Re: Victim Consciousness
- --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
>I don't see the word "defense" or "defend" to be a derogatory
> Hey, Leaf!
> Actually, I didn't write my post as a defense at all; rather
> it was my opinion just as you have expressed yours.
comment, nor did I intend it to be in my post.
Frankly, in my view it is perfectly acceptable for a person to defend
a view they have expressed, so long as they don't take it all too
seriously, and in fact, people do this constantly on this and every
other forum I've participated in, whether admitted to or not.
So, if the word bothered you, please understand I did not anticipate
> BTW, in your post here, you seem to have separated yourselfabout
> from this comment of yours and I wonder why that is?
> Leaf said:
> "One could say nearly everyone posting here is indulging in victim
> consciousness, and in fact, this is exactly what eckists do say
> nearly all of you."I was simply pointing out that nearly everyone posting here and on
> I guess they never point that same finger at you?
the other ex-eckankar groups is considered to be dwelling in "victim
consciousness" by the eckists who I've communicated with at
alt.religion.eckankar, such as Rich, Cher, Doug, and the others. I
used the second person plural form to emphasize that all of YOU
(meaning everyone posting here) are thought to be such by them. This
demonstrates the point I was making that anyone on either side of a
debate can accuse the other side of dwelling in victim consciousness
if they are complaining about mistreatment.
The irony is that eckists complain about mistreatment from former
members all the time, as if pointing out plagiarism is foul play,
indicating they, too, feel victimized. But of course, since the
word "victim" is such a dirty word to them, they will never admit
this, and when I've brought this up to them, they really get steamed
So, who is or isn't a victim is always relative to one's perspective.
Its a matter of semantics. If the word victim is perceived as a
negative, such people acting like victims (as eckists sometimes do)
will deny they are acting like victims.
But anyway, I've been called all sorts of names, including being
hopelessly caught up in "victim consciousness" by the folks at a.r.e,
simply for speaking my mind about my experience in eckankar.
What unmitigated new age psycho babble it all is, in my view. It is
a gross exageration to think anyone raising an issue is falling into
>As for MarlaOne could be equally concerned about anyone here (besides Marla)
> sharing her story, I think that is fine, but my concern is that
> she might become stuck in strong feelings of being a victim
> when in fact, she found her way out of that unpleasant en-
> tanglement. To me, she is a survivor and has done very well to
> speak up and get out of there! : )
becoming stuck in victimization, since there is a whole lot of
complaining going on about eckankar and its various personalities.
Yet, as I see it, that wouldn't be appropriate for me (speaking for
myself)to worry about unless asked. Everyone posting here is doing so
voluntarily and most seem to be capable of taking care of themselves,
and most don't seem to be terribly in danger of becoming stuck in
victimhood. This is ridiculous. Marla seems to be quite capable of
taking care of herself, according to what she has stated, but I'll
let her speak for herself, as she seems very able to do.
Frankly, all this worrying about who's falling into victimization is
way to ecky for my taste, but that just my opinion. Its the kind of
thing eckists seem to indulge in.
> --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
> "tomleafeater" <tianyue@> wrote:
> > Hi Mish,
> > I actually agree with most of what you've written in your defense
> > the term "victim consciousness," with some significantexceptions,
> > although I'm not interested in spending time in a point by pointsteer
> > answer to all you've written in your post.
> > The problem is that the term is so often misused that I tend to
> > away from using that particular phrase. Too many peoplecompletely
> > misunderstand its application, and use it as a manipulative toolto
> > invalidate any and all objections and complaints about others'consciousness,
> > behavior. It is used to defend destructive behavior.
> > Ironically, one could say, using the flawed logic that is often
> > employed, that ex-eckists are all indulging in victim
> > as they flail away at eckankar on a daily basis on internetforums,
> > but that would generally be an incorrect usage of the term,although
> > some former members may indeed wallow in victimhood. Anyone canplay
> > the "victim consciousness" card against any person who makes anyany
> > complaint they don't agree with. It can work both ways in almost
> > disagreement.about
> > One could say nearly everyone posting here is indulging in victim
> > consciousness, and in fact, this is exactly what eckists do say
> > nearly all of you.for
> > In other words, there are times in which people do unnecessarily
> > indulge in their woes and exploit their predicaments, milking it
> > all its worth, when they would be better off picking themselvesup
> > and finding the strength to carry on. And of course, there aretimes
> > in which raising one's voice, speaking one's mind, taking a standmy
> > against invasive, harmful behavior is not victimization, but an
> > example of courage and strength. That is what Marla is doing, in
> > view.oneself
> > And also, there is the everyday, completely natural give and take
> > that any person will experience, and the notion that allowing
> > healthy flexibility and natural breathing room is a flaw is justphrase
> > downright rigid, dogmatic thinking, which is precisely why the
> > is so often employed by cults, since the term can be used toinsulate
> > the cult from criticism. It is yet another method of exertingcontrol
> > over members.completely
> > So I'm in agreement that there are times when people become the
> > archetypal victim, and there are times in which people are
> > justified in speaking up about mistreatment. To not see theobvious,
> > difference is simply unintelligent, and it is senseless to get in
> > lengthy debates about the difference, since people will either
> > understand this, or not.
> > So I won't beat a dead horse, since to me the difference is
> > and if it isn't obvious to others, as I see it they are misled,or
> > either by the influence of the ideology of a religion (that they
> > still follow or once followed) or by their personal disposition
> > world view that they've come to accept.thought.
> > But there is a difference, if one simply gives it a little
> > Leafeater
> > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
> > <mishmisha9@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi, All!
> > >
> > > The statements on victim consciousness got me to
> > > think about it a bit more and how it relates to me, and
> > > why basically I don't practice it for long or if at all! I
> > > to snap out of it! : )invalidating
> > >
> > > Leaf pointed out in a recent post how eckists do not
> > > listen to other people's emotional hurts by blaming
> > > the injured for taking on a victim consciousness and
> > > that one should practice detachment. In other words,
> > > eckists are taught to bury their feelings and emotions
> > > and not practice empathy and compassion. This certainly
> > > creates a lot of hurt, mistrust and misunderstandings.
> > >
> > > Leaf wrote:
> > > "They might call your complaints about their behavior or
> > > your natural expression of personal hurt to be the handy,
> > > ever-present putdown so often used in eckankar, known as
> > > "victim consciousness," which is yet another way of
> > > your comments and validating their own. People love the "victimimpact
> > > consciousness" mantra until the shoe is on the other foot, in
> > > which case it then suddenly becomes rephrased as a noble effort
> > > to expose the truth."
> > >
> > > Leaf suggests that it is good to let your feelings be known and
> > > to cry, and I agree. However, there is still the negative
> > thatcome
> > > one suffers from too long embracing a victim state of
> > consciousness.
> > > Operating under a victim state of consciousness usually doesn't
> > > help a person to thrive and survive whatever life's challenges
> > > one's way. Also, one needs to measure the severity of thesecrisis
> > > and hurts. The thing is one has to become aware of one's ownhandling
> > > behaviors and reactions to these upsets and disappointments, and
> > > how to react and cope.
> > >
> > > This is why professional therapy can help one learn to cope and
> > > handle one's great life problems and become stronger at
> > > others that surely will come. The eckankar experiences we eachto
> > > have had vary. They might be similar in many ways, but it is
> > different
> > > according to the individual. When I refuse to view myself as a
> > victim
> > > of an eckist or eckankar, I am not practicing detachmentnot at
> > all!
> > > Rather, I am embracing and practicing my survivor personality.
> > Before
> > > I knew about eckankar, I had become aware of the importance not
> > > allow "victim consciousness" take over by life, but rather howit
> > is morehave
> > > important to develop techniques that are useful in handling all
> > life's
> > > situations, including the negative and difficult experiences.
> > >
> > > A very interesting and helpful book that directed me in that
> > direction
> > > is the one by Al Siebert, PhD, "The Survivor Personality." I
> > > mentioned it before on this site. Here is an excerpt from thefirst
> > > chapter:do
> > >
> > > "When you are hit by adversity or have your life disrupted, how
> > youtheir
> > > respond? Some people feel victimized. They blame others for
> > > plight. Some shut down. They feel helpless and overwhelmed.Some
> > > get angry. They lash out and try to hurt anyone they can. Afew,
> > however,adversity.
> > > reach within themselves and find ways to cope with the
> > Theythrive
> > > eventually make things turn out well. These are life's best
> > survivors,
> > > those people with an amazing capacity for surviving crises and
> > extreme
> > > difficulties. They are resilient and durable in distressing
> > situations. They
> > > regain emotional balance quickly, adapt, and cope well. They
> > byinto a
> > > gaining strength from adversity and often convert misfortune
> > gift.inborn
> > > Are life's best survivors different from other people? No. They
> > survive,
> > > cope, and thrive better because they are better at using the
> > > abilities possessed by all humans."survivor
> > >
> > > What Dr. Siebert professes is that we can all learn these
> > skillswhere
> > > and in addition to his books and workshops, he has a website
> > oneit on
> > > can go to find out more about these useful techniques. I have
> > thethose
> > > links page here, but I'll post the site in my message too:
> > >
> > > http://www.thrivenet.com/
> > >
> > > It helped me a lot at a time when I had gone through one of
> > > horrific life experiencesin the days, before I found eckankarand
> > itto
> > > has continued to help me post eckankar.
> > >
> > > So, yes, cry and get your emotions out there, but the caveat is
> > notproductive
> > > let it muddle and overwhelm you. One needs to learn from life's
> > negative
> > > experiences in order to heal and also to prevent a repeat.
> > Embracing and
> > > staying in a "victim state of consciousness" is counter
> > for one's
> > > emotional and spiritual growth.
> > >
> > > Mish
> > >