >


                You wrote:
                > I'm not sure what you are getting at here.


                *** It is very self explanitory what I was getting at. The guy was
                breaking a law! If you were that concerned about him having done this
                to you, (and trying to find out if he is for real or if eck is fake),
                report his actions to Law Enforcement and get these people off
                the street! And in the process, they might catch him with his pants
                down... in other words, in a compromising possition!



                > What I was sharing, which you apparently missed, is an experience
                > with a person who buys into the bullshit Eckankar spiritual
                > arrogance. And frankly I think that my story actually contributes
                to
                > the dialogue about "the truth behind the lies", because it
                > exemplifies the disingenuous nature of a "religion" that justifies
                > bad behavior under the rubric of spiritual growth.


                *** So did you come to this conclussion before or after the ex bf? I
                didn't miss your point, just wondering how you came to it? How would
                you know how an HI is suppose to behave? I'm wondering what the wife
                of that famous christian that got ratted out by his ex gay lover,
                feels? Does she think he is still spiritual or higher than anyone
                else? Did this guy have the same arrogance as your ex bf? It will
                be interesting to hear her side of the story! Wonder if she will
                attempt to fix her marriage, or research and bash him? "No disrespect"
                here intended really, though I am sure Leaf can't wait to get ahold
                of me! ;-) All these questions are intended to allow you the chance
                to enlighten others of your experience.


                You wrote:
                > I don't need a counselor, thanks. But you might want to
                > consult one to figure out why you felt the need to launch into a
                > personal attack on an individual who was merely trying to
                > understand her experience with an amoral Eckist.


                *** Did you ask him to clarify his amoral eckist behavior? Did you
                point out you didn't feel solisiting hookers was very spiritual?
                Really, I would like to know what he may or may not have said to
                these questions!?


                You originally wrote:
                > > -------Original Message-------
                > >
                > > From: marlaprendergast
                > > Date: 6/25/2007 10:14:38 PM
                > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: integrity
                > >
                > > My ex-BF is a cleric as well. He has a card in his wallet that
                says
                > > he's a clergy member. The card is right up against a condom he
                > keeps
                > > there for when he picks up hookers.


                *** To be honest I am surprised he didn't claim he was paying these
                hookers, so he could get them in a room and give them an introductory
                talk on eckankrap! ;-)


                By The Way Zoey, for your info I am one of the moderators of this
                group! So don't blame Prometheus for everything that goes on here!
                How's that workin for you Zoey?

                Oh, and before I forget; Welcome to the group Rowan_oak22...
                interesting that you just created your account the very day Zoey left
                us! See how spirit works? One leaves and we are replaced with
                another member. :-) Wonder if this is a waking dream?

                Liz,

                Who was a 6th, Initiator and ESA, and a member for over 30 years,
                both parents work/ed at ESC and know Joan and Harold personally. BTW,
                I was actually invited back to the teaching! ;-) So much for your
                threats Zoey!


                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Marla,
                > Thanks for posting your comments to help clear the air.
                > It was actually Zoey that was sending the nasty private
                > e-mails. I, also, didn't appove a nasty post by Rowan (Zoey).
                > See, how there was confusion as to who said what and to
                > whom! I'm sorry about the confusion and anything else
                > that was misconstrued.
                >
                > It is true that Eckists do view H.I.s as being Godlike, or
                > even higher/greater than the 4th Plane "GOD" of all the
                > other religions (excluding Eckankar's of course). And, this
                > is why such conduct of cheating with a hooker and having
                > a condom next to his Eck I.D. is shocking... I guess. Except,
                > most Eckists know that this behaviour Does exist because
                > they see it! The Eck "sisterhood" shares all of this information
                > amongst themselves. However, this behaviour is rationalized
                > like all other ones from a Religious/Dogmatic point of view.
                > H.I.s are exempt from responsibility... they not only go with
                > God... they are greater than God! But, just look around at the
                > religious fundamentalists of other religions... they all see
                > themselves as right and above others. Therefore, this arrogance
                > and delusion of spiritual piety is growing in the world amongst
                > its closed-mined holier-than-thou religious followers (It seems
                > that there are more narcissists in the world too). At least Eck
                > vahanas aren't murdering people that won't convert... now! LOL!
                > However, what would happen if they had the power and numbers
                > on their side?
                >
                > You see, it's all about conforming! This is what the religious
                > fundamentalists want... (and the narcissists) they want to control
                > people by having them believe in their way of thinking. I really
                > don't see why Eckists aren't realizing this either! Look at those
                > spoken and unspoken "rules" and all of those Guidelines. These
                > are meant to keep Eckists under control and to have them all think
                > alike by conforming to the religious dogma. The Irony is that most
                > Eckists see themselves as Non-Comformists and free thinkers!
                >
                > Anyway, as far as why Liz responded to you as she did... I'll let
                her
                > explain that because I'm not sure what she thinks she saw or read
                > that raised some doubt about the intent or value behind your post.
                > Once again, Sorry, on my part!
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                >
                >
                > "marlaprendergast" wrote:
                > >
                > > Again, I feel I must correct the record regarding my presence on
                > > this site, which apparently is considered controversial and
                annoying:
                > >
                > > > Apparently, Marla
                > > > thinks the anti-Eckankar sites are a good place to air the
                > > > dirty laundry, to get even, to inform others of this bad
                > > behaviour,
                > > > or just vent her anger.
                > >
                > > No, that is false. I have stated repeatedly the reason I came on
                > > this site was to discern whether the less than stellar integrity
                of
                > > my ex-BF was common to those who claim to reach a high level of
                > > spirituality in Eckankar. I'm not going to rehash my reasoning
                > > again. I'm rather tired of it. Go back and look if you are
                curious.
                > >
                > > > Marla did take a positive suggestion and changed her pseudonym
                > > > from marlasobbing to marlapretendgasp, although, I'm puzzled
                > > > at the second choice.
                > >
                > > Again, this is false. This really amazes me. Can you not see that
                my
                > > name is "Marla Prendergast"? The phrase "Marla Pretendgasp" is
                Liz's
                > > attempt to mock my name, and now you are claiming that I chose
                it? I
                > > must add that I just found out that Liz is actually a moderator
                of
                > > this group. That just blows my mind. I expect random attacks such
                as
                > > hers from wayward members on forums who come in to rile people up
                > > and spew nonsense. I had no idea she actually held a position of
                > > responsibility on this site. Wow.
                > >
                > > Lastly, in the last few days there have been accusations of
                abusive
                > > private emails going back and forth between members. Both
                prometheus
                > > and liz have somewhat justified their critical posts by saying
                they
                > > are the victims of such emails. I don't know if they were
                referring
                > > to me as a sender of one of these emails, but I want to make it
                > > perfectly clear that I have never sent a private email attacking
                > > anyone here or on any site. I challenge anyone who claims I did
                to
                > > present it here.
                > >
                > > I would also again like to thank leafeater for his sage posts. He
                > > has hit the nail right on the head.
                > >
                >
              • marlaprendergast
                Sorry, I thought your questions were rhetorical so I didn t answer them but I will do so now if you wish. 1) No, I have never gone to an eckankar yahoo group
                Message 7 of 10 , Jul 2, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  Sorry, I thought your questions were rhetorical so I didn't answer
                  them but I will do so now if you wish.

                  1) No, I have never gone to an eckankar yahoo group such as Hu-chat
                  to ask these questions. I suppose I could, but its really not that
                  important to me at this time. Maybe I will at some point.

                  2) I know about the TV evangelical Christian who was exposed for
                  hiring gay hookers and had previously claimed it was immoral and
                  sinful. You asked if that that guy and my ex are the same. Yes and
                  no. My ex has never claimed his errant behaviors were sinful.
                  Rather, he feels they enhance his spirituality because he is not
                  bogged down in conventional notions of morality. However, the two
                  men are similar because they both claim to be highly spiritual yet
                  they engage in morally questionable behavior. To me, paying for
                  anonymous sex, or having anonymous sex with strangers for free is
                  morally questionable. I suppose some people disagree with that, but
                  that's just my belief.

                  3) I won't comment about fake ids, changing personas, etc. because
                  it doesn't apply to me and I've never done it. I guess you weren't
                  directing that at me anyway.

                  4) I never bought into Eckankar. I had never heard of it til I met
                  my ex. I did not do any investigation really. I went to some eck
                  events basically to accompany him. I thought it was interesting but
                  I never really got it. I didn't break up with him because of
                  Eckankar. I broke up with him because he was not the person he
                  claimed to be.

                  5) Again, I did go to Eck functions. I thought the people were a
                  little weird but basically harmless. I really liked the ESA I went
                  to. I never believed in Eckankar, I just learned about it through
                  him and reading occasionally some stuff at his house. I've dabbled
                  in several ideologies and this was just one I looked into but not
                  very seriously.

                  6) You asked how would I know how an HI is supposed to behave? I
                  guess I just assumed that a person who claimed to be highly
                  spiritual would show some semblance of spirituality.

                  7) I did ask him to clarify his amoral eckist bahaviors. He doesn't
                  consider his behaviors to be amoral. That was the problem. His view
                  is, its just sex, it doesn't mean I love you any less, etc. etc.
                  That was enough for me to get out.

                  Hope I've answered all your questions.

                  Marla Prendergast


                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth"
                  <ewickings@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Marla,
                  >
                  > Please read message #2687 which I posted below, It was a reply to
                  > you, along with questions I had for you. Maybe you missed this
                  > particular message? At any rate, the questions were posted to get
                  an
                  > idea of your history from this ex HI bf.
                  >
                  > One thing I would really like to know is how the Eck members would
                  > react if you had gone to an eckankar yahoo group such as Hu-Chat
                  and
                  > asked them the same questions? And if you do ask them (current
                  > eckists) please share your experience. Anyway, it was my attempt
                  at
                  > having a conversation to clear the air, give you the chance to
                  share
                  > your story in more depth. My chance to ask questions that might
                  allow
                  > you the chance again to share your experience, and for me to
                  listen.
                  >
                  > You will see I also responded to Zoey in this same post. As
                  > Prometheus shared, he/she was sending private nasty messages to
                  the
                  > group, and privately. Neither Prometheus, nor I initiated any of
                  > these private conversations with him/her, nor did we actually
                  provoke
                  > some of the posts that was sent to ESA and moderated, at least to
                  my
                  > knowlege. I went back and looked over my initial comments to
                  his/her
                  > 9Zoey's) questions, and apparently they were not read by him/her?
                  > This individual got nasty first, on the skirts of posts made by
                  you.
                  >
                  > Doing further research and comparing posts, IDs, and when an
                  > individual signed up and joined / left the group, what type of
                  > program was being used to mask the origination of posts privately
                  and
                  > to the group, (which were moderated) yes three differing IDs and
                  > posters (which two of them being one person) did get addressed in
                  one
                  > post.
                  >
                  > I do appologise for including my comments to Zoey, or even Leaf in
                  > the same post as the one to you. Not a good excuse I guess, but I
                  am
                  > rather busy and was attempting to make my life easier by only
                  > presenting one message. I won't do that again.
                  >
                  > I do not feel the need to explain myself to Leaf, which is exactly
                  > what I intended for him to understand. It was suggested to him by
                  > Prometheus to contact us (me) privately, yet Leaf did not, and it
                  > appears he also did not take what Prometheus shared with him
                  > (privately) as enough proof to warrent how Zoey was handled.
                  >
                  > I also was an admirer of Leaf's excellent sage posts, but when an
                  > individual DEMANDS anything of me, when it does not concern them,
                  > they will come up against a brick wall.
                  >
                  > And for the record, I didn't edit a post or the wording which was
                  > sent (but not approved) though I did use portions to answer Leaf's
                  > questions. The rest was left out due to the nature of the nasty
                  ness
                  > He can claim what ever he wishes, here or on ET. I have nothing
                  > further to debate with him. BTW, I haven't posted on ET in a very
                  > long time!
                  >
                  > Anyway, below is a copy of the questions I had concerning your
                  post
                  > about integrity. A portion of the post was directed to others
                  > besides yourself, of which I explained the reasoning in this post,
                  as
                  > well in posts in answer to Leaf, Zoey and Rowan_Oak22. If Leaf
                  > wishes to continue dialog with any of these individuals privately,
                  > that is his business. But I do not feel the need to prove, provide
                  or
                  > justify myself to him!
                  >
                  > Again, please understand I am curious and the questions were with
                  > good intent.
                  >
                  > Liz
                  >
                  > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                  > Message #2687
                  >
                  > Sharon ;-) Re: integrity
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In
                  EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "marlaprendergast"
                  > <kws11@> wrote:
                  >
                  > > You are completely missing my point. I came on this forum to find
                  > > out if there was a pervasive pattern in Eckankar of people
                  > > justifying dishonest sleazy behavior by claiming that it led to
                  > > their "spiritual unfoldment."
                  >
                  >
                  > *** I'll give you that much Marla... and then I would also ask you
                  > this; Did you go to any of the Eckankar sites and ask this of their
                  > members? There are several HIs that frequent Hu-chat, I bet you
                  > could ask them that same question you came to the ex eck sites and
                  > asked. :-) Let us know how that goes....
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > > I was in an allegedly committed
                  > > relationship with this person who claimed to be a spiritually
                  > > advanced HI Cleric and he was cheating on me with paid hookers. I
                  > > was curious as to whether he just a fake Eckist, or whether
                  > Eckankar
                  > > is fake.
                  >
                  >
                  > *** It wasn't all that long ago when a well known TV evangelical
                  > christian was exposed for hiring gay hooker / hookers, and had
                  > previously claimed it was an immoral type of behavior and sinfull.
                  > Now I ask you, what makes that guy, and your ex any different? It
                  > happens all the time!
                  >
                  >
                  > > Please don't comment on my integrity. You don't even know me.
                  >
                  >
                  > *** I was commenting on my integrity.
                  >
                  >
                  > And by the way, "Zoey" doesn't know me or any of my ex eck
                  husbands!
                  > (All 2 of them) That is because they were nobodies in the eck
                  > community! Most all of the eckists in the community didn't know
                  > them, since they (the ex husbands) very rarely (if at all)
                  > participated in ANY functions! Dropping a name or a comment/s that
                  > they think will give the impression they KNOW something about me or
                  > my life, doesn't effect me in the slightest!
                  >
                  > How hard is it to create a fake ID, go to the ex eck chat groups,
                  or
                  > a.r.e., read other peoples comments concerning eckankrap, then call
                  > it their own! Here is an example; Sharon from ET has shared how
                  > Cheryl Grundy doesn't know an SK quote, from a made up one. My
                  > point; Zoey came here to ESA not too many months ago claiming the
                  > very same thing, same story nearly word for word, or was that
                  fishnik
                  > (?) however s/he spelled their fake ID? Or hey here is a scenerio,
                  > maybe Zoey is Sharon? ;-)))) Sharon I hope you are reading this!?
                  > LOL
                  >
                  > So how is that workin for you Zoey_true? OR shall we call you
                  > Cheryl, or maybe it's Rich?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > > I'm not sure what you are saying there. I don't believe in the
                  > > mahanta, so I obviously wouldn't think that way, even as a joke.
                  >
                  >
                  > *** I wasn't joking, I was pointing out how the HIs and eckies
                  excuse
                  > away their own behavior! I have even heard other eckies question
                  how
                  > on earth Harold could appoint so and so as an ESA, when all she was
                  > was a slut, stealing other eck women's husbands. LOL The comment by
                  > the RESA was, "well, maybe the LEM feels this position will teach
                  her
                  > an important lesson concerning her own behavior, or maybe she still
                  > has some karma to work off in that area"! (I kid you not!)
                  >
                  >
                  > > > "Marla PreTenderGasp"
                  > >
                  > > Please explain why you are mocking my name. Do you doubt my
                  motives
                  > > here?
                  >
                  >
                  > *** Honestly? Yes. Especially the fact that you comment about your
                  > ex keeping his membership card right next to the condom.... was
                  that
                  > important to you? The fact that the membership card is slipped in
                  > with the condom? And if so, why does that particular point bother
                  > you? How about sharing your history with this individual prior to
                  > the break up.... how were you impacted by his being an eck member,
                  > and why did you buy into thinking he was somebody special just
                  > because he was an HI, and his membership card said so. Did your ex
                  > boyfriend lead you to believe he was some super special person
                  within
                  > the organization? How did you come to understand what an HI even
                  > represents, and did you look up to your boyfriend? Had you ever
                  heard
                  > of Eckankar prior to meeting your HI boyfriend?
                  >
                  > You wrote: I was in an allegedly committed relationship with this
                  > person who claimed to be a spiritually advanced HI Cleric and he
                  was
                  > cheating on me with paid hookers. I was curious as to whether he
                  was
                  > just a fake Eckist, or whether Eckankar is fake.
                  >
                  >
                  > *** Now why would you question whether Eckankar was fake? Did you
                  > begin to buy into the BS? Did you do any investigating of the
                  > teachings before breaking it off with your ex boyfriend? Or did you
                  > break it off because of the comment he made about paying
                  hookers.....
                  >
                  >
                  > I wrote:
                  > > If you felt so upset about this ex HI boyfriend,
                  > > > and had information that he is / was frequenting hookers, don't
                  > > you feel
                  > > > some sort of obligation to the community of eckies, to at least
                  > > report him
                  > > > to the RESA of the State?
                  >
                  > [Note] this should have said in my original post,
                  > You wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Again, I don't believe in Eckankar and have no reason to go to
                  the
                  > > RESA, whoever that is.
                  >
                  >
                  > *** A question; If you were with this guy for a year, I assume you
                  > attended eck functions? Got to know some of the members... did you
                  > believe in eckankrap then, or just going along with it because you
                  > cared about this guy?
                  >
                  >
                  > I wrote:
                  > > > I would even go as far as reporting this to the
                  > > > Law Enforcement agency, so that they might set up a sting
                  > > operation to
                  > > > capture and take these people off the streets. In turn this
                  just
                  > > might get
                  > > > your ex caught with his pants down....
                  > > >
                  >
                  >
                  > You wrote:
                  > > I'm not sure what you are getting at here.
                  >
                  >
                  > *** It is very self explanitory what I was getting at. The guy was
                  > breaking a law! If you were that concerned about him having done
                  this
                  > to you, (and trying to find out if he is for real or if eck is
                  fake),
                  > report his actions to Law Enforcement and get these people off
                  > the street! And in the process, they might catch him with his pants
                  > down... in other words, in a compromising possition!
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > > What I was sharing, which you apparently missed, is an experience
                  > > with a person who buys into the bullshit Eckankar spiritual
                  > > arrogance. And frankly I think that my story actually contributes
                  > to
                  > > the dialogue about "the truth behind the lies", because it
                  > > exemplifies the disingenuous nature of a "religion" that
                  justifies
                  > > bad behavior under the rubric of spiritual growth.
                  >
                  >
                  > *** So did you come to this conclussion before or after the ex bf?
                  I
                  > didn't miss your point, just wondering how you came to it? How
                  would
                  > you know how an HI is suppose to behave? I'm wondering what the
                  wife
                  > of that famous christian that got ratted out by his ex gay lover,
                  > feels? Does she think he is still spiritual or higher than anyone
                  > else? Did this guy have the same arrogance as your ex bf? It will
                  > be interesting to hear her side of the story! Wonder if she will
                  > attempt to fix her marriage, or research and bash him? "No
                  disrespect"
                  > here intended really, though I am sure Leaf can't wait to get ahold
                  > of me! ;-) All these questions are intended to allow you the chance
                  > to enlighten others of your experience.
                  >
                  >
                  > You wrote:
                  > > I don't need a counselor, thanks. But you might want to
                  > > consult one to figure out why you felt the need to launch into a
                  > > personal attack on an individual who was merely trying to
                  > > understand her experience with an amoral Eckist.
                  >
                  >
                  > *** Did you ask him to clarify his amoral eckist behavior? Did you
                  > point out you didn't feel solisiting hookers was very spiritual?
                  > Really, I would like to know what he may or may not have said to
                  > these questions!?
                  >
                  >
                  > You originally wrote:
                  > > > -------Original Message-------
                  > > >
                  > > > From: marlaprendergast
                  > > > Date: 6/25/2007 10:14:38 PM
                  > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: integrity
                  > > >
                  > > > My ex-BF is a cleric as well. He has a card in his wallet that
                  > says
                  > > > he's a clergy member. The card is right up against a condom he
                  > > keeps
                  > > > there for when he picks up hookers.
                  >
                  >
                  > *** To be honest I am surprised he didn't claim he was paying these
                  > hookers, so he could get them in a room and give them an
                  introductory
                  > talk on eckankrap! ;-)
                  >
                  >
                  > By The Way Zoey, for your info I am one of the moderators of this
                  > group! So don't blame Prometheus for everything that goes on here!
                  > How's that workin for you Zoey?
                  >
                  > Oh, and before I forget; Welcome to the group Rowan_oak22...
                  > interesting that you just created your account the very day Zoey
                  left
                  > us! See how spirit works? One leaves and we are replaced with
                  > another member. :-) Wonder if this is a waking dream?
                  >
                  > Liz,
                  >
                  > Who was a 6th, Initiator and ESA, and a member for over 30 years,
                  > both parents work/ed at ESC and know Joan and Harold personally.
                  BTW,
                  > I was actually invited back to the teaching! ;-) So much for your
                  > threats Zoey!
                  >
                  >
                  > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                  >
                  > --- In
                  EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                  > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hi Marla,
                  > > Thanks for posting your comments to help clear the air.
                  > > It was actually Zoey that was sending the nasty private
                  > > e-mails. I, also, didn't appove a nasty post by Rowan (Zoey).
                  > > See, how there was confusion as to who said what and to
                  > > whom! I'm sorry about the confusion and anything else
                  > > that was misconstrued.
                  > >
                  > > It is true that Eckists do view H.I.s as being Godlike, or
                  > > even higher/greater than the 4th Plane "GOD" of all the
                  > > other religions (excluding Eckankar's of course). And, this
                  > > is why such conduct of cheating with a hooker and having
                  > > a condom next to his Eck I.D. is shocking... I guess. Except,
                  > > most Eckists know that this behaviour Does exist because
                  > > they see it! The Eck "sisterhood" shares all of this information
                  > > amongst themselves. However, this behaviour is rationalized
                  > > like all other ones from a Religious/Dogmatic point of view.
                  > > H.I.s are exempt from responsibility... they not only go with
                  > > God... they are greater than God! But, just look around at the
                  > > religious fundamentalists of other religions... they all see
                  > > themselves as right and above others. Therefore, this arrogance
                  > > and delusion of spiritual piety is growing in the world amongst
                  > > its closed-mined holier-than-thou religious followers (It seems
                  > > that there are more narcissists in the world too). At least Eck
                  > > vahanas aren't murdering people that won't convert... now! LOL!
                  > > However, what would happen if they had the power and numbers
                  > > on their side?
                  > >
                  > > You see, it's all about conforming! This is what the religious
                  > > fundamentalists want... (and the narcissists) they want to
                  control
                  > > people by having them believe in their way of thinking. I really
                  > > don't see why Eckists aren't realizing this either! Look at
                  those
                  > > spoken and unspoken "rules" and all of those Guidelines. These
                  > > are meant to keep Eckists under control and to have them all
                  think
                  > > alike by conforming to the religious dogma. The Irony is that
                  most
                  > > Eckists see themselves as Non-Comformists and free thinkers!
                  > >
                  > > Anyway, as far as why Liz responded to you as she did... I'll
                  let
                  > her
                  > > explain that because I'm not sure what she thinks she saw or
                  read
                  > > that raised some doubt about the intent or value behind your
                  post.
                  > > Once again, Sorry, on my part!
                  > >
                  > > Prometheus
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > "marlaprendergast" wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Again, I feel I must correct the record regarding my presence
                  on
                  > > > this site, which apparently is considered controversial and
                  > annoying:
                  > > >
                  > > > > Apparently, Marla
                  > > > > thinks the anti-Eckankar sites are a good place to air the
                  > > > > dirty laundry, to get even, to inform others of this bad
                  > > > behaviour,
                  > > > > or just vent her anger.
                  > > >
                  > > > No, that is false. I have stated repeatedly the reason I came
                  on
                  > > > this site was to discern whether the less than stellar
                  integrity
                  > of
                  > > > my ex-BF was common to those who claim to reach a high level
                  of
                  > > > spirituality in Eckankar. I'm not going to rehash my reasoning
                  > > > again. I'm rather tired of it. Go back and look if you are
                  > curious.
                  > > >
                  > > > > Marla did take a positive suggestion and changed her
                  pseudonym
                  > > > > from marlasobbing to marlapretendgasp, although, I'm puzzled
                  > > > > at the second choice.
                  > > >
                  > > > Again, this is false. This really amazes me. Can you not see
                  that
                  > my
                  > > > name is "Marla Prendergast"? The phrase "Marla Pretendgasp" is
                  > Liz's
                  > > > attempt to mock my name, and now you are claiming that I chose
                  > it? I
                  > > > must add that I just found out that Liz is actually a
                  moderator
                  > of
                  > > > this group. That just blows my mind. I expect random attacks
                  such
                  > as
                  > > > hers from wayward members on forums who come in to rile people
                  up
                  > > > and spew nonsense. I had no idea she actually held a position
                  of
                  > > > responsibility on this site. Wow.
                  > > >
                  > > > Lastly, in the last few days there have been accusations of
                  > abusive
                  > > > private emails going back and forth between members. Both
                  > prometheus
                  > > > and liz have somewhat justified their critical posts by saying
                  > they
                  > > > are the victims of such emails. I don't know if they were
                  > referring
                  > > > to me as a sender of one of these emails, but I want to make
                  it
                  > > > perfectly clear that I have never sent a private email
                  attacking
                  > > > anyone here or on any site. I challenge anyone who claims I
                  did
                  > to
                  > > > present it here.
                  > > >
                  > > > I would also again like to thank leafeater for his sage posts.
                  He
                  > > > has hit the nail right on the head.
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • tomleafeater
                  I will try once more to reply on this forum, and I post here with the understanding and expectation that my post will not be edited, abbreviated, taken out of
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jul 2, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I will try once more to reply on this forum, and I post here with the
                    understanding and expectation that my post will not be edited,
                    abbreviated, taken out of context, or changed in any way. If this
                    can't be honored, then please do not reply to me on this forum. Don't
                    write about my posts with your own comments unless you allow readers
                    to see the post entirely verbatim.

                    Readers here are directed to read my posts/replies at
                    either "EckankarTruth" or "X-Eckankar, The Chains of Eck" forums to
                    get an accurate read of my posts. I feel the cross-posting is
                    necessary to insure integrity.

                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eckankartruth/

                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/X-Eckankar_The-Chains-of-Eck/

                    Also, I privately told Prometheus in response to his private emails
                    to me that all promises of confidentiality I made regarding his
                    private emails would be rescinded if there were ANY further
                    distortions or misrepresentations of ANYthing I have written.

                    His and Liz's reference to those private emails and their
                    characterization of them does, once again, come close to breaching
                    confidences. If this continues, I will post the private emails
                    verbatim, in order to let readers judge for themselves the content of
                    those emails.

                    Also, I am unlikely to respond to any future private emails from Liz
                    or Prometheus, since there is a distinct possibility that my emails
                    will be further characterized in a bad light.

                    First, I'd like to respond to this statement by Liz:

                    Liz wrote (see her complete post below for context):

                    > And for the record, I didn't edit a post or the wording which was
                    > sent (but not approved) though I did use portions to answer Leaf's
                    > questions. The rest was left out due to the nature of the nasty
                    ness
                    > He can claim what ever he wishes, here or on ET. I have nothing
                    > further to debate with him. BTW, I haven't posted on ET in a very
                    > long time!

                    Leaf Replies:

                    A post of mine, which was not allowed on the ESA forum, was responded
                    to in a post by Liz, who has private access to pending posts by
                    persons who have been placed on "moderated" status. The post was
                    chopped up into fragments, sometimes without complete sentences, and
                    replied to in her own post. The context of my post was changed, and
                    thus what I communicated was distorted in the process. I can't make
                    heads or tails out of some of my own words in her reply. I find this
                    treatment to be highly unethical.

                    In my view, there was nothing in the post that I wrote that was NOT
                    entirely warranted. It was not "nasty."

                    It is a violation of trust for Liz to make ongoing comments about the
                    post, such as claim there was "nastiness" in the post, without
                    posting it exactly as I'd written it, whole and unedited. As I see
                    it, the "nastiness" assertion is being used to justify unnecessary
                    censureship of comments not to their liking.

                    It is also very disturbing to me that both Liz and Prometheus have
                    the practice of continually alleging "lewd" or "nasty posts," while
                    leaving no manner for the readers to see those posts and determine
                    for themselves whether they deserve such epithets. The samples
                    revealed to me by Prometheus in private emails do not warrant the
                    hyperbole and exagerations made by Prometheus and Liz.

                    Thus, as to Prometheus' and Liz's allegations about Zoey using
                    pseudonyms and sending in "nasty" private emails, I can only wonder
                    if there is any substance behind these allegations, since now even my
                    own censured post is being described in exactly such a manner, and
                    there have been hints that even I am using other pseudonyms
                    besides "leafeater," which is absolutely not true.

                    Another comment I'd like to address is this remark by Prometheus:

                    Prometheus wrote (see below for complete context):

                    "Leaf then came to Marla's defense while being unaware of Zoey's
                    neg. involvement. Zoey (he/she) got very nasty on the site and
                    privately. There was also confusion with what was said to whom. I was
                    unable to discuss this with Leaf privately because he had already
                    formed an opinion. I put Leaf on temporary moderated status because I
                    didn't want to keep the discussion escalating. Unfortunately Liz (Co-
                    moderator)read a pending message and replied to it in part. This
                    created even more disharmony which became impossible to resolve."

                    Leaf replies:

                    My posts to Marla, as well as other related posts I've made
                    concerning Marla, were not in any way prompted by anything concerning
                    Zoey. Liz and Prometheus are conflating the issues they have with
                    Marla on one hand, and Zoey on the other, which are two separate
                    issues. My comments regarding Marla are regarding only Marla, and
                    don't relate to Zoey. So the implication that I lacked information
                    concerning Zoey which somehow led me to make incorrect statements
                    concerning Marla makes no sense and defies rational thinking.

                    Leafeater












                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth"
                    <ewickings@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Marla,
                    >
                    > Please read message #2687 which I posted below, It was a reply to
                    > you, along with questions I had for you. Maybe you missed this
                    > particular message? At any rate, the questions were posted to get
                    an
                    > idea of your history from this ex HI bf.
                    >
                    > One thing I would really like to know is how the Eck members would
                    > react if you had gone to an eckankar yahoo group such as Hu-Chat
                    and
                    > asked them the same questions? And if you do ask them (current
                    > eckists) please share your experience. Anyway, it was my attempt
                    at
                    > having a conversation to clear the air, give you the chance to
                    share
                    > your story in more depth. My chance to ask questions that might
                    allow
                    > you the chance again to share your experience, and for me to
                    listen.
                    >
                    > You will see I also responded to Zoey in this same post. As
                    > Prometheus shared, he/she was sending private nasty messages to the
                    > group, and privately. Neither Prometheus, nor I initiated any of
                    > these private conversations with him/her, nor did we actually
                    provoke
                    > some of the posts that was sent to ESA and moderated, at least to
                    my
                    > knowlege. I went back and looked over my initial comments to
                    his/her
                    > 9Zoey's) questions, and apparently they were not read by him/her?
                    > This individual got nasty first, on the skirts of posts made by you.
                    >
                    > Doing further research and comparing posts, IDs, and when an
                    > individual signed up and joined / left the group, what type of
                    > program was being used to mask the origination of posts privately
                    and
                    > to the group, (which were moderated) yes three differing IDs and
                    > posters (which two of them being one person) did get addressed in
                    one
                    > post.
                    >
                    > I do appologise for including my comments to Zoey, or even Leaf in
                    > the same post as the one to you. Not a good excuse I guess, but I
                    am
                    > rather busy and was attempting to make my life easier by only
                    > presenting one message. I won't do that again.
                    >
                    > I do not feel the need to explain myself to Leaf, which is exactly
                    > what I intended for him to understand. It was suggested to him by
                    > Prometheus to contact us (me) privately, yet Leaf did not, and it
                    > appears he also did not take what Prometheus shared with him
                    > (privately) as enough proof to warrent how Zoey was handled.
                    >
                    > I also was an admirer of Leaf's excellent sage posts, but when an
                    > individual DEMANDS anything of me, when it does not concern them,
                    > they will come up against a brick wall.
                    >
                    > And for the record, I didn't edit a post or the wording which was
                    > sent (but not approved) though I did use portions to answer Leaf's
                    > questions. The rest was left out due to the nature of the nasty
                    ness
                    > He can claim what ever he wishes, here or on ET. I have nothing
                    > further to debate with him. BTW, I haven't posted on ET in a very
                    > long time!
                    >
                    > Anyway, below is a copy of the questions I had concerning your post
                    > about integrity. A portion of the post was directed to others
                    > besides yourself, of which I explained the reasoning in this post,
                    as
                    > well in posts in answer to Leaf, Zoey and Rowan_Oak22. If Leaf
                    > wishes to continue dialog with any of these individuals privately,
                    > that is his business. But I do not feel the need to prove, provide
                    or
                    > justify myself to him!
                    >
                    > Again, please understand I am curious and the questions were with
                    > good intent.
                    >
                    > Liz
                    >
                    > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                    > Message #2687
                    >
                    > Sharon ;-) Re: integrity
                    >
                    > Hi Non ekster,
                    > It seems weird to me as well! It started with Marlasobbing
                    > coming over here from ET. She, apparently, wanted to share
                    > (with more people) her frustrations, anger, and some negative
                    > information about her ex-6th Initiate boyfriend and that he
                    > wasn't very "spiritual" since he carried a condom next to his
                    > Eck I.D. card, and that he cheated on her with hookers! Of
                    > course, I don't know how she really knew about the condom,
                    > the cheating, or the hookers, but it was a juicy story about a
                    > male H.I. misbehaving (which is really nothing new for either
                    > gender for Eckists in general). She, also, mentioned how he
                    > had taken her for an E.S.A. session and that she liked this
                    > female H.I. and, basically, said that the E.S.A. was very
                    > convincing with her silver tongue and friendly demeanor.
                    >
                    > I don't see that the term Victim Consciousness is always a
                    > New Age term, especially, when it's applied to the wrong
                    > "relationship" choices that we make. Sometimes the rejected
                    > person will place all blame on the other person while not taking
                    > responsibility for making a bad choice, seeing the signs, and
                    > admitting they screwed up. Closing one's eyes to the truth and
                    > then blaming the other person or someone else, to me, is a form
                    > of Victim Consciousness. It's kind of like how some women will
                    > choose "bad boys" and then not take responsibility for it or fail
                    > to (and refuse to) look into the "why" and then taking the steps
                    > to correct their destructive decision making processes. Life
                    becomes
                    > one long drama or soap opera for some people. Maybe they enjoy
                    > the attention too! I'm not saying this was what Marla was doing,
                    > but it seemed like it was possible and after awhile. It wasn't like
                    > it was a super long relationship (one year) IMO. Plus, she still
                    saw
                    > it in a "romantic" way! That's why I agreed with Liz and said that
                    > it was seeming like this was a one-sided version (of the truth)
                    > from a woman scorned. I know that I should not have "talked about"
                    > Marla nor made this observation or assumption, but then again it
                    > reminded me of situations in the past where I saw others caught in
                    > similar circumstances and one heard only one side of the
                    relationship
                    > story.
                    >
                    > Leaf then came to Marla's defense while being unaware of Zoey's
                    > neg. involvment. Zoey (he/she) got very nasty on the site and
                    privately.
                    > There was also confusion with what was said to whom. I was unable
                    > to discuss this with Leaf privately because he had already formed
                    an
                    > opinion. I put Leaf on temporary moderated status because I didn't
                    > want to keep the discussion escalating. Unfortunately Liz (Co-
                    moderator)
                    > read a pending message and replied to it in part. This created even
                    > more disharmony which became impossible to resolve.
                    >
                    > Anyway, it was an interesting learning experience. I admit that
                    > there were mistakes made (people aren't perfect) and that it could
                    > have been done better and kinder and there could have been more
                    > tolerance and consideration given to one another. So for that, on
                    my
                    > part, I apologize to Marla and to everyone.
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    > p.s. I do appreciate Liz being a Co-moderator and taking care of
                    > the sites while I am away. Thanks Liz!
                    >
                  • prometheus_973
                    Hello All, FYI- Leaf s/Kent s real name is shown because that s how he posted it! Kent was banned under his other screen name and, therefore, he either
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jul 3, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hello All,
                      FYI- Leaf's/Kent's real name is shown because that's
                      how he posted it! Kent was banned under his other
                      screen name and, therefore, he either knowingly
                      or unknowingly posted under his own address, OR the Yahoo
                      server used his default settings (address) in order to be able
                      to send the message to this site.

                      BTW- There was a threat, by Kent, to expose some private
                      e-mails sent to him. My purpose was to try and resolve our
                      differences and to respond to his questions without an audience.
                      Obviously this attempt to defend myself, answer questions, and
                      to end the dispute via these private e-mails was unsuccessful.
                      And, let me say, there is nothing in these private e-mails that
                      would prove harmful to me. One's imagination can run wild with
                      speculation, but there is nothing contained in them that I or
                      any objective person would view as a problem. Therefore, the
                      threat that the exposure of these private e-mails would prove
                      harmful to me or my reputation is baseless.

                      FYI To All Members/Posters: Private e-mails will not be shared
                      or posted at any time... to do so would be unethical and show a
                      lack of character.

                      Prometheus






                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater"
                      <kentaddleman@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I will try once more to reply on this forum, and I post here with the
                      > understanding and expectation that my post will not be edited,
                      > abbreviated, taken out of context, or changed in any way. If this
                      > can't be honored, then please do not reply to me on this forum. Don't
                      > write about my posts with your own comments unless you allow readers
                      > to see the post entirely verbatim.
                      >
                      > Readers here are directed to read my posts/replies at
                      > either "EckankarTruth" or "X-Eckankar, The Chains of Eck" forums to
                      > get an accurate read of my posts. I feel the cross-posting is
                      > necessary to insure integrity.
                      >
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eckankartruth/
                      >
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/X-Eckankar_The-Chains-of-Eck/
                      >
                      > Also, I privately told Prometheus in response to his private emails
                      > to me that all promises of confidentiality I made regarding his
                      > private emails would be rescinded if there were ANY further
                      > distortions or misrepresentations of ANYthing I have written.
                      >
                      > His and Liz's reference to those private emails and their
                      > characterization of them does, once again, come close to breaching
                      > confidences. If this continues, I will post the private emails
                      > verbatim, in order to let readers judge for themselves the content of
                      > those emails.
                      >
                      > Also, I am unlikely to respond to any future private emails from Liz
                      > or Prometheus, since there is a distinct possibility that my emails
                      > will be further characterized in a bad light.
                      >
                      > First, I'd like to respond to this statement by Liz:
                      >
                      > Liz wrote (see her complete post below for context):
                      >
                      > > And for the record, I didn't edit a post or the wording which was
                      > > sent (but not approved) though I did use portions to answer Leaf's
                      > > questions. The rest was left out due to the nature of the nasty
                      > ness
                      > > He can claim what ever he wishes, here or on ET. I have nothing
                      > > further to debate with him. BTW, I haven't posted on ET in a very
                      > > long time!
                      >
                      > Leaf Replies:
                      >
                      > A post of mine, which was not allowed on the ESA forum, was responded
                      > to in a post by Liz, who has private access to pending posts by
                      > persons who have been placed on "moderated" status. The post was
                      > chopped up into fragments, sometimes without complete sentences, and
                      > replied to in her own post. The context of my post was changed, and
                      > thus what I communicated was distorted in the process. I can't make
                      > heads or tails out of some of my own words in her reply. I find this
                      > treatment to be highly unethical.
                      >
                      > In my view, there was nothing in the post that I wrote that was NOT
                      > entirely warranted. It was not "nasty."
                      >
                      > It is a violation of trust for Liz to make ongoing comments about the
                      > post, such as claim there was "nastiness" in the post, without
                      > posting it exactly as I'd written it, whole and unedited. As I see
                      > it, the "nastiness" assertion is being used to justify unnecessary
                      > censureship of comments not to their liking.
                      >
                      > It is also very disturbing to me that both Liz and Prometheus have
                      > the practice of continually alleging "lewd" or "nasty posts," while
                      > leaving no manner for the readers to see those posts and determine
                      > for themselves whether they deserve such epithets. The samples
                      > revealed to me by Prometheus in private emails do not warrant the
                      > hyperbole and exagerations made by Prometheus and Liz.
                      >
                      > Thus, as to Prometheus' and Liz's allegations about Zoey using
                      > pseudonyms and sending in "nasty" private emails, I can only wonder
                      > if there is any substance behind these allegations, since now even my
                      > own censured post is being described in exactly such a manner, and
                      > there have been hints that even I am using other pseudonyms
                      > besides "leafeater," which is absolutely not true.
                      >
                      > Another comment I'd like to address is this remark by Prometheus:
                      >
                      > Prometheus wrote (see below for complete context):
                      >
                      > "Leaf then came to Marla's defense while being unaware of Zoey's
                      > neg. involvement. Zoey (he/she) got very nasty on the site and
                      > privately. There was also confusion with what was said to whom. I was
                      > unable to discuss this with Leaf privately because he had already
                      > formed an opinion. I put Leaf on temporary moderated status because I
                      > didn't want to keep the discussion escalating. Unfortunately Liz (Co-
                      > moderator)read a pending message and replied to it in part. This
                      > created even more disharmony which became impossible to resolve."
                      >
                      > Leaf replies:
                      >
                      > My posts to Marla, as well as other related posts I've made
                      > concerning Marla, were not in any way prompted by anything concerning
                      > Zoey. Liz and Prometheus are conflating the issues they have with
                      > Marla on one hand, and Zoey on the other, which are two separate
                      > issues. My comments regarding Marla are regarding only Marla, and
                      > don't relate to Zoey. So the implication that I lacked information
                      > concerning Zoey which somehow led me to make incorrect statements
                      > concerning Marla makes no sense and defies rational thinking.
                      >
                      > Leafeater
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth"
                      > <ewickings@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hi Marla,
                      > >
                      > > Please read message #2687 which I posted below, It was a reply to
                      > > you, along with questions I had for you. Maybe you missed this
                      > > particular message? At any rate, the questions were posted to get
                      > an
                      > > idea of your history from this ex HI bf.
                      > >
                      > > One thing I would really like to know is how the Eck members would
                      > > react if you had gone to an eckankar yahoo group such as Hu-Chat
                      > and
                      > > asked them the same questions? And if you do ask them (current
                      > > eckists) please share your experience. Anyway, it was my attempt
                      > at
                      > > having a conversation to clear the air, give you the chance to
                      > share
                      > > your story in more depth. My chance to ask questions that might
                      > allow
                      > > you the chance again to share your experience, and for me to
                      > listen.
                      > >
                      > > You will see I also responded to Zoey in this same post. As
                      > > Prometheus shared, he/she was sending private nasty messages to the
                      > > group, and privately. Neither Prometheus, nor I initiated any of
                      > > these private conversations with him/her, nor did we actually
                      > provoke
                      > > some of the posts that was sent to ESA and moderated, at least to
                      > my
                      > > knowlege. I went back and looked over my initial comments to
                      > his/her
                      > > 9Zoey's) questions, and apparently they were not read by him/her?
                      > > This individual got nasty first, on the skirts of posts made by you.
                      > >
                      > > Doing further research and comparing posts, IDs, and when an
                      > > individual signed up and joined / left the group, what type of
                      > > program was being used to mask the origination of posts privately
                      > and
                      > > to the group, (which were moderated) yes three differing IDs and
                      > > posters (which two of them being one person) did get addressed in
                      > one
                      > > post.
                      > >
                      > > I do appologise for including my comments to Zoey, or even Leaf in
                      > > the same post as the one to you. Not a good excuse I guess, but I
                      > am
                      > > rather busy and was attempting to make my life easier by only
                      > > presenting one message. I won't do that again.
                      > >
                      > > I do not feel the need to explain myself to Leaf, which is exactly
                      > > what I intended for him to understand. It was suggested to him by
                      > > Prometheus to contact us (me) privately, yet Leaf did not, and it
                      > > appears he also did not take what Prometheus shared with him
                      > > (privately) as enough proof to warrent how Zoey was handled.
                      > >
                      > > I also was an admirer of Leaf's excellent sage posts, but when an
                      > > individual DEMANDS anything of me, when it does not concern them,
                      > > they will come up against a brick wall.
                      > >
                      > > And for the record, I didn't edit a post or the wording which was
                      > > sent (but not approved) though I did use portions to answer Leaf's
                      > > questions. The rest was left out due to the nature of the nasty
                      > ness
                      > > He can claim what ever he wishes, here or on ET. I have nothing
                      > > further to debate with him. BTW, I haven't posted on ET in a very
                      > > long time!
                      > >
                      > > Anyway, below is a copy of the questions I had concerning your post
                      > > about integrity. A portion of the post was directed to others
                      > > besides yourself, of which I explained the reasoning in this post,
                      > as
                      > > well in posts in answer to Leaf, Zoey and Rowan_Oak22. If Leaf
                      > > wishes to continue dialog with any of these individuals privately,
                      > > that is his business. But I do not feel the need to prove, provide
                      > or
                      > > justify myself to him!
                      > >
                      > > Again, please understand I am curious and the questions were with
                      > > good intent.
                      > >
                      > > Liz
                      > >
                      > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                      > > Message #2687
                      > >
                      > > Sharon ;-) Re: integrity
                      > >
                      > > Hi Non ekster,
                      > > It seems weird to me as well! It started with Marlasobbing
                      > > coming over here from ET. She, apparently, wanted to share
                      > > (with more people) her frustrations, anger, and some negative
                      > > information about her ex-6th Initiate boyfriend and that he
                      > > wasn't very "spiritual" since he carried a condom next to his
                      > > Eck I.D. card, and that he cheated on her with hookers! Of
                      > > course, I don't know how she really knew about the condom,
                      > > the cheating, or the hookers, but it was a juicy story about a
                      > > male H.I. misbehaving (which is really nothing new for either
                      > > gender for Eckists in general). She, also, mentioned how he
                      > > had taken her for an E.S.A. session and that she liked this
                      > > female H.I. and, basically, said that the E.S.A. was very
                      > > convincing with her silver tongue and friendly demeanor.
                      > >
                      > > I don't see that the term Victim Consciousness is always a
                      > > New Age term, especially, when it's applied to the wrong
                      > > "relationship" choices that we make. Sometimes the rejected
                      > > person will place all blame on the other person while not taking
                      > > responsibility for making a bad choice, seeing the signs, and
                      > > admitting they screwed up. Closing one's eyes to the truth and
                      > > then blaming the other person or someone else, to me, is a form
                      > > of Victim Consciousness. It's kind of like how some women will
                      > > choose "bad boys" and then not take responsibility for it or fail
                      > > to (and refuse to) look into the "why" and then taking the steps
                      > > to correct their destructive decision making processes. Life
                      > becomes
                      > > one long drama or soap opera for some people. Maybe they enjoy
                      > > the attention too! I'm not saying this was what Marla was doing,
                      > > but it seemed like it was possible and after awhile. It wasn't like
                      > > it was a super long relationship (one year) IMO. Plus, she still
                      > saw
                      > > it in a "romantic" way! That's why I agreed with Liz and said that
                      > > it was seeming like this was a one-sided version (of the truth)
                      > > from a woman scorned. I know that I should not have "talked about"
                      > > Marla nor made this observation or assumption, but then again it
                      > > reminded me of situations in the past where I saw others caught in
                      > > similar circumstances and one heard only one side of the
                      > relationship
                      > > story.
                      > >
                      > > Leaf then came to Marla's defense while being unaware of Zoey's
                      > > neg. involvment. Zoey (he/she) got very nasty on the site and
                      > privately.
                      > > There was also confusion with what was said to whom. I was unable
                      > > to discuss this with Leaf privately because he had already formed
                      > an
                      > > opinion. I put Leaf on temporary moderated status because I didn't
                      > > want to keep the discussion escalating. Unfortunately Liz (Co-
                      > moderator)
                      > > read a pending message and replied to it in part. This created even
                      > > more disharmony which became impossible to resolve.
                      > >
                      > > Anyway, it was an interesting learning experience. I admit that
                      > > there were mistakes made (people aren't perfect) and that it could
                      > > have been done better and kinder and there could have been more
                      > > tolerance and consideration given to one another. So for that, on
                      > my
                      > > part, I apologize to Marla and to everyone.
                      > >
                      > > Prometheus
                      > > p.s. I do appreciate Liz being a Co-moderator and taking care of
                      > > the sites while I am away. Thanks Liz!
                      > >
                      >
                    • ewickings
                      Prometheus and all members, This is a very good point to make concerning private emails! FYI, if a person is really all that concerned about whether a
                      Message 10 of 10 , Jul 3, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Prometheus and all members,
                         
                        This is a very good point to make concerning private emails!    FYI, if a person is really all that concerned about whether a moderator edited or switched a poster's email or address once it gets approved, all one has to do is look at the post in question, to the right and below the date it will say:  "Show message option".  If you click the tiny arrow it will expand the area to show: "View Source", "Use Fixed Width Font", or "Unwrap Lines".    Click the one that says "Show message".  It will then open up the post at the left of the page, and before the actual message it will show who it is from, return path, Received.... Etc which for most people is hard to read let alone understand if you have no clue what you are looking for.  Down toward the bottom of all that strange stuff you will see From, Subject,  X-Yahoo-Group-Post: public or it might say member, if it says public, it means the person sending a post is not a member of the group.  The last line will show:  X-eGroups-Approved-By: either Prometheus or myself.  It will also show if anything was edited, and by which moderator.  This pertains to the message posted on ESA Re: Group FYI
                         
                        If this explaination is too difficult for anyone to understand, then I guess the point is not worth explaining further... This is not too difficult to prove to yourselves.  It is impossible to remove or change a person's message without it showing this within the "Show Message Option" as I referrenced.  Of course one way to accomplish doing any editing and posting, would be to forward one of these moderated posts from the original message, and post it yourself as a moderator.  Which in this case in question, was not how it happened!
                         
                        Hope everyone has an enjoyable July 4th Holiday week/end.   Liz
                         
                        Freedom is an empowering and sobering concept. It gives us the opportunity to succeed, and also to fail. Freedom allows us to make our own way in life. And it requires that we accept the responsibility for that.

                        Freedom and responsibility simply cannot exist apart from each other. You can be truly free only by being totally responsible for your life and your actions.

                        Though millions have died for it, and most would choose freedom over any alternative, freedom can at times be very frightening. It often imposes difficult decisions, and requires valiant effort to maintain. Though freedom is indisputably the best course, it is seldom the easiest. Yet freedom is worth the effort, for it is a human catalyst that has no equal.

                        To be free means being your own person, with your own purpose, and passion, and integrity. And just as it has to thousands of communities and millions of people, true freedom can bring you greatness.

                        Ralph Marston

                         
                              
                         
                        -------Original Message-------
                         
                        Date: 7/3/2007 11:56:48 AM
                        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Group FYI [Response to Leaf]
                         
                        Hello All,
                        FYI- Leaf's/Kent's real name is shown because that's
                        how he posted it! Kent was banned under his other
                        screen name and, therefore, he either knowingly
                        or unknowingly posted under his own address, OR the Yahoo
                        server used his default settings (address) in order to be able
                        to send the message to this site.
                         
                        BTW- There was a threat, by Kent, to expose some private
                        e-mails sent to him. My purpose was to try and resolve our
                        differences and to respond to his questions without an audience.
                        Obviously this attempt to defend myself, answer questions, and
                        to end the dispute via these private e-mails was unsuccessful.
                        And, let me say, there is nothing in these private e-mails that
                        would prove harmful to me. One's imagination can run wild with
                        speculation, but there is nothing contained in them that I or
                        any objective person would view as a problem. Therefore, the
                        threat that the exposure of these private e-mails would prove
                        harmful to me or my reputation is baseless.
                         
                        FYI To All Members/Posters: Private e-mails will not be shared
                        or posted at any time... to do so would be unethical and show a
                        lack of character.
                         
                        Prometheus
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                        <kentaddleman@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I will try once more to reply on this forum, and I post here with the
                        > understanding and expectation that my post will not be edited,
                        > abbreviated, taken out of context, or changed in any way. If this
                        > can't be honored, then please do not reply to me on this forum. Don't
                        > write about my posts with your own comments unless you allow readers
                        > to see the post entirely verbatim.
                        >
                        > Readers here are directed to read my posts/replies at
                        > either "EckankarTruth" or "X-Eckankar, The Chains of Eck" forums to
                        > get an accurate read of my posts. I feel the cross-posting is
                        > necessary to insure integrity.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Also, I privately told Prometheus in response to his private emails
                        > to me that all promises of confidentiality I made regarding his
                        > private emails would be rescinded if there were ANY further
                        > distortions or misrepresentations of ANYthing I have written.
                        >
                        > His and Liz's reference to those private emails and their
                        > characterization of them does, once again, come close to breaching
                        > confidences. If this continues, I will post the private emails
                        > verbatim, in order to let readers judge for themselves the content of
                        > those emails.
                        >
                        > Also, I am unlikely to respond to any future private emails from Liz
                        > or Prometheus, since there is a distinct possibility that my emails
                        > will be further characterized in a bad light.
                        >
                        > First, I'd like to respond to this statement by Liz:
                        >
                        > Liz wrote (see her complete post below for context):
                        >
                        > > And for the record, I didn't edit a post or the wording which was
                        > > sent (but not approved) though I did use portions to answer Leaf's
                        > > questions. The rest was left out due to the nature of the nasty
                        > ness
                        > > He can claim what ever he wishes, here or on ET. I have nothing
                        > > further to debate with him. BTW, I haven't posted on ET in a very
                        > > long time!
                        >
                        > Leaf Replies:
                        >
                        > A post of mine, which was not allowed on the ESA forum, was responded
                        > to in a post by Liz, who has private access to pending posts by
                        > persons who have been placed on "moderated" status. The post was
                        > chopped up into fragments, sometimes without complete sentences, and
                        > replied to in her own post. The context of my post was changed, and
                        > thus what I communicated was distorted in the process.  I can't make
                        > heads or tails out of some of my own words in her reply. I find this
                        > treatment to be highly unethical.
                        >
                        > In my view, there was nothing in the post that I wrote that was NOT
                        > entirely warranted. It was not "nasty."
                        >
                        > It is a violation of trust for Liz to make ongoing comments about the
                        > post, such as claim there was "nastiness" in the post, without
                        > posting it exactly as I'd written it, whole and unedited. As I see
                        > it, the "nastiness" assertion is being used to justify unnecessary
                        > censureship of comments not to their liking.
                        >
                        > It is also very disturbing to me that both Liz and Prometheus have
                        > the practice of continually alleging "lewd" or "nasty posts," while
                        > leaving no manner for the readers to see those posts and determine
                        > for themselves whether they deserve such epithets. The samples
                        > revealed to me by Prometheus in private emails do not warrant the
                        > hyperbole and exagerations made by Prometheus and Liz.
                        >
                        > Thus, as to Prometheus' and Liz's allegations about Zoey using
                        > pseudonyms and sending in "nasty" private emails, I can only wonder
                        > if there is any substance behind these allegations, since now even my
                        > own censured post is being described in exactly such a manner, and
                        > there have been hints that even I am using other pseudonyms
                        > besides "leafeater," which is absolutely not true.
                        >
                        > Another comment I'd like to address is this remark by Prometheus:
                        >
                        > Prometheus wrote (see below for complete context):
                        >
                        > "Leaf then came to Marla's defense while being unaware of Zoey's
                        > neg. involvement. Zoey (he/she) got very nasty on the site and
                        > privately. There was also confusion with what was said to whom. I was
                        > unable to discuss this with Leaf privately because he had already
                        > formed an opinion. I put Leaf on temporary moderated status because I
                        > didn't want to keep the discussion escalating. Unfortunately Liz (Co-
                        > moderator)read a pending message and replied to it in part. This
                        > created even more disharmony which became impossible to resolve."
                        >
                        > Leaf replies:
                        >
                        > My posts to Marla, as well as other related posts I've made
                        > concerning Marla, were not in any way prompted by anything concerning
                        > Zoey. Liz and Prometheus are conflating the issues they have with
                        > Marla on one hand, and Zoey on the other, which are two separate
                        > issues. My comments regarding Marla are regarding only Marla, and
                        > don't relate to Zoey. So the implication that I lacked information
                        > concerning Zoey which somehow led me to make incorrect statements
                        > concerning Marla makes no sense and defies rational thinking.
                        >
                        > Leafeater
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > <ewickings@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Hi Marla,
                        > >
                        > > Please read message #2687 which I posted below, It was a reply to
                        > > you, along with questions I had for you.  Maybe you missed this
                        > > particular message? At any rate, the questions were posted to get
                        > an
                        > > idea of your history from this ex HI bf.
                        > >
                        > > One thing I would really like to know is how the Eck members would
                        > > react if you had gone to an eckankar yahoo group such as Hu-Chat
                        > and
                        > > asked them the same questions? And if you do ask them (current
                        > > eckists) please share your experience.  Anyway, it was my attempt
                        > at
                        > > having a conversation to clear the air, give you the chance to
                        > share
                        > > your story in more depth. My chance to ask questions that might
                        > allow
                        > > you the chance again to share your experience, and for me to
                        > listen.
                        > >
                        > > You will see I also responded to Zoey in this same post.  As
                        > > Prometheus shared, he/she was sending private nasty messages to the
                        > > group, and privately.  Neither Prometheus, nor I initiated any of
                        > > these private conversations with him/her, nor did we actually
                        > provoke
                        > > some of the posts that was sent to ESA and moderated, at least to
                        > my
                        > > knowlege. I went back and looked over my initial comments to
                        > his/her
                        > > 9Zoey's) questions, and apparently they were not read by him/her?
                        > > This individual got nasty first, on the skirts of posts made by you.
                        > >
                        > > Doing further research and comparing posts, IDs, and when an
                        > > individual signed up and joined / left the group, what type of
                        > > program was being used to mask the origination of posts privately
                        > and
                        > > to the group, (which were moderated) yes three differing IDs and
                        > > posters (which two of them being one person) did get addressed in
                        > one
                        > > post.
                        > >
                        > > I do appologise for including my comments to Zoey, or even Leaf in
                        > > the same post as the one to you. Not a good excuse I guess, but I
                        > am
                        > > rather busy and was attempting to make my life easier by only
                        > > presenting one message.  I won't do that again.
                        > >
                        > > I do not feel the need to explain myself to Leaf, which is exactly
                        > > what I intended for him to understand.  It was suggested to him by
                        > > Prometheus to contact us (me) privately, yet Leaf did not, and it
                        > > appears he also did not take what Prometheus shared with him
                        > > (privately) as enough proof to warrent how Zoey was handled.
                        > >
                        > > I also was an admirer of Leaf's excellent sage posts, but when an
                        > > individual DEMANDS anything of me, when it does not concern them,
                        > > they will come up against a brick wall.
                        > >
                        > > And for the record, I didn't edit a post or the wording which was
                        > > sent (but not approved) though I did use portions to answer Leaf's
                        > > questions. The rest was left out due to the nature of the nasty
                        > ness
                        > > He can claim what ever he wishes, here or on ET. I have nothing
                        > > further to debate with him. BTW, I haven't posted on ET in a very
                        > > long time!
                        > >
                        > > Anyway, below is a copy of the questions I had concerning your post
                        > > about integrity.  A portion of the post was directed to others
                        > > besides yourself, of which I explained the reasoning in this post,
                        > as
                        > > well in posts in answer to Leaf, Zoey and Rowan_Oak22.  If Leaf
                        > > wishes to continue dialog with any of these individuals privately,
                        > > that is his business. But I do not feel the need to prove, provide
                        > or
                        > > justify myself to him!
                        > >
                        > > Again, please understand I am curious and the questions were with
                        > > good intent.
                        > >
                        > > Liz
                        > >
                        > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                        > > Message #2687
                        > >
                        > > Sharon ;-) Re: integrity
                        > >
                        > > Hi Non ekster,
                        > > It seems weird to me as well! It started with Marlasobbing
                        > > coming over here from ET. She, apparently, wanted to share
                        > > (with more people) her frustrations, anger, and some negative
                        > > information about her ex-6th Initiate boyfriend and that he
                        > > wasn't very "spiritual" since he carried a condom next to his
                        > > Eck I.D. card, and that he cheated on her with hookers! Of
                        > > course, I don't know how she really knew about the condom,
                        > > the cheating, or the hookers, but it was a juicy story about a
                        > > male H.I. misbehaving (which is really nothing new for either
                        > > gender for Eckists in general). She, also, mentioned how he
                        > > had taken her for an E.S.A. session and that she liked this
                        > > female H.I. and, basically, said that the E.S.A. was very
                        > > convincing with her silver tongue and friendly demeanor.
                        > >
                        > > I don't see that the term Victim Consciousness is always a
                        > > New Age term, especially, when it's applied to the wrong
                        > > "relationship" choices that we make. Sometimes the rejected
                        > > person will place all blame on the other person while not taking
                        > > responsibility for making a bad choice, seeing the signs, and
                        > > admitting they screwed up. Closing one's eyes to the truth and
                        > > then blaming the other person or someone else, to me, is a form
                        > > of Victim Consciousness. It's kind of like how some women will
                        > > choose "bad boys" and then not take responsibility for it or fail
                        > > to (and refuse to) look into the "why" and then taking the steps
                        > > to correct their destructive decision making processes. Life
                        > becomes
                        > > one long drama or soap opera for some people. Maybe they enjoy
                        > > the attention too! I'm not saying this was what Marla was doing,
                        > > but it seemed like it was possible and after awhile. It wasn't like
                        > > it was a super long relationship (one year) IMO. Plus, she still
                        > saw
                        > > it in a "romantic" way! That's why I agreed with Liz and said that
                        > > it was seeming like this was a one-sided version (of the truth)
                        > > from a woman scorned. I know that I should not have "talked about"
                        > > Marla nor made this observation or assumption, but then again it
                        > > reminded me of situations in the past where I saw others caught in
                        > > similar circumstances and one heard only one side of the
                        > relationship
                        > > story.
                        > >
                        > > Leaf then came to Marla's defense while being unaware of Zoey's
                        > > neg. involvment. Zoey (he/she) got very nasty on the site and
                        > privately.
                        > > There was also confusion with what was said to whom. I was unable
                        > > to discuss this with Leaf privately because he had already formed
                        > an
                        > > opinion. I put Leaf on temporary moderated status because I didn't
                        > > want to keep the discussion escalating. Unfortunately Liz (Co-
                        > moderator)
                        > > read a pending message and replied to it in part. This created even
                        > > more disharmony which became impossible to resolve.
                        > >
                        > > Anyway, it was an interesting learning experience. I admit that
                        > > there were mistakes made (people aren't perfect) and that it could
                        > > have been done better and kinder and there could have been more
                        > > tolerance and consideration given to one another. So for that, on
                        > my
                        > > part, I apologize to Marla and to everyone.
                        > >
                        > > Prometheus
                        > > p.s. I do appreciate Liz being a Co-moderator and taking care of
                        > > the sites while I am away. Thanks Liz!
                        > >
                        >
                         
                         
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