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  • tomleafeater
    ... have. ... and ... the HCS ... alas; ... theology ... were ... being the ... sprang ... way, ... they use ... New ... towing ... I became a member in the
    Message 1 of 7 , Apr 8, 2007
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      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
      "zoey_true" <zoey_true@...> wrote:
      > this is a great article, mish. i was thinking that i agree with you,
      > but would not have been able to say it in the same way you
      > variety is good. there are many ways to express experience
      > truth. you have reminded me how much i miss going over to
      the HCS
      > bulletin board. i have read some interesting stuff over there.
      > i have to limit myself to certain groups due to time, etc.
      > also, i did look at don ginn's website. that is prosperity
      > at its finest. that's all it is.
      > with the entrance of the new century (1900s), select people
      > bringing eastern thought and ideas into the usa. america,
      being the
      > materialistic people we are, plucked out certain ideas, and up
      > prosperity theology. it is booming, has been booming, in a big
      > since the sixties. it seemed to hit its height in the 1980's some
      > say, but i don't know about that. i think it is still building.
      > i found it interesting to hear my friend tell me that her local eck
      > community has jumped on that bandwagon. again, they call it
      > eckankar. but it has a decided prosperity theology flavor these
      > days. also, she says the group, and the discussions, are non-
      > distinguishable any longer from any other New Age group.
      they use
      > the eck terminology, of course, but otherwise, they are just a
      > Age group, thinking positive thoughts, eatin brown rice, and
      > the line for the gipper (ie klemp).
      > zoey..

      I became a member in the Southern California area, which really
      was the area that was the genesis of eckankar. In those early
      years, Gail Twitchell's sunusu multi level marketing began, with
      one of the first meetings, as I recall, at the Laguna Beach Eck
      Center, led in part by Gail, herself. My area representative sold
      the stuff, and Eckists like Ron Lavaneri was a sunusu bigwig,
      and heavily pushed the stuff on all of us, trying to get all the
      eckists selling the stuff. I sold the stuff for awhile.

      As I see it, there has always been an opportunistic flair in
      Eckankar. In various areas in which I lived, there was always
      some activity going on, often with some H.I.'s involved, that
      involved some MLS scheme or another. The term "poverty
      consciousness" became a term that was bandied about many
      years ago. As I recall, Klemp has used the term. This term is
      used by a lot of spiritual new age groups. In eckankar, this is
      nothing new.

      PT wrote, "Those in poverty, are those who have received without

      So, those in poverty are working out their karma, so of course,
      they deserve no compromise or compassion from the wealthy, in
      Eckankar teachings.

      Thus, the shunning of the poor in Eckankar. No mention is
      made of all those in poor countries who are exploited so that
      American corporations can continue supplying goods at very low
      prices to Americans, so that Americans can continue to enjoy
      their high standard of living. Apparently, if one takes Eckankar
      doctrine seriously, most people in the world took a great deal
      without giving, in their past lives, considering how much poverty
      there is in the world.

      But apparently it is just fine for Americans (including the average
      Eckists) to take the labor of those in other countries for a few
      cents a day, so that they can have nice nick nacks from Wall Mart
      to clutter their homes with. And how many would want to pay
      more for those items in order to GIVE to those whose products
      they're taking for less than the market value. Aren't all Americans
      taking without giving? Yet this is not at all the kind of thing one
      can state within Eckankar circles. So much for karma. Go figure...

      PT and Klemp also have stated blacks are serving out their
      karma for misdeeds in other lives. Horsepucky. PT/Klemp have
      no idea what karma any one has had in other lives. They
      obviously can't read soul records (wrote about this before, so I
      won't repeat this). This is racism. For crying out loud, would not
      the slavers have earned karma for enslaving the blacks? Yet
      PT/Klemp say nothing about that. Karma is a one way street for
      PT and Klemp. Karma is made to fit what serves and justifies
      their particular values (i.e., PT's Southern values, Klemp's
      Midwestern values, or what is known as the Protestant Work
      Ethic). So blacks deserve to be poor, they earned it. Okay, again,
      don't the Southern slave owners deserve some karma for
      enslaving blacks? Apparently not, in PT's mind, since he made
      no mention of that, despite opening up the topic with his remarks
      about blacks.

      And white poor people are suffering from their karma, as well.
      What is ignored is that there will always be people at the bottom
      who are too ignorant to stand up for themselves, and are used
      by the big corporations of the world as slightly more than slave
      labor. Wages are at the lowest in terms of real worth than they
      have been for some 40 years. Do the big corps incur karma?
      Apparently not, since PT/HK say nothing about this, other than to
      denounce welfare and social security.

      So, this idea of "poverty consciousness," despite whatever merit
      there may be to the notion, is being used to justify exploitation
      and opportunism. And it reflects the Protestant Christian
      upbringing of PT/HK. And despite the wealth, Americans are, as
      minimalist David Thoreou phrased so well, "living lives of quiet
      desperation." They are overweight, depressed, often suffering
      from what are called "diseases of civilization," have nothing
      better to do than worry about the latest "American Idol," they
      arrogantly look upon other countries as inferior, all the while
      drinking coca kola by the gallons.

      Poverty consciousness, indeed. If this sort of wealth reflects
      spirituality, PT/HK can go such eggs.

      One can be very "spiritual" despite not having amassed wealth.
      In fact, I'd say that such hardship as poverty produces some of
      the most spiritual people on the planet. It's not that being poor is
      preferable. Its that the insights gained from such experiences
      are far different than the insights gained by having more food in
      your refrigerator than you will ever need to eat.

      In most countries of the world, one is considered to be doing
      quite well if they have a little home, a low paying job, and basic
      staples such as rice on their tables.


      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
      > <mishmisha9@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Hi, Zoey!
      > >
      > > I'm enjoying your posts, and this one about eckists looking
      > > for material success after embracing a poverty mentalilty for
      > > many years is indeed interesting. Of course, with the plans
      > > for more construction of buildings at the Eck Temple, and
      > > the garish display of the very ornate decor at the new ESC,
      > > it is no wonder that eckists are looking for building some
      > > personal wealth, and jumping on the bandwagon like so
      > > many other religious groups, it seems. Ford Johnson, of
      > > course, believes that one can learn to manifest wealth;
      > > others deem it a right because God wants us to be rich and
      > > so forth. So, it is as you, point out a new era embracing
      > > the material for sure. Many are probably just tired of living
      > > poor where as the others like the wealth and glitter of
      > > eckankar in order to give it validity like some of the older
      > > religions who have their catherals and temples!
      > >
      > > One of my last posts on Ford Johnson's The Truth-Seeker
      > > BB addressed this topic. I've retrieved it to post here
      > > (btw, I posted as Journey so this is me!):
      > >
      > > Journey
      > > 9/15/2006
      > > On the Nature of Success
      > >
      > > Success can be defined as both personal and public. With
      > > personal success, one, alone, looks to the Inner to discover
      > > who he is as God Soul, while the public image is, of course,
      > > found on the Outer and is mostly defined by how one relates
      > > to the world around oneself. There is the outer image of what
      > > one does from day to day in order to get by, and for some it
      > > may seem that there is the materialistic drive that will in the
      > > end display how successful one is. Sometimes, one may
      > > too caught up in the material trappings because it involves
      > > circles of consciousness that is shared with others and
      > > of consciousness at various levels. But it is the way one
      > > make his way on the Outer, and how one hopefully learns
      > > responsibility to self and others. On the other hand, if one
      > > focuses too much on the Inner, one might be neglectful of
      > > those outer responsibilities. So there is a need for balance of
      > > both in order to achieve a successful spiritual life.
      > >
      > > Interestingly, in this week's issue of TIME Magazine, there is
      > > an article titled, "Does God Want You to Be RICH?" The
      > > is being argued between a growing number of Protestant
      > > evangelists and the more mainstream pastors. Both sides
      > > various Biblical passages to support their arguments. The
      > > evangelists who are on the side of the religious implications
      > > of affluence, argue, "Who would want to get in on something
      > > where you're miserable, poor, broke and ugly and you just
      > > to muddle through until you get to heaven? . . . I believe God
      > > wants to give us nice things." The mainstream pastors
      > > by citing different sayings by Jesus, such as, "It is easier for a
      > > camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to
      > > enter the kingdom of God."
      > >
      > > As Vickie pointed out in her post, the pursuit of the material
      > > riches is seemingly very shallow from the viewpoint of a true
      > > God Seeker. But yet, for me, the possession of wealth or the
      > > lack of it, defines neither in a spiritual sense. I believe that
      > both
      > > a rich man and a poor man can both possess the same
      > > consciousness and be equally successful spiritually. And to
      > > contrary, both can be equally spiritually deprived. As to the
      > debate
      > > among the Christians on whether God wants them to be rich,
      > > I don't think God really cares. Each Soul's journey is
      > each
      > > life is as varied as there are experiences. But Spiritual
      > is
      > > achieved when the seeker recognizes the need to achieve a
      > > outer success and balance in order to grow in spiritual
      > > and consciousness. The key to surviving spiritually is
      learning how
      > > to meet those outer obligations on a daily basis while using
      > Inner
      > > spiritual talents. For me, this is the true challenge of
      > > spiritual success.
      > >
      > > I still believe that random probability can find balance in order
      > to
      > > make everything a predictable and spiritual universe.
      > >
      > > Journey (a.k.a. Mish)
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
      > > "zoey_true" <zoey_true@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > i often visit the city where I lived during the major part of my
      > eck
      > > > career. there is a little group there that i stay in touch
      > with.
      > > > they often tell me stories about former members, and how
      they ran
      > > > into them at the grocery, and how the poor person just
      > > > awful. they had aged 20 years, etc. when i ask if the
      person is
      > > > doing so poorly because they left eckankar, they will not
      > > > that directly. they just say, "oh, i don't know what is going
      > > > with them. they sure looked bad." i think they keep up with
      > > > just to see if i will get hit by some karmic mac truck.. it
      > > > irritate them no end to see me so happy and sassy. ha.
      > > >
      > > > anyway, i have a question. after lunch i hung out with one
      > > > who is very frank and honest with me about the cult doings.
      > > > tells me that the group has really gotten into that 'prosperity
      > > > consciousness' thing. oh, they call it eckankar and
      > etc,
      > > > but it really is prosperity theology. she says the talks lately
      > > > have been how we are each meant to live in plenty, etc etc.
      > > > says one of the highers is actually doing a book discussion
      > his
      > > > home because it is not an eck book; but rather, it is one of
      > those
      > > > prosperity consciousness books. also, some of the
      highers have
      > > > gotten into some kind of multi-level marketing thing (btw,
      > > > level marketing is a variation on the pyramid scheme).
      > > >
      > > > i have to say that this was unexpected. it has been some
      > > > since i was privy to the inner workings of the group, but they
      > never
      > > > seemed particulary material. they were more about
      > > > superiority. at any rate, my friend tells me this is a growing
      > > > thing in eckankar as a whole, just as it is in christianity.
      > > > wants us all to be rich.
      > > >
      > > > anyone else hear anything about this?
      > > >
      > > > zoey...
      > > >
      > >
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