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Eckankar: The H.I. Letter June 2005

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  • prometheus_973
    This time Klemp tells about Rumi and his teacher the ECK Master Shamus-i-Tabriz. To recap: In the June 2005 Mystic World Klemp talked about Milarepa (11th
    Message 1 of 23 , Jul 10, 2005
      This time Klemp tells about Rumi and his teacher the ECK Master
      Shamus-i-Tabriz.

      To recap: In the June 2005 Mystic World Klemp talked about Milarepa
      (11th Century) and his beer drinking, difficult, and secret (newly
      created) ECK Master Marpa. By the way, were the Four Zoas (laws) of
      Eckankar in effect then? Beer drinking (alcohol) for ECK Masters
      (High Initiates) is forbidden according to the 1st Zoa (Shariyat 2,
      pg.283). Therefore, was Marpa really still qualified to initiate
      Milarepa and was Milarepa therefore qualified to be the
      L.E.M./Mahanta and so on and so forth for all of those afterwards?
      Remember, this is pre-Rebazar (excuse) too! Harold stuck his foot in
      his mouth it would seem. Eckists seem to turn a deaf ear and blind
      eye to it all while numbly and mindlessly trusting that these words
      don't really indicate a flaw in logic or dogma. Why was Klemp so
      stupid to mention this! It's because he's so arrogant and secure
      with his delusions! Eckists will believe anything and everything
      their leader tells them. Of course, we former Eckists know that
      Twitch was the first to make it all up as the 1st L.E.M., and Klemp
      continues the con. Maybe he just needs to use the excuse of "Catch-
      22!"

      It seems Klemp's whole purpose in mentioning this "history" of ECK
      Masters in both publications is to compete with and top "Sri"
      Michael Owens (thewayoftruth.com)! I found it interesting that Klemp
      states, "Shamus was a hard teacher." Klemp is not only attempting to
      re-enforce his (Klemp's) authenticity and authority, but also to
      justify his hard-handedness to the entire Eckankar membership.
      According to Klemp, Mapa was a "difficult" teacher, Shamus was
      a "hard" teacher; therefore, HK must be hellish! Actually, Klemp is
      just B.S.ing Eckists to make it seem that his unloving harshness,
      censorship, and control tactics are for one's own good. It's not
      true, of course. Klemp only has the power Eckists give him! Eckists
      have allowed Klemp to entrap their own Souls!

      Here's an interesting quote: "Shamus met him in the marketplace, and
      this encounter threw Rumi into a daze. It vaulted him to a greater
      state of consciousness. What mortal enjoyed such divine power as
      Shamus?" Well, since the Eckankar Lexicon states that Shamus was the
      L.E.M./Mahanta, then it seems Klemp is putting himself right up
      there too! Rumi, on the other hand, was just "a follower of ECK"
      (Eckankar Lexicon, pg. 102) and not even an Eck Master. This is why
      Klemp states that Rumi just experienced "a greater state of
      consciousness" instead of God-Realization. If HK had stated that
      Rumi had experienced God-Realization, then Rumi would have to be
      listed as more than just "a follower of ECK" in the Eckankar
      Lexicon. At least Klemp got that part of his tale correct! Still, it
      seems HK is also giving credence to his own 1970 "daze" to again
      validate his qualifications and to give his words merit. This is
      brain washing at its best. . . very subtle and not so forceful like
      Scientology. Still, there is that Twitchell connection to the
      Scientology cult!

      I found it interesting that Owens' site has a section that has Rumi
      talking as though he is still with us! Klemp, however, makes three
      distinct speculations about what happened to Shamus after he left
      Rumi. Klemp makes statements like: "other speculation; no one really
      knows; there are said; A third reason that Shamus may have left"
      etc. Klemp even suggests that Shamus could have been murdered by
      Rumi's disciples! Actually, Klemp seems to know what Shamus was
      thinking by describing it (at first) in terms that Judge Judy (of TV
      fame) might use, but then HK starts to backpedal and
      speculate. "Rumi, he felt needed 'to be cooked' by separation. After
      all, his first departure had seen in Rumi a far greater devotion to
      God. Yet he still leaned too heavily on Shamus; it was holding him
      back spiritually, so Shamus may have decided to pop Rumi back in the
      oven."

      Now this is interesting! Here Klemp states that Rumi could only
      become fully "cooked" spiritually if he was separated from his
      Master. So, since Rumi was unwilling to leave or say good-bye then
      Shamus did the right thing and let him go by walking away. . .
      maybe. Or maybe Shamus was assassinated! Two things come to mind.
      Why doesn't Klemp (the Mahanta) know the truth about Shamus since
      Shamus also possessed the Mahanta consciousness? Klemp screwed that
      up, didn't he! And secondly, why doesn't Klemp let his H.I.s go and
      allow them to become more fully "cooked" since he is, apparently,
      holding them "back spiritually!" "And so there we leave it."


      After this article is a small box that states: "The goal of an H.I.
      get-together is to strengthen you in your common purpose: to assist,
      through outer service, the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master in his
      mission to show Soul the way home to God." --Shree Klempster

      Now why doesn't Klemp just say what an H.I. "get-together" really
      is? It's a TRAINING, People! Klemp doesn't even capitalize "get-
      together" since it's to be thought of as a social gathering of
      sorts, but it's not! Yes, Eckists are now realizing their true goal
      and mission as pseudo Eck Masters in training (forever) is not God-
      Realization, but to recruit more paying members! Who'd a thunk!

      Prometheus
    • ctecvie
      Hello Prometheus, thank you for your analysis, I enjoyed it thoroughly as always. :-) ... Milarepa ... of ... 2, ... It was too early, Prometheus ...! :-) I
      Message 2 of 23 , Jul 11, 2005
        Hello Prometheus,

        thank you for your analysis, I enjoyed it thoroughly as always. :-)

        > To recap: In the June 2005 Mystic World Klemp talked about
        Milarepa
        > (11th Century) and his beer drinking, difficult, and secret (newly
        > created) ECK Master Marpa. By the way, were the Four Zoas (laws)
        of
        > Eckankar in effect then? Beer drinking (alcohol) for ECK Masters
        > (High Initiates) is forbidden according to the 1st Zoa (Shariyat
        2,
        > pg.283).

        It was too early, Prometheus ...! :-) I think there were not enough
        masters so they took what they could get, beer-drinking or not. ;-)
        Like the initiations given in Paul's times - some Eckists even got
        two on the same day (the fourth and the fifth!)!

        > Therefore, was Marpa really still qualified to initiate
        > Milarepa and was Milarepa therefore qualified to be the
        > L.E.M./Mahanta and so on and so forth for all of those afterwards?
        > Remember, this is pre-Rebazar (excuse) too! Harold stuck his foot
        in
        > his mouth it would seem. Eckists seem to turn a deaf ear and blind
        > eye to it all while numbly and mindlessly trusting that these
        words
        > don't really indicate a flaw in logic or dogma. Why was Klemp so
        > stupid to mention this! It's because he's so arrogant and secure
        > with his delusions! Eckists will believe anything and everything
        > their leader tells them.

        They do indeed. Remember, it's so "spiritual". Just don't ask
        questions - it's too mental, and don't criticize!

        > Of course, we former Eckists know that
        > Twitch was the first to make it all up as the 1st L.E.M., and
        Klemp
        > continues the con. Maybe he just needs to use the excuse of "Catch-
        > 22!"

        There are also Eckists who have heard of that. And they continue to
        believe - well, that's too much for me to understand! My brain is
        just not big enough. :-)

        >
        > It seems Klemp's whole purpose in mentioning this "history" of ECK
        > Masters in both publications is to compete with and top "Sri"
        > Michael Owens (thewayoftruth.com)! I found it interesting that
        Klemp
        > states, "Shamus was a hard teacher." Klemp is not only attempting
        to
        > re-enforce his (Klemp's) authenticity and authority, but also to
        > justify his hard-handedness to the entire Eckankar membership.
        > According to Klemp, Mapa was a "difficult" teacher, Shamus was
        > a "hard" teacher; therefore, HK must be hellish!

        Indeed he is with all the BS he is promoting ...

        > Actually, Klemp is
        > just B.S.ing Eckists to make it seem that his unloving harshness,
        > censorship, and control tactics are for one's own good. It's not
        > true, of course. Klemp only has the power Eckists give him!
        Eckists
        > have allowed Klemp to entrap their own Souls!

        It's difficult to see when you are in it. But when you are out of
        it, nothing can stop us to see it crystal clearly!

        >
        > Here's an interesting quote: "Shamus met him in the marketplace,
        and
        > this encounter threw Rumi into a daze. It vaulted him to a greater
        > state of consciousness. What mortal enjoyed such divine power as
        > Shamus?" Well, since the Eckankar Lexicon states that Shamus was
        the
        > L.E.M./Mahanta, then it seems Klemp is putting himself right up
        > there too! Rumi, on the other hand, was just "a follower of ECK"
        > (Eckankar Lexicon, pg. 102) and not even an Eck Master.

        He was not?! I thought he was! But I was ever so confused by all
        those masters ...

        > This is why
        > Klemp states that Rumi just experienced "a greater state of
        > consciousness" instead of God-Realization. If HK had stated that
        > Rumi had experienced God-Realization, then Rumi would have to be
        > listed as more than just "a follower of ECK" in the Eckankar
        > Lexicon. At least Klemp got that part of his tale correct! Still,
        it
        > seems HK is also giving credence to his own 1970 "daze" to again
        > validate his qualifications and to give his words merit. This is
        > brain washing at its best. . . very subtle and not so forceful
        like
        > Scientology. Still, there is that Twitchell connection to the
        > Scientology cult!

        You know that initiates at Twitchell's time were not so highly
        developed than nowadays ... that's what Eckankar says. Well, the
        same seems to be the case with the Eck masters!

        >
        > I found it interesting that Owens' site has a section that has
        Rumi
        > talking as though he is still with us! Klemp, however, makes three
        > distinct speculations about what happened to Shamus after he left
        > Rumi. Klemp makes statements like: "other speculation; no one
        really
        > knows; there are said; A third reason that Shamus may have left"
        > etc. Klemp even suggests that Shamus could have been murdered by
        > Rumi's disciples! Actually, Klemp seems to know what Shamus was
        > thinking by describing it (at first) in terms that Judge Judy (of
        TV
        > fame) might use, but then HK starts to backpedal and
        > speculate. "Rumi, he felt needed 'to be cooked' by separation.
        After
        > all, his first departure had seen in Rumi a far greater devotion
        to
        > God. Yet he still leaned too heavily on Shamus; it was holding him
        > back spiritually, so Shamus may have decided to pop Rumi back in
        the
        > oven."

        How many seekers is HK holding back?! This is a spiritual crime ...

        >
        > Now this is interesting! Here Klemp states that Rumi could only
        > become fully "cooked" spiritually if he was separated from his
        > Master. So, since Rumi was unwilling to leave or say good-bye then
        > Shamus did the right thing and let him go by walking away. . .
        > maybe. Or maybe Shamus was assassinated! Two things come to mind.
        > Why doesn't Klemp (the Mahanta) know the truth about Shamus since
        > Shamus also possessed the Mahanta consciousness? Klemp screwed
        that
        > up, didn't he!

        Nobody will ever ask because you don't ask the mahanta! Even if it's
        ever so illogical, nobody will question HK, the godman!

        > And secondly, why doesn't Klemp let his H.I.s go and
        > allow them to become more fully "cooked" since he is, apparently,
        > holding them "back spiritually!" "And so there we leave it."

        He uses more threats than ever to keep his followers ...
        >
        >
        > After this article is a small box that states: "The goal of an
        H.I.
        > get-together is to strengthen you in your common purpose: to
        assist,
        > through outer service, the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master in his
        > mission to show Soul the way home to God." --Shree Klempster
        >
        > Now why doesn't Klemp just say what an H.I. "get-together" really
        > is? It's a TRAINING, People! Klemp doesn't even capitalize "get-
        > together" since it's to be thought of as a social gathering of
        > sorts, but it's not! Yes, Eckists are now realizing their true
        goal
        > and mission as pseudo Eck Masters in training (forever) is not God-
        > Realization, but to recruit more paying members! Who'd a thunk!

        It's disguised as a get-together. But remember - Eckists don't
        socialize when they meet! It's not for "social" purposes that
        eckists meet, just for "spiritual" ones. Eckankar doesn't like to
        call their get-togethers "social"! So, apparently they are admitting
        that it's for some other purpose they are getting together ...

        Ingrid
      • mishmisha9
        Prometheus, Since Klemp uses the term fully cooked in his H.I. Letter, do you think he actually watches Judge Judy? I didn t think Harold watched TV, because
        Message 3 of 23 , Jul 13, 2005
          Prometheus,

          Since Klemp uses the term "fully cooked" in his H.I. Letter, do you
          think he actually watches Judge Judy? I didn't think Harold watched
          TV, because he suffers from that weird EMR disease. But perhaps that
          is just a Klemp myth--a sort of conspiracy created to keep Eckists
          away from TVs and computers where they might be exposed to the
          Truth??? It seems to be a disease that Eckists do contract--I
          learned of at least two having it before leaving Eckankar! Curious
          that they both are H.I.s--those higher vibrations are so sensitive,
          aren't they! : )

          Mish

          Prometheus wrote:

          Klemp even suggests that Shamus could have been murdered by
          > Rumi's disciples! Actually, Klemp seems to know what Shamus was
          > thinking by describing it (at first) in terms that Judge Judy (of
          TV
          > fame) might use, but then HK starts to backpedal and
          > speculate. "Rumi, he felt needed 'to be cooked' by separation.
          After
          > all, his first departure had seen in Rumi a far greater devotion
          to
          > God. Yet he still leaned too heavily on Shamus; it was holding him
          > back spiritually, so Shamus may have decided to pop Rumi back in
          the
          > oven."
          >
          > Now this is interesting! Here Klemp states that Rumi could only
          > become fully "cooked" spiritually if he was separated from his
          > Master. So, since Rumi was unwilling to leave or say good-bye then
          > Shamus did the right thing and let him go by walking away. . .
          > maybe. Or maybe Shamus was assassinated! Two things come to mind.
          > Why doesn't Klemp (the Mahanta) know the truth about Shamus since
          > Shamus also possessed the Mahanta consciousness? Klemp screwed
          that
          > up, didn't he! And secondly, why doesn't Klemp let his H.I.s go
          and
          > allow them to become more fully "cooked" since he is, apparently,
          > holding them "back spiritually!" "And so there we leave it."
          >
        • prometheus_973
          Hi Ingrid, ... thank you for your analysis, I enjoyed it thoroughly as always. :- ... Milarepa (11th Century) and his beer drinking, difficult, and secret
          Message 4 of 23 , Jul 13, 2005
            Hi Ingrid,

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "ctecvie"
            <ctecvie@y...> wrote:
            >Hello Prometheus,
            thank you for your analysis, I enjoyed it thoroughly as always. :-

            >>To recap: In the June 2005 Mystic World Klemp talked about
            Milarepa (11th Century) and his beer drinking, difficult, and secret
            (newly created) ECK Master Marpa. By the way, were the Four Zoas
            (laws) of Eckankar in effect then? Beer drinking (alcohol) for ECK
            Masters (High Initiates) is forbidden according to the 1st Zoa
            (Shariyat 2, pg.283).

            >It was too early, Prometheus ...! :-) I think there were not enough
            masters so they took what they could get, beer-drinking or not. ;-)
            Like the initiations given in Paul's times - some Eckists even got
            two on the same day (the fourth and the fifth!)!

            *Actually, according to Twitchell's Eckankar Dictionary these so
            called "ECK (Eckankar) Masters" have been around for thousands of
            years. Just look at Gakko, Rama, and Malati! So, therefore, what
            ever happened to quality over quanity? This is the biggest flaw that
            Eckankar, HCS, and all other organizations and religions have. Then
            again, a bigger flaw is that they don't seem to care either!


            >>Therefore, was Marpa really still qualified to initiate Milarepa
            and was Milarepa therefore qualified to be the L.E.M./Mahanta and so
            on and so forth for all of those afterwards? Remember, this is pre-
            Rebazar (excuse) too! Harold stuck his foot in his mouth it would
            seem. Eckists seem to turn a deaf ear and blind eye to it all while
            numbly and mindlessly trusting that these words don't really
            indicate a flaw in logic or dogma. Why was Klemp so stupid to
            mention this! It's because he's so arrogant and secure with his
            delusions! Eckists will believe anything and everything their leader
            tells them.

            >They do indeed. Remember, it's so "spiritual". Just don't ask
            questions - it's too mental, and don't criticize!

            *Yes, Eckists shouldn't be Astral (plane) and emotional or Mental
            (plane) and so analytical as to question the leadership. There is a
            stigma to conform and those who don't understand and follow this
            don't get the initiations. But, many Eckists are just happy with the
            promises of the 2nd Initiation and not having to return in another
            lifetime! These are carefree Souls who are not fully committed to
            all of the dogma or guidelines (trainings, etc.).

            >>Of course, we former Eckists know that Twitch was the first to
            make it all up as the 1st L.E.M., and Klemp continues the con. Maybe
            he just needs to use the excuse of "Catch-22!"

            >There are also Eckists who have heard of that. And they continue to
            believe - well, that's too much for me to understand! My brain is
            just not big enough. :-)


            >>It seems Klemp's whole purpose in mentioning this "history" of ECK
            Masters in both publications is to compete with and top "Sri"
            Michael Owens (thewayoftruth.com)! I found it interesting that Klemp
            states, "Shamus was a hard teacher." Klemp is not only attempting to
            re-enforce his (Klemp's) authenticity and authority, but also to
            justify his hard-handedness to the entire Eckankar membership.
            According to Klemp, Mapa was a "difficult" teacher, Shamus was
            a "hard" teacher; therefore, HK must be hellish!

            >Indeed he is with all the BS he is promoting ...

            >>Actually, Klemp is just B.S.ing Eckists to make it seem that his
            unloving harshness, censorship, and control tactics are for one's
            own good. It's not true, of course. Klemp only has the power Eckists
            give him! Eckists have allowed Klemp to entrap their own Souls!

            >It's difficult to see when you are in it. But when you are out of
            it, nothing can stop us to see it crystal clearly!

            *Yes, the Truth has set us free! This is a much more difficult path
            in some ways because our Self-Responsibility has become greater
            without the co-dependency of a "Living Master/ Mahanta."

            >>Here's an interesting quote: "Shamus met him in the marketplace,
            and this encounter threw Rumi into a daze. It vaulted him to a
            greater state of consciousness. What mortal enjoyed such divine
            power as Shamus?" Well, since the Eckankar Lexicon states that
            Shamus was the L.E.M./Mahanta, then it seems Klemp is putting
            himself right up there too! Rumi, on the other hand, was just "a
            follower of ECK" (Eckankar Lexicon, pg. 102) and not even an Eck
            Master.

            >He was not?! I thought he was! But I was ever so confused by all
            those masters ...

            *I know, everyone is confused to some degree. The best thing for
            Eckists is Not to pay too much attention to words. Words and
            thoughts are too confusing when all you need is love. Yes, love is
            all you need. SO, DON'T READ THE ECKANKAR LEXICON FROM COVER TO
            COVER!

            >>This is why Klemp states that Rumi just experienced "a greater
            state of consciousness" instead of God-Realization. If HK had stated
            that Rumi had experienced God-Realization, then Rumi would have to
            be listed as more than just "a follower of ECK" in the Eckankar
            Lexicon. At least Klemp got that part of his tale correct! Still, it
            seems HK is also giving credence to his own 1970 "daze" to again
            validate his qualifications and to give his words merit. This is
            brain washing at its best. . . very subtle and not so forceful like
            Scientology. Still, there is that Twitchell connection to the
            Scientology cult!

            >You know that initiates at Twitchell's time were not so highly
            developed than nowadays ... that's what Eckankar says. Well, the
            same seems to be the case with the Eck masters!

            *True, if Twitch wasn't as spiritually evolved in 1965 as the
            Klempster is today then where does that leave Rebazar? By this logic
            Rebazar had the consciousness of a 2nd Initiate when he stood in for
            Twitch and handed Darwin the Rod of ECK Power!

            >>I found it interesting that Owens' site has a section that has
            Rumi talking as though he is still with us! Klemp, however, makes
            three distinct speculations about what happened to Shamus after he
            left Rumi. Klemp makes statements like: "other speculation; no one
            really knows; there are said; A third reason that Shamus may have
            left" etc. Klemp even suggests that Shamus could have been murdered
            by Rumi's disciples! Actually, Klemp seems to know what Shamus was
            thinking by describing it (at first) in terms that Judge Judy (of
            TV fame) might use, but then HK starts to backpedal and
            speculate. "Rumi, he felt needed 'to be cooked' by separation. After
            all, his first departure had seen in Rumi a far greater devotion to
            God. Yet he still leaned too heavily on Shamus; it was holding him
            back spiritually, so Shamus may have decided to pop Rumi back in the
            oven."

            >How many seekers is HK holding back?! This is a spiritual crime ...

            *True, but it pays the bills!


            >>Now this is interesting! Here Klemp states that Rumi could only
            become fully "cooked" spiritually if he was separated from his
            Master. So, since Rumi was unwilling to leave or say good-bye then
            Shamus did the right thing and let him go by walking away. . .
            maybe. Or maybe Shamus was assassinated! Two things come to mind.
            Why doesn't Klemp (the Mahanta) know the truth about Shamus since
            Shamus also possessed the Mahanta consciousness? Klemp screwed that
            up, didn't he!

            >Nobody will ever ask because you don't ask the mahanta! Even if
            it's ever so illogical, nobody will question HK, the godman!

            *True, such questions, especially in a "monthly initiate report"
            will only get you watched by your RESA and possibly black-listed on
            initiations for three years minimun.

            >>And secondly, why doesn't Klemp let his H.I.s go and allow them to
            become more fully "cooked" since he is, apparently, holding
            them "back spiritually!" "And so there we leave it."

            >He uses more threats than ever to keep his followers ...

            *Yes, Klemp will use the threats from Twitchell's two Shariyats to
            keep people in line. But, why are these books by Twitchell okay
            while others are not up to the standards of current consciousness?
            Why hasn't Klemp written a Shariyat 3 or 4?

            >>After this article is a small box that states: "The goal of an
            H.I. get-together is to strengthen you in your common purpose: to
            assist, through outer service, the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master in
            his mission to show Soul the way home to God." --Shree Klempster
            Now why doesn't Klemp just say what an H.I. "get-together" really
            is? It's a TRAINING, People! Klemp doesn't even capitalize "get-
            together" since it's to be thought of as a social gathering of
            sorts, but it's not! Yes, Eckists are now realizing their true goal
            and mission as pseudo Eck Masters in training (forever) is not God-
            Realization, but to recruit more paying members! Who'd a thunk!

            >It's disguised as a get-together. But remember - Eckists don't
            socialize when they meet! It's not for "social" purposes that
            eckists meet, just for "spiritual" ones. Eckankar doesn't like to
            call their get-togethers "social"! So, apparently they are admitting
            that it's for some other purpose they are getting together ...

            *I always thought that the "Harji Potlucks" were kind of a way to
            socialize, although, we always had a "donation plate" out on a
            table. Yes, you're right! The only thing that I ever had in common
            with most Eckists was Eckankar! And they probably felt the same...
            so why even try to socialize with nothing else in common! I guess we
            felt guilt in not wanting to "love" everyone the same. There were
            exceptions though, and those are the Eckists that I still call,
            email, write to, and visit with.

            Prometheus
          • prometheus_973
            Hi Mish, True, Klemp s a liar! He watches TV and surfs the Internet! In 1990, when David Lane put his information of Eckankar on the Internet, is when Klemp
            Message 5 of 23 , Jul 13, 2005
              Hi Mish,

              True, Klemp's a liar! He watches TV and surfs the Internet! In 1990,
              when David Lane put his information of Eckankar on the Internet, is
              when Klemp first started to have "EMR health problems." Of course,
              many Eckists suddenly discovered their own health problems were
              related to EMR as well! Funny how that special (Mahanta
              suggested) "Golden-Tongued Wisdom" (self-fulfilling) prophecy thing
              works with highly suggestible people.

              Yes, Klemp just has to suggest something and half the Eckists will
              experience it in one form or another. They're "plugged in" but Not
              to the Eck (Holy Spirit), but to mass hypnotic suggestion and
              delusion. As above so below.

              Prometheus


              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
              <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:

              >Prometheus,
              Since Klemp uses the term "fully cooked" in his H.I. Letter, do you
              think he actually watches Judge Judy? I didn't think Harold watched
              TV, because he suffers from that weird EMR disease. But perhaps that
              is just a Klemp myth--a sort of conspiracy created to keep Eckists
              away from TVs and computers where they might be exposed to the
              Truth??? It seems to be a disease that Eckists do contract--I
              learned of at least two having it before leaving Eckankar! Curious
              that they both are H.I.s--those higher vibrations are so sensitive,
              aren't they! : )

              > Mish
              >
              > Prometheus wrote:
              >
              > Klemp even suggests that Shamus could have been murdered by
              > > Rumi's disciples! Actually, Klemp seems to know what Shamus was
              > > thinking by describing it (at first) in terms that Judge Judy
              (of
              > TV
              > > fame) might use, but then HK starts to backpedal and
              > > speculate. "Rumi, he felt needed 'to be cooked' by separation.
              > After
              > > all, his first departure had seen in Rumi a far greater devotion
              > to
              > > God. Yet he still leaned too heavily on Shamus; it was holding
              him
              > > back spiritually, so Shamus may have decided to pop Rumi back in
              > the
              > > oven."
              > >
              > > Now this is interesting! Here Klemp states that Rumi could only
              > > become fully "cooked" spiritually if he was separated from his
              > > Master. So, since Rumi was unwilling to leave or say good-bye
              then
              > > Shamus did the right thing and let him go by walking away. . .
              > > maybe. Or maybe Shamus was assassinated! Two things come to
              mind.
              > > Why doesn't Klemp (the Mahanta) know the truth about Shamus
              since
              > > Shamus also possessed the Mahanta consciousness? Klemp screwed
              > that
              > > up, didn't he! And secondly, why doesn't Klemp let his H.I.s go
              > and
              > > allow them to become more fully "cooked" since he is,
              apparently,
              > > holding them "back spiritually!" "And so there we leave it."
              > >
            • mishmisha9
              Regarding those Harji potlucks, I always found it helpful to either eat well before going or stop someplace afterwards to get a real meal! It seemed so much of
              Message 6 of 23 , Jul 13, 2005
                Regarding those Harji potlucks, I always found it helpful to either
                eat well before going or stop someplace afterwards to get a real meal!
                It seemed so much of the social discussion evolved around the "right"
                dietary food--avoid this and avoid that sort of discussion which was
                so boring and certainly took away from the enjoyment of the
                dining! : ) I did notice, however, how Eckists would swoop down on the
                meat dishes which were actually few and far between for the most part.
                Put a platter of turkey on the table and it would be gone in 30
                seconds! I don't miss those potlucks at all. . .

                Mish
              • Greg and Liz
                ... *** I probably shouldn t get in on this topic since I won t be around for a couple weeks. :-) But this is just too much fun! I have to share something
                Message 7 of 23 , Jul 14, 2005


                  prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                  >Of course, many Eckists suddenly discovered their own health problems were related to EMR as well! Funny how that special (Mahanta suggested) "Golden-Tongued Wisdom" (self-fulfilling) prophecy thing works with highly suggestible people.

                  *** I probably shouldn't get in on this topic since I won't be around for a couple weeks.  :-)  But this is just too much fun!

                     I have to share something that maybe others were thinking or even recall hearing other eckist claiming back in the early days of Klump's illness issues.... and maybe still do?  Take my Mom for example, who also became ill around the same time as this EMR illness came up.  She proudly boasted that she would willingly (as an HI, since the lowly couldn't handle it) help take on Klump's illness so he wouldn't have to carry all the burden of the universe by himself! She used to claim  Klump's illness and other's were due to the shift taking place in the consciousness of this universe, because Klump was bringing it up to a new initiation level.  And by this event, Klump and Co. would be taking on the karma of the universe.  (Her illness isn't EMR, but she claims it is related because of an inner experience with Klump;  her illness wasn't what it seemed.  So for quit a long time she refused treatment because Klump was going to heal her.... then one afternoon her doctor entered her room with the gloomy prognoses that if she didn't take the treatment she would be dead by morning.  For someone that pretended to commit suicide for attention for most of my early years, she sure was afraid of death that day!) 

                  >Yes, Klemp just has to suggest something and half the Eckists will experience it in one form or another. They're "plugged in" but Not to the Eck (Holy Spirit), but to mass hypnotic suggestion and delusion. As above so below.

                  *** Most of us were part of that delusion. Yet I, on a very rare occasion question what it was that actually *woke* me up to this.  I have to think of it as a very long deep sleep. (30 years)  One beautiful sunny morning the curtains just couldn't keep the light from waking me. 

                  Anyway, I'm off on another camping trip.  Looking forward to getting in touch with nature....  :-D  Hope everyone enjoys their summer as I am!

                  Hugs

                  Liz

                • Greg and Liz
                  ... ** LOL, sounds familiar! How many of us actually tried eating what we thought was healthy because of a certain Twitch book, or recommendations of books by
                  Message 8 of 23 , Jul 14, 2005


                    mishmisha9 <mishmisha9@...> wrote:

                    >Regarding those Harji potlucks, I always found it helpful to either eat well before going or stop someplace afterwards to get a real meal!

                    ** LOL, sounds familiar!  How many of us actually tried eating what we thought was healthy because of a certain Twitch book, or recommendations of books by the Klumpster?  I for one did, and found myself eventually having illnesses I created by trying to do the eckclone thing.... 

                    >It seemed so much of the social discussion evolved around the "right" dietary food--avoid this and avoid that sort of discussion which was so boring and certainly took away from the enjoyment of the dining!

                    **  This reminds me of the Stepford Wives movie remake....  the whole ecksocial thing.  But honestly, once I stopped trying to become healthy, I regained my health!   

                  • mishmisha9
                    We even held a Harji Potluck at our home one time! At one point during the affair, I stepped into my kitchen to find an Eckist explaining to another Eckist
                    Message 9 of 23 , Jul 14, 2005
                      We even held a Harji Potluck at our home one time! At one point
                      during the affair, I stepped into my kitchen to find an Eckist
                      explaining to another Eckist what was good to eat and what wasn't.
                      She even had pulled a container out of my refrigerator pointing to
                      the listed "unhealthy" ingredients that was in a certain food. When
                      she saw me, she pulled me into the discussion to enlighten me as
                      well! : ) Later, this Eckist told me that she got into some serious
                      problems with her heart for following some of those Eck
                      recommended "healthy" diets she had been following. She's doing okay
                      now, and we enjoy an occasional lunch together where food is no
                      longer the central topic, but rather just one aspect of our time.

                      Mish

                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Greg and Liz
                      <whitefeatherliz@y...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > mishmisha9 <mishmisha9@y...> wrote
                      > >Regarding those Harji potlucks, I always found it helpful to
                      either eat well before going or stop someplace afterwards to get a
                      real meal!
                      >
                      > ** LOL, sounds familiar! How many of us actually tried eating
                      what we thought was healthy because of a certain Twitch book, or
                      recommendations of books by the Klumpster? I for one did, and found
                      myself eventually having illnesses I created by trying to do the
                      eckclone thing....
                      >
                      > >It seemed so much of the social discussion evolved around
                      the "right" dietary food--avoid this and avoid that sort of
                      discussion which was so boring and certainly took away from the
                      enjoyment of the dining!
                      >
                      > ** This reminds me of the Stepford Wives movie remake.... the
                      whole ecksocial thing. But honestly, once I stopped trying to
                      become healthy, I regained my health!
                    • ctecvie
                      Hello Liz & Mish, ... either eat well before going or stop someplace afterwards to get a real meal! It seems that I was really lucky to have real good meals at
                      Message 10 of 23 , Jul 14, 2005
                        Hello Liz & Mish,

                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Greg and Liz
                        <whitefeatherliz@y...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > mishmisha9 <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
                        > >Regarding those Harji potlucks, I always found it helpful to
                        either eat well before going or stop someplace afterwards to get a
                        real meal!

                        It seems that I was really lucky to have real good meals at our
                        local center! :-)
                        >
                        > ** LOL, sounds familiar! How many of us actually tried eating
                        what we thought was healthy because of a certain Twitch book, or
                        recommendations of books by the Klumpster? I for one did, and found
                        myself eventually having illnesses I created by trying to do the
                        eckclone thing....

                        Oh yes - fortunately, I was not as gullible as many others in this
                        respect, but of course I tried to be a good Eckist, and still was
                        gullible enough. I remember an Eckist who was very much into healthy
                        food - she had to bring her own food wherever she went because she
                        couldn't eat the food there, she didn't support it! I always felt
                        that a spiritual path should make me healthier and stronger and not
                        the contrary. And of course there was the lady you know already who
                        said that meat-eaters were smelling foul. Can you imagine that! :-)
                        >
                        > >It seemed so much of the social discussion evolved around
                        the "right" dietary food--avoid this and avoid that sort of
                        discussion which was so boring and certainly took away from the
                        enjoyment of the dining!
                        >
                        > ** This reminds me of the Stepford Wives movie remake.... the
                        whole ecksocial thing. But honestly, once I stopped trying to
                        become healthy, I regained my health!

                        Well, once you really start being yourself, then everything gets
                        much better. The moment you try to clone yourself from the image of
                        a "master", you eventually get sick because you are not living your
                        life. Rather easy to see, now, I think :-)

                        Ingrid
                      • prometheus_973
                        Hi Liz, Have a nice camping trip and keep dry. I enjoyed your comments and have a few more of my own to share. ... wrote: ... problems
                        Message 11 of 23 , Jul 14, 2005
                          Hi Liz,
                          Have a nice camping trip and keep dry. I enjoyed your comments and
                          have a few more of my own to share.

                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Greg and Liz
                          <whitefeatherliz@y...> wrote:
                          prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:

                          >>Of course, many Eckists suddenly discovered their own health
                          problems were related to EMR as well! Funny how that special
                          (Mahanta suggested) "Golden-Tongued Wisdom" (self-fulfilling)
                          prophecy thing works with highly suggestible people.

                          >*** I probably shouldn't get in on this topic since I won't be
                          around for a couple weeks. :-) But this is just too much fun!

                          >***I have to share something that maybe others were thinking or
                          even recall hearing other eckist claiming back in the early days of
                          Klump's illness issues.... and maybe still do? Take my Mom for
                          example, who also became ill around the same time as this EMR
                          illness came up. She proudly boasted that she would willingly (as
                          an HI, since the lowly couldn't handle it) help take on Klump's
                          illness so he wouldn't have to carry all the burden of the universe
                          by himself! She used to claim Klump's illness and other's were due
                          to the shift taking place in the consciousness of this universe,
                          because Klump was bringing it up to a new initiation level. And by
                          this event, Klump and Co. would be taking on the karma of the
                          universe. (Her illness isn't EMR, but she claims it is related
                          because of an inner experience with Klump; her illness wasn't what
                          it seemed. So for quit a long time she refused treatment because
                          Klump was going to heal her.... then one afternoon her doctor
                          entered her room with the gloomy prognoses that if she didn't take
                          the treatment she would be dead by morning. For someone that
                          pretended to commit suicide for attention for most of my early
                          years, she sure was afraid of death that day!)


                          Yes, many Eckists were acting very vain in thinking they were
                          helping the L.E.M./Mahanta (Klump) with the karma that he had taken
                          on for the world. LOL! Shit still happened in the world so it didn't
                          seem to help did it! We got Dubya as Pres so consciousness even
                          dropped a couple of notches! Thanks you very much Harold! Not!

                          Remember how H.I.s would sit in the front row at seminars when Klemp
                          gave his talks. This was to place a wall of protection between him
                          and and the other initiates (and Nons). I believe Klemp even
                          mentioned this once. Since people had flown or driven to the seminar
                          they were still stressed out from the long journey and not in a
                          positive or balanced mode, and Klemp needed protection from these
                          negative or chaotic energies because he was already weakened.

                          Therefore, is it any wonder that Eckists thought they needed to help
                          out with taking on Klemp's "world" karma or that of all Eckists.
                          However, this delusion prevented these Eckists (through vanity) from
                          taking responsibility and reviewing their own actions (and karma)
                          which attributed to their own health problems. Not too long ago in a
                          Mystic World article Klemp pointed out that no one could take on
                          karma for the L.E.M./Mahanta. Of course, even having a wall of H.I.s
                          in front of him kind of makes one wonder why HK needed it if he is
                          all that he claims! I wonder if Eckists ever thought about that? I
                          didn't! But, at least I was never a vain martyr like many
                          (apparantly) in thinking that I could take on Karma for Klemp!

                          >>Yes, Klemp just has to suggest something and half the Eckists will
                          experience it in one form or another. They're "plugged in" but Not
                          to the Eck (Holy Spirit), but to mass hypnotic suggestion and
                          delusion. As above so below.


                          >***Most of us were part of that delusion. Yet I, on a very rare
                          occasion question what it was that actually *woke* me up to this. I
                          have to think of it as a very long deep sleep. (30 years) One
                          beautiful sunny morning the curtains just couldn't keep the light
                          from waking me.


                          I know!

                          I once questioned someone from the ESC about discontinuing Paul's
                          books (about twenty years ago when it first started), and was told
                          not to second guess the Mahanta! The guy was rather arrogant, but a
                          good little soldier just the same. Let's not question why this
                          historical information is being discontinued and is now totally
                          unavailable! The thing is... if Twitchell's stuff isn't on as high
                          of a level of consciousness with the current teaching... so what! At
                          least make it available to card carrying paid members of Eckankar,
                          or at least to H.I.s! Let Eckists decide what is valuable and what
                          is not, and Not let Klemp decide for you! Why is censorship
                          necessary unless there is something to hide?

                          Prometheus
                        • ctecvie
                          Hello Liz, ... even recall hearing other eckist claiming back in the early days of Klump s illness issues.... and maybe still do? Take my Mom for example, who
                          Message 12 of 23 , Jul 15, 2005
                            Hello Liz,

                            > I have to share something that maybe others were thinking or
                            even recall hearing other eckist claiming back in the early days of
                            Klump's illness issues.... and maybe still do? Take my Mom for
                            example, who also became ill around the same time as this EMR illness
                            came up.

                            <<<<<< I knew quite a few people who said they were sensible to this,
                            too! Even in my "best" times as an Eckist, I never could understand
                            how that happened. I know, of course, that some people are more
                            sensible than others, but this was too obvious for me. I kept
                            thinking that they were identifying themselves too much with Harold
                            and I didn't like that too much.

                            > She proudly boasted that she would willingly (as an HI, since the
                            lowly couldn't handle it) help take on Klump's illness so he wouldn't
                            have to carry all the burden of the universe by himself! She used to
                            claim Klump's illness and other's were due to the shift taking place
                            in the consciousness of this universe, because Klump was bringing it
                            up to a new initiation level.

                            <<<<<< Well, the burdens of a whole universe are too heavy indeed! :-
                            ) And of course to lift the whole universe to another level of
                            consciousness is even heavier! :-) He should have left this to
                            Atlas! ;-))

                            >And by this event, Klump and Co. would be taking on the karma of the
                            universe.

                            <<<<<< It's incredible we believed all that!

                            >(Her illness isn't EMR, but she claims it is related because of an
                            inner experience with Klump; her illness wasn't what it seemed. So
                            for quit a long time she refused treatment because Klump was going to
                            heal her.... then one afternoon her doctor entered her room
                            > with the gloomy prognoses that if she didn't take the treatment
                            she would be dead by morning. For someone that pretended to commit
                            suicide for attention for most of my early years, she sure was afraid
                            of death that day!)

                            <<<<<< I know a 6th initiate whose mother had many difficulties to
                            die - apparently, she was very afraid to let go. And this mother was
                            a 6th initiate as well! The daughter - grandchild of the woman who
                            died - left Eckankar after this event because she saw that the
                            teachings didn't really work. My friend, the 6th initiate, is still
                            very devoted to Eckankar and especially to the mahanta - I always saw
                            this as an unhealthy and rather abnormal behavior.
                            >
                            > *** Most of us were part of that delusion. Yet I, on a very rare
                            occasion question what it was that actually *woke* me up to this. I
                            have to think of it as a very long deep sleep. (30 years) One
                            beautiful sunny morning the curtains just couldn't keep the light
                            from waking me.

                            <<<<<< Yes, we all bought into this delusion, more or less.
                            Fortunately I was not such a long-term member and only a lowly 3rd
                            initiate! :-) I think that when it's time, we all wake up - even
                            after such a long sleep like yours! Actually, I think you are very
                            brave and intelligent to do so because that's not an easy task after
                            practically having been brought up in the religion!


                            >
                            > Anyway, I'm off on another camping trip. Looking forward to
                            getting in touch with nature.... :-D Hope everyone enjoys their
                            summer as I am!

                            <<<<<< Have fun & take care!
                            Ingrid
                          • mishmisha9
                            I always thought it was arrogant to think you could take on the karma of the universe! Plus, I never noticed any changes in the universe when someone had
                            Message 13 of 23 , Jul 15, 2005
                              I always thought it was arrogant to think you could take on the
                              karma of the universe! Plus, I never noticed any changes in the
                              universe when someone had claimed to do such a thing! I mean what
                              proved that this was being done!!!!

                              I have a friend who for a time self-diagnosed the EMR problem, right
                              after I communicated (via email)about and urged this person to read
                              Ford's book Confessions of a God Seeker. All of a sudden, this
                              person could no longer sit at the computer without becoming ill!
                              What a coincidence! : )

                              In my naivety, I asked how one was diagnosed--what procedures/tests
                              are done to prove such an illness. Well, this person became highly
                              defensive and said that he/she didn't need tests to prove it--he/she
                              knew!!!! Did I mention this was an H.I.? Talk about being highly
                              sensitive--when defending crackpot theories! I have noticed that the
                              anger/defensiveness occurs the strongest with those who have the
                              weakest belief systems or theories that they are promoting! I guess
                              this is so, because there is no real basis in fact to what they are
                              buying into! It's all speculation--their own or someone else's that
                              they want to believe! Maybe, they are fighting their own
                              subconscious that knows better and they are frustrated. The argument
                              is not really with those who are not agreeing with them, but
                              actually within their own selves. Well, that's just a guess!

                              Mish
                            • prometheus_973
                              Hi Mish, I remembered some things after reading your post, and thought I d comment. ... karma of the universe! Plus, I never noticed any changes in the
                              Message 14 of 23 , Jul 15, 2005
                                Hi Mish,
                                I remembered some things after reading your post, and thought I'd
                                comment.

                                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                                <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:

                                > I always thought it was arrogant to think you could take on the
                                karma of the universe! Plus, I never noticed any changes in the
                                universe when someone had claimed to do such a thing! I mean what
                                proved that this was being done!!!!


                                This is true for all of these "Masters" or "Whatever" they claim to
                                be, and for the "powers" they possess. Maharishi, of TM fame, would
                                gather thousands of us siddhas together to "raise the consciousness"
                                of the areas we were sent to. Washington D.C. or New York City for
                                the United Nations conferences or even the Middle East were hot spot
                                areas that needed our help. The problem with going to the Middle
                                Eastern countries was with the clothes the average TMer was expected
                                to wear. Maharishi had a dress code that made everyone look like an
                                FBI or CIA agent! Everyone was stopped at customs! How could you
                                blame the people in these other countries when hundreds of young
                                dark suited males and females were coming to their country just
                                to "meditate" and raise the consciousness of their country. But,
                                when one looks at what is happening in the world since all of
                                this "raising of consciousness" has been taking place it seems that
                                Maharishi and Klemp were just full of hot air. TM's con is to
                                create "Heaven on Earth." Klemp's claim is what... to give spiritual
                                freedom through Eck mastership? But one needs the 10th Initiation
                                for Eck "Mastership" and that doesn't happen on the physical plane
                                unless your male and are the Living Eck Master! Promises! Promises!


                                > I have a friend who for a time self-diagnosed the EMR problem,
                                right after I communicated (via email)about and urged this person to
                                read Ford's book Confessions of a God Seeker. All of a sudden, this
                                person could no longer sit at the computer without becoming ill!
                                What a coincidence! : )


                                Yes, I had a H.I. Eck friend (pre "Confessions") that told me that
                                she believed in kinesiology. I expressed doubt that it really worked
                                and was a valid method to use for one's health. But, she was very
                                insistent on its reliability. However, she then told me that she was
                                still going to use some supplements that she was Not to use because
                                of the kinesology test. She felt that using her own "intuition" was
                                better. I then said, "I guess you don't really believe in kinesology
                                then." The Eckist then got a very puzzled look on her face, and the
                                back peddling began!


                                > In my naivety, I asked how one was diagnosed--what
                                procedures/tests are done to prove such an illness. Well, this
                                person became highly defensive and said that he/she didn't need
                                tests to prove it--he/she knew!!!! Did I mention this was an H.I.?
                                Talk about being highly sensitive--when defending crackpot theories!


                                People want answers and sooner or later they will find them... even
                                if those answers are not accurate or truthful.


                                > I have noticed that the anger/defensiveness occurs the strongest
                                with those who have the weakest belief systems or theories that they
                                are promoting! I guess this is so, because there is no real basis in
                                fact to what they are buying into! It's all speculation--their own
                                or someone else's that they want to believe! Maybe, they are
                                fighting their own subconscious that knows better and they are
                                frustrated. The argument is not really with those who are not
                                agreeing with them, but actually within their own selves. Well,
                                that's just a guess!


                                I agree! Either on a Soul level or a subconscious or even on an
                                unconscious level of awareness one's Self sees through the facade
                                and distortions that are created by ego as a matter of convenience
                                or security for peace of mind. Everyones' ego are seeking that
                                comfort level to deal with their own limited reality and with
                                portions of the realities of others. Usually people tend to group
                                together in order to bolster the ego's belief in the facsimiles of
                                similar creations.


                                Prometheus
                              • Freefrom
                                I really like a lot of the ideas expressed in this post, Prometheus, but I have a problem or difficulty with the last part where you talk about the ego as if
                                Message 15 of 23 , Jul 15, 2005
                                  I really like a lot of the ideas expressed in this post, Prometheus,
                                  but I have a problem or difficulty with the last part where you talk
                                  about the ego as if it is some separate entity, aside from whatever.
                                  Would you mind explaining where you are coming from on this. Thanks.

                                  Freefrom


                                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                                  <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
                                  > Hi Mish,
                                  > I remembered some things after reading your post, and thought I'd
                                  > comment.
                                  >
                                  > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                                  > <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > I always thought it was arrogant to think you could take on the
                                  > karma of the universe! Plus, I never noticed any changes in the
                                  > universe when someone had claimed to do such a thing! I mean what
                                  > proved that this was being done!!!!
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > This is true for all of these "Masters" or "Whatever" they claim to
                                  > be, and for the "powers" they possess. Maharishi, of TM fame, would
                                  > gather thousands of us siddhas together to "raise the consciousness"
                                  > of the areas we were sent to. Washington D.C. or New York City for
                                  > the United Nations conferences or even the Middle East were hot spot
                                  > areas that needed our help. The problem with going to the Middle
                                  > Eastern countries was with the clothes the average TMer was expected
                                  > to wear. Maharishi had a dress code that made everyone look like an
                                  > FBI or CIA agent! Everyone was stopped at customs! How could you
                                  > blame the people in these other countries when hundreds of young
                                  > dark suited males and females were coming to their country just
                                  > to "meditate" and raise the consciousness of their country. But,
                                  > when one looks at what is happening in the world since all of
                                  > this "raising of consciousness" has been taking place it seems that
                                  > Maharishi and Klemp were just full of hot air. TM's con is to
                                  > create "Heaven on Earth." Klemp's claim is what... to give spiritual
                                  > freedom through Eck mastership? But one needs the 10th Initiation
                                  > for Eck "Mastership" and that doesn't happen on the physical plane
                                  > unless your male and are the Living Eck Master! Promises! Promises!
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > > I have a friend who for a time self-diagnosed the EMR problem,
                                  > right after I communicated (via email)about and urged this person to
                                  > read Ford's book Confessions of a God Seeker. All of a sudden, this
                                  > person could no longer sit at the computer without becoming ill!
                                  > What a coincidence! : )
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Yes, I had a H.I. Eck friend (pre "Confessions") that told me that
                                  > she believed in kinesiology. I expressed doubt that it really worked
                                  > and was a valid method to use for one's health. But, she was very
                                  > insistent on its reliability. However, she then told me that she was
                                  > still going to use some supplements that she was Not to use because
                                  > of the kinesology test. She felt that using her own "intuition" was
                                  > better. I then said, "I guess you don't really believe in kinesology
                                  > then." The Eckist then got a very puzzled look on her face, and the
                                  > back peddling began!
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > > In my naivety, I asked how one was diagnosed--what
                                  > procedures/tests are done to prove such an illness. Well, this
                                  > person became highly defensive and said that he/she didn't need
                                  > tests to prove it--he/she knew!!!! Did I mention this was an H.I.?
                                  > Talk about being highly sensitive--when defending crackpot theories!
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > People want answers and sooner or later they will find them... even
                                  > if those answers are not accurate or truthful.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > > I have noticed that the anger/defensiveness occurs the strongest
                                  > with those who have the weakest belief systems or theories that they
                                  > are promoting! I guess this is so, because there is no real basis in
                                  > fact to what they are buying into! It's all speculation--their own
                                  > or someone else's that they want to believe! Maybe, they are
                                  > fighting their own subconscious that knows better and they are
                                  > frustrated. The argument is not really with those who are not
                                  > agreeing with them, but actually within their own selves. Well,
                                  > that's just a guess!
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I agree! Either on a Soul level or a subconscious or even on an
                                  > unconscious level of awareness one's Self sees through the facade
                                  > and distortions that are created by ego as a matter of convenience
                                  > or security for peace of mind. Everyones' ego are seeking that
                                  > comfort level to deal with their own limited reality and with
                                  > portions of the realities of others. Usually people tend to group
                                  > together in order to bolster the ego's belief in the facsimiles of
                                  > similar creations.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Prometheus
                                • prometheus_973
                                  Hello Freefrom, Welcome to the site! I left the statements that led up to those comments in order to keep the context in place. Of course, the following is
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Jul 16, 2005
                                    Hello Freefrom,

                                    Welcome to the site! I left the statements that led up to those
                                    comments in order to keep the context in place. Of course, the
                                    following is only my opinion based on various factors, three of
                                    which are observation, experience, and a degree of Self awareness.

                                    In a sense the ego is a separate entity in that it is the portion of
                                    the mind that solidifies the permanence of the illusions we create
                                    in order to survive or cope with "reality." It has been said, more
                                    or less, that the mind is a good servant but a terrible master, and
                                    I would agree. When one operates and lives their life from the
                                    attitude and perspective of Soul then one has much more control of
                                    the ego and a degree of clarity of all life.

                                    Unfortunately, some people talk the talk but don't walk the walk,
                                    but their behaviors give them away. Ego makes one narcissitic
                                    and "self" centered and clouds the mind to the point of obsession
                                    and delusion. However, ego does have its usefulness and purpose, but
                                    to identify with it as many do just leads to self and even group
                                    misery. Ego distracts, misleads, and distorts as a protection
                                    mechanism. Therefore, the stronger the ego the weaker the
                                    individual. When the ego is weaker or controllable the individual
                                    Self becomes stronger and more Self aware.

                                    But no, the ego is not really a separate entity... it just acts as
                                    though it is. Anyway, I hope this wordy explaination has clarified
                                    my previous post for you.

                                    Prometheus


                                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Freefrom"
                                    <eckchains@y...> wrote:

                                    > I really like a lot of the ideas expressed in this post,
                                    Prometheus, but I have a problem or difficulty with the last part
                                    where you talk about the ego as if it is some separate entity, aside
                                    from whatever. Would you mind explaining where you are coming from
                                    on this. Thanks.

                                    > Freefrom





                                    Prometheus: People want answers and sooner or later they will find
                                    them... even if those answers are not accurate or truthful.

                                    Mish: I have noticed that the anger/defensiveness occurs the
                                    strongest with those who have the weakest belief systems or theories
                                    that they are promoting! I guess this is so, because there is no
                                    real basis in fact to what they are buying into! It's all
                                    speculation--their own or someone else's that they want to believe!
                                    Maybe, they are fighting their own subconscious that knows better
                                    and they are frustrated. The argument is not really with those who
                                    are not agreeing with them, but actually within their own selves.
                                    Well, that's just a guess!


                                    Prometheus: I agree! Either on a Soul level or a subconscious or
                                    even on an unconscious level of awareness one's Self sees through
                                    the facade and distortions that are created by ego as a matter of
                                    convenience or security for peace of mind. Everyone's ego is seeking
                                    that comfort level to deal with their own limited reality and with
                                    portions of the realities of others. Usually people tend to group
                                    together in order to bolster the ego's belief in the facsimiles of
                                    similar creations.
                                  • ctecvie
                                    Hello Prometheus & Mish, ... to ... would ... consciousness ... spot ... expected ... an ... I think this behavior shows a lot of disrespect to the people in
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Jul 17, 2005
                                      Hello Prometheus & Mish,

                                      > This is true for all of these "Masters" or "Whatever" they claim
                                      to
                                      > be, and for the "powers" they possess. Maharishi, of TM fame,
                                      would
                                      > gather thousands of us siddhas together to "raise the
                                      consciousness"
                                      > of the areas we were sent to. Washington D.C. or New York City for
                                      > the United Nations conferences or even the Middle East were hot
                                      spot
                                      > areas that needed our help. The problem with going to the Middle
                                      > Eastern countries was with the clothes the average TMer was
                                      expected
                                      > to wear. Maharishi had a dress code that made everyone look like
                                      an
                                      > FBI or CIA agent! Everyone was stopped at customs! How could you
                                      > blame the people in these other countries when hundreds of young
                                      > dark suited males and females were coming to their country just
                                      > to "meditate" and raise the consciousness of their country.


                                      I think this behavior shows a lot of disrespect to the people in
                                      this country. How can you raise the consciousness of somebody whom
                                      you don't respect and, besides that, is certainly not willing to
                                      have his "consciousness raised"? And, raised to what? What if their
                                      consciousness is already where it should be, but only different? I
                                      remember our guide from a tour we made in the US who, despite his
                                      young age, was a very wise guy who always told us when the time came
                                      to choose between two or three tour offers for the current
                                      day: "Remember, whatever you choose don't complain or don't think
                                      that yours is better or worse than the other tours - it's not
                                      better, it's not worse, it's just different". I will remember this
                                      guy always just for this sentence!


                                      > when one looks at what is happening in the world since all of
                                      > this "raising of consciousness" has been taking place it seems
                                      that
                                      > Maharishi and Klemp were just full of hot air. TM's con is to
                                      > create "Heaven on Earth." Klemp's claim is what... to give
                                      spiritual
                                      > freedom through Eck mastership? But one needs the 10th Initiation
                                      > for Eck "Mastership" and that doesn't happen on the physical plane
                                      > unless your male and are the Living Eck Master! Promises! Promises!

                                      Prometheus, I think you have gotten that wrong. ;-) It's not through
                                      Eck mastership because nobody will ever attain it for HK is glued to
                                      his seat, but the promise is to not have to come back to
                                      this "lower" world full of sh ... but to sit happily on a cloud on
                                      the soul plane or even higher! ;-)) (well, that's a bit simplified,
                                      I know, but what the heck, I couldn't resist this one ;-)) ).
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > > I have a friend who for a time self-diagnosed the EMR problem,
                                      > right after I communicated (via email)about and urged this person
                                      to
                                      > read Ford's book Confessions of a God Seeker. All of a sudden,
                                      this
                                      > person could no longer sit at the computer without becoming ill!
                                      > What a coincidence! : )

                                      Yes and there were many more who got the same thing, or thought
                                      so ...
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Yes, I had a H.I. Eck friend (pre "Confessions") that told me that
                                      > she believed in kinesiology. I expressed doubt that it really
                                      worked
                                      > and was a valid method to use for one's health.

                                      Well, as everything, it's a method to help yourselves - if you are
                                      interested in this kind of method. My husband was one of the first
                                      kinesiologists in the country (besides his "real" work as an IT
                                      specialist in a bank) and I have found and still find this method
                                      quite helpful. But of course, if you develop cancer or break a leg
                                      or develop other serious symptoms, you still have to go to the
                                      doctor to find out what's wrong and how it can be helped. I think
                                      that all these methods can be used in addition to traditional
                                      methods. And they can help you keep your energy level high before
                                      developing symptoms! There are so many methods and therapies out
                                      there - the most important is that you make your choice, whatever
                                      this choice is! And that you stay reasonable, too.

                                      > But, she was very
                                      > insistent on its reliability. However, she then told me that she
                                      was
                                      > still going to use some supplements that she was Not to use
                                      because
                                      > of the kinesology test. She felt that using her own "intuition"
                                      was
                                      > better. I then said, "I guess you don't really believe in
                                      kinesology
                                      > then." The Eckist then got a very puzzled look on her face, and
                                      the
                                      > back peddling began!

                                      Well, seems that she did not really make her choice ... :-)
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > > In my naivety, I asked how one was diagnosed--what
                                      > procedures/tests are done to prove such an illness. Well, this
                                      > person became highly defensive and said that he/she didn't need
                                      > tests to prove it--he/she knew!!!! Did I mention this was an
                                      H.I.?
                                      > Talk about being highly sensitive--when defending crackpot
                                      theories!

                                      Eckankar helped us a lot to become deluded ... apart from meeting
                                      really nice people in Eckankar, it was also in Eckankar that I met
                                      the most deluded people.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > People want answers and sooner or later they will find them...
                                      even
                                      > if those answers are not accurate or truthful.

                                      Yes, and I think that the thing is to find the answers and move on
                                      to the next ones, as the answers always change the more you develop -
                                      or, just the more you live! I think that a religion, and
                                      Eckankar,too, makes us believe that we have attained everything and
                                      found the truth. Even if they say that they have still to unfold,
                                      there's that feeling "I have finally arrived and everything will be
                                      ok". And this feels good, of course! And it's not easy to move on
                                      when we find out that this is not so ...


                                      >
                                      >
                                      > > I have noticed that the anger/defensiveness occurs the strongest
                                      > with those who have the weakest belief systems or theories that
                                      they
                                      > are promoting! I guess this is so, because there is no real basis
                                      in
                                      > fact to what they are buying into! It's all speculation--their own
                                      > or someone else's that they want to believe! Maybe, they are
                                      > fighting their own subconscious that knows better and they are
                                      > frustrated. The argument is not really with those who are not
                                      > agreeing with them, but actually within their own selves. Well,
                                      > that's just a guess!

                                      Yes, I agree with that. The more open people are, the more they will
                                      respect people with different beliefs. Eckists are often just
                                      parroting what they are reading, but they have not realized it with
                                      themselves. Ah, yes - even some HCS members are like that. Did you
                                      notice that Mario, in his last post, sounded exactly like HK in his
                                      wisdom notes and talks? It really struck me, and I had to kind of
                                      chuckle. ;-))

                                      > I agree! Either on a Soul level or a subconscious or even on an
                                      > unconscious level of awareness one's Self sees through the facade
                                      > and distortions that are created by ego as a matter of convenience
                                      > or security for peace of mind. Everyones' ego are seeking that
                                      > comfort level to deal with their own limited reality and with
                                      > portions of the realities of others. Usually people tend to group
                                      > together in order to bolster the ego's belief in the facsimiles
                                      of
                                      > similar creations.

                                      Yes, because it feels so good to belong! I can confirm that it feels
                                      very good to belong!
                                      Ingrid
                                    • prometheus_973
                                      Hi Ingrid, Actually, the carrot of initiation has many levels for each Eckist. ... create Heaven on Earth. Klemp s claim is what... to give spiritual freedom
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Jul 17, 2005
                                        Hi Ingrid,
                                        Actually, the carrot of initiation has many levels for each Eckist.

                                        Prometheus wrote:
                                        >>Maharishi and Klemp were just full of hot air. TM's con is to
                                        create "Heaven on Earth." Klemp's claim is what... to give spiritual
                                        freedom through Eck mastership? But one needs the 10th Initiation
                                        for Eck "Mastership" and that doesn't happen on the physical plane
                                        unless your male and are the Living Eck Master! Promises! Promises!

                                        Ingrid wrote:
                                        >Prometheus, I think you have gotten that wrong. ;-) It's not
                                        through Eck mastership because nobody will ever attain it for HK is
                                        glued to his seat, but the promise is to not have to come back to
                                        this "lower" world full of sh ... but to sit happily on a cloud on
                                        the soul plane or even higher! ;-)) (well, that's a bit simplified,
                                        I know, but what the heck, I couldn't resist this one ;-)) ).

                                        ***True, nobody except Klemp (or his male replacements) will ever
                                        attain "Eck mastership." But there are different promises for each
                                        initiation level. With the 2nd thru 4th initiations it's not having
                                        to return to earth for future incarnations. At the 5th it's also
                                        being established on the 5th "Soul" Plane, having past life karma
                                        resolved, and reaching Self or Soul Realization/Consciousness. The
                                        6th and 7th initiations offer Spiritual Realization (and "settler"
                                        positions) and a step closer to the golden carrot of God Realization
                                        (Eck Mastership) and spiritual liberation. However, the more
                                        initiations and years of delusion tends to take its toll on one's
                                        ability to see/think more clearly (without Mahanta dependence).
                                        Eckists on these initiation levels, especially the 7th and 8th, tend
                                        to see themselves on higher "inner" initiation levels too. Actually,
                                        there are many Eckists on even lower initiation levels who see
                                        themselves on "higher inner" initiation levels. Rationalizing is how
                                        the typical Eckist is able to wait those long years inbetween
                                        initiations. And, for those hitting the glass ceiling of the 7th the
                                        ability to rationalize and dream of Eck mastership is of utmost
                                        importance in order to continue the delusion. Eckists are taught to
                                        be co-dependent on the outer/inner "Master," through contradictions
                                        (i.e., self-reliance) and deception (i.e., spiritual freedom and Eck
                                        Mastership). As I pointed out before in regards to the Masters 4
                                        Discourse Lesson 2 on the Nineth Initiation... there are three
                                        stages and the third and final stage to that initiation is
                                        confirmation on the outer! Therefore, wouldn't all initiations have
                                        the same requirements? How then can Eckists think that they
                                        are "higher" than their membership cards indicate? This is the same
                                        kind of delusion that is prevalent, necessary, and required to
                                        follow all of the Eck dogma! Silly isn't it! But, if one doesn't
                                        have anything better to replace it (Eckankar) with then it does give
                                        a false sense of security. It's really too bad that true spiritual
                                        freedom from Twitchell's and Klemp's con is only achieved when one
                                        sees through the deceit, sees real truth and then has the courage to
                                        act on it!



                                        >Eckankar helped us a lot to become deluded ... apart from meeting
                                        really nice people in Eckankar, it was also in Eckankar that I met
                                        the most deluded people.



                                        ***True, I met some very nice people and some as deluded as I was! I
                                        also met a lot of social misfits that "hid out" with their higher
                                        initiations. Most Eckists will overlook "quirky behavior" if that
                                        person is an H.I.



                                        >Eckists are often just parroting what they are reading, but they
                                        have not realized it with themselves. Ah, yes - even some HCS
                                        members are like that. Did you notice that Mario, in his last post,
                                        sounded exactly like HK in his wisdom notes and talks? It really
                                        struck me, and I had to kind of chuckle. ;-))


                                        ***Yes, Mario is extremely quirky! I found it interesting that Ford
                                        allows him to post his innuendo's and veiled threats while typically
                                        Not contributing anything of spiritual value or of higher
                                        consciousness. One has to wonder if this is Ford's Archilles heel,
                                        or if something else is taking place. Why is it that B&M can do no
                                        wrong when they are so wrong! What's Ford's game in turning a blind
                                        eye to their misbehavior and the cult/con promotions?

                                        Prometheus
                                      • mishmisha9
                                        Hi, Prometheus! I like your analysis! Thanks for sharing this! : ) Mish Prometheus wrote: This time Klemp tells about Rumi and his teacher the ECK Master
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Jul 17, 2005
                                          Hi, Prometheus!

                                          I like your analysis! Thanks for sharing this! : )

                                          Mish

                                          Prometheus wrote:


                                          This time Klemp tells about Rumi and his teacher the ECK Master
                                          Shamus-i-Tabriz.

                                          To recap: In the June 2005 Mystic World Klemp talked about Milarepa
                                          (11th Century) and his beer drinking, difficult, and secret (newly
                                          created) ECK Master Marpa. By the way, were the Four Zoas (laws) of
                                          Eckankar in effect then? Beer drinking (alcohol) for ECK Masters
                                          (High Initiates) is forbidden according to the 1st Zoa (Shariyat 2,
                                          pg.283). Therefore, was Marpa really still qualified to initiate
                                          Milarepa and was Milarepa therefore qualified to be the
                                          L.E.M./Mahanta and so on and so forth for all of those afterwards?
                                          Remember, this is pre-Rebazar (excuse) too! Harold stuck his foot in
                                          his mouth it would seem. Eckists seem to turn a deaf ear and blind
                                          eye to it all while numbly and mindlessly trusting that these words
                                          don't really indicate a flaw in logic or dogma. Why was Klemp so
                                          stupid to mention this! It's because he's so arrogant and secure
                                          with his delusions! Eckists will believe anything and everything
                                          their leader tells them. Of course, we former Eckists know that
                                          Twitch was the first to make it all up as the 1st L.E.M., and Klemp
                                          continues the con. Maybe he just needs to use the excuse of "Catch-
                                          22!"

                                          It seems Klemp's whole purpose in mentioning this "history" of ECK
                                          Masters in both publications is to compete with and top "Sri"
                                          Michael Owens (thewayoftruth.com)! I found it interesting that Klemp
                                          states, "Shamus was a hard teacher." Klemp is not only attempting to
                                          re-enforce his (Klemp's) authenticity and authority, but also to
                                          justify his hard-handedness to the entire Eckankar membership.
                                          According to Klemp, Mapa was a "difficult" teacher, Shamus was
                                          a "hard" teacher; therefore, HK must be hellish! Actually, Klemp is
                                          just B.S.ing Eckists to make it seem that his unloving harshness,
                                          censorship, and control tactics are for one's own good. It's not
                                          true, of course. Klemp only has the power Eckists give him! Eckists
                                          have allowed Klemp to entrap their own Souls!

                                          Here's an interesting quote: "Shamus met him in the marketplace, and
                                          this encounter threw Rumi into a daze. It vaulted him to a greater
                                          state of consciousness. What mortal enjoyed such divine power as
                                          Shamus?" Well, since the Eckankar Lexicon states that Shamus was the
                                          L.E.M./Mahanta, then it seems Klemp is putting himself right up
                                          there too! Rumi, on the other hand, was just "a follower of ECK"
                                          (Eckankar Lexicon, pg. 102) and not even an Eck Master. This is why
                                          Klemp states that Rumi just experienced "a greater state of
                                          consciousness" instead of God-Realization. If HK had stated that
                                          Rumi had experienced God-Realization, then Rumi would have to be
                                          listed as more than just "a follower of ECK" in the Eckankar
                                          Lexicon. At least Klemp got that part of his tale correct! Still, it
                                          seems HK is also giving credence to his own 1970 "daze" to again
                                          validate his qualifications and to give his words merit. This is
                                          brain washing at its best. . . very subtle and not so forceful like
                                          Scientology. Still, there is that Twitchell connection to the
                                          Scientology cult!

                                          I found it interesting that Owens' site has a section that has Rumi
                                          talking as though he is still with us! Klemp, however, makes three
                                          distinct speculations about what happened to Shamus after he left
                                          Rumi. Klemp makes statements like: "other speculation; no one really
                                          knows; there are said; A third reason that Shamus may have left"
                                          etc. Klemp even suggests that Shamus could have been murdered by
                                          Rumi's disciples! Actually, Klemp seems to know what Shamus was
                                          thinking by describing it (at first) in terms that Judge Judy (of TV
                                          fame) might use, but then HK starts to backpedal and
                                          speculate. "Rumi, he felt needed 'to be cooked' by separation. After
                                          all, his first departure had seen in Rumi a far greater devotion to
                                          God. Yet he still leaned too heavily on Shamus; it was holding him
                                          back spiritually, so Shamus may have decided to pop Rumi back in the
                                          oven."

                                          Now this is interesting! Here Klemp states that Rumi could only
                                          become fully "cooked" spiritually if he was separated from his
                                          Master. So, since Rumi was unwilling to leave or say good-bye then
                                          Shamus did the right thing and let him go by walking away. . .
                                          maybe. Or maybe Shamus was assassinated! Two things come to mind.
                                          Why doesn't Klemp (the Mahanta) know the truth about Shamus since
                                          Shamus also possessed the Mahanta consciousness? Klemp screwed that
                                          up, didn't he! And secondly, why doesn't Klemp let his H.I.s go and
                                          allow them to become more fully "cooked" since he is, apparently,
                                          holding them "back spiritually!" "And so there we leave it."


                                          After this article is a small box that states: "The goal of an H.I.
                                          get-together is to strengthen you in your common purpose: to assist,
                                          through outer service, the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master in his
                                          mission to show Soul the way home to God." --Shree Klempster

                                          Now why doesn't Klemp just say what an H.I. "get-together" really
                                          is? It's a TRAINING, People! Klemp doesn't even capitalize "get-
                                          together" since it's to be thought of as a social gathering of
                                          sorts, but it's not! Yes, Eckists are now realizing their true goal
                                          and mission as pseudo Eck Masters in training (forever) is not God-
                                          Realization, but to recruit more paying members! Who'd a thunk!

                                          Prometheus
                                        • ctecvie
                                          Hello Prometheus, ... Oh yes, I forgot. Too complicated for my limited brain! ;-) ... Realization ... By that time, the Mahanta dependency is so great that
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Jul 19, 2005
                                            Hello Prometheus,

                                            > ***True, nobody except Klemp (or his male replacements) will ever
                                            > attain "Eck mastership." But there are different promises for each
                                            > initiation level.

                                            Oh yes, I forgot. Too complicated for my limited brain! ;-)

                                            > With the 2nd thru 4th initiations it's not having
                                            > to return to earth for future incarnations. At the 5th it's also
                                            > being established on the 5th "Soul" Plane, having past life karma
                                            > resolved, and reaching Self or Soul Realization/Consciousness. The
                                            > 6th and 7th initiations offer Spiritual Realization (and "settler"
                                            > positions) and a step closer to the golden carrot of God
                                            Realization
                                            > (Eck Mastership) and spiritual liberation. However, the more
                                            > initiations and years of delusion tends to take its toll on one's
                                            > ability to see/think more clearly (without Mahanta dependence).

                                            By that time, the Mahanta dependency is so great that you'd rather
                                            not contemplate anything critical any more. Because it's difficult to
                                            let go of all the years and years of serious work to become a co-
                                            worker with God and the mahanta. I know a 6th initiate who, after
                                            having read Ford Johnson's book and getting into serious doubts about
                                            Eckankar, eventually went back to Eckankar. He has received his 7th
                                            by now, and I hope he is happy now where he is. I let him know that I
                                            didn't understand how it was possible that after all he knew, to go
                                            back to Eckankar. Well, that was when I was still a bit naive! Today,
                                            I understand that people feel the need to go back. Now, I am better
                                            able to wish them well and to let them go.


                                            > Eckists on these initiation levels, especially the 7th and 8th,
                                            tend
                                            > to see themselves on higher "inner" initiation levels too.

                                            Yes there was a long-time eckist who, due to personal circumstances,
                                            was a 2nd initiate only. She thought herself much higher than her
                                            outer initiation. While I can understand that this happens, I
                                            couldn't really follow her in this case - she thought she had reached
                                            initiation level 20 or higher. That was definitely too high for me! :-
                                            )

                                            > Eckists are taught to
                                            > be co-dependent on the outer/inner "Master," through contradictions
                                            > (i.e., self-reliance) and deception (i.e., spiritual freedom and
                                            Eck
                                            > Mastership).

                                            Oh yes this is so. And that's what I consider as spiritual crime by
                                            Harold Klemp.

                                            > As I pointed out before in regards to the Masters 4
                                            > Discourse Lesson 2 on the Nineth Initiation... there are three
                                            > stages and the third and final stage to that initiation is
                                            > confirmation on the outer! Therefore, wouldn't all initiations have
                                            > the same requirements? How then can Eckists think that they
                                            > are "higher" than their membership cards indicate? This is the same
                                            > kind of delusion that is prevalent, necessary, and required to
                                            > follow all of the Eck dogma! Silly isn't it!

                                            Silly and tragic at the same time! But, we all are where we need to
                                            be at the moment. I think that if Eckists are well informed about the
                                            critics that exist about Eckankar, and if they still choose it to be
                                            their path, then so it be. But there are so many out there who have
                                            no idea about what Eckankar is really about. And they truly believe
                                            and this belief and the love they put into the path are abused.
                                            That's a crime!

                                            >But, if one doesn't
                                            > have anything better to replace it (Eckankar) with then it does
                                            give
                                            > a false sense of security. It's really too bad that true spiritual
                                            > freedom from Twitchell's and Klemp's con is only achieved when one
                                            > sees through the deceit, sees real truth and then has the courage
                                            to
                                            > act on it!

                                            > ***True, I met some very nice people and some as deluded as I was!

                                            Me, too! ;-)

                                            >I
                                            > also met a lot of social misfits that "hid out" with their higher
                                            > initiations. Most Eckists will overlook "quirky behavior" if that
                                            > person is an H.I.

                                            How true! I know of resas (as do you, too, I believe) who really
                                            exercise strict power in their country. They boost certain people
                                            they like in the region, while they ignore people they don't like. Of
                                            course this is very human behavior, but it needs to be acknowledged
                                            as such and not hid behind pretentions of "higher development". This
                                            is where deceit begins in my opinion.


                                            > ***Yes, Mario is extremely quirky! I found it interesting that Ford
                                            > allows him to post his innuendo's and veiled threats while
                                            typically
                                            > Not contributing anything of spiritual value or of higher
                                            > consciousness. One has to wonder if this is Ford's Archilles heel,
                                            > or if something else is taking place. Why is it that B&M can do no
                                            > wrong when they are so wrong! What's Ford's game in turning a blind
                                            > eye to their misbehavior and the cult/con promotions?

                                            Well, at the moment all is quiet. Are they rethinking the issue or
                                            just planning another strategy? :-)
                                            Ingrid
                                          • prometheus_973
                                            Hi Ingrid, ... attain Eck mastership. But there are different promises for each initiation level. ... No no, it is somewhat complicated, but not too much for
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Jul 19, 2005
                                              Hi Ingrid,


                                              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "ctecvie"
                                              <ctecvie@y...> wrote:
                                              >Hello Prometheus,

                                              >***True, nobody except Klemp (or his male replacements) will ever
                                              attain "Eck mastership." But there are different promises for each
                                              initiation level.

                                              >Oh yes, I forgot. Too complicated for my limited brain! ;-)

                                              No no, it is somewhat complicated, but not too much for you to
                                              understand. One just needs more years of indoctrination and intense
                                              brainwashing of the dogma. That's what those leadership classes are
                                              for!


                                              >***With the 2nd thru 4th initiations it's not having to return to
                                              earth for future incarnations. At the 5th it's also being
                                              established on the 5th "Soul" Plane, having past life karma
                                              resolved, and reaching Self or Soul Realization/Consciousness. The
                                              6th and 7th initiations offer Spiritual Realization (and
                                              higher "settler" positions) and a step closer to the golden carrot
                                              of God Realization Eck Mastership) and spiritual liberation.
                                              However, the more initiations and years of delusion tends to take
                                              its toll on one's ability to see/think more clearly (without Mahanta
                                              dependence).

                                              >By that time, the Mahanta dependency is so great that you'd rather
                                              not contemplate anything critical any more. Because it's difficult
                                              to let go of all the years and years of serious work to become a co-
                                              worker with God and the mahanta. I know a 6th initiate who, after
                                              having read Ford Johnson's book and getting into serious doubts
                                              about Eckankar, eventually went back to Eckankar. He has received
                                              his 7th by now, and I hope he is happy now where he is. I let him
                                              know that I didn't understand how it was possible that after all he
                                              knew, to go back to Eckankar. Well, that was when I was still a bit
                                              naive! Today, I understand that people feel the need to go back.
                                              Now, I am better able to wish them well and to let them go.

                                              True, critical thinking in regards to Eckankar has been eliminated
                                              due to total acceptance and trust. One no longer has to think. It's
                                              like being in the military and doing what you are told. Eckankar
                                              even has a hierarchy like the military does. Klemp did say that he
                                              enjoyed his time in the U.S. Air Force, and in the Luthern seminary
                                              in went to as well.

                                              If this 6th initiate let anyone know that he had read Ford's book
                                              and had doubts about Eckankar... then I'm not so sure that he has
                                              received his 7th by now. If I was his RESA I'd have put him on a
                                              five year probation!

                                              >***Eckists on these initiation levels, especially the 7th and 8th,
                                              tend to see themselves on higher "inner" initiation levels too.

                                              >Yes there was a long-time eckist who, due to personal
                                              circumstances, was a 2nd initiate only. She thought herself much
                                              higher than her outer initiation. While I can understand that this
                                              happens, I couldn't really follow her in this case - she thought she
                                              had reached initiation level 20 or higher. That was definitely too
                                              high for me! :-)

                                              Yes, there are many long time lower initiate Eckists out there that
                                              are vain and deluded. They don't keep up with their paid memberships
                                              and they don't take satsang classes and they don't volunteer and yet
                                              they think they have higher inner initiations, and even higher than
                                              what Klemp even claims to have. They really don't get it! One has to
                                              buy into the whole package and abide by all of the dogma and
                                              guidelines instead of picking and choosing what one's deluded ego
                                              wants to believe. Funny, but there are many higher initiates that
                                              are just as bad with their own egomania and self-deceptions.

                                              >***Eckists are taught to be co-dependent on the
                                              outer/inner "Master," through contradictions (i.e., self-reliance)
                                              and deception (i.e., spiritual freedom and Eck Mastership).

                                              >Oh yes this is so. And that's what I consider as spiritual crime by
                                              Harold Klemp.

                                              True, HK is a spiritual criminal!

                                              >***As I pointed out before in regards to the Masters 4 Discourse
                                              Lesson 2 on the Nineth Initiation... there are three stages and the
                                              third and final stage to that initiation is confirmation on the
                                              outer! Therefore, wouldn't all initiations have the same
                                              requirements? How then can Eckists think that they are "higher" than
                                              their membership cards indicate? This is the same kind of delusion
                                              that is prevalent, necessary, and required to follow all of the Eck
                                              dogma! Silly isn't it!

                                              >Silly and tragic at the same time! But, we all are where we need to
                                              be at the moment. I think that if Eckists are well informed about
                                              the critics that exist about Eckankar, and if they still choose it
                                              to be their path, then so it be. But there are so many out there who
                                              have no idea about what Eckankar is really about. And they truly
                                              believe and this belief and the love they put into the path are
                                              abused. That's a crime!

                                              Yes, Eckists should not be afraid to read something that is critical
                                              of Eckankar or of Klemp. They just need to read the material with an
                                              open mind and contemplate on whether it makes sense or contains some
                                              truth that should be researched further.

                                              >***But, if one doesn't have anything better to replace it
                                              (Eckankar) with then it does give a false sense of security. It's
                                              really too bad that true spiritual freedom from Twitchell's and
                                              Klemp's con is only achieved when one sees through the deceit, sees
                                              real truth and then has the courage to act on it!

                                              >***True, I met some very nice people and some as deluded as I was!

                                              >Me, too! ;-)

                                              >***I also met a lot of social misfits that "hid out" with their
                                              higher initiations. Most Eckists will overlook "quirky behavior" if
                                              that person is an H.I.

                                              >How true! I know of resas (as do you, too, I believe) who really
                                              exercise strict power in their country. They boost certain people
                                              they like in the region, while they ignore people they don't like.
                                              Of course this is very human behavior, but it needs to be
                                              acknowledged as such and not hid behind pretentions of "higher
                                              development". This is where deceit begins in my opinion.

                                              Yes, I know very strict RESAs who follow the guidelines precisely,
                                              very permissive ones who follow the guidelines loosely and delegate
                                              everything, and those who are a combination of both. All, however,
                                              seem to have their favorites for one reason or another.


                                              >***Yes, Mario is extremely quirky! I found it interesting that Ford
                                              allows him to post his innuendo's and veiled threats while typically
                                              Not contributing anything of spiritual value or of higher
                                              consciousness. One has to wonder if this is Ford's Archilles heel,
                                              or if something else is taking place. Why is it that B&M can do no
                                              wrong when they are so wrong! What's Ford's game in turning a blind
                                              eye to their misbehavior and the cult/con promotions?

                                              >Well, at the moment all is quiet. Are they rethinking the issue or
                                              just planning another strategy? :-)

                                              I would say that they are preparing a couple of very long posts on
                                              the current TS/HCS topic in order to justify their past positions
                                              and to tie it all into some kind of spiritual/educational mission.
                                              Just a guess!

                                              Prometheus
                                            • ctecvie
                                              Hello Prometheus, ... intense ... are ... Indeed! When I started the leadership training, I didn t know that my leaving was only a few weeks ahead. So I had 2
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Jul 20, 2005
                                                Hello Prometheus,


                                                > No no, it is somewhat complicated, but not too much for you to
                                                > understand. One just needs more years of indoctrination and
                                                intense
                                                > brainwashing of the dogma. That's what those leadership classes
                                                are
                                                > for!

                                                Indeed! When I started the leadership training, I didn't know that
                                                my leaving was only a few weeks ahead. So I had 2 of those trainings
                                                and the handbook of course. What I found good was that you could
                                                concentrate on something positive in your day-to-day life because
                                                the exercises were meant to be made between the trainings. But, of
                                                course then there was that recruiting aspect - selling the teachings
                                                to others. I was really glad that I didn't get far enough to be
                                                really "trained". Before I gave away the book, I read it till the
                                                end and I know I couldn't have put up with those techniques. So I am
                                                glad I found Confessions - but I think either way, I wouldn't have
                                                lasted much longer in Eckankar. In any case it would have been a
                                                book that would have brought me away - hadn't it been Confessions,
                                                it would have been the leadership handbook for sure! ;-)

                                                > True, critical thinking in regards to Eckankar has been eliminated
                                                > due to total acceptance and trust. One no longer has to think.
                                                It's
                                                > like being in the military and doing what you are told. Eckankar
                                                > even has a hierarchy like the military does. Klemp did say that he
                                                > enjoyed his time in the U.S. Air Force, and in the Luthern
                                                seminary
                                                > in went to as well.

                                                HK talks about his military career quite a bit indeed as far as I
                                                remember. And, of course, you don't ask because you get everything
                                                on the inner. By the way, I have read recently that Kirpal Singh,
                                                Paul's master whom Paul forgot to acknowledge later on, didn't think
                                                very highly about experiences or soul travel in dreams. He rated the
                                                conscious travels - in the waking state much higher because he
                                                thought dreams couldn't really be relied upon. Interesting aspect
                                                for me!

                                                >Funny, but there are many higher initiates that
                                                > are just as bad with their own egomania and self-deceptions.

                                                Well, good and long practice ... ;-)

                                                > >***But, if one doesn't have anything better to replace it
                                                > (Eckankar) with then it does give a false sense of security.

                                                There are people who wouldn't have anything left without the
                                                teachings. It would be cruel to take it from them, and if they are
                                                ready to take the step, then it's a huge difficulty for them, which
                                                I understand. Not easy at all, and a lot of courage is needed!

                                                Ingrid
                                              • ctecvie
                                                Hello Prometheus, ... I don t know how many knew of this. He had told us about Ford Johnson and thus contributed a great deal to our leaving and spiritual
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Jul 20, 2005
                                                  Hello Prometheus,

                                                  I forgot one comment in my previous post:

                                                  > If this 6th initiate let anyone know that he had read Ford's book
                                                  > and had doubts about Eckankar... then I'm not so sure that he has
                                                  > received his 7th by now. If I was his RESA I'd have put him on a
                                                  > five year probation!

                                                  I don't know how many knew of this. He had told us about Ford
                                                  Johnson and thus contributed a great deal to our leaving and
                                                  spiritual liberation. :-) He then told me personally that he would
                                                  not leave Eckankar because Ford's path was based on destruction and
                                                  that this was something PT hadn't done. I told him that if he
                                                  thought that all the lies were better, well ... And I told him that
                                                  I would not congratulate him on the 7th (because he had received it
                                                  by then) because due to the knowledge gained from reading Ford's
                                                  book, he must know that this isn't worth anything. I haven't heard
                                                  from him much since. It's a pity because he is a beautiful
                                                  individual and very smart. Well, that's life I guess! :-))

                                                  Ingrid
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