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Re: Eckankar: The H.I. Letter June 2005

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  • ctecvie
    Hello Prometheus, thank you for your analysis, I enjoyed it thoroughly as always. :-) ... Milarepa ... of ... 2, ... It was too early, Prometheus ...! :-) I
    Message 1 of 23 , Jul 11, 2005
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      Hello Prometheus,

      thank you for your analysis, I enjoyed it thoroughly as always. :-)

      > To recap: In the June 2005 Mystic World Klemp talked about
      Milarepa
      > (11th Century) and his beer drinking, difficult, and secret (newly
      > created) ECK Master Marpa. By the way, were the Four Zoas (laws)
      of
      > Eckankar in effect then? Beer drinking (alcohol) for ECK Masters
      > (High Initiates) is forbidden according to the 1st Zoa (Shariyat
      2,
      > pg.283).

      It was too early, Prometheus ...! :-) I think there were not enough
      masters so they took what they could get, beer-drinking or not. ;-)
      Like the initiations given in Paul's times - some Eckists even got
      two on the same day (the fourth and the fifth!)!

      > Therefore, was Marpa really still qualified to initiate
      > Milarepa and was Milarepa therefore qualified to be the
      > L.E.M./Mahanta and so on and so forth for all of those afterwards?
      > Remember, this is pre-Rebazar (excuse) too! Harold stuck his foot
      in
      > his mouth it would seem. Eckists seem to turn a deaf ear and blind
      > eye to it all while numbly and mindlessly trusting that these
      words
      > don't really indicate a flaw in logic or dogma. Why was Klemp so
      > stupid to mention this! It's because he's so arrogant and secure
      > with his delusions! Eckists will believe anything and everything
      > their leader tells them.

      They do indeed. Remember, it's so "spiritual". Just don't ask
      questions - it's too mental, and don't criticize!

      > Of course, we former Eckists know that
      > Twitch was the first to make it all up as the 1st L.E.M., and
      Klemp
      > continues the con. Maybe he just needs to use the excuse of "Catch-
      > 22!"

      There are also Eckists who have heard of that. And they continue to
      believe - well, that's too much for me to understand! My brain is
      just not big enough. :-)

      >
      > It seems Klemp's whole purpose in mentioning this "history" of ECK
      > Masters in both publications is to compete with and top "Sri"
      > Michael Owens (thewayoftruth.com)! I found it interesting that
      Klemp
      > states, "Shamus was a hard teacher." Klemp is not only attempting
      to
      > re-enforce his (Klemp's) authenticity and authority, but also to
      > justify his hard-handedness to the entire Eckankar membership.
      > According to Klemp, Mapa was a "difficult" teacher, Shamus was
      > a "hard" teacher; therefore, HK must be hellish!

      Indeed he is with all the BS he is promoting ...

      > Actually, Klemp is
      > just B.S.ing Eckists to make it seem that his unloving harshness,
      > censorship, and control tactics are for one's own good. It's not
      > true, of course. Klemp only has the power Eckists give him!
      Eckists
      > have allowed Klemp to entrap their own Souls!

      It's difficult to see when you are in it. But when you are out of
      it, nothing can stop us to see it crystal clearly!

      >
      > Here's an interesting quote: "Shamus met him in the marketplace,
      and
      > this encounter threw Rumi into a daze. It vaulted him to a greater
      > state of consciousness. What mortal enjoyed such divine power as
      > Shamus?" Well, since the Eckankar Lexicon states that Shamus was
      the
      > L.E.M./Mahanta, then it seems Klemp is putting himself right up
      > there too! Rumi, on the other hand, was just "a follower of ECK"
      > (Eckankar Lexicon, pg. 102) and not even an Eck Master.

      He was not?! I thought he was! But I was ever so confused by all
      those masters ...

      > This is why
      > Klemp states that Rumi just experienced "a greater state of
      > consciousness" instead of God-Realization. If HK had stated that
      > Rumi had experienced God-Realization, then Rumi would have to be
      > listed as more than just "a follower of ECK" in the Eckankar
      > Lexicon. At least Klemp got that part of his tale correct! Still,
      it
      > seems HK is also giving credence to his own 1970 "daze" to again
      > validate his qualifications and to give his words merit. This is
      > brain washing at its best. . . very subtle and not so forceful
      like
      > Scientology. Still, there is that Twitchell connection to the
      > Scientology cult!

      You know that initiates at Twitchell's time were not so highly
      developed than nowadays ... that's what Eckankar says. Well, the
      same seems to be the case with the Eck masters!

      >
      > I found it interesting that Owens' site has a section that has
      Rumi
      > talking as though he is still with us! Klemp, however, makes three
      > distinct speculations about what happened to Shamus after he left
      > Rumi. Klemp makes statements like: "other speculation; no one
      really
      > knows; there are said; A third reason that Shamus may have left"
      > etc. Klemp even suggests that Shamus could have been murdered by
      > Rumi's disciples! Actually, Klemp seems to know what Shamus was
      > thinking by describing it (at first) in terms that Judge Judy (of
      TV
      > fame) might use, but then HK starts to backpedal and
      > speculate. "Rumi, he felt needed 'to be cooked' by separation.
      After
      > all, his first departure had seen in Rumi a far greater devotion
      to
      > God. Yet he still leaned too heavily on Shamus; it was holding him
      > back spiritually, so Shamus may have decided to pop Rumi back in
      the
      > oven."

      How many seekers is HK holding back?! This is a spiritual crime ...

      >
      > Now this is interesting! Here Klemp states that Rumi could only
      > become fully "cooked" spiritually if he was separated from his
      > Master. So, since Rumi was unwilling to leave or say good-bye then
      > Shamus did the right thing and let him go by walking away. . .
      > maybe. Or maybe Shamus was assassinated! Two things come to mind.
      > Why doesn't Klemp (the Mahanta) know the truth about Shamus since
      > Shamus also possessed the Mahanta consciousness? Klemp screwed
      that
      > up, didn't he!

      Nobody will ever ask because you don't ask the mahanta! Even if it's
      ever so illogical, nobody will question HK, the godman!

      > And secondly, why doesn't Klemp let his H.I.s go and
      > allow them to become more fully "cooked" since he is, apparently,
      > holding them "back spiritually!" "And so there we leave it."

      He uses more threats than ever to keep his followers ...
      >
      >
      > After this article is a small box that states: "The goal of an
      H.I.
      > get-together is to strengthen you in your common purpose: to
      assist,
      > through outer service, the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master in his
      > mission to show Soul the way home to God." --Shree Klempster
      >
      > Now why doesn't Klemp just say what an H.I. "get-together" really
      > is? It's a TRAINING, People! Klemp doesn't even capitalize "get-
      > together" since it's to be thought of as a social gathering of
      > sorts, but it's not! Yes, Eckists are now realizing their true
      goal
      > and mission as pseudo Eck Masters in training (forever) is not God-
      > Realization, but to recruit more paying members! Who'd a thunk!

      It's disguised as a get-together. But remember - Eckists don't
      socialize when they meet! It's not for "social" purposes that
      eckists meet, just for "spiritual" ones. Eckankar doesn't like to
      call their get-togethers "social"! So, apparently they are admitting
      that it's for some other purpose they are getting together ...

      Ingrid
    • mishmisha9
      Prometheus, Since Klemp uses the term fully cooked in his H.I. Letter, do you think he actually watches Judge Judy? I didn t think Harold watched TV, because
      Message 2 of 23 , Jul 13, 2005
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        Prometheus,

        Since Klemp uses the term "fully cooked" in his H.I. Letter, do you
        think he actually watches Judge Judy? I didn't think Harold watched
        TV, because he suffers from that weird EMR disease. But perhaps that
        is just a Klemp myth--a sort of conspiracy created to keep Eckists
        away from TVs and computers where they might be exposed to the
        Truth??? It seems to be a disease that Eckists do contract--I
        learned of at least two having it before leaving Eckankar! Curious
        that they both are H.I.s--those higher vibrations are so sensitive,
        aren't they! : )

        Mish

        Prometheus wrote:

        Klemp even suggests that Shamus could have been murdered by
        > Rumi's disciples! Actually, Klemp seems to know what Shamus was
        > thinking by describing it (at first) in terms that Judge Judy (of
        TV
        > fame) might use, but then HK starts to backpedal and
        > speculate. "Rumi, he felt needed 'to be cooked' by separation.
        After
        > all, his first departure had seen in Rumi a far greater devotion
        to
        > God. Yet he still leaned too heavily on Shamus; it was holding him
        > back spiritually, so Shamus may have decided to pop Rumi back in
        the
        > oven."
        >
        > Now this is interesting! Here Klemp states that Rumi could only
        > become fully "cooked" spiritually if he was separated from his
        > Master. So, since Rumi was unwilling to leave or say good-bye then
        > Shamus did the right thing and let him go by walking away. . .
        > maybe. Or maybe Shamus was assassinated! Two things come to mind.
        > Why doesn't Klemp (the Mahanta) know the truth about Shamus since
        > Shamus also possessed the Mahanta consciousness? Klemp screwed
        that
        > up, didn't he! And secondly, why doesn't Klemp let his H.I.s go
        and
        > allow them to become more fully "cooked" since he is, apparently,
        > holding them "back spiritually!" "And so there we leave it."
        >
      • prometheus_973
        Hi Ingrid, ... thank you for your analysis, I enjoyed it thoroughly as always. :- ... Milarepa (11th Century) and his beer drinking, difficult, and secret
        Message 3 of 23 , Jul 13, 2005
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          Hi Ingrid,

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "ctecvie"
          <ctecvie@y...> wrote:
          >Hello Prometheus,
          thank you for your analysis, I enjoyed it thoroughly as always. :-

          >>To recap: In the June 2005 Mystic World Klemp talked about
          Milarepa (11th Century) and his beer drinking, difficult, and secret
          (newly created) ECK Master Marpa. By the way, were the Four Zoas
          (laws) of Eckankar in effect then? Beer drinking (alcohol) for ECK
          Masters (High Initiates) is forbidden according to the 1st Zoa
          (Shariyat 2, pg.283).

          >It was too early, Prometheus ...! :-) I think there were not enough
          masters so they took what they could get, beer-drinking or not. ;-)
          Like the initiations given in Paul's times - some Eckists even got
          two on the same day (the fourth and the fifth!)!

          *Actually, according to Twitchell's Eckankar Dictionary these so
          called "ECK (Eckankar) Masters" have been around for thousands of
          years. Just look at Gakko, Rama, and Malati! So, therefore, what
          ever happened to quality over quanity? This is the biggest flaw that
          Eckankar, HCS, and all other organizations and religions have. Then
          again, a bigger flaw is that they don't seem to care either!


          >>Therefore, was Marpa really still qualified to initiate Milarepa
          and was Milarepa therefore qualified to be the L.E.M./Mahanta and so
          on and so forth for all of those afterwards? Remember, this is pre-
          Rebazar (excuse) too! Harold stuck his foot in his mouth it would
          seem. Eckists seem to turn a deaf ear and blind eye to it all while
          numbly and mindlessly trusting that these words don't really
          indicate a flaw in logic or dogma. Why was Klemp so stupid to
          mention this! It's because he's so arrogant and secure with his
          delusions! Eckists will believe anything and everything their leader
          tells them.

          >They do indeed. Remember, it's so "spiritual". Just don't ask
          questions - it's too mental, and don't criticize!

          *Yes, Eckists shouldn't be Astral (plane) and emotional or Mental
          (plane) and so analytical as to question the leadership. There is a
          stigma to conform and those who don't understand and follow this
          don't get the initiations. But, many Eckists are just happy with the
          promises of the 2nd Initiation and not having to return in another
          lifetime! These are carefree Souls who are not fully committed to
          all of the dogma or guidelines (trainings, etc.).

          >>Of course, we former Eckists know that Twitch was the first to
          make it all up as the 1st L.E.M., and Klemp continues the con. Maybe
          he just needs to use the excuse of "Catch-22!"

          >There are also Eckists who have heard of that. And they continue to
          believe - well, that's too much for me to understand! My brain is
          just not big enough. :-)


          >>It seems Klemp's whole purpose in mentioning this "history" of ECK
          Masters in both publications is to compete with and top "Sri"
          Michael Owens (thewayoftruth.com)! I found it interesting that Klemp
          states, "Shamus was a hard teacher." Klemp is not only attempting to
          re-enforce his (Klemp's) authenticity and authority, but also to
          justify his hard-handedness to the entire Eckankar membership.
          According to Klemp, Mapa was a "difficult" teacher, Shamus was
          a "hard" teacher; therefore, HK must be hellish!

          >Indeed he is with all the BS he is promoting ...

          >>Actually, Klemp is just B.S.ing Eckists to make it seem that his
          unloving harshness, censorship, and control tactics are for one's
          own good. It's not true, of course. Klemp only has the power Eckists
          give him! Eckists have allowed Klemp to entrap their own Souls!

          >It's difficult to see when you are in it. But when you are out of
          it, nothing can stop us to see it crystal clearly!

          *Yes, the Truth has set us free! This is a much more difficult path
          in some ways because our Self-Responsibility has become greater
          without the co-dependency of a "Living Master/ Mahanta."

          >>Here's an interesting quote: "Shamus met him in the marketplace,
          and this encounter threw Rumi into a daze. It vaulted him to a
          greater state of consciousness. What mortal enjoyed such divine
          power as Shamus?" Well, since the Eckankar Lexicon states that
          Shamus was the L.E.M./Mahanta, then it seems Klemp is putting
          himself right up there too! Rumi, on the other hand, was just "a
          follower of ECK" (Eckankar Lexicon, pg. 102) and not even an Eck
          Master.

          >He was not?! I thought he was! But I was ever so confused by all
          those masters ...

          *I know, everyone is confused to some degree. The best thing for
          Eckists is Not to pay too much attention to words. Words and
          thoughts are too confusing when all you need is love. Yes, love is
          all you need. SO, DON'T READ THE ECKANKAR LEXICON FROM COVER TO
          COVER!

          >>This is why Klemp states that Rumi just experienced "a greater
          state of consciousness" instead of God-Realization. If HK had stated
          that Rumi had experienced God-Realization, then Rumi would have to
          be listed as more than just "a follower of ECK" in the Eckankar
          Lexicon. At least Klemp got that part of his tale correct! Still, it
          seems HK is also giving credence to his own 1970 "daze" to again
          validate his qualifications and to give his words merit. This is
          brain washing at its best. . . very subtle and not so forceful like
          Scientology. Still, there is that Twitchell connection to the
          Scientology cult!

          >You know that initiates at Twitchell's time were not so highly
          developed than nowadays ... that's what Eckankar says. Well, the
          same seems to be the case with the Eck masters!

          *True, if Twitch wasn't as spiritually evolved in 1965 as the
          Klempster is today then where does that leave Rebazar? By this logic
          Rebazar had the consciousness of a 2nd Initiate when he stood in for
          Twitch and handed Darwin the Rod of ECK Power!

          >>I found it interesting that Owens' site has a section that has
          Rumi talking as though he is still with us! Klemp, however, makes
          three distinct speculations about what happened to Shamus after he
          left Rumi. Klemp makes statements like: "other speculation; no one
          really knows; there are said; A third reason that Shamus may have
          left" etc. Klemp even suggests that Shamus could have been murdered
          by Rumi's disciples! Actually, Klemp seems to know what Shamus was
          thinking by describing it (at first) in terms that Judge Judy (of
          TV fame) might use, but then HK starts to backpedal and
          speculate. "Rumi, he felt needed 'to be cooked' by separation. After
          all, his first departure had seen in Rumi a far greater devotion to
          God. Yet he still leaned too heavily on Shamus; it was holding him
          back spiritually, so Shamus may have decided to pop Rumi back in the
          oven."

          >How many seekers is HK holding back?! This is a spiritual crime ...

          *True, but it pays the bills!


          >>Now this is interesting! Here Klemp states that Rumi could only
          become fully "cooked" spiritually if he was separated from his
          Master. So, since Rumi was unwilling to leave or say good-bye then
          Shamus did the right thing and let him go by walking away. . .
          maybe. Or maybe Shamus was assassinated! Two things come to mind.
          Why doesn't Klemp (the Mahanta) know the truth about Shamus since
          Shamus also possessed the Mahanta consciousness? Klemp screwed that
          up, didn't he!

          >Nobody will ever ask because you don't ask the mahanta! Even if
          it's ever so illogical, nobody will question HK, the godman!

          *True, such questions, especially in a "monthly initiate report"
          will only get you watched by your RESA and possibly black-listed on
          initiations for three years minimun.

          >>And secondly, why doesn't Klemp let his H.I.s go and allow them to
          become more fully "cooked" since he is, apparently, holding
          them "back spiritually!" "And so there we leave it."

          >He uses more threats than ever to keep his followers ...

          *Yes, Klemp will use the threats from Twitchell's two Shariyats to
          keep people in line. But, why are these books by Twitchell okay
          while others are not up to the standards of current consciousness?
          Why hasn't Klemp written a Shariyat 3 or 4?

          >>After this article is a small box that states: "The goal of an
          H.I. get-together is to strengthen you in your common purpose: to
          assist, through outer service, the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master in
          his mission to show Soul the way home to God." --Shree Klempster
          Now why doesn't Klemp just say what an H.I. "get-together" really
          is? It's a TRAINING, People! Klemp doesn't even capitalize "get-
          together" since it's to be thought of as a social gathering of
          sorts, but it's not! Yes, Eckists are now realizing their true goal
          and mission as pseudo Eck Masters in training (forever) is not God-
          Realization, but to recruit more paying members! Who'd a thunk!

          >It's disguised as a get-together. But remember - Eckists don't
          socialize when they meet! It's not for "social" purposes that
          eckists meet, just for "spiritual" ones. Eckankar doesn't like to
          call their get-togethers "social"! So, apparently they are admitting
          that it's for some other purpose they are getting together ...

          *I always thought that the "Harji Potlucks" were kind of a way to
          socialize, although, we always had a "donation plate" out on a
          table. Yes, you're right! The only thing that I ever had in common
          with most Eckists was Eckankar! And they probably felt the same...
          so why even try to socialize with nothing else in common! I guess we
          felt guilt in not wanting to "love" everyone the same. There were
          exceptions though, and those are the Eckists that I still call,
          email, write to, and visit with.

          Prometheus
        • prometheus_973
          Hi Mish, True, Klemp s a liar! He watches TV and surfs the Internet! In 1990, when David Lane put his information of Eckankar on the Internet, is when Klemp
          Message 4 of 23 , Jul 13, 2005
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            Hi Mish,

            True, Klemp's a liar! He watches TV and surfs the Internet! In 1990,
            when David Lane put his information of Eckankar on the Internet, is
            when Klemp first started to have "EMR health problems." Of course,
            many Eckists suddenly discovered their own health problems were
            related to EMR as well! Funny how that special (Mahanta
            suggested) "Golden-Tongued Wisdom" (self-fulfilling) prophecy thing
            works with highly suggestible people.

            Yes, Klemp just has to suggest something and half the Eckists will
            experience it in one form or another. They're "plugged in" but Not
            to the Eck (Holy Spirit), but to mass hypnotic suggestion and
            delusion. As above so below.

            Prometheus


            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
            <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:

            >Prometheus,
            Since Klemp uses the term "fully cooked" in his H.I. Letter, do you
            think he actually watches Judge Judy? I didn't think Harold watched
            TV, because he suffers from that weird EMR disease. But perhaps that
            is just a Klemp myth--a sort of conspiracy created to keep Eckists
            away from TVs and computers where they might be exposed to the
            Truth??? It seems to be a disease that Eckists do contract--I
            learned of at least two having it before leaving Eckankar! Curious
            that they both are H.I.s--those higher vibrations are so sensitive,
            aren't they! : )

            > Mish
            >
            > Prometheus wrote:
            >
            > Klemp even suggests that Shamus could have been murdered by
            > > Rumi's disciples! Actually, Klemp seems to know what Shamus was
            > > thinking by describing it (at first) in terms that Judge Judy
            (of
            > TV
            > > fame) might use, but then HK starts to backpedal and
            > > speculate. "Rumi, he felt needed 'to be cooked' by separation.
            > After
            > > all, his first departure had seen in Rumi a far greater devotion
            > to
            > > God. Yet he still leaned too heavily on Shamus; it was holding
            him
            > > back spiritually, so Shamus may have decided to pop Rumi back in
            > the
            > > oven."
            > >
            > > Now this is interesting! Here Klemp states that Rumi could only
            > > become fully "cooked" spiritually if he was separated from his
            > > Master. So, since Rumi was unwilling to leave or say good-bye
            then
            > > Shamus did the right thing and let him go by walking away. . .
            > > maybe. Or maybe Shamus was assassinated! Two things come to
            mind.
            > > Why doesn't Klemp (the Mahanta) know the truth about Shamus
            since
            > > Shamus also possessed the Mahanta consciousness? Klemp screwed
            > that
            > > up, didn't he! And secondly, why doesn't Klemp let his H.I.s go
            > and
            > > allow them to become more fully "cooked" since he is,
            apparently,
            > > holding them "back spiritually!" "And so there we leave it."
            > >
          • mishmisha9
            Regarding those Harji potlucks, I always found it helpful to either eat well before going or stop someplace afterwards to get a real meal! It seemed so much of
            Message 5 of 23 , Jul 13, 2005
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              Regarding those Harji potlucks, I always found it helpful to either
              eat well before going or stop someplace afterwards to get a real meal!
              It seemed so much of the social discussion evolved around the "right"
              dietary food--avoid this and avoid that sort of discussion which was
              so boring and certainly took away from the enjoyment of the
              dining! : ) I did notice, however, how Eckists would swoop down on the
              meat dishes which were actually few and far between for the most part.
              Put a platter of turkey on the table and it would be gone in 30
              seconds! I don't miss those potlucks at all. . .

              Mish
            • Greg and Liz
              ... *** I probably shouldn t get in on this topic since I won t be around for a couple weeks. :-) But this is just too much fun! I have to share something
              Message 6 of 23 , Jul 14, 2005
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                prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                >Of course, many Eckists suddenly discovered their own health problems were related to EMR as well! Funny how that special (Mahanta suggested) "Golden-Tongued Wisdom" (self-fulfilling) prophecy thing works with highly suggestible people.

                *** I probably shouldn't get in on this topic since I won't be around for a couple weeks.  :-)  But this is just too much fun!

                   I have to share something that maybe others were thinking or even recall hearing other eckist claiming back in the early days of Klump's illness issues.... and maybe still do?  Take my Mom for example, who also became ill around the same time as this EMR illness came up.  She proudly boasted that she would willingly (as an HI, since the lowly couldn't handle it) help take on Klump's illness so he wouldn't have to carry all the burden of the universe by himself! She used to claim  Klump's illness and other's were due to the shift taking place in the consciousness of this universe, because Klump was bringing it up to a new initiation level.  And by this event, Klump and Co. would be taking on the karma of the universe.  (Her illness isn't EMR, but she claims it is related because of an inner experience with Klump;  her illness wasn't what it seemed.  So for quit a long time she refused treatment because Klump was going to heal her.... then one afternoon her doctor entered her room with the gloomy prognoses that if she didn't take the treatment she would be dead by morning.  For someone that pretended to commit suicide for attention for most of my early years, she sure was afraid of death that day!) 

                >Yes, Klemp just has to suggest something and half the Eckists will experience it in one form or another. They're "plugged in" but Not to the Eck (Holy Spirit), but to mass hypnotic suggestion and delusion. As above so below.

                *** Most of us were part of that delusion. Yet I, on a very rare occasion question what it was that actually *woke* me up to this.  I have to think of it as a very long deep sleep. (30 years)  One beautiful sunny morning the curtains just couldn't keep the light from waking me. 

                Anyway, I'm off on another camping trip.  Looking forward to getting in touch with nature....  :-D  Hope everyone enjoys their summer as I am!

                Hugs

                Liz

              • Greg and Liz
                ... ** LOL, sounds familiar! How many of us actually tried eating what we thought was healthy because of a certain Twitch book, or recommendations of books by
                Message 7 of 23 , Jul 14, 2005
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                  mishmisha9 <mishmisha9@...> wrote:

                  >Regarding those Harji potlucks, I always found it helpful to either eat well before going or stop someplace afterwards to get a real meal!

                  ** LOL, sounds familiar!  How many of us actually tried eating what we thought was healthy because of a certain Twitch book, or recommendations of books by the Klumpster?  I for one did, and found myself eventually having illnesses I created by trying to do the eckclone thing.... 

                  >It seemed so much of the social discussion evolved around the "right" dietary food--avoid this and avoid that sort of discussion which was so boring and certainly took away from the enjoyment of the dining!

                  **  This reminds me of the Stepford Wives movie remake....  the whole ecksocial thing.  But honestly, once I stopped trying to become healthy, I regained my health!   

                • mishmisha9
                  We even held a Harji Potluck at our home one time! At one point during the affair, I stepped into my kitchen to find an Eckist explaining to another Eckist
                  Message 8 of 23 , Jul 14, 2005
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                    We even held a Harji Potluck at our home one time! At one point
                    during the affair, I stepped into my kitchen to find an Eckist
                    explaining to another Eckist what was good to eat and what wasn't.
                    She even had pulled a container out of my refrigerator pointing to
                    the listed "unhealthy" ingredients that was in a certain food. When
                    she saw me, she pulled me into the discussion to enlighten me as
                    well! : ) Later, this Eckist told me that she got into some serious
                    problems with her heart for following some of those Eck
                    recommended "healthy" diets she had been following. She's doing okay
                    now, and we enjoy an occasional lunch together where food is no
                    longer the central topic, but rather just one aspect of our time.

                    Mish

                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Greg and Liz
                    <whitefeatherliz@y...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > mishmisha9 <mishmisha9@y...> wrote
                    > >Regarding those Harji potlucks, I always found it helpful to
                    either eat well before going or stop someplace afterwards to get a
                    real meal!
                    >
                    > ** LOL, sounds familiar! How many of us actually tried eating
                    what we thought was healthy because of a certain Twitch book, or
                    recommendations of books by the Klumpster? I for one did, and found
                    myself eventually having illnesses I created by trying to do the
                    eckclone thing....
                    >
                    > >It seemed so much of the social discussion evolved around
                    the "right" dietary food--avoid this and avoid that sort of
                    discussion which was so boring and certainly took away from the
                    enjoyment of the dining!
                    >
                    > ** This reminds me of the Stepford Wives movie remake.... the
                    whole ecksocial thing. But honestly, once I stopped trying to
                    become healthy, I regained my health!
                  • ctecvie
                    Hello Liz & Mish, ... either eat well before going or stop someplace afterwards to get a real meal! It seems that I was really lucky to have real good meals at
                    Message 9 of 23 , Jul 14, 2005
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                      Hello Liz & Mish,

                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Greg and Liz
                      <whitefeatherliz@y...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > mishmisha9 <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
                      > >Regarding those Harji potlucks, I always found it helpful to
                      either eat well before going or stop someplace afterwards to get a
                      real meal!

                      It seems that I was really lucky to have real good meals at our
                      local center! :-)
                      >
                      > ** LOL, sounds familiar! How many of us actually tried eating
                      what we thought was healthy because of a certain Twitch book, or
                      recommendations of books by the Klumpster? I for one did, and found
                      myself eventually having illnesses I created by trying to do the
                      eckclone thing....

                      Oh yes - fortunately, I was not as gullible as many others in this
                      respect, but of course I tried to be a good Eckist, and still was
                      gullible enough. I remember an Eckist who was very much into healthy
                      food - she had to bring her own food wherever she went because she
                      couldn't eat the food there, she didn't support it! I always felt
                      that a spiritual path should make me healthier and stronger and not
                      the contrary. And of course there was the lady you know already who
                      said that meat-eaters were smelling foul. Can you imagine that! :-)
                      >
                      > >It seemed so much of the social discussion evolved around
                      the "right" dietary food--avoid this and avoid that sort of
                      discussion which was so boring and certainly took away from the
                      enjoyment of the dining!
                      >
                      > ** This reminds me of the Stepford Wives movie remake.... the
                      whole ecksocial thing. But honestly, once I stopped trying to
                      become healthy, I regained my health!

                      Well, once you really start being yourself, then everything gets
                      much better. The moment you try to clone yourself from the image of
                      a "master", you eventually get sick because you are not living your
                      life. Rather easy to see, now, I think :-)

                      Ingrid
                    • prometheus_973
                      Hi Liz, Have a nice camping trip and keep dry. I enjoyed your comments and have a few more of my own to share. ... wrote: ... problems
                      Message 10 of 23 , Jul 14, 2005
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                        Hi Liz,
                        Have a nice camping trip and keep dry. I enjoyed your comments and
                        have a few more of my own to share.

                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Greg and Liz
                        <whitefeatherliz@y...> wrote:
                        prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:

                        >>Of course, many Eckists suddenly discovered their own health
                        problems were related to EMR as well! Funny how that special
                        (Mahanta suggested) "Golden-Tongued Wisdom" (self-fulfilling)
                        prophecy thing works with highly suggestible people.

                        >*** I probably shouldn't get in on this topic since I won't be
                        around for a couple weeks. :-) But this is just too much fun!

                        >***I have to share something that maybe others were thinking or
                        even recall hearing other eckist claiming back in the early days of
                        Klump's illness issues.... and maybe still do? Take my Mom for
                        example, who also became ill around the same time as this EMR
                        illness came up. She proudly boasted that she would willingly (as
                        an HI, since the lowly couldn't handle it) help take on Klump's
                        illness so he wouldn't have to carry all the burden of the universe
                        by himself! She used to claim Klump's illness and other's were due
                        to the shift taking place in the consciousness of this universe,
                        because Klump was bringing it up to a new initiation level. And by
                        this event, Klump and Co. would be taking on the karma of the
                        universe. (Her illness isn't EMR, but she claims it is related
                        because of an inner experience with Klump; her illness wasn't what
                        it seemed. So for quit a long time she refused treatment because
                        Klump was going to heal her.... then one afternoon her doctor
                        entered her room with the gloomy prognoses that if she didn't take
                        the treatment she would be dead by morning. For someone that
                        pretended to commit suicide for attention for most of my early
                        years, she sure was afraid of death that day!)


                        Yes, many Eckists were acting very vain in thinking they were
                        helping the L.E.M./Mahanta (Klump) with the karma that he had taken
                        on for the world. LOL! Shit still happened in the world so it didn't
                        seem to help did it! We got Dubya as Pres so consciousness even
                        dropped a couple of notches! Thanks you very much Harold! Not!

                        Remember how H.I.s would sit in the front row at seminars when Klemp
                        gave his talks. This was to place a wall of protection between him
                        and and the other initiates (and Nons). I believe Klemp even
                        mentioned this once. Since people had flown or driven to the seminar
                        they were still stressed out from the long journey and not in a
                        positive or balanced mode, and Klemp needed protection from these
                        negative or chaotic energies because he was already weakened.

                        Therefore, is it any wonder that Eckists thought they needed to help
                        out with taking on Klemp's "world" karma or that of all Eckists.
                        However, this delusion prevented these Eckists (through vanity) from
                        taking responsibility and reviewing their own actions (and karma)
                        which attributed to their own health problems. Not too long ago in a
                        Mystic World article Klemp pointed out that no one could take on
                        karma for the L.E.M./Mahanta. Of course, even having a wall of H.I.s
                        in front of him kind of makes one wonder why HK needed it if he is
                        all that he claims! I wonder if Eckists ever thought about that? I
                        didn't! But, at least I was never a vain martyr like many
                        (apparantly) in thinking that I could take on Karma for Klemp!

                        >>Yes, Klemp just has to suggest something and half the Eckists will
                        experience it in one form or another. They're "plugged in" but Not
                        to the Eck (Holy Spirit), but to mass hypnotic suggestion and
                        delusion. As above so below.


                        >***Most of us were part of that delusion. Yet I, on a very rare
                        occasion question what it was that actually *woke* me up to this. I
                        have to think of it as a very long deep sleep. (30 years) One
                        beautiful sunny morning the curtains just couldn't keep the light
                        from waking me.


                        I know!

                        I once questioned someone from the ESC about discontinuing Paul's
                        books (about twenty years ago when it first started), and was told
                        not to second guess the Mahanta! The guy was rather arrogant, but a
                        good little soldier just the same. Let's not question why this
                        historical information is being discontinued and is now totally
                        unavailable! The thing is... if Twitchell's stuff isn't on as high
                        of a level of consciousness with the current teaching... so what! At
                        least make it available to card carrying paid members of Eckankar,
                        or at least to H.I.s! Let Eckists decide what is valuable and what
                        is not, and Not let Klemp decide for you! Why is censorship
                        necessary unless there is something to hide?

                        Prometheus
                      • ctecvie
                        Hello Liz, ... even recall hearing other eckist claiming back in the early days of Klump s illness issues.... and maybe still do? Take my Mom for example, who
                        Message 11 of 23 , Jul 15, 2005
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                          Hello Liz,

                          > I have to share something that maybe others were thinking or
                          even recall hearing other eckist claiming back in the early days of
                          Klump's illness issues.... and maybe still do? Take my Mom for
                          example, who also became ill around the same time as this EMR illness
                          came up.

                          <<<<<< I knew quite a few people who said they were sensible to this,
                          too! Even in my "best" times as an Eckist, I never could understand
                          how that happened. I know, of course, that some people are more
                          sensible than others, but this was too obvious for me. I kept
                          thinking that they were identifying themselves too much with Harold
                          and I didn't like that too much.

                          > She proudly boasted that she would willingly (as an HI, since the
                          lowly couldn't handle it) help take on Klump's illness so he wouldn't
                          have to carry all the burden of the universe by himself! She used to
                          claim Klump's illness and other's were due to the shift taking place
                          in the consciousness of this universe, because Klump was bringing it
                          up to a new initiation level.

                          <<<<<< Well, the burdens of a whole universe are too heavy indeed! :-
                          ) And of course to lift the whole universe to another level of
                          consciousness is even heavier! :-) He should have left this to
                          Atlas! ;-))

                          >And by this event, Klump and Co. would be taking on the karma of the
                          universe.

                          <<<<<< It's incredible we believed all that!

                          >(Her illness isn't EMR, but she claims it is related because of an
                          inner experience with Klump; her illness wasn't what it seemed. So
                          for quit a long time she refused treatment because Klump was going to
                          heal her.... then one afternoon her doctor entered her room
                          > with the gloomy prognoses that if she didn't take the treatment
                          she would be dead by morning. For someone that pretended to commit
                          suicide for attention for most of my early years, she sure was afraid
                          of death that day!)

                          <<<<<< I know a 6th initiate whose mother had many difficulties to
                          die - apparently, she was very afraid to let go. And this mother was
                          a 6th initiate as well! The daughter - grandchild of the woman who
                          died - left Eckankar after this event because she saw that the
                          teachings didn't really work. My friend, the 6th initiate, is still
                          very devoted to Eckankar and especially to the mahanta - I always saw
                          this as an unhealthy and rather abnormal behavior.
                          >
                          > *** Most of us were part of that delusion. Yet I, on a very rare
                          occasion question what it was that actually *woke* me up to this. I
                          have to think of it as a very long deep sleep. (30 years) One
                          beautiful sunny morning the curtains just couldn't keep the light
                          from waking me.

                          <<<<<< Yes, we all bought into this delusion, more or less.
                          Fortunately I was not such a long-term member and only a lowly 3rd
                          initiate! :-) I think that when it's time, we all wake up - even
                          after such a long sleep like yours! Actually, I think you are very
                          brave and intelligent to do so because that's not an easy task after
                          practically having been brought up in the religion!


                          >
                          > Anyway, I'm off on another camping trip. Looking forward to
                          getting in touch with nature.... :-D Hope everyone enjoys their
                          summer as I am!

                          <<<<<< Have fun & take care!
                          Ingrid
                        • mishmisha9
                          I always thought it was arrogant to think you could take on the karma of the universe! Plus, I never noticed any changes in the universe when someone had
                          Message 12 of 23 , Jul 15, 2005
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                            I always thought it was arrogant to think you could take on the
                            karma of the universe! Plus, I never noticed any changes in the
                            universe when someone had claimed to do such a thing! I mean what
                            proved that this was being done!!!!

                            I have a friend who for a time self-diagnosed the EMR problem, right
                            after I communicated (via email)about and urged this person to read
                            Ford's book Confessions of a God Seeker. All of a sudden, this
                            person could no longer sit at the computer without becoming ill!
                            What a coincidence! : )

                            In my naivety, I asked how one was diagnosed--what procedures/tests
                            are done to prove such an illness. Well, this person became highly
                            defensive and said that he/she didn't need tests to prove it--he/she
                            knew!!!! Did I mention this was an H.I.? Talk about being highly
                            sensitive--when defending crackpot theories! I have noticed that the
                            anger/defensiveness occurs the strongest with those who have the
                            weakest belief systems or theories that they are promoting! I guess
                            this is so, because there is no real basis in fact to what they are
                            buying into! It's all speculation--their own or someone else's that
                            they want to believe! Maybe, they are fighting their own
                            subconscious that knows better and they are frustrated. The argument
                            is not really with those who are not agreeing with them, but
                            actually within their own selves. Well, that's just a guess!

                            Mish
                          • prometheus_973
                            Hi Mish, I remembered some things after reading your post, and thought I d comment. ... karma of the universe! Plus, I never noticed any changes in the
                            Message 13 of 23 , Jul 15, 2005
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                              Hi Mish,
                              I remembered some things after reading your post, and thought I'd
                              comment.

                              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                              <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:

                              > I always thought it was arrogant to think you could take on the
                              karma of the universe! Plus, I never noticed any changes in the
                              universe when someone had claimed to do such a thing! I mean what
                              proved that this was being done!!!!


                              This is true for all of these "Masters" or "Whatever" they claim to
                              be, and for the "powers" they possess. Maharishi, of TM fame, would
                              gather thousands of us siddhas together to "raise the consciousness"
                              of the areas we were sent to. Washington D.C. or New York City for
                              the United Nations conferences or even the Middle East were hot spot
                              areas that needed our help. The problem with going to the Middle
                              Eastern countries was with the clothes the average TMer was expected
                              to wear. Maharishi had a dress code that made everyone look like an
                              FBI or CIA agent! Everyone was stopped at customs! How could you
                              blame the people in these other countries when hundreds of young
                              dark suited males and females were coming to their country just
                              to "meditate" and raise the consciousness of their country. But,
                              when one looks at what is happening in the world since all of
                              this "raising of consciousness" has been taking place it seems that
                              Maharishi and Klemp were just full of hot air. TM's con is to
                              create "Heaven on Earth." Klemp's claim is what... to give spiritual
                              freedom through Eck mastership? But one needs the 10th Initiation
                              for Eck "Mastership" and that doesn't happen on the physical plane
                              unless your male and are the Living Eck Master! Promises! Promises!


                              > I have a friend who for a time self-diagnosed the EMR problem,
                              right after I communicated (via email)about and urged this person to
                              read Ford's book Confessions of a God Seeker. All of a sudden, this
                              person could no longer sit at the computer without becoming ill!
                              What a coincidence! : )


                              Yes, I had a H.I. Eck friend (pre "Confessions") that told me that
                              she believed in kinesiology. I expressed doubt that it really worked
                              and was a valid method to use for one's health. But, she was very
                              insistent on its reliability. However, she then told me that she was
                              still going to use some supplements that she was Not to use because
                              of the kinesology test. She felt that using her own "intuition" was
                              better. I then said, "I guess you don't really believe in kinesology
                              then." The Eckist then got a very puzzled look on her face, and the
                              back peddling began!


                              > In my naivety, I asked how one was diagnosed--what
                              procedures/tests are done to prove such an illness. Well, this
                              person became highly defensive and said that he/she didn't need
                              tests to prove it--he/she knew!!!! Did I mention this was an H.I.?
                              Talk about being highly sensitive--when defending crackpot theories!


                              People want answers and sooner or later they will find them... even
                              if those answers are not accurate or truthful.


                              > I have noticed that the anger/defensiveness occurs the strongest
                              with those who have the weakest belief systems or theories that they
                              are promoting! I guess this is so, because there is no real basis in
                              fact to what they are buying into! It's all speculation--their own
                              or someone else's that they want to believe! Maybe, they are
                              fighting their own subconscious that knows better and they are
                              frustrated. The argument is not really with those who are not
                              agreeing with them, but actually within their own selves. Well,
                              that's just a guess!


                              I agree! Either on a Soul level or a subconscious or even on an
                              unconscious level of awareness one's Self sees through the facade
                              and distortions that are created by ego as a matter of convenience
                              or security for peace of mind. Everyones' ego are seeking that
                              comfort level to deal with their own limited reality and with
                              portions of the realities of others. Usually people tend to group
                              together in order to bolster the ego's belief in the facsimiles of
                              similar creations.


                              Prometheus
                            • Freefrom
                              I really like a lot of the ideas expressed in this post, Prometheus, but I have a problem or difficulty with the last part where you talk about the ego as if
                              Message 14 of 23 , Jul 15, 2005
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                                I really like a lot of the ideas expressed in this post, Prometheus,
                                but I have a problem or difficulty with the last part where you talk
                                about the ego as if it is some separate entity, aside from whatever.
                                Would you mind explaining where you are coming from on this. Thanks.

                                Freefrom


                                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                                <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
                                > Hi Mish,
                                > I remembered some things after reading your post, and thought I'd
                                > comment.
                                >
                                > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                                > <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
                                >
                                > > I always thought it was arrogant to think you could take on the
                                > karma of the universe! Plus, I never noticed any changes in the
                                > universe when someone had claimed to do such a thing! I mean what
                                > proved that this was being done!!!!
                                >
                                >
                                > This is true for all of these "Masters" or "Whatever" they claim to
                                > be, and for the "powers" they possess. Maharishi, of TM fame, would
                                > gather thousands of us siddhas together to "raise the consciousness"
                                > of the areas we were sent to. Washington D.C. or New York City for
                                > the United Nations conferences or even the Middle East were hot spot
                                > areas that needed our help. The problem with going to the Middle
                                > Eastern countries was with the clothes the average TMer was expected
                                > to wear. Maharishi had a dress code that made everyone look like an
                                > FBI or CIA agent! Everyone was stopped at customs! How could you
                                > blame the people in these other countries when hundreds of young
                                > dark suited males and females were coming to their country just
                                > to "meditate" and raise the consciousness of their country. But,
                                > when one looks at what is happening in the world since all of
                                > this "raising of consciousness" has been taking place it seems that
                                > Maharishi and Klemp were just full of hot air. TM's con is to
                                > create "Heaven on Earth." Klemp's claim is what... to give spiritual
                                > freedom through Eck mastership? But one needs the 10th Initiation
                                > for Eck "Mastership" and that doesn't happen on the physical plane
                                > unless your male and are the Living Eck Master! Promises! Promises!
                                >
                                >
                                > > I have a friend who for a time self-diagnosed the EMR problem,
                                > right after I communicated (via email)about and urged this person to
                                > read Ford's book Confessions of a God Seeker. All of a sudden, this
                                > person could no longer sit at the computer without becoming ill!
                                > What a coincidence! : )
                                >
                                >
                                > Yes, I had a H.I. Eck friend (pre "Confessions") that told me that
                                > she believed in kinesiology. I expressed doubt that it really worked
                                > and was a valid method to use for one's health. But, she was very
                                > insistent on its reliability. However, she then told me that she was
                                > still going to use some supplements that she was Not to use because
                                > of the kinesology test. She felt that using her own "intuition" was
                                > better. I then said, "I guess you don't really believe in kinesology
                                > then." The Eckist then got a very puzzled look on her face, and the
                                > back peddling began!
                                >
                                >
                                > > In my naivety, I asked how one was diagnosed--what
                                > procedures/tests are done to prove such an illness. Well, this
                                > person became highly defensive and said that he/she didn't need
                                > tests to prove it--he/she knew!!!! Did I mention this was an H.I.?
                                > Talk about being highly sensitive--when defending crackpot theories!
                                >
                                >
                                > People want answers and sooner or later they will find them... even
                                > if those answers are not accurate or truthful.
                                >
                                >
                                > > I have noticed that the anger/defensiveness occurs the strongest
                                > with those who have the weakest belief systems or theories that they
                                > are promoting! I guess this is so, because there is no real basis in
                                > fact to what they are buying into! It's all speculation--their own
                                > or someone else's that they want to believe! Maybe, they are
                                > fighting their own subconscious that knows better and they are
                                > frustrated. The argument is not really with those who are not
                                > agreeing with them, but actually within their own selves. Well,
                                > that's just a guess!
                                >
                                >
                                > I agree! Either on a Soul level or a subconscious or even on an
                                > unconscious level of awareness one's Self sees through the facade
                                > and distortions that are created by ego as a matter of convenience
                                > or security for peace of mind. Everyones' ego are seeking that
                                > comfort level to deal with their own limited reality and with
                                > portions of the realities of others. Usually people tend to group
                                > together in order to bolster the ego's belief in the facsimiles of
                                > similar creations.
                                >
                                >
                                > Prometheus
                              • prometheus_973
                                Hello Freefrom, Welcome to the site! I left the statements that led up to those comments in order to keep the context in place. Of course, the following is
                                Message 15 of 23 , Jul 16, 2005
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                                  Hello Freefrom,

                                  Welcome to the site! I left the statements that led up to those
                                  comments in order to keep the context in place. Of course, the
                                  following is only my opinion based on various factors, three of
                                  which are observation, experience, and a degree of Self awareness.

                                  In a sense the ego is a separate entity in that it is the portion of
                                  the mind that solidifies the permanence of the illusions we create
                                  in order to survive or cope with "reality." It has been said, more
                                  or less, that the mind is a good servant but a terrible master, and
                                  I would agree. When one operates and lives their life from the
                                  attitude and perspective of Soul then one has much more control of
                                  the ego and a degree of clarity of all life.

                                  Unfortunately, some people talk the talk but don't walk the walk,
                                  but their behaviors give them away. Ego makes one narcissitic
                                  and "self" centered and clouds the mind to the point of obsession
                                  and delusion. However, ego does have its usefulness and purpose, but
                                  to identify with it as many do just leads to self and even group
                                  misery. Ego distracts, misleads, and distorts as a protection
                                  mechanism. Therefore, the stronger the ego the weaker the
                                  individual. When the ego is weaker or controllable the individual
                                  Self becomes stronger and more Self aware.

                                  But no, the ego is not really a separate entity... it just acts as
                                  though it is. Anyway, I hope this wordy explaination has clarified
                                  my previous post for you.

                                  Prometheus


                                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Freefrom"
                                  <eckchains@y...> wrote:

                                  > I really like a lot of the ideas expressed in this post,
                                  Prometheus, but I have a problem or difficulty with the last part
                                  where you talk about the ego as if it is some separate entity, aside
                                  from whatever. Would you mind explaining where you are coming from
                                  on this. Thanks.

                                  > Freefrom





                                  Prometheus: People want answers and sooner or later they will find
                                  them... even if those answers are not accurate or truthful.

                                  Mish: I have noticed that the anger/defensiveness occurs the
                                  strongest with those who have the weakest belief systems or theories
                                  that they are promoting! I guess this is so, because there is no
                                  real basis in fact to what they are buying into! It's all
                                  speculation--their own or someone else's that they want to believe!
                                  Maybe, they are fighting their own subconscious that knows better
                                  and they are frustrated. The argument is not really with those who
                                  are not agreeing with them, but actually within their own selves.
                                  Well, that's just a guess!


                                  Prometheus: I agree! Either on a Soul level or a subconscious or
                                  even on an unconscious level of awareness one's Self sees through
                                  the facade and distortions that are created by ego as a matter of
                                  convenience or security for peace of mind. Everyone's ego is seeking
                                  that comfort level to deal with their own limited reality and with
                                  portions of the realities of others. Usually people tend to group
                                  together in order to bolster the ego's belief in the facsimiles of
                                  similar creations.
                                • ctecvie
                                  Hello Prometheus & Mish, ... to ... would ... consciousness ... spot ... expected ... an ... I think this behavior shows a lot of disrespect to the people in
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Jul 17, 2005
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                                    Hello Prometheus & Mish,

                                    > This is true for all of these "Masters" or "Whatever" they claim
                                    to
                                    > be, and for the "powers" they possess. Maharishi, of TM fame,
                                    would
                                    > gather thousands of us siddhas together to "raise the
                                    consciousness"
                                    > of the areas we were sent to. Washington D.C. or New York City for
                                    > the United Nations conferences or even the Middle East were hot
                                    spot
                                    > areas that needed our help. The problem with going to the Middle
                                    > Eastern countries was with the clothes the average TMer was
                                    expected
                                    > to wear. Maharishi had a dress code that made everyone look like
                                    an
                                    > FBI or CIA agent! Everyone was stopped at customs! How could you
                                    > blame the people in these other countries when hundreds of young
                                    > dark suited males and females were coming to their country just
                                    > to "meditate" and raise the consciousness of their country.


                                    I think this behavior shows a lot of disrespect to the people in
                                    this country. How can you raise the consciousness of somebody whom
                                    you don't respect and, besides that, is certainly not willing to
                                    have his "consciousness raised"? And, raised to what? What if their
                                    consciousness is already where it should be, but only different? I
                                    remember our guide from a tour we made in the US who, despite his
                                    young age, was a very wise guy who always told us when the time came
                                    to choose between two or three tour offers for the current
                                    day: "Remember, whatever you choose don't complain or don't think
                                    that yours is better or worse than the other tours - it's not
                                    better, it's not worse, it's just different". I will remember this
                                    guy always just for this sentence!


                                    > when one looks at what is happening in the world since all of
                                    > this "raising of consciousness" has been taking place it seems
                                    that
                                    > Maharishi and Klemp were just full of hot air. TM's con is to
                                    > create "Heaven on Earth." Klemp's claim is what... to give
                                    spiritual
                                    > freedom through Eck mastership? But one needs the 10th Initiation
                                    > for Eck "Mastership" and that doesn't happen on the physical plane
                                    > unless your male and are the Living Eck Master! Promises! Promises!

                                    Prometheus, I think you have gotten that wrong. ;-) It's not through
                                    Eck mastership because nobody will ever attain it for HK is glued to
                                    his seat, but the promise is to not have to come back to
                                    this "lower" world full of sh ... but to sit happily on a cloud on
                                    the soul plane or even higher! ;-)) (well, that's a bit simplified,
                                    I know, but what the heck, I couldn't resist this one ;-)) ).
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > > I have a friend who for a time self-diagnosed the EMR problem,
                                    > right after I communicated (via email)about and urged this person
                                    to
                                    > read Ford's book Confessions of a God Seeker. All of a sudden,
                                    this
                                    > person could no longer sit at the computer without becoming ill!
                                    > What a coincidence! : )

                                    Yes and there were many more who got the same thing, or thought
                                    so ...
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Yes, I had a H.I. Eck friend (pre "Confessions") that told me that
                                    > she believed in kinesiology. I expressed doubt that it really
                                    worked
                                    > and was a valid method to use for one's health.

                                    Well, as everything, it's a method to help yourselves - if you are
                                    interested in this kind of method. My husband was one of the first
                                    kinesiologists in the country (besides his "real" work as an IT
                                    specialist in a bank) and I have found and still find this method
                                    quite helpful. But of course, if you develop cancer or break a leg
                                    or develop other serious symptoms, you still have to go to the
                                    doctor to find out what's wrong and how it can be helped. I think
                                    that all these methods can be used in addition to traditional
                                    methods. And they can help you keep your energy level high before
                                    developing symptoms! There are so many methods and therapies out
                                    there - the most important is that you make your choice, whatever
                                    this choice is! And that you stay reasonable, too.

                                    > But, she was very
                                    > insistent on its reliability. However, she then told me that she
                                    was
                                    > still going to use some supplements that she was Not to use
                                    because
                                    > of the kinesology test. She felt that using her own "intuition"
                                    was
                                    > better. I then said, "I guess you don't really believe in
                                    kinesology
                                    > then." The Eckist then got a very puzzled look on her face, and
                                    the
                                    > back peddling began!

                                    Well, seems that she did not really make her choice ... :-)
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > > In my naivety, I asked how one was diagnosed--what
                                    > procedures/tests are done to prove such an illness. Well, this
                                    > person became highly defensive and said that he/she didn't need
                                    > tests to prove it--he/she knew!!!! Did I mention this was an
                                    H.I.?
                                    > Talk about being highly sensitive--when defending crackpot
                                    theories!

                                    Eckankar helped us a lot to become deluded ... apart from meeting
                                    really nice people in Eckankar, it was also in Eckankar that I met
                                    the most deluded people.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > People want answers and sooner or later they will find them...
                                    even
                                    > if those answers are not accurate or truthful.

                                    Yes, and I think that the thing is to find the answers and move on
                                    to the next ones, as the answers always change the more you develop -
                                    or, just the more you live! I think that a religion, and
                                    Eckankar,too, makes us believe that we have attained everything and
                                    found the truth. Even if they say that they have still to unfold,
                                    there's that feeling "I have finally arrived and everything will be
                                    ok". And this feels good, of course! And it's not easy to move on
                                    when we find out that this is not so ...


                                    >
                                    >
                                    > > I have noticed that the anger/defensiveness occurs the strongest
                                    > with those who have the weakest belief systems or theories that
                                    they
                                    > are promoting! I guess this is so, because there is no real basis
                                    in
                                    > fact to what they are buying into! It's all speculation--their own
                                    > or someone else's that they want to believe! Maybe, they are
                                    > fighting their own subconscious that knows better and they are
                                    > frustrated. The argument is not really with those who are not
                                    > agreeing with them, but actually within their own selves. Well,
                                    > that's just a guess!

                                    Yes, I agree with that. The more open people are, the more they will
                                    respect people with different beliefs. Eckists are often just
                                    parroting what they are reading, but they have not realized it with
                                    themselves. Ah, yes - even some HCS members are like that. Did you
                                    notice that Mario, in his last post, sounded exactly like HK in his
                                    wisdom notes and talks? It really struck me, and I had to kind of
                                    chuckle. ;-))

                                    > I agree! Either on a Soul level or a subconscious or even on an
                                    > unconscious level of awareness one's Self sees through the facade
                                    > and distortions that are created by ego as a matter of convenience
                                    > or security for peace of mind. Everyones' ego are seeking that
                                    > comfort level to deal with their own limited reality and with
                                    > portions of the realities of others. Usually people tend to group
                                    > together in order to bolster the ego's belief in the facsimiles
                                    of
                                    > similar creations.

                                    Yes, because it feels so good to belong! I can confirm that it feels
                                    very good to belong!
                                    Ingrid
                                  • prometheus_973
                                    Hi Ingrid, Actually, the carrot of initiation has many levels for each Eckist. ... create Heaven on Earth. Klemp s claim is what... to give spiritual freedom
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Jul 17, 2005
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                                      Hi Ingrid,
                                      Actually, the carrot of initiation has many levels for each Eckist.

                                      Prometheus wrote:
                                      >>Maharishi and Klemp were just full of hot air. TM's con is to
                                      create "Heaven on Earth." Klemp's claim is what... to give spiritual
                                      freedom through Eck mastership? But one needs the 10th Initiation
                                      for Eck "Mastership" and that doesn't happen on the physical plane
                                      unless your male and are the Living Eck Master! Promises! Promises!

                                      Ingrid wrote:
                                      >Prometheus, I think you have gotten that wrong. ;-) It's not
                                      through Eck mastership because nobody will ever attain it for HK is
                                      glued to his seat, but the promise is to not have to come back to
                                      this "lower" world full of sh ... but to sit happily on a cloud on
                                      the soul plane or even higher! ;-)) (well, that's a bit simplified,
                                      I know, but what the heck, I couldn't resist this one ;-)) ).

                                      ***True, nobody except Klemp (or his male replacements) will ever
                                      attain "Eck mastership." But there are different promises for each
                                      initiation level. With the 2nd thru 4th initiations it's not having
                                      to return to earth for future incarnations. At the 5th it's also
                                      being established on the 5th "Soul" Plane, having past life karma
                                      resolved, and reaching Self or Soul Realization/Consciousness. The
                                      6th and 7th initiations offer Spiritual Realization (and "settler"
                                      positions) and a step closer to the golden carrot of God Realization
                                      (Eck Mastership) and spiritual liberation. However, the more
                                      initiations and years of delusion tends to take its toll on one's
                                      ability to see/think more clearly (without Mahanta dependence).
                                      Eckists on these initiation levels, especially the 7th and 8th, tend
                                      to see themselves on higher "inner" initiation levels too. Actually,
                                      there are many Eckists on even lower initiation levels who see
                                      themselves on "higher inner" initiation levels. Rationalizing is how
                                      the typical Eckist is able to wait those long years inbetween
                                      initiations. And, for those hitting the glass ceiling of the 7th the
                                      ability to rationalize and dream of Eck mastership is of utmost
                                      importance in order to continue the delusion. Eckists are taught to
                                      be co-dependent on the outer/inner "Master," through contradictions
                                      (i.e., self-reliance) and deception (i.e., spiritual freedom and Eck
                                      Mastership). As I pointed out before in regards to the Masters 4
                                      Discourse Lesson 2 on the Nineth Initiation... there are three
                                      stages and the third and final stage to that initiation is
                                      confirmation on the outer! Therefore, wouldn't all initiations have
                                      the same requirements? How then can Eckists think that they
                                      are "higher" than their membership cards indicate? This is the same
                                      kind of delusion that is prevalent, necessary, and required to
                                      follow all of the Eck dogma! Silly isn't it! But, if one doesn't
                                      have anything better to replace it (Eckankar) with then it does give
                                      a false sense of security. It's really too bad that true spiritual
                                      freedom from Twitchell's and Klemp's con is only achieved when one
                                      sees through the deceit, sees real truth and then has the courage to
                                      act on it!



                                      >Eckankar helped us a lot to become deluded ... apart from meeting
                                      really nice people in Eckankar, it was also in Eckankar that I met
                                      the most deluded people.



                                      ***True, I met some very nice people and some as deluded as I was! I
                                      also met a lot of social misfits that "hid out" with their higher
                                      initiations. Most Eckists will overlook "quirky behavior" if that
                                      person is an H.I.



                                      >Eckists are often just parroting what they are reading, but they
                                      have not realized it with themselves. Ah, yes - even some HCS
                                      members are like that. Did you notice that Mario, in his last post,
                                      sounded exactly like HK in his wisdom notes and talks? It really
                                      struck me, and I had to kind of chuckle. ;-))


                                      ***Yes, Mario is extremely quirky! I found it interesting that Ford
                                      allows him to post his innuendo's and veiled threats while typically
                                      Not contributing anything of spiritual value or of higher
                                      consciousness. One has to wonder if this is Ford's Archilles heel,
                                      or if something else is taking place. Why is it that B&M can do no
                                      wrong when they are so wrong! What's Ford's game in turning a blind
                                      eye to their misbehavior and the cult/con promotions?

                                      Prometheus
                                    • mishmisha9
                                      Hi, Prometheus! I like your analysis! Thanks for sharing this! : ) Mish Prometheus wrote: This time Klemp tells about Rumi and his teacher the ECK Master
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Jul 17, 2005
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                                        Hi, Prometheus!

                                        I like your analysis! Thanks for sharing this! : )

                                        Mish

                                        Prometheus wrote:


                                        This time Klemp tells about Rumi and his teacher the ECK Master
                                        Shamus-i-Tabriz.

                                        To recap: In the June 2005 Mystic World Klemp talked about Milarepa
                                        (11th Century) and his beer drinking, difficult, and secret (newly
                                        created) ECK Master Marpa. By the way, were the Four Zoas (laws) of
                                        Eckankar in effect then? Beer drinking (alcohol) for ECK Masters
                                        (High Initiates) is forbidden according to the 1st Zoa (Shariyat 2,
                                        pg.283). Therefore, was Marpa really still qualified to initiate
                                        Milarepa and was Milarepa therefore qualified to be the
                                        L.E.M./Mahanta and so on and so forth for all of those afterwards?
                                        Remember, this is pre-Rebazar (excuse) too! Harold stuck his foot in
                                        his mouth it would seem. Eckists seem to turn a deaf ear and blind
                                        eye to it all while numbly and mindlessly trusting that these words
                                        don't really indicate a flaw in logic or dogma. Why was Klemp so
                                        stupid to mention this! It's because he's so arrogant and secure
                                        with his delusions! Eckists will believe anything and everything
                                        their leader tells them. Of course, we former Eckists know that
                                        Twitch was the first to make it all up as the 1st L.E.M., and Klemp
                                        continues the con. Maybe he just needs to use the excuse of "Catch-
                                        22!"

                                        It seems Klemp's whole purpose in mentioning this "history" of ECK
                                        Masters in both publications is to compete with and top "Sri"
                                        Michael Owens (thewayoftruth.com)! I found it interesting that Klemp
                                        states, "Shamus was a hard teacher." Klemp is not only attempting to
                                        re-enforce his (Klemp's) authenticity and authority, but also to
                                        justify his hard-handedness to the entire Eckankar membership.
                                        According to Klemp, Mapa was a "difficult" teacher, Shamus was
                                        a "hard" teacher; therefore, HK must be hellish! Actually, Klemp is
                                        just B.S.ing Eckists to make it seem that his unloving harshness,
                                        censorship, and control tactics are for one's own good. It's not
                                        true, of course. Klemp only has the power Eckists give him! Eckists
                                        have allowed Klemp to entrap their own Souls!

                                        Here's an interesting quote: "Shamus met him in the marketplace, and
                                        this encounter threw Rumi into a daze. It vaulted him to a greater
                                        state of consciousness. What mortal enjoyed such divine power as
                                        Shamus?" Well, since the Eckankar Lexicon states that Shamus was the
                                        L.E.M./Mahanta, then it seems Klemp is putting himself right up
                                        there too! Rumi, on the other hand, was just "a follower of ECK"
                                        (Eckankar Lexicon, pg. 102) and not even an Eck Master. This is why
                                        Klemp states that Rumi just experienced "a greater state of
                                        consciousness" instead of God-Realization. If HK had stated that
                                        Rumi had experienced God-Realization, then Rumi would have to be
                                        listed as more than just "a follower of ECK" in the Eckankar
                                        Lexicon. At least Klemp got that part of his tale correct! Still, it
                                        seems HK is also giving credence to his own 1970 "daze" to again
                                        validate his qualifications and to give his words merit. This is
                                        brain washing at its best. . . very subtle and not so forceful like
                                        Scientology. Still, there is that Twitchell connection to the
                                        Scientology cult!

                                        I found it interesting that Owens' site has a section that has Rumi
                                        talking as though he is still with us! Klemp, however, makes three
                                        distinct speculations about what happened to Shamus after he left
                                        Rumi. Klemp makes statements like: "other speculation; no one really
                                        knows; there are said; A third reason that Shamus may have left"
                                        etc. Klemp even suggests that Shamus could have been murdered by
                                        Rumi's disciples! Actually, Klemp seems to know what Shamus was
                                        thinking by describing it (at first) in terms that Judge Judy (of TV
                                        fame) might use, but then HK starts to backpedal and
                                        speculate. "Rumi, he felt needed 'to be cooked' by separation. After
                                        all, his first departure had seen in Rumi a far greater devotion to
                                        God. Yet he still leaned too heavily on Shamus; it was holding him
                                        back spiritually, so Shamus may have decided to pop Rumi back in the
                                        oven."

                                        Now this is interesting! Here Klemp states that Rumi could only
                                        become fully "cooked" spiritually if he was separated from his
                                        Master. So, since Rumi was unwilling to leave or say good-bye then
                                        Shamus did the right thing and let him go by walking away. . .
                                        maybe. Or maybe Shamus was assassinated! Two things come to mind.
                                        Why doesn't Klemp (the Mahanta) know the truth about Shamus since
                                        Shamus also possessed the Mahanta consciousness? Klemp screwed that
                                        up, didn't he! And secondly, why doesn't Klemp let his H.I.s go and
                                        allow them to become more fully "cooked" since he is, apparently,
                                        holding them "back spiritually!" "And so there we leave it."


                                        After this article is a small box that states: "The goal of an H.I.
                                        get-together is to strengthen you in your common purpose: to assist,
                                        through outer service, the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master in his
                                        mission to show Soul the way home to God." --Shree Klempster

                                        Now why doesn't Klemp just say what an H.I. "get-together" really
                                        is? It's a TRAINING, People! Klemp doesn't even capitalize "get-
                                        together" since it's to be thought of as a social gathering of
                                        sorts, but it's not! Yes, Eckists are now realizing their true goal
                                        and mission as pseudo Eck Masters in training (forever) is not God-
                                        Realization, but to recruit more paying members! Who'd a thunk!

                                        Prometheus
                                      • ctecvie
                                        Hello Prometheus, ... Oh yes, I forgot. Too complicated for my limited brain! ;-) ... Realization ... By that time, the Mahanta dependency is so great that
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Jul 19, 2005
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                                          Hello Prometheus,

                                          > ***True, nobody except Klemp (or his male replacements) will ever
                                          > attain "Eck mastership." But there are different promises for each
                                          > initiation level.

                                          Oh yes, I forgot. Too complicated for my limited brain! ;-)

                                          > With the 2nd thru 4th initiations it's not having
                                          > to return to earth for future incarnations. At the 5th it's also
                                          > being established on the 5th "Soul" Plane, having past life karma
                                          > resolved, and reaching Self or Soul Realization/Consciousness. The
                                          > 6th and 7th initiations offer Spiritual Realization (and "settler"
                                          > positions) and a step closer to the golden carrot of God
                                          Realization
                                          > (Eck Mastership) and spiritual liberation. However, the more
                                          > initiations and years of delusion tends to take its toll on one's
                                          > ability to see/think more clearly (without Mahanta dependence).

                                          By that time, the Mahanta dependency is so great that you'd rather
                                          not contemplate anything critical any more. Because it's difficult to
                                          let go of all the years and years of serious work to become a co-
                                          worker with God and the mahanta. I know a 6th initiate who, after
                                          having read Ford Johnson's book and getting into serious doubts about
                                          Eckankar, eventually went back to Eckankar. He has received his 7th
                                          by now, and I hope he is happy now where he is. I let him know that I
                                          didn't understand how it was possible that after all he knew, to go
                                          back to Eckankar. Well, that was when I was still a bit naive! Today,
                                          I understand that people feel the need to go back. Now, I am better
                                          able to wish them well and to let them go.


                                          > Eckists on these initiation levels, especially the 7th and 8th,
                                          tend
                                          > to see themselves on higher "inner" initiation levels too.

                                          Yes there was a long-time eckist who, due to personal circumstances,
                                          was a 2nd initiate only. She thought herself much higher than her
                                          outer initiation. While I can understand that this happens, I
                                          couldn't really follow her in this case - she thought she had reached
                                          initiation level 20 or higher. That was definitely too high for me! :-
                                          )

                                          > Eckists are taught to
                                          > be co-dependent on the outer/inner "Master," through contradictions
                                          > (i.e., self-reliance) and deception (i.e., spiritual freedom and
                                          Eck
                                          > Mastership).

                                          Oh yes this is so. And that's what I consider as spiritual crime by
                                          Harold Klemp.

                                          > As I pointed out before in regards to the Masters 4
                                          > Discourse Lesson 2 on the Nineth Initiation... there are three
                                          > stages and the third and final stage to that initiation is
                                          > confirmation on the outer! Therefore, wouldn't all initiations have
                                          > the same requirements? How then can Eckists think that they
                                          > are "higher" than their membership cards indicate? This is the same
                                          > kind of delusion that is prevalent, necessary, and required to
                                          > follow all of the Eck dogma! Silly isn't it!

                                          Silly and tragic at the same time! But, we all are where we need to
                                          be at the moment. I think that if Eckists are well informed about the
                                          critics that exist about Eckankar, and if they still choose it to be
                                          their path, then so it be. But there are so many out there who have
                                          no idea about what Eckankar is really about. And they truly believe
                                          and this belief and the love they put into the path are abused.
                                          That's a crime!

                                          >But, if one doesn't
                                          > have anything better to replace it (Eckankar) with then it does
                                          give
                                          > a false sense of security. It's really too bad that true spiritual
                                          > freedom from Twitchell's and Klemp's con is only achieved when one
                                          > sees through the deceit, sees real truth and then has the courage
                                          to
                                          > act on it!

                                          > ***True, I met some very nice people and some as deluded as I was!

                                          Me, too! ;-)

                                          >I
                                          > also met a lot of social misfits that "hid out" with their higher
                                          > initiations. Most Eckists will overlook "quirky behavior" if that
                                          > person is an H.I.

                                          How true! I know of resas (as do you, too, I believe) who really
                                          exercise strict power in their country. They boost certain people
                                          they like in the region, while they ignore people they don't like. Of
                                          course this is very human behavior, but it needs to be acknowledged
                                          as such and not hid behind pretentions of "higher development". This
                                          is where deceit begins in my opinion.


                                          > ***Yes, Mario is extremely quirky! I found it interesting that Ford
                                          > allows him to post his innuendo's and veiled threats while
                                          typically
                                          > Not contributing anything of spiritual value or of higher
                                          > consciousness. One has to wonder if this is Ford's Archilles heel,
                                          > or if something else is taking place. Why is it that B&M can do no
                                          > wrong when they are so wrong! What's Ford's game in turning a blind
                                          > eye to their misbehavior and the cult/con promotions?

                                          Well, at the moment all is quiet. Are they rethinking the issue or
                                          just planning another strategy? :-)
                                          Ingrid
                                        • prometheus_973
                                          Hi Ingrid, ... attain Eck mastership. But there are different promises for each initiation level. ... No no, it is somewhat complicated, but not too much for
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Jul 19, 2005
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                                            Hi Ingrid,


                                            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "ctecvie"
                                            <ctecvie@y...> wrote:
                                            >Hello Prometheus,

                                            >***True, nobody except Klemp (or his male replacements) will ever
                                            attain "Eck mastership." But there are different promises for each
                                            initiation level.

                                            >Oh yes, I forgot. Too complicated for my limited brain! ;-)

                                            No no, it is somewhat complicated, but not too much for you to
                                            understand. One just needs more years of indoctrination and intense
                                            brainwashing of the dogma. That's what those leadership classes are
                                            for!


                                            >***With the 2nd thru 4th initiations it's not having to return to
                                            earth for future incarnations. At the 5th it's also being
                                            established on the 5th "Soul" Plane, having past life karma
                                            resolved, and reaching Self or Soul Realization/Consciousness. The
                                            6th and 7th initiations offer Spiritual Realization (and
                                            higher "settler" positions) and a step closer to the golden carrot
                                            of God Realization Eck Mastership) and spiritual liberation.
                                            However, the more initiations and years of delusion tends to take
                                            its toll on one's ability to see/think more clearly (without Mahanta
                                            dependence).

                                            >By that time, the Mahanta dependency is so great that you'd rather
                                            not contemplate anything critical any more. Because it's difficult
                                            to let go of all the years and years of serious work to become a co-
                                            worker with God and the mahanta. I know a 6th initiate who, after
                                            having read Ford Johnson's book and getting into serious doubts
                                            about Eckankar, eventually went back to Eckankar. He has received
                                            his 7th by now, and I hope he is happy now where he is. I let him
                                            know that I didn't understand how it was possible that after all he
                                            knew, to go back to Eckankar. Well, that was when I was still a bit
                                            naive! Today, I understand that people feel the need to go back.
                                            Now, I am better able to wish them well and to let them go.

                                            True, critical thinking in regards to Eckankar has been eliminated
                                            due to total acceptance and trust. One no longer has to think. It's
                                            like being in the military and doing what you are told. Eckankar
                                            even has a hierarchy like the military does. Klemp did say that he
                                            enjoyed his time in the U.S. Air Force, and in the Luthern seminary
                                            in went to as well.

                                            If this 6th initiate let anyone know that he had read Ford's book
                                            and had doubts about Eckankar... then I'm not so sure that he has
                                            received his 7th by now. If I was his RESA I'd have put him on a
                                            five year probation!

                                            >***Eckists on these initiation levels, especially the 7th and 8th,
                                            tend to see themselves on higher "inner" initiation levels too.

                                            >Yes there was a long-time eckist who, due to personal
                                            circumstances, was a 2nd initiate only. She thought herself much
                                            higher than her outer initiation. While I can understand that this
                                            happens, I couldn't really follow her in this case - she thought she
                                            had reached initiation level 20 or higher. That was definitely too
                                            high for me! :-)

                                            Yes, there are many long time lower initiate Eckists out there that
                                            are vain and deluded. They don't keep up with their paid memberships
                                            and they don't take satsang classes and they don't volunteer and yet
                                            they think they have higher inner initiations, and even higher than
                                            what Klemp even claims to have. They really don't get it! One has to
                                            buy into the whole package and abide by all of the dogma and
                                            guidelines instead of picking and choosing what one's deluded ego
                                            wants to believe. Funny, but there are many higher initiates that
                                            are just as bad with their own egomania and self-deceptions.

                                            >***Eckists are taught to be co-dependent on the
                                            outer/inner "Master," through contradictions (i.e., self-reliance)
                                            and deception (i.e., spiritual freedom and Eck Mastership).

                                            >Oh yes this is so. And that's what I consider as spiritual crime by
                                            Harold Klemp.

                                            True, HK is a spiritual criminal!

                                            >***As I pointed out before in regards to the Masters 4 Discourse
                                            Lesson 2 on the Nineth Initiation... there are three stages and the
                                            third and final stage to that initiation is confirmation on the
                                            outer! Therefore, wouldn't all initiations have the same
                                            requirements? How then can Eckists think that they are "higher" than
                                            their membership cards indicate? This is the same kind of delusion
                                            that is prevalent, necessary, and required to follow all of the Eck
                                            dogma! Silly isn't it!

                                            >Silly and tragic at the same time! But, we all are where we need to
                                            be at the moment. I think that if Eckists are well informed about
                                            the critics that exist about Eckankar, and if they still choose it
                                            to be their path, then so it be. But there are so many out there who
                                            have no idea about what Eckankar is really about. And they truly
                                            believe and this belief and the love they put into the path are
                                            abused. That's a crime!

                                            Yes, Eckists should not be afraid to read something that is critical
                                            of Eckankar or of Klemp. They just need to read the material with an
                                            open mind and contemplate on whether it makes sense or contains some
                                            truth that should be researched further.

                                            >***But, if one doesn't have anything better to replace it
                                            (Eckankar) with then it does give a false sense of security. It's
                                            really too bad that true spiritual freedom from Twitchell's and
                                            Klemp's con is only achieved when one sees through the deceit, sees
                                            real truth and then has the courage to act on it!

                                            >***True, I met some very nice people and some as deluded as I was!

                                            >Me, too! ;-)

                                            >***I also met a lot of social misfits that "hid out" with their
                                            higher initiations. Most Eckists will overlook "quirky behavior" if
                                            that person is an H.I.

                                            >How true! I know of resas (as do you, too, I believe) who really
                                            exercise strict power in their country. They boost certain people
                                            they like in the region, while they ignore people they don't like.
                                            Of course this is very human behavior, but it needs to be
                                            acknowledged as such and not hid behind pretentions of "higher
                                            development". This is where deceit begins in my opinion.

                                            Yes, I know very strict RESAs who follow the guidelines precisely,
                                            very permissive ones who follow the guidelines loosely and delegate
                                            everything, and those who are a combination of both. All, however,
                                            seem to have their favorites for one reason or another.


                                            >***Yes, Mario is extremely quirky! I found it interesting that Ford
                                            allows him to post his innuendo's and veiled threats while typically
                                            Not contributing anything of spiritual value or of higher
                                            consciousness. One has to wonder if this is Ford's Archilles heel,
                                            or if something else is taking place. Why is it that B&M can do no
                                            wrong when they are so wrong! What's Ford's game in turning a blind
                                            eye to their misbehavior and the cult/con promotions?

                                            >Well, at the moment all is quiet. Are they rethinking the issue or
                                            just planning another strategy? :-)

                                            I would say that they are preparing a couple of very long posts on
                                            the current TS/HCS topic in order to justify their past positions
                                            and to tie it all into some kind of spiritual/educational mission.
                                            Just a guess!

                                            Prometheus
                                          • ctecvie
                                            Hello Prometheus, ... intense ... are ... Indeed! When I started the leadership training, I didn t know that my leaving was only a few weeks ahead. So I had 2
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Jul 20, 2005
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                                              Hello Prometheus,


                                              > No no, it is somewhat complicated, but not too much for you to
                                              > understand. One just needs more years of indoctrination and
                                              intense
                                              > brainwashing of the dogma. That's what those leadership classes
                                              are
                                              > for!

                                              Indeed! When I started the leadership training, I didn't know that
                                              my leaving was only a few weeks ahead. So I had 2 of those trainings
                                              and the handbook of course. What I found good was that you could
                                              concentrate on something positive in your day-to-day life because
                                              the exercises were meant to be made between the trainings. But, of
                                              course then there was that recruiting aspect - selling the teachings
                                              to others. I was really glad that I didn't get far enough to be
                                              really "trained". Before I gave away the book, I read it till the
                                              end and I know I couldn't have put up with those techniques. So I am
                                              glad I found Confessions - but I think either way, I wouldn't have
                                              lasted much longer in Eckankar. In any case it would have been a
                                              book that would have brought me away - hadn't it been Confessions,
                                              it would have been the leadership handbook for sure! ;-)

                                              > True, critical thinking in regards to Eckankar has been eliminated
                                              > due to total acceptance and trust. One no longer has to think.
                                              It's
                                              > like being in the military and doing what you are told. Eckankar
                                              > even has a hierarchy like the military does. Klemp did say that he
                                              > enjoyed his time in the U.S. Air Force, and in the Luthern
                                              seminary
                                              > in went to as well.

                                              HK talks about his military career quite a bit indeed as far as I
                                              remember. And, of course, you don't ask because you get everything
                                              on the inner. By the way, I have read recently that Kirpal Singh,
                                              Paul's master whom Paul forgot to acknowledge later on, didn't think
                                              very highly about experiences or soul travel in dreams. He rated the
                                              conscious travels - in the waking state much higher because he
                                              thought dreams couldn't really be relied upon. Interesting aspect
                                              for me!

                                              >Funny, but there are many higher initiates that
                                              > are just as bad with their own egomania and self-deceptions.

                                              Well, good and long practice ... ;-)

                                              > >***But, if one doesn't have anything better to replace it
                                              > (Eckankar) with then it does give a false sense of security.

                                              There are people who wouldn't have anything left without the
                                              teachings. It would be cruel to take it from them, and if they are
                                              ready to take the step, then it's a huge difficulty for them, which
                                              I understand. Not easy at all, and a lot of courage is needed!

                                              Ingrid
                                            • ctecvie
                                              Hello Prometheus, ... I don t know how many knew of this. He had told us about Ford Johnson and thus contributed a great deal to our leaving and spiritual
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Jul 20, 2005
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                                                Hello Prometheus,

                                                I forgot one comment in my previous post:

                                                > If this 6th initiate let anyone know that he had read Ford's book
                                                > and had doubts about Eckankar... then I'm not so sure that he has
                                                > received his 7th by now. If I was his RESA I'd have put him on a
                                                > five year probation!

                                                I don't know how many knew of this. He had told us about Ford
                                                Johnson and thus contributed a great deal to our leaving and
                                                spiritual liberation. :-) He then told me personally that he would
                                                not leave Eckankar because Ford's path was based on destruction and
                                                that this was something PT hadn't done. I told him that if he
                                                thought that all the lies were better, well ... And I told him that
                                                I would not congratulate him on the 7th (because he had received it
                                                by then) because due to the knowledge gained from reading Ford's
                                                book, he must know that this isn't worth anything. I haven't heard
                                                from him much since. It's a pity because he is a beautiful
                                                individual and very smart. Well, that's life I guess! :-))

                                                Ingrid
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