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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Rebezar Tarz is not found outside of Eck...

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  • etznab@aol.com
    In a message dated 3/21/07 9:25:21 AM Central Standard Time, prometheus_973@yahoo.com writes: ... I wonder if there is anything in writing about
    Message 1 of 20 , Mar 21 4:59 PM
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      In a message dated 3/21/07 9:25:21 AM Central Standard Time, prometheus_973@... writes:

      <snip>
      However, SUDAR SINGH
      (a.k.a. Kirpal Singh) was suppose to have been the 970th LEM and
      was the one who PT claims to have initially instructed him and then
      passed him (PT) over to RT (after one year) for initiation into ECK.

      <snip>

         I wonder if there is anything in writing about the number 970 and the
      "next master" being either Sudar Singh or Kirpal Singh - according to
      any known path of masters.

         Did the "path" that Kirpal Singh followed have a documented history
      of nine-hundred-and-something masters?

         I'm not giving any opinion on facts either way, but the number 970
      is what I am curious about, and if there is another path that claimed
      or claims to have a line of masters that long (besides Eckankar or
      Eckankar "off-shoot" paths).

         My hunch for now is that I simply don't know. Does anybody else?
      In other words, is there more information on this?

      Etznab

        



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    • prometheus_973
      Hi Etznab, It is interesting that Klemp isn t clear on this 970th LEM detail. That s probably because PT made it all up and forgot what he had previously
      Message 2 of 20 , Mar 21 9:35 PM
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        Hi Etznab,
        It is interesting that Klemp isn't clear on this
        970th LEM detail. That's probably because PT
        made it all up and forgot what he had previously
        written. However, if ECKists just connect the dots
        they can see the inconsistencies.

        [R.T.]: "Remember the glance I gave you in the home
        of Sudar Singh, in Allahabad that evening before the
        contemplation started?" [Dialogues With the Master,
        pg.77]

        "Sudar Singh. The Living ECK Master who lived in
        Allahabad, India, and taught Peddar Zaskq, also
        known as Paul Twitchell." [ECKANKAR Lexicon, pg.201]

        "Rebazar Tarzs. The torchbearer of ECKANKAR in the
        lower worlds; the spiritual teacher of many ECK Masters
        including Peddar Zaskq, or Paul Twitchell, to whom he
        handed the Rod of ECK Power in 1965..." [ECKANKAR
        Lexicon, pg. 173]

        "Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951 in the foothills
        of the Himalayas near Darjeeling. Before that on his
        first trip to India in 1935, [at age 27] he met Sudar
        Singh. We are still looking for information on Sudar
        Singh. We have gotten a lot of reports about an individual
        named Sundar Singh, who is not the same person at all."
        [HK: Looking at the Past for Spiritual Lessons]
        http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html

        {Recall that HK states that at age 27 (1935) Paul hadn't done
        much in his life and hadn't traveled too far from home while
        'exaggerating' and 'twisting facts' to get into Who's Who in
        Kentucky.}

        "Paul sent the manuscript of The Tiger's Fang to Kirpal
        Singh in India, which triggered a series of letters back and
        forth. It caused a very disagreeable situation when Paul
        wanted the manuscript back later. Paul had admired Kirpal
        Singh for a long time but then they had this little falling out.
        Perhaps they worked it out later." [HK: Struggle for Mastership]
        http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html

        "Secondly, when Kirpal Singh found out about Paul doing
        Soul Travel workshops, he wrote a letter to the Parapsychology
        Foundation and informed them that Paul's works were a lot
        like his own. But Kirpal Singh never mentioned that he, too,
        had picked them up from someone before him."

        ME: Well, so much for the lineage of ECK Masters to keep
        the ECK Teachings pure! LOL!

        "In a way, he was trying to possess truth. But truth builds
        upon itself. Kirpal Singh had gathered it from other groups
        ... Paul had the ability to work as the Inner Master. Kirpal
        Singh also did to his chelas, and there are many other teachers
        who can do the same thing." [HK: Beginnings of ECKANKAR]
        http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html

        It's interesting that Sudar Singh is not listed with the other
        ECK Masters in the Shariyat 1&2, pg.491, although, there
        are some strange ones mentioned. Why can't Klemp "know"
        of a former LEM/Mahanta from 1965 when he seems to be
        so informed about those from hundreds and thousands of
        years ago? Maybe because it's all a scam? I know so!

        Here's something a little strange from page 418 of the
        Shariyat Books 1&2:

        "Only the Godman, the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master
        has attained this position called the Baba, or Babpu, of
        his people. But even he does not go by this title because
        he realizes that all men are equal and should not look
        upon one another as superior, and because he is the
        ECK in the human form and, therefore, subject to the laws
        of the world."

        Baba or Babpu? What's that about! Another funny
        thing is that this other statement is true for all Souls
        because we are, also, the ECK or SPIRIT in human
        form! No revelation or anything new here!

        Okay, one more quote from page 151 of the Shariyat
        Books 1&2:

        "It has been stated that the Living ECK Master can release
        Souls from the lower Astral Planes. This is also true of
        those who have reached the Ninth Plane of God under
        the Living ECK Master. These initiates of the Ninth Circle
        are privileged to name the Souls they want released, making
        it possible to unchain a dependent relative or anyone with
        whom they have close love ties."

        So how many Ninths has Klemp confirmed on the outer?
        I guess there's still HOPE isn't there! <smile>

        Prometheus




        etznab wrote:
        >
        prometheus writes:
        >
        > <snip>
        > > However, SUDAR SINGH
        > > (a.k.a. Kirpal Singh) was suppose to have been the 970th LEM and
        > > was the one who PT claims to have initially instructed him and then
        > > passed him (PT) over to RT (after one year) for initiation into ECK.
        > <snip>
        >
        > I wonder if there is anything in writing about the number 970 and the
        > "next master" being either Sudar Singh or Kirpal Singh - according to
        > any known path of masters.
        >
        > Did the "path" that Kirpal Singh followed have a documented history
        > of nine-hundred-and-something masters?
        >
        > I'm not giving any opinion on facts either way, but the number 970
        > is what I am curious about, and if there is another path that claimed
        > or claims to have a line of masters that long (besides Eckankar or
        > Eckankar "off-shoot" paths).
        >
        > My hunch for now is that I simply don't know. Does anybody else?
        > In other words, is there more information on this?
        >
        > Etznab
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > **************************************
        > AOL now offers free email to everyone.
        > Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com
        >
      • prometheus_973
        Hello All, Here s more info that I found on Sudar Singh and Rebazar from The Wisdom Notes, Sept. 1, 1969. PT: I learned this when given the initiation to the
        Message 3 of 20 , Mar 22 7:56 AM
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          Hello All,
          Here's more info that I found on Sudar Singh and
          Rebazar from The Wisdom Notes, Sept. 1, 1969.

          PT: "I learned this when given the initiation to the
          ECK by Rebazar Tarzs many years ago. After studying
          under Sudar Singh for a year, I wandered about for
          some time studying under different teachers but
          found no one worthy of the works of Eck and returned
          to Sudar Singh much more practical than before. It
          was he who sent me to Rebazar Tarzs for the initiation
          into ECKANKAR."

          Since Sudar Singh is listed in the ECKANKAR Lexicon
          as a LEM why then didn't he initiate and instruct Twit?
          Probably because Sudar Singh was really Kirpal Singh
          (a.k.a. Rebazar Tarzs) of Ruhani Satsang whom PT had
          studied under from 1955-1965 and who PT wrote of
          as his Master in The Tiger's Fang (Paul later changed his
          name). Even Doug Marman confirms that Kirpal didn't
          return The Tiger's Fang manuscript to PT until 1966!
          And, Kirpal, also, didn't like Twitchell taking
          "artistic license" (exaggerating and twisting facts) in
          the book and involving him when he (Kirpal) had no
          knowledge of those events or inner meetings Paul was
          describing!

          Prometheus


          prometheus wrote:
          >
          > Hi Etznab,
          > It is interesting that Klemp isn't clear on this
          > 970th LEM detail. That's probably because PT
          > made it all up and forgot what he had previously
          > written. However, if ECKists just connect the dots
          > they can see the inconsistencies.
          >
          > [R.T.]: "Remember the glance I gave you in the home
          > of Sudar Singh, in Allahabad that evening before the
          > contemplation started?" [Dialogues With the Master,
          > pg.77]
          >
          > "Sudar Singh. The Living ECK Master who lived in
          > Allahabad, India, and taught Peddar Zaskq, also
          > known as Paul Twitchell." [ECKANKAR Lexicon, pg.201]
          >
          > "Rebazar Tarzs. The torchbearer of ECKANKAR in the
          > lower worlds; the spiritual teacher of many ECK Masters
          > including Peddar Zaskq, or Paul Twitchell, to whom he
          > handed the Rod of ECK Power in 1965..." [ECKANKAR
          > Lexicon, pg. 173]
          >
          > "Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951 in the foothills
          > of the Himalayas near Darjeeling. Before that on his
          > first trip to India in 1935, [at age 27] he met Sudar
          > Singh. We are still looking for information on Sudar
          > Singh. We have gotten a lot of reports about an individual
          > named Sundar Singh, who is not the same person at all."
          > [HK: Looking at the Past for Spiritual Lessons]
          > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html
          >
          > {Recall that HK states that at age 27 (1935) Paul hadn't done
          > much in his life and hadn't traveled too far from home while
          > 'exaggerating' and 'twisting facts' to get into Who's Who in
          > Kentucky.}
          >
          > "Paul sent the manuscript of The Tiger's Fang to Kirpal
          > Singh in India, which triggered a series of letters back and
          > forth. It caused a very disagreeable situation when Paul
          > wanted the manuscript back later. Paul had admired Kirpal
          > Singh for a long time but then they had this little falling out.
          > Perhaps they worked it out later." [HK: Struggle for Mastership]
          > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html
          >
          > "Secondly, when Kirpal Singh found out about Paul doing
          > Soul Travel workshops, he wrote a letter to the Parapsychology
          > Foundation and informed them that Paul's works were a lot
          > like his own. But Kirpal Singh never mentioned that he, too,
          > had picked them up from someone before him."
          >
          > ME: Well, so much for the lineage of ECK Masters to keep
          > the ECK Teachings pure! LOL!
          >
          > "In a way, he was trying to possess truth. But truth builds
          > upon itself. Kirpal Singh had gathered it from other groups
          > ... Paul had the ability to work as the Inner Master. Kirpal
          > Singh also did to his chelas, and there are many other teachers
          > who can do the same thing." [HK: Beginnings of ECKANKAR]
          > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html
          >
          > It's interesting that Sudar Singh is not listed with the other
          > ECK Masters in the Shariyat 1&2, pg.491, although, there
          > are some strange ones mentioned. Why can't Klemp "know"
          > of a former LEM/Mahanta from 1965 when he seems to be
          > so informed about those from hundreds and thousands of
          > years ago? Maybe because it's all a scam? I know so!
          >
          > Here's something a little strange from page 418 of the
          > Shariyat Books 1&2:
          >
          > "Only the Godman, the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master
          > has attained this position called the Baba, or Babpu, of
          > his people. But even he does not go by this title because
          > he realizes that all men are equal and should not look
          > upon one another as superior, and because he is the
          > ECK in the human form and, therefore, subject to the laws
          > of the world."
          >
          > Baba or Babpu? What's that about! Another funny
          > thing is that this other statement is true for all Souls
          > because we are, also, the ECK or SPIRIT in human
          > form! No revelation or anything new here!
          >
          > Okay, one more quote from page 151 of the Shariyat
          > Books 1&2:
          >
          > "It has been stated that the Living ECK Master can release
          > Souls from the lower Astral Planes. This is also true of
          > those who have reached the Ninth Plane of God under
          > the Living ECK Master. These initiates of the Ninth Circle
          > are privileged to name the Souls they want released, making
          > it possible to unchain a dependent relative or anyone with
          > whom they have close love ties."
          >
          > So how many Ninths has Klemp confirmed on the outer?
          > I guess there's still HOPE isn't there! <smile>
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > etznab wrote:
          > >
          > prometheus writes:
          > >
          > > <snip>
          > > > However, SUDAR SINGH
          > > > (a.k.a. Kirpal Singh) was suppose to have been the 970th LEM and
          > > > was the one who PT claims to have initially instructed him and then
          > > > passed him (PT) over to RT (after one year) for initiation into ECK.
          > > <snip>
          > >
          > > I wonder if there is anything in writing about the number 970 and the
          > > "next master" being either Sudar Singh or Kirpal Singh - according to
          > > any known path of masters.
          > >
          > > Did the "path" that Kirpal Singh followed have a documented history
          > > of nine-hundred-and-something masters?
          > >
          > > I'm not giving any opinion on facts either way, but the number 970
          > > is what I am curious about, and if there is another path that claimed
          > > or claims to have a line of masters that long (besides Eckankar or
          > > Eckankar "off-shoot" paths).
          > >
          > > My hunch for now is that I simply don't know. Does anybody else?
          > > In other words, is there more information on this?
          > >
          > > Etznab
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > **************************************
          > > AOL now offers free email to everyone.
          > > Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com
          > >
          >
        • etznab@aol.com
          Prometheus, Thank you for the response that appeared to mention Rebazar Tarzs, Sudar Singh, and Paul Twitchell together (in Sudar Singh s house). I wonder what
          Message 4 of 20 , Mar 22 5:58 PM
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            Prometheus,

               Thank you for the response that appeared to mention Rebazar
            Tarzs, Sudar Singh, and Paul Twitchell together (in Sudar Singh's
            house).

               I wonder what year that was, since (according to some reports)
            Dialogiues With The Master was "written" in the 50's - round about
            the time Paul Twitchell was corresponding with Kirpal Singh.

               Did Paul know three masters in the 1950s? Kirpal Singh, Sudar
            Singh, and Rebazar Tarzs? I can't be sure. Especially since the
            names of these three have a habit of changing over time when the
            newer writings of Paul Twitchell are compared with the old. And
            then there are the examples where Rebazar's (and other Master's)
            words are similar, if not identical, to the authors of published books
            that Paul Twitchell read.

               At any rate, thanks for the Dialogue's With The Master trivia.

            Etznab


            Etznab



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          • Chris Olds
            It wasn t any year dude...the guy made it all up. cmon post this stuff on ARE where people actually want to talk about this... don t you get it, this group is
            Message 5 of 20 , Mar 22 6:04 PM
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              It wasn't any year dude...the guy made it all up.

              cmon' post this stuff on ARE where people actually want to talk about this...

              don't you get it, this group is for people who're DONE with Eckankar..??




              On 3/22/07, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:

              Prometheus,

                 Thank you for the response that appeared to mention Rebazar
              Tarzs, Sudar Singh, and Paul Twitchell together (in Sudar Singh's
              house).

                 I wonder what year that was, since (according to some reports)
              Dialogiues With The Master was "written" in the 50's - round about
              the time Paul Twitchell was corresponding with Kirpal Singh.

                 Did Paul know three masters in the 1950s? Kirpal Singh, Sudar
              Singh, and Rebazar Tarzs? I can't be sure. Especially since the
              names of these three have a habit of changing over time when the
              newer writings of Paul Twitchell are compared with the old. And
              then there are the examples where Rebazar's (and other Master's)
              words are similar, if not identical, to the authors of published books
              that Paul Twitchell read.

                 At any rate, thanks for the Dialogue's With The Master trivia.

              Etznab


              Etznab



              **************************************
              AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com.




              --
              Chris  Olds ~
              Antelope Valley Network Services ~ Green Earth Hosting ~ 661-264-4087

              http://www.avnetservices.com ~ http://www.greenearthosting.com
            • etznab@aol.com
              In a message dated 3/22/07 9:05:56 AM Central Standard Time, prometheus_973@yahoo.com writes: ... I see your point Prometheus. Why (if Sudar
              Message 6 of 20 , Mar 22 6:15 PM
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                In a message dated 3/22/07 9:05:56 AM Central Standard Time, prometheus_973@... writes:

                <snip>

                Since Sudar Singh is listed in the ECKANKAR Lexicon
                as a LEM why then didn't he initiate and instruct Twit?
                Probably because Sudar Singh was really Kirpal Singh
                (a.k.a. Rebazar Tarzs) of Ruhani Satsang whom PT had
                studied under from 1955-1965 and who PT wrote of
                as his Master in The Tiger's Fang (Paul later changed his
                name). Even Doug Marman confirms that Kirpal didn't
                return The Tiger's Fang manuscript to PT until 1966!

                <snip>

                   I see your point Prometheus. Why (if Sudar Singh was the Living
                Eck Master - of which there is only one at a time?), why did Sudar
                Singh send Paul Twitchell to Rebazar Tarzs to be initiated?

                   Rebazar Tarzs was an "Eck Initiator" at the time? :) ?

                   No, that doesn't seem to hold water. IMO it does look like Kirpal
                Singh may have been something other in the earlier writings than
                what he appears (IMO) to be later on. Especially if his name was
                changed and/or deleted from Eckankar writings over time. I believe
                there are illustrated examples of this.

                Etznab

                  



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              • prometheus_973
                Hi Chris, Etznab, and All, I will, also, have to agree that Twitchell just made it all up as he went along. This fakery, of course, needed to be tweaked from
                Message 7 of 20 , Mar 22 6:54 PM
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                  Hi Chris, Etznab, and All,
                  I will, also, have to agree that Twitchell just
                  made it all up as he went along. This fakery,
                  of course, needed to be tweaked from time-
                  to-time. BTW-The copyright for The Tiger's
                  Fang is 1967 and for Dialogues With the Master
                  it's 1970. And, only in later chapters of "Dialogues"
                  does PT start to use the term "Mahanta" which
                  was first introduced in the Jan. 1, 1969 monthly
                  Wisdom Notes.

                  Also, as Klemp points out in the PT info on
                  ECKANKAR.org PT was 27 years old in 1935
                  (born 10/22/1908) and was 'exaggerating'
                  and 'twisting facts' to get into Who's Who
                  in Kentucky and had never left the U.S. until
                  he joined the Navy in 1942. Yet, PT (a proven
                  liar) supposedly met Sudar on his first trip to
                  India in 1935, and Rebazar on his second trip
                  to India in 1951. However, if PT was initiated
                  by Rebazar in 1951 why did Kirpal Singh
                  initiate Paul on his first trip to the U.S. in 1955!
                  Remember too that Twit followed Kirpal for
                  10 years and that Klemp even states that Kirpal
                  had been sent The Tiger's Fang manuscript
                  which Kirpal returned to Twitchell in 1966 and
                  that it was published in 1967.

                  Actually, other than some limited travel while
                  in the Navy Twitchell never made it to England
                  (let alone India) until 1969 when he traveled
                  there with Gail.

                  Prometheus



                  Chris wrote:
                  >
                  > It wasn't any year dude...the guy made it all up.
                  >
                  > cmon' post this stuff on ARE where people actually want to talk about
                  > this...
                  >
                  > don't you get it, this group is for people who're DONE with Eckankar..??
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > On 3/22/07, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Prometheus,
                  > >
                  > > Thank you for the response that appeared to mention Rebazar
                  > > Tarzs, Sudar Singh, and Paul Twitchell together (in Sudar Singh's
                  > > house).
                  > >
                  > > I wonder what year that was, since (according to some reports)
                  > > Dialogiues With The Master was "written" in the 50's - round about
                  > > the time Paul Twitchell was corresponding with Kirpal Singh.
                  > >
                  > > Did Paul know three masters in the 1950s? Kirpal Singh, Sudar
                  > > Singh, and Rebazar Tarzs? I can't be sure. Especially since the
                  > > names of these three have a habit of changing over time when the
                  > > newer writings of Paul Twitchell are compared with the old. And
                  > > then there are the examples where Rebazar's (and other Master's)
                  > > words are similar, if not identical, to the authors of published books
                  > > that Paul Twitchell read.
                  > >
                  > > At any rate, thanks for the Dialogue's With The Master trivia.
                  > >
                  > > Etznab
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Etznab
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > **************************************
                  > > AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
                  > > from AOL at http://www.aol.com
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --
                  > Chris Olds ~
                  > Antelope Valley Network Services ~ Green Earth Hosting ~ 661-264-4087
                  >
                  > http://www.avnetservices.com ~ http://www.greenearthosting.com
                  >
                • etznab@aol.com
                  In a message dated 3/22/07 9:05:56 AM Central Standard Time, ... Prometheus, What is wrong with this picture? Anything? During the middle and later
                  Message 8 of 20 , Mar 22 7:31 PM
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                    In a message dated 3/22/07 9:05:56 AM Central Standard Time, prometheus_973@... writes:


                    Hello All,
                    Here's more info that I found on Sudar Singh and
                    Rebazar from The Wisdom Notes, Sept. 1, 1969.

                    PT: "I learned this when given the initiation to the
                    ECK by Rebazar Tarzs many years ago. After studying
                    under Sudar Singh for a year, I wandered about for
                    some time studying under different teachers but
                    found no one worthy of the works of Eck and returned
                    to Sudar Singh much more practical than before. It
                    was he who sent me to Rebazar Tarzs for the initiation
                    into ECKANKAR."

                    <snip>

                    Prometheus,

                       What is wrong with this picture? Anything?

                    "During the middle and later part of the nineteenth century
                    Yu Rangta, a Chinese Master, lived in the Gobi Desert and
                    was the living ECK Master of his times."

                    [Based on: The Spiritual Notebook, by Paul Twitchell, 10th
                    printing 1983, p. 195] - [Original copyright 1971]

                    "The next Master was Sudar Singh of Allahabad who spread
                    ECK to Europe and other places on the globe. He lived into his
                    nineties before passing away."

                    [Based on: The Spiritual Notebook, by Paul Twitchell, 10th
                    printing 1983, p. 195]

                    "Tamaqui. tah-MAH-kee. A minor ECK Master in Germany during
                    the latter part of the nineteenth century."

                    [Based on: A Cosmic Sea of Words - The Eckankar Lexicon, by
                    Harold Klemp (Copyright 1998), p. 205]

                    "Following him [Sudar Singh] is Peddar Zaskq ... He became the
                    Mahanta, the living ECK Master after studying under Rebazar
                    Tarzs."

                    [Based on: The Spiritual Notebook, by Paul Twitchell, 10th
                    printing 1983, p. 195]

                    *********

                       Though I am not sure exactly why, the date on my "Trivia"
                    Timeline for the Eck Master Sudar Singh is "1885?" (It is not
                    a definite date, but more of an educated guess). However, if
                    Sudar Singh came after Yu Rangta (who lived into the later
                    half of the 19th century)???

                       Sudar Singh apparently lived into his 90s, and after him
                    came Peddar Zaskq. So, even if the "latter half of the 19th
                    century" amounted to, say, 1860 (a conservative guess), if
                    you add just 90 years to 1860 you get 1950.

                       So, my guess is that for Rebazar to fit into the timeline
                    he must have served as Living Eck Master between Sudar
                    and Paul. But this is not what the Spiritual Notebook says.

                       According to the Spiritual Notebook (p. 193 - 10th printing),
                    Rebazar Tarzs was born in the year 1461. So I must assume
                    that he first served (according to the writings) as Living Eck
                    Master long before Sudar Singh. If he served again as Living
                    Eck Master after that, I must assume he was "filling in" for
                    someone.

                       Apparently, according to The Spiritual Notebook, Paul
                    Twitchell "... became the Mahanta, the living ECK Master after
                    studying under Rebazar Tarzs." So, here again, it looks like
                    "Rebazar Tarzs" taught Paul Twitchell even though Paul also
                    knew Sudar Singh.

                       If Rebazar Tarzs was living in a physical body after Sudar
                    Singh died (and before Paul became Living Eck Master?),
                    would that not have made Rebazar Tarz the Living Eck Master?
                    between Sudar Singh and Peddar Zaskq (Paul Twitchell)?

                       "[....] Paul was learning how to put the truths he found on the
                    inner planes into writing. He had a very difficult time figuring out a
                    way to present Eckankar to this society. The earliest mention of
                    his use of the word Eckankar was about 1960 or 1961. He said he
                    had come across the teachings through Sudar Singh in a general  
                    way as early as 1935, then studied them in depth with Rebazar
                    Tarzs starting in 1951. But the teachings were difficult for him to
                    bring out, because nobody cared. [....]"

                    [Based on: Article (Getting the ECK Message Out) by Harold Klemp]
                    http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html#training 

                       1951? Subtract 90 years from 1951 and you get 1861. That is if
                    Sudar Singh only lived to 90 (but the S.N. said nineties).

                       At any rate, it "appears" as though Sudar Singh must have been
                    Living Eck Master since at least 1860 (latter half of the nineteenth
                    century?). Appears, IMO.

                       There isn't time now, but I should probably look at the dates for
                    name replacements between Sudar Singh and Kirpal Singh. Also,
                    try and find out when exactly Sudar Singh died.

                       Funny though that there is not any "historical records" of Rebazar
                    Tarzs or Sudar Singh - at least not "historical" in the same sense as
                    Kirpal Singh. Ironic if his name [Kirpal Singh] was replaced by "non-
                    historical" characters. Some might even say "mythical? characters.

                       Personally, I myself would like to know if this is in fact the case.
                    At least so that I could put all of these characters into better context.

                    Etznab



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                  • etznab@aol.com
                    In a message dated 3/22/07 7:54:55 PM Central Standard Time, prometheus_973@yahoo.com writes: ... Prometheus, IMO that is a good point. In 1955,
                    Message 9 of 20 , Mar 22 7:51 PM
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                      In a message dated 3/22/07 7:54:55 PM Central Standard Time, prometheus_973@... writes:

                      <snip>

                      However, if PT was initiated
                      by Rebazar in 1951 why did Kirpal Singh
                      initiate Paul on his first trip to the U.S. in 1955!
                      Remember too that Twit followed Kirpal for
                      10 years and that Klemp even states that Kirpal
                      had been sent The Tiger's Fang manuscript
                      which Kirpal returned to Twitchell in 1966 and
                      that it was published in 1967.

                      <snip>

                         Prometheus,

                         IMO that is a good point.

                      "In 1955, Sant Kirpal Singh wrote an introduction to
                      his teachings especially intended for Westerners, called
                      Man, Know Thyself. The principle teaching expounded the
                      underlying thread of the esoteric Sound Current (Shabd,
                      Naam, or Word) as the root experience of the Saints,
                      which is discussed in the scriptures and continues to be
                      available. He also stressed the importance of a living
                      Master or Guru, as one can derive nothing from past
                      Masters (i.e., Saints or Masters who have died.) ...."

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirpal_Singh

                         The importance of a living Master or Guru? Is this
                      why Paul Twitchell appeared in the 1950s to have at
                      least two? Rebazar Tarzs and Kirpal Singh?

                         "Paul wrote Dialogues With The Master around 1956,
                      from the references I have seen, but didn't publish it until
                      1970. Paul also wrote The Flute of God in 1959, but didn't
                      put it into print until 1966, in the Orion Magazine series.
                      This pattern is similar to Paul's writing of The Far Country
                      in 1963, which wasn't published until 1970."

                      [Based on: Doug Marman, Dialogue in the Age of Criticism,
                      Chap. 6]  

                         That Paul Twitchell had correspondence and/or relations
                      with Kirpal Singh during the same time when he (Paul) was
                      writing Dialogues With The Master, The Flute of God, and
                      The Far Country is not what I want to know.

                         Personally, I would like to know if the original verson of the
                      Tiger's Fang had the name Kirpal Singh instead of Rebazar
                      Tarzs. I can't say that it did. Is there anything to prove that
                      it did?

                      Etznab



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                    • ewickings
                      Etznab wrote: What is wrong with this picture? Anything? During the middle and later part of the nineteenth century Yu Rangta, a Chinese Master, lived in
                      Message 10 of 20 , Mar 23 4:08 AM
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                        Etznab wrote:    What is wrong with this picture? Anything?

                        "During the middle and later part of the nineteenth century
                        Yu Rangta, a Chinese Master, lived in the Gobi Desert and
                        was the living ECK Master of his times."

                        [Based on: The Spiritual Notebook, by Paul Twitchell, 10th
                        printing 1983, p. 195] - [Original copyright 1971]

                        "The next Master was Sudar Singh of Allahabad who spread
                        ECK to Europe and other places on the globe. He lived into his
                        nineties before passing away."

                        [Based on: The Spiritual Notebook, by Paul Twitchell, 10th
                        printing 1983, p. 195]

                        "Tamaqui. tah-MAH-kee. A minor ECK Master in Germany during
                        the latter part of the nineteenth century."

                        [Based on: A Cosmic Sea of Words - The Eckankar Lexicon, by
                        Harold Klemp (Copyright 1998), p. 205]

                        "Following him [Sudar Singh] is Peddar Zaskq ... He became the
                        Mahanta, the living ECK Master after studying under Rebazar
                        Tarzs."

                        [Based on: The Spiritual Notebook, by Paul Twitchell, 10th
                        printing 1983, p. 195]

                        *********

                             Funny though that there is not any "historical records" of Rebazar
                        Tarzs or Sudar Singh - at least not "historical" in the same sense as
                        Kirpal Singh. Ironic if his name [Kirpal Singh] was replaced by "non-
                        historical" characters. Some might even say "mythical? characters.

                           Personally, I myself would like to know if this is in fact the case.
                        At least so that I could put all of these characters into better context.

                        Etznab

                        +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                         
                         
                        Etznab what I find to be wrong with "This Picture" is that each of these quotes from the eck books are from those that HK started editing.  Why not get your hands on first copies of the books Paul wrote, so you can see how it was changed over the years?  As Paul saw fit, he changed the names of Masters...   As HK sees fit, he changes the eck teachings to cover up the truth!  I would also suspect HK's eck Lawyer/s have counseled him on the repercussions if he were to come completely clean and spill his guts.  Can you just imagine how many eckies would be jumping off bridges to end their lives because they were duped for so long!? 
                         
                        One can only assume how things in Oregon went when Darwin moved his office there and tried to set up his eckankar, later ATOM.  Now those chelas there must be real looney birds what with all the confusion that they experienced first hand!  ;-)  And how many of them were duped by Darwin from that area, before they realized he was a black magician who initiated HK......  And then in the end didn't Darwin fight for the rod...  Sounds like a Star Wars movie.  Oh wait, didn't Darwin compare eckankar to it?  May the force be with you.....   LOL 
                         
                        Hey here is an idea, why not ask Darwin for the original info on PT?  He claims to have PT's best interest at heart.  Whereas HK just wants to cover it up and make eckankrap his Christian type religion!  :-O
                         
                        Elizabeth  
                      • spaceportcomputers
                        Hello all, Elizabeth...well said...here here...rah rah. ... It is pretty typical how Mr. Etznab keeps ignoring the relevant parts of someones answer...and just
                        Message 11 of 20 , Mar 23 7:16 AM
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                          Hello all,

                          Elizabeth...well said...here here...rah rah.

                          >Some might even say "mythical? characters.

                          It is pretty typical how Mr. Etznab keeps ignoring the relevant parts
                          of someones answer...and just has more questions. It's almost
                          funny...if there weren't so many on this group who've accepted the
                          FACT, that it's all Mythical. It might be funny, but to me?

                          It's highly inappropriate for you Mr. Etznab..to be posting this shit
                          to an Eckankar Survivors List...Get it?

                          There are people here who are trying to heal from terrible damage done
                          to them and their lives by these wacko Eckists.

                          you catching any of this?...or are you just ignoring it and
                          formulating more questions about mythical characters that Paul
                          Twitchell ripped off or made up himself. I wish you could see how
                          insipid and ignorant you are...yeah...look closely at the word
                          "ignorant", see any words in there that mean anything to you? Like
                          ignore. Ignore everyone else except yourself and your "spiritual
                          path", think only of yourself.

                          wake up,






                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "ewickings"
                          <ewickings@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Etznab wrote: What is wrong with this picture? Anything?
                          >
                          > "During the middle and later part of the nineteenth century
                          > Yu Rangta, a Chinese Master, lived in the Gobi Desert and
                          > was the living ECK Master of his times."
                          >
                          > [Based on: The Spiritual Notebook, by Paul Twitchell, 10th
                          > printing 1983, p. 195] - [Original copyright 1971]
                          >
                          > "The next Master was Sudar Singh of Allahabad who spread
                          > ECK to Europe and other places on the globe. He lived into his
                          > nineties before passing away."
                          >
                          > [Based on: The Spiritual Notebook, by Paul Twitchell, 10th
                          > printing 1983, p. 195]
                          >
                          > "Tamaqui. tah-MAH-kee. A minor ECK Master in Germany during
                          > the latter part of the nineteenth century."
                          >
                          > [Based on: A Cosmic Sea of Words - The Eckankar Lexicon, by
                          > Harold Klemp (Copyright 1998), p. 205]
                          >
                          > "Following him [Sudar Singh] is Peddar Zaskq ... He became the
                          > Mahanta, the living ECK Master after studying under Rebazar
                          > Tarzs."
                          >
                          > [Based on: The Spiritual Notebook, by Paul Twitchell, 10th
                          > printing 1983, p. 195]
                          >
                          > *********
                          >
                          > Funny though that there is not any "historical records" of Rebazar
                          > Tarzs or Sudar Singh - at least not "historical" in the same sense as
                          > Kirpal Singh. Ironic if his name [Kirpal Singh] was replaced by "non-
                          > historical" characters. Some might even say "mythical? characters.
                          >
                          > Personally, I myself would like to know if this is in fact the case.
                          > At least so that I could put all of these characters into better
                          context.
                          >
                          > Etznab
                          >
                          > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                          >
                          >
                          > Etznab what I find to be wrong with "This Picture" is that each of these
                          > quotes from the eck books are from those that HK started editing.
                          Why not
                          > get your hands on first copies of the books Paul wrote, so you can
                          see how
                          > it was changed over the years? As Paul saw fit, he changed the names of
                          > Masters... As HK sees fit, he changes the eck teachings to cover
                          up the
                          > truth! I would also suspect HK's eck Lawyer/s have counseled him on the
                          > repercussions if he were to come completely clean and spill his
                          guts. Can
                          > you just imagine how many eckies would be jumping off bridges to end
                          their
                          > lives because they were duped for so long!?
                          >
                          > One can only assume how things in Oregon went when Darwin moved his
                          office
                          > there and tried to set up his eckankar, later ATOM. Now those
                          chelas there
                          > must be real looney birds what with all the confusion that they
                          experienced
                          > first hand! ;-) And how many of them were duped by Darwin from
                          that area,
                          > before they realized he was a black magician who initiated HK...... And
                          > then in the end didn't Darwin fight for the rod... Sounds like a
                          Star Wars
                          > movie. Oh wait, didn't Darwin compare eckankar to it? May the force be
                          > with you..... LOL
                          >
                          > Hey here is an idea, why not ask Darwin for the original info on PT? He
                          > claims to have PT's best interest at heart. Whereas HK just wants
                          to cover
                          > it up and make eckankrap his Christian type religion! :-O
                          >
                          > Elizabeth
                          >
                        • prometheus_973
                          Hi Chris, I have to agree that this time-line discussion is much ado about nothing! Twitchell is a known plagiarist and liar and Marman is as reliable of a
                          Message 12 of 20 , Mar 23 9:40 AM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi Chris,
                            I have to agree that this time-line discussion is
                            much ado about nothing! Twitchell is a known
                            plagiarist and liar and Marman is as reliable of
                            a source as Wikipedia. LOL!

                            However, some of the information given by Klemp
                            on ECKANKAR.org like with PT's age of 27, in 1935,
                            when Twitch was, supposedly, meeting LEM Sudar
                            Singh in India (on PT's first visit) while at the same
                            time 'exaggerating' and 'twisting facts' to get into
                            "Who's Who in Kentucky" speaks volumns as to PT's
                            truthiness and creditability on any subject, at any
                            time, and on any level.

                            Prometheus



                            "spaceportcomputers" wrote:
                            >
                            > Hello all,
                            >
                            > Elizabeth...well said...here here...rah rah.
                            >
                            > >Some might even say "mythical? characters.
                            >
                            > It is pretty typical how Mr. Etznab keeps ignoring the relevant parts
                            > of someones answer...and just has more questions. It's almost
                            > funny...if there weren't so many on this group who've accepted the
                            > FACT, that it's all Mythical. It might be funny, but to me?
                            >
                            > It's highly inappropriate for you Mr. Etznab..to be posting this shit
                            > to an Eckankar Survivors List...Get it?
                            >
                            > There are people here who are trying to heal from terrible damage done
                            > to them and their lives by these wacko Eckists.
                            >
                            > you catching any of this?...or are you just ignoring it and
                            > formulating more questions about mythical characters that Paul
                            > Twitchell ripped off or made up himself. I wish you could see how
                            > insipid and ignorant you are...yeah...look closely at the word
                            > "ignorant", see any words in there that mean anything to you? Like
                            > ignore. Ignore everyone else except yourself and your "spiritual
                            > path", think only of yourself.
                            >
                            > wake up,
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "ewickings"
                            > <ewickings@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Etznab wrote: What is wrong with this picture? Anything?
                            > >
                            > > "During the middle and later part of the nineteenth century
                            > > Yu Rangta, a Chinese Master, lived in the Gobi Desert and
                            > > was the living ECK Master of his times."
                            > >
                            > > [Based on: The Spiritual Notebook, by Paul Twitchell, 10th
                            > > printing 1983, p. 195] - [Original copyright 1971]
                            > >
                            > > "The next Master was Sudar Singh of Allahabad who spread
                            > > ECK to Europe and other places on the globe. He lived into his
                            > > nineties before passing away."
                            > >
                            > > [Based on: The Spiritual Notebook, by Paul Twitchell, 10th
                            > > printing 1983, p. 195]
                            > >
                            > > "Tamaqui. tah-MAH-kee. A minor ECK Master in Germany during
                            > > the latter part of the nineteenth century."
                            > >
                            > > [Based on: A Cosmic Sea of Words - The Eckankar Lexicon, by
                            > > Harold Klemp (Copyright 1998), p. 205]
                            > >
                            > > "Following him [Sudar Singh] is Peddar Zaskq ... He became the
                            > > Mahanta, the living ECK Master after studying under Rebazar
                            > > Tarzs."
                            > >
                            > > [Based on: The Spiritual Notebook, by Paul Twitchell, 10th
                            > > printing 1983, p. 195]
                            > >
                            > > *********
                            > >
                            > > Funny though that there is not any "historical records" of Rebazar
                            > > Tarzs or Sudar Singh - at least not "historical" in the same sense as
                            > > Kirpal Singh. Ironic if his name [Kirpal Singh] was replaced by "non-
                            > > historical" characters. Some might even say "mythical? characters.
                            > >
                            > > Personally, I myself would like to know if this is in fact the case.
                            > > At least so that I could put all of these characters into better
                            > context.
                            > >
                            > > Etznab
                            > >
                            > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                            +++
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Etznab what I find to be wrong with "This Picture" is that each of these
                            > > quotes from the eck books are from those that HK started editing.
                            > Why not
                            > > get your hands on first copies of the books Paul wrote, so you can
                            > see how
                            > > it was changed over the years? As Paul saw fit, he changed the names of
                            > > Masters... As HK sees fit, he changes the eck teachings to cover
                            > up the
                            > > truth! I would also suspect HK's eck Lawyer/s have counseled him on the
                            > > repercussions if he were to come completely clean and spill his
                            > guts. Can
                            > > you just imagine how many eckies would be jumping off bridges to end
                            > their
                            > > lives because they were duped for so long!?
                            > >
                            > > One can only assume how things in Oregon went when Darwin moved his
                            > office
                            > > there and tried to set up his eckankar, later ATOM. Now those
                            > chelas there
                            > > must be real looney birds what with all the confusion that they
                            > experienced
                            > > first hand! ;-) And how many of them were duped by Darwin from
                            > that area,
                            > > before they realized he was a black magician who initiated HK...... And
                            > > then in the end didn't Darwin fight for the rod... Sounds like a
                            > Star Wars
                            > > movie. Oh wait, didn't Darwin compare eckankar to it? May the force be
                            > > with you..... LOL
                            > >
                            > > Hey here is an idea, why not ask Darwin for the original info on PT? He
                            > > claims to have PT's best interest at heart. Whereas HK just wants
                            > to cover
                            > > it up and make eckankrap his Christian type religion! :-O
                            > >
                            > > Elizabeth
                            > >
                            >
                          • ctecvie
                            Hi there! :-) ... EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, spaceportcomputers ... *** No, I don t think so. :-)) Etznab keeps posting on ESA, in full
                            Message 13 of 20 , Mar 23 9:45 AM
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                              Hi there! :-)

                              --- In
                              EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "spaceportcomputers"
                              <greenearthosting@...> wrote:
                              ---snip---
                              > It is pretty typical how Mr. Etznab keeps ignoring the relevant
                              >parts
                              > of someones answer...and just has more questions. It's almost
                              > funny...if there weren't so many on this group who've accepted the
                              > FACT, that it's all Mythical. It might be funny, but to me?
                              >
                              > It's highly inappropriate for you Mr. Etznab..to be posting this
                              >shit
                              > to an Eckankar Survivors List...Get it?

                              *** No, I don't think so. :-)) Etznab keeps posting on ESA, in full
                              awareness that this is an ex-eckists list. Well, I think he just
                              doesn't want to learn - he has been getting on and on and on since I
                              don't know how many years now - I think since the truth seeker site
                              of Ford Johnson opened. When was this? 2003? So you might say - no,
                              it's unlikely that Etznab will ever get it. He will always be there,
                              in a limbo - half inside, and half outside of eckankar. Or, as I have
                              been suspecting for a while now - he might have this agenda to spam
                              ESA with posts in order to get his ekkie twist on it?? Who knows??
                              >
                              > There are people here who are trying to heal from terrible damage
                              >done
                              > to them and their lives by these wacko Eckists.
                              >
                              > you catching any of this?...or are you just ignoring it and
                              > formulating more questions about mythical characters that Paul
                              > Twitchell ripped off or made up himself.

                              *** No, not catching any of it, I think. :-) Just ignoring!
                              ---snip---

                              Well, as the oldtimers on this list know well,sometimes Etznab is
                              pretty tough on my nerves - but well, maybe it's me that isn't
                              getting any of this! LOL!
                              Ingrid
                            • etznab@aol.com
                              In a message dated 3/23/07 5:43:06 AM Central Standard Time, ewickings@comcast.net writes: ... I thought about Darwin. But I don t know. Consider
                              Message 14 of 20 , Mar 23 12:03 PM
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                                In a message dated 3/23/07 5:43:06 AM Central Standard Time, ewickings@... writes:

                                <snip>

                                Hey here is an idea, why not ask Darwin for the original info on PT?  He claims to have PT's best interest at heart.  Whereas HK just wants to cover it up and make eckankrap his Christian type religion!  :-O

                                <snip>

                                   I thought about Darwin. But I don't know. Consider the following:

                                "According to testimony taken on May 31st, 1984, the former Living
                                ECK Master, Darwin Gross, reportedly claimed that in January, 1983,
                                his successor, Harold Klemp, was asked to step aside. Reportedly, it
                                was Rebazar Tarz and Yaubl Sacabi who asked Harold Klemp to step
                                aside."

                                Confessions of a God Seeker,  A Journey to Higher Consciousness,
                                p. 239

                                   If I remember this correctly, it was an Eckist who had a dream that
                                Darwin Gross later tried to use for a defense. So it wasn't like Rebazar
                                Tarzs and Yaubl Sacabi spoke directly to Darwin. Is this the correct
                                information?

                                   Yes, I thought about Darwin. Need I say more?

                                Etznab



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                              • etznab@aol.com
                                greenearth, Ignorant basically means lacking knowledge of . People usually ask questions to become more knowledgeable. Etznab
                                Message 15 of 20 , Mar 23 12:10 PM
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                                  greenearth,

                                  Ignorant basically means "lacking knowledge of".

                                  People usually ask questions to become more
                                  knowledgeable.

                                  Etznab



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                                • etznab@aol.com
                                  Ingrid, After initial responses to the recent Rebazar Tarzs thread, I wrote a much longer post and DID go out of my way NOT to post it here on E.S.A. It
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Mar 23 1:23 PM
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                                    Ingrid,

                                       After initial responses to the recent Rebazar Tarzs thread, I wrote
                                    a much longer post and DID go out of my way NOT to post it here
                                    on E.S.A.

                                       It appears at times that even current "disgruntled" members of
                                    Eckankar who would vent frustrations anonymously here at E.S.A.
                                    are still "maligned" simply for the fact of not having "moved on" and
                                    become an ex-member.

                                       In the site description for E.S.A. would it better serve the people
                                    looking for closure if it simply said No Eckists Allowed?

                                       A person doesn't have to be an ex-member of Eckankar in order
                                    to be "disgruntled" or want to vent "frustrations" about some facets
                                    of the written dogma (Eckankar or not). Over the years I have come
                                    across many a member in Eckankar who took issue with some part
                                    of the literal teachings. In other words, people who had questions.
                                    It is probably inevitable for something like this to happen for people
                                    who follow any form of teaching, religious or not.

                                       You know all too well that Eckankar members and member sites
                                    will "generally" (repeat, "GENERALLY") not approach certain topics
                                    or directly answer questions in the same way(s) as ex-members and
                                    ex-member sites.

                                       Personally, I have chosen to look at both sides of the fence and
                                    not just one. I have also communicated with people on both sides
                                    of a number of issues. I have been maligned and complimented for
                                    my contributions. Both from Eckists and Non-Eckists alike.

                                       It is sometimes amusing to watch what goes on, or what goes
                                    back and forth on these sites that comment about Eckankar. At
                                    other times it is downright pathetic the ways that some people
                                    are spoken to.

                                       Some have argued that I should just come out and speak in
                                    plain language and be direct instead of asking many questions
                                    or appearing vague. But I have labored to find a middle ground
                                    by asking many questions instead of making only statements
                                    so that people would feel free to communicate their own point
                                    of view.

                                       In a certain sense, isn't a person almost obligated to take a
                                    middle position if they should want to "truly" see both sides of
                                    any issue? And if they do not take the middle ground but side
                                    with only one extreme, isn't that the same as trying to defend
                                    an exclusively biased view? Isn't that what creates lines drawn
                                    in the sand behind which defensive positions are erected and
                                    weapons of war are manufactured out of fear?

                                       Perhaps it is way too easy to forget that I had been acquiring
                                    a passion for researching history years before "Confessions"
                                    and years before asking very many questions in public bulletin
                                    boards about the history of Eckankar.

                                       You (I do) look at both sides when researching history.
                                    In many cases you almost have to in order to get the facts.
                                    You look in all the places that a person would naturally look.
                                    Even in the places where people don't want you to look. You
                                    look in places marked "off limits" or "forbidden", like in the
                                    movie "Planet of the Apes".

                                       I said: "You", even though I meant me. I can't speak for other
                                    people about what they have found or about their experiences
                                    according to them. There is only one way to do this sometimes
                                    if I don't know the answers. That way is to listen and try to hear
                                    what another person is actually saying and not what I only want
                                    to hear. It's not always easy. I try. And I know that many of you
                                    do too. Even at times don't try, but do. And do it well. Listen -
                                    even to my at times apparently incoherent babbling.

                                       Rebazar Tarzs (the "history" of which) is still a subject that I
                                    am asking questions about and becoming involved in discussions
                                    about because this character appears central to the continued
                                    integrity of the Eckankar line of Masters. IMO, if anything should
                                    happen to the current spiritual leader of Eckankar, the "power"
                                    would default to REBAZAR TARZS!!! As I believe it has in the past.
                                    Naturally I would want to gather as much history about Rebazar
                                    Tarzs as possible. Even to the extent of proving his physical or
                                    his non-physical existence (whichever is the case) if at all possible.

                                       Though it was addressed to Ingrid, this post is for E.S.A. and
                                    anybody who should read it.

                                       Thanks for the history that you shared on E.S.A. and for allowing
                                    me to visit and to even post here.

                                    Etznab

                                    Etznab
                                      

                                      

                                      

                                      



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                                  • ctecvie
                                    Etznab, by the huge amount of questions you are asking (and they are always the same and were already answered!) you should not be ignorant any longer! So,
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Mar 23 2:00 PM
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                                      Etznab,

                                      by the huge amount of questions you are asking (and they are always
                                      the same and were already answered!) you should not be ignorant any
                                      longer!

                                      So, what kind of game are you playing here?
                                      Ingrid
                                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
                                      >
                                      > greenearth,
                                      >
                                      > Ignorant basically means "lacking knowledge of".
                                      >
                                      > People usually ask questions to become more
                                      > knowledgeable.
                                      >
                                      > Etznab
                                      >
                                      >
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                                      http://www.aol.com
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                                    • prometheus_973
                                      Hello Etznab & All, Let s clear up the Darwin thing by stating that Dap Ren (DG) was still a FULL Mahanta (14th Initiate) when the 12th or 13th apprentice,
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Mar 24 5:02 AM
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                                        Hello Etznab & All,
                                        Let's clear up the Darwin thing by stating that Dap Ren
                                        (DG) was still a 'FULL' Mahanta (14th Initiate) when the
                                        12th or 13th apprentice, Klemp, booted his Master. And,
                                        Gail's dream of Paul selecting Darwin was good enough
                                        for the Board of ECKANKAR back in 1971 wasn't it! I, also,
                                        guess that Gail's dream was good enough for Rebazar too!

                                        Darwin's mistake, other than trusting Klemp, was not to
                                        point out that he, the FULL Mahanta, was always the highest
                                        source of authority and power within ECKANKAR and that
                                        Klemp was not 'fully-cooked' and was being controlled by
                                        the KAL. There is plenty of ECK material that would have
                                        backed this claim up in court.

                                        On Another Note: It is obvious that Twitchell Did Not
                                        meet Rebazar 'on his Second trip to India in 1951'
                                        (as Klemp claims in the PT info on ECKANKAR.org)
                                        since PT Never Met Sudar Singh 'on his first trip in
                                        1935' at age 27. [PT was born in 1908 according to
                                        the copyright page of the ShariYat Books 1&2]

                                        However, IF Twitchell had met RT, prior to even 1965,
                                        and was initiated by him (instead of LEM SUDAR SINGH
                                        which doesn't make sense) Why did Twitchell send
                                        THE TIGER'S FANG manuscript to KIRPAL SINGH instead
                                        of to REBAZAR TARZS?! Kirpal Singh was the Master of
                                        Ruhani Satsang (a sect of Radhasoami). Actually, Kirpal
                                        was Paul's real Master from 1955-1965. Therefore,
                                        the Initiation by Rebazar and those claimed years of
                                        instruction under RT didn't really take place! These
                                        were just more 'exaggerations' and 'twisting of facts.'

                                        Or, on the other hand... the incredible Rebazar lives in a
                                        hut high in the Hindu Kush mountains and, therefore, has
                                        no mailing address to send the manuscript to! LOL! BUT,
                                        why then couldn't PT just hand the manuscript to RT for
                                        proof-reading, editing, and approval on one of those
                                        nightly visits? Why did Kirpal (according to Klemp on
                                        ECKANKAR. org) have The Tiger's Fang manuscript sent
                                        to him if PT was Not his Chela and, instead, Rebazar's Chela?!
                                        Why does Klemp mention Kirpal's name 15 times and Sudar's
                                        name 6 times in the Twitchell info on ECKANKAR.org as well?
                                        I guess ECKists just aren't really good at connecting the
                                        dots and that's another reason as to why Klemp skips back
                                        and forth so much. Afterall, the age 27 in 1935 and the
                                        1908 birthdate were not listed all together!

                                        But, how is it, also, that Rebazar is supposed to, still, be
                                        living in a 500 year old physical body? Probably, because
                                        only a "Living Master" can pass the Rod to another!
                                        Apparently, then, Rebazar 'the torchbearer of ECKANKAR
                                        in the Lower Worlds' also handed the Rod of ECK Power
                                        to Darwin. Therefore, Rebazar Tarzs handed the Rod of
                                        ECK Power to both Paul Twitchell and to Darwin Gross
                                        while Darwin Gross handed the Rod of ECK Power to Harold
                                        Klemp. However, Rebazar doesn't really exist in the first
                                        place, except, in fiction!

                                        If Rebazar were real I can see why HK (Wah-Zoo) felt
                                        slighted and turned on Darwin Gross (Dap Ren) like a
                                        mad doG. Klemp had the ROD handed to him by (now?)
                                        a Black Magician instead of by Rebazar. Or, Darwin tuned
                                        to the Dark Side of the ECK Force AFTER 1981 since he
                                        wouldn't have been permitted to handle the ROD if he had
                                        fallen from Grace. In any case, according to ECKANKAR
                                        lore/dogma, REBAZAR TARZS Did Not and Could Not have
                                        handed the Rod of ECK Power to Klemp, or met with Twitchell
                                        on a 'Second' visit to India in 1951.

                                        What's all of this mean for the ECKist? WAKE UP! It means
                                        that the Truth is something that they don't want to hear
                                        because they can't handle the Truth! It's way too comfortable
                                        and convenient to accept, imagine, and follow along with
                                        their head in the sand. This is what many ECKists were use
                                        to doing in other religions before they thought they had
                                        found the ECKANKAR substitute for religion.

                                        However,HK changed ECKANKAR back into a religion
                                        again right under our noses! [Klemp even quotes from
                                        the even more distorted King James version of the
                                        Christian Bible!] But, at the time, we were told that the
                                        change to the RELIGION of the light and sound of GOD,
                                        the Worship Services, Choirs and singing ECK songs,
                                        Amazing HU (Grace), the RESA Hierarchy, Guidelines,
                                        etc. was for our own good! Now, it appears, that all along
                                        the changes were really for having more control and power
                                        over the org. and for the good of Harold and Joan! Happy
                                        trails ECKies! Those 'Coins of Gold' created by PT were
                                        really just coins of Fool's Gold! The view outside of the
                                        ECKANKAR box is much clearer than ever!


                                        Prometheus



                                        etznab wrote:
                                        I thought about Darwin. But I don't know. Consider the following:

                                        "According to testimony taken on May 31st, 1984, the former Living
                                        ECK Master, Darwin Gross, reportedly claimed that in January, 1983,
                                        his successor, Harold Klemp, was asked to step aside. Reportedly, it
                                        was Rebazar Tarz and Yaubl Sacabi who asked Harold Klemp to step
                                        aside."
                                        >
                                        Confessions of a God Seeker, A Journey to Higher Consciousness,
                                        p. 239
                                        >
                                        If I remember this correctly, it was an Eckist who had a dream that
                                        Darwin Gross later tried to use for a defense. So it wasn't like Rebazar
                                        Tarzs and Yaubl Sacabi spoke directly to Darwin. Is this the correct
                                        information?
                                        >
                                        Yes, I thought about Darwin. Need I say more?
                                        >
                                        Etznab
                                      • Elizabeth
                                        Yes I have been pondering this Mythical Eck Master Shhhtuff... Not a whole lot mind you, cuz I do have a life! ;-) Rubber Tires can t be found outside of
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Mar 24 2:56 PM
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                                          Yes I have been pondering this Mythical Eck Master Shhhtuff...

                                          Not a whole lot mind you, cuz I do have a life! ;-)


                                          Rubber Tires can't be found outside of eckankrap because.... think
                                          about it. Some of us as children created these made up friends, play
                                          mates etc. Like my 5 year old who has imaginary friends, 2 to be
                                          exact...

                                          As adults "we" (I mean YOU) don't have the spiritual maturity to give
                                          up those imaginary friends. So really, if the eckies want to keep
                                          living in the imaginary world, I say let them. Have fun going on the
                                          inner, and chatting with your play mates. ;-)

                                          I swear Reb is real, just ask my other friend Quball scabbie.

                                          Have a great weekend everyone!

                                          Liz

                                          ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

                                          I'm looking at you through the glass
                                          Don't know how much time has past
                                          Oh, God it feels like forever
                                          But no one ever tells you
                                          That forever feels like home
                                          Sitting all alone inside your head

                                          How do you feel?
                                          That is the question
                                          But I forget
                                          You don't expect an easy answer

                                          When something like a soul
                                          Becomes initialized
                                          And folded up like paper dolls and little notes
                                          You can't expect the bitter folks
                                          And while your outside looking in
                                          Describing what you see
                                          Remember what your staring at is me

                                          Cause' I'm looking at you through the glass
                                          Don't know how much time has past
                                          All I know is that it feels like forever
                                          And no one ever tells you
                                          That forever feels like home
                                          Sitting all alone inside your head

                                          How much is real
                                          So much to question
                                          An epidemic of the mannequins
                                          Contaminating everything
                                          And if that came from the heart
                                          It never did, right from the start
                                          Just listen to the noises(Now I'm more, instead of voices)

                                          Before You tell yourself
                                          It's just a different scene
                                          Remember it's just different from what you've seen

                                          I'm looking at you through the glass
                                          Don't know how much time has past
                                          Now all I know is that feels like forever
                                          And no one ever tells you
                                          That forever feels like home
                                          Sitting all alone inside your head

                                          Cause' I'm looking at you through the glass
                                          Don't know how much time has past
                                          Now all I know is that it feels like forever
                                          And no one ever tells you
                                          That forever feels like home
                                          Sitting all alone inside your head

                                          And it's the stars... the stars... that shine for you
                                          And it's the stars... the stars... that lie to you

                                          I'm looking at you through the glass
                                          Don't know how much time has past
                                          Oh, God it feels like forever
                                          But no one ever tells you
                                          That forever feels like home
                                          Sitting all alone inside your head

                                          Cause' I'm looking at you through the glass
                                          Don't know how much time has past
                                          All I know is that it feels like forever
                                          But no one ever tells you
                                          That forever feels like home
                                          Sitting all alone inside your head

                                          And it's the stars... the stars... that shine for you
                                          And it's the stars... the stars... that lie to you
                                          And it's the stars... the stars... that shine for you
                                          And it's the stars... the stars... that lie to you

                                          Oh, when the stars... Oh, when the stars... they lie



                                          Artist: Stone Sour
                                          Album: Come What (Ever) May
                                          Title: Through Glass
                                        • prometheus_973
                                          Hello All, Can someone jog my memory as to why Darwin (Dap Ren) was booted by Klemp? Was it a just a money issue? Now I know that Darwin was a spender, but
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Mar 25 7:55 AM
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                                            Hello All,
                                            Can someone jog my memory as to why Darwin (Dap Ren)
                                            was booted by Klemp? Was it a just a money issue? Now I
                                            know that Darwin was a spender, but then again that actually
                                            showed Vairag or Non-attachment and Mental Detachment
                                            toward money and that's why DG spent it so freely! Afterall,
                                            Darwin was a Full Mahanta and Vairagi Adept. Perhaps, this
                                            was just a test for Klemp and his cohorts on the Board. They
                                            failed the test by their Second Guessing of the real intent
                                            (a lesson) by the 'FULL' Mahanta!

                                            Afterall, aren't those buildings in Chanhassen just as bad as
                                            having a private jet? The Seat of ECK Power is supposed to
                                            reside wherever the Mahanta is and Not in an airplane Nor in
                                            a Temple. And, isn't Klemp focused upon money too. Look
                                            at those 'DONATION' requests being mailed out, or asking
                                            ECKists to put ECKANKAR Donations into their WILLS. And,
                                            remember, too, one has to remain an active DONATING
                                            current member in order to be elligible for initiations!

                                            BTW - Klemp, by Not Being Able To Connect The Dots on Paul's
                                            1908 birthdate and being 27 years old in 1935 while lying for
                                            Who's Who in Kentucky and having never traveled while meeting
                                            Sudar Singh in India (1935), during this same time period, means
                                            that Klemp can't be a real Mahanta and is of the KAL! Unless,
                                            Klemp is just trying to confuse the whole issue with Twitchell
                                            by scattering bits and pieces of info around which means that
                                            this trickery and dishonesty, by creating confusion, means that
                                            Klemp can't be a real Mahanta and is of the KAL! Really, which
                                            scenario is it? The end result is the same. Klemp is of the KAL!

                                            Prometheus


                                            Prometheus wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Hello Etznab & All,
                                            > Let's clear up the Darwin thing by stating that Dap Ren
                                            > (DG) was still a 'FULL' Mahanta (14th Initiate) when the
                                            > 12th or 13th apprentice, Klemp, booted his Master. And,
                                            > Gail's dream of Paul selecting Darwin was good enough
                                            > for the Board of ECKANKAR back in 1971 wasn't it! I, also,
                                            > guess that Gail's dream was good enough for Rebazar too!
                                            >
                                            > Darwin's mistake, other than trusting Klemp, was not to
                                            > point out that he, the FULL Mahanta, was always the highest
                                            > source of authority and power within ECKANKAR and that
                                            > Klemp was not 'fully-cooked' and was being controlled by
                                            > the KAL. There is plenty of ECK material that would have
                                            > backed this claim up in court.
                                            >
                                            > On Another Note: It is obvious that Twitchell Did Not
                                            > meet Rebazar 'on his Second trip to India in 1951'
                                            > (as Klemp claims in the PT info on ECKANKAR.org)
                                            > since PT Never Met Sudar Singh 'on his first trip in
                                            > 1935' at age 27. [PT was born in 1908 according to
                                            > the copyright page of the ShariYat Books 1&2]
                                            >
                                            > However, IF Twitchell had met RT, prior to even 1965,
                                            > and was initiated by him (instead of LEM SUDAR SINGH
                                            > which doesn't make sense) Why did Twitchell send
                                            > THE TIGER'S FANG manuscript to KIRPAL SINGH instead
                                            > of to REBAZAR TARZS?! Kirpal Singh was the Master of
                                            > Ruhani Satsang (a sect of Radhasoami). Actually, Kirpal
                                            > was Paul's real Master from 1955-1965. Therefore,
                                            > the Initiation by Rebazar and those claimed years of
                                            > instruction under RT didn't really take place! These
                                            > were just more 'exaggerations' and 'twisting of facts.'
                                            >
                                            > Or, on the other hand... the incredible Rebazar lives in a
                                            > hut high in the Hindu Kush mountains and, therefore, has
                                            > no mailing address to send the manuscript to! LOL! BUT,
                                            > why then couldn't PT just hand the manuscript to RT for
                                            > proof-reading, editing, and approval on one of those
                                            > nightly visits? Why did Kirpal (according to Klemp on
                                            > ECKANKAR. org) have The Tiger's Fang manuscript sent
                                            > to him if PT was Not his Chela and, instead, Rebazar's Chela?!
                                            > Why does Klemp mention Kirpal's name 15 times and Sudar's
                                            > name 6 times in the Twitchell info on ECKANKAR.org as well?
                                            > I guess ECKists just aren't really good at connecting the
                                            > dots and that's another reason as to why Klemp skips back
                                            > and forth so much. Afterall, the age 27 in 1935 and the
                                            > 1908 birthdate were not listed all together!
                                            >
                                            > But, how is it, also, that Rebazar is supposed to, still, be
                                            > living in a 500 year old physical body? Probably, because
                                            > only a "Living Master" can pass the Rod to another!
                                            > Apparently, then, Rebazar 'the torchbearer of ECKANKAR
                                            > in the Lower Worlds' also handed the Rod of ECK Power
                                            > to Darwin. Therefore, Rebazar Tarzs handed the Rod of
                                            > ECK Power to both Paul Twitchell and to Darwin Gross
                                            > while Darwin Gross handed the Rod of ECK Power to Harold
                                            > Klemp. However, Rebazar doesn't really exist in the first
                                            > place, except, in fiction!
                                            >
                                            > If Rebazar were real I can see why HK (Wah-Zoo) felt
                                            > slighted and turned on Darwin Gross (Dap Ren) like a
                                            > mad doG. Klemp had the ROD handed to him by (now?)
                                            > a Black Magician instead of by Rebazar. Or, Darwin tuned
                                            > to the Dark Side of the ECK Force AFTER 1981 since he
                                            > wouldn't have been permitted to handle the ROD if he had
                                            > fallen from Grace. In any case, according to ECKANKAR
                                            > lore/dogma, REBAZAR TARZS Did Not and Could Not have
                                            > handed the Rod of ECK Power to Klemp, or met with Twitchell
                                            > on a 'Second' visit to India in 1951.
                                            >
                                            > What's all of this mean for the ECKist? WAKE UP! It means
                                            > that the Truth is something that they don't want to hear
                                            > because they can't handle the Truth! It's way too comfortable
                                            > and convenient to accept, imagine, and follow along with
                                            > their head in the sand. This is what many ECKists were use
                                            > to doing in other religions before they thought they had
                                            > found the ECKANKAR substitute for religion.
                                            >
                                            > However,HK changed ECKANKAR back into a religion
                                            > again right under our noses! [Klemp even quotes from
                                            > the even more distorted King James version of the
                                            > Christian Bible!] But, at the time, we were told that the
                                            > change to the RELIGION of the light and sound of GOD,
                                            > the Worship Services, Choirs and singing ECK songs,
                                            > Amazing HU (Grace), the RESA Hierarchy, Guidelines,
                                            > etc. was for our own good! Now, it appears, that all along
                                            > the changes were really for having more control and power
                                            > over the org. and for the good of Harold and Joan! Happy
                                            > trails ECKies! Those 'Coins of Gold' created by PT were
                                            > really just coins of Fool's Gold! The view outside of the
                                            > ECKANKAR box is much clearer than ever!
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Prometheus
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > etznab wrote:
                                            > I thought about Darwin. But I don't know. Consider the following:
                                            >
                                            > "According to testimony taken on May 31st, 1984, the former Living
                                            > ECK Master, Darwin Gross, reportedly claimed that in January, 1983,
                                            > his successor, Harold Klemp, was asked to step aside. Reportedly, it
                                            > was Rebazar Tarz and Yaubl Sacabi who asked Harold Klemp to step
                                            > aside."
                                            > >
                                            > Confessions of a God Seeker, A Journey to Higher Consciousness,
                                            > p. 239
                                            > >
                                            > If I remember this correctly, it was an Eckist who had a dream that
                                            > Darwin Gross later tried to use for a defense. So it wasn't like Rebazar
                                            > Tarzs and Yaubl Sacabi spoke directly to Darwin. Is this the correct
                                            > information?
                                            > >
                                            > Yes, I thought about Darwin. Need I say more?
                                            > >
                                            > Etznab
                                            >
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