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PT: Rebazar the Real LEM & SAT NAM the Inner...

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  • Gnothe Seauton
    Hi Etznab, Sorry that it s taken so long to reply. I ve enjoyed your posts on A.R.E. Yes, this is all very interesting. I can see why Klemp doesn t want to
    Message 1 of 10 , Mar 28 3:19 AM
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      Hi Etznab,
      Sorry that it's taken so long to reply. I've
      enjoyed your posts on A.R.E. Yes, this is
      all very interesting. I can see why Klemp
      doesn't want to reprint PT's books like
      Dialogues or Difficulties. I can, also, see
      why Klemp and company don't want ECKists
      thinking or questioning too much either.
      One topic that is, also, off limits are those
      regarding 9th Initiates. I'm not even certain
      if an ECKist can ask their RESA who the 8ths
      are or how many there are! Everything is
      kept a secret so that people will be discouraged
      from asking even the most simple questions.
      I know of RESAs that will Black List ECKists
      from getting initiations for asking too many
      questions or certain off-limit questions.

      Prometheus


      --- etznab@... wrote:

      > Interesting post.




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    • etznab@aol.com
      Blacklisted for asking too many questions? Does that mean I should not ask about when Sudar Singh died? Since the Rod of Eck Power was handed to Paul Twitchell
      Message 2 of 10 , Mar 28 3:19 PM
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           Blacklisted for asking too many questions? Does that mean
        I should not ask about when Sudar Singh died? Since the Rod
        of Eck Power was handed to Paul Twitchell by Rebazar Tarzs?
        (see: Eckankar dictionary definition for Rebazar Tarzs)

           I think it's a perfectly honest question to ask for clarification
        on Sudar Singh, the Eck Master before Paul Twitchell.

           The wording doesn't seem specifically clear, but one could
        argue that Rebazar just "handed" the rod over for Sudar Singh.
        Similar, perhaps, to Sudar Singh sending Paul Twitchell to
        Rebazar Tarzs for initiation into Eckankar.

           (Never mind the alleged fact that - in some earlier writings
        by Paul Twitchell) - the words for Sudar Singh and Rebazar
        Tarzs were first spelled Kirpal Singh!)

           Though I still would love to make a "historical" record of the
        Eck teachings over time in order to learn what I can from this,
        not everbody wants to consider religion from an historical per-
        spective it seems.

        Etznab

          



        **************************************
        See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
      • mishmisha9
        Hi, Etznab! I think it is perfectly fine to ask questions, but in eckankar certain questions can alarm the powers that be. Asking too many questions very
        Message 3 of 10 , Mar 28 4:02 PM
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          Hi, Etznab!

          I think it is perfectly fine to ask questions, but in eckankar
          certain questions can alarm the powers that be. Asking too
          many questions very likely would put a chela on a blacklist.
          Of course, the chela will not be aware of this other than to
          find that he doesn't receive his initiations as timely as most
          chelas. I have been shunned and also ignored within groups
          of eckists--in social settings. Why? Well, for one, I was a lower
          initiate so some of the h.i.'s fear contamination, and for another
          I did ask some questions that were not well-received. I can't
          believe that I put up with this unloving and crazy behavior
          within the eckankar org. as long as I did. I believe one of the
          first lessons in eckankar is to develop lower self-esteem--
          that is what a hierarchy is all about. Put people down and make
          them earn worthiness as judged by the orgs controllers. It starts
          with some idiot putting himself up as top dog (i.e. HK) with tiers
          of importance going down from there. Those at the very bottom
          are the insignificant, lower consciousness beings who if tamed
          properly will gradually make their way up--if they are careful not
          to upset those who feel so much more superior to the rest of the
          population.

          It's interesting that placing one at the top is not based on anything
          other than an "I've had a dream" type experience that told the
          narcissistic personality that he is "God's elect!" But more fascinating
          is that people will believe this--without proof or validation! LOL!

          I'm really done with organized anything, especially
          religion! : )

          Mish

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
          etznab@... wrote:
          >
          > Blacklisted for asking too many questions? Does that mean
          > I should not ask about when Sudar Singh died? Since the Rod
          > of Eck Power was handed to Paul Twitchell by Rebazar Tarzs?
          > (see: Eckankar dictionary definition for Rebazar Tarzs)
          >
          > I think it's a perfectly honest question to ask for clarification
          > on Sudar Singh, the Eck Master before Paul Twitchell.
          >
          > The wording doesn't seem specifically clear, but one could
          > argue that Rebazar just "handed" the rod over for Sudar Singh.
          > Similar, perhaps, to Sudar Singh sending Paul Twitchell to
          > Rebazar Tarzs for initiation into Eckankar.
          >
          > (Never mind the alleged fact that - in some earlier writings
          > by Paul Twitchell) - the words for Sudar Singh and Rebazar
          > Tarzs were first spelled Kirpal Singh!)
          >
          > Though I still would love to make a "historical" record of the
          > Eck teachings over time in order to learn what I can from this,
          > not everbody wants to consider religion from an historical per-
          > spective it seems.
          >
          > Etznab
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > **************************************
          > See what's free at
          > http://www.aol.com
          >
        • Tyger Purr
          Are you creating a Comic Book based on imaginary historical facts . I remember certain Christian sects used to hand out similar cartoon books at the air port,
          Message 4 of 10 , Mar 28 11:06 PM
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            Are you creating a Comic Book based on imaginary historical "facts". I
            remember certain Christian sects used to hand out similar cartoon
            books at the air port, full of all kinds of Bible quotes about going
            to hell if you didn't do so and so and such and such, as if their time
            line and hand drawn graphics somehow made it all true. I fear that you
            are suffering from OCD when it comes to Eckankar "history". OCD is an
            insidious way to avoid living or facing up to some kind of emotional
            trauma. Has this ever occurred to you as a possibility? I say this,
            because Eckankar has no history before the life of Paul Twitchell and
            even his history is full of lies. But of course, you already know this
            , don't you Etz. Oh well. ; )

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
            >
            > Blacklisted for asking too many questions? Does that mean
            > I should not ask about when Sudar Singh died? Since the Rod
            > of Eck Power was handed to Paul Twitchell by Rebazar Tarzs?
            > (see: Eckankar dictionary definition for Rebazar Tarzs)
            >
            > I think it's a perfectly honest question to ask for clarification
            > on Sudar Singh, the Eck Master before Paul Twitchell.
            >
            > The wording doesn't seem specifically clear, but one could
            > argue that Rebazar just "handed" the rod over for Sudar Singh.
            > Similar, perhaps, to Sudar Singh sending Paul Twitchell to
            > Rebazar Tarzs for initiation into Eckankar.
            >
            > (Never mind the alleged fact that - in some earlier writings
            > by Paul Twitchell) - the words for Sudar Singh and Rebazar
            > Tarzs were first spelled Kirpal Singh!)
            >
            > Though I still would love to make a "historical" record of the
            > Eck teachings over time in order to learn what I can from this,
            > not everbody wants to consider religion from an historical per-
            > spective it seems.
            >
            > Etznab
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > **************************************
            > See what's free at
            > http://www.aol.com
            >
          • tomleafeater
            ... HEllo, Etznab. I ve not been reading t0o much of the posts lately, just bored for awhile, I guess. Anyway, I was wondering if you d care to post your
            Message 5 of 10 , Mar 30 2:40 PM
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              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
              >
              > Blacklisted for asking too many questions? Does that mean
              > I should not ask about when Sudar Singh died? Since the Rod
              > of Eck Power was handed to Paul Twitchell by Rebazar Tarzs?
              > (see: Eckankar dictionary definition for Rebazar Tarzs)
              >
              > I think it's a perfectly honest question to ask for clarification
              > on Sudar Singh, the Eck Master before Paul Twitchell.
              >
              > The wording doesn't seem specifically clear, but one could
              > argue that Rebazar just "handed" the rod over for Sudar Singh.
              > Similar, perhaps, to Sudar Singh sending Paul Twitchell to
              > Rebazar Tarzs for initiation into Eckankar.
              >
              > (Never mind the alleged fact that - in some earlier writings
              > by Paul Twitchell) - the words for Sudar Singh and Rebazar
              > Tarzs were first spelled Kirpal Singh!)
              >
              > Though I still would love to make a "historical" record of the
              > Eck teachings over time in order to learn what I can from this,
              > not everbody wants to consider religion from an historical per-
              > spective it seems.
              >
              > Etznab


              HEllo, Etznab. I've not been reading t0o much of the posts lately,
              just bored for awhile, I guess.

              Anyway, I was wondering if you'd care to post your timeline here, or
              is it too lengthy? Or perhaps you've already done so.

              And anyway, one quick question. How much have you found in your
              searches of the history of the masters that would pass for objective
              evidence? Historians, as I'm sure you know, consider history to be an
              objective social science. There is no history without real evidence
              to show what happened. The evidence, of course, would be in the form
              of artifacts, documents, credible first hand accounts, corroborating
              accounts by objective witnesses, photographs, etc. Such evidence
              would pass peer review by other social scientists.

              Can you tell me how much of such evidence you have gathered about the
              eck masters, such as Sudar, or Rebazar?

              Kent
            • zoey_true
              hey mish, i agree with your description of the hi s whole- heartedly. let s face it; were it not for the hierarchy in eckankar, lowers, middles, highers, the
              Message 6 of 10 , Apr 2, 2007
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                hey mish, i agree with your description of the hi's whole-
                heartedly. let's face it; were it not for the hierarchy in eckankar,
                lowers, middles, highers, the whole thing would collapse. everyone
                is in it to feed the ego. if the highers didn't get to play at being
                superior, they would quit. why in the world would they hang out with
                a bunch of equals, doing nothing other than being loving? zoey...

                ------------------------------------------------------
                >
                > Hi, Etznab!
                >
                > I think it is perfectly fine to ask questions, but in eckankar
                > certain questions can alarm the powers that be. Asking too
                > many questions very likely would put a chela on a blacklist.
                > Of course, the chela will not be aware of this other than to
                > find that he doesn't receive his initiations as timely as most
                > chelas. I have been shunned and also ignored within groups
                > of eckists--in social settings. Why? Well, for one, I was a lower
                > initiate so some of the h.i.'s fear contamination, and for another
                > I did ask some questions that were not well-received. I can't
                > believe that I put up with this unloving and crazy behavior
                > within the eckankar org. as long as I did. I believe one of the
                > first lessons in eckankar is to develop lower self-esteem--
                > that is what a hierarchy is all about. Put people down and make
                > them earn worthiness as judged by the orgs controllers. It starts
                > with some idiot putting himself up as top dog (i.e. HK) with tiers
                > of importance going down from there. Those at the very bottom
                > are the insignificant, lower consciousness beings who if tamed
                > properly will gradually make their way up--if they are careful not
                > to upset those who feel so much more superior to the rest of the
                > population.
                >
                > It's interesting that placing one at the top is not based on
                anything
                > other than an "I've had a dream" type experience that told the
                > narcissistic personality that he is "God's elect!" But more
                fascinating
                > is that people will believe this--without proof or validation! LOL!
                >
                > I'm really done with organized anything, especially
                > religion! : )
                >
                > Mish
                >
                > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                > etznab@ wrote:
                > >
                > > Blacklisted for asking too many questions? Does that mean
                > > I should not ask about when Sudar Singh died? Since the Rod
                > > of Eck Power was handed to Paul Twitchell by Rebazar Tarzs?
                > > (see: Eckankar dictionary definition for Rebazar Tarzs)
                > >
                > > I think it's a perfectly honest question to ask for
                clarification
                > > on Sudar Singh, the Eck Master before Paul Twitchell.
                > >
                > > The wording doesn't seem specifically clear, but one could
                > > argue that Rebazar just "handed" the rod over for Sudar Singh.
                > > Similar, perhaps, to Sudar Singh sending Paul Twitchell to
                > > Rebazar Tarzs for initiation into Eckankar.
                > >
                > > (Never mind the alleged fact that - in some earlier writings
                > > by Paul Twitchell) - the words for Sudar Singh and Rebazar
                > > Tarzs were first spelled Kirpal Singh!)
                > >
                > > Though I still would love to make a "historical" record of the
                > > Eck teachings over time in order to learn what I can from this,
                > > not everbody wants to consider religion from an historical per-
                > > spective it seems.
                > >
                > > Etznab
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > **************************************
                > > See what's free at
                > > http://www.aol.com
                > >
                >
              • tomleafeater
                ... eckankar, ... being ... with ... Exactly! I was just thinking this the other day, as well. Eckankar s whole gig is the ego fix people get out ot it. My
                Message 7 of 10 , Apr 3, 2007
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                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "zoey_true"
                  <zoey_true@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > hey mish, i agree with your description of the hi's whole-
                  > heartedly. let's face it; were it not for the hierarchy in
                  eckankar,
                  > lowers, middles, highers, the whole thing would collapse. everyone
                  > is in it to feed the ego. if the highers didn't get to play at
                  being
                  > superior, they would quit. why in the world would they hang out
                  with
                  > a bunch of equals, doing nothing other than being loving? zoey...
                  >


                  Exactly! I was just thinking this the other day, as well. Eckankar's
                  whole gig is the ego fix people get out ot it. My god, look at
                  Marman's and Rich's dripping condescension that is only barely
                  disguised over at A.R.E. These eckists are addicted to their status
                  as the lords over the rest of humanity. They can't break away from it
                  long enough to see the grip it has over them. It is so, so strange.

                  Kent


                  > ------------------------------------------------------
                  > >
                  > > Hi, Etznab!
                  > >
                  > > I think it is perfectly fine to ask questions, but in eckankar
                  > > certain questions can alarm the powers that be. Asking too
                  > > many questions very likely would put a chela on a blacklist.
                  > > Of course, the chela will not be aware of this other than to
                  > > find that he doesn't receive his initiations as timely as most
                  > > chelas. I have been shunned and also ignored within groups
                  > > of eckists--in social settings. Why? Well, for one, I was a lower
                  > > initiate so some of the h.i.'s fear contamination, and for another
                  > > I did ask some questions that were not well-received. I can't
                  > > believe that I put up with this unloving and crazy behavior
                  > > within the eckankar org. as long as I did. I believe one of the
                  > > first lessons in eckankar is to develop lower self-esteem--
                  > > that is what a hierarchy is all about. Put people down and make
                  > > them earn worthiness as judged by the orgs controllers. It starts
                  > > with some idiot putting himself up as top dog (i.e. HK) with
                  tiers
                  > > of importance going down from there. Those at the very bottom
                  > > are the insignificant, lower consciousness beings who if tamed
                  > > properly will gradually make their way up--if they are careful
                  not
                  > > to upset those who feel so much more superior to the rest of the
                  > > population.
                  > >
                  > > It's interesting that placing one at the top is not based on
                  > anything
                  > > other than an "I've had a dream" type experience that told the
                  > > narcissistic personality that he is "God's elect!" But more
                  > fascinating
                  > > is that people will believe this--without proof or validation!
                  LOL!
                  > >
                  > > I'm really done with organized anything, especially
                  > > religion! : )
                  > >
                  > > Mish
                  > >
                  > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                  > > etznab@ wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Blacklisted for asking too many questions? Does that mean
                  > > > I should not ask about when Sudar Singh died? Since the Rod
                  > > > of Eck Power was handed to Paul Twitchell by Rebazar Tarzs?
                  > > > (see: Eckankar dictionary definition for Rebazar Tarzs)
                  > > >
                  > > > I think it's a perfectly honest question to ask for
                  > clarification
                  > > > on Sudar Singh, the Eck Master before Paul Twitchell.
                  > > >
                  > > > The wording doesn't seem specifically clear, but one could
                  > > > argue that Rebazar just "handed" the rod over for Sudar Singh.
                  > > > Similar, perhaps, to Sudar Singh sending Paul Twitchell to
                  > > > Rebazar Tarzs for initiation into Eckankar.
                  > > >
                  > > > (Never mind the alleged fact that - in some earlier writings
                  > > > by Paul Twitchell) - the words for Sudar Singh and Rebazar
                  > > > Tarzs were first spelled Kirpal Singh!)
                  > > >
                  > > > Though I still would love to make a "historical" record of
                  the
                  > > > Eck teachings over time in order to learn what I can from this,
                  > > > not everbody wants to consider religion from an historical per-
                  > > > spective it seems.
                  > > >
                  > > > Etznab
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > **************************************
                  > > > See what's free at
                  > > > http://www.aol.com
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • Zoey Salinger
                  eckists absolutely believe themselves to be the most superior people on the planet. the chosen few. non-eckists are worthy of pity and compassion.
                  Message 8 of 10 , Apr 4, 2007
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                    eckists absolutely believe themselves to be the most superior people on the planet.  the chosen few.  non-eckists are worthy of pity and compassion.  eck-deserters are simply fools.  oh, i thought it myself.  when i was in it.  i know exactly how they think.  they put on that benign 'allowing' mask, stating that people are free to choose, while all the time clucking their tongues over the stupidity of humanity. 
                     
                    here is a very sad phenomenon:  i have seen very sincere people walk into eckankar.  some sense of searching, or longing, or genuine curiosity, brought them through the door.  whatever it was, it was real.  but quicker than a duck jumps a june bug, they have replaced that genuine search with INITIATION.  behaving, believing, saying, joining, working, conforming, etc etc in order to get that next higher number.  and the precious spiritual longing is diverted and subverted into an obscene ego corruption.  and this is only possible because the members simply do not understand what spiritual process is, or what the experience of consciousness growth feels like.  how it changes you.  if they had once experienced it, they would surely know the uselessness of some butt hole telling you that you just got a bigger number. 
                     
                    zoey...

                    tomleafeater <tianyue@...> wrote:
                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "zoey_true"
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > hey mish, i agree with your description of the hi's whole-
                    > heartedly. let's face it; were it not for the hierarchy in
                    eckankar,
                    > lowers, middles, highers, the whole thing would collapse. everyone
                    > is in it to feed the ego. if the highers didn't get to play at
                    being
                    > superior, they would quit. why in the world would they hang out
                    with
                    > a bunch of equals, doing nothing other than being loving? zoey...
                    >


                    Exactly! I was just thinking this the other day, as well. Eckankar's
                    whole gig is the ego fix people get out ot it. My god, look at
                    Marman's and Rich's dripping condescension that is only barely
                    disguised over at A.R.E. These eckists are addicted to their status
                    as the lords over the rest of humanity. They can't break away from it
                    long enough to see the grip it has over them. It is so, so strange.

                    Kent


                    > ------------------------------------------------------
                    > >
                    > > Hi, Etznab!
                    > >
                    > > I think it is perfectly fine to ask questions, but in eckankar
                    > > certain questions can alarm the powers that be. Asking too
                    > > many questions very likely would put a chela on a blacklist.
                    > > Of course, the chela will not be aware of this other than to
                    > > find that he doesn't receive his initiations as timely as most
                    > > chelas. I have been shunned and also ignored within groups
                    > > of eckists--in social settings. Why? Well, for one, I was a lower
                    > > initiate so some of the h.i.'s fear contamination, and for another
                    > > I did ask some questions that were not well-received. I can't
                    > > believe that I put up with this unloving and crazy behavior
                    > > within the eckankar org. as long as I did. I believe one of the
                    > > first lessons in eckankar is to develop lower self-esteem--
                    > > that is what a hierarchy is all about. Put people down and make
                    > > them earn worthiness as judged by the orgs controllers. It starts
                    > > with some idiot putting himself up as top dog (i.e. HK) with
                    tiers
                    > > of importance going down from there. Those at the very bottom
                    > > are the insignificant, lower consciousness beings who if tamed
                    > > properly will gradually make their way up--if they are careful
                    not
                    > > to upset those who feel so much more superior to the rest of the
                    > > population.
                    > >
                    > > It's interesting that placing one at the top is not based on
                    > anything
                    > > other than an "I've had a dream" type experience that told the
                    > > narcissistic personality that he is "God's elect!" But more
                    > fascinating
                    > > is that people will believe this--without proof or validation!
                    LOL!
                    > >
                    > > I'm really done with organized anything, especially
                    > > religion! : )
                    > >
                    > > Mish
                    > >
                    > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                    > > etznab@ wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Blacklisted for asking too many questions? Does that mean
                    > > > I should not ask about when Sudar Singh died? Since the Rod
                    > > > of Eck Power was handed to Paul Twitchell by Rebazar Tarzs?
                    > > > (see: Eckankar dictionary definition for Rebazar Tarzs)
                    > > >
                    > > > I think it's a perfectly honest question to ask for
                    > clarification
                    > > > on Sudar Singh, the Eck Master before Paul Twitchell.
                    > > >
                    > > > The wording doesn't seem specifically clear, but one could
                    > > > argue that Rebazar just "handed" the rod over for Sudar Singh.
                    > > > Similar, perhaps, to Sudar Singh sending Paul Twitchell to
                    > > > Rebazar Tarzs for initiation into Eckankar.
                    > > >
                    > > > (Never mind the alleged fact that - in some earlier writings
                    > > > by Paul Twitchell) - the words for Sudar Singh and Rebazar
                    > > > Tarzs were first spelled Kirpal Singh!)
                    > > >
                    > > > Though I still would love to make a "historical" record of
                    the
                    > > > Eck teachings over time in order to learn what I can from this,
                    > > > not everbody wants to consider religion from an historical per-
                    > > > spective it seems.
                    > > >
                    > > > Etznab
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > **************************************
                    > > > See what's free at
                    > > > http://www.aol.com.
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >





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                  • mishmisha9
                    Hi, Zoey, Kent, Etznab and All! Kent and Zoey, excellent posts. Zoey, you especially hit the nail on the head about the corruption of ego in eckankar--that is
                    Message 9 of 10 , Apr 4, 2007
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                      Hi, Zoey, Kent, Etznab and All!

                      Kent and Zoey, excellent posts. Zoey, you especially hit the nail
                      on the head about the corruption of ego in eckankar--that is
                      where the path takes you!

                      Etznab, you wrote:

                      " Apparently, Paul Twitchell was dialoging with more than Rebazar
                      Tarzs -(his name first mentioned in 1964?) in the later 1950s."

                      I have to disagree with your use of the word "apparently" as this
                      seems like an attempt to give validity to Paul Twitchell's lies. PT
                      was not dialoging with Rebazar Tarzs or other fake masters unless
                      you want to stipulate that "apparently" PT had imaginary friends. : )

                      I agree that words must be looked at in the context of how they are
                      used. Liars use them to manipulate people, so it is apparent that
                      one should not value what liars say--it's a thing about trusting the
                      messenger . . . or not! One can call this discernment as well!

                      Mish

                      *****************************************************************
                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Zoey
                      Salinger <zoey_true@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > eckists absolutely believe themselves to be the most superior
                      people on the planet. the chosen few. non-eckists are worthy of
                      pity and compassion. eck-deserters are simply fools. oh, i thought
                      it myself. when i was in it. i know exactly how they think. they put
                      on that benign 'allowing' mask, stating that people are free to choose,
                      while all the time clucking their tongues over the stupidity of humanity.
                      >
                      > here is a very sad phenomenon: i have seen very sincere people
                      walk into eckankar. some sense of searching, or longing, or genuine
                      curiosity, brought them through the door. whatever it was, it was real.
                      but quicker than a duck jumps a june bug, they have replaced that
                      genuine search with INITIATION. behaving, believing, saying, joining,
                      working, conforming, etc etc in order to get that next higher number.
                      and the precious spiritual longing is diverted and subverted into an
                      obscene ego corruption. and this is only possible because the members
                      simply do not understand what spiritual process is, or what the
                      experience of consciousness growth feels like. how it changes you.
                      if they had once experienced it, they would surely know the uselessness
                      of some butt hole telling you that you just got a bigger number.
                      >
                      > zoey...
                      >
                      > tomleafeater <tianyue@...> wrote:
                      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "zoey_true"
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > hey mish, i agree with your description of the hi's whole-
                      > > heartedly. let's face it; were it not for the hierarchy in
                      > eckankar,
                      > > lowers, middles, highers, the whole thing would collapse. everyone
                      > > is in it to feed the ego. if the highers didn't get to play at
                      > being
                      > > superior, they would quit. why in the world would they hang out
                      > with
                      > > a bunch of equals, doing nothing other than being loving? zoey...
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > Exactly! I was just thinking this the other day, as well. Eckankar's
                      > whole gig is the ego fix people get out ot it. My god, look at
                      > Marman's and Rich's dripping condescension that is only barely
                      > disguised over at A.R.E. These eckists are addicted to their status
                      > as the lords over the rest of humanity. They can't break away from it
                      > long enough to see the grip it has over them. It is so, so strange.
                      >
                      > Kent
                      >
                      >
                      > > ------------------------------------------------------
                      > > >
                      > > > Hi, Etznab!
                      > > >
                      > > > I think it is perfectly fine to ask questions, but in eckankar
                      > > > certain questions can alarm the powers that be. Asking too
                      > > > many questions very likely would put a chela on a blacklist.
                      > > > Of course, the chela will not be aware of this other than to
                      > > > find that he doesn't receive his initiations as timely as most
                      > > > chelas. I have been shunned and also ignored within groups
                      > > > of eckists--in social settings. Why? Well, for one, I was a lower
                      > > > initiate so some of the h.i.'s fear contamination, and for another
                      > > > I did ask some questions that were not well-received. I can't
                      > > > believe that I put up with this unloving and crazy behavior
                      > > > within the eckankar org. as long as I did. I believe one of the
                      > > > first lessons in eckankar is to develop lower self-esteem--
                      > > > that is what a hierarchy is all about. Put people down and make
                      > > > them earn worthiness as judged by the orgs controllers. It starts
                      > > > with some idiot putting himself up as top dog (i.e. HK) with
                      > tiers
                      > > > of importance going down from there. Those at the very bottom
                      > > > are the insignificant, lower consciousness beings who if tamed
                      > > > properly will gradually make their way up--if they are careful
                      > not
                      > > > to upset those who feel so much more superior to the rest of the
                      > > > population.
                      > > >
                      > > > It's interesting that placing one at the top is not based on
                      > > anything
                      > > > other than an "I've had a dream" type experience that told the
                      > > > narcissistic personality that he is "God's elect!" But more
                      > > fascinating
                      > > > is that people will believe this--without proof or validation!
                      > LOL!
                      > > >
                      > > > I'm really done with organized anything, especially
                      > > > religion! : )
                      > > >
                      > > > Mish
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                      > > > etznab@ wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Blacklisted for asking too many questions? Does that mean
                      > > > > I should not ask about when Sudar Singh died? Since the Rod
                      > > > > of Eck Power was handed to Paul Twitchell by Rebazar Tarzs?
                      > > > > (see: Eckankar dictionary definition for Rebazar Tarzs)
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I think it's a perfectly honest question to ask for
                      > > clarification
                      > > > > on Sudar Singh, the Eck Master before Paul Twitchell.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > The wording doesn't seem specifically clear, but one could
                      > > > > argue that Rebazar just "handed" the rod over for Sudar Singh.
                      > > > > Similar, perhaps, to Sudar Singh sending Paul Twitchell to
                      > > > > Rebazar Tarzs for initiation into Eckankar.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > (Never mind the alleged fact that - in some earlier writings
                      > > > > by Paul Twitchell) - the words for Sudar Singh and Rebazar
                      > > > > Tarzs were first spelled Kirpal Singh!)
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Though I still would love to make a "historical" record of
                      > the
                      > > > > Eck teachings over time in order to learn what I can from this,
                      > > > > not everbody wants to consider religion from an historical per-
                      > > > > spective it seems.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Etznab
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > **************************************
                      > > > > See what's free at
                      > > > > http://www.aol.com
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
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