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Re: Another Look

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  • tee green
    Hi Prometheus, Mish & Everyone, I ve been reading these posts for a couple of years and I am grateful for everyone s comments and rational questions.
    Message 1 of 6 , Apr 29, 2007
      Hi Prometheus, Mish & Everyone,

           I've been reading these posts for a couple of years and I am grateful for everyone's comments and rational questions. Prometheus, Mish, you both do a great job of pointing out the nonsense that H tries to pass off as miracles or spiritual enlightenment.
           I, myself, don't feel the need to replace the cult with anything other than the personal freedom that I have to pursue philosophy or theories about quantum physics. The main point with me being the freedom to question everything instead of blind, unquestioning faith. Religionists/Cultists like to promote the idea that such faith is a trait of the superior, more elevated "soul". I'm of the opposite opinion- I see them ranging from the sincerely naive to the raving lunatic. As far as I can see, the old religions are just the products of bronze age tribal mythology and the new ones can be vehicles for opportunists.
           My question to you all is how do religious or cult members come to believe such fantasy? I understand that they are conditioned from childhood to accept their "faith" but again, how does one hang on to the fantasy. Surely education and exposure to other faiths and ideas would inspire questions, doubts? Repeated failure of the belief system or messiah to deliver on promises would be another. I can only conclude that people choose their god and beliefs according to their own personal preferences. They choose what they like rather than what is true. What we like isn't always good for us and can actually harm us. Religions and gods can be altered to suit the needs of the clergy and/or followers. What does this say about the people? When people pick and choose their faith based on preference rather than truth-what real value or function does this serve?
           I think that a religious teaching should be able to stand up under examination and its' claims should be able to be tested. After all, these are the standards to which science is held. Shouldn't some all powerful god or ultimate teaching be able to withstand the same? Why doesn't H debate others on panels and try to prove that the cult's teachings are the absolute. After all, he's a man of gigantic intellect as well as being a god. ; ) I remember a scene in the movie,
      The Exorcist, where Fr. Merrick challenged the supposed demon by asking it to repeat one of the physical activities, it think it was causing the drawers to open. The supposed demon could not, but claimed that it would be a "vulgar display of power". Great excuse, huh, and humble! The psychiatrist priest, Fr. Damian, was not convinced that it was a real possession because it claimed to be the devil himself, not just any demon. To the character, such a grandiose claim indicated delusion. A sensational, controversial movie, to be sure, but I like that way that they questioned the possession and examined the mind and body first for cause. Of course the movie was meant to be a horror film and did deliver but I hope that you can seen my point. IMHO, only a disturbed person claims to be a god or a devil.
           Prometheus, (or anybody who cares to comment), maybe it's just me, but don't the ideas promoted by the cult of reincarnation and astral hell or heaven contradict one another? After all, if one has to reincarnate until one unfolds to such a high level then why would a heaven or hell be necessary? Also, how can all religions lead to god? If the godman is so evolved and powerful, surely he could "outdo" the performance of such a low level master such as Christ? If the nasty god of the bible was able to punish and reward and, as we all remember, that god is so beneath the godman, then why is H not able to affect the world in a great and powerful way? Why can't he help anyone? Why can't he stop the evil? Would it be "too vulgar of a display of power"?  Funny how the other gods seem to be AWOL as well. He looks to be to be just another false god with false claims.         


      Have a great week,

      Kaye


      Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
      Check out new cars at Yahoo! Autos.
    • prometheus_973
      Hi Kaye, I got to thinking about what makes a good cult leader and why. I really think that Twitchell and his mentor L. Ron Hubbard were both paranoid
      Message 2 of 6 , Apr 29, 2007
        Hi Kaye,
        I got to thinking about what makes a good cult leader
        and why. I really think that Twitchell and his mentor L.
        Ron Hubbard were both paranoid schizophrenics and
        narcissists and that Klemp is as well. This is why they are
        arrogant, fearful and liars. They need to be in control and
        cannot stand to be challenged. This is, also, why they create(d)
        or imagine(d) themselves to be the highest of authorities and,
        therefore, need(ed) to threaten those who will question the
        logic of their dogma, or will not readily submit to their
        delusions and con.

        As for us, the followers, we are conditioned to follow and to
        submit to authority. Every society is designed in this manner.
        We enjoy others making decisions for us when things are going
        well... for our groups or as individuals. We're generally passive
        individuals and tend to avoid conflict. Usually we operate under
        rationalizations and we don't really want to know the whole truth
        about our politicians, the corporations we work for, our governments
        our religions, and those we hold in high esteem. We don't really
        want to know because we feel unimpowered and are usually without
        inside knowledge or means to prove our case even if we had the
        desire to do so. But, why worry... be happy! Do what you have to do
        and forget about it! Anyway, people want to believe the best and they
        seek THE EASY WAY. And isn't ECKANKAR supposed to be the HIGHEST
        and the MOST DIRECT spiritual path there is! That's pretty good
        advertising isn't it!

        But, we understand why we are the way we are, and that's why we share
        the truth about ECKANKAR here because we do have inside knowledge
        (we're whistle blowers) and this site provides the means!

        Prometheus



        xekweed wrote:

        [snip]

        My question to you all is how do religious or cult members come to believe such fantasy? I
        understand that they are conditioned from childhood to accept their "faith" but again, how
        does one hang on to the fantasy. Surely education and exposure to other faiths and ideas
        would inspire questions, doubts? Repeated failure of the belief system or messiah to
        deliver on promises would be another. I can only conclude that people choose their god
        and beliefs according to their own personal preferences. They choose what they like rather
        than what is true. What we like isn't always good for us and can actually harm us. Religions
        and gods can be altered to suit the needs of the clergy and/or followers. What does this
        say about the people? When people pick and choose their faith based on preference rather
        than truth-what real value or function does this serve?
      • ctecvie
        Hello Kaye and all, ... grateful for everyone s comments and rational questions. Prometheus, Mish, you both do a great job of pointing out the nonsense that H
        Message 3 of 6 , Apr 30, 2007
          Hello Kaye and all,

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, tee green
          <xekweed@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Prometheus, Mish & Everyone,
          >
          > I've been reading these posts for a couple of years and I am
          grateful for everyone's comments and rational questions. Prometheus,
          Mish, you both do a great job of pointing out the nonsense that H
          tries to pass off as miracles or spiritual enlightenment.

          *** Yes indeed! So thank you Prometheus and Mish! :-) It is really
          good to come here and read the analyses and contributions.


          > I, myself, don't feel the need to replace the cult with
          anything other than the personal freedom that I have to pursue
          philosophy or theories about quantum physics.

          *** This is what I like so much, too. That I have the freedom to
          choose and that it is up to me what I choose, if anything. I feel
          free to make my own errors, too - trying out things and letting them
          go. Nobody there to "admonish" me about how I should be! No more
          outer "urge" about what I should believe!

          The main point with me being the freedom to question everything
          instead of blind, unquestioning faith. Religionists/Cultists like to
          promote the idea that such faith is a trait of the superior, more
          elevated "soul". I'm of the opposite opinion- I see them ranging from
          the sincerely naive to the raving lunatic. As far as I can see, the
          old religions are just the products of bronze age tribal mythology
          and the new ones can be vehicles for opportunists.

          *** I feel that religions just hold us back! There is certainly a
          time where we need it, otherwise we wouldn't choose one or more of
          them. The thing is, that religons like eckankar force us to stay long
          after the point where we wouldn't need it any longer. They live from
          the members, so they have to have tactics to make them stay - or the
          organization wouldn't be able to exist any longer, and all the power
          of the "powers-that-be" would be lost. And this, of course, cannot
          be. So eckankar has this cute little tactics to squirm itself into
          the daily lives of their chelas so that they think they can't live
          without the master and godman who tells them how they should live!

          > My question to you all is how do religious or cult members
          come to believe such fantasy? I understand that they are conditioned
          from childhood to accept their "faith" but again, how does one hang
          on to the fantasy. Surely education and exposure to other faiths and
          ideas would inspire questions, doubts?

          *** I think this depends on which type of person they are. Some are
          clearly conditioned from childhood as you say. But one can shed this
          condition I think. It's just that one has to become aware of the
          brainwashing tactics. Once this is so, the tacttics won't work any
          longer. eckankar is in horror of that, of course, that's why former
          members are discredited - eckankar can't do otherwise!

          *** I think that for many eckists, it is essential to belong - how
          could they cope with the loss of dear friends if they leave? So they
          prefer to stick their heads into the sand. They don't even want to
          see the plagiary of PT! Not even if it is right under their nose!

          *** Others, of course, have a status to lose - resa, esa, h.i.? It is
          so good to be looked upon, to be a "higher being" in the eyes of
          lowly chelas! There is much power involved!

          Repeated failure of the belief system or messiah to deliver on
          promises would be another. I can only conclude that people choose
          their god and beliefs according to their own personal preferences.
          They choose what they like rather than what is true. What we like
          isn't always good for us and can actually harm us. Religions and gods
          can be altered to suit the needs of the clergy and/or followers. What
          does this say about the people? When people pick and choose their
          faith based on preference rather than truth-what real value or
          function does this serve?

          *** Well, for me it says that there is a lot of fear - from the
          leaders to lose their goodies and from the chelas to be cut off from
          a good afterlife! eckankar does the same thing than the Catholic
          church does - they don't live life here but they prepare for the life
          afterwards? This doesn't make much sense, does it, since we are here
          for a reason. I think the reason is to learn how to live in the here
          and now, which is not a small task at all! In fact, it fills my life,
          and that without any religion!

          > I think that a religious teaching should be able to stand up
          under examination and its' claims should be able to be tested. After
          all, these are the standards to which science is held. Shouldn't some
          all powerful god or ultimate teaching be able to withstand the same?
          Why doesn't H debate others on panels and try to prove that the
          cult's teachings are the absolute. After all, he's a man of gigantic
          intellect as well as being a god. ; )

          *** Oh, beware! eckankar could never stand up to what they are
          saying! That's why PT and HK said/say that it's only "astral" if
          somebody can work miracles! They say that eck masters don't prove
          their abilities - they just don't need to! Because it's "low plane"!
          LOL! In fact, they can't do it - it's as simple as that. They can't
          even soul travel to visit somebody and come back and report which
          clothes the person was wearing! Well, that's all to "astral" isn't
          it! Astral is a gross word just as the "mind"! Don't ask questions -
          they know why they demonize the mind and the intellect! Intelligent
          people ask questions, and that's the last thing eckankar needs!

          Ingrid

          I remember a scene in the movie,
          > The Exorcist, where Fr. Merrick challenged the supposed demon by
          asking it to repeat one of the physical activities, it think it was
          causing the drawers to open. The supposed demon could not, but
          claimed that it would be a "vulgar display of power". Great excuse,
          huh, and humble! The psychiatrist priest, Fr. Damian, was not
          convinced that it was a real possession because it claimed to be the
          devil himself, not just any demon. To the character, such a grandiose
          claim indicated delusion. A sensational, controversial movie, to be
          sure, but I like that way that they questioned the possession and
          examined the mind and body first for cause. Of course the movie was
          meant to be a horror film and did deliver but I hope that you can
          seen my point. IMHO, only a disturbed person claims to be a god or a
          devil.
          > Prometheus, (or anybody who cares to comment), maybe it's just
          me, but don't the ideas promoted by the cult of reincarnation and
          astral hell or heaven contradict one another? After all, if one has
          to reincarnate until one unfolds to such a high level then why would
          a heaven or hell be necessary? Also, how can all religions lead to
          god? If the godman is so evolved and powerful, surely he
          could "outdo" the performance of such a low level master such as
          Christ? If the nasty god of the bible was able to punish and reward
          and, as we all remember, that god is so beneath the godman, then why
          is H not able to affect the world in a great and powerful way? Why
          can't he help anyone? Why can't he stop the evil? Would it be "too
          vulgar of a display of power"? Funny how the other gods seem to be
          AWOL as well. He looks to be to be just another false god with false
          claims.
          >
          >
          > Have a great week,
          >
          > Kaye
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
          > Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
          >
        • prometheus_973
          Hello Kaye and Ingrid, I m really enjoying this discussion and the sharing of our experiences and insights. I d like to share more as well. Ingrid wrote: Hello
          Message 4 of 6 , Apr 30, 2007
            Hello Kaye and Ingrid,
            I'm really enjoying this discussion and the sharing
            of our experiences and insights. I'd like to share
            more as well.


            Ingrid wrote:

            Hello Kaye and all,
            [snip]
            Kaye: I, myself, don't feel the need to replace the cult with
            > anything other than the personal freedom that I have to pursue
            > philosophy or theories about quantum physics.
            >
            > *** This is what I like so much, too. That I have the freedom to
            > choose and that it is up to me what I choose, if anything. I feel
            > free to make my own errors, too - trying out things and letting them
            > go. Nobody there to "admonish" me about how I should be! No more
            > outer "urge" about what I should believe!

            [P] Yes, I agree with both of you! The Freedom experienced "after"
            ECKANKAR has been incredible! However, it had been difficult (for me)
            to break away cleanly and completely from the Co-dependency of the
            Mahanta and stand on my own as Soul. As most long-time ECKists know
            ECKANKAR "works" when one can surrender and submit completely,
            as well as, emotionally & mentally. Of course, this is how brain-washing
            and hypnosis are done! And, I too, Do Not need replacement theories
            or philosophies or religions to cling to. I can incorporate or reject the
            things I choose. ECKists who think they can do the same Aren't really
            "true" ECKists... they are only continuing to fool themselves just as the
            other "true blue" ECKists are!

            Kaye: The main point with me being the freedom to question everything
            > instead of blind, unquestioning faith. Religionists/Cultists like to
            > promote the idea that such faith is a trait of the superior, more
            > elevated "soul". I'm of the opposite opinion- I see them ranging from
            > the sincerely naive to the raving lunatic. As far as I can see, the
            > old religions are just the products of bronze age tribal mythology
            > and the new ones can be vehicles for opportunists.
            >
            > *** I feel that religions just hold us back! There is certainly a
            > time where we need it, otherwise we wouldn't choose one or more of
            > them. The thing is, that religons like eckankar force us to stay long
            > after the point where we wouldn't need it any longer. They live from
            > the members, so they have to have tactics to make them stay - or the
            > organization wouldn't be able to exist any longer, and all the power
            > of the "powers-that-be" would be lost. And this, of course, cannot
            > be. So eckankar has this cute little tactics to squirm itself into
            > the daily lives of their chelas so that they think they can't live
            > without the master and godman who tells them how they should live!

            [P] One should ponder the purpose of religion when looking at both
            the older religions, and their histories, and when looking at the New Age
            religions like ECKANKAR. What purpose do they serve and why? Even the
            New Age religions like ECKANKAR serve the same NEED (requirements)
            for individuals that the orthodox religions do! It seems that most people
            NEED a GROUP BELIEF! The irony is that these religious groups and sects
            all think that they are unique and have the Highest teachings/leaders or
            the inside track to God/Truth. They all have testamonials by their believers
            and "miracles" too!

            Kaye: My question to you all is how do religious or cult members
            > come to believe such fantasy? I understand that they are conditioned
            > from childhood to accept their "faith" but again, how does one hang
            > on to the fantasy. Surely education and exposure to other faiths and
            > ideas would inspire questions, doubts?
            >
            > *** I think this depends on which type of person they are. Some are
            > clearly conditioned from childhood as you say. But one can shed this
            > condition I think. It's just that one has to become aware of the
            > brainwashing tactics. Once this is so, the tacttics won't work any
            > longer. eckankar is in horror of that, of course, that's why former
            > members are discredited - eckankar can't do otherwise!

            [P] Actually, (from my experience) we are not usually exposed to all that
            many other religions when we are younger or even later in life. I had no
            knowledge of Ruhani Satsang or Radhasoami until Ford mentioned them
            in Confessions of a God Seeker! I had some knowledge of a few other
            religions and sects before that, but had no idea that these two religions
            were mirror images of ECKANKAR with a Twitchell twist!

            > *** I think that for many eckists, it is essential to belong - how
            > could they cope with the loss of dear friends if they leave? So they
            > prefer to stick their heads into the sand. They don't even want to
            > see the plagiary of PT! Not even if it is right under their nose!
            >
            > *** Others, of course, have a status to lose - resa, esa, h.i.? It is
            > so good to be looked upon, to be a "higher being" in the eyes of
            > lowly chelas! There is much power involved!

            [P] Many people have the NEED to belong to something. We are social
            people/animals. However, any religion is a limiting group belief/activity.
            How can so many different people share the same Initiation Circles with
            those who are not as "advanced" or knowledgable! It doesn't make sense,
            especially, when one looks at the dogma/teachings that outline the
            requirements of each preceding Circle! Then, again, look at the history
            and purposes of the "initiations" from other groups... like the Masons!

            Kaye: Repeated failure of the belief system or messiah to deliver on
            > promises would be another. I can only conclude that people choose
            > their god and beliefs according to their own personal preferences.
            > They choose what they like rather than what is true. What we like
            > isn't always good for us and can actually harm us. Religions and gods
            > can be altered to suit the needs of the clergy and/or followers. What
            > does this say about the people? When people pick and choose their
            > faith based on preference rather than truth-what real value or
            > function does this serve?
            >
            > *** Well, for me it says that there is a lot of fear - from the
            > leaders to lose their goodies and from the chelas to be cut off from
            > a good afterlife! eckankar does the same thing than the Catholic
            > church does - they don't live life here but they prepare for the life
            > afterwards? This doesn't make much sense, does it, since we are here
            > for a reason. I think the reason is to learn how to live in the here
            > and now, which is not a small task at all! In fact, it fills my life,
            > and that without any religion!

            [P] To me, it seems that people choose a religion based upon the "group"
            they associate themselves to be more compatable with. People then adjust
            their beliefs to fit the religion when it should be vice versa. However, most
            seekers are inexperienced with various religious teachings and are unsure of
            their own identity as Soul. People, therefore, look to religious and spiritual
            "experts" in order to become enlightened about God and Spirit. At some point,
            however, the seeker needs to move on and establish their own personal
            relationship/religion with Spirit without the middleman (Mahanta) or the group's
            religious teachings/limitations.

            Kaye: I think that a religious teaching should be able to stand up
            > under examination and its' claims should be able to be tested. After
            > all, these are the standards to which science is held. Shouldn't some
            > all powerful god or ultimate teaching be able to withstand the same?
            > Why doesn't H debate others on panels and try to prove that the
            > cult's teachings are the absolute. After all, he's a man of gigantic
            > intellect as well as being a god. ; )
            >
            > *** Oh, beware! eckankar could never stand up to what they are
            > saying! That's why PT and HK said/say that it's only "astral" if
            > somebody can work miracles! They say that eck masters don't prove
            > their abilities - they just don't need to! Because it's "low plane"!
            > LOL! In fact, they can't do it - it's as simple as that. They can't
            > even soul travel to visit somebody and come back and report which
            > clothes the person was wearing! Well, that's all to "astral" isn't
            > it! Astral is a gross word just as the "mind"! Don't ask questions -
            > they know why they demonize the mind and the intellect! Intelligent
            > people ask questions, and that's the last thing eckankar needs!

            [P] It is interesting that Klemp has recently said that ALL Words, Thoughts,
            Symbols, etc. are Astral or Mental Plane. The Shariyat also states that
            poetry, art, and music are Kal works of the Astral Plane. Yet HK, in
            his 2007 ESS talk, recommended that ECKists read Rumi before contemplation!
            ECKANKAR pretends to be a "Higher" spiritual teaching, but still uses
            the Astral Tisra Til Chakra and "charged" Mental Plane words like HU.
            How can even "HU" be of the higher God Worlds when ALL words like HU
            are of the Mental Plane! Yet, ECKists will deny these contradictions or close
            their eyes to them and rationalize that these are "paradoxes" or exceptions
            to the Lower Plane rules/laws. The truth is ECKists can't and don't want to
            let go! Many ECKists after years and years of study have only become more
            Co-dependent and less free than before ECKANKAR! ECK too has taken on
            a different look with Klemp in charge! The compiled teachings of Twitchell
            have digressed further with Klemp's introduction of Christian techniques,
            Bible quotes, and methods. Yes, ECKANKAR promises Spiritual Freedom
            but delivers the opposite... ECKists are forever the servants with only hopes
            of becoming more when this life has ended. Sounds familar doesn't it. Or,
            one can "imagine" they have it all now! Of couse if that was true then why
            do they still need ECKANKAR and the LEM/Mahanta!

            Prometheus
          • mishmisha9
            Hi, Kaye and All! The friend who sent the religious memes article, also, forwarded the article by Owen Waters on Infinite Possibilities that I have posted
            Message 5 of 6 , Apr 30, 2007
              Hi, Kaye and All!
              The friend who sent the religious memes article, also, forwarded
              the article by Owen Waters on Infinite Possibilities that I have posted
              below. Since Kaye mentioned an interest in exploring Quantum physics
              I thought that some of you would find the article interesting. The
              link to the book list will reveal a list of books many of us are already
              familiar, with perhaps some new suggestions.

              In the response I attempted to send to my friend this morning (my email
              kept bouncing back--message said I am blocked??), I kind of addressed
              Kaye's question as to why people fall for the cult/religious cons. It
              basically comes down to fear and/or laziness. Even Paul Twitchell was
              lazy in that he plagiarized almost verbatim the writings of others in
              order to create his "infinite possibility" of a new age religion/con! : )

              I agree that one needs to look for possibilities beyond the immediate
              and often limited ones. I have had occasions for sure where I had to go
              beyond those limits--in fact, it should be incorporated more for the best
              results. If one is set in conventional circumstances (as most of us are in
              the confines of our societies) and allow ourselves to manipulated and
              constrained by the simpler and no-thinking type choices that others limit
              us with, well, we surely will not advance--we will be stuck. And very likely
              unhappily stuck. I think that people who spend so much time following
              religious dogma have fears of going beyond their perceived limits and
              definitely fears of the unknown. Also, many people are just plain lazy to
              exert to another thought processing level. Keeping it simple and letting
              others make decisions and shape their lives for them is the lazy man's
              approach to spirituality. However, even, with these greater possibilities
              (and I believe that they are there in every situation), I have to question
              that they are infinite. I think that while it may seem there are infinite
              possibilities, there is a limit to the possible choices--that there comes
              a point where one has to say enough! Going beyond the finite might be
              what becomes a delusional consciousness which then would defeat all the
              other levels of consciousness??? Perhaps?? I see greater possibilities and
              that we should always be looking for them, but at the same time, there is
              a finite limit as well. Going beyond our "normal" and perhaps complacent
              thinking skills--to look for the greater possibilities--is certainly the path
              to higher consciousness and awareness. I agree that it is fascinating to
              explore all the possibilities and to stretch our imagination in order to
              create that which we desire.

              Here's the article:

              Infinite Possibilities
              by Owen Waters

              Quantum physics is more than a century old; yet, people's eyes
              still glaze over when they first hear of its strange ways. In
              the sub-microscopic world of elementary energy particles, the
              universe acts very differently from the one we know in our
              physical world.

              As it turns out, the quantum world actually reveals the true
              nature of the universe, while what we see on the physical level
              is a carefully-created illusion. For example, at any point in
              time, life presents an array of infinite possibilities. When
              you make a decision as to what to do next, then - only then -
              does your immediate future become a reality instead of just
              another possibility. Then, and only then, does the next step in
              your history get written.

              In quantum physics, energetic particles, such as photons of
              light, only become particles of energy when you focus your
              attention upon them. Until then, they remain as fields of
              influence which radiate waves of energy, not particles. These
              waves of energy, rather than traveling as a particle directly
              from A to B, spread out as waves that explore all possible
              paths before them.

              Energy particles live in a world of possibilities, waiting to
              be made manifest by a conscious decision from someone,
              somewhere. In a conscious universe, any form of attention, even
              that of a passive observer, manifests actual particles from the
              waves of potential.

              As a human, you were born to manifest a life from infinite
              possibilities. At each step along the way, you create history
              by deciding which possibility to explore and working your way
              through that action. You choose and create the experience from
              the potential and make it manifest.

              The quantum world gets even stranger when you find that, in
              its natural, unmanifested state, it is free from the
              constraints of time and space. Electrons routinely affect their
              own future, and even their own past. Quantum physicists even
              had to include "negative time" (traveling into the past) in
              their equations in order to include the time travel which is
              exhibited at the quantum level.

              Now, if the quantum world is the real world, the one from
              which our stable reality is constructed, then what does this
              mean for our possibilities? It certainly means that we have
              infinite choices for the future. The burning question is, how
              will the different choices turn out?

              People in research projects have used hypnosis to access
              deeper states of consciousness. In these deeper states of
              awareness, they have examined their own future possibilities
              based on their present-day options. The amazing thing is that
              these future paths are just as real to the exploring
              consciousness as the person's daily reality. It's as though all
              paths already exist, quantum physics-style, as an array of
              possibilities that are very real, just not yet manifested.

              For example, in hypnotherapist Brian Weiss's book, "Same Soul,
              Many Bodies," a patient who was convinced that suicide was his
              only real option was progressed - moved forward in time - to
              see how his suicide would turn out. He expected to find that
              the suicide would provide the desired relief from his crushing
              business problems. Instead, he saw how much grief he would have
              caused his wife and children. Worse still, he saw that his
              family members would take the blame for his death upon
              themselves, feeling that they should have somehow helped him
              and prevented such a tragedy.

              Then, he was progressed into a future where he had decided
              against suicide and, instead, faced up to his crisis of
              personal failure. Instead of being shunned by his family and
              friends, as he had expected, he saw them helping him to work
              through the crisis and recover his standing in the business
              world. As his consciousness moved through this alternative
              life, he saw the effects of following the sense of newfound joy
              that he had allowed into his life. In the light of such
              possibilities, his intended suicide was no longer a viable
              option and he chose the path towards joy.

              I find it fascinating that alternate futures exist in such
              detail, in such vivid reality, for each person. Not only do
              they exist as possibilities, they seem as real as if the person
              had already lived them. Those who view these alternate futures
              are not making them up. In the above example, the person
              considering suicide was so depressed about himself that he
              thought his family would say "Good riddance" when he was gone;
              he could not have made up the scenes of the alternative futures
              that he saw under hypnosis. Instead, people who see these
              future alternatives often learn from situations that they could
              never have imagined.

              In a universe created by Infinite Being, each one of us has,
              by design, infinite possibilities. The question is, what could
              you do today that will make your tomorrow even better than it
              would have been? Following your innermost joy means that you
              are using this inbuilt compass that points unfailingly towards
              greater fulfillment in life.

              You can also gain inspiration by discovering some of today's
              best books on spirituality. You'll find Brian Weiss's
              fascinating book and a careful selection of other outstanding
              modern spiritual classics on our Recommended Books page at:

              http://www.infinitebeing.com/reading.htm

              AOL users: <a href="http://www.infinitebeing.com/reading.htm">
              Click here for discovery.</a>



              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, tee green
              <xekweed@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Prometheus, Mish & Everyone,
              >
              > I've been reading these posts for a couple of years and I am grateful
              for everyone's comments and rational questions. Prometheus, Mish, you
              both do a great job of pointing out the nonsense that H tries to pass off
              as miracles or spiritual enlightenment.
              > I, myself, don't feel the need to replace the cult with anything other
              than the personal freedom that I have to pursue philosophy or theories
              about quantum physics. The main point with me being the freedom to
              question everything instead of blind, unquestioning faith. Religionists/Cultists
              like to promote the idea that such faith is a trait of the superior, more
              elevated "soul". I'm of the opposite opinion- I see them ranging from the
              sincerely naive to the raving lunatic. As far as I can see, the old religions are
              just the products of bronze age tribal mythology and the new ones can be
              vehicles for opportunists.
              > My question to you all is how do religious or cult members come to
              believe such fantasy? I understand that they are conditioned from childhood
              to accept their "faith" but again, how does one hang on to the fantasy. Surely
              education and exposure to other faiths and ideas would inspire questions,
              doubts? Repeated failure of the belief system or messiah to deliver on promises
              would be another. I can only conclude that people choose their god and beliefs
              according to their own personal preferences. They choose what they like rather
              than what is true. What we like isn't always good for us and can actually harm
              us. Religions and gods can be altered to suit the needs of the clergy and/or
              followers. What does this say about the people? When people pick and choose
              their faith based on preference rather than truth-what real value or function
              does this serve?
              > I think that a religious teaching should be able to stand up under
              examination and its' claims should be able to be tested. After all, these are
              the standards to which science is held. Shouldn't some all powerful god or
              ultimate teaching be able to withstand the same? Why doesn't H debate others
              on panels and try to prove that the cult's teachings are the absolute. After all,
              he's a man of gigantic intellect as well as being a god. ; ) I remember a scene
              in the movie,
              > The Exorcist, where Fr. Merrick challenged the supposed demon by asking
              it to repeat one of the physical activities, it think it was causing the drawers
              to open. The supposed demon could not, but claimed that it would be a "vulgar
              display of power". Great excuse, huh, and humble! The psychiatrist priest, Fr.
              Damian, was not convinced that it was a real possession because it claimed to
              be the devil himself, not just any demon. To the character, such a grandiose
              claim indicated delusion. A sensational, controversial movie, to be sure, but I
              like that way that they questioned the possession and examined the mind and
              body first for cause. Of course the movie was meant to be a horror film and did
              deliver but I hope that you can seen my point. IMHO, only a disturbed person
              claims to be a god or a devil.
              > Prometheus, (or anybody who cares to comment), maybe it's just me, but
              don't the ideas promoted by the cult of reincarnation and astral hell or heaven
              contradict one another? After all, if one has to reincarnate until one unfolds to
              such a high level then why would a heaven or hell be necessary? Also, how can
              all religions lead to god? If the godman is so evolved and powerful, surely he
              could "outdo" the performance of such a low level master such as Christ? If the
              nasty god of the bible was able to punish and reward and, as we all remember,
              that god is so beneath the godman, then why is H not able to affect the world
              in a great and powerful way? Why can't he help anyone? Why can't he stop the
              evil? Would it be "too vulgar of a display of power"? Funny how the other gods
              seem to be AWOL as well. He looks to be to be just another false god with false
              claims.
              >
              >
              > Have a great week,
              >
              > Kaye
              >
            • prometheus_973
              Hi Mish, This article reminds me of those spiritual paths I explored prior to ECKANKAR. Even the quantum mechanics/world stuff and spiritual metaphysics and
              Message 6 of 6 , Apr 30, 2007
                Hi Mish,
                This article reminds me of those spiritual paths I
                explored prior to ECKANKAR. Even the quantum
                mechanics/world stuff and spiritual metaphysics
                and the hypnosis of past/future life regressions, etc.

                It's interesting to a degree, but also subjective.
                We certainly have difficulty experiencing the things
                beyond our senses that are still measurable by
                scientific methods. As humans our eyes and ears
                and minds have limited ranges. Therefore, it leads
                me to believe that almost everything is finite. There
                are not the infinite possibilities as some people would
                think... there just aren't methods to measure or to
                calculate them, or to even know what they are or know
                they even exist.

                It could be that eventually the mind's intellectual powers
                will be enhanced through science and, therfore, the other
                faculties of the mind will be enhanced as well. Until then
                people will seek the "Holy Grail" and attempt to become
                One with All That Is (or whatever) by contemplating, meditating,
                using "charged" words, dreaming, visualizing and doing
                everything they can to unlock the mysteries of eternal life
                as Soul while hoping for an even greater expansion of
                consciousness after this life.

                Those that don't have any success with these techniques
                will have to rely upon the promises of others to "help" them,
                and to be reassured by testimonials of true believers and pseudo-
                masters.

                As I said before... it's subjective and individual. However, what
                worked for others like Jesus or Buddha didn't work as well for
                their deciples. Maybe it didn't work for them because they remained
                "followers." One must take charge of their own life and become
                a Master. This was the true message... that everyone should
                and can become their own true Master! When? One might ask.
                Is time even relevant? Everything, basically, has a life cycle and
                these cycles overlap with the cycles of other people and things
                during their cycles.

                It's all really just a continual consciousness of life that only has
                real meaning in our relationships with others. Therefore, our
                relationships with others which includes our attitudes (feelings),
                our thoughts, our actions and our reactions with one another and
                with Self is, as I see it, the real key to Our spiritual existance/
                experience.

                Prometheus


                mish wrote:
                >
                > Hi, Kaye and All!
                > The friend who sent the religious memes article, also, forwarded
                > the article by Owen Waters on Infinite Possibilities that I have posted
                > below. Since Kaye mentioned an interest in exploring Quantum physics
                > I thought that some of you would find the article interesting. The
                > link to the book list will reveal a list of books many of us are already
                > familiar, with perhaps some new suggestions.
                > Here's the article:

                [snip]

                Infinite Possibilities
                by Owen Waters
                >
                > Quantum physics is more than a century old; yet, people's eyes
                > still glaze over when they first hear of its strange ways. In
                > the sub-microscopic world of elementary energy particles, the
                > universe acts very differently from the one we know in our
                > physical world.
                >
                > As it turns out, the quantum world actually reveals the true
                > nature of the universe, while what we see on the physical level
                > is a carefully-created illusion. For example, at any point in
                > time, life presents an array of infinite possibilities. When
                > you make a decision as to what to do next, then - only then -
                > does your immediate future become a reality instead of just
                > another possibility. Then, and only then, does the next step in
                > your history get written.
                >
                > In quantum physics, energetic particles, such as photons of
                > light, only become particles of energy when you focus your
                > attention upon them. Until then, they remain as fields of
                > influence which radiate waves of energy, not particles. These
                > waves of energy, rather than traveling as a particle directly
                > from A to B, spread out as waves that explore all possible
                > paths before them.
                >
                > Energy particles live in a world of possibilities, waiting to
                > be made manifest by a conscious decision from someone,
                > somewhere. In a conscious universe, any form of attention, even
                > that of a passive observer, manifests actual particles from the
                > waves of potential.
                >
                > As a human, you were born to manifest a life from infinite
                > possibilities. At each step along the way, you create history
                > by deciding which possibility to explore and working your way
                > through that action. You choose and create the experience from
                > the potential and make it manifest.
                >
                > The quantum world gets even stranger when you find that, in
                > its natural, unmanifested state, it is free from the
                > constraints of time and space. Electrons routinely affect their
                > own future, and even their own past. Quantum physicists even
                > had to include "negative time" (traveling into the past) in
                > their equations in order to include the time travel which is
                > exhibited at the quantum level.
                >
                > Now, if the quantum world is the real world, the one from
                > which our stable reality is constructed, then what does this
                > mean for our possibilities? It certainly means that we have
                > infinite choices for the future. The burning question is, how
                > will the different choices turn out?
                >
                > People in research projects have used hypnosis to access
                > deeper states of consciousness. In these deeper states of
                > awareness, they have examined their own future possibilities
                > based on their present-day options. The amazing thing is that
                > these future paths are just as real to the exploring
                > consciousness as the person's daily reality. It's as though all
                > paths already exist, quantum physics-style, as an array of
                > possibilities that are very real, just not yet manifested.
                >
                > For example, in hypnotherapist Brian Weiss's book, "Same Soul,
                > Many Bodies," a patient who was convinced that suicide was his
                > only real option was progressed - moved forward in time - to
                > see how his suicide would turn out. He expected to find that
                > the suicide would provide the desired relief from his crushing
                > business problems. Instead, he saw how much grief he would have
                > caused his wife and children. Worse still, he saw that his
                > family members would take the blame for his death upon
                > themselves, feeling that they should have somehow helped him
                > and prevented such a tragedy.
                >
                > Then, he was progressed into a future where he had decided
                > against suicide and, instead, faced up to his crisis of
                > personal failure. Instead of being shunned by his family and
                > friends, as he had expected, he saw them helping him to work
                > through the crisis and recover his standing in the business
                > world. As his consciousness moved through this alternative
                > life, he saw the effects of following the sense of newfound joy
                > that he had allowed into his life. In the light of such
                > possibilities, his intended suicide was no longer a viable
                > option and he chose the path towards joy.
                >
                > I find it fascinating that alternate futures exist in such
                > detail, in such vivid reality, for each person. Not only do
                > they exist as possibilities, they seem as real as if the person
                > had already lived them. Those who view these alternate futures
                > are not making them up. In the above example, the person
                > considering suicide was so depressed about himself that he
                > thought his family would say "Good riddance" when he was gone;
                > he could not have made up the scenes of the alternative futures
                > that he saw under hypnosis. Instead, people who see these
                > future alternatives often learn from situations that they could
                > never have imagined.
                >
                > In a universe created by Infinite Being, each one of us has,
                > by design, infinite possibilities. The question is, what could
                > you do today that will make your tomorrow even better than it
                > would have been? Following your innermost joy means that you
                > are using this inbuilt compass that points unfailingly towards
                > greater fulfillment in life.
                >
                > You can also gain inspiration by discovering some of today's
                > best books on spirituality. You'll find Brian Weiss's
                > fascinating book and a careful selection of other outstanding
                > modern spiritual classics on our Recommended Books page at:

                http://www.infinitebeing.com/reading.htm
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