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Re: Eckankar: The H.I. Letter June 2005

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  • mishmisha9
    Prometheus, Since Klemp uses the term fully cooked in his H.I. Letter, do you think he actually watches Judge Judy? I didn t think Harold watched TV, because
    Message 1 of 23 , Jul 13 9:32 AM
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      Prometheus,

      Since Klemp uses the term "fully cooked" in his H.I. Letter, do you
      think he actually watches Judge Judy? I didn't think Harold watched
      TV, because he suffers from that weird EMR disease. But perhaps that
      is just a Klemp myth--a sort of conspiracy created to keep Eckists
      away from TVs and computers where they might be exposed to the
      Truth??? It seems to be a disease that Eckists do contract--I
      learned of at least two having it before leaving Eckankar! Curious
      that they both are H.I.s--those higher vibrations are so sensitive,
      aren't they! : )

      Mish

      Prometheus wrote:

      Klemp even suggests that Shamus could have been murdered by
      > Rumi's disciples! Actually, Klemp seems to know what Shamus was
      > thinking by describing it (at first) in terms that Judge Judy (of
      TV
      > fame) might use, but then HK starts to backpedal and
      > speculate. "Rumi, he felt needed 'to be cooked' by separation.
      After
      > all, his first departure had seen in Rumi a far greater devotion
      to
      > God. Yet he still leaned too heavily on Shamus; it was holding him
      > back spiritually, so Shamus may have decided to pop Rumi back in
      the
      > oven."
      >
      > Now this is interesting! Here Klemp states that Rumi could only
      > become fully "cooked" spiritually if he was separated from his
      > Master. So, since Rumi was unwilling to leave or say good-bye then
      > Shamus did the right thing and let him go by walking away. . .
      > maybe. Or maybe Shamus was assassinated! Two things come to mind.
      > Why doesn't Klemp (the Mahanta) know the truth about Shamus since
      > Shamus also possessed the Mahanta consciousness? Klemp screwed
      that
      > up, didn't he! And secondly, why doesn't Klemp let his H.I.s go
      and
      > allow them to become more fully "cooked" since he is, apparently,
      > holding them "back spiritually!" "And so there we leave it."
      >
    • prometheus_973
      Hi Ingrid, ... thank you for your analysis, I enjoyed it thoroughly as always. :- ... Milarepa (11th Century) and his beer drinking, difficult, and secret
      Message 2 of 23 , Jul 13 2:58 PM
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        Hi Ingrid,

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "ctecvie"
        <ctecvie@y...> wrote:
        >Hello Prometheus,
        thank you for your analysis, I enjoyed it thoroughly as always. :-

        >>To recap: In the June 2005 Mystic World Klemp talked about
        Milarepa (11th Century) and his beer drinking, difficult, and secret
        (newly created) ECK Master Marpa. By the way, were the Four Zoas
        (laws) of Eckankar in effect then? Beer drinking (alcohol) for ECK
        Masters (High Initiates) is forbidden according to the 1st Zoa
        (Shariyat 2, pg.283).

        >It was too early, Prometheus ...! :-) I think there were not enough
        masters so they took what they could get, beer-drinking or not. ;-)
        Like the initiations given in Paul's times - some Eckists even got
        two on the same day (the fourth and the fifth!)!

        *Actually, according to Twitchell's Eckankar Dictionary these so
        called "ECK (Eckankar) Masters" have been around for thousands of
        years. Just look at Gakko, Rama, and Malati! So, therefore, what
        ever happened to quality over quanity? This is the biggest flaw that
        Eckankar, HCS, and all other organizations and religions have. Then
        again, a bigger flaw is that they don't seem to care either!


        >>Therefore, was Marpa really still qualified to initiate Milarepa
        and was Milarepa therefore qualified to be the L.E.M./Mahanta and so
        on and so forth for all of those afterwards? Remember, this is pre-
        Rebazar (excuse) too! Harold stuck his foot in his mouth it would
        seem. Eckists seem to turn a deaf ear and blind eye to it all while
        numbly and mindlessly trusting that these words don't really
        indicate a flaw in logic or dogma. Why was Klemp so stupid to
        mention this! It's because he's so arrogant and secure with his
        delusions! Eckists will believe anything and everything their leader
        tells them.

        >They do indeed. Remember, it's so "spiritual". Just don't ask
        questions - it's too mental, and don't criticize!

        *Yes, Eckists shouldn't be Astral (plane) and emotional or Mental
        (plane) and so analytical as to question the leadership. There is a
        stigma to conform and those who don't understand and follow this
        don't get the initiations. But, many Eckists are just happy with the
        promises of the 2nd Initiation and not having to return in another
        lifetime! These are carefree Souls who are not fully committed to
        all of the dogma or guidelines (trainings, etc.).

        >>Of course, we former Eckists know that Twitch was the first to
        make it all up as the 1st L.E.M., and Klemp continues the con. Maybe
        he just needs to use the excuse of "Catch-22!"

        >There are also Eckists who have heard of that. And they continue to
        believe - well, that's too much for me to understand! My brain is
        just not big enough. :-)


        >>It seems Klemp's whole purpose in mentioning this "history" of ECK
        Masters in both publications is to compete with and top "Sri"
        Michael Owens (thewayoftruth.com)! I found it interesting that Klemp
        states, "Shamus was a hard teacher." Klemp is not only attempting to
        re-enforce his (Klemp's) authenticity and authority, but also to
        justify his hard-handedness to the entire Eckankar membership.
        According to Klemp, Mapa was a "difficult" teacher, Shamus was
        a "hard" teacher; therefore, HK must be hellish!

        >Indeed he is with all the BS he is promoting ...

        >>Actually, Klemp is just B.S.ing Eckists to make it seem that his
        unloving harshness, censorship, and control tactics are for one's
        own good. It's not true, of course. Klemp only has the power Eckists
        give him! Eckists have allowed Klemp to entrap their own Souls!

        >It's difficult to see when you are in it. But when you are out of
        it, nothing can stop us to see it crystal clearly!

        *Yes, the Truth has set us free! This is a much more difficult path
        in some ways because our Self-Responsibility has become greater
        without the co-dependency of a "Living Master/ Mahanta."

        >>Here's an interesting quote: "Shamus met him in the marketplace,
        and this encounter threw Rumi into a daze. It vaulted him to a
        greater state of consciousness. What mortal enjoyed such divine
        power as Shamus?" Well, since the Eckankar Lexicon states that
        Shamus was the L.E.M./Mahanta, then it seems Klemp is putting
        himself right up there too! Rumi, on the other hand, was just "a
        follower of ECK" (Eckankar Lexicon, pg. 102) and not even an Eck
        Master.

        >He was not?! I thought he was! But I was ever so confused by all
        those masters ...

        *I know, everyone is confused to some degree. The best thing for
        Eckists is Not to pay too much attention to words. Words and
        thoughts are too confusing when all you need is love. Yes, love is
        all you need. SO, DON'T READ THE ECKANKAR LEXICON FROM COVER TO
        COVER!

        >>This is why Klemp states that Rumi just experienced "a greater
        state of consciousness" instead of God-Realization. If HK had stated
        that Rumi had experienced God-Realization, then Rumi would have to
        be listed as more than just "a follower of ECK" in the Eckankar
        Lexicon. At least Klemp got that part of his tale correct! Still, it
        seems HK is also giving credence to his own 1970 "daze" to again
        validate his qualifications and to give his words merit. This is
        brain washing at its best. . . very subtle and not so forceful like
        Scientology. Still, there is that Twitchell connection to the
        Scientology cult!

        >You know that initiates at Twitchell's time were not so highly
        developed than nowadays ... that's what Eckankar says. Well, the
        same seems to be the case with the Eck masters!

        *True, if Twitch wasn't as spiritually evolved in 1965 as the
        Klempster is today then where does that leave Rebazar? By this logic
        Rebazar had the consciousness of a 2nd Initiate when he stood in for
        Twitch and handed Darwin the Rod of ECK Power!

        >>I found it interesting that Owens' site has a section that has
        Rumi talking as though he is still with us! Klemp, however, makes
        three distinct speculations about what happened to Shamus after he
        left Rumi. Klemp makes statements like: "other speculation; no one
        really knows; there are said; A third reason that Shamus may have
        left" etc. Klemp even suggests that Shamus could have been murdered
        by Rumi's disciples! Actually, Klemp seems to know what Shamus was
        thinking by describing it (at first) in terms that Judge Judy (of
        TV fame) might use, but then HK starts to backpedal and
        speculate. "Rumi, he felt needed 'to be cooked' by separation. After
        all, his first departure had seen in Rumi a far greater devotion to
        God. Yet he still leaned too heavily on Shamus; it was holding him
        back spiritually, so Shamus may have decided to pop Rumi back in the
        oven."

        >How many seekers is HK holding back?! This is a spiritual crime ...

        *True, but it pays the bills!


        >>Now this is interesting! Here Klemp states that Rumi could only
        become fully "cooked" spiritually if he was separated from his
        Master. So, since Rumi was unwilling to leave or say good-bye then
        Shamus did the right thing and let him go by walking away. . .
        maybe. Or maybe Shamus was assassinated! Two things come to mind.
        Why doesn't Klemp (the Mahanta) know the truth about Shamus since
        Shamus also possessed the Mahanta consciousness? Klemp screwed that
        up, didn't he!

        >Nobody will ever ask because you don't ask the mahanta! Even if
        it's ever so illogical, nobody will question HK, the godman!

        *True, such questions, especially in a "monthly initiate report"
        will only get you watched by your RESA and possibly black-listed on
        initiations for three years minimun.

        >>And secondly, why doesn't Klemp let his H.I.s go and allow them to
        become more fully "cooked" since he is, apparently, holding
        them "back spiritually!" "And so there we leave it."

        >He uses more threats than ever to keep his followers ...

        *Yes, Klemp will use the threats from Twitchell's two Shariyats to
        keep people in line. But, why are these books by Twitchell okay
        while others are not up to the standards of current consciousness?
        Why hasn't Klemp written a Shariyat 3 or 4?

        >>After this article is a small box that states: "The goal of an
        H.I. get-together is to strengthen you in your common purpose: to
        assist, through outer service, the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master in
        his mission to show Soul the way home to God." --Shree Klempster
        Now why doesn't Klemp just say what an H.I. "get-together" really
        is? It's a TRAINING, People! Klemp doesn't even capitalize "get-
        together" since it's to be thought of as a social gathering of
        sorts, but it's not! Yes, Eckists are now realizing their true goal
        and mission as pseudo Eck Masters in training (forever) is not God-
        Realization, but to recruit more paying members! Who'd a thunk!

        >It's disguised as a get-together. But remember - Eckists don't
        socialize when they meet! It's not for "social" purposes that
        eckists meet, just for "spiritual" ones. Eckankar doesn't like to
        call their get-togethers "social"! So, apparently they are admitting
        that it's for some other purpose they are getting together ...

        *I always thought that the "Harji Potlucks" were kind of a way to
        socialize, although, we always had a "donation plate" out on a
        table. Yes, you're right! The only thing that I ever had in common
        with most Eckists was Eckankar! And they probably felt the same...
        so why even try to socialize with nothing else in common! I guess we
        felt guilt in not wanting to "love" everyone the same. There were
        exceptions though, and those are the Eckists that I still call,
        email, write to, and visit with.

        Prometheus
      • prometheus_973
        Hi Mish, True, Klemp s a liar! He watches TV and surfs the Internet! In 1990, when David Lane put his information of Eckankar on the Internet, is when Klemp
        Message 3 of 23 , Jul 13 3:29 PM
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          Hi Mish,

          True, Klemp's a liar! He watches TV and surfs the Internet! In 1990,
          when David Lane put his information of Eckankar on the Internet, is
          when Klemp first started to have "EMR health problems." Of course,
          many Eckists suddenly discovered their own health problems were
          related to EMR as well! Funny how that special (Mahanta
          suggested) "Golden-Tongued Wisdom" (self-fulfilling) prophecy thing
          works with highly suggestible people.

          Yes, Klemp just has to suggest something and half the Eckists will
          experience it in one form or another. They're "plugged in" but Not
          to the Eck (Holy Spirit), but to mass hypnotic suggestion and
          delusion. As above so below.

          Prometheus


          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
          <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:

          >Prometheus,
          Since Klemp uses the term "fully cooked" in his H.I. Letter, do you
          think he actually watches Judge Judy? I didn't think Harold watched
          TV, because he suffers from that weird EMR disease. But perhaps that
          is just a Klemp myth--a sort of conspiracy created to keep Eckists
          away from TVs and computers where they might be exposed to the
          Truth??? It seems to be a disease that Eckists do contract--I
          learned of at least two having it before leaving Eckankar! Curious
          that they both are H.I.s--those higher vibrations are so sensitive,
          aren't they! : )

          > Mish
          >
          > Prometheus wrote:
          >
          > Klemp even suggests that Shamus could have been murdered by
          > > Rumi's disciples! Actually, Klemp seems to know what Shamus was
          > > thinking by describing it (at first) in terms that Judge Judy
          (of
          > TV
          > > fame) might use, but then HK starts to backpedal and
          > > speculate. "Rumi, he felt needed 'to be cooked' by separation.
          > After
          > > all, his first departure had seen in Rumi a far greater devotion
          > to
          > > God. Yet he still leaned too heavily on Shamus; it was holding
          him
          > > back spiritually, so Shamus may have decided to pop Rumi back in
          > the
          > > oven."
          > >
          > > Now this is interesting! Here Klemp states that Rumi could only
          > > become fully "cooked" spiritually if he was separated from his
          > > Master. So, since Rumi was unwilling to leave or say good-bye
          then
          > > Shamus did the right thing and let him go by walking away. . .
          > > maybe. Or maybe Shamus was assassinated! Two things come to
          mind.
          > > Why doesn't Klemp (the Mahanta) know the truth about Shamus
          since
          > > Shamus also possessed the Mahanta consciousness? Klemp screwed
          > that
          > > up, didn't he! And secondly, why doesn't Klemp let his H.I.s go
          > and
          > > allow them to become more fully "cooked" since he is,
          apparently,
          > > holding them "back spiritually!" "And so there we leave it."
          > >
        • mishmisha9
          Regarding those Harji potlucks, I always found it helpful to either eat well before going or stop someplace afterwards to get a real meal! It seemed so much of
          Message 4 of 23 , Jul 13 7:30 PM
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            Regarding those Harji potlucks, I always found it helpful to either
            eat well before going or stop someplace afterwards to get a real meal!
            It seemed so much of the social discussion evolved around the "right"
            dietary food--avoid this and avoid that sort of discussion which was
            so boring and certainly took away from the enjoyment of the
            dining! : ) I did notice, however, how Eckists would swoop down on the
            meat dishes which were actually few and far between for the most part.
            Put a platter of turkey on the table and it would be gone in 30
            seconds! I don't miss those potlucks at all. . .

            Mish
          • Greg and Liz
            ... *** I probably shouldn t get in on this topic since I won t be around for a couple weeks. :-) But this is just too much fun! I have to share something
            Message 5 of 23 , Jul 14 5:15 AM
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              prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

              >Of course, many Eckists suddenly discovered their own health problems were related to EMR as well! Funny how that special (Mahanta suggested) "Golden-Tongued Wisdom" (self-fulfilling) prophecy thing works with highly suggestible people.

              *** I probably shouldn't get in on this topic since I won't be around for a couple weeks.  :-)  But this is just too much fun!

                 I have to share something that maybe others were thinking or even recall hearing other eckist claiming back in the early days of Klump's illness issues.... and maybe still do?  Take my Mom for example, who also became ill around the same time as this EMR illness came up.  She proudly boasted that she would willingly (as an HI, since the lowly couldn't handle it) help take on Klump's illness so he wouldn't have to carry all the burden of the universe by himself! She used to claim  Klump's illness and other's were due to the shift taking place in the consciousness of this universe, because Klump was bringing it up to a new initiation level.  And by this event, Klump and Co. would be taking on the karma of the universe.  (Her illness isn't EMR, but she claims it is related because of an inner experience with Klump;  her illness wasn't what it seemed.  So for quit a long time she refused treatment because Klump was going to heal her.... then one afternoon her doctor entered her room with the gloomy prognoses that if she didn't take the treatment she would be dead by morning.  For someone that pretended to commit suicide for attention for most of my early years, she sure was afraid of death that day!) 

              >Yes, Klemp just has to suggest something and half the Eckists will experience it in one form or another. They're "plugged in" but Not to the Eck (Holy Spirit), but to mass hypnotic suggestion and delusion. As above so below.

              *** Most of us were part of that delusion. Yet I, on a very rare occasion question what it was that actually *woke* me up to this.  I have to think of it as a very long deep sleep. (30 years)  One beautiful sunny morning the curtains just couldn't keep the light from waking me. 

              Anyway, I'm off on another camping trip.  Looking forward to getting in touch with nature....  :-D  Hope everyone enjoys their summer as I am!

              Hugs

              Liz

            • Greg and Liz
              ... ** LOL, sounds familiar! How many of us actually tried eating what we thought was healthy because of a certain Twitch book, or recommendations of books by
              Message 6 of 23 , Jul 14 5:33 AM
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                mishmisha9 <mishmisha9@...> wrote:

                >Regarding those Harji potlucks, I always found it helpful to either eat well before going or stop someplace afterwards to get a real meal!

                ** LOL, sounds familiar!  How many of us actually tried eating what we thought was healthy because of a certain Twitch book, or recommendations of books by the Klumpster?  I for one did, and found myself eventually having illnesses I created by trying to do the eckclone thing.... 

                >It seemed so much of the social discussion evolved around the "right" dietary food--avoid this and avoid that sort of discussion which was so boring and certainly took away from the enjoyment of the dining!

                **  This reminds me of the Stepford Wives movie remake....  the whole ecksocial thing.  But honestly, once I stopped trying to become healthy, I regained my health!   

              • mishmisha9
                We even held a Harji Potluck at our home one time! At one point during the affair, I stepped into my kitchen to find an Eckist explaining to another Eckist
                Message 7 of 23 , Jul 14 7:32 AM
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                  We even held a Harji Potluck at our home one time! At one point
                  during the affair, I stepped into my kitchen to find an Eckist
                  explaining to another Eckist what was good to eat and what wasn't.
                  She even had pulled a container out of my refrigerator pointing to
                  the listed "unhealthy" ingredients that was in a certain food. When
                  she saw me, she pulled me into the discussion to enlighten me as
                  well! : ) Later, this Eckist told me that she got into some serious
                  problems with her heart for following some of those Eck
                  recommended "healthy" diets she had been following. She's doing okay
                  now, and we enjoy an occasional lunch together where food is no
                  longer the central topic, but rather just one aspect of our time.

                  Mish

                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Greg and Liz
                  <whitefeatherliz@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > mishmisha9 <mishmisha9@y...> wrote
                  > >Regarding those Harji potlucks, I always found it helpful to
                  either eat well before going or stop someplace afterwards to get a
                  real meal!
                  >
                  > ** LOL, sounds familiar! How many of us actually tried eating
                  what we thought was healthy because of a certain Twitch book, or
                  recommendations of books by the Klumpster? I for one did, and found
                  myself eventually having illnesses I created by trying to do the
                  eckclone thing....
                  >
                  > >It seemed so much of the social discussion evolved around
                  the "right" dietary food--avoid this and avoid that sort of
                  discussion which was so boring and certainly took away from the
                  enjoyment of the dining!
                  >
                  > ** This reminds me of the Stepford Wives movie remake.... the
                  whole ecksocial thing. But honestly, once I stopped trying to
                  become healthy, I regained my health!
                • ctecvie
                  Hello Liz & Mish, ... either eat well before going or stop someplace afterwards to get a real meal! It seems that I was really lucky to have real good meals at
                  Message 8 of 23 , Jul 14 10:09 AM
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                    Hello Liz & Mish,

                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Greg and Liz
                    <whitefeatherliz@y...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > mishmisha9 <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
                    > >Regarding those Harji potlucks, I always found it helpful to
                    either eat well before going or stop someplace afterwards to get a
                    real meal!

                    It seems that I was really lucky to have real good meals at our
                    local center! :-)
                    >
                    > ** LOL, sounds familiar! How many of us actually tried eating
                    what we thought was healthy because of a certain Twitch book, or
                    recommendations of books by the Klumpster? I for one did, and found
                    myself eventually having illnesses I created by trying to do the
                    eckclone thing....

                    Oh yes - fortunately, I was not as gullible as many others in this
                    respect, but of course I tried to be a good Eckist, and still was
                    gullible enough. I remember an Eckist who was very much into healthy
                    food - she had to bring her own food wherever she went because she
                    couldn't eat the food there, she didn't support it! I always felt
                    that a spiritual path should make me healthier and stronger and not
                    the contrary. And of course there was the lady you know already who
                    said that meat-eaters were smelling foul. Can you imagine that! :-)
                    >
                    > >It seemed so much of the social discussion evolved around
                    the "right" dietary food--avoid this and avoid that sort of
                    discussion which was so boring and certainly took away from the
                    enjoyment of the dining!
                    >
                    > ** This reminds me of the Stepford Wives movie remake.... the
                    whole ecksocial thing. But honestly, once I stopped trying to
                    become healthy, I regained my health!

                    Well, once you really start being yourself, then everything gets
                    much better. The moment you try to clone yourself from the image of
                    a "master", you eventually get sick because you are not living your
                    life. Rather easy to see, now, I think :-)

                    Ingrid
                  • prometheus_973
                    Hi Liz, Have a nice camping trip and keep dry. I enjoyed your comments and have a few more of my own to share. ... wrote: ... problems
                    Message 9 of 23 , Jul 14 8:46 PM
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                      Hi Liz,
                      Have a nice camping trip and keep dry. I enjoyed your comments and
                      have a few more of my own to share.

                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Greg and Liz
                      <whitefeatherliz@y...> wrote:
                      prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:

                      >>Of course, many Eckists suddenly discovered their own health
                      problems were related to EMR as well! Funny how that special
                      (Mahanta suggested) "Golden-Tongued Wisdom" (self-fulfilling)
                      prophecy thing works with highly suggestible people.

                      >*** I probably shouldn't get in on this topic since I won't be
                      around for a couple weeks. :-) But this is just too much fun!

                      >***I have to share something that maybe others were thinking or
                      even recall hearing other eckist claiming back in the early days of
                      Klump's illness issues.... and maybe still do? Take my Mom for
                      example, who also became ill around the same time as this EMR
                      illness came up. She proudly boasted that she would willingly (as
                      an HI, since the lowly couldn't handle it) help take on Klump's
                      illness so he wouldn't have to carry all the burden of the universe
                      by himself! She used to claim Klump's illness and other's were due
                      to the shift taking place in the consciousness of this universe,
                      because Klump was bringing it up to a new initiation level. And by
                      this event, Klump and Co. would be taking on the karma of the
                      universe. (Her illness isn't EMR, but she claims it is related
                      because of an inner experience with Klump; her illness wasn't what
                      it seemed. So for quit a long time she refused treatment because
                      Klump was going to heal her.... then one afternoon her doctor
                      entered her room with the gloomy prognoses that if she didn't take
                      the treatment she would be dead by morning. For someone that
                      pretended to commit suicide for attention for most of my early
                      years, she sure was afraid of death that day!)


                      Yes, many Eckists were acting very vain in thinking they were
                      helping the L.E.M./Mahanta (Klump) with the karma that he had taken
                      on for the world. LOL! Shit still happened in the world so it didn't
                      seem to help did it! We got Dubya as Pres so consciousness even
                      dropped a couple of notches! Thanks you very much Harold! Not!

                      Remember how H.I.s would sit in the front row at seminars when Klemp
                      gave his talks. This was to place a wall of protection between him
                      and and the other initiates (and Nons). I believe Klemp even
                      mentioned this once. Since people had flown or driven to the seminar
                      they were still stressed out from the long journey and not in a
                      positive or balanced mode, and Klemp needed protection from these
                      negative or chaotic energies because he was already weakened.

                      Therefore, is it any wonder that Eckists thought they needed to help
                      out with taking on Klemp's "world" karma or that of all Eckists.
                      However, this delusion prevented these Eckists (through vanity) from
                      taking responsibility and reviewing their own actions (and karma)
                      which attributed to their own health problems. Not too long ago in a
                      Mystic World article Klemp pointed out that no one could take on
                      karma for the L.E.M./Mahanta. Of course, even having a wall of H.I.s
                      in front of him kind of makes one wonder why HK needed it if he is
                      all that he claims! I wonder if Eckists ever thought about that? I
                      didn't! But, at least I was never a vain martyr like many
                      (apparantly) in thinking that I could take on Karma for Klemp!

                      >>Yes, Klemp just has to suggest something and half the Eckists will
                      experience it in one form or another. They're "plugged in" but Not
                      to the Eck (Holy Spirit), but to mass hypnotic suggestion and
                      delusion. As above so below.


                      >***Most of us were part of that delusion. Yet I, on a very rare
                      occasion question what it was that actually *woke* me up to this. I
                      have to think of it as a very long deep sleep. (30 years) One
                      beautiful sunny morning the curtains just couldn't keep the light
                      from waking me.


                      I know!

                      I once questioned someone from the ESC about discontinuing Paul's
                      books (about twenty years ago when it first started), and was told
                      not to second guess the Mahanta! The guy was rather arrogant, but a
                      good little soldier just the same. Let's not question why this
                      historical information is being discontinued and is now totally
                      unavailable! The thing is... if Twitchell's stuff isn't on as high
                      of a level of consciousness with the current teaching... so what! At
                      least make it available to card carrying paid members of Eckankar,
                      or at least to H.I.s! Let Eckists decide what is valuable and what
                      is not, and Not let Klemp decide for you! Why is censorship
                      necessary unless there is something to hide?

                      Prometheus
                    • ctecvie
                      Hello Liz, ... even recall hearing other eckist claiming back in the early days of Klump s illness issues.... and maybe still do? Take my Mom for example, who
                      Message 10 of 23 , Jul 15 2:47 AM
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                        Hello Liz,

                        > I have to share something that maybe others were thinking or
                        even recall hearing other eckist claiming back in the early days of
                        Klump's illness issues.... and maybe still do? Take my Mom for
                        example, who also became ill around the same time as this EMR illness
                        came up.

                        <<<<<< I knew quite a few people who said they were sensible to this,
                        too! Even in my "best" times as an Eckist, I never could understand
                        how that happened. I know, of course, that some people are more
                        sensible than others, but this was too obvious for me. I kept
                        thinking that they were identifying themselves too much with Harold
                        and I didn't like that too much.

                        > She proudly boasted that she would willingly (as an HI, since the
                        lowly couldn't handle it) help take on Klump's illness so he wouldn't
                        have to carry all the burden of the universe by himself! She used to
                        claim Klump's illness and other's were due to the shift taking place
                        in the consciousness of this universe, because Klump was bringing it
                        up to a new initiation level.

                        <<<<<< Well, the burdens of a whole universe are too heavy indeed! :-
                        ) And of course to lift the whole universe to another level of
                        consciousness is even heavier! :-) He should have left this to
                        Atlas! ;-))

                        >And by this event, Klump and Co. would be taking on the karma of the
                        universe.

                        <<<<<< It's incredible we believed all that!

                        >(Her illness isn't EMR, but she claims it is related because of an
                        inner experience with Klump; her illness wasn't what it seemed. So
                        for quit a long time she refused treatment because Klump was going to
                        heal her.... then one afternoon her doctor entered her room
                        > with the gloomy prognoses that if she didn't take the treatment
                        she would be dead by morning. For someone that pretended to commit
                        suicide for attention for most of my early years, she sure was afraid
                        of death that day!)

                        <<<<<< I know a 6th initiate whose mother had many difficulties to
                        die - apparently, she was very afraid to let go. And this mother was
                        a 6th initiate as well! The daughter - grandchild of the woman who
                        died - left Eckankar after this event because she saw that the
                        teachings didn't really work. My friend, the 6th initiate, is still
                        very devoted to Eckankar and especially to the mahanta - I always saw
                        this as an unhealthy and rather abnormal behavior.
                        >
                        > *** Most of us were part of that delusion. Yet I, on a very rare
                        occasion question what it was that actually *woke* me up to this. I
                        have to think of it as a very long deep sleep. (30 years) One
                        beautiful sunny morning the curtains just couldn't keep the light
                        from waking me.

                        <<<<<< Yes, we all bought into this delusion, more or less.
                        Fortunately I was not such a long-term member and only a lowly 3rd
                        initiate! :-) I think that when it's time, we all wake up - even
                        after such a long sleep like yours! Actually, I think you are very
                        brave and intelligent to do so because that's not an easy task after
                        practically having been brought up in the religion!


                        >
                        > Anyway, I'm off on another camping trip. Looking forward to
                        getting in touch with nature.... :-D Hope everyone enjoys their
                        summer as I am!

                        <<<<<< Have fun & take care!
                        Ingrid
                      • mishmisha9
                        I always thought it was arrogant to think you could take on the karma of the universe! Plus, I never noticed any changes in the universe when someone had
                        Message 11 of 23 , Jul 15 7:30 AM
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                          I always thought it was arrogant to think you could take on the
                          karma of the universe! Plus, I never noticed any changes in the
                          universe when someone had claimed to do such a thing! I mean what
                          proved that this was being done!!!!

                          I have a friend who for a time self-diagnosed the EMR problem, right
                          after I communicated (via email)about and urged this person to read
                          Ford's book Confessions of a God Seeker. All of a sudden, this
                          person could no longer sit at the computer without becoming ill!
                          What a coincidence! : )

                          In my naivety, I asked how one was diagnosed--what procedures/tests
                          are done to prove such an illness. Well, this person became highly
                          defensive and said that he/she didn't need tests to prove it--he/she
                          knew!!!! Did I mention this was an H.I.? Talk about being highly
                          sensitive--when defending crackpot theories! I have noticed that the
                          anger/defensiveness occurs the strongest with those who have the
                          weakest belief systems or theories that they are promoting! I guess
                          this is so, because there is no real basis in fact to what they are
                          buying into! It's all speculation--their own or someone else's that
                          they want to believe! Maybe, they are fighting their own
                          subconscious that knows better and they are frustrated. The argument
                          is not really with those who are not agreeing with them, but
                          actually within their own selves. Well, that's just a guess!

                          Mish
                        • prometheus_973
                          Hi Mish, I remembered some things after reading your post, and thought I d comment. ... karma of the universe! Plus, I never noticed any changes in the
                          Message 12 of 23 , Jul 15 3:58 PM
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                            Hi Mish,
                            I remembered some things after reading your post, and thought I'd
                            comment.

                            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                            <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:

                            > I always thought it was arrogant to think you could take on the
                            karma of the universe! Plus, I never noticed any changes in the
                            universe when someone had claimed to do such a thing! I mean what
                            proved that this was being done!!!!


                            This is true for all of these "Masters" or "Whatever" they claim to
                            be, and for the "powers" they possess. Maharishi, of TM fame, would
                            gather thousands of us siddhas together to "raise the consciousness"
                            of the areas we were sent to. Washington D.C. or New York City for
                            the United Nations conferences or even the Middle East were hot spot
                            areas that needed our help. The problem with going to the Middle
                            Eastern countries was with the clothes the average TMer was expected
                            to wear. Maharishi had a dress code that made everyone look like an
                            FBI or CIA agent! Everyone was stopped at customs! How could you
                            blame the people in these other countries when hundreds of young
                            dark suited males and females were coming to their country just
                            to "meditate" and raise the consciousness of their country. But,
                            when one looks at what is happening in the world since all of
                            this "raising of consciousness" has been taking place it seems that
                            Maharishi and Klemp were just full of hot air. TM's con is to
                            create "Heaven on Earth." Klemp's claim is what... to give spiritual
                            freedom through Eck mastership? But one needs the 10th Initiation
                            for Eck "Mastership" and that doesn't happen on the physical plane
                            unless your male and are the Living Eck Master! Promises! Promises!


                            > I have a friend who for a time self-diagnosed the EMR problem,
                            right after I communicated (via email)about and urged this person to
                            read Ford's book Confessions of a God Seeker. All of a sudden, this
                            person could no longer sit at the computer without becoming ill!
                            What a coincidence! : )


                            Yes, I had a H.I. Eck friend (pre "Confessions") that told me that
                            she believed in kinesiology. I expressed doubt that it really worked
                            and was a valid method to use for one's health. But, she was very
                            insistent on its reliability. However, she then told me that she was
                            still going to use some supplements that she was Not to use because
                            of the kinesology test. She felt that using her own "intuition" was
                            better. I then said, "I guess you don't really believe in kinesology
                            then." The Eckist then got a very puzzled look on her face, and the
                            back peddling began!


                            > In my naivety, I asked how one was diagnosed--what
                            procedures/tests are done to prove such an illness. Well, this
                            person became highly defensive and said that he/she didn't need
                            tests to prove it--he/she knew!!!! Did I mention this was an H.I.?
                            Talk about being highly sensitive--when defending crackpot theories!


                            People want answers and sooner or later they will find them... even
                            if those answers are not accurate or truthful.


                            > I have noticed that the anger/defensiveness occurs the strongest
                            with those who have the weakest belief systems or theories that they
                            are promoting! I guess this is so, because there is no real basis in
                            fact to what they are buying into! It's all speculation--their own
                            or someone else's that they want to believe! Maybe, they are
                            fighting their own subconscious that knows better and they are
                            frustrated. The argument is not really with those who are not
                            agreeing with them, but actually within their own selves. Well,
                            that's just a guess!


                            I agree! Either on a Soul level or a subconscious or even on an
                            unconscious level of awareness one's Self sees through the facade
                            and distortions that are created by ego as a matter of convenience
                            or security for peace of mind. Everyones' ego are seeking that
                            comfort level to deal with their own limited reality and with
                            portions of the realities of others. Usually people tend to group
                            together in order to bolster the ego's belief in the facsimiles of
                            similar creations.


                            Prometheus
                          • Freefrom
                            I really like a lot of the ideas expressed in this post, Prometheus, but I have a problem or difficulty with the last part where you talk about the ego as if
                            Message 13 of 23 , Jul 15 11:13 PM
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                              I really like a lot of the ideas expressed in this post, Prometheus,
                              but I have a problem or difficulty with the last part where you talk
                              about the ego as if it is some separate entity, aside from whatever.
                              Would you mind explaining where you are coming from on this. Thanks.

                              Freefrom


                              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                              <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
                              > Hi Mish,
                              > I remembered some things after reading your post, and thought I'd
                              > comment.
                              >
                              > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                              > <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
                              >
                              > > I always thought it was arrogant to think you could take on the
                              > karma of the universe! Plus, I never noticed any changes in the
                              > universe when someone had claimed to do such a thing! I mean what
                              > proved that this was being done!!!!
                              >
                              >
                              > This is true for all of these "Masters" or "Whatever" they claim to
                              > be, and for the "powers" they possess. Maharishi, of TM fame, would
                              > gather thousands of us siddhas together to "raise the consciousness"
                              > of the areas we were sent to. Washington D.C. or New York City for
                              > the United Nations conferences or even the Middle East were hot spot
                              > areas that needed our help. The problem with going to the Middle
                              > Eastern countries was with the clothes the average TMer was expected
                              > to wear. Maharishi had a dress code that made everyone look like an
                              > FBI or CIA agent! Everyone was stopped at customs! How could you
                              > blame the people in these other countries when hundreds of young
                              > dark suited males and females were coming to their country just
                              > to "meditate" and raise the consciousness of their country. But,
                              > when one looks at what is happening in the world since all of
                              > this "raising of consciousness" has been taking place it seems that
                              > Maharishi and Klemp were just full of hot air. TM's con is to
                              > create "Heaven on Earth." Klemp's claim is what... to give spiritual
                              > freedom through Eck mastership? But one needs the 10th Initiation
                              > for Eck "Mastership" and that doesn't happen on the physical plane
                              > unless your male and are the Living Eck Master! Promises! Promises!
                              >
                              >
                              > > I have a friend who for a time self-diagnosed the EMR problem,
                              > right after I communicated (via email)about and urged this person to
                              > read Ford's book Confessions of a God Seeker. All of a sudden, this
                              > person could no longer sit at the computer without becoming ill!
                              > What a coincidence! : )
                              >
                              >
                              > Yes, I had a H.I. Eck friend (pre "Confessions") that told me that
                              > she believed in kinesiology. I expressed doubt that it really worked
                              > and was a valid method to use for one's health. But, she was very
                              > insistent on its reliability. However, she then told me that she was
                              > still going to use some supplements that she was Not to use because
                              > of the kinesology test. She felt that using her own "intuition" was
                              > better. I then said, "I guess you don't really believe in kinesology
                              > then." The Eckist then got a very puzzled look on her face, and the
                              > back peddling began!
                              >
                              >
                              > > In my naivety, I asked how one was diagnosed--what
                              > procedures/tests are done to prove such an illness. Well, this
                              > person became highly defensive and said that he/she didn't need
                              > tests to prove it--he/she knew!!!! Did I mention this was an H.I.?
                              > Talk about being highly sensitive--when defending crackpot theories!
                              >
                              >
                              > People want answers and sooner or later they will find them... even
                              > if those answers are not accurate or truthful.
                              >
                              >
                              > > I have noticed that the anger/defensiveness occurs the strongest
                              > with those who have the weakest belief systems or theories that they
                              > are promoting! I guess this is so, because there is no real basis in
                              > fact to what they are buying into! It's all speculation--their own
                              > or someone else's that they want to believe! Maybe, they are
                              > fighting their own subconscious that knows better and they are
                              > frustrated. The argument is not really with those who are not
                              > agreeing with them, but actually within their own selves. Well,
                              > that's just a guess!
                              >
                              >
                              > I agree! Either on a Soul level or a subconscious or even on an
                              > unconscious level of awareness one's Self sees through the facade
                              > and distortions that are created by ego as a matter of convenience
                              > or security for peace of mind. Everyones' ego are seeking that
                              > comfort level to deal with their own limited reality and with
                              > portions of the realities of others. Usually people tend to group
                              > together in order to bolster the ego's belief in the facsimiles of
                              > similar creations.
                              >
                              >
                              > Prometheus
                            • prometheus_973
                              Hello Freefrom, Welcome to the site! I left the statements that led up to those comments in order to keep the context in place. Of course, the following is
                              Message 14 of 23 , Jul 16 9:30 AM
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                                Hello Freefrom,

                                Welcome to the site! I left the statements that led up to those
                                comments in order to keep the context in place. Of course, the
                                following is only my opinion based on various factors, three of
                                which are observation, experience, and a degree of Self awareness.

                                In a sense the ego is a separate entity in that it is the portion of
                                the mind that solidifies the permanence of the illusions we create
                                in order to survive or cope with "reality." It has been said, more
                                or less, that the mind is a good servant but a terrible master, and
                                I would agree. When one operates and lives their life from the
                                attitude and perspective of Soul then one has much more control of
                                the ego and a degree of clarity of all life.

                                Unfortunately, some people talk the talk but don't walk the walk,
                                but their behaviors give them away. Ego makes one narcissitic
                                and "self" centered and clouds the mind to the point of obsession
                                and delusion. However, ego does have its usefulness and purpose, but
                                to identify with it as many do just leads to self and even group
                                misery. Ego distracts, misleads, and distorts as a protection
                                mechanism. Therefore, the stronger the ego the weaker the
                                individual. When the ego is weaker or controllable the individual
                                Self becomes stronger and more Self aware.

                                But no, the ego is not really a separate entity... it just acts as
                                though it is. Anyway, I hope this wordy explaination has clarified
                                my previous post for you.

                                Prometheus


                                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Freefrom"
                                <eckchains@y...> wrote:

                                > I really like a lot of the ideas expressed in this post,
                                Prometheus, but I have a problem or difficulty with the last part
                                where you talk about the ego as if it is some separate entity, aside
                                from whatever. Would you mind explaining where you are coming from
                                on this. Thanks.

                                > Freefrom





                                Prometheus: People want answers and sooner or later they will find
                                them... even if those answers are not accurate or truthful.

                                Mish: I have noticed that the anger/defensiveness occurs the
                                strongest with those who have the weakest belief systems or theories
                                that they are promoting! I guess this is so, because there is no
                                real basis in fact to what they are buying into! It's all
                                speculation--their own or someone else's that they want to believe!
                                Maybe, they are fighting their own subconscious that knows better
                                and they are frustrated. The argument is not really with those who
                                are not agreeing with them, but actually within their own selves.
                                Well, that's just a guess!


                                Prometheus: I agree! Either on a Soul level or a subconscious or
                                even on an unconscious level of awareness one's Self sees through
                                the facade and distortions that are created by ego as a matter of
                                convenience or security for peace of mind. Everyone's ego is seeking
                                that comfort level to deal with their own limited reality and with
                                portions of the realities of others. Usually people tend to group
                                together in order to bolster the ego's belief in the facsimiles of
                                similar creations.
                              • ctecvie
                                Hello Prometheus & Mish, ... to ... would ... consciousness ... spot ... expected ... an ... I think this behavior shows a lot of disrespect to the people in
                                Message 15 of 23 , Jul 17 1:58 AM
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                                  Hello Prometheus & Mish,

                                  > This is true for all of these "Masters" or "Whatever" they claim
                                  to
                                  > be, and for the "powers" they possess. Maharishi, of TM fame,
                                  would
                                  > gather thousands of us siddhas together to "raise the
                                  consciousness"
                                  > of the areas we were sent to. Washington D.C. or New York City for
                                  > the United Nations conferences or even the Middle East were hot
                                  spot
                                  > areas that needed our help. The problem with going to the Middle
                                  > Eastern countries was with the clothes the average TMer was
                                  expected
                                  > to wear. Maharishi had a dress code that made everyone look like
                                  an
                                  > FBI or CIA agent! Everyone was stopped at customs! How could you
                                  > blame the people in these other countries when hundreds of young
                                  > dark suited males and females were coming to their country just
                                  > to "meditate" and raise the consciousness of their country.


                                  I think this behavior shows a lot of disrespect to the people in
                                  this country. How can you raise the consciousness of somebody whom
                                  you don't respect and, besides that, is certainly not willing to
                                  have his "consciousness raised"? And, raised to what? What if their
                                  consciousness is already where it should be, but only different? I
                                  remember our guide from a tour we made in the US who, despite his
                                  young age, was a very wise guy who always told us when the time came
                                  to choose between two or three tour offers for the current
                                  day: "Remember, whatever you choose don't complain or don't think
                                  that yours is better or worse than the other tours - it's not
                                  better, it's not worse, it's just different". I will remember this
                                  guy always just for this sentence!


                                  > when one looks at what is happening in the world since all of
                                  > this "raising of consciousness" has been taking place it seems
                                  that
                                  > Maharishi and Klemp were just full of hot air. TM's con is to
                                  > create "Heaven on Earth." Klemp's claim is what... to give
                                  spiritual
                                  > freedom through Eck mastership? But one needs the 10th Initiation
                                  > for Eck "Mastership" and that doesn't happen on the physical plane
                                  > unless your male and are the Living Eck Master! Promises! Promises!

                                  Prometheus, I think you have gotten that wrong. ;-) It's not through
                                  Eck mastership because nobody will ever attain it for HK is glued to
                                  his seat, but the promise is to not have to come back to
                                  this "lower" world full of sh ... but to sit happily on a cloud on
                                  the soul plane or even higher! ;-)) (well, that's a bit simplified,
                                  I know, but what the heck, I couldn't resist this one ;-)) ).
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > > I have a friend who for a time self-diagnosed the EMR problem,
                                  > right after I communicated (via email)about and urged this person
                                  to
                                  > read Ford's book Confessions of a God Seeker. All of a sudden,
                                  this
                                  > person could no longer sit at the computer without becoming ill!
                                  > What a coincidence! : )

                                  Yes and there were many more who got the same thing, or thought
                                  so ...
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Yes, I had a H.I. Eck friend (pre "Confessions") that told me that
                                  > she believed in kinesiology. I expressed doubt that it really
                                  worked
                                  > and was a valid method to use for one's health.

                                  Well, as everything, it's a method to help yourselves - if you are
                                  interested in this kind of method. My husband was one of the first
                                  kinesiologists in the country (besides his "real" work as an IT
                                  specialist in a bank) and I have found and still find this method
                                  quite helpful. But of course, if you develop cancer or break a leg
                                  or develop other serious symptoms, you still have to go to the
                                  doctor to find out what's wrong and how it can be helped. I think
                                  that all these methods can be used in addition to traditional
                                  methods. And they can help you keep your energy level high before
                                  developing symptoms! There are so many methods and therapies out
                                  there - the most important is that you make your choice, whatever
                                  this choice is! And that you stay reasonable, too.

                                  > But, she was very
                                  > insistent on its reliability. However, she then told me that she
                                  was
                                  > still going to use some supplements that she was Not to use
                                  because
                                  > of the kinesology test. She felt that using her own "intuition"
                                  was
                                  > better. I then said, "I guess you don't really believe in
                                  kinesology
                                  > then." The Eckist then got a very puzzled look on her face, and
                                  the
                                  > back peddling began!

                                  Well, seems that she did not really make her choice ... :-)
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > > In my naivety, I asked how one was diagnosed--what
                                  > procedures/tests are done to prove such an illness. Well, this
                                  > person became highly defensive and said that he/she didn't need
                                  > tests to prove it--he/she knew!!!! Did I mention this was an
                                  H.I.?
                                  > Talk about being highly sensitive--when defending crackpot
                                  theories!

                                  Eckankar helped us a lot to become deluded ... apart from meeting
                                  really nice people in Eckankar, it was also in Eckankar that I met
                                  the most deluded people.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > People want answers and sooner or later they will find them...
                                  even
                                  > if those answers are not accurate or truthful.

                                  Yes, and I think that the thing is to find the answers and move on
                                  to the next ones, as the answers always change the more you develop -
                                  or, just the more you live! I think that a religion, and
                                  Eckankar,too, makes us believe that we have attained everything and
                                  found the truth. Even if they say that they have still to unfold,
                                  there's that feeling "I have finally arrived and everything will be
                                  ok". And this feels good, of course! And it's not easy to move on
                                  when we find out that this is not so ...


                                  >
                                  >
                                  > > I have noticed that the anger/defensiveness occurs the strongest
                                  > with those who have the weakest belief systems or theories that
                                  they
                                  > are promoting! I guess this is so, because there is no real basis
                                  in
                                  > fact to what they are buying into! It's all speculation--their own
                                  > or someone else's that they want to believe! Maybe, they are
                                  > fighting their own subconscious that knows better and they are
                                  > frustrated. The argument is not really with those who are not
                                  > agreeing with them, but actually within their own selves. Well,
                                  > that's just a guess!

                                  Yes, I agree with that. The more open people are, the more they will
                                  respect people with different beliefs. Eckists are often just
                                  parroting what they are reading, but they have not realized it with
                                  themselves. Ah, yes - even some HCS members are like that. Did you
                                  notice that Mario, in his last post, sounded exactly like HK in his
                                  wisdom notes and talks? It really struck me, and I had to kind of
                                  chuckle. ;-))

                                  > I agree! Either on a Soul level or a subconscious or even on an
                                  > unconscious level of awareness one's Self sees through the facade
                                  > and distortions that are created by ego as a matter of convenience
                                  > or security for peace of mind. Everyones' ego are seeking that
                                  > comfort level to deal with their own limited reality and with
                                  > portions of the realities of others. Usually people tend to group
                                  > together in order to bolster the ego's belief in the facsimiles
                                  of
                                  > similar creations.

                                  Yes, because it feels so good to belong! I can confirm that it feels
                                  very good to belong!
                                  Ingrid
                                • prometheus_973
                                  Hi Ingrid, Actually, the carrot of initiation has many levels for each Eckist. ... create Heaven on Earth. Klemp s claim is what... to give spiritual freedom
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Jul 17 9:20 AM
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                                    Hi Ingrid,
                                    Actually, the carrot of initiation has many levels for each Eckist.

                                    Prometheus wrote:
                                    >>Maharishi and Klemp were just full of hot air. TM's con is to
                                    create "Heaven on Earth." Klemp's claim is what... to give spiritual
                                    freedom through Eck mastership? But one needs the 10th Initiation
                                    for Eck "Mastership" and that doesn't happen on the physical plane
                                    unless your male and are the Living Eck Master! Promises! Promises!

                                    Ingrid wrote:
                                    >Prometheus, I think you have gotten that wrong. ;-) It's not
                                    through Eck mastership because nobody will ever attain it for HK is
                                    glued to his seat, but the promise is to not have to come back to
                                    this "lower" world full of sh ... but to sit happily on a cloud on
                                    the soul plane or even higher! ;-)) (well, that's a bit simplified,
                                    I know, but what the heck, I couldn't resist this one ;-)) ).

                                    ***True, nobody except Klemp (or his male replacements) will ever
                                    attain "Eck mastership." But there are different promises for each
                                    initiation level. With the 2nd thru 4th initiations it's not having
                                    to return to earth for future incarnations. At the 5th it's also
                                    being established on the 5th "Soul" Plane, having past life karma
                                    resolved, and reaching Self or Soul Realization/Consciousness. The
                                    6th and 7th initiations offer Spiritual Realization (and "settler"
                                    positions) and a step closer to the golden carrot of God Realization
                                    (Eck Mastership) and spiritual liberation. However, the more
                                    initiations and years of delusion tends to take its toll on one's
                                    ability to see/think more clearly (without Mahanta dependence).
                                    Eckists on these initiation levels, especially the 7th and 8th, tend
                                    to see themselves on higher "inner" initiation levels too. Actually,
                                    there are many Eckists on even lower initiation levels who see
                                    themselves on "higher inner" initiation levels. Rationalizing is how
                                    the typical Eckist is able to wait those long years inbetween
                                    initiations. And, for those hitting the glass ceiling of the 7th the
                                    ability to rationalize and dream of Eck mastership is of utmost
                                    importance in order to continue the delusion. Eckists are taught to
                                    be co-dependent on the outer/inner "Master," through contradictions
                                    (i.e., self-reliance) and deception (i.e., spiritual freedom and Eck
                                    Mastership). As I pointed out before in regards to the Masters 4
                                    Discourse Lesson 2 on the Nineth Initiation... there are three
                                    stages and the third and final stage to that initiation is
                                    confirmation on the outer! Therefore, wouldn't all initiations have
                                    the same requirements? How then can Eckists think that they
                                    are "higher" than their membership cards indicate? This is the same
                                    kind of delusion that is prevalent, necessary, and required to
                                    follow all of the Eck dogma! Silly isn't it! But, if one doesn't
                                    have anything better to replace it (Eckankar) with then it does give
                                    a false sense of security. It's really too bad that true spiritual
                                    freedom from Twitchell's and Klemp's con is only achieved when one
                                    sees through the deceit, sees real truth and then has the courage to
                                    act on it!



                                    >Eckankar helped us a lot to become deluded ... apart from meeting
                                    really nice people in Eckankar, it was also in Eckankar that I met
                                    the most deluded people.



                                    ***True, I met some very nice people and some as deluded as I was! I
                                    also met a lot of social misfits that "hid out" with their higher
                                    initiations. Most Eckists will overlook "quirky behavior" if that
                                    person is an H.I.



                                    >Eckists are often just parroting what they are reading, but they
                                    have not realized it with themselves. Ah, yes - even some HCS
                                    members are like that. Did you notice that Mario, in his last post,
                                    sounded exactly like HK in his wisdom notes and talks? It really
                                    struck me, and I had to kind of chuckle. ;-))


                                    ***Yes, Mario is extremely quirky! I found it interesting that Ford
                                    allows him to post his innuendo's and veiled threats while typically
                                    Not contributing anything of spiritual value or of higher
                                    consciousness. One has to wonder if this is Ford's Archilles heel,
                                    or if something else is taking place. Why is it that B&M can do no
                                    wrong when they are so wrong! What's Ford's game in turning a blind
                                    eye to their misbehavior and the cult/con promotions?

                                    Prometheus
                                  • mishmisha9
                                    Hi, Prometheus! I like your analysis! Thanks for sharing this! : ) Mish Prometheus wrote: This time Klemp tells about Rumi and his teacher the ECK Master
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Jul 17 1:34 PM
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                                      Hi, Prometheus!

                                      I like your analysis! Thanks for sharing this! : )

                                      Mish

                                      Prometheus wrote:


                                      This time Klemp tells about Rumi and his teacher the ECK Master
                                      Shamus-i-Tabriz.

                                      To recap: In the June 2005 Mystic World Klemp talked about Milarepa
                                      (11th Century) and his beer drinking, difficult, and secret (newly
                                      created) ECK Master Marpa. By the way, were the Four Zoas (laws) of
                                      Eckankar in effect then? Beer drinking (alcohol) for ECK Masters
                                      (High Initiates) is forbidden according to the 1st Zoa (Shariyat 2,
                                      pg.283). Therefore, was Marpa really still qualified to initiate
                                      Milarepa and was Milarepa therefore qualified to be the
                                      L.E.M./Mahanta and so on and so forth for all of those afterwards?
                                      Remember, this is pre-Rebazar (excuse) too! Harold stuck his foot in
                                      his mouth it would seem. Eckists seem to turn a deaf ear and blind
                                      eye to it all while numbly and mindlessly trusting that these words
                                      don't really indicate a flaw in logic or dogma. Why was Klemp so
                                      stupid to mention this! It's because he's so arrogant and secure
                                      with his delusions! Eckists will believe anything and everything
                                      their leader tells them. Of course, we former Eckists know that
                                      Twitch was the first to make it all up as the 1st L.E.M., and Klemp
                                      continues the con. Maybe he just needs to use the excuse of "Catch-
                                      22!"

                                      It seems Klemp's whole purpose in mentioning this "history" of ECK
                                      Masters in both publications is to compete with and top "Sri"
                                      Michael Owens (thewayoftruth.com)! I found it interesting that Klemp
                                      states, "Shamus was a hard teacher." Klemp is not only attempting to
                                      re-enforce his (Klemp's) authenticity and authority, but also to
                                      justify his hard-handedness to the entire Eckankar membership.
                                      According to Klemp, Mapa was a "difficult" teacher, Shamus was
                                      a "hard" teacher; therefore, HK must be hellish! Actually, Klemp is
                                      just B.S.ing Eckists to make it seem that his unloving harshness,
                                      censorship, and control tactics are for one's own good. It's not
                                      true, of course. Klemp only has the power Eckists give him! Eckists
                                      have allowed Klemp to entrap their own Souls!

                                      Here's an interesting quote: "Shamus met him in the marketplace, and
                                      this encounter threw Rumi into a daze. It vaulted him to a greater
                                      state of consciousness. What mortal enjoyed such divine power as
                                      Shamus?" Well, since the Eckankar Lexicon states that Shamus was the
                                      L.E.M./Mahanta, then it seems Klemp is putting himself right up
                                      there too! Rumi, on the other hand, was just "a follower of ECK"
                                      (Eckankar Lexicon, pg. 102) and not even an Eck Master. This is why
                                      Klemp states that Rumi just experienced "a greater state of
                                      consciousness" instead of God-Realization. If HK had stated that
                                      Rumi had experienced God-Realization, then Rumi would have to be
                                      listed as more than just "a follower of ECK" in the Eckankar
                                      Lexicon. At least Klemp got that part of his tale correct! Still, it
                                      seems HK is also giving credence to his own 1970 "daze" to again
                                      validate his qualifications and to give his words merit. This is
                                      brain washing at its best. . . very subtle and not so forceful like
                                      Scientology. Still, there is that Twitchell connection to the
                                      Scientology cult!

                                      I found it interesting that Owens' site has a section that has Rumi
                                      talking as though he is still with us! Klemp, however, makes three
                                      distinct speculations about what happened to Shamus after he left
                                      Rumi. Klemp makes statements like: "other speculation; no one really
                                      knows; there are said; A third reason that Shamus may have left"
                                      etc. Klemp even suggests that Shamus could have been murdered by
                                      Rumi's disciples! Actually, Klemp seems to know what Shamus was
                                      thinking by describing it (at first) in terms that Judge Judy (of TV
                                      fame) might use, but then HK starts to backpedal and
                                      speculate. "Rumi, he felt needed 'to be cooked' by separation. After
                                      all, his first departure had seen in Rumi a far greater devotion to
                                      God. Yet he still leaned too heavily on Shamus; it was holding him
                                      back spiritually, so Shamus may have decided to pop Rumi back in the
                                      oven."

                                      Now this is interesting! Here Klemp states that Rumi could only
                                      become fully "cooked" spiritually if he was separated from his
                                      Master. So, since Rumi was unwilling to leave or say good-bye then
                                      Shamus did the right thing and let him go by walking away. . .
                                      maybe. Or maybe Shamus was assassinated! Two things come to mind.
                                      Why doesn't Klemp (the Mahanta) know the truth about Shamus since
                                      Shamus also possessed the Mahanta consciousness? Klemp screwed that
                                      up, didn't he! And secondly, why doesn't Klemp let his H.I.s go and
                                      allow them to become more fully "cooked" since he is, apparently,
                                      holding them "back spiritually!" "And so there we leave it."


                                      After this article is a small box that states: "The goal of an H.I.
                                      get-together is to strengthen you in your common purpose: to assist,
                                      through outer service, the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master in his
                                      mission to show Soul the way home to God." --Shree Klempster

                                      Now why doesn't Klemp just say what an H.I. "get-together" really
                                      is? It's a TRAINING, People! Klemp doesn't even capitalize "get-
                                      together" since it's to be thought of as a social gathering of
                                      sorts, but it's not! Yes, Eckists are now realizing their true goal
                                      and mission as pseudo Eck Masters in training (forever) is not God-
                                      Realization, but to recruit more paying members! Who'd a thunk!

                                      Prometheus
                                    • ctecvie
                                      Hello Prometheus, ... Oh yes, I forgot. Too complicated for my limited brain! ;-) ... Realization ... By that time, the Mahanta dependency is so great that
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Jul 19 2:47 AM
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                                        Hello Prometheus,

                                        > ***True, nobody except Klemp (or his male replacements) will ever
                                        > attain "Eck mastership." But there are different promises for each
                                        > initiation level.

                                        Oh yes, I forgot. Too complicated for my limited brain! ;-)

                                        > With the 2nd thru 4th initiations it's not having
                                        > to return to earth for future incarnations. At the 5th it's also
                                        > being established on the 5th "Soul" Plane, having past life karma
                                        > resolved, and reaching Self or Soul Realization/Consciousness. The
                                        > 6th and 7th initiations offer Spiritual Realization (and "settler"
                                        > positions) and a step closer to the golden carrot of God
                                        Realization
                                        > (Eck Mastership) and spiritual liberation. However, the more
                                        > initiations and years of delusion tends to take its toll on one's
                                        > ability to see/think more clearly (without Mahanta dependence).

                                        By that time, the Mahanta dependency is so great that you'd rather
                                        not contemplate anything critical any more. Because it's difficult to
                                        let go of all the years and years of serious work to become a co-
                                        worker with God and the mahanta. I know a 6th initiate who, after
                                        having read Ford Johnson's book and getting into serious doubts about
                                        Eckankar, eventually went back to Eckankar. He has received his 7th
                                        by now, and I hope he is happy now where he is. I let him know that I
                                        didn't understand how it was possible that after all he knew, to go
                                        back to Eckankar. Well, that was when I was still a bit naive! Today,
                                        I understand that people feel the need to go back. Now, I am better
                                        able to wish them well and to let them go.


                                        > Eckists on these initiation levels, especially the 7th and 8th,
                                        tend
                                        > to see themselves on higher "inner" initiation levels too.

                                        Yes there was a long-time eckist who, due to personal circumstances,
                                        was a 2nd initiate only. She thought herself much higher than her
                                        outer initiation. While I can understand that this happens, I
                                        couldn't really follow her in this case - she thought she had reached
                                        initiation level 20 or higher. That was definitely too high for me! :-
                                        )

                                        > Eckists are taught to
                                        > be co-dependent on the outer/inner "Master," through contradictions
                                        > (i.e., self-reliance) and deception (i.e., spiritual freedom and
                                        Eck
                                        > Mastership).

                                        Oh yes this is so. And that's what I consider as spiritual crime by
                                        Harold Klemp.

                                        > As I pointed out before in regards to the Masters 4
                                        > Discourse Lesson 2 on the Nineth Initiation... there are three
                                        > stages and the third and final stage to that initiation is
                                        > confirmation on the outer! Therefore, wouldn't all initiations have
                                        > the same requirements? How then can Eckists think that they
                                        > are "higher" than their membership cards indicate? This is the same
                                        > kind of delusion that is prevalent, necessary, and required to
                                        > follow all of the Eck dogma! Silly isn't it!

                                        Silly and tragic at the same time! But, we all are where we need to
                                        be at the moment. I think that if Eckists are well informed about the
                                        critics that exist about Eckankar, and if they still choose it to be
                                        their path, then so it be. But there are so many out there who have
                                        no idea about what Eckankar is really about. And they truly believe
                                        and this belief and the love they put into the path are abused.
                                        That's a crime!

                                        >But, if one doesn't
                                        > have anything better to replace it (Eckankar) with then it does
                                        give
                                        > a false sense of security. It's really too bad that true spiritual
                                        > freedom from Twitchell's and Klemp's con is only achieved when one
                                        > sees through the deceit, sees real truth and then has the courage
                                        to
                                        > act on it!

                                        > ***True, I met some very nice people and some as deluded as I was!

                                        Me, too! ;-)

                                        >I
                                        > also met a lot of social misfits that "hid out" with their higher
                                        > initiations. Most Eckists will overlook "quirky behavior" if that
                                        > person is an H.I.

                                        How true! I know of resas (as do you, too, I believe) who really
                                        exercise strict power in their country. They boost certain people
                                        they like in the region, while they ignore people they don't like. Of
                                        course this is very human behavior, but it needs to be acknowledged
                                        as such and not hid behind pretentions of "higher development". This
                                        is where deceit begins in my opinion.


                                        > ***Yes, Mario is extremely quirky! I found it interesting that Ford
                                        > allows him to post his innuendo's and veiled threats while
                                        typically
                                        > Not contributing anything of spiritual value or of higher
                                        > consciousness. One has to wonder if this is Ford's Archilles heel,
                                        > or if something else is taking place. Why is it that B&M can do no
                                        > wrong when they are so wrong! What's Ford's game in turning a blind
                                        > eye to their misbehavior and the cult/con promotions?

                                        Well, at the moment all is quiet. Are they rethinking the issue or
                                        just planning another strategy? :-)
                                        Ingrid
                                      • prometheus_973
                                        Hi Ingrid, ... attain Eck mastership. But there are different promises for each initiation level. ... No no, it is somewhat complicated, but not too much for
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Jul 19 1:33 PM
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                                          Hi Ingrid,


                                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "ctecvie"
                                          <ctecvie@y...> wrote:
                                          >Hello Prometheus,

                                          >***True, nobody except Klemp (or his male replacements) will ever
                                          attain "Eck mastership." But there are different promises for each
                                          initiation level.

                                          >Oh yes, I forgot. Too complicated for my limited brain! ;-)

                                          No no, it is somewhat complicated, but not too much for you to
                                          understand. One just needs more years of indoctrination and intense
                                          brainwashing of the dogma. That's what those leadership classes are
                                          for!


                                          >***With the 2nd thru 4th initiations it's not having to return to
                                          earth for future incarnations. At the 5th it's also being
                                          established on the 5th "Soul" Plane, having past life karma
                                          resolved, and reaching Self or Soul Realization/Consciousness. The
                                          6th and 7th initiations offer Spiritual Realization (and
                                          higher "settler" positions) and a step closer to the golden carrot
                                          of God Realization Eck Mastership) and spiritual liberation.
                                          However, the more initiations and years of delusion tends to take
                                          its toll on one's ability to see/think more clearly (without Mahanta
                                          dependence).

                                          >By that time, the Mahanta dependency is so great that you'd rather
                                          not contemplate anything critical any more. Because it's difficult
                                          to let go of all the years and years of serious work to become a co-
                                          worker with God and the mahanta. I know a 6th initiate who, after
                                          having read Ford Johnson's book and getting into serious doubts
                                          about Eckankar, eventually went back to Eckankar. He has received
                                          his 7th by now, and I hope he is happy now where he is. I let him
                                          know that I didn't understand how it was possible that after all he
                                          knew, to go back to Eckankar. Well, that was when I was still a bit
                                          naive! Today, I understand that people feel the need to go back.
                                          Now, I am better able to wish them well and to let them go.

                                          True, critical thinking in regards to Eckankar has been eliminated
                                          due to total acceptance and trust. One no longer has to think. It's
                                          like being in the military and doing what you are told. Eckankar
                                          even has a hierarchy like the military does. Klemp did say that he
                                          enjoyed his time in the U.S. Air Force, and in the Luthern seminary
                                          in went to as well.

                                          If this 6th initiate let anyone know that he had read Ford's book
                                          and had doubts about Eckankar... then I'm not so sure that he has
                                          received his 7th by now. If I was his RESA I'd have put him on a
                                          five year probation!

                                          >***Eckists on these initiation levels, especially the 7th and 8th,
                                          tend to see themselves on higher "inner" initiation levels too.

                                          >Yes there was a long-time eckist who, due to personal
                                          circumstances, was a 2nd initiate only. She thought herself much
                                          higher than her outer initiation. While I can understand that this
                                          happens, I couldn't really follow her in this case - she thought she
                                          had reached initiation level 20 or higher. That was definitely too
                                          high for me! :-)

                                          Yes, there are many long time lower initiate Eckists out there that
                                          are vain and deluded. They don't keep up with their paid memberships
                                          and they don't take satsang classes and they don't volunteer and yet
                                          they think they have higher inner initiations, and even higher than
                                          what Klemp even claims to have. They really don't get it! One has to
                                          buy into the whole package and abide by all of the dogma and
                                          guidelines instead of picking and choosing what one's deluded ego
                                          wants to believe. Funny, but there are many higher initiates that
                                          are just as bad with their own egomania and self-deceptions.

                                          >***Eckists are taught to be co-dependent on the
                                          outer/inner "Master," through contradictions (i.e., self-reliance)
                                          and deception (i.e., spiritual freedom and Eck Mastership).

                                          >Oh yes this is so. And that's what I consider as spiritual crime by
                                          Harold Klemp.

                                          True, HK is a spiritual criminal!

                                          >***As I pointed out before in regards to the Masters 4 Discourse
                                          Lesson 2 on the Nineth Initiation... there are three stages and the
                                          third and final stage to that initiation is confirmation on the
                                          outer! Therefore, wouldn't all initiations have the same
                                          requirements? How then can Eckists think that they are "higher" than
                                          their membership cards indicate? This is the same kind of delusion
                                          that is prevalent, necessary, and required to follow all of the Eck
                                          dogma! Silly isn't it!

                                          >Silly and tragic at the same time! But, we all are where we need to
                                          be at the moment. I think that if Eckists are well informed about
                                          the critics that exist about Eckankar, and if they still choose it
                                          to be their path, then so it be. But there are so many out there who
                                          have no idea about what Eckankar is really about. And they truly
                                          believe and this belief and the love they put into the path are
                                          abused. That's a crime!

                                          Yes, Eckists should not be afraid to read something that is critical
                                          of Eckankar or of Klemp. They just need to read the material with an
                                          open mind and contemplate on whether it makes sense or contains some
                                          truth that should be researched further.

                                          >***But, if one doesn't have anything better to replace it
                                          (Eckankar) with then it does give a false sense of security. It's
                                          really too bad that true spiritual freedom from Twitchell's and
                                          Klemp's con is only achieved when one sees through the deceit, sees
                                          real truth and then has the courage to act on it!

                                          >***True, I met some very nice people and some as deluded as I was!

                                          >Me, too! ;-)

                                          >***I also met a lot of social misfits that "hid out" with their
                                          higher initiations. Most Eckists will overlook "quirky behavior" if
                                          that person is an H.I.

                                          >How true! I know of resas (as do you, too, I believe) who really
                                          exercise strict power in their country. They boost certain people
                                          they like in the region, while they ignore people they don't like.
                                          Of course this is very human behavior, but it needs to be
                                          acknowledged as such and not hid behind pretentions of "higher
                                          development". This is where deceit begins in my opinion.

                                          Yes, I know very strict RESAs who follow the guidelines precisely,
                                          very permissive ones who follow the guidelines loosely and delegate
                                          everything, and those who are a combination of both. All, however,
                                          seem to have their favorites for one reason or another.


                                          >***Yes, Mario is extremely quirky! I found it interesting that Ford
                                          allows him to post his innuendo's and veiled threats while typically
                                          Not contributing anything of spiritual value or of higher
                                          consciousness. One has to wonder if this is Ford's Archilles heel,
                                          or if something else is taking place. Why is it that B&M can do no
                                          wrong when they are so wrong! What's Ford's game in turning a blind
                                          eye to their misbehavior and the cult/con promotions?

                                          >Well, at the moment all is quiet. Are they rethinking the issue or
                                          just planning another strategy? :-)

                                          I would say that they are preparing a couple of very long posts on
                                          the current TS/HCS topic in order to justify their past positions
                                          and to tie it all into some kind of spiritual/educational mission.
                                          Just a guess!

                                          Prometheus
                                        • ctecvie
                                          Hello Prometheus, ... intense ... are ... Indeed! When I started the leadership training, I didn t know that my leaving was only a few weeks ahead. So I had 2
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Jul 20 9:19 AM
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                                            Hello Prometheus,


                                            > No no, it is somewhat complicated, but not too much for you to
                                            > understand. One just needs more years of indoctrination and
                                            intense
                                            > brainwashing of the dogma. That's what those leadership classes
                                            are
                                            > for!

                                            Indeed! When I started the leadership training, I didn't know that
                                            my leaving was only a few weeks ahead. So I had 2 of those trainings
                                            and the handbook of course. What I found good was that you could
                                            concentrate on something positive in your day-to-day life because
                                            the exercises were meant to be made between the trainings. But, of
                                            course then there was that recruiting aspect - selling the teachings
                                            to others. I was really glad that I didn't get far enough to be
                                            really "trained". Before I gave away the book, I read it till the
                                            end and I know I couldn't have put up with those techniques. So I am
                                            glad I found Confessions - but I think either way, I wouldn't have
                                            lasted much longer in Eckankar. In any case it would have been a
                                            book that would have brought me away - hadn't it been Confessions,
                                            it would have been the leadership handbook for sure! ;-)

                                            > True, critical thinking in regards to Eckankar has been eliminated
                                            > due to total acceptance and trust. One no longer has to think.
                                            It's
                                            > like being in the military and doing what you are told. Eckankar
                                            > even has a hierarchy like the military does. Klemp did say that he
                                            > enjoyed his time in the U.S. Air Force, and in the Luthern
                                            seminary
                                            > in went to as well.

                                            HK talks about his military career quite a bit indeed as far as I
                                            remember. And, of course, you don't ask because you get everything
                                            on the inner. By the way, I have read recently that Kirpal Singh,
                                            Paul's master whom Paul forgot to acknowledge later on, didn't think
                                            very highly about experiences or soul travel in dreams. He rated the
                                            conscious travels - in the waking state much higher because he
                                            thought dreams couldn't really be relied upon. Interesting aspect
                                            for me!

                                            >Funny, but there are many higher initiates that
                                            > are just as bad with their own egomania and self-deceptions.

                                            Well, good and long practice ... ;-)

                                            > >***But, if one doesn't have anything better to replace it
                                            > (Eckankar) with then it does give a false sense of security.

                                            There are people who wouldn't have anything left without the
                                            teachings. It would be cruel to take it from them, and if they are
                                            ready to take the step, then it's a huge difficulty for them, which
                                            I understand. Not easy at all, and a lot of courage is needed!

                                            Ingrid
                                          • ctecvie
                                            Hello Prometheus, ... I don t know how many knew of this. He had told us about Ford Johnson and thus contributed a great deal to our leaving and spiritual
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Jul 20 9:30 AM
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                                              Hello Prometheus,

                                              I forgot one comment in my previous post:

                                              > If this 6th initiate let anyone know that he had read Ford's book
                                              > and had doubts about Eckankar... then I'm not so sure that he has
                                              > received his 7th by now. If I was his RESA I'd have put him on a
                                              > five year probation!

                                              I don't know how many knew of this. He had told us about Ford
                                              Johnson and thus contributed a great deal to our leaving and
                                              spiritual liberation. :-) He then told me personally that he would
                                              not leave Eckankar because Ford's path was based on destruction and
                                              that this was something PT hadn't done. I told him that if he
                                              thought that all the lies were better, well ... And I told him that
                                              I would not congratulate him on the 7th (because he had received it
                                              by then) because due to the knowledge gained from reading Ford's
                                              book, he must know that this isn't worth anything. I haven't heard
                                              from him much since. It's a pity because he is a beautiful
                                              individual and very smart. Well, that's life I guess! :-))

                                              Ingrid
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