A Reply to Leaf
I guess I should reply to your criticisms openly and
honestly from my perspectivejust the way you like
it! I guess I wasn't a member long enough in eckankar
to have achieved the knowledge and insights that you
have so perfected. Yeah, I'm tired of your criticisms, like
my post on victim consciousness in which you rather
condescendingly stated you agreed with some of it but
didn't entirely and didn't want to take the time to write
a discourse explaining how you differed with what I posted.
But you know whatI don't really care whether you liked
my post, agreed with it, in part or not, and I was glad you
spared me your dissertation regarding it. However, I was
just expressing myselfI wasn't going for a literary award!
It doesn't matter what value it might have for you or others
that's up to the reader to give it merit or toss it in file 13! LOL!
But I do think you sound pompous at times, but I also assume
you don't intend this since you stated you didn't expect my
reaction to your use of the word "defense." I guess I saw it as
an intro for still another debate. I'm not into debatingtook the
course, and don't really care to partake of such activity. But I
realize you thrive on itgood for you! I have enjoyed reading
some of your debates over on A.R.E., but ESA is a discussion
group, not a debating society . . . .
Leaf's post with some inserts from me:
"This post addresses Marla's treatment by the moderators of this
group, as well as a few other issues. I do hope that open dialogue
can result from this.]
As I see it, you've ignored the point of the post by Rowan (see the
post, "Just an Opinion."
####Most likely there was a reason for this, or maybe a reply will
be coming from Prometheus. After all, Rowan's message was
posted, wasn't it? Plus, I don't think anyone has to respond to any
and all posts, or do so immediately, to what satisfy your whims?
"The issues regarding eckankar are not at all
limited only to such things as Klemp's writings as you may define
####Duh! This really gets me, Leaf, because if you read the archives
you would find that the discussions have been vast, especially,
including Paul Twitchell and Darwin Gross, and more. So this is really
a fallacious statement. Why you would think the discussions are
limited only to Klemp is ridiculous. Actually a cheap shotespecially
when you leap in here after a few months of absence. Maybe, you've
missed a lot and operate on assumptions mainly when you want to
analyze someone or something. Maybe you should do some more
research before you leap to conclusions.
"When a religion is based upon a foundation of false premises,
the fraudulence reaches into all aspects of the group, including
even personal psychology of the individual member as well as
interpersonal relationships. As I see it, this is what Marla raised
as an issue with her question to the group, and it is absolutely
##### Yes, her question had merit. She also asked the same
thing on ET where I took the time to reply, and when she came
over to ESA with the exact same post, I suggested she could bring
my replies from ET as well. I didn't think I needed to repeat myself.
Her question/topic has been addressed before on this site as well
as other sites in the past. My post on victim consciousness was
aimed to help anyone, including Marla, with troubles and issues to
check out a link that I have found helpful in the pastthat was the
purpose of my post. It was not directed at you even though I did
quote a portion of your post to link it to the discussion that
was taking place. And I also pointed out in another post that we
were not therapists, so in good faith, I also suggested that this
might help her as well. I don't see that I was being insensitive to
her at all.
"Her question to the group (see her first post or two) was completely
appropriate. You, as a moderator, as well as Liz, the co-moderator,
to varying degrees tried to invalidate her experience in exactly the
same manner that tends to occur in eckankar from the eckankar
leadership. As I see it, you've both over-reacted to her posts, and
responded with the same sort of callousness and lack of
understanding so often encountered in the eckankar organization.
I frankly find this appalling. While there are many examples of off-
topic posts (I would consider some of the personal comments and
petty squabbles from HU Chat that seem to flow over into this group
sometimes falling into that category), Marla's post was certainly not
of that nature. Marla is not an Eckist, therefore she is not entirely
familiar with the jargon, attitudes, and world view of eckists (which
apparently lingers on for awhile with some former eckists), so she
would not know how to avoid the entanglements and dysfunctionality
that may be encountered in the eckist psyche that may be still
lingering. She would thus not phrase things as you might, and she
might not have a well-developed sense of the odd form of "spiritual
correctness" that certainly exists as part of the eckankar mind-set."
#### Since I don't know Marla personally or the eckist ex boyfriend,
I really wouldn't rush to such conclusions as you seem to be doing
here. These are your assumptions really, but I can understand that
you are basing them on your own personal knowledge of eckists.
However, I don't really care to judge even this eck ex boyfriend of
Marla's simply because I only know what Marla is saying here. I don't
think that is fair. However, if you re-read my posts to Marla, I did
attempt to answer her question.
"She deserved better."
####I'm only replying for myself here. Again I don't really know
her to make that judgment! Actually, I tend not to point fingers at
who deserves what or notseems kind of god-like to do so! : )
"To give just one example, people seemed to misunderstand her
comment about the condom in the wallet, which was completely
mischaracterized and taken out of context.
To quote an exchange between you and your co-moderator:
Liz wrote: >Of course the subject title is integrity.... And I don't
find anything wrong with a person having his / or her eck
membership card in their wallet. Nor do I really care about the fact
this individual has a condom right next to it! I think it is wise for this
or any person to be using protection!<
Promethius responded: >I also agree!<
You're missing the point in this exchange. If my romantic partner
found a condom in my wallet, she'd know that I was seeking sex from
other women. (We don't usually use condoms, preferring to have a
natural experience. Even if we did, I wouldn't generally carry one in
my wallet, since we would have plenty on hand.) I think Marla's
point was she knew the condom indicated her sixth initiate boyfriend
was having sex with other women, which she felt violated the trust
between them as a couple, and she expected more from someone who's
supposed to be a High Priest. She was naturally hurt and felt
#### You "think" you know what Marla was thinking regarding the
condom in her boyfriend's wallet based on your own life story. Again,
I can't judge this ex boyfriend on why it was in his wallet nor am I
interested in this particular part of the story. And frankly I don't' care
what you prefer regarding your sex life. However, now that I think of it,
what was Marla doing looking in the guy's wallet? Who knows!!
"So I think it was significant to her that the membership card, which
indicates his status of being a high initiate, was in the wallet
right next to the condom. I think you folks might call that a "waking
dream" if this had been your own experience. Perhaps if Marla had
used such jargon common to eckankar, you may have given her a pass.
Its all about the way she wrote her post, rather than the underlying
question she raised. You and Liz saw only the words, and failed to
grasp her overall intent. You both reacted in the way I remember
eckists behaving. It was extraordinarily callous."
####Leaf, maybe you think too muchthinking for yourself, thinking
for others, thinking for everyone!!! Again, you are assuming what people
are thinking and how they'd reacted and why--yada, yada!
"You even proceeded to have a dialogue about her in the third person,
as if she was a fly on the wall with little need for respect. You
turned her into an object to discuss amongst yourselves. And of
course, all this offended her, when she was obviously expecting a
little more support from this ex-eckist site."
#####I'm not sure about this; I'd have to revisit the posts. But I guess
it wasn't any of my posts? However, it seemed that Marla was being
rather redundant and it seemed to me that it might develop into some
sort of soap operaoh, yeah, didn't she title one post My Romance with
an Eckist? It seemed like a one-sided drama, so basically, once I replied
a couple times, I didn't have anything more to offer her. If she needed
more, a few of us did suggest some professional help for her. That was
sincere and caring!
"Here's another example:
Prometheus wrote: >Well, it does kind of fall under the "scorned
woman" category in order to seek revenge for a bruised ego. And,
afterall, he only claimed to have been with a "hooker."<
She did not identify her boyfriend, so the assertion that she's
seeking revenge is absurd, as well as extremely judgmental. Revenge
implies hurting someone. How can she significantly hurt this fellow
if he wasn't identified? You're worried that he'll have a bruised ego
if he happens, however unlikey it would be, to read this site? My
god, you folks speak ill of eckists like Cheryl and Rich all the
time. Isn't it a bit hypocritical to assume her motives are less pure
than your own? How on earth would you know what her motives were?
And it even seems as if you're defending her boyfriend, as if you can
somehow determine his statements of having been with a hooker
were "only claims." This is ridiculous and rather strange.
I think the most judgmental comment made to Marla was this one:
>BTW- Have you ever thought of changing your pseudonym tosomething else like Marlalaughing or Marlajumpingforjoy? What's with
the "sobbing" because I'm not buying into a victim consciousness.<
May I ask just who you presume yourself to be to suggest she is
suffering from victimization of herself? Have you ever been through a
break up of a relationship? Did it hurt, or are you so above human
suffering and pain that you can judge others who might indicate they
have been hurt from a relationship? This is the sort of callous,
insensitive comment I would expect from Rich at
alt.religion.eckankar, or from Harold Klemp. What gives you such
moral and spiritual authority that you can make such a sweepingly
judgmental comment to another person you don't even know? You know
nothing of her history, nothing of her life experience, yet you
believe you can weigh in with such psycho-babble? My god, how shallow."
####Leaf, you are being what you accuse others of doing, "making a
sweepingly judgmental comment to another person(s) you don't even
know!" I think you are being very unfair, and it makes me wonder why
in the world, you have to come into this site and attack like this? If you
see this as a bad situation, you have only made it worse with your
pontifications and your holier than thou rant here! I wasn't an eckist
very long, and you know what? I think that I was greatly spared the
development of a super inflated egodid your ego develop back then
and just keep growing and growing? Or is this your post eckankar flaw?
Talk about psycho-babble!!!
"Another oddity in the last several days are some of the things
alluded to regarding Zoey. I've read many of Zoey's posts, and I've
found them to be intelligent and insightful, and I've often thought I
could have written them myself."
#### Nice pat on your back, Leafhow humble! Oh, maybe I've
misread this!! Maybe, it needed a better wording, so as not to be
misconstrued? Well, those things happen, I guess! LOL!
" Even before she left the group and
posted her reply to Marla regarding Liz's attack on the eckankartruth
site, there was this odd request from her from Mish, which was
followed later by another possibly related statement from Liz:
>ps, you might have already posted about your eck experienceon here or another site, but would you mind refreshing us? How
many years you were a member and your level of participation?
How long you have been out and why you dropped out? Just curious.
#### I asked this because I forgot when and how zoey introduced
herself to the group. She was asking a lot of questions about eckankar
specifically the recent one about Klemp's family, so I wondered what
her experience and history might have been regarding these questions.
It seems odd that she had lots of questions but little information from
her end, even though she mentioned in her reply that she did keep
abreast with eckists. Odd really and I was just curious. Seems that you
have read too much into this. Zoey was asking questions to the group
and in normal dialogue I asked her somedon't see the harm in that.
I can get posters mixed up, so it helps to be refreshened sometimes.
However, zoey was not being really true on this site.
"Now, I realize this request could be completely innocent curiosity,
but I began to wonder about it after reading this comment by Liz:
>How hard is it to create a fake ID, go to the ex eck chat groups, ora.r.e., read other peoples comments concerning eckankrap, then call
it their own! Here is an example; Sharon from ET has shared how
Cheryl Grundy doesn't know an SK quote, from a made up one. My point;
Zoey came here to ESA not too many months ago claiming the very same
thing, same story nearly word for word, or was that fishnik (?)
however s/he spelled their fake ID? Or hey here is a scenerio, maybe
Zoey is Sharon? ;-)))) Sharon I hope you are reading this!? LOL<
So in this comment, Liz is accusing Zoey of being Sharon, which, upon
reading this, I was reminded of Mish's odd request for a personal
history from Zoey. Do some folks here really believe Zoey is Sharon???"
#######My question to zoey was not odd, thank you! And no, I know
zoey is not Sharon. Liz was just jokingdidn't you see the smileys?
Liz was pointing out that zoey used some of Sharon's stories from a.r.e.
same stuff, so maybe you should try to re-read what Liz wrote? Or
maybe Liz will explain it to you? It looked like identity thief! LOL!
"Liz also wrote:
>So how is that workin for you Zoey_true? OR shall we call youCheryl, or maybe it's Rich?<
So now Liz thinks Zoey is Cheryl or Rich, who are two vocal staunch
members of eckankar?????
Liz also wrote:
>By The Way Zoey, for your info I am one of the moderators of thisgroup! So don't blame Prometheus for everything that goes on here!
How's that workin for you Zoey? Oh, and before I forget; Welcome to
the group Rowan_oak22...interesting that you just created your
account the very day Zoey left us! See how spirit works? One leaves
and we are replaced with another member. :-) Wonder if this is a
I can only wonder what this comment means. Does she think spirit
brought in a person to replace Zoey? As if spirit is choosing sides?
Or is she hinting Rowan IS Zoey? And how does this make Rowan feel
as a new member, with one of the moderators using the name of a new
member of this group to insult a departing one?
What a class act you folks have here. This is a circus.
The attack of Marla's post, especially by your co-moderator, Liz, was
entirely uncalled for, and should be addressed. There is simply no
excuse for an attack upon an unsuspecting, innocent person who posts
here. There are better ways to handle such posts, even when yopu may
not think a post is appropriate. You, as the moderator, seem to be
ignoring the significance of Liz's disruptive outburst, and in fact,
you seemed to have supported it. I am beginning to question whether I
would ever direct a friend to this site who may want a supportive
group to help with leaving eckankar.
Which begs the question, how long does it take for the eckankar
indoctrination of a member to wear off after leaving eckankar? From
what I observe in this little fiasco, it seems that many former
members still work from under a cloud of indoctrination of which they
may not be cognizant."
####Leaf, you, too, should look for your own cloud of indoctrination
as well. Sometimes your writings remind me of the arrogance H.I.'s are
prone to display, especially when they believe they can read other
people's minds. Yes, this site is not perfect. I agree with that, and yes,
it seems like a circus act going on here as well right now, and you have
very generously contributed to it. I don't know who Marla is. I don't have
a problem with her. However, I do know things about zoey now and well,
I can't go there.
"You can ignore this post as is your right, you can ban me from your
list, but this really deserves comment. With what I've seen in this
particular circumstance, I'm not sure this group is serving its
#### I think you have been way too critical of this group. I hope
you appreciate that your post is up regardless of your accusations
and chastisements. I also hope you feel better for it. Personally, I'm
disgusted and appalled with you at the moment, so I guess there is
P.S. It doesn't really matter what your take on this will be like in
the light of day. I think it has been discussed more than enough. I,
for one, need a break from your disruptive speculations.