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ECKANKAR: The Wisdom Notes, June 2007

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  • prometheus_973
    Klemp Tries to Keep ECKists Off the Internet by Using Fear Tactics of Harmful BEAMS. The Wisdom Notes- June 2007: HK: … the Internet, with its e-mail,
    Message 1 of 12 , Jun 18, 2007
      Klemp Tries to Keep ECKists Off the Internet
      by Using Fear Tactics of Harmful "BEAMS."

      The Wisdom Notes- June 2007:

      HK: "… the Internet, with its e-mail,
      instant messaging, games, RESEARCH
      GOLD MINES, study courses, and so
      much more.

      Many get lost and then swallowed up
      in this virtual universe. In doing so,
      they lose sight of the ECK."

      [ME] But don't Eckists have their Inner
      Mahanta to Guide them and Protect them,
      or is this just more of HK's lip service?

      HK: "The Internet, therefore, can be a golden
      window that opens one to unlimited possibilities
      of information and entertainment.

      Yet it can reveal a dark side too."

      [ME] Yes, the dark side of anything can show
      itself and be a negative factor, especially, for
      unsupervised children. However, adults are more
      mature and have freedom of choice. Besides, isn't
      this a KAL controlled world of tests and challenges
      and why Soul is here for spiritual growth?

      HK: "Once cautions were aired about radio, comic
      books, and TV."

      [ME] Exactly, so what's your point Mr. Klemp?
      Klemp seems to be talking out of both sides of his
      mouth on this issue and wants it both ways.
      However, this is more of a ploy to confuse Eckists
      while creating more fears like with the EMR fear
      that he has already established. One has to wonder
      what good is the Mahanta if he can't protect Eckists
      from the KAL who only "rules" the Lower Worlds.
      What happened to the Higher Consciousness of the
      Higher Initiations? Klemp repeats this message
      of fear in the H.I. Letter!

      HK: "And still our world spins lazily on.
      Unfortunately, some people rely on electronic
      toys to get themselves booted up. They're
      addicts, though, they refuse to face reality.
      Glued to their chairs, they sit and eat, growing
      Obese."

      [ME] It seems Klemp is definitely talking about
      Cheryl Grumpyman! Maybe he's including his ex-wife,
      some ESC staffers and a few RESAs (among others)
      too!

      HK: "This is a worst-case scenario that appears
      all too often. They prefer to communicate with
      others online instead of face-to-face."

      [ME] Now that's a really stupid and narrow-minded
      statement! Klemp is an Idiot! People can't travel those
      distances in the physical world of limitation of time
      and space. And it's more convenient, cheaper, and
      "Green" to communicate via computer. I guess that if
      one follows Klemp's distorted logic we shouldn't use
      the telephone either! After all, using the phone is not
      "face-to-face" and it is an electronic device that is held
      very close to the brain and emits EMR! Be afraid… very
      afraid!

      HK: "A danger inherent in any outside attraction is
      that a chela finds little time for the Spiritual Exercises
      of ECK. So what is missing? Quietude."

      [ME] So, if this is a problem or a negative with
      "ANY outside attraction" why pick on just the "Internet"
      with all of the positive benefits it has?! Besides, this
      technology is, also, a means of uniting more people
      than the Mahanta will ever be able to do! Why are there
      people at the ESC (and locally) assigned to Internet
      media? See, it's to scare the gullible and fearful from
      discovering sites like this.

      HK seems to be inept as an all powerful Mahanta
      to influence and control chelas on the Inner Planes
      let alone on the outer. Therefore, he resorts to KAListic
      methods by using the written word (print media,
      Internet), art work, tapes, CD's, DVD's, and the
      telephone/fax to get his outer (Lower Plane) message
      out. Like other religious fundamentalist leaders Klemp
      would love to have civil laws and government control
      implemented to control his flock of hens (roosters too)
      in that Eck Henhouse.

      HK: "There must be an oasis of tranquility, of peace
      and quiet, for there to be time for spiritual exercises,
      just plain reading, or even daydreaming. Reading, for
      example, has the power to open children, youth, and
      adults new horizons, without the constant bombardment
      of INVISIBLE ELECTRONIC BEAMS that hammer the body."

      [ME] Actually, one can do the S.E. before or after
      TV, i-Pod, radio, telephone, computer, golf, tennis,
      ocean surfing, snow boarding, intros, shopping, etc.
      But, isn't daydreaming kind of Astral?! And, isn't Fear
      mongering, for whatever reason, a KAL technique since
      Eckists have the Mahanta to "protect" them while non-
      Eckists don't! It doesn't take a "chela" to use the off-
      switch once in awhile! LOL!

      HK: "This Hammering Weakens the Body's Defenses.
      Over the course of many years, an individual will
      Succumb to Any Number of Illnesses, ALL apparently
      without cause."

      [ME] Klemp is saying that those chelas at the ESC
      who work at their computers 8 hours a day, 5 days
      a week are also having their bodies hammered and
      weakened by these "Invisible Electronic Beams"
      and "will succumb to any number of illnesses" and
      "all apparently without cause." It would seem that
      these ill chelas have a cause for legal action and
      compensation against Klemp and the Eckankar
      Church for Not protecting them from these harmful
      "beams." And, since the Mahanta is the highest
      consciousness on the planet his word on this subject
      must be heavily weighed by the courts if there is a
      Workers Compensation Claim filed with the state,
      or other lawsuit claiming supervised neglect of a
      "known" hazard.

      HK: "A quiet time for reading will prove beneficial
      to one. He can sit at his own rate of reading, stopping
      now and again to let a point settle in. Again, an exciting
      story may cause him to race on, to see what will happen
      next. Reading also allows for daydreaming."

      [ME] Actually, people can quietly "read" on the Internet
      and at any "rate" or speed! I can even stop and ponder a
      point and daydream if I want!!! And, I can read things
      that are current to the Now and are, therefore, not yet
      (or will ever be) in book form!

      What kind of "Modern" Prophet is Klemp? This
      self-created title seems like another oxymoron…
      like military intelligence! In truth, Klemp is like
      most religious leaders and wants to control his
      members by any means possible when using fear,
      guilt, and shame… and that carrot! Only with
      Eckankar the "carrot" (i.e. Initiation, Higher
      Consciousness, Spiritual Freedom, Self-Mastery)
      is supposed to be caught and eaten in this lifetime
      instead of the next!

      HK: "And all without the Brutal Hammering of
      Electronic Meteors that shower down upon the
      Naked, unprotected planet of his Physical being."

      [ME] I'll bet HK loved using "naked." What a
      visualization! However, does this mean that my
      i-Pod and cell phone, telephone, TV, radio, car
      electronics, vacuum cleaner, clock radio, etc.
      are "bad" too, or is it just our computers and the
      Internet?! Why can't the Mahanta protect, at least,
      the Higher Initiates?! This is also bad news for
      those Internet Eck Book Discussions and sites
      like HU-Chat and Chela-Chat, etc. Then again,
      most Eckists won't follow HK's nutty advice
      anyway! <smile>

      HK: "People may get lost in a virtual book world
      too."

      [ME] People also "get lost" trying to find substance
      from Klemps talks. These spoken words are even
      more "virtual" than computer images. Klemp has
      to convert his words to print ($$$) years after they
      were spoken, or rely on unofficial note taking and
      tapes being released (for sale) at the next seminar.
      But, for someone who constantly dwells in the past
      this is no big deal for Klemp.

      HK: "Their interests may lie in stories of the past,
      knowing that history—fact or fiction—matters,
      for it can teach them about themselves. A well-done
      history will study characters in depth, BUT with the
      advantage of objectivity at arm's length. In that way,
      readers can get beyond the haze that surrounds their
      own circumstances. So reading is important."

      [ME] Actually, Klemp is saying that Only reading
      Books, or print material, is important because the
      "Electronic Meteors" of EMR from a computer
      will produce a fog or "haze" in one's mind and
      this will prevent chelas learning about "themselves."

      Yet, HK has also stated that all thoughts, words,
      and books are of the Lower Planes of the mind.

      How does this really affect the Eck chela if the
      PR about the Inner/Outer Mahanta is true?! See,
      Klemp is proving that all of the crap that Eckists
      are told is true or imagine to be true is Not!

      HK: "However, so is writing, with pen and paper
      instead of on a computer."

      [ME] Klemp is a joke as a Modern Prophet and
      as spiritual leader. He's not only stuck in the past,
      but he fears the Truth that Eckists might discover
      on the Internet. Remember when word processors
      came out and what an improvement that was for
      writers! No more white-out! And computers are
      even better because writers have spell check and
      can save huge amounts of material and do their
      own publications. One doesn't have to be online,
      but according to Klemp being off-line is bad too!
      He's such an "expert" Liar isn't he!

      Anyway, there was more to HK's wordy article
      intended on scaring Eckists away from the Internet,
      [and sites telling the Truth about Eckankar], but
      it was redundant and irrelevant so I deleted it.

      Hey HK… Have A Nice Day! I have Just one question,
      When you write do you really use an ink pen or a quill?!

      Prometheus
    • mishmisha9
      Prometheus posted: Klemp Tries to Keep ECKists Off the Internet by Using Fear Tactics of Harmful BEAMS. The Wisdom Notes- June 2007: Klemp wrote: … the
      Message 2 of 12 , Jun 22, 2007
        Prometheus posted:
        Klemp Tries to Keep ECKists Off the Internet
        by Using Fear Tactics of Harmful "BEAMS."

        The Wisdom Notes- June 2007:
        Klemp wrote:
        "… the Internet, with its e-mail,
        instant messaging, games, RESEARCH
        GOLD MINES, study courses, and so
        much more.

        Many get lost and then swallowed up
        in this virtual universe. In doing so,
        they lose sight of the ECK.

        The Internet, therefore, can be a golden
        window that opens one to unlimited possibilities
        of information and entertainment.

        Yet it can reveal a dark side too.

        Once cautions were aired about radio, comic
        books, and TV." . . .

        ##Prometheus, thanks for sharing Klemp's latest
        Wisdom Notes! I have to say that this ranks up
        there with Klemp's book "Those Wonderful ECK
        Masters" in his attempt to suppress truth and
        manipulate his chelas. Rather disgusting while
        so laughable how Klemp tries to maintain control
        of his power seat. For him and eckankar, the Internet
        is a definite threat as more and more chelas search
        for the truth, and find it on various discussion sites
        that eckankar is based on lies and deceptions, and
        Klemp is nothing but a fake master who feasts off
        the gullible.

        Logically, when Klemp mentions in his Wisdom Notes
        how once society cautioned about radio, comic books
        and TV it would seem his cautions about the Internet
        should fall on deaf ears. After all, we still listen to the
        radio, read comic books and watch TV. Those things were
        not passing fancies, and so too, the Internet is here to stay.
        I don't think civilization has sunk into a dark abyss because
        of these modern electronics. On the contrary, it seems
        life has been enhanced and improved for the most part.
        Now we can have an abundance of friends from all over the
        world that we can easily communicate with on a regular
        basis. We can learn lots of information about various
        subjects of interest and concern. We can stay current with
        the news, etc.

        So, really, what is Klemp's beef about the Internet? I
        imagine that he is losing more membership in his org and
        that he feels challenged on a daily basis to keep his
        lies and deceptions afloat. Yes, eckankar is one of those
        orgs that is nothing more than a sinking ship. Klemp as captain
        is not ready to go down, so he is constantly attempting
        to plug up the leaks on his ill fated ship. Funny to watch!

        Seems that the Internet and all those foxes guarding the eck
        hen house are big problems for Klemp! They go hand in hand,
        don't they! : )

        Mish


        ***************************************************************
        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
        "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

        Klemp Tries to Keep ECKists Off the Internet
        by Using Fear Tactics of Harmful "BEAMS."

        The Wisdom Notes- June 2007:

        HK: "… the Internet, with its e-mail,
        instant messaging, games, RESEARCH
        GOLD MINES, study courses, and so
        much more.

        Many get lost and then swallowed up
        in this virtual universe. In doing so,
        they lose sight of the ECK."

        [ME] But don't Eckists have their Inner
        Mahanta to Guide them and Protect them,
        or is this just more of HK's lip service?

        HK: "The Internet, therefore, can be a golden
        window that opens one to unlimited possibilities
        of information and entertainment.

        Yet it can reveal a dark side too."

        [ME] Yes, the dark side of anything can show
        itself and be a negative factor, especially, for
        unsupervised children. However, adults are more
        mature and have freedom of choice. Besides, isn't
        this a KAL controlled world of tests and challenges
        and why Soul is here for spiritual growth?

        HK: "Once cautions were aired about radio, comic
        books, and TV."

        [ME] Exactly, so what's your point Mr. Klemp?
        Klemp seems to be talking out of both sides of his
        mouth on this issue and wants it both ways.
        However, this is more of a ploy to confuse Eckists
        while creating more fears like with the EMR fear
        that he has already established. One has to wonder
        what good is the Mahanta if he can't protect Eckists
        from the KAL who only "rules" the Lower Worlds.
        What happened to the Higher Consciousness of the
        Higher Initiations? Klemp repeats this message
        of fear in the H.I. Letter!

        HK: "And still our world spins lazily on.
        Unfortunately, some people rely on electronic
        toys to get themselves booted up. They're
        addicts, though, they refuse to face reality.
        Glued to their chairs, they sit and eat, growing
        Obese."

        [ME] It seems Klemp is definitely talking about
        Cheryl Grumpyman! Maybe he's including his ex-wife,
        some ESC staffers and a few RESAs (among others)
        too!

        HK: "This is a worst-case scenario that appears
        all too often. They prefer to communicate with
        others online instead of face-to-face."

        [ME] Now that's a really stupid and narrow-minded
        statement! Klemp is an Idiot! People can't travel those
        distances in the physical world of limitation of time
        and space. And it's more convenient, cheaper, and
        "Green" to communicate via computer. I guess that if
        one follows Klemp's distorted logic we shouldn't use
        the telephone either! After all, using the phone is not
        "face-to-face" and it is an electronic device that is held
        very close to the brain and emits EMR! Be afraid… very
        afraid!

        HK: "A danger inherent in any outside attraction is
        that a chela finds little time for the Spiritual Exercises
        of ECK. So what is missing? Quietude."

        [ME] So, if this is a problem or a negative with
        "ANY outside attraction" why pick on just the "Internet"
        with all of the positive benefits it has?! Besides, this
        technology is, also, a means of uniting more people
        than the Mahanta will ever be able to do! Why are there
        people at the ESC (and locally) assigned to Internet
        media? See, it's to scare the gullible and fearful from
        discovering sites like this.

        HK seems to be inept as an all powerful Mahanta
        to influence and control chelas on the Inner Planes
        let alone on the outer. Therefore, he resorts to KAListic
        methods by using the written word (print media,
        Internet), art work, tapes, CD's, DVD's, and the
        telephone/fax to get his outer (Lower Plane) message
        out. Like other religious fundamentalist leaders Klemp
        would love to have civil laws and government control
        implemented to control his flock of hens (roosters too)
        in that Eck Henhouse.

        HK: "There must be an oasis of tranquility, of peace
        and quiet, for there to be time for spiritual exercises,
        just plain reading, or even daydreaming. Reading, for
        example, has the power to open children, youth, and
        adults new horizons, without the constant bombardment
        of INVISIBLE ELECTRONIC BEAMS that hammer the body."

        [ME] Actually, one can do the S.E. before or after
        TV, i-Pod, radio, telephone, computer, golf, tennis,
        ocean surfing, snow boarding, intros, shopping, etc.
        But, isn't daydreaming kind of Astral?! And, isn't Fear
        mongering, for whatever reason, a KAL technique since
        Eckists have the Mahanta to "protect" them while non-
        Eckists don't! It doesn't take a "chela" to use the off-
        switch once in awhile! LOL!

        HK: "This Hammering Weakens the Body's Defenses.
        Over the course of many years, an individual will
        Succumb to Any Number of Illnesses, ALL apparently
        without cause."

        [ME] Klemp is saying that those chelas at the ESC
        who work at their computers 8 hours a day, 5 days
        a week are also having their bodies hammered and
        weakened by these "Invisible Electronic Beams"
        and "will succumb to any number of illnesses" and
        "all apparently without cause." It would seem that
        these ill chelas have a cause for legal action and
        compensation against Klemp and the Eckankar
        Church for Not protecting them from these harmful
        "beams." And, since the Mahanta is the highest
        consciousness on the planet his word on this subject
        must be heavily weighed by the courts if there is a
        Workers Compensation Claim filed with the state,
        or other lawsuit claiming supervised neglect of a
        "known" hazard.

        HK: "A quiet time for reading will prove beneficial
        to one. He can sit at his own rate of reading, stopping
        now and again to let a point settle in. Again, an exciting
        story may cause him to race on, to see what will happen
        next. Reading also allows for daydreaming."

        [ME] Actually, people can quietly "read" on the Internet
        and at any "rate" or speed! I can even stop and ponder a
        point and daydream if I want!!! And, I can read things
        that are current to the Now and are, therefore, not yet
        (or will ever be) in book form!

        What kind of "Modern" Prophet is Klemp? This
        self-created title seems like another oxymoron…
        like military intelligence! In truth, Klemp is like
        most religious leaders and wants to control his
        members by any means possible when using fear,
        guilt, and shame… and that carrot! Only with
        Eckankar the "carrot" (i.e. Initiation, Higher
        Consciousness, Spiritual Freedom, Self-Mastery)
        is supposed to be caught and eaten in this lifetime
        instead of the next!

        HK: "And all without the Brutal Hammering of
        Electronic Meteors that shower down upon the
        Naked, unprotected planet of his Physical being."

        [ME] I'll bet HK loved using "naked." What a
        visualization! However, does this mean that my
        i-Pod and cell phone, telephone, TV, radio, car
        electronics, vacuum cleaner, clock radio, etc.
        are "bad" too, or is it just our computers and the
        Internet?! Why can't the Mahanta protect, at least,
        the Higher Initiates?! This is also bad news for
        those Internet Eck Book Discussions and sites
        like HU-Chat and Chela-Chat, etc. Then again,
        most Eckists won't follow HK's nutty advice
        anyway! <smile>

        HK: "People may get lost in a virtual book world
        too."

        [ME] People also "get lost" trying to find substance
        from Klemps talks. These spoken words are even
        more "virtual" than computer images. Klemp has
        to convert his words to print ($$$) years after they
        were spoken, or rely on unofficial note taking and
        tapes being released (for sale) at the next seminar.
        But, for someone who constantly dwells in the past
        this is no big deal for Klemp.

        HK: "Their interests may lie in stories of the past,
        knowing that history—fact or fiction—matters,
        for it can teach them about themselves. A well-done
        history will study characters in depth, BUT with the
        advantage of objectivity at arm's length. In that way,
        readers can get beyond the haze that surrounds their
        own circumstances. So reading is important."

        [ME] Actually, Klemp is saying that Only reading
        Books, or print material, is important because the
        "Electronic Meteors" of EMR from a computer
        will produce a fog or "haze" in one's mind and
        this will prevent chelas learning about "themselves."

        Yet, HK has also stated that all thoughts, words,
        and books are of the Lower Planes of the mind.

        How does this really affect the Eck chela if the
        PR about the Inner/Outer Mahanta is true?! See,
        Klemp is proving that all of the crap that Eckists
        are told is true or imagine to be true is Not!

        HK: "However, so is writing, with pen and paper
        instead of on a computer."

        [ME] Klemp is a joke as a Modern Prophet and
        as spiritual leader. He's not only stuck in the past,
        but he fears the Truth that Eckists might discover
        on the Internet. Remember when word processors
        came out and what an improvement that was for
        writers! No more white-out! And computers are
        even better because writers have spell check and
        can save huge amounts of material and do their
        own publications. One doesn't have to be online,
        but according to Klemp being off-line is bad too!
        He's such an "expert" Liar isn't he!

        Anyway, there was more to HK's wordy article
        intended on scaring Eckists away from the Internet,
        [and sites telling the Truth about Eckankar], but
        it was redundant and irrelevant so I deleted it.

        Hey HK… Have A Nice Day! I have Just one question,
        When you write do you really use an ink pen or a quill?!

        Prometheus
        >
      • mishmisha9
        Hi, All! Since Prometheus post on The Wisdom Notes June 2007 got side-tracked with the other discussion that Zoey brought to the forefront regarding Klemp s
        Message 3 of 12 , Jun 25, 2007
          Hi, All!

          Since Prometheus' post on The Wisdom Notes June 2007
          got side-tracked with the other discussion that Zoey
          brought to the forefront regarding Klemp's poor
          family relationships and his hiding his past, I thought
          I'd bring this more current topic back to the front page
          for more discussion. It seems to me that what Klemp is saying
          and writing now is of the upmost importance. I also find
          it really interesting how Klemp wants to stop chelas,
          especially the lower initiates from spending what he
          considers too much time exploring the Internet! I have to
          ask why he is bothered by this now??? What is going on
          in his world, that of eckankar, that he is compelled to
          put these alarms and concerns out there? Of course,
          from my perspective, it would seem that sites like
          ESA and other anti-eck groups might be bothering him???
          Are the anti-eckankar discussions having an impact on the
          growth of eckankar?? I can only hope so! : )

          BTW, Zoey, since you are so interested in the past
          events in eckankar, I was wondering if what is currently
          taking place concerns/interests you. For instance, what
          do you think about the Wisdom Notes topic? Also, I really
          would like to know more about your eck experience when
          you have the chance. I had asked you in my previous post:

          "you might have already posted about your eck experience on here
          or another site, but would you mind refreshing us? How many years
          you were a member and your level of participation? How long you
          have been out and why you dropped out? Just curious. Thanks!"

          Anyway, I hope we can start some good discussions about the
          impact that the Internet is having on eckankar and its
          leadership, namely, Klemp as he continues to hold on to the power!
          LOL!

          Mish


          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
          "mishmisha9" <mishmisha9@...> wrote:
          >
          > Prometheus posted:
          > Klemp Tries to Keep ECKists Off the Internet
          > by Using Fear Tactics of Harmful "BEAMS."
          >
          > The Wisdom Notes- June 2007:
          > Klemp wrote:
          > "… the Internet, with its e-mail,
          > instant messaging, games, RESEARCH
          > GOLD MINES, study courses, and so
          > much more.
          >
          > Many get lost and then swallowed up
          > in this virtual universe. In doing so,
          > they lose sight of the ECK.
          >
          > The Internet, therefore, can be a golden
          > window that opens one to unlimited possibilities
          > of information and entertainment.
          >
          > Yet it can reveal a dark side too.
          >
          > Once cautions were aired about radio, comic
          > books, and TV." . . .
          >
          > ##Prometheus, thanks for sharing Klemp's latest
          > Wisdom Notes! I have to say that this ranks up
          > there with Klemp's book "Those Wonderful ECK
          > Masters" in his attempt to suppress truth and
          > manipulate his chelas. Rather disgusting while
          > so laughable how Klemp tries to maintain control
          > of his power seat. For him and eckankar, the Internet
          > is a definite threat as more and more chelas search
          > for the truth, and find it on various discussion sites
          > that eckankar is based on lies and deceptions, and
          > Klemp is nothing but a fake master who feasts off
          > the gullible.
          >
          > Logically, when Klemp mentions in his Wisdom Notes
          > how once society cautioned about radio, comic books
          > and TV it would seem his cautions about the Internet
          > should fall on deaf ears. After all, we still listen to the
          > radio, read comic books and watch TV. Those things were
          > not passing fancies, and so too, the Internet is here to stay.
          > I don't think civilization has sunk into a dark abyss because
          > of these modern electronics. On the contrary, it seems
          > life has been enhanced and improved for the most part.
          > Now we can have an abundance of friends from all over the
          > world that we can easily communicate with on a regular
          > basis. We can learn lots of information about various
          > subjects of interest and concern. We can stay current with
          > the news, etc.
          >
          > So, really, what is Klemp's beef about the Internet? I
          > imagine that he is losing more membership in his org and
          > that he feels challenged on a daily basis to keep his
          > lies and deceptions afloat. Yes, eckankar is one of those
          > orgs that is nothing more than a sinking ship. Klemp as captain
          > is not ready to go down, so he is constantly attempting
          > to plug up the leaks on his ill fated ship. Funny to watch!
          >
          > Seems that the Internet and all those foxes guarding the eck
          > hen house are big problems for Klemp! They go hand in hand,
          > don't they! : )
          >
          > Mish
          >
          >
          > ***************************************************************
          > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
          > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
          >
          > Klemp Tries to Keep ECKists Off the Internet
          > by Using Fear Tactics of Harmful "BEAMS."
          >
          > The Wisdom Notes- June 2007:
          >
          > HK: "… the Internet, with its e-mail,
          > instant messaging, games, RESEARCH
          > GOLD MINES, study courses, and so
          > much more.
          >
          > Many get lost and then swallowed up
          > in this virtual universe. In doing so,
          > they lose sight of the ECK."
          >
          > [ME] But don't Eckists have their Inner
          > Mahanta to Guide them and Protect them,
          > or is this just more of HK's lip service?
          >
          > HK: "The Internet, therefore, can be a golden
          > window that opens one to unlimited possibilities
          > of information and entertainment.
          >
          > Yet it can reveal a dark side too."
          >
          > [ME] Yes, the dark side of anything can show
          > itself and be a negative factor, especially, for
          > unsupervised children. However, adults are more
          > mature and have freedom of choice. Besides, isn't
          > this a KAL controlled world of tests and challenges
          > and why Soul is here for spiritual growth?
          >
          > HK: "Once cautions were aired about radio, comic
          > books, and TV."
          >
          > [ME] Exactly, so what's your point Mr. Klemp?
          > Klemp seems to be talking out of both sides of his
          > mouth on this issue and wants it both ways.
          > However, this is more of a ploy to confuse Eckists
          > while creating more fears like with the EMR fear
          > that he has already established. One has to wonder
          > what good is the Mahanta if he can't protect Eckists
          > from the KAL who only "rules" the Lower Worlds.
          > What happened to the Higher Consciousness of the
          > Higher Initiations? Klemp repeats this message
          > of fear in the H.I. Letter!
          >
          > HK: "And still our world spins lazily on.
          > Unfortunately, some people rely on electronic
          > toys to get themselves booted up. They're
          > addicts, though, they refuse to face reality.
          > Glued to their chairs, they sit and eat, growing
          > Obese."
          >
          > [ME] It seems Klemp is definitely talking about
          > Cheryl Grumpyman! Maybe he's including his ex-wife,
          > some ESC staffers and a few RESAs (among others)
          > too!
          >
          > HK: "This is a worst-case scenario that appears
          > all too often. They prefer to communicate with
          > others online instead of face-to-face."
          >
          > [ME] Now that's a really stupid and narrow-minded
          > statement! Klemp is an Idiot! People can't travel those
          > distances in the physical world of limitation of time
          > and space. And it's more convenient, cheaper, and
          > "Green" to communicate via computer. I guess that if
          > one follows Klemp's distorted logic we shouldn't use
          > the telephone either! After all, using the phone is not
          > "face-to-face" and it is an electronic device that is held
          > very close to the brain and emits EMR! Be afraid… very
          > afraid!
          >
          > HK: "A danger inherent in any outside attraction is
          > that a chela finds little time for the Spiritual Exercises
          > of ECK. So what is missing? Quietude."
          >
          > [ME] So, if this is a problem or a negative with
          > "ANY outside attraction" why pick on just the "Internet"
          > with all of the positive benefits it has?! Besides, this
          > technology is, also, a means of uniting more people
          > than the Mahanta will ever be able to do! Why are there
          > people at the ESC (and locally) assigned to Internet
          > media? See, it's to scare the gullible and fearful from
          > discovering sites like this.
          >
          > HK seems to be inept as an all powerful Mahanta
          > to influence and control chelas on the Inner Planes
          > let alone on the outer. Therefore, he resorts to KAListic
          > methods by using the written word (print media,
          > Internet), art work, tapes, CD's, DVD's, and the
          > telephone/fax to get his outer (Lower Plane) message
          > out. Like other religious fundamentalist leaders Klemp
          > would love to have civil laws and government control
          > implemented to control his flock of hens (roosters too)
          > in that Eck Henhouse.
          >
          > HK: "There must be an oasis of tranquility, of peace
          > and quiet, for there to be time for spiritual exercises,
          > just plain reading, or even daydreaming. Reading, for
          > example, has the power to open children, youth, and
          > adults new horizons, without the constant bombardment
          > of INVISIBLE ELECTRONIC BEAMS that hammer the body."
          >
          > [ME] Actually, one can do the S.E. before or after
          > TV, i-Pod, radio, telephone, computer, golf, tennis,
          > ocean surfing, snow boarding, intros, shopping, etc.
          > But, isn't daydreaming kind of Astral?! And, isn't Fear
          > mongering, for whatever reason, a KAL technique since
          > Eckists have the Mahanta to "protect" them while non-
          > Eckists don't! It doesn't take a "chela" to use the off-
          > switch once in awhile! LOL!
          >
          > HK: "This Hammering Weakens the Body's Defenses.
          > Over the course of many years, an individual will
          > Succumb to Any Number of Illnesses, ALL apparently
          > without cause."
          >
          > [ME] Klemp is saying that those chelas at the ESC
          > who work at their computers 8 hours a day, 5 days
          > a week are also having their bodies hammered and
          > weakened by these "Invisible Electronic Beams"
          > and "will succumb to any number of illnesses" and
          > "all apparently without cause." It would seem that
          > these ill chelas have a cause for legal action and
          > compensation against Klemp and the Eckankar
          > Church for Not protecting them from these harmful
          > "beams." And, since the Mahanta is the highest
          > consciousness on the planet his word on this subject
          > must be heavily weighed by the courts if there is a
          > Workers Compensation Claim filed with the state,
          > or other lawsuit claiming supervised neglect of a
          > "known" hazard.
          >
          > HK: "A quiet time for reading will prove beneficial
          > to one. He can sit at his own rate of reading, stopping
          > now and again to let a point settle in. Again, an exciting
          > story may cause him to race on, to see what will happen
          > next. Reading also allows for daydreaming."
          >
          > [ME] Actually, people can quietly "read" on the Internet
          > and at any "rate" or speed! I can even stop and ponder a
          > point and daydream if I want!!! And, I can read things
          > that are current to the Now and are, therefore, not yet
          > (or will ever be) in book form!
          >
          > What kind of "Modern" Prophet is Klemp? This
          > self-created title seems like another oxymoron…
          > like military intelligence! In truth, Klemp is like
          > most religious leaders and wants to control his
          > members by any means possible when using fear,
          > guilt, and shame… and that carrot! Only with
          > Eckankar the "carrot" (i.e. Initiation, Higher
          > Consciousness, Spiritual Freedom, Self-Mastery)
          > is supposed to be caught and eaten in this lifetime
          > instead of the next!
          >
          > HK: "And all without the Brutal Hammering of
          > Electronic Meteors that shower down upon the
          > Naked, unprotected planet of his Physical being."
          >
          > [ME] I'll bet HK loved using "naked." What a
          > visualization! However, does this mean that my
          > i-Pod and cell phone, telephone, TV, radio, car
          > electronics, vacuum cleaner, clock radio, etc.
          > are "bad" too, or is it just our computers and the
          > Internet?! Why can't the Mahanta protect, at least,
          > the Higher Initiates?! This is also bad news for
          > those Internet Eck Book Discussions and sites
          > like HU-Chat and Chela-Chat, etc. Then again,
          > most Eckists won't follow HK's nutty advice
          > anyway! <smile>
          >
          > HK: "People may get lost in a virtual book world
          > too."
          >
          > [ME] People also "get lost" trying to find substance
          > from Klemps talks. These spoken words are even
          > more "virtual" than computer images. Klemp has
          > to convert his words to print ($$$) years after they
          > were spoken, or rely on unofficial note taking and
          > tapes being released (for sale) at the next seminar.
          > But, for someone who constantly dwells in the past
          > this is no big deal for Klemp.
          >
          > HK: "Their interests may lie in stories of the past,
          > knowing that history—fact or fiction—matters,
          > for it can teach them about themselves. A well-done
          > history will study characters in depth, BUT with the
          > advantage of objectivity at arm's length. In that way,
          > readers can get beyond the haze that surrounds their
          > own circumstances. So reading is important."
          >
          > [ME] Actually, Klemp is saying that Only reading
          > Books, or print material, is important because the
          > "Electronic Meteors" of EMR from a computer
          > will produce a fog or "haze" in one's mind and
          > this will prevent chelas learning about "themselves."
          >
          > Yet, HK has also stated that all thoughts, words,
          > and books are of the Lower Planes of the mind.
          >
          > How does this really affect the Eck chela if the
          > PR about the Inner/Outer Mahanta is true?! See,
          > Klemp is proving that all of the crap that Eckists
          > are told is true or imagine to be true is Not!
          >
          > HK: "However, so is writing, with pen and paper
          > instead of on a computer."
          >
          > [ME] Klemp is a joke as a Modern Prophet and
          > as spiritual leader. He's not only stuck in the past,
          > but he fears the Truth that Eckists might discover
          > on the Internet. Remember when word processors
          > came out and what an improvement that was for
          > writers! No more white-out! And computers are
          > even better because writers have spell check and
          > can save huge amounts of material and do their
          > own publications. One doesn't have to be online,
          > but according to Klemp being off-line is bad too!
          > He's such an "expert" Liar isn't he!
          >
          > Anyway, there was more to HK's wordy article
          > intended on scaring Eckists away from the Internet,
          > [and sites telling the Truth about Eckankar], but
          > it was redundant and irrelevant so I deleted it.
          >
          > Hey HK… Have A Nice Day! I have Just one question,
          > When you write do you really use an ink pen or a quill?!
          >
          > Prometheus
          > >
          >
        • zoey_true
          hey, mish. i m fairly interested in eck events from the past, and in the present. i think it would be quite interesting to know harold s family dynamics. i
          Message 4 of 12 , Jun 25, 2007
            hey, mish. i'm fairly interested in eck events from the past, and in
            the present. i think it would be quite interesting to know harold's
            family dynamics.

            i didn't comment on the wisdom notes because i don't really have a
            comment. i'm not sure what underlying message hk is trying to convey
            with that computer stuff. he could be hoping that eckists will
            remain in the dark if they keep away from the internet. or he could
            be saying that he understands things on a level the rest of us
            don't. like, he knows about harmful beams, and the rest of us are
            clueless.

            i was only in eckankar 5 years, mish. i was never a higher
            initiate. but i was as insider as one can be, i suppose, without
            being a higher initiate. one of my best friends was the RESA, and i
            dated two hi's. i was one of the club. - i only relate these
            things to say that i was quite immersed in the whole thing.

            later, zoey...





            -- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
            <mishmisha9@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi, All!
            >
            > Since Prometheus' post on The Wisdom Notes June 2007
            > got side-tracked with the other discussion that Zoey
            > brought to the forefront regarding Klemp's poor
            > family relationships and his hiding his past, I thought
            > I'd bring this more current topic back to the front page
            > for more discussion. It seems to me that what Klemp is saying
            > and writing now is of the upmost importance. I also find
            > it really interesting how Klemp wants to stop chelas,
            > especially the lower initiates from spending what he
            > considers too much time exploring the Internet! I have to
            > ask why he is bothered by this now??? What is going on
            > in his world, that of eckankar, that he is compelled to
            > put these alarms and concerns out there? Of course,
            > from my perspective, it would seem that sites like
            > ESA and other anti-eck groups might be bothering him???
            > Are the anti-eckankar discussions having an impact on the
            > growth of eckankar?? I can only hope so! : )
            >
            > BTW, Zoey, since you are so interested in the past
            > events in eckankar, I was wondering if what is currently
            > taking place concerns/interests you. For instance, what
            > do you think about the Wisdom Notes topic? Also, I really
            > would like to know more about your eck experience when
            > you have the chance. I had asked you in my previous post:
            >
            > "you might have already posted about your eck experience on here
            > or another site, but would you mind refreshing us? How many years
            > you were a member and your level of participation? How long you
            > have been out and why you dropped out? Just curious. Thanks!"
            >
            > Anyway, I hope we can start some good discussions about the
            > impact that the Internet is having on eckankar and its
            > leadership, namely, Klemp as he continues to hold on to the power!
            > LOL!
            >
            > Mish
            >
            >
            > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
            > "mishmisha9" <mishmisha9@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Prometheus posted:
            > > Klemp Tries to Keep ECKists Off the Internet
            > > by Using Fear Tactics of Harmful "BEAMS."
            > >
            > > The Wisdom Notes- June 2007:
            > > Klemp wrote:
            > > "… the Internet, with its e-mail,
            > > instant messaging, games, RESEARCH
            > > GOLD MINES, study courses, and so
            > > much more.
            > >
            > > Many get lost and then swallowed up
            > > in this virtual universe. In doing so,
            > > they lose sight of the ECK.
            > >
            > > The Internet, therefore, can be a golden
            > > window that opens one to unlimited possibilities
            > > of information and entertainment.
            > >
            > > Yet it can reveal a dark side too.
            > >
            > > Once cautions were aired about radio, comic
            > > books, and TV." . . .
            > >
            > > ##Prometheus, thanks for sharing Klemp's latest
            > > Wisdom Notes! I have to say that this ranks up
            > > there with Klemp's book "Those Wonderful ECK
            > > Masters" in his attempt to suppress truth and
            > > manipulate his chelas. Rather disgusting while
            > > so laughable how Klemp tries to maintain control
            > > of his power seat. For him and eckankar, the Internet
            > > is a definite threat as more and more chelas search
            > > for the truth, and find it on various discussion sites
            > > that eckankar is based on lies and deceptions, and
            > > Klemp is nothing but a fake master who feasts off
            > > the gullible.
            > >
            > > Logically, when Klemp mentions in his Wisdom Notes
            > > how once society cautioned about radio, comic books
            > > and TV it would seem his cautions about the Internet
            > > should fall on deaf ears. After all, we still listen to the
            > > radio, read comic books and watch TV. Those things were
            > > not passing fancies, and so too, the Internet is here to stay.
            > > I don't think civilization has sunk into a dark abyss because
            > > of these modern electronics. On the contrary, it seems
            > > life has been enhanced and improved for the most part.
            > > Now we can have an abundance of friends from all over the
            > > world that we can easily communicate with on a regular
            > > basis. We can learn lots of information about various
            > > subjects of interest and concern. We can stay current with
            > > the news, etc.
            > >
            > > So, really, what is Klemp's beef about the Internet? I
            > > imagine that he is losing more membership in his org and
            > > that he feels challenged on a daily basis to keep his
            > > lies and deceptions afloat. Yes, eckankar is one of those
            > > orgs that is nothing more than a sinking ship. Klemp as captain
            > > is not ready to go down, so he is constantly attempting
            > > to plug up the leaks on his ill fated ship. Funny to watch!
            > >
            > > Seems that the Internet and all those foxes guarding the eck
            > > hen house are big problems for Klemp! They go hand in hand,
            > > don't they! : )
            > >
            > > Mish
            > >
            > >
            > > ***************************************************************
            > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
            > > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Klemp Tries to Keep ECKists Off the Internet
            > > by Using Fear Tactics of Harmful "BEAMS."
            > >
            > > The Wisdom Notes- June 2007:
            > >
            > > HK: "… the Internet, with its e-mail,
            > > instant messaging, games, RESEARCH
            > > GOLD MINES, study courses, and so
            > > much more.
            > >
            > > Many get lost and then swallowed up
            > > in this virtual universe. In doing so,
            > > they lose sight of the ECK."
            > >
            > > [ME] But don't Eckists have their Inner
            > > Mahanta to Guide them and Protect them,
            > > or is this just more of HK's lip service?
            > >
            > > HK: "The Internet, therefore, can be a golden
            > > window that opens one to unlimited possibilities
            > > of information and entertainment.
            > >
            > > Yet it can reveal a dark side too."
            > >
            > > [ME] Yes, the dark side of anything can show
            > > itself and be a negative factor, especially, for
            > > unsupervised children. However, adults are more
            > > mature and have freedom of choice. Besides, isn't
            > > this a KAL controlled world of tests and challenges
            > > and why Soul is here for spiritual growth?
            > >
            > > HK: "Once cautions were aired about radio, comic
            > > books, and TV."
            > >
            > > [ME] Exactly, so what's your point Mr. Klemp?
            > > Klemp seems to be talking out of both sides of his
            > > mouth on this issue and wants it both ways.
            > > However, this is more of a ploy to confuse Eckists
            > > while creating more fears like with the EMR fear
            > > that he has already established. One has to wonder
            > > what good is the Mahanta if he can't protect Eckists
            > > from the KAL who only "rules" the Lower Worlds.
            > > What happened to the Higher Consciousness of the
            > > Higher Initiations? Klemp repeats this message
            > > of fear in the H.I. Letter!
            > >
            > > HK: "And still our world spins lazily on.
            > > Unfortunately, some people rely on electronic
            > > toys to get themselves booted up. They're
            > > addicts, though, they refuse to face reality.
            > > Glued to their chairs, they sit and eat, growing
            > > Obese."
            > >
            > > [ME] It seems Klemp is definitely talking about
            > > Cheryl Grumpyman! Maybe he's including his ex-wife,
            > > some ESC staffers and a few RESAs (among others)
            > > too!
            > >
            > > HK: "This is a worst-case scenario that appears
            > > all too often. They prefer to communicate with
            > > others online instead of face-to-face."
            > >
            > > [ME] Now that's a really stupid and narrow-minded
            > > statement! Klemp is an Idiot! People can't travel those
            > > distances in the physical world of limitation of time
            > > and space. And it's more convenient, cheaper, and
            > > "Green" to communicate via computer. I guess that if
            > > one follows Klemp's distorted logic we shouldn't use
            > > the telephone either! After all, using the phone is not
            > > "face-to-face" and it is an electronic device that is held
            > > very close to the brain and emits EMR! Be afraid… very
            > > afraid!
            > >
            > > HK: "A danger inherent in any outside attraction is
            > > that a chela finds little time for the Spiritual Exercises
            > > of ECK. So what is missing? Quietude."
            > >
            > > [ME] So, if this is a problem or a negative with
            > > "ANY outside attraction" why pick on just the "Internet"
            > > with all of the positive benefits it has?! Besides, this
            > > technology is, also, a means of uniting more people
            > > than the Mahanta will ever be able to do! Why are there
            > > people at the ESC (and locally) assigned to Internet
            > > media? See, it's to scare the gullible and fearful from
            > > discovering sites like this.
            > >
            > > HK seems to be inept as an all powerful Mahanta
            > > to influence and control chelas on the Inner Planes
            > > let alone on the outer. Therefore, he resorts to KAListic
            > > methods by using the written word (print media,
            > > Internet), art work, tapes, CD's, DVD's, and the
            > > telephone/fax to get his outer (Lower Plane) message
            > > out. Like other religious fundamentalist leaders Klemp
            > > would love to have civil laws and government control
            > > implemented to control his flock of hens (roosters too)
            > > in that Eck Henhouse.
            > >
            > > HK: "There must be an oasis of tranquility, of peace
            > > and quiet, for there to be time for spiritual exercises,
            > > just plain reading, or even daydreaming. Reading, for
            > > example, has the power to open children, youth, and
            > > adults new horizons, without the constant bombardment
            > > of INVISIBLE ELECTRONIC BEAMS that hammer the body."
            > >
            > > [ME] Actually, one can do the S.E. before or after
            > > TV, i-Pod, radio, telephone, computer, golf, tennis,
            > > ocean surfing, snow boarding, intros, shopping, etc.
            > > But, isn't daydreaming kind of Astral?! And, isn't Fear
            > > mongering, for whatever reason, a KAL technique since
            > > Eckists have the Mahanta to "protect" them while non-
            > > Eckists don't! It doesn't take a "chela" to use the off-
            > > switch once in awhile! LOL!
            > >
            > > HK: "This Hammering Weakens the Body's Defenses.
            > > Over the course of many years, an individual will
            > > Succumb to Any Number of Illnesses, ALL apparently
            > > without cause."
            > >
            > > [ME] Klemp is saying that those chelas at the ESC
            > > who work at their computers 8 hours a day, 5 days
            > > a week are also having their bodies hammered and
            > > weakened by these "Invisible Electronic Beams"
            > > and "will succumb to any number of illnesses" and
            > > "all apparently without cause." It would seem that
            > > these ill chelas have a cause for legal action and
            > > compensation against Klemp and the Eckankar
            > > Church for Not protecting them from these harmful
            > > "beams." And, since the Mahanta is the highest
            > > consciousness on the planet his word on this subject
            > > must be heavily weighed by the courts if there is a
            > > Workers Compensation Claim filed with the state,
            > > or other lawsuit claiming supervised neglect of a
            > > "known" hazard.
            > >
            > > HK: "A quiet time for reading will prove beneficial
            > > to one. He can sit at his own rate of reading, stopping
            > > now and again to let a point settle in. Again, an exciting
            > > story may cause him to race on, to see what will happen
            > > next. Reading also allows for daydreaming."
            > >
            > > [ME] Actually, people can quietly "read" on the Internet
            > > and at any "rate" or speed! I can even stop and ponder a
            > > point and daydream if I want!!! And, I can read things
            > > that are current to the Now and are, therefore, not yet
            > > (or will ever be) in book form!
            > >
            > > What kind of "Modern" Prophet is Klemp? This
            > > self-created title seems like another oxymoron…
            > > like military intelligence! In truth, Klemp is like
            > > most religious leaders and wants to control his
            > > members by any means possible when using fear,
            > > guilt, and shame… and that carrot! Only with
            > > Eckankar the "carrot" (i.e. Initiation, Higher
            > > Consciousness, Spiritual Freedom, Self-Mastery)
            > > is supposed to be caught and eaten in this lifetime
            > > instead of the next!
            > >
            > > HK: "And all without the Brutal Hammering of
            > > Electronic Meteors that shower down upon the
            > > Naked, unprotected planet of his Physical being."
            > >
            > > [ME] I'll bet HK loved using "naked." What a
            > > visualization! However, does this mean that my
            > > i-Pod and cell phone, telephone, TV, radio, car
            > > electronics, vacuum cleaner, clock radio, etc.
            > > are "bad" too, or is it just our computers and the
            > > Internet?! Why can't the Mahanta protect, at least,
            > > the Higher Initiates?! This is also bad news for
            > > those Internet Eck Book Discussions and sites
            > > like HU-Chat and Chela-Chat, etc. Then again,
            > > most Eckists won't follow HK's nutty advice
            > > anyway! <smile>
            > >
            > > HK: "People may get lost in a virtual book world
            > > too."
            > >
            > > [ME] People also "get lost" trying to find substance
            > > from Klemps talks. These spoken words are even
            > > more "virtual" than computer images. Klemp has
            > > to convert his words to print ($$$) years after they
            > > were spoken, or rely on unofficial note taking and
            > > tapes being released (for sale) at the next seminar.
            > > But, for someone who constantly dwells in the past
            > > this is no big deal for Klemp.
            > >
            > > HK: "Their interests may lie in stories of the past,
            > > knowing that history—fact or fiction—matters,
            > > for it can teach them about themselves. A well-done
            > > history will study characters in depth, BUT with the
            > > advantage of objectivity at arm's length. In that way,
            > > readers can get beyond the haze that surrounds their
            > > own circumstances. So reading is important."
            > >
            > > [ME] Actually, Klemp is saying that Only reading
            > > Books, or print material, is important because the
            > > "Electronic Meteors" of EMR from a computer
            > > will produce a fog or "haze" in one's mind and
            > > this will prevent chelas learning about "themselves."
            > >
            > > Yet, HK has also stated that all thoughts, words,
            > > and books are of the Lower Planes of the mind.
            > >
            > > How does this really affect the Eck chela if the
            > > PR about the Inner/Outer Mahanta is true?! See,
            > > Klemp is proving that all of the crap that Eckists
            > > are told is true or imagine to be true is Not!
            > >
            > > HK: "However, so is writing, with pen and paper
            > > instead of on a computer."
            > >
            > > [ME] Klemp is a joke as a Modern Prophet and
            > > as spiritual leader. He's not only stuck in the past,
            > > but he fears the Truth that Eckists might discover
            > > on the Internet. Remember when word processors
            > > came out and what an improvement that was for
            > > writers! No more white-out! And computers are
            > > even better because writers have spell check and
            > > can save huge amounts of material and do their
            > > own publications. One doesn't have to be online,
            > > but according to Klemp being off-line is bad too!
            > > He's such an "expert" Liar isn't he!
            > >
            > > Anyway, there was more to HK's wordy article
            > > intended on scaring Eckists away from the Internet,
            > > [and sites telling the Truth about Eckankar], but
            > > it was redundant and irrelevant so I deleted it.
            > >
            > > Hey HK… Have A Nice Day! I have Just one question,
            > > When you write do you really use an ink pen or a quill?!
            > >
            > > Prometheus
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • ewickings
            So basically, I would think you would already have all the info you ask for, if you were that special and ran with the pack. Wow, dated 2 HIs.... They
            Message 5 of 12 , Jun 25, 2007
              So basically, I would think you would already have all the info you ask for, if you were that "special" and ran with the pack.  Wow, dated 2 HIs....   They must have ran out of fresh meat to get involved with a lower!    LOL  Usually most HIs would bother with a lower, let alone the RESAs....  Has something to do with having more awareness and direct contact with the Elite.   
               
              So did those HIs have super special techniques?  Since they are in the running to hold the rod....  Ah well maybe I'll not say what I'm really thinking!   Oh hell why not!   Getting some from an HI, did that make you more aware, or were you in it for your own agenda?   I knew a few lowers that thought hanging with the uppers would make them look important, it was an ego thing mostly.   ;-)
               
               
               
              -------Original Message-------
               
              From: zoey_true
              Date: 6/25/2007 4:49:11 PM
              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: ECKANKAR: The Wisdom Notes, June 2007
               
              hey, mish.  i'm fairly interested in eck events from the past, and in
              the present.  i think it would be quite interesting to know harold's
              family dynamics.
               
              i didn't comment on the wisdom notes because i don't really have a
              comment.  i'm not sure what underlying message hk is trying to convey
              with that computer stuff.  he could be hoping that eckists will
              remain in the dark if they keep away from the internet.  or he could
              be saying that he understands things on a level the rest of us
              don't.  like, he knows about harmful beams, and the rest of us are
              clueless.
               
              i was only in eckankar 5 years, mish.  i was never a higher
              initiate.  but i was as insider as one can be, i suppose, without
              being a higher initiate.  one of my best friends was the RESA, and i
              dated two hi's.  i was one of the club.   - i only relate these
              things to say that i was quite immersed in the whole thing.
               
              later, zoey...
               
               
               
               
               
              <mishmisha9@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi, All!
              >
              > Since Prometheus' post on The Wisdom Notes June 2007
              > got side-tracked with the other discussion that Zoey
              > brought to the forefront regarding Klemp's poor
              > family relationships and his hiding his past, I thought
              > I'd bring this more current topic back to the front page
              > for more discussion. It seems to me that what Klemp is saying
              > and writing now is of the upmost importance. I also find
              > it really interesting how Klemp wants to stop chelas,
              > especially the lower initiates from spending what he
              > considers too much time exploring the Internet! I have to
              > ask why he is bothered by this now??? What is going on
              > in his world, that of eckankar, that he is compelled to
              > put these alarms and concerns out there? Of course,
              > from my perspective, it would seem that sites like
              > ESA and other anti-eck groups might be bothering him???
              > Are the anti-eckankar discussions having an impact on the
              > growth of eckankar?? I can only hope so! : )
              >
              > BTW, Zoey, since you are so interested in the past
              > events in eckankar, I was wondering if what is currently
              > taking place concerns/interests you. For instance, what
              > do you think about the Wisdom Notes topic? Also, I really
              > would like to know more about your eck experience when
              > you have the chance. I had asked you in my previous post:
              >
              > "you might have already posted about your eck experience on here
              > or another site, but would you mind refreshing us? How many years
              > you were a member and your level of participation? How long you
              > have been out and why you dropped out? Just curious. Thanks!"
              >
              > Anyway, I hope we can start some good discussions about the
              > impact that the Internet is having on eckankar and its
              > leadership, namely, Klemp as he continues to hold on to the power!
              > LOL!
              >
              > Mish
              >
              >
              > "mishmisha9" <mishmisha9@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Prometheus posted:
              > > Klemp Tries to Keep ECKists Off the Internet
              > > by Using Fear Tactics of Harmful "BEAMS."
              > >
              > > The Wisdom Notes- June 2007:
              > > Klemp wrote:
              > >  "… the Internet, with its e-mail,
              > > instant messaging, games, RESEARCH
              > > GOLD MINES, study courses, and so
              > > much more.
              > >
              > > Many get lost and then swallowed up
              > > in this virtual universe. In doing so,
              > > they lose sight of the ECK.
              > >
              > >  The Internet, therefore, can be a golden
              > > window that opens one to unlimited possibilities
              > > of information and entertainment.
              > >
              > > Yet it can reveal a dark side too.
              > >
              > >  Once cautions were aired about radio, comic
              > > books, and TV." . . .
              > >
              > > ##Prometheus, thanks for sharing Klemp's latest
              > > Wisdom Notes! I have to say that this ranks up
              > > there with Klemp's book "Those Wonderful ECK
              > > Masters" in his attempt to suppress truth and
              > > manipulate his chelas. Rather disgusting while
              > > so laughable how Klemp tries to maintain control
              > > of his power seat. For him and eckankar, the Internet
              > > is a definite threat as more and more chelas search
              > > for the truth, and find it on various discussion sites
              > > that eckankar is based on lies and deceptions, and
              > > Klemp is nothing but a fake master who feasts off
              > > the gullible.
              > >
              > > Logically, when Klemp mentions in his Wisdom Notes
              > > how once society cautioned about radio, comic books
              > > and TV it would seem his cautions about the Internet
              > > should fall on deaf ears. After all, we still listen to the
              > > radio, read comic books and watch TV. Those things were
              > > not passing fancies, and so too, the Internet is here to stay.
              > > I don't think civilization has sunk into a dark abyss because
              > > of these modern electronics. On the contrary, it seems
              > > life has been enhanced and improved for the most part.
              > > Now we can have an abundance of friends from all over the
              > > world that we can easily communicate with on a regular
              > > basis. We can learn lots of information about various
              > > subjects of interest and concern. We can stay current with
              > > the news, etc.
              > >
              > > So, really, what is Klemp's beef about the Internet? I
              > > imagine that he is losing more membership in his org and
              > > that he feels challenged on a daily basis to keep his
              > > lies and deceptions afloat. Yes, eckankar is one of those
              > > orgs that is nothing more than  a sinking ship. Klemp as captain
              > > is not ready to go down, so he is constantly attempting
              > > to plug up the leaks on his ill fated ship. Funny to watch!
              > >
              > > Seems that the Internet and all those foxes guarding the eck
              > > hen house are big problems for Klemp! They go hand in hand,
              > > don't they!  : )
              > >
              > > Mish
              > >
              > >
              > > ***************************************************************
              > > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
              > >
              > >  Klemp Tries to Keep ECKists Off the Internet
              > >  by Using Fear Tactics of Harmful "BEAMS."
              > >
              > >  The Wisdom Notes- June 2007:
              > >
              > >  HK: "… the Internet, with its e-mail,
              > >  instant messaging, games, RESEARCH
              > > GOLD MINES, study courses, and so
              > >  much more.
              > >
              > > Many get lost and then swallowed up
              > >  in this virtual universe. In doing so,
              > > they lose sight of the ECK."
              > >
              > >  [ME] But don't Eckists have their Inner
              > >  Mahanta to Guide them and Protect them,
              > >  or is this just more of HK's lip service?
              > >
              > >  HK: "The Internet, therefore, can be a golden
              > > window that opens one to unlimited possibilities
              > >  of information and entertainment.
              > >
              > >  Yet it can reveal a dark side too."
              > >
              > > [ME] Yes, the dark side of anything can show
              > > itself and be a negative factor, especially, for
              > >  unsupervised children. However, adults are more
              > >  mature and have freedom of choice. Besides, isn't
              > >  this a KAL controlled world of tests and challenges
              > > and why Soul is here for spiritual growth?
              > >
              > >  HK: "Once cautions were aired about radio, comic
              > >  books, and TV."
              > >
              > > [ME] Exactly, so what's your point Mr. Klemp?
              > > Klemp seems to be talking out of both sides of his
              > >  mouth on this issue and wants it both ways.
              > >  However, this is more of a ploy to confuse Eckists
              > > while creating more fears like with the EMR fear
              > >  that he has already established. One has to wonder
              > >  what good is the Mahanta if he can't protect Eckists
              > > from the KAL who only "rules" the Lower Worlds.
              > >  What happened to the Higher Consciousness of the
              > >  Higher Initiations? Klemp repeats this message
              > >  of fear in the H.I. Letter!
              > >
              > > HK: "And still our world spins lazily on.
              > > Unfortunately, some people rely on electronic
              > >  toys to get themselves booted up. They're
              > >  addicts, though, they refuse to face reality.
              > >  Glued to their chairs, they sit and eat, growing
              > > Obese."
              > >
              > > [ME] It seems Klemp is definitely talking about
              > > Cheryl Grumpyman! Maybe he's including his ex-wife,
              > > some ESC staffers and a few RESAs (among others)
              > > too!
              > >
              > > HK: "This is a worst-case scenario that appears
              > >  all too often. They prefer to communicate with
              > > others online instead of face-to-face."
              > >
              > > [ME] Now that's a really stupid and narrow-minded
              > > statement! Klemp is an Idiot! People can't travel those
              > >  distances in the physical world of limitation of time
              > > and space. And it's more convenient, cheaper, and
              > >  "Green" to communicate via computer. I guess that if
              > >  one follows Klemp's distorted logic we shouldn't use
              > > the telephone either! After all, using the phone is not
              > >  "face-to-face" and it is an electronic device that is held
              > > very close to the brain and emits EMR! Be afraid… very
              > >  afraid!
              > >
              > >  HK: "A danger inherent in any outside attraction is
              > > that a chela finds little time for the Spiritual Exercises
              > >  of ECK. So what is missing? Quietude."
              > >
              > > [ME] So, if this is a problem or a negative with
              > > "ANY outside attraction" why pick on just the "Internet"
              > >  with all of the positive benefits it has?! Besides, this
              > >  technology is, also, a means of uniting more people
              > >  than the Mahanta will ever be able to do! Why are there
              > > people at the ESC (and locally) assigned to Internet
              > >  media? See, it's to scare the gullible and fearful from
              > > discovering sites like this.
              > >
              > > HK seems to be inept as an all powerful Mahanta
              > > to influence and control chelas on the Inner Planes
              > > let alone on the outer. Therefore, he resorts to KAListic
              > >  methods by using the written word (print media,
              > > Internet), art work, tapes, CD's, DVD's, and the
              > > telephone/fax to get his outer (Lower Plane) message
              > > out. Like other religious fundamentalist leaders Klemp
              > > would love to have civil laws and government control
              > > implemented to control his flock of hens (roosters too)
              > > in that Eck Henhouse.
              > >
              > > HK: "There must be an oasis of tranquility, of peace
              > > and quiet, for there to be time for spiritual exercises,
              > > just plain reading, or even daydreaming. Reading, for
              > > example, has the power to open children, youth, and
              > > adults new horizons, without the constant bombardment
              > > of INVISIBLE ELECTRONIC BEAMS that hammer the body."
              > >
              > > [ME] Actually, one can do the S.E. before or after
              > > TV, i-Pod, radio, telephone, computer, golf, tennis,
              > > ocean surfing, snow boarding, intros, shopping, etc.
              > >  But, isn't daydreaming kind of Astral?! And, isn't Fear
              > > mongering, for whatever reason, a KAL technique since
              > >  Eckists have the Mahanta to "protect" them while non-
              > >  Eckists don't! It doesn't take a "chela" to use the off-
              > > switch once in awhile! LOL!
              > >
              > > HK: "This Hammering Weakens the Body's Defenses.
              > > Over the course of many years, an individual will
              > > Succumb to Any Number of Illnesses, ALL apparently
              > >  without cause."
              > >
              > > [ME] Klemp is saying that those chelas at the ESC
              > >  who work at their computers 8 hours a day, 5 days
              > > a week are also having their bodies hammered and
              > > weakened by these "Invisible Electronic Beams"
              > > and "will succumb to any number of illnesses" and
              > > "all apparently without cause." It would seem that
              > > these ill chelas have a cause for legal action and
              > >  compensation against Klemp and the Eckankar
              > > Church for Not protecting them from these harmful
              > >  "beams." And, since the Mahanta is the highest
              > > consciousness on the planet his word on this subject
              > >  must be heavily weighed by the courts if there is a
              > > Workers Compensation Claim filed with the state,
              > > or other lawsuit claiming supervised neglect of a
              > > "known" hazard.
              > >
              > >  HK: "A quiet time for reading will prove beneficial
              > > to one. He can sit at his own rate of reading, stopping
              > > now and again to let a point settle in. Again, an exciting
              > > story may cause him to race on, to see what will happen
              > > next. Reading also allows for daydreaming."
              > >
              > >  [ME] Actually, people can quietly "read" on the Internet
              > > and at any "rate" or speed! I can even stop and ponder a
              > >  point and daydream if I want!!! And, I can read things
              > >  that are current to the Now and are, therefore, not yet
              > > (or will ever be) in book form!
              > >
              > >  What kind of "Modern" Prophet is Klemp? This
              > >  self-created title seems like another oxymoron…
              > >  like military intelligence! In truth, Klemp is like
              > > most religious leaders and wants to control his
              > > members by any means possible when using fear,
              > >  guilt, and shame… and that carrot! Only with
              > >  Eckankar the "carrot" (i.e. Initiation, Higher
              > >  Consciousness, Spiritual Freedom, Self-Mastery)
              > > is supposed to be caught and eaten in this lifetime
              > >  instead of the next!
              > >
              > >  HK: "And all without the Brutal Hammering of
              > >  Electronic Meteors that shower down upon the
              > > Naked, unprotected planet of his Physical being."
              > >
              > > [ME] I'll bet HK loved using "naked." What a
              > > visualization! However, does this mean that my
              > > i-Pod and cell phone, telephone, TV, radio, car
              > > electronics, vacuum cleaner, clock radio, etc.
              > >  are "bad" too, or is it just our computers and the
              > >  Internet?! Why can't the Mahanta protect, at least,
              > >  the Higher Initiates?! This is also bad news for
              > > those Internet Eck Book Discussions and sites
              > > like HU-Chat and Chela-Chat, etc. Then again,
              > > most Eckists won't follow HK's nutty advice
              > > anyway! <smile>
              > >
              > > HK: "People may get lost in a virtual book world
              > > too."
              > >
              > >  [ME] People also "get lost" trying to find substance
              > >  from Klemps talks. These spoken words are even
              > >  more "virtual"  than computer images. Klemp has
              > > to convert his words to print ($$$) years after they
              > >  were spoken, or rely on unofficial note taking and
              > >  tapes being released (for sale) at the next seminar.
              > >  But, for someone who constantly dwells in the past
              > >  this is no big deal for Klemp.
              > >
              > >  HK: "Their interests may lie in stories of the past,
              > >  knowing that history—fact or fiction—matters,
              > > for it can teach them about themselves. A well-done
              > >  history will study characters in depth, BUT with the
              > > advantage of objectivity at arm's length. In that way,
              > > readers can get beyond the haze that surrounds their
              > >  own circumstances. So reading is important."
              > >
              > > [ME] Actually, Klemp is saying that Only reading
              > > Books, or print material, is important because the
              > >  "Electronic Meteors" of EMR from a computer
              > > will produce a fog or "haze" in one's mind and
              > >  this will prevent chelas learning about "themselves."
              > >
              > > Yet, HK has also stated that all thoughts, words,
              > > and books are of the Lower Planes of the mind.
              > >
              > >  How does this really affect the Eck chela if the
              > >  PR about the Inner/Outer Mahanta is true?! See,
              > > Klemp is proving that all of the crap that Eckists
              > > are told is true or imagine to be true is Not!
              > >
              > > HK: "However, so is writing, with pen and paper
              > > instead of on a computer."
              > >
              > >  [ME] Klemp is a joke as a Modern Prophet and
              > > as spiritual leader. He's not only stuck in the past,
              > > but he fears the Truth that Eckists might discover
              > > on the Internet. Remember when word processors
              > > came out and what an improvement that was for
              > > writers! No more white-out! And computers are
              > > even better because writers have spell check and
              > > can save huge amounts of material and do their
              > > own publications. One doesn't have to be online,
              > >  but according to Klemp being off-line is bad too!
              > > He's such an "expert" Liar isn't he!
              > >
              > > Anyway, there was more to HK's wordy article
              > > intended on scaring Eckists away from the Internet,
              > > [and sites telling the Truth about Eckankar], but
              > > it was redundant and irrelevant so I deleted it.
              > >
              > > Hey HK… Have A Nice Day! I have Just one question,
              > >  When you write do you really use an ink pen or a quill?!
              > >
              > > Prometheus
              > > >
              > >
              >
               
               
               
               
               
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            • ewickings
              Ooops, my bad! Should have said, LOL Usually most HIs wouldn t bother with a lower ... From: ewickings Date: 6/25/2007 6:29:52 PM To:
              Message 6 of 12 , Jun 25, 2007
                 
                Ooops, my bad!  Should have said,
                 
                "LOL  Usually most HIs   wouldn't   bother with a lower"
                 
                 
                 
                 
                -------Original Message-------
                 
                From: ewickings
                Date: 6/25/2007 6:29:52 PM
                Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: ECKANKAR: The Wisdom Notes, June 2007
                 
                So basically, I would think you would already have all the info you ask for, if you were that "special" and ran with the pack.  Wow, dated 2 HIs....   They must have ran out of fresh meat to get involved with a lower!    LOL  Usually most HIs would bother with a lower, let alone the RESAs....  Has something to do with having more awareness and direct contact with the Elite.   
                 
                So did those HIs have super special techniques?  Since they are in the running to hold the rod....  Ah well maybe I'll not say what I'm really thinking!   Oh hell why not!   Getting some from an HI, did that make you more aware, or were you in it for your own agenda?   I knew a few lowers that thought hanging with the uppers would make them look important, it was an ego thing mostly.   ;-)
                 
                 
                 
                -------Original Message-------
                 
                From: zoey_true
                Date: 6/25/2007 4:49:11 PM
                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: ECKANKAR: The Wisdom Notes, June 2007
                 
                hey, mish.  i'm fairly interested in eck events from the past, and in
                the present.  i think it would be quite interesting to know harold's
                family dynamics.
                 
                i didn't comment on the wisdom notes because i don't really have a
                comment.  i'm not sure what underlying message hk is trying to convey
                with that computer stuff.  he could be hoping that eckists will
                remain in the dark if they keep away from the internet.  or he could
                be saying that he understands things on a level the rest of us
                don't.  like, he knows about harmful beams, and the rest of us are
                clueless.
                 
                i was only in eckankar 5 years, mish.  i was never a higher
                initiate.  but i was as insider as one can be, i suppose, without
                being a higher initiate.  one of my best friends was the RESA, and i
                dated two hi's.  i was one of the club.   - i only relate these
                things to say that i was quite immersed in the whole thing.
                 
                later, zoey...
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                <mishmisha9@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi, All!
                >
                > Since Prometheus' post on The Wisdom Notes June 2007
                > got side-tracked with the other discussion that Zoey
                > brought to the forefront regarding Klemp's poor
                > family relationships and his hiding his past, I thought
                > I'd bring this more current topic back to the front page
                > for more discussion. It seems to me that what Klemp is saying
                > and writing now is of the upmost importance. I also find
                > it really interesting how Klemp wants to stop chelas,
                > especially the lower initiates from spending what he
                > considers too much time exploring the Internet! I have to
                > ask why he is bothered by this now??? What is going on
                > in his world, that of eckankar, that he is compelled to
                > put these alarms and concerns out there? Of course,
                > from my perspective, it would seem that sites like
                > ESA and other anti-eck groups might be bothering him???
                > Are the anti-eckankar discussions having an impact on the
                > growth of eckankar?? I can only hope so! : )
                >
                > BTW, Zoey, since you are so interested in the past
                > events in eckankar, I was wondering if what is currently
                > taking place concerns/interests you. For instance, what
                > do you think about the Wisdom Notes topic? Also, I really
                > would like to know more about your eck experience when
                > you have the chance. I had asked you in my previous post:
                >
                > "you might have already posted about your eck experience on here
                > or another site, but would you mind refreshing us? How many years
                > you were a member and your level of participation? How long you
                > have been out and why you dropped out? Just curious. Thanks!"
                >
                > Anyway, I hope we can start some good discussions about the
                > impact that the Internet is having on eckankar and its
                > leadership, namely, Klemp as he continues to hold on to the power!
                > LOL!
                >
                > Mish
                >
                >
                > "mishmisha9" <mishmisha9@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Prometheus posted:
                > > Klemp Tries to Keep ECKists Off the Internet
                > > by Using Fear Tactics of Harmful "BEAMS."
                > >
                > > The Wisdom Notes- June 2007:
                > > Klemp wrote:
                > >  "… the Internet, with its e-mail,
                > > instant messaging, games, RESEARCH
                > > GOLD MINES, study courses, and so
                > > much more.
                > >
                > > Many get lost and then swallowed up
                > > in this virtual universe. In doing so,
                > > they lose sight of the ECK.
                > >
                > >  The Internet, therefore, can be a golden
                > > window that opens one to unlimited possibilities
                > > of information and entertainment.
                > >
                > > Yet it can reveal a dark side too.
                > >
                > >  Once cautions were aired about radio, comic
                > > books, and TV." . . .
                > >
                > > ##Prometheus, thanks for sharing Klemp's latest
                > > Wisdom Notes! I have to say that this ranks up
                > > there with Klemp's book "Those Wonderful ECK
                > > Masters" in his attempt to suppress truth and
                > > manipulate his chelas. Rather disgusting while
                > > so laughable how Klemp tries to maintain control
                > > of his power seat. For him and eckankar, the Internet
                > > is a definite threat as more and more chelas search
                > > for the truth, and find it on various discussion sites
                > > that eckankar is based on lies and deceptions, and
                > > Klemp is nothing but a fake master who feasts off
                > > the gullible.
                > >
                > > Logically, when Klemp mentions in his Wisdom Notes
                > > how once society cautioned about radio, comic books
                > > and TV it would seem his cautions about the Internet
                > > should fall on deaf ears. After all, we still listen to the
                > > radio, read comic books and watch TV. Those things were
                > > not passing fancies, and so too, the Internet is here to stay.
                > > I don't think civilization has sunk into a dark abyss because
                > > of these modern electronics. On the contrary, it seems
                > > life has been enhanced and improved for the most part.
                > > Now we can have an abundance of friends from all over the
                > > world that we can easily communicate with on a regular
                > > basis. We can learn lots of information about various
                > > subjects of interest and concern. We can stay current with
                > > the news, etc.
                > >
                > > So, really, what is Klemp's beef about the Internet? I
                > > imagine that he is losing more membership in his org and
                > > that he feels challenged on a daily basis to keep his
                > > lies and deceptions afloat. Yes, eckankar is one of those
                > > orgs that is nothing more than  a sinking ship. Klemp as captain
                > > is not ready to go down, so he is constantly attempting
                > > to plug up the leaks on his ill fated ship. Funny to watch!
                > >
                > > Seems that the Internet and all those foxes guarding the eck
                > > hen house are big problems for Klemp! They go hand in hand,
                > > don't they!  : )
                > >
                > > Mish
                > >
                > >
                > > ***************************************************************
                > > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                > >
                > >  Klemp Tries to Keep ECKists Off the Internet
                > >  by Using Fear Tactics of Harmful "BEAMS."
                > >
                > >  The Wisdom Notes- June 2007:
                > >
                > >  HK: "… the Internet, with its e-mail,
                > >  instant messaging, games, RESEARCH
                > > GOLD MINES, study courses, and so
                > >  much more.
                > >
                > > Many get lost and then swallowed up
                > >  in this virtual universe. In doing so,
                > > they lose sight of the ECK."
                > >
                > >  [ME] But don't Eckists have their Inner
                > >  Mahanta to Guide them and Protect them,
                > >  or is this just more of HK's lip service?
                > >
                > >  HK: "The Internet, therefore, can be a golden
                > > window that opens one to unlimited possibilities
                > >  of information and entertainment.
                > >
                > >  Yet it can reveal a dark side too."
                > >
                > > [ME] Yes, the dark side of anything can show
                > > itself and be a negative factor, especially, for
                > >  unsupervised children. However, adults are more
                > >  mature and have freedom of choice. Besides, isn't
                > >  this a KAL controlled world of tests and challenges
                > > and why Soul is here for spiritual growth?
                > >
                > >  HK: "Once cautions were aired about radio, comic
                > >  books, and TV."
                > >
                > > [ME] Exactly, so what's your point Mr. Klemp?
                > > Klemp seems to be talking out of both sides of his
                > >  mouth on this issue and wants it both ways.
                > >  However, this is more of a ploy to confuse Eckists
                > > while creating more fears like with the EMR fear
                > >  that he has already established. One has to wonder
                > >  what good is the Mahanta if he can't protect Eckists
                > > from the KAL who only "rules" the Lower Worlds.
                > >  What happened to the Higher Consciousness of the
                > >  Higher Initiations? Klemp repeats this message
                > >  of fear in the H.I. Letter!
                > >
                > > HK: "And still our world spins lazily on.
                > > Unfortunately, some people rely on electronic
                > >  toys to get themselves booted up. They're
                > >  addicts, though, they refuse to face reality.
                > >  Glued to their chairs, they sit and eat, growing
                > > Obese."
                > >
                > > [ME] It seems Klemp is definitely talking about
                > > Cheryl Grumpyman! Maybe he's including his ex-wife,
                > > some ESC staffers and a few RESAs (among others)
                > > too!
                > >
                > > HK: "This is a worst-case scenario that appears
                > >  all too often. They prefer to communicate with
                > > others online instead of face-to-face."
                > >
                > > [ME] Now that's a really stupid and narrow-minded
                > > statement! Klemp is an Idiot! People can't travel those
                > >  distances in the physical world of limitation of time
                > > and space. And it's more convenient, cheaper, and
                > >  "Green" to communicate via computer. I guess that if
                > >  one follows Klemp's distorted logic we shouldn't use
                > > the telephone either! After all, using the phone is not
                > >  "face-to-face" and it is an electronic device that is held
                > > very close to the brain and emits EMR! Be afraid… very
                > >  afraid!
                > >
                > >  HK: "A danger inherent in any outside attraction is
                > > that a chela finds little time for the Spiritual Exercises
                > >  of ECK. So what is missing? Quietude."
                > >
                > > [ME] So, if this is a problem or a negative with
                > > "ANY outside attraction" why pick on just the "Internet"
                > >  with all of the positive benefits it has?! Besides, this
                > >  technology is, also, a means of uniting more people
                > >  than the Mahanta will ever be able to do! Why are there
                > > people at the ESC (and locally) assigned to Internet
                > >  media? See, it's to scare the gullible and fearful from
                > > discovering sites like this.
                > >
                > > HK seems to be inept as an all powerful Mahanta
                > > to influence and control chelas on the Inner Planes
                > > let alone on the outer. Therefore, he resorts to KAListic
                > >  methods by using the written word (print media,
                > > Internet), art work, tapes, CD's, DVD's, and the
                > > telephone/fax to get his outer (Lower Plane) message
                > > out. Like other religious fundamentalist leaders Klemp
                > > would love to have civil laws and government control
                > > implemented to control his flock of hens (roosters too)
                > > in that Eck Henhouse.
                > >
                > > HK: "There must be an oasis of tranquility, of peace
                > > and quiet, for there to be time for spiritual exercises,
                > > just plain reading, or even daydreaming. Reading, for
                > > example, has the power to open children, youth, and
                > > adults new horizons, without the constant bombardment
                > > of INVISIBLE ELECTRONIC BEAMS that hammer the body."
                > >
                > > [ME] Actually, one can do the S.E. before or after
                > > TV, i-Pod, radio, telephone, computer, golf, tennis,
                > > ocean surfing, snow boarding, intros, shopping, etc.
                > >  But, isn't daydreaming kind of Astral?! And, isn't Fear
                > > mongering, for whatever reason, a KAL technique since
                > >  Eckists have the Mahanta to "protect" them while non-
                > >  Eckists don't! It doesn't take a "chela" to use the off-
                > > switch once in awhile! LOL!
                > >
                > > HK: "This Hammering Weakens the Body's Defenses.
                > > Over the course of many years, an individual will
                > > Succumb to Any Number of Illnesses, ALL apparently
                > >  without cause."
                > >
                > > [ME] Klemp is saying that those chelas at the ESC
                > >  who work at their computers 8 hours a day, 5 days
                > > a week are also having their bodies hammered and
                > > weakened by these "Invisible Electronic Beams"
                > > and "will succumb to any number of illnesses" and
                > > "all apparently without cause." It would seem that
                > > these ill chelas have a cause for legal action and
                > >  compensation against Klemp and the Eckankar
                > > Church for Not protecting them from these harmful
                > >  "beams." And, since the Mahanta is the highest
                > > consciousness on the planet his word on this subject
                > >  must be heavily weighed by the courts if there is a
                > > Workers Compensation Claim filed with the state,
                > > or other lawsuit claiming supervised neglect of a
                > > "known" hazard.
                > >
                > >  HK: "A quiet time for reading will prove beneficial
                > > to one. He can sit at his own rate of reading, stopping
                > > now and again to let a point settle in. Again, an exciting
                > > story may cause him to race on, to see what will happen
                > > next. Reading also allows for daydreaming."
                > >
                > >  [ME] Actually, people can quietly "read" on the Internet
                > > and at any "rate" or speed! I can even stop and ponder a
                > >  point and daydream if I want!!! And, I can read things
                > >  that are current to the Now and are, therefore, not yet
                > > (or will ever be) in book form!
                > >
                > >  What kind of "Modern" Prophet is Klemp? This
                > >  self-created title seems like another oxymoron…
                > >  like military intelligence! In truth, Klemp is like
                > > most religious leaders and wants to control his
                > > members by any means possible when using fear,
                > >  guilt, and shame… and that carrot! Only with
                > >  Eckankar the "carrot" (i.e. Initiation, Higher
                > >  Consciousness, Spiritual Freedom, Self-Mastery)
                > > is supposed to be caught and eaten in this lifetime
                > >  instead of the next!
                > >
                > >  HK: "And all without the Brutal Hammering of
                > >  Electronic Meteors that shower down upon the
                > > Naked, unprotected planet of his Physical being."
                > >
                > > [ME] I'll bet HK loved using "naked." What a
                > > visualization! However, does this mean that my
                > > i-Pod and cell phone, telephone, TV, radio, car
                > > electronics, vacuum cleaner, clock radio, etc.
                > >  are "bad" too, or is it just our computers and the
                > >  Internet?! Why can't the Mahanta protect, at least,
                > >  the Higher Initiates?! This is also bad news for
                > > those Internet Eck Book Discussions and sites
                > > like HU-Chat and Chela-Chat, etc. Then again,
                > > most Eckists won't follow HK's nutty advice
                > > anyway! <smile>
                > >
                > > HK: "People may get lost in a virtual book world
                > > too."
                > >
                > >  [ME] People also "get lost" trying to find substance
                > >  from Klemps talks. These spoken words are even
                > >  more "virtual"  than computer images. Klemp has
                > > to convert his words to print ($$$) years after they
                > >  were spoken, or rely on unofficial note taking and
                > >  tapes being released (for sale) at the next seminar.
                > >  But, for someone who constantly dwells in the past
                > >  this is no big deal for Klemp.
                > >
                > >  HK: "Their interests may lie in stories of the past,
                > >  knowing that history—fact or fiction—matters,
                > > for it can teach them about themselves. A well-done
                > >  history will study characters in depth, BUT with the
                > > advantage of objectivity at arm's length. In that way,
                > > readers can get beyond the haze that surrounds their
                > >  own circumstances. So reading is important."
                > >
                > > [ME] Actually, Klemp is saying that Only reading
                > > Books, or print material, is important because the
                > >  "Electronic Meteors" of EMR from a computer
                > > will produce a fog or "haze" in one's mind and
                > >  this will prevent chelas learning about "themselves."
                > >
                > > Yet, HK has also stated that all thoughts, words,
                > > and books are of the Lower Planes of the mind.
                > >
                > >  How does this really affect the Eck chela if the
                > >  PR about the Inner/Outer Mahanta is true?! See,
                > > Klemp is proving that all of the crap that Eckists
                > > are told is true or imagine to be true is Not!
                > >
                > > HK: "However, so is writing, with pen and paper
                > > instead of on a computer."
                > >
                > >  [ME] Klemp is a joke as a Modern Prophet and
                > > as spiritual leader. He's not only stuck in the past,
                > > but he fears the Truth that Eckists might discover
                > > on the Internet. Remember when word processors
                > > came out and what an improvement that was for
                > > writers! No more white-out! And computers are
                > > even better because writers have spell check and
                > > can save huge amounts of material and do their
                > > own publications. One doesn't have to be online,
                > >  but according to Klemp being off-line is bad too!
                > > He's such an "expert" Liar isn't he!
                > >
                > > Anyway, there was more to HK's wordy article
                > > intended on scaring Eckists away from the Internet,
                > > [and sites telling the Truth about Eckankar], but
                > > it was redundant and irrelevant so I deleted it.
                > >
                > > Hey HK… Have A Nice Day! I have Just one question,
                > >  When you write do you really use an ink pen or a quill?!
                > >
                > > Prometheus
                > > >
                > >
                >
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
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              • mishmisha9
                Hi, Zoey! Thanks for the response! I just think that the current happenings in eckankar are highly important and interesting, and in some instances much more
                Message 7 of 12 , Jun 26, 2007
                  Hi, Zoey!

                  Thanks for the response! I just think that the current happenings
                  in eckankar are highly important and interesting, and in some
                  instances much more important than the past history.

                  Harold Klemp willingly and knowingly took on the leadership of
                  eckankar. He was "immersed" probably as much as anyone back then,
                  and maybe even more. He has maintained and also changed eckankar
                  to what it is today. So it is very important to look at and think about
                  what he is saying and doing today! What is Klemp's game plan for
                  keeping his seat of power in eckankar? Obviously, the Internet is
                  concerning him, so one has to consider why it is bothering him now?
                  Initially, he got chelas attention about becoming diseased from EMR.
                  I know some chelas who minicked this condition, because they were
                  becoming so "spiritually" sensitive like their mahanta. I think at the
                  time it helped chelas to stay away from David Lane's information
                  about eckankar. But that only stopped a few chelas. More importantly,
                  with all this debate and information about eckankar's secret teachings,
                  outsiders are looking at it . . . and I'm sure many are shaking their
                  heads in wonderment at how people can be so easily duped.

                  Perhaps, Klemp thinks getting/keeping his lower initiates off the
                  Internet will keep them more focused on the cult's brainwashing
                  which will keep them suckered in until they reach the point of
                  no return (high initiation level where by then so much time and money
                  has been invested, it is difficult for the arrogant highly evolved souls
                  to let go--or maybe they are too embarrassed by then to let go???
                  It's difficult to own up to mistakes, especially, stupid mistakes! LOL!)

                  I wasn't in eckankar a long time either, but I had my eck experiences
                  too. We all have our insights from our experiences, but I think the
                  members here like Prometheus and Liz who were in it for the long
                  haul and recently left the teachings know a lot more about the inner
                  workings of eckankar than the rest of us--since they are more current.

                  The information they put out there for us really catches my attention,
                  and that is why I'd like to see the discussion on the June 2007 Wisdom
                  Notes be expanded here. There's a lot to consider about what Klemp
                  wrote there.

                  Mish


                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "zoey_true"
                  <zoey_true@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > hey, mish. i'm fairly interested in eck events from the past, and in
                  > the present. i think it would be quite interesting to know harold's
                  > family dynamics.
                  >
                  > i didn't comment on the wisdom notes because i don't really have a
                  > comment. i'm not sure what underlying message hk is trying to convey
                  > with that computer stuff. he could be hoping that eckists will
                  > remain in the dark if they keep away from the internet. or he could
                  > be saying that he understands things on a level the rest of us
                  > don't. like, he knows about harmful beams, and the rest of us are
                  > clueless.
                  >
                  > i was only in eckankar 5 years, mish. i was never a higher
                  > initiate. but i was as insider as one can be, i suppose, without
                  > being a higher initiate. one of my best friends was the RESA, and i
                  > dated two hi's. i was one of the club. - i only relate these
                  > things to say that i was quite immersed in the whole thing.
                  >
                  > later, zoey...
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > -- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                  > <mishmisha9@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hi, All!
                  > >
                  > > Since Prometheus' post on The Wisdom Notes June 2007
                  > > got side-tracked with the other discussion that Zoey
                  > > brought to the forefront regarding Klemp's poor
                  > > family relationships and his hiding his past, I thought
                  > > I'd bring this more current topic back to the front page
                  > > for more discussion. It seems to me that what Klemp is saying
                  > > and writing now is of the upmost importance. I also find
                  > > it really interesting how Klemp wants to stop chelas,
                  > > especially the lower initiates from spending what he
                  > > considers too much time exploring the Internet! I have to
                  > > ask why he is bothered by this now??? What is going on
                  > > in his world, that of eckankar, that he is compelled to
                  > > put these alarms and concerns out there? Of course,
                  > > from my perspective, it would seem that sites like
                  > > ESA and other anti-eck groups might be bothering him???
                  > > Are the anti-eckankar discussions having an impact on the
                  > > growth of eckankar?? I can only hope so! : )
                  > >
                  > > BTW, Zoey, since you are so interested in the past
                  > > events in eckankar, I was wondering if what is currently
                  > > taking place concerns/interests you. For instance, what
                  > > do you think about the Wisdom Notes topic? Also, I really
                  > > would like to know more about your eck experience when
                  > > you have the chance. I had asked you in my previous post:
                  > >
                  > > "you might have already posted about your eck experience on here
                  > > or another site, but would you mind refreshing us? How many years
                  > > you were a member and your level of participation? How long you
                  > > have been out and why you dropped out? Just curious. Thanks!"
                  > >
                  > > Anyway, I hope we can start some good discussions about the
                  > > impact that the Internet is having on eckankar and its
                  > > leadership, namely, Klemp as he continues to hold on to the power!
                  > > LOL!
                  > >
                  > > Mish
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                  > > "mishmisha9" <mishmisha9@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Prometheus posted:
                  > > > Klemp Tries to Keep ECKists Off the Internet
                  > > > by Using Fear Tactics of Harmful "BEAMS."
                  > > >
                  > > > The Wisdom Notes- June 2007:
                  > > > Klemp wrote:
                  > > > "… the Internet, with its e-mail,
                  > > > instant messaging, games, RESEARCH
                  > > > GOLD MINES, study courses, and so
                  > > > much more.
                  > > >
                  > > > Many get lost and then swallowed up
                  > > > in this virtual universe. In doing so,
                  > > > they lose sight of the ECK.
                  > > >
                  > > > The Internet, therefore, can be a golden
                  > > > window that opens one to unlimited possibilities
                  > > > of information and entertainment.
                  > > >
                  > > > Yet it can reveal a dark side too.
                  > > >
                  > > > Once cautions were aired about radio, comic
                  > > > books, and TV." . . .
                  > > >
                  > > > ##Prometheus, thanks for sharing Klemp's latest
                  > > > Wisdom Notes! I have to say that this ranks up
                  > > > there with Klemp's book "Those Wonderful ECK
                  > > > Masters" in his attempt to suppress truth and
                  > > > manipulate his chelas. Rather disgusting while
                  > > > so laughable how Klemp tries to maintain control
                  > > > of his power seat. For him and eckankar, the Internet
                  > > > is a definite threat as more and more chelas search
                  > > > for the truth, and find it on various discussion sites
                  > > > that eckankar is based on lies and deceptions, and
                  > > > Klemp is nothing but a fake master who feasts off
                  > > > the gullible.
                  > > >
                  > > > Logically, when Klemp mentions in his Wisdom Notes
                  > > > how once society cautioned about radio, comic books
                  > > > and TV it would seem his cautions about the Internet
                  > > > should fall on deaf ears. After all, we still listen to the
                  > > > radio, read comic books and watch TV. Those things were
                  > > > not passing fancies, and so too, the Internet is here to stay.
                  > > > I don't think civilization has sunk into a dark abyss because
                  > > > of these modern electronics. On the contrary, it seems
                  > > > life has been enhanced and improved for the most part.
                  > > > Now we can have an abundance of friends from all over the
                  > > > world that we can easily communicate with on a regular
                  > > > basis. We can learn lots of information about various
                  > > > subjects of interest and concern. We can stay current with
                  > > > the news, etc.
                  > > >
                  > > > So, really, what is Klemp's beef about the Internet? I
                  > > > imagine that he is losing more membership in his org and
                  > > > that he feels challenged on a daily basis to keep his
                  > > > lies and deceptions afloat. Yes, eckankar is one of those
                  > > > orgs that is nothing more than a sinking ship. Klemp as captain
                  > > > is not ready to go down, so he is constantly attempting
                  > > > to plug up the leaks on his ill fated ship. Funny to watch!
                  > > >
                  > > > Seems that the Internet and all those foxes guarding the eck
                  > > > hen house are big problems for Klemp! They go hand in hand,
                  > > > don't they! : )
                  > > >
                  > > > Mish
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > ***************************************************************
                  > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                  > > > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Klemp Tries to Keep ECKists Off the Internet
                  > > > by Using Fear Tactics of Harmful "BEAMS."
                  > > >
                  > > > The Wisdom Notes- June 2007:
                  > > >
                  > > > HK: "… the Internet, with its e-mail,
                  > > > instant messaging, games, RESEARCH
                  > > > GOLD MINES, study courses, and so
                  > > > much more.
                  > > >
                  > > > Many get lost and then swallowed up
                  > > > in this virtual universe. In doing so,
                  > > > they lose sight of the ECK."
                  > > >
                  > > > [ME] But don't Eckists have their Inner
                  > > > Mahanta to Guide them and Protect them,
                  > > > or is this just more of HK's lip service?
                  > > >
                  > > > HK: "The Internet, therefore, can be a golden
                  > > > window that opens one to unlimited possibilities
                  > > > of information and entertainment.
                  > > >
                  > > > Yet it can reveal a dark side too."
                  > > >
                  > > > [ME] Yes, the dark side of anything can show
                  > > > itself and be a negative factor, especially, for
                  > > > unsupervised children. However, adults are more
                  > > > mature and have freedom of choice. Besides, isn't
                  > > > this a KAL controlled world of tests and challenges
                  > > > and why Soul is here for spiritual growth?
                  > > >
                  > > > HK: "Once cautions were aired about radio, comic
                  > > > books, and TV."
                  > > >
                  > > > [ME] Exactly, so what's your point Mr. Klemp?
                  > > > Klemp seems to be talking out of both sides of his
                  > > > mouth on this issue and wants it both ways.
                  > > > However, this is more of a ploy to confuse Eckists
                  > > > while creating more fears like with the EMR fear
                  > > > that he has already established. One has to wonder
                  > > > what good is the Mahanta if he can't protect Eckists
                  > > > from the KAL who only "rules" the Lower Worlds.
                  > > > What happened to the Higher Consciousness of the
                  > > > Higher Initiations? Klemp repeats this message
                  > > > of fear in the H.I. Letter!
                  > > >
                  > > > HK: "And still our world spins lazily on.
                  > > > Unfortunately, some people rely on electronic
                  > > > toys to get themselves booted up. They're
                  > > > addicts, though, they refuse to face reality.
                  > > > Glued to their chairs, they sit and eat, growing
                  > > > Obese."
                  > > >
                  > > > [ME] It seems Klemp is definitely talking about
                  > > > Cheryl Grumpyman! Maybe he's including his ex-wife,
                  > > > some ESC staffers and a few RESAs (among others)
                  > > > too!
                  > > >
                  > > > HK: "This is a worst-case scenario that appears
                  > > > all too often. They prefer to communicate with
                  > > > others online instead of face-to-face."
                  > > >
                  > > > [ME] Now that's a really stupid and narrow-minded
                  > > > statement! Klemp is an Idiot! People can't travel those
                  > > > distances in the physical world of limitation of time
                  > > > and space. And it's more convenient, cheaper, and
                  > > > "Green" to communicate via computer. I guess that if
                  > > > one follows Klemp's distorted logic we shouldn't use
                  > > > the telephone either! After all, using the phone is not
                  > > > "face-to-face" and it is an electronic device that is held
                  > > > very close to the brain and emits EMR! Be afraid… very
                  > > > afraid!
                  > > >
                  > > > HK: "A danger inherent in any outside attraction is
                  > > > that a chela finds little time for the Spiritual Exercises
                  > > > of ECK. So what is missing? Quietude."
                  > > >
                  > > > [ME] So, if this is a problem or a negative with
                  > > > "ANY outside attraction" why pick on just the "Internet"
                  > > > with all of the positive benefits it has?! Besides, this
                  > > > technology is, also, a means of uniting more people
                  > > > than the Mahanta will ever be able to do! Why are there
                  > > > people at the ESC (and locally) assigned to Internet
                  > > > media? See, it's to scare the gullible and fearful from
                  > > > discovering sites like this.
                  > > >
                  > > > HK seems to be inept as an all powerful Mahanta
                  > > > to influence and control chelas on the Inner Planes
                  > > > let alone on the outer. Therefore, he resorts to KAListic
                  > > > methods by using the written word (print media,
                  > > > Internet), art work, tapes, CD's, DVD's, and the
                  > > > telephone/fax to get his outer (Lower Plane) message
                  > > > out. Like other religious fundamentalist leaders Klemp
                  > > > would love to have civil laws and government control
                  > > > implemented to control his flock of hens (roosters too)
                  > > > in that Eck Henhouse.
                  > > >
                  > > > HK: "There must be an oasis of tranquility, of peace
                  > > > and quiet, for there to be time for spiritual exercises,
                  > > > just plain reading, or even daydreaming. Reading, for
                  > > > example, has the power to open children, youth, and
                  > > > adults new horizons, without the constant bombardment
                  > > > of INVISIBLE ELECTRONIC BEAMS that hammer the body."
                  > > >
                  > > > [ME] Actually, one can do the S.E. before or after
                  > > > TV, i-Pod, radio, telephone, computer, golf, tennis,
                  > > > ocean surfing, snow boarding, intros, shopping, etc.
                  > > > But, isn't daydreaming kind of Astral?! And, isn't Fear
                  > > > mongering, for whatever reason, a KAL technique since
                  > > > Eckists have the Mahanta to "protect" them while non-
                  > > > Eckists don't! It doesn't take a "chela" to use the off-
                  > > > switch once in awhile! LOL!
                  > > >
                  > > > HK: "This Hammering Weakens the Body's Defenses.
                  > > > Over the course of many years, an individual will
                  > > > Succumb to Any Number of Illnesses, ALL apparently
                  > > > without cause."
                  > > >
                  > > > [ME] Klemp is saying that those chelas at the ESC
                  > > > who work at their computers 8 hours a day, 5 days
                  > > > a week are also having their bodies hammered and
                  > > > weakened by these "Invisible Electronic Beams"
                  > > > and "will succumb to any number of illnesses" and
                  > > > "all apparently without cause." It would seem that
                  > > > these ill chelas have a cause for legal action and
                  > > > compensation against Klemp and the Eckankar
                  > > > Church for Not protecting them from these harmful
                  > > > "beams." And, since the Mahanta is the highest
                  > > > consciousness on the planet his word on this subject
                  > > > must be heavily weighed by the courts if there is a
                  > > > Workers Compensation Claim filed with the state,
                  > > > or other lawsuit claiming supervised neglect of a
                  > > > "known" hazard.
                  > > >
                  > > > HK: "A quiet time for reading will prove beneficial
                  > > > to one. He can sit at his own rate of reading, stopping
                  > > > now and again to let a point settle in. Again, an exciting
                  > > > story may cause him to race on, to see what will happen
                  > > > next. Reading also allows for daydreaming."
                  > > >
                  > > > [ME] Actually, people can quietly "read" on the Internet
                  > > > and at any "rate" or speed! I can even stop and ponder a
                  > > > point and daydream if I want!!! And, I can read things
                  > > > that are current to the Now and are, therefore, not yet
                  > > > (or will ever be) in book form!
                  > > >
                  > > > What kind of "Modern" Prophet is Klemp? This
                  > > > self-created title seems like another oxymoron…
                  > > > like military intelligence! In truth, Klemp is like
                  > > > most religious leaders and wants to control his
                  > > > members by any means possible when using fear,
                  > > > guilt, and shame… and that carrot! Only with
                  > > > Eckankar the "carrot" (i.e. Initiation, Higher
                  > > > Consciousness, Spiritual Freedom, Self-Mastery)
                  > > > is supposed to be caught and eaten in this lifetime
                  > > > instead of the next!
                  > > >
                  > > > HK: "And all without the Brutal Hammering of
                  > > > Electronic Meteors that shower down upon the
                  > > > Naked, unprotected planet of his Physical being."
                  > > >
                  > > > [ME] I'll bet HK loved using "naked." What a
                  > > > visualization! However, does this mean that my
                  > > > i-Pod and cell phone, telephone, TV, radio, car
                  > > > electronics, vacuum cleaner, clock radio, etc.
                  > > > are "bad" too, or is it just our computers and the
                  > > > Internet?! Why can't the Mahanta protect, at least,
                  > > > the Higher Initiates?! This is also bad news for
                  > > > those Internet Eck Book Discussions and sites
                  > > > like HU-Chat and Chela-Chat, etc. Then again,
                  > > > most Eckists won't follow HK's nutty advice
                  > > > anyway! <smile>
                  > > >
                  > > > HK: "People may get lost in a virtual book world
                  > > > too."
                  > > >
                  > > > [ME] People also "get lost" trying to find substance
                  > > > from Klemps talks. These spoken words are even
                  > > > more "virtual" than computer images. Klemp has
                  > > > to convert his words to print ($$$) years after they
                  > > > were spoken, or rely on unofficial note taking and
                  > > > tapes being released (for sale) at the next seminar.
                  > > > But, for someone who constantly dwells in the past
                  > > > this is no big deal for Klemp.
                  > > >
                  > > > HK: "Their interests may lie in stories of the past,
                  > > > knowing that history—fact or fiction—matters,
                  > > > for it can teach them about themselves. A well-done
                  > > > history will study characters in depth, BUT with the
                  > > > advantage of objectivity at arm's length. In that way,
                  > > > readers can get beyond the haze that surrounds their
                  > > > own circumstances. So reading is important."
                  > > >
                  > > > [ME] Actually, Klemp is saying that Only reading
                  > > > Books, or print material, is important because the
                  > > > "Electronic Meteors" of EMR from a computer
                  > > > will produce a fog or "haze" in one's mind and
                  > > > this will prevent chelas learning about "themselves."
                  > > >
                  > > > Yet, HK has also stated that all thoughts, words,
                  > > > and books are of the Lower Planes of the mind.
                  > > >
                  > > > How does this really affect the Eck chela if the
                  > > > PR about the Inner/Outer Mahanta is true?! See,
                  > > > Klemp is proving that all of the crap that Eckists
                  > > > are told is true or imagine to be true is Not!
                  > > >
                  > > > HK: "However, so is writing, with pen and paper
                  > > > instead of on a computer."
                  > > >
                  > > > [ME] Klemp is a joke as a Modern Prophet and
                  > > > as spiritual leader. He's not only stuck in the past,
                  > > > but he fears the Truth that Eckists might discover
                  > > > on the Internet. Remember when word processors
                  > > > came out and what an improvement that was for
                  > > > writers! No more white-out! And computers are
                  > > > even better because writers have spell check and
                  > > > can save huge amounts of material and do their
                  > > > own publications. One doesn't have to be online,
                  > > > but according to Klemp being off-line is bad too!
                  > > > He's such an "expert" Liar isn't he!
                  > > >
                  > > > Anyway, there was more to HK's wordy article
                  > > > intended on scaring Eckists away from the Internet,
                  > > > [and sites telling the Truth about Eckankar], but
                  > > > it was redundant and irrelevant so I deleted it.
                  > > >
                  > > > Hey HK… Have A Nice Day! I have Just one question,
                  > > > When you write do you really use an ink pen or a quill?!
                  > > >
                  > > > Prometheus
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • zoey_true
                  i couldn t agree more, mish. i ve sent posts before discussing the differences in twitchell s early eckankar, and harold s current eckankar. these were just
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jun 26, 2007
                    i couldn't agree more, mish. i've sent posts before discussing the
                    differences in twitchell's early eckankar, and harold's current
                    eckankar. these were just my observations, of course, but i do
                    believe that today's eckankar has involved into quite a different
                    beast.

                    i keep somewhat abreast through eck friends. otherwise, i come to
                    the internet to find out what is up.

                    zoey...


                    ---
                    In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                    <mishmisha9@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi, Zoey!
                    >
                    > Thanks for the response! I just think that the current happenings
                    > in eckankar are highly important and interesting, and in some
                    > instances much more important than the past history.
                    >
                    > Harold Klemp willingly and knowingly took on the leadership of
                    > eckankar. He was "immersed" probably as much as anyone back then,
                    > and maybe even more. He has maintained and also changed eckankar
                    > to what it is today. So it is very important to look at and think
                    about
                    > what he is saying and doing today! What is Klemp's game plan for
                    > keeping his seat of power in eckankar? Obviously, the Internet is
                    > concerning him, so one has to consider why it is bothering him now?
                    > Initially, he got chelas attention about becoming diseased from
                    EMR.
                    > I know some chelas who minicked this condition, because they were
                    > becoming so "spiritually" sensitive like their mahanta. I think at
                    the
                    > time it helped chelas to stay away from David Lane's information
                    > about eckankar. But that only stopped a few chelas. More
                    importantly,
                    > with all this debate and information about eckankar's secret
                    teachings,
                    > outsiders are looking at it . . . and I'm sure many are shaking
                    their
                    > heads in wonderment at how people can be so easily duped.
                    >
                    > Perhaps, Klemp thinks getting/keeping his lower initiates off the
                    > Internet will keep them more focused on the cult's brainwashing
                    > which will keep them suckered in until they reach the point of
                    > no return (high initiation level where by then so much time and
                    money
                    > has been invested, it is difficult for the arrogant highly evolved
                    souls
                    > to let go--or maybe they are too embarrassed by then to let go???
                    > It's difficult to own up to mistakes, especially, stupid mistakes!
                    LOL!)
                    >
                    > I wasn't in eckankar a long time either, but I had my eck
                    experiences
                    > too. We all have our insights from our experiences, but I think the
                    > members here like Prometheus and Liz who were in it for the long
                    > haul and recently left the teachings know a lot more about the
                    inner
                    > workings of eckankar than the rest of us--since they are more
                    current.
                    >
                    > The information they put out there for us really catches my
                    attention,
                    > and that is why I'd like to see the discussion on the June 2007
                    Wisdom
                    > Notes be expanded here. There's a lot to consider about what Klemp
                    > wrote there.
                    >
                    > Mish
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "zoey_true"
                    > <zoey_true@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > hey, mish. i'm fairly interested in eck events from the past,
                    and in
                    > > the present. i think it would be quite interesting to know
                    harold's
                    > > family dynamics.
                    > >
                    > > i didn't comment on the wisdom notes because i don't really have
                    a
                    > > comment. i'm not sure what underlying message hk is trying to
                    convey
                    > > with that computer stuff. he could be hoping that eckists will
                    > > remain in the dark if they keep away from the internet. or he
                    could
                    > > be saying that he understands things on a level the rest of us
                    > > don't. like, he knows about harmful beams, and the rest of us
                    are
                    > > clueless.
                    > >
                    > > i was only in eckankar 5 years, mish. i was never a higher
                    > > initiate. but i was as insider as one can be, i suppose, without
                    > > being a higher initiate. one of my best friends was the RESA,
                    and i
                    > > dated two hi's. i was one of the club. - i only relate these
                    > > things to say that i was quite immersed in the whole thing.
                    > >
                    > > later, zoey...
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > -- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                    > > <mishmisha9@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Hi, All!
                    > > >
                    > > > Since Prometheus' post on The Wisdom Notes June 2007
                    > > > got side-tracked with the other discussion that Zoey
                    > > > brought to the forefront regarding Klemp's poor
                    > > > family relationships and his hiding his past, I thought
                    > > > I'd bring this more current topic back to the front page
                    > > > for more discussion. It seems to me that what Klemp is saying
                    > > > and writing now is of the upmost importance. I also find
                    > > > it really interesting how Klemp wants to stop chelas,
                    > > > especially the lower initiates from spending what he
                    > > > considers too much time exploring the Internet! I have to
                    > > > ask why he is bothered by this now??? What is going on
                    > > > in his world, that of eckankar, that he is compelled to
                    > > > put these alarms and concerns out there? Of course,
                    > > > from my perspective, it would seem that sites like
                    > > > ESA and other anti-eck groups might be bothering him???
                    > > > Are the anti-eckankar discussions having an impact on the
                    > > > growth of eckankar?? I can only hope so! : )
                    > > >
                    > > > BTW, Zoey, since you are so interested in the past
                    > > > events in eckankar, I was wondering if what is currently
                    > > > taking place concerns/interests you. For instance, what
                    > > > do you think about the Wisdom Notes topic? Also, I really
                    > > > would like to know more about your eck experience when
                    > > > you have the chance. I had asked you in my previous post:
                    > > >
                    > > > "you might have already posted about your eck experience on here
                    > > > or another site, but would you mind refreshing us? How many
                    years
                    > > > you were a member and your level of participation? How long you
                    > > > have been out and why you dropped out? Just curious. Thanks!"
                    > > >
                    > > > Anyway, I hope we can start some good discussions about the
                    > > > impact that the Internet is having on eckankar and its
                    > > > leadership, namely, Klemp as he continues to hold on to the
                    power!
                    > > > LOL!
                    > > >
                    > > > Mish
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                    > > > "mishmisha9" <mishmisha9@> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Prometheus posted:
                    > > > > Klemp Tries to Keep ECKists Off the Internet
                    > > > > by Using Fear Tactics of Harmful "BEAMS."
                    > > > >
                    > > > > The Wisdom Notes- June 2007:
                    > > > > Klemp wrote:
                    > > > > "… the Internet, with its e-mail,
                    > > > > instant messaging, games, RESEARCH
                    > > > > GOLD MINES, study courses, and so
                    > > > > much more.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Many get lost and then swallowed up
                    > > > > in this virtual universe. In doing so,
                    > > > > they lose sight of the ECK.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > The Internet, therefore, can be a golden
                    > > > > window that opens one to unlimited possibilities
                    > > > > of information and entertainment.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Yet it can reveal a dark side too.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Once cautions were aired about radio, comic
                    > > > > books, and TV." . . .
                    > > > >
                    > > > > ##Prometheus, thanks for sharing Klemp's latest
                    > > > > Wisdom Notes! I have to say that this ranks up
                    > > > > there with Klemp's book "Those Wonderful ECK
                    > > > > Masters" in his attempt to suppress truth and
                    > > > > manipulate his chelas. Rather disgusting while
                    > > > > so laughable how Klemp tries to maintain control
                    > > > > of his power seat. For him and eckankar, the Internet
                    > > > > is a definite threat as more and more chelas search
                    > > > > for the truth, and find it on various discussion sites
                    > > > > that eckankar is based on lies and deceptions, and
                    > > > > Klemp is nothing but a fake master who feasts off
                    > > > > the gullible.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Logically, when Klemp mentions in his Wisdom Notes
                    > > > > how once society cautioned about radio, comic books
                    > > > > and TV it would seem his cautions about the Internet
                    > > > > should fall on deaf ears. After all, we still listen to the
                    > > > > radio, read comic books and watch TV. Those things were
                    > > > > not passing fancies, and so too, the Internet is here to stay.
                    > > > > I don't think civilization has sunk into a dark abyss because
                    > > > > of these modern electronics. On the contrary, it seems
                    > > > > life has been enhanced and improved for the most part.
                    > > > > Now we can have an abundance of friends from all over the
                    > > > > world that we can easily communicate with on a regular
                    > > > > basis. We can learn lots of information about various
                    > > > > subjects of interest and concern. We can stay current with
                    > > > > the news, etc.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > So, really, what is Klemp's beef about the Internet? I
                    > > > > imagine that he is losing more membership in his org and
                    > > > > that he feels challenged on a daily basis to keep his
                    > > > > lies and deceptions afloat. Yes, eckankar is one of those
                    > > > > orgs that is nothing more than a sinking ship. Klemp as
                    captain
                    > > > > is not ready to go down, so he is constantly attempting
                    > > > > to plug up the leaks on his ill fated ship. Funny to watch!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Seems that the Internet and all those foxes guarding the eck
                    > > > > hen house are big problems for Klemp! They go hand in hand,
                    > > > > don't they! : )
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Mish
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    ***************************************************************
                    > > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                    > > > > "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Klemp Tries to Keep ECKists Off the Internet
                    > > > > by Using Fear Tactics of Harmful "BEAMS."
                    > > > >
                    > > > > The Wisdom Notes- June 2007:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > HK: "… the Internet, with its e-mail,
                    > > > > instant messaging, games, RESEARCH
                    > > > > GOLD MINES, study courses, and so
                    > > > > much more.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Many get lost and then swallowed up
                    > > > > in this virtual universe. In doing so,
                    > > > > they lose sight of the ECK."
                    > > > >
                    > > > > [ME] But don't Eckists have their Inner
                    > > > > Mahanta to Guide them and Protect them,
                    > > > > or is this just more of HK's lip service?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > HK: "The Internet, therefore, can be a golden
                    > > > > window that opens one to unlimited possibilities
                    > > > > of information and entertainment.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Yet it can reveal a dark side too."
                    > > > >
                    > > > > [ME] Yes, the dark side of anything can show
                    > > > > itself and be a negative factor, especially, for
                    > > > > unsupervised children. However, adults are more
                    > > > > mature and have freedom of choice. Besides, isn't
                    > > > > this a KAL controlled world of tests and challenges
                    > > > > and why Soul is here for spiritual growth?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > HK: "Once cautions were aired about radio, comic
                    > > > > books, and TV."
                    > > > >
                    > > > > [ME] Exactly, so what's your point Mr. Klemp?
                    > > > > Klemp seems to be talking out of both sides of his
                    > > > > mouth on this issue and wants it both ways.
                    > > > > However, this is more of a ploy to confuse Eckists
                    > > > > while creating more fears like with the EMR fear
                    > > > > that he has already established. One has to wonder
                    > > > > what good is the Mahanta if he can't protect Eckists
                    > > > > from the KAL who only "rules" the Lower Worlds.
                    > > > > What happened to the Higher Consciousness of the
                    > > > > Higher Initiations? Klemp repeats this message
                    > > > > of fear in the H.I. Letter!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > HK: "And still our world spins lazily on.
                    > > > > Unfortunately, some people rely on electronic
                    > > > > toys to get themselves booted up. They're
                    > > > > addicts, though, they refuse to face reality.
                    > > > > Glued to their chairs, they sit and eat, growing
                    > > > > Obese."
                    > > > >
                    > > > > [ME] It seems Klemp is definitely talking about
                    > > > > Cheryl Grumpyman! Maybe he's including his ex-wife,
                    > > > > some ESC staffers and a few RESAs (among others)
                    > > > > too!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > HK: "This is a worst-case scenario that appears
                    > > > > all too often. They prefer to communicate with
                    > > > > others online instead of face-to-face."
                    > > > >
                    > > > > [ME] Now that's a really stupid and narrow-minded
                    > > > > statement! Klemp is an Idiot! People can't travel those
                    > > > > distances in the physical world of limitation of time
                    > > > > and space. And it's more convenient, cheaper, and
                    > > > > "Green" to communicate via computer. I guess that if
                    > > > > one follows Klemp's distorted logic we shouldn't use
                    > > > > the telephone either! After all, using the phone is not
                    > > > > "face-to-face" and it is an electronic device that is held
                    > > > > very close to the brain and emits EMR! Be afraid… very
                    > > > > afraid!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > HK: "A danger inherent in any outside attraction is
                    > > > > that a chela finds little time for the Spiritual Exercises
                    > > > > of ECK. So what is missing? Quietude."
                    > > > >
                    > > > > [ME] So, if this is a problem or a negative with
                    > > > > "ANY outside attraction" why pick on just the "Internet"
                    > > > > with all of the positive benefits it has?! Besides, this
                    > > > > technology is, also, a means of uniting more people
                    > > > > than the Mahanta will ever be able to do! Why are there
                    > > > > people at the ESC (and locally) assigned to Internet
                    > > > > media? See, it's to scare the gullible and fearful from
                    > > > > discovering sites like this.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > HK seems to be inept as an all powerful Mahanta
                    > > > > to influence and control chelas on the Inner Planes
                    > > > > let alone on the outer. Therefore, he resorts to KAListic
                    > > > > methods by using the written word (print media,
                    > > > > Internet), art work, tapes, CD's, DVD's, and the
                    > > > > telephone/fax to get his outer (Lower Plane) message
                    > > > > out. Like other religious fundamentalist leaders Klemp
                    > > > > would love to have civil laws and government control
                    > > > > implemented to control his flock of hens (roosters too)
                    > > > > in that Eck Henhouse.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > HK: "There must be an oasis of tranquility, of peace
                    > > > > and quiet, for there to be time for spiritual exercises,
                    > > > > just plain reading, or even daydreaming. Reading, for
                    > > > > example, has the power to open children, youth, and
                    > > > > adults new horizons, without the constant bombardment
                    > > > > of INVISIBLE ELECTRONIC BEAMS that hammer the body."
                    > > > >
                    > > > > [ME] Actually, one can do the S.E. before or after
                    > > > > TV, i-Pod, radio, telephone, computer, golf, tennis,
                    > > > > ocean surfing, snow boarding, intros, shopping, etc.
                    > > > > But, isn't daydreaming kind of Astral?! And, isn't Fear
                    > > > > mongering, for whatever reason, a KAL technique since
                    > > > > Eckists have the Mahanta to "protect" them while non-
                    > > > > Eckists don't! It doesn't take a "chela" to use the off-
                    > > > > switch once in awhile! LOL!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > HK: "This Hammering Weakens the Body's Defenses.
                    > > > > Over the course of many years, an individual will
                    > > > > Succumb to Any Number of Illnesses, ALL apparently
                    > > > > without cause."
                    > > > >
                    > > > > [ME] Klemp is saying that those chelas at the ESC
                    > > > > who work at their computers 8 hours a day, 5 days
                    > > > > a week are also having their bodies hammered and
                    > > > > weakened by these "Invisible Electronic Beams"
                    > > > > and "will succumb to any number of illnesses" and
                    > > > > "all apparently without cause." It would seem that
                    > > > > these ill chelas have a cause for legal action and
                    > > > > compensation against Klemp and the Eckankar
                    > > > > Church for Not protecting them from these harmful
                    > > > > "beams." And, since the Mahanta is the highest
                    > > > > consciousness on the planet his word on this subject
                    > > > > must be heavily weighed by the courts if there is a
                    > > > > Workers Compensation Claim filed with the state,
                    > > > > or other lawsuit claiming supervised neglect of a
                    > > > > "known" hazard.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > HK: "A quiet time for reading will prove beneficial
                    > > > > to one. He can sit at his own rate of reading, stopping
                    > > > > now and again to let a point settle in. Again, an exciting
                    > > > > story may cause him to race on, to see what will happen
                    > > > > next. Reading also allows for daydreaming."
                    > > > >
                    > > > > [ME] Actually, people can quietly "read" on the Internet
                    > > > > and at any "rate" or speed! I can even stop and ponder a
                    > > > > point and daydream if I want!!! And, I can read things
                    > > > > that are current to the Now and are, therefore, not yet
                    > > > > (or will ever be) in book form!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > What kind of "Modern" Prophet is Klemp? This
                    > > > > self-created title seems like another oxymoron…
                    > > > > like military intelligence! In truth, Klemp is like
                    > > > > most religious leaders and wants to control his
                    > > > > members by any means possible when using fear,
                    > > > > guilt, and shame… and that carrot! Only with
                    > > > > Eckankar the "carrot" (i.e. Initiation, Higher
                    > > > > Consciousness, Spiritual Freedom, Self-Mastery)
                    > > > > is supposed to be caught and eaten in this lifetime
                    > > > > instead of the next!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > HK: "And all without the Brutal Hammering of
                    > > > > Electronic Meteors that shower down upon the
                    > > > > Naked, unprotected planet of his Physical being."
                    > > > >
                    > > > > [ME] I'll bet HK loved using "naked." What a
                    > > > > visualization! However, does this mean that my
                    > > > > i-Pod and cell phone, telephone, TV, radio, car
                    > > > > electronics, vacuum cleaner, clock radio, etc.
                    > > > > are "bad" too, or is it just our computers and the
                    > > > > Internet?! Why can't the Mahanta protect, at least,
                    > > > > the Higher Initiates?! This is also bad news for
                    > > > > those Internet Eck Book Discussions and sites
                    > > > > like HU-Chat and Chela-Chat, etc. Then again,
                    > > > > most Eckists won't follow HK's nutty advice
                    > > > > anyway! <smile>
                    > > > >
                    > > > > HK: "People may get lost in a virtual book world
                    > > > > too."
                    > > > >
                    > > > > [ME] People also "get lost" trying to find substance
                    > > > > from Klemps talks. These spoken words are even
                    > > > > more "virtual" than computer images. Klemp has
                    > > > > to convert his words to print ($$$) years after they
                    > > > > were spoken, or rely on unofficial note taking and
                    > > > > tapes being released (for sale) at the next seminar.
                    > > > > But, for someone who constantly dwells in the past
                    > > > > this is no big deal for Klemp.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > HK: "Their interests may lie in stories of the past,
                    > > > > knowing that history—fact or fiction—matters,
                    > > > > for it can teach them about themselves. A well-done
                    > > > > history will study characters in depth, BUT with the
                    > > > > advantage of objectivity at arm's length. In that way,
                    > > > > readers can get beyond the haze that surrounds their
                    > > > > own circumstances. So reading is important."
                    > > > >
                    > > > > [ME] Actually, Klemp is saying that Only reading
                    > > > > Books, or print material, is important because the
                    > > > > "Electronic Meteors" of EMR from a computer
                    > > > > will produce a fog or "haze" in one's mind and
                    > > > > this will prevent chelas learning about "themselves."
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Yet, HK has also stated that all thoughts, words,
                    > > > > and books are of the Lower Planes of the mind.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > How does this really affect the Eck chela if the
                    > > > > PR about the Inner/Outer Mahanta is true?! See,
                    > > > > Klemp is proving that all of the crap that Eckists
                    > > > > are told is true or imagine to be true is Not!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > HK: "However, so is writing, with pen and paper
                    > > > > instead of on a computer."
                    > > > >
                    > > > > [ME] Klemp is a joke as a Modern Prophet and
                    > > > > as spiritual leader. He's not only stuck in the past,
                    > > > > but he fears the Truth that Eckists might discover
                    > > > > on the Internet. Remember when word processors
                    > > > > came out and what an improvement that was for
                    > > > > writers! No more white-out! And computers are
                    > > > > even better because writers have spell check and
                    > > > > can save huge amounts of material and do their
                    > > > > own publications. One doesn't have to be online,
                    > > > > but according to Klemp being off-line is bad too!
                    > > > > He's such an "expert" Liar isn't he!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Anyway, there was more to HK's wordy article
                    > > > > intended on scaring Eckists away from the Internet,
                    > > > > [and sites telling the Truth about Eckankar], but
                    > > > > it was redundant and irrelevant so I deleted it.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Hey HK… Have A Nice Day! I have Just one question,
                    > > > > When you write do you really use an ink pen or a quill?!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Prometheus
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • prometheus_973
                    Hi Mish, Yes, Klemp has a message of Fear the Harmful Beams for Lower Eckists and another message for H.I.s (moderation)! HK is, once again, talking out of
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jun 27, 2007
                      Hi Mish,
                      Yes, Klemp has a message of "Fear the Harmful Beams"
                      for Lower Eckists and another message for H.I.s (moderation)!
                      HK is, once again, talking out of both sides of his mouth
                      when he uses FEAR to influence Lower Eck Initiates,
                      (to stay away from the harmful "Invisible Electronic Beams"
                      and "Electronic Meteors" (EMR) eminating from their
                      computers), and giving permission to use the Computer
                      to H.I.s. The Mahanta tells H.I.s to just use "moderation,"
                      and never once mentions the Negative Side-Effects as he
                      does to Lower Initiates. Yes, "Z's" ploy is to keep Lower
                      Initiates off the Internet. However, why doesn't he mention
                      the dangers of VIDEO GAME ADDICTION as he does to the
                      H.I.s! Don't Lower Initiates, also, have children that might
                      become addicted too?!

                      Except for us posting this H.I. Letter information... When/How
                      would it be shared or made known to the Lower Initiates?
                      Let's face it, "Z" is not a very nice or stable person!

                      Mish, I have more comments to your responses below.

                      Prometheus


                      mish wrote:

                      Prometheus posted:
                      Klemp Tries to Keep ECKists Off the Internet
                      by Using Fear Tactics of Harmful "BEAMS."

                      The Wisdom Notes- June 2007:
                      Klemp wrote:

                      "… the INTERNET, with its E-MAIL,
                      INSTANT MESSAGING, games, RESEARCH
                      GOLD MINES, study courses, and SO
                      MUCH MORE.

                      MANY GET LOST and then SWALLOWED UP
                      in this virtual universe. In doing so,
                      they lose sight of the ECK.

                      The Internet, therefore, can be a golden
                      window that opens one to unlimited possibilities
                      of information and entertainment.

                      Yet it can reveal a dark side too.

                      Once cautions were aired about radio, comic
                      books, and TV." . . .

                      ##Prometheus, thanks for sharing Klemp's latest
                      Wisdom Notes! I have to say that this ranks up
                      there with Klemp's book "Those Wonderful ECK
                      Masters" in his attempt to suppress truth and
                      manipulate his chelas. Rather disgusting while
                      so laughable how Klemp tries to maintain control
                      of his power seat. For him and eckankar, the Internet
                      is a definite threat as more and more chelas search
                      for the truth, and find it on various discussion sites
                      that eckankar is based on lies and deceptions, and
                      Klemp is nothing but a fake master who feasts off
                      the gullible.


                      *** Yes, Klemp is a master manipulator. Of course, that
                      isn't much of an accomplishment considering the instability
                      of some Eckists. Please take another look at The H.I. Letter
                      (June 2007) posted here (ESA) too!


                      ##Logically, when Klemp mentions in his Wisdom Notes
                      how once society cautioned about radio, comic books
                      and TV it would seem his cautions about the Internet
                      should fall on deaf ears. After all, we still listen to the
                      radio, read comic books and watch TV. Those things were
                      not passing fancies, and so too, the Internet is here to stay.
                      I don't think civilization has sunk into a dark abyss because
                      of these modern electronics. On the contrary, it seems
                      life has been enhanced and improved for the most part.
                      Now we can have an abundance of friends from all over the
                      world that we can easily communicate with on a regular
                      basis. We can learn lots of information about various
                      subjects of interest and concern. We can stay current with
                      the news, etc.


                      *** Exactly! Klemp contradicts his own negative cautions
                      about the Internet and harmful "beams" with his comments
                      about about how others, in the past, used Fear Mongering
                      in regard to Radio, Comic Books, and TV.


                      ##So, really, what is Klemp's beef about the Internet? I
                      imagine that he is losing more membership in his org and
                      that he feels challenged on a daily basis to keep his
                      lies and deceptions afloat. Yes, eckankar is one of those
                      orgs that is nothing more than a sinking ship. Klemp as captain
                      is not ready to go down, so he is constantly attempting
                      to plug up the leaks on his ill fated ship. Funny to watch!


                      *** I have had reports of some very High Members of the
                      the Eckankar Org. resigning and moving far away from the
                      influence of those they once trusted. The Foxes guarding
                      the Eck Henhouse comments by Klemp caused one Eckist
                      to leave. Maybe she didn't like Klemp refering to her as a
                      chicken when, in fact, she had been mislead to think HK
                      saw her as an eagle in Eck! The Truth can hurt, as well as, awaken!


                      ##Seems that the Internet and all those foxes guarding the eck
                      hen house are big problems for Klemp! They go hand in hand,
                      don't they! : )


                      *** Yes! What is Klemp to do?! He's trying to cover all of the bases
                      by using both fear and fact. Are there "HARMFUL BEAMS" being
                      emitted by your computer? NO! But there are electronic emissions
                      EVERYWHERE! Your car will emit Electronic Beams from the dash,
                      and engine compartment, but these are not harmful either. Radiation
                      from the Sun is more harmful, especially, early morning and later
                      in the day (UV)! Is there a cause for some parents to be concerned
                      and cautious of Video Game Addiction for their MALE children? Yes!
                      However, this caution was given in the NEWS on TV, Radio, and in
                      the newspaper to all Americans and not just to Eckists. If Klemp
                      feels the need to comment on this NEWS item then why doesn't he
                      do this with other current issues? Klemp only speaks out when he
                      needs to get Eckists back in-line and under his control like puppets
                      on a string as he has them do their chicken dance! LOL!

                      ***************************************************************
                      prometheus wrote:
                      >
                      Klemp Tries to Keep ECKists Off the Internet
                      by Using Fear Tactics of Harmful "BEAMS."
                      >
                      The Wisdom Notes- June 2007:


                      HK: "… the INTERNET, with its e-mail,
                      instant messaging, games, RESEARCH
                      GOLD MINES, study courses, and so
                      much more.
                      Many get LOST and then SWALLOWED up
                      in this VIRTUAL universe. In doing so,
                      they LOSE SIGHT of the ECK."


                      >[ME] But don't Eckists have their Inner
                      >Mahanta to Guide them and Protect them,
                      >or is this just more of HK's lip service?


                      HK: "The INTERNET, therefore, can be a GOLDEN
                      window that opens one to UNLIMITED possibilities
                      of information and entertainment. Yet it can reveal
                      a DARK SIDE too."


                      >[ME] Yes, the dark side of anything can show
                      >itself and be a negative factor, especially, for
                      >unsupervised children. However, adults are more
                      >mature and have freedom of choice. Besides, isn't
                      >this a KAL controlled world of tests and challenges
                      >and why Soul is here for spiritual growth?


                      HK: "Once CAUTIONS were aired about radio, comic
                      books, and TV."


                      >[ME] Exactly, so what's your point Mr. Klemp?
                      >Klemp seems to be talking out of both sides of his
                      >mouth on this issue and wants it both ways.
                      >However, this is more of a ploy to confuse Eckists
                      >while creating more fears like with the EMR fear
                      >that he has already established. One has to wonder
                      >what good is the Mahanta if he can't protect Eckists
                      >from the KAL who only "rules" the Lower Worlds.
                      >What happened to the Higher Consciousness of the
                      >Higher Initiations? Klemp repeats this message
                      >of fear in the H.I. Letter!


                      HK: "And still our world spins lazily on.
                      Unfortunately, some people rely on electronic
                      toys to get themselves booted up. They're
                      ADDICTS, though, they REFUSE to face REALITY.
                      Glued to their chairs, they SIT and EAT, GROWING
                      OBESE."


                      >[ME] It seems Klemp is definitely talking about
                      >CHERYL GRUMPYMAN! Maybe he's including his ex-wife,
                      >some ESC staffers and a few RESAs (among others)
                      >too!


                      HK: "This is a WORST-CASE SCENARIO that appears
                      all too often. They prefer to communicate with
                      others online instead of face-to-face."


                      >[ME] Now that's a really stupid and narrow-minded
                      >statement! Klemp is an Idiot! People can't travel those
                      >distances in the physical world of limitation of time
                      >and space. And it's more convenient, cheaper, and
                      >"Green" to communicate via computer. I guess that if
                      >one follows Klemp's distorted logic we shouldn't use
                      >the telephone either! After all, using the phone is not
                      >"face-to-face" and it is an electronic device that is held
                      >very close to the brain and emits EMR! Be afraid… very
                      >afraid! [BTW- Aren't "Worst-Case Scenarios" Negative?
                      >So why is "Z" being Negative, unless, he's KAL!


                      HK: "A DANGER inherent in ANY OUTSIDE ATTRACTION is
                      that a chela finds little time for the Spiritual Exercises
                      of ECK. So what is missing? Quietude."


                      >[ME] So, if this is a problem or a negative with
                      >"ANY outside attraction" why pick on just the "Internet"
                      >with all of the positive benefits it has?! Besides, this
                      >technology is, also, a means of uniting more people
                      >than the Mahanta will ever be able to do! Why are there
                      >people at the ESC (and locally) assigned to Internet
                      >media? See, it's to scare the gullible and fearful from
                      >discovering sites like this.
                      >
                      >HK seems to be inept as an all powerful Mahanta
                      >to influence and control chelas on the Inner Planes
                      >let alone on the outer. Therefore, he resorts to KAListic
                      >methods by using the written word (print media,
                      >Internet), art work, tapes, CD's, DVD's, and the
                      >telephone/fax to get his outer (Lower Plane) message
                      >out. Like other religious fundamentalist leaders Klemp
                      >would love to have civil laws and government control
                      >implemented to control his flock of hens (roosters too)
                      >in that Eck Henhouse.


                      HK: "There must be an OASIS of tranquility, of peace
                      and quiet, for there to be time for spiritual exercises,
                      just plain reading, or even daydreaming. Reading, for
                      example, has the power to open children, youth, and
                      adults new horizons, without the constant bombardment
                      of INVISIBLE ELECTRONIC BEAMS that hammer the body."


                      >[ME] Actually, one can do the S.E. before or after
                      >TV, i-Pod, radio, telephone, computer, golf, tennis,
                      >ocean surfing, snow boarding, intros, shopping, etc.
                      >But, isn't daydreaming kind of Astral?! And, isn't Fear
                      >mongering, for whatever reason, a KAL technique since
                      >Eckists have the Mahanta to "protect" them while non-
                      >Eckists don't! It doesn't take a "chela" to use the off-
                      >switch once in awhile! LOL!


                      HK: "This HAMMERING WEAKENS the Body's Defenses.
                      OVER THE COURSE OF MANY YEARS, an individual will
                      SUCCUMB to ANY NUMBER of ILLNESSES, ALL APPARENTLY
                      WITHOUT CAUSE."


                      >[ME] Klemp is saying that those chelas at the ESC
                      >who work at their computers 8 hours a day, 5 days
                      >a week are also having their bodies hammered and
                      >weakened by these "Invisible Electronic Beams"
                      >and "will succumb to any number of illnesses" and
                      >"all apparently without cause." It would seem that
                      >these ill chelas have a cause for legal action and
                      >compensation against Klemp and the Eckankar
                      >Church for Not protecting them from these harmful
                      >"beams." And, since the Mahanta is the highest
                      >consciousness on the planet his word on this subject
                      >must be heavily weighed by the courts if there is a
                      >Workers Compensation Claim filed with the state,
                      >or other lawsuit claiming supervised neglect of a
                      >"known" hazard.


                      HK: "A quiet time for reading will prove beneficial
                      to one. He can sit at his own rate of reading, stopping
                      now and again to let a point settle in. Again, an exciting
                      story may cause him to race on, to see what will happen
                      next. Reading also allows for daydreaming."


                      >[ME] Actually, people can quietly "read" on the Internet
                      >and at any "rate" or speed! I can even stop and ponder a
                      >point and daydream if I want!!! And, I can read things
                      >that are current to the Now and are, therefore, not yet
                      >(or will ever be) in book form!
                      >
                      >What kind of "Modern" Prophet is Klemp? This
                      >self-created title seems like another oxymoron…
                      >like military intelligence! In truth, Klemp is like
                      >most religious leaders and wants to control his
                      >members by any means possible when using fear,
                      >guilt, and shame… and that carrot! Only with
                      >Eckankar the "carrot" (i.e. Initiation, Higher
                      >Consciousness, Spiritual Freedom, Self-Mastery)
                      >is supposed to be caught and eaten in this lifetime
                      >instead of the next!


                      HK: "And all without the BRUTAL HAMMERING of
                      ELECTRONIC METEORS that shower down upon the
                      Naked, unprotected planet of his Physical being."


                      >[ME] I'll bet HK loved using "naked." What a
                      >visualization! However, does this mean that my
                      >i-Pod and cell phone, telephone, TV, radio, car
                      >electronics, vacuum cleaner, clock radio, etc.
                      >are "bad" too, or is it just our computers and the
                      >Internet?! Why can't the Mahanta protect, at least,
                      >the Higher Initiates?! This is also bad news for
                      >those Internet Eck Book Discussions and sites
                      >like HU-Chat and Chela-Chat, etc. Then again,
                      >most Eckists won't follow HK's nutty advice
                      >anyway! <smile>


                      HK: "People may get lost in a virtual book world
                      too."


                      >[ME] People also "get lost" trying to find substance
                      >from Klemps talks. These spoken words are even
                      >more "virtual" than computer images. Klemp has
                      >to convert his words to print ($$$) years after they
                      >were spoken, or rely on unofficial note taking and
                      >tapes being released (for sale) at the next seminar.
                      >But, for someone who constantly dwells in the past
                      >this is no big deal for Klemp.


                      HK: "Their interests may lie in stories of the past,
                      knowing that history—fact or fiction—matters,
                      for it can teach them about themselves. A well-done
                      history will study characters in depth, BUT with the
                      advantage of objectivity at arm's length. In that way,
                      readers can get beyond the haze that surrounds their
                      own circumstances. So reading is important."


                      >[ME] Actually, Klemp is saying that Only Reading
                      >Books, or print material, is important because the
                      >"Electronic Meteors" of EMR from a computer
                      >will produce a fog or "haze" in one's mind and
                      >this will prevent chelas learning about "themselves."
                      >
                      >Yet, HK has also stated that all thoughts, words,
                      >and books are of the Lower Planes of the mind.
                      >
                      >How does this really affect the Eck chela if the
                      >PR about the Inner/Outer Mahanta is true?! See,
                      >Klemp is proving that all of the crap that Eckists
                      >are told is true or imagine to be true is Not!


                      HK: "However, so is writing, with pen and paper
                      instead of on a computer."


                      >[ME] Klemp is a joke as a Modern Prophet and
                      >as spiritual leader. He's not only stuck in the past,
                      >but he fears the Truth that Eckists might discover
                      >on the Internet. Remember when word processors
                      >came out and what an improvement that was for
                      >writers! No more white-out! And computers are
                      >even better because writers have spell check and
                      >can save huge amounts of material and do their
                      >own publications. One doesn't have to be online,
                      >but according to Klemp being off-line is bad too!
                      >He's such an "expert" Liar isn't he!
                      >
                      >Anyway, there was more to HK's wordy article
                      >intended on scaring Eckists away from the Internet,
                      >[and sites telling the Truth about Eckankar], but
                      >it was redundant and irrelevant so I deleted it.
                      >
                      >Hey HK… Have A Nice Day! I have Just one question,
                      >When you write do you really use an ink pen or a quill?!
                      >
                      Prometheus
                    • prometheus_973
                      Hi Liz, I just had a few comments too about how things really work within the local RESA hierarchy. ... [ME] Yea, I guarantee that no 2nd Initiate is privey to
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jun 27, 2007
                        Hi Liz,
                        I just had a few comments too about how things really
                        work within the local RESA hierarchy.


                        Liz wrote:
                        >
                        > So basically, I would think you would already have all the info you ask for,
                        > if you were that "special" and ran with the pack. Wow, dated 2 HIs....
                        > They must have ran out of fresh meat to get involved with a lower! LOL
                        > Usually most HIs would bother with a lower, let alone the RESAs.... Has
                        > something to do with having more awareness and direct contact with the Elite

                        [ME] Yea, I guarantee that no 2nd Initiate is privey to or fully understands
                        the workings of the RESA/ESC hierarchy because a RESA is their bestest
                        buddy and the 2nd was dating TWO loser H.I.s! LOL! A 2nd knows only
                        what the H.I.s want them to know, and is never one of the Club! LOL!
                        And, I doubt that the details of how initiations were given out
                        (the ESC computer list and verification phone calls) would be shared with a
                        2nd initiate best buddy or even a hot date. There's no need to share this info
                        and, therefore, it wouldn't be. However, if one was present when calls were
                        made and the Lower listened in when there was a discussion about the yea
                        or nay, as to whether one is deserving of that next initiation, then there could
                        be something shared, but I doubt that it would be a complete picture. And,
                        one can't really learn about Eckankar through osmosis, or by being spoon fed,
                        or by riding on someone else's coat tails. However, associating with H.I.s
                        (after they are brought down from their pedestals) will, eventually, show Lowers
                        that there are many many loser H.I.s! This fact, also, shows that Higher
                        Consciousness is NOT connected to these Higher initiations. So, I wonder
                        what the RESA friend had to say in order to convince her 2nd initiate budd
                        to stay in the org... it didn't work too well did it!

                        > So did those HIs have super special techniques? Since they are in the
                        > running to hold the rod.... Ah well maybe I'll not say what I'm really
                        > thinking! Oh hell why not! Getting some from an HI, did that make you
                        > more aware, or were you in it for your own agenda? I knew a few lowers
                        > that thought hanging with the uppers would make them look important,
                        >it was an ego thing mostly. ;-)

                        [ME] Right! Actually, I'm not sure that those H.I.s are in the running to hold
                        the "Rod." LOL! HK once told 4ths to hang out with the H.I.s in order to imitate
                        their behaviours and act "as if." HK should have told them to pay attention to
                        their own consciousness in this Here and Now present reality instead of acting
                        "as if" about anything! I knew one H.I. that followed Klemp's suggestion (4ths to
                        hang with H.I.s) and when she got her 5th she refused to associate with Lowers!

                        Prometheus
                        BTW- Some of us were really "immersed" and for a much longer period of time!



                        -------Original Message-------

                        From: zoey_true

                        ECKANKAR: The Wisdom Notes, June 2007

                        hey, mish. i'm fairly interested in eck events from the past, and in
                        the present. i think it would be quite interesting to know harold's
                        family dynamics.

                        i didn't comment on the wisdom notes because i don't really have a
                        comment.

                        i'm not sure what underlying message hk is trying to convey with that
                        computer stuff. he could be hoping that eckists will remain in the dark
                        if they keep away from the internet.

                        or he could be saying that he understands things on a level the rest of us
                        don't. like, he knows about harmful beams, and the rest of us are clueless.

                        i was only in eckankar 5 years, mish. i was never a higher initiate.

                        but i was as insider as one can be, i suppose, without being a higher initiate.

                        one of my best friends was the RESA, and i dated two hi's. i was one of the
                        club.

                        - i only relate these things to say that i was quite immersed in the whole
                        thing.

                        later, zoey...
                      • prometheus_973
                        From: Eckankar s The Wisdom Notes- June 2007 Klemp: Once cautions were aired about Radio, Comic Books, and TV... Unfortunately, some people [Eckists] rely on
                        Message 11 of 12 , Jun 29, 2007
                          From: Eckankar's The Wisdom Notes- June 2007

                          Klemp: "Once cautions were aired about Radio, Comic
                          Books, and TV... Unfortunately, some people [Eckists]
                          rely on Electronic Toys to get themselves Booted Up.
                          They're ADDICTS, though, They Refuse To Face Reality.
                          Glued to their Chairs, they Sit and Eat, Growing Obese."

                          [ME] Does HU-Chat Cheryl Grumpyman recognize herself here?!

                          Klemp: "This is a Worst-Case Scenario [neg. view] that appears.
                          They prefer to communicate with others Online instead of
                          face-to-face. ...Reading, for example, [books, magazines,
                          newspapers] has the POWER to open Children, Youth, and Adults
                          new horizons, without the Constant Bombardment of INVISIBLE
                          ELECTRONIC BEAMS that Hammer The Body [content is unimportant].
                          This Hammering Weakens the Body's Defenses. Over the course
                          of Many Years, an individual will [always?] Succumb to Any Number
                          of Illnesses, ALL Apparently Without Cause... the Brutal Hammering
                          of ELECTRONIC METEORS that Shower Down [down?] upon the Naked,
                          Unprotected Planet of his Physical being... Their interests may Lie
                          [HK Lies too!] in Stories of the Past [myth], knowing that [Eck] history
                          —fact or FICTION—matters, for it can teach them about themselves.
                          A well-done [ficticious Eck] history will study [fictional] characters
                          [masters] in depth, ... In that way, readers [Lower Initiates] can
                          get beyond the Haze that surrounds their own circumstances
                          [consciousness]. So reading [Eck fiction] is important. However,
                          so is Writing [fiction], With Pen and Paper INSTEAD of On a Computer."

                          [ME] Hmmmm! I wonder if Doug Marman listened to the inner Mahanta
                          and "Wrote" his new [fictional] book on the Myths/Tall Tales behind
                          Eckankar "With Pen and Paper" versus a Computer! I'll bet Doug either
                          couldn't hear or didn't listen to his fake Mahanta and used a Computer!

                          Prometheus
                        • mishmisha9
                          Hi, All! The following comment by Klemp has made me wonder about there being apparently no cause for these effects of these harmful beams. Klemp is saying
                          Message 12 of 12 , Jun 30, 2007
                            Hi, All!

                            The following comment by Klemp has made me wonder
                            about there being apparently no cause for these effects of
                            these "harmful" beams. Klemp is saying there is no identifiable
                            cause for these illnesses, but isn't the true cause according to
                            the eck teachings karma? Isn't that the underlying cause behind
                            all disease according to eckankar dogma? Therefore, why is
                            there a need to point out one specific cause for illnesses when
                            there are thousands if not millions of causes for disease. But
                            doesn't it all come back to karma . . . if one believes in karma
                            using the eckankar perspective, so why is Klemp preaching
                            something different from that? There seems to be a deeper
                            purpose for Klemp's cautions about using the Internet, don't
                            you think? : )

                            Klemp wrote:
                            " . . . the Constant Bombardment of INVISIBLE
                            ELECTRONIC BEAMS that Hammer The Body [content is unimportant].
                            This Hammering Weakens the Body's Defenses. Over the course
                            of Many Years, an individual will Succumb to Any Number
                            of Illnesses, ALL Apparently Without Cause..."

                            ###########################################

                            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                            "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > From: Eckankar's The Wisdom Notes- June 2007
                            >
                            > Klemp: "Once cautions were aired about Radio, Comic
                            > Books, and TV... Unfortunately, some people [Eckists]
                            > rely on Electronic Toys to get themselves Booted Up.
                            > They're ADDICTS, though, They Refuse To Face Reality.
                            > Glued to their Chairs, they Sit and Eat, Growing Obese."
                            >
                            > [ME] Does HU-Chat Cheryl Grumpyman recognize herself here?!
                            >
                            > Klemp: "This is a Worst-Case Scenario [neg. view] that appears.
                            > They prefer to communicate with others Online instead of
                            > face-to-face. ...Reading, for example, [books, magazines,
                            > newspapers] has the POWER to open Children, Youth, and Adults
                            > new horizons, without the Brutal Hammering
                            > of ELECTRONIC METEORS that Shower Down [down?] upon the Naked,
                            > Unprotected Planet of his Physical being... Their interests may Lie
                            > [HK Lies too!] in Stories of the Past [myth], knowing that [Eck] history
                            > —fact or FICTION—matters, for it can teach them about themselves.
                            > A well-done [ficticious Eck] history will study [fictional] characters
                            > [masters] in depth, ... In that way, readers [Lower Initiates] can
                            > get beyond the Haze that surrounds their own circumstances
                            > [consciousness]. So reading [Eck fiction] is important. However,
                            > so is Writing [fiction], With Pen and Paper INSTEAD of On a Computer."
                            >
                            > [ME] Hmmmm! I wonder if Doug Marman listened to the inner Mahanta
                            > and "Wrote" his new [fictional] book on the Myths/Tall Tales behind
                            > Eckankar "With Pen and Paper" versus a Computer! I'll bet Doug either
                            > couldn't hear or didn't listen to his fake Mahanta and used a Computer!
                            >
                            > Prometheus
                            >
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