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Re: Some of My Thoughts on Conspiracy Theories, Etc.

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  • prometheus_973
    Hi Ingrid, Yes, Icke the pseudo expert and pseudo spiritual master spreads fear and hatred through lies and misinformation much like those infamous figures in
    Message 1 of 15 , Jul 2, 2005
      Hi Ingrid,
      Yes, Icke the pseudo expert and pseudo spiritual master spreads fear
      and hatred through lies and misinformation much like those infamous
      figures in history. Icke doesn't even believe that the Holocaust
      took place! It is interesting how these power and money hungry con
      artists find just the right scam in order to pull in the suckers.
      Did you ever see the movie "The Sting" with Paul Newman and Robert
      Redford? This movie is a blueprint to show how easy it is to trick
      foolish, greedy, and egotistical people with partial truth.

      On another note: Yes, conspiracies have always existed... they too
      are part of the "testing ground for Soul" concept. However, this
      also means that we (Souls) have all lived before which means that we
      have been of different gender, race, religion, etc. , and have been
      both victim and persecutor.

      Betty, over on HCS, makes the statement that "everything is
      spiritual" as a means to justify her and Mario's constant ramblings
      of conspiracy/"spiritual" topics. If one sees life as a testing
      ground for Soul then she is correct, in part, that everything is
      spiritual. However, there is much more to this statement than she is
      apparently capable of seeing. Yes, there is negative and positive
      and something inbetween. But why chose or promote a negative con and
      its fear and hatred spin over the opposite? Where are the spiritual
      lessons to be learned and the responsibility to yourself and to
      others in finding real truth and sharing it (isn't the glass half
      full?). Apparently, Betty and Mario used no caution or
      discrimination in finding their new beliefs. Then again, according
      to their past BB posts, they bought into Icke and others while still
      being happily deluded members of Eckankar (pre-"Confessions"). What
      Icke presents, especially, with the "Protocols" (Illumanati) has
      been proven to be false by real experts. Therefore, how can one
      trust anything else Icke has to say when using any other "facts." As
      I have said before... Icke inundates his readers with so much
      information that most just accept it all as factual. After all, why
      question the words of an expert, or for that matter of a master?

      Of course, Ford has to take some responsibility, as well, for
      allowing the B&M crap to be posted constantly on his BBs. But, more
      on that in another post.

      Prometheus




      >>Yes, talk is cheap! Just look at Klemp! However, Icke is also a
      liar just like his "TRANCE" buddies (Mark Phillips and Cathy
      O'Brien). The self created trap is believing that these people are
      not only being truthful, but that they also impart a "spiritual"
      message. I guess that Hitler and Stalin had spiritual messages too!
      Right judgment and critical thinking have been shut out by
      these "true believers" who ego's are "outside of the box." They have
      accepted an unoriginal, negative, and fictional mixture of partial
      truths to form a new secular religion with Ickeists like themselves.

      > You make a very good point here, Prometheus. Hitler had in fact a
      spiritual message, at least that was his point of view. He was in
      fact very interested in spiritual matters and knew a lot about it.
      He knew that the Swastika was a very powerful sign - he just turned
      it around, and thus lost its positive power and turned into a
      negative sign. He knew exactly about how to turn things around to
      influence, brainwash and harm people. Today, we always wonder how
      this could have happened, that so many people believed in Hitler -
      but in fact, it's happening here and now as well. The faith we put
      in so-called spiritual leaders and people like Icke and the
      Tranceformation people - it's the same faith Hitler's followers put
      in Hitler. The difference is only that those people obviously don't
      have as much power as Hitler had,and are not as dangerous as Hitler
      was. But if you strip everything and leave just the faith, then
      that's it.

      > Ingrid
    • ctecvie
      Hello Truthdecider, your last post is so powerful, and I don t really know what to say at this point. Just let me tell you that I m so glad to have you on ESA.
      Message 2 of 15 , Jul 4, 2005
        Hello Truthdecider,

        your last post is so powerful, and I don't really know what to say
        at this point. Just let me tell you that I'm so glad to have you on
        ESA. I perceive you as a very kind and thoughtful man, and even if I
        don't know you at all, I like you very much.

        Thank you for your openness, this is very courageous of you. I will
        have to think and feel a bit more about what you said in your post,
        and then come back to you.

        All the best,
        Ingrid

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "truthdecider"
        <truthdecider@y...> wrote:
        > Hello Prometheus, Ingrid, and Mish,
        >
        > Mish, forgive me, but at this point, my responding to the points
        that
        > you made in your David Icke post would be rather pointless, as my
        > thinking on this whole thing has shifted dramatically, as you will
        see.
        >
        > I was away the past 2 days enjoying some wonderful time with
        family,
        > and a huge Fourth of July party. However, in spite of all the fun
        and
        > festivities, it has been occurring to me, much to my dismay, that I
        > still seem to have a tremendous aptitude for extreme self-
        deception. I
        > mean, I know who I am, on some very deep and fundamental levels,
        but I
        > still seem to have an almost amazing knack for getting sucked into
        > "spiritual" kinds of teachings that, temporarily anyway, give me
        > something to hold onto that fills a very large black hole of self
        hate
        > that still exists inside of me, which has been there since early
        > childhood.
        >
        > I lived through some pretty heavy emotional and physical abuse
        during
        > very early childhood. This damaged my formative years quite
        severely,
        > and led to drug abuse and addiction throughout adolescence and my
        teen
        > years. What completely pulled me out of this was Eastern religion,
        > martial arts, and, by far, most extensively, Eckankar. Connecting
        with
        > the light and sound, and the Eck masters healed me in ways that I
        am
        > still eternally grateful for.
        >
        > However, after enjoying an all to brief period in my early
        twenties,
        > when, for the first time in my life, I truly felt healed and whole,
        > and full of genuine self love, the whole Darwin thing came crashing
        > down around me. This was, of course, in the early 1980s.
        >
        > I never really was able to find that same center inside myself with
        > the Eck teachings that I had found for that brief time after the
        whole
        > Darwin crash happened. I trudged along as best I could, and
        constantly
        > tried to find that again. Life was still much, much better than it
        > had been before I first found Eckankar, but I had lost that deep
        sense
        > of balance and self love that I had so enjoyed for that brief time.
        >
        > Then in the late 80s, I encountered first hand, very direct,
        dramatic,
        > experiences with UFOs, and then, subsequently, encounters with very
        > nasty people that wished to silence me from discussing these
        > experiences, or asking too many questions about them. This was in
        no
        > way self-delusional, as these kinds of things were experienced by
        > literally hundreds of people in New York's Hudson Valley area
        during
        > this time. There are 3 books written about all of this that are
        > available on Amazon.com, but all of this is another story for
        another
        > post at some other time.
        >
        > In any event, it was these experiences that led to reading books by
        > David Icke, and a host of others, to try and understand just what
        the
        > hell was going on with all of this stuff. It really shook to me to
        my
        > core to learn first hand that there really are technologies that go
        > way beyond the laws of physics as we know them, and more
        importantly,
        > that I really didn't have a lot of the freedoms that I had been
        led to
        > believe that I had as an American citizen. That there were really
        > people out there that would threaten to kill me if I would not
        shut up
        > about what I had seen. If you haven't lived through these kinds of
        > experiences, then it is very difficult to understand what I really
        > mean, and what this does to you.
        >
        > So I guess my question for you guys is: What the hell IS out
        there, in
        > your opinion, that you can trust and work with, in addition to your
        > own higher selves, that is of a spiritual nature? I mean, you all
        seem
        > to be aware that higher spiritual realities do exist, and that
        there
        > is some truth to the fact that our government is not what it is
        > cracked up to be, which I certainly know first hand. But if
        Cassiopia,
        > David Icke, HCS, Eckankar, Michael Owens, and all the rest are just
        > more lies and traps, than what is out there that is real and
        > trustworthy? Because, very sadly, even though I KNOW I AM SOUL on
        some
        > very deep level, my mind just doesn't seem to be able to learn to
        let
        > me love myself enough to not need some sort of external support
        system
        > at this point.
        >
        > I know that I am not the mind, and that I should be able to just
        not
        > be affected by it, and just move past it, and trust the real me,
        Soul.
        > However, the self-hate engrams that are still part of the mind seem
        > way too strong at times to let me do this.
        >
        > I have tried going to counseling on three separate occasions
        within
        > the last few years, but that has not worked out at all. The kind of
        > issues that I bring to the table seem to be way outside the scope
        of
        > what these therapists know how to deal with. I have literally blown
        > them all away, in one way or another, and I end up needing to stop
        going.
        >
        > I am at a loss, and I feel very frustrated and tired at this
        point. I
        > really don't know where to turn anymore. I hope that someone out
        there
        > can say something that will help guide me in the right direction.
        >
        >
        > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
        > <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
        > > Hi Ingrid,
        > > Yes, Icke the pseudo expert and pseudo spiritual master spreads
        fear
        > > and hatred through lies and misinformation much like those
        infamous
        > > figures in history. Icke doesn't even believe that the Holocaust
        > > took place! It is interesting how these power and money hungry
        con
        > > artists find just the right scam in order to pull in the
        suckers.
        > > Did you ever see the movie "The Sting" with Paul Newman and
        Robert
        > > Redford? This movie is a blueprint to show how easy it is to
        trick
        > > foolish, greedy, and egotistical people with partial truth.
        > >
        > > On another note: Yes, conspiracies have always existed... they
        too
        > > are part of the "testing ground for Soul" concept. However, this
        > > also means that we (Souls) have all lived before which means
        that we
        > > have been of different gender, race, religion, etc. , and have
        been
        > > both victim and persecutor.
        > >
        > > Betty, over on HCS, makes the statement that "everything is
        > > spiritual" as a means to justify her and Mario's constant
        ramblings
        > > of conspiracy/"spiritual" topics. If one sees life as a testing
        > > ground for Soul then she is correct, in part, that everything is
        > > spiritual. However, there is much more to this statement than
        she is
        > > apparently capable of seeing. Yes, there is negative and
        positive
        > > and something inbetween. But why chose or promote a negative con
        and
        > > its fear and hatred spin over the opposite? Where are the
        spiritual
        > > lessons to be learned and the responsibility to yourself and to
        > > others in finding real truth and sharing it (isn't the glass
        half
        > > full?). Apparently, Betty and Mario used no caution or
        > > discrimination in finding their new beliefs. Then again,
        according
        > > to their past BB posts, they bought into Icke and others while
        still
        > > being happily deluded members of Eckankar (pre-"Confessions").
        What
        > > Icke presents, especially, with the "Protocols" (Illumanati) has
        > > been proven to be false by real experts. Therefore, how can one
        > > trust anything else Icke has to say when using any
        other "facts." As
        > > I have said before... Icke inundates his readers with so much
        > > information that most just accept it all as factual. After all,
        why
        > > question the words of an expert, or for that matter of a master?
        > >
        > > Of course, Ford has to take some responsibility, as well, for
        > > allowing the B&M crap to be posted constantly on his BBs. But,
        more
        > > on that in another post.
        > >
        > > Prometheus
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > >>Yes, talk is cheap! Just look at Klemp! However, Icke is also
        a
        > > liar just like his "TRANCE" buddies (Mark Phillips and Cathy
        > > O'Brien). The self created trap is believing that these people
        are
        > > not only being truthful, but that they also impart a "spiritual"
        > > message. I guess that Hitler and Stalin had spiritual messages
        too!
        > > Right judgment and critical thinking have been shut out by
        > > these "true believers" who ego's are "outside of the box." They
        have
        > > accepted an unoriginal, negative, and fictional mixture of
        partial
        > > truths to form a new secular religion with Ickeists like
        themselves.
        > >
        > > > You make a very good point here, Prometheus. Hitler had in
        fact a
        > > spiritual message, at least that was his point of view. He was
        in
        > > fact very interested in spiritual matters and knew a lot about
        it.
        > > He knew that the Swastika was a very powerful sign - he just
        turned
        > > it around, and thus lost its positive power and turned into a
        > > negative sign. He knew exactly about how to turn things around
        to
        > > influence, brainwash and harm people. Today, we always wonder
        how
        > > this could have happened, that so many people believed in
        Hitler -
        > > but in fact, it's happening here and now as well. The faith we
        put
        > > in so-called spiritual leaders and people like Icke and the
        > > Tranceformation people - it's the same faith Hitler's followers
        put
        > > in Hitler. The difference is only that those people obviously
        don't
        > > have as much power as Hitler had,and are not as dangerous as
        Hitler
        > > was. But if you strip everything and leave just the faith, then
        > > that's it.
        > >
        > > > Ingrid
      • Freefrom
        Truth Decider, I can very much identify with what you say about the black hole of self-hate and how this affects our ability to steer clear of different
        Message 3 of 15 , Jul 4, 2005
          Truth Decider,

          I can very much identify with what you say about the "black hole
          of self-hate" and how this affects our ability to steer clear of
          different KULTs etc.. When I get into these states I find that
          sometimes there is a kind of double bind of hating yourself for hating
          yourself. It may sound ridiculous, but for me it can be a real
          dillemma. THis is just my experience, but I have noticed that once I
          recognize that I am doing this and that I am repeating a pattern that
          I too was forced into from childhood, then there is a sense of
          spaciousness as I realize that I can open to all of my feelings. This
          in itself promotes a sense of feeling better, well being. We don't
          really have to prove ourselves to anyone, unless we are claiming to be
          a LEM or something like that. :-)

          Best

          Freefrom

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "truthdecider"
          <truthdecider@y...> wrote:
          > Hello Prometheus, Ingrid, and Mish,
          >
          > Mish, forgive me, but at this point, my responding to the points that
          > you made in your David Icke post would be rather pointless, as my
          > thinking on this whole thing has shifted dramatically, as you will see.
          >
          > I was away the past 2 days enjoying some wonderful time with family,
          > and a huge Fourth of July party. However, in spite of all the fun and
          > festivities, it has been occurring to me, much to my dismay, that I
          > still seem to have a tremendous aptitude for extreme self-deception. I
          > mean, I know who I am, on some very deep and fundamental levels, but I
          > still seem to have an almost amazing knack for getting sucked into
          > "spiritual" kinds of teachings that, temporarily anyway, give me
          > something to hold onto that fills a very large black hole of self hate
          > that still exists inside of me, which has been there since early
          > childhood.
          >
          > I lived through some pretty heavy emotional and physical abuse during
          > very early childhood. This damaged my formative years quite severely,
          > and led to drug abuse and addiction throughout adolescence and my teen
          > years. What completely pulled me out of this was Eastern religion,
          > martial arts, and, by far, most extensively, Eckankar. Connecting with
          > the light and sound, and the Eck masters healed me in ways that I am
          > still eternally grateful for.
          >
          > However, after enjoying an all to brief period in my early twenties,
          > when, for the first time in my life, I truly felt healed and whole,
          > and full of genuine self love, the whole Darwin thing came crashing
          > down around me. This was, of course, in the early 1980s.
          >
          > I never really was able to find that same center inside myself with
          > the Eck teachings that I had found for that brief time after the whole
          > Darwin crash happened. I trudged along as best I could, and constantly
          > tried to find that again. Life was still much, much better than it
          > had been before I first found Eckankar, but I had lost that deep sense
          > of balance and self love that I had so enjoyed for that brief time.
          >
          > Then in the late 80s, I encountered first hand, very direct, dramatic,
          > experiences with UFOs, and then, subsequently, encounters with very
          > nasty people that wished to silence me from discussing these
          > experiences, or asking too many questions about them. This was in no
          > way self-delusional, as these kinds of things were experienced by
          > literally hundreds of people in New York's Hudson Valley area during
          > this time. There are 3 books written about all of this that are
          > available on Amazon.com, but all of this is another story for another
          > post at some other time.
          >
          > In any event, it was these experiences that led to reading books by
          > David Icke, and a host of others, to try and understand just what the
          > hell was going on with all of this stuff. It really shook to me to my
          > core to learn first hand that there really are technologies that go
          > way beyond the laws of physics as we know them, and more importantly,
          > that I really didn't have a lot of the freedoms that I had been led to
          > believe that I had as an American citizen. That there were really
          > people out there that would threaten to kill me if I would not shut up
          > about what I had seen. If you haven't lived through these kinds of
          > experiences, then it is very difficult to understand what I really
          > mean, and what this does to you.
          >
          > So I guess my question for you guys is: What the hell IS out there, in
          > your opinion, that you can trust and work with, in addition to your
          > own higher selves, that is of a spiritual nature? I mean, you all seem
          > to be aware that higher spiritual realities do exist, and that there
          > is some truth to the fact that our government is not what it is
          > cracked up to be, which I certainly know first hand. But if Cassiopia,
          > David Icke, HCS, Eckankar, Michael Owens, and all the rest are just
          > more lies and traps, than what is out there that is real and
          > trustworthy? Because, very sadly, even though I KNOW I AM SOUL on some
          > very deep level, my mind just doesn't seem to be able to learn to let
          > me love myself enough to not need some sort of external support system
          > at this point.
          >
          > I know that I am not the mind, and that I should be able to just not
          > be affected by it, and just move past it, and trust the real me, Soul.
          > However, the self-hate engrams that are still part of the mind seem
          > way too strong at times to let me do this.
          >
          > I have tried going to counseling on three separate occasions within
          > the last few years, but that has not worked out at all. The kind of
          > issues that I bring to the table seem to be way outside the scope of
          > what these therapists know how to deal with. I have literally blown
          > them all away, in one way or another, and I end up needing to stop
          going.
          >
          > I am at a loss, and I feel very frustrated and tired at this point. I
          > really don't know where to turn anymore. I hope that someone out there
          > can say something that will help guide me in the right direction.
          >
          >
          > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
          > <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
          > > Hi Ingrid,
          > > Yes, Icke the pseudo expert and pseudo spiritual master spreads fear
          > > and hatred through lies and misinformation much like those infamous
          > > figures in history. Icke doesn't even believe that the Holocaust
          > > took place! It is interesting how these power and money hungry con
          > > artists find just the right scam in order to pull in the suckers.
          > > Did you ever see the movie "The Sting" with Paul Newman and Robert
          > > Redford? This movie is a blueprint to show how easy it is to trick
          > > foolish, greedy, and egotistical people with partial truth.
          > >
          > > On another note: Yes, conspiracies have always existed... they too
          > > are part of the "testing ground for Soul" concept. However, this
          > > also means that we (Souls) have all lived before which means that we
          > > have been of different gender, race, religion, etc. , and have been
          > > both victim and persecutor.
          > >
          > > Betty, over on HCS, makes the statement that "everything is
          > > spiritual" as a means to justify her and Mario's constant ramblings
          > > of conspiracy/"spiritual" topics. If one sees life as a testing
          > > ground for Soul then she is correct, in part, that everything is
          > > spiritual. However, there is much more to this statement than she is
          > > apparently capable of seeing. Yes, there is negative and positive
          > > and something inbetween. But why chose or promote a negative con and
          > > its fear and hatred spin over the opposite? Where are the spiritual
          > > lessons to be learned and the responsibility to yourself and to
          > > others in finding real truth and sharing it (isn't the glass half
          > > full?). Apparently, Betty and Mario used no caution or
          > > discrimination in finding their new beliefs. Then again, according
          > > to their past BB posts, they bought into Icke and others while still
          > > being happily deluded members of Eckankar (pre-"Confessions"). What
          > > Icke presents, especially, with the "Protocols" (Illumanati) has
          > > been proven to be false by real experts. Therefore, how can one
          > > trust anything else Icke has to say when using any other "facts." As
          > > I have said before... Icke inundates his readers with so much
          > > information that most just accept it all as factual. After all, why
          > > question the words of an expert, or for that matter of a master?
          > >
          > > Of course, Ford has to take some responsibility, as well, for
          > > allowing the B&M crap to be posted constantly on his BBs. But, more
          > > on that in another post.
          > >
          > > Prometheus
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > >>Yes, talk is cheap! Just look at Klemp! However, Icke is also a
          > > liar just like his "TRANCE" buddies (Mark Phillips and Cathy
          > > O'Brien). The self created trap is believing that these people are
          > > not only being truthful, but that they also impart a "spiritual"
          > > message. I guess that Hitler and Stalin had spiritual messages too!
          > > Right judgment and critical thinking have been shut out by
          > > these "true believers" who ego's are "outside of the box." They have
          > > accepted an unoriginal, negative, and fictional mixture of partial
          > > truths to form a new secular religion with Ickeists like themselves.
          > >
          > > > You make a very good point here, Prometheus. Hitler had in fact a
          > > spiritual message, at least that was his point of view. He was in
          > > fact very interested in spiritual matters and knew a lot about it.
          > > He knew that the Swastika was a very powerful sign - he just turned
          > > it around, and thus lost its positive power and turned into a
          > > negative sign. He knew exactly about how to turn things around to
          > > influence, brainwash and harm people. Today, we always wonder how
          > > this could have happened, that so many people believed in Hitler -
          > > but in fact, it's happening here and now as well. The faith we put
          > > in so-called spiritual leaders and people like Icke and the
          > > Tranceformation people - it's the same faith Hitler's followers put
          > > in Hitler. The difference is only that those people obviously don't
          > > have as much power as Hitler had,and are not as dangerous as Hitler
          > > was. But if you strip everything and leave just the faith, then
          > > that's it.
          > >
          > > > Ingrid
        • mishmisha9
          Hi, Truthdecider! I want to respond to your post, but I can assure you that I can t answer your questons--that s a certain! : ) ... that ... see. This is just
          Message 4 of 15 , Jul 5, 2005
            Hi, Truthdecider!

            I want to respond to your post, but I can assure you that I can't
            answer your questons--that's a certain! : )

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "truthdecider"
            <truthdecider@y...> wrote:
            > Hello Prometheus, Ingrid, and Mish,
            >
            > Mish, forgive me, but at this point, my responding to the points
            that
            > you made in your David Icke post would be rather pointless, as my
            > thinking on this whole thing has shifted dramatically, as you will
            see.

            This is just as well, because I don't know if I really wanted to go
            into more discussion on Icke--I needed a break! : ) I can see in
            your post here that you have been thinking a lot which is good. It's
            funny how one can see something one way, and then after some new
            thought, see it another. Ever shifting and normal way to look at
            life and what is going on. I'm not certain if or when we ever get it
            all figured out.

            >
            > I was away the past 2 days enjoying some wonderful time with
            family,
            > and a huge Fourth of July party. However, in spite of all the fun
            and
            > festivities, it has been occurring to me, much to my dismay, that I
            > still seem to have a tremendous aptitude for extreme self-
            deception. I
            > mean, I know who I am, on some very deep and fundamental levels,
            but I
            > still seem to have an almost amazing knack for getting sucked into
            > "spiritual" kinds of teachings that, temporarily anyway, give me
            > something to hold onto that fills a very large black hole of self
            hate
            > that still exists inside of me, which has been there since early
            > childhood.

            You are a truth seeker so of course you are checking out all kinds
            of spiritual teachings. I don't think that is a bad thing--more
            people should be into the spiritual. It is the most important aspect
            of our life.

            >
            > I lived through some pretty heavy emotional and physical abuse
            during
            > very early childhood. This damaged my formative years quite
            severely,
            > and led to drug abuse and addiction throughout adolescence and my
            teen
            > years. What completely pulled me out of this was Eastern religion,
            > martial arts, and, by far, most extensively, Eckankar. Connecting
            with
            > the light and sound, and the Eck masters healed me in ways that I
            am
            > still eternally grateful for.

            I'm glad that Eckankar could help you in this regard. I have heard
            many people express this as well. I feel so sad when I hear about
            people who were abused as children, and I wish there were more
            protection for children in our society.


            >
            > However, after enjoying an all to brief period in my early
            twenties,
            > when, for the first time in my life, I truly felt healed and whole,
            > and full of genuine self love, the whole Darwin thing came crashing
            > down around me. This was, of course, in the early 1980s.
            >
            > I never really was able to find that same center inside myself with
            > the Eck teachings that I had found for that brief time after the
            whole
            > Darwin crash happened. I trudged along as best I could, and
            constantly
            > tried to find that again. Life was still much, much better than it
            > had been before I first found Eckankar, but I had lost that deep
            sense
            > of balance and self love that I had so enjoyed for that brief time.
            >

            It was because of the doubt you developed early on in the org., I
            believe. Many people were not troubled by the Darwin/Harold event
            and just kept believing. Your intuitive senses were aware of the red
            flags here, it seems. You still wanted to believe because the belief
            had helped to balance you, and perhaps you feared going back to
            square one if you let go of the belief.


            > Then in the late 80s, I encountered first hand, very direct,
            dramatic,
            > experiences with UFOs, and then, subsequently, encounters with very
            > nasty people that wished to silence me from discussing these
            > experiences, or asking too many questions about them. This was in
            no
            > way self-delusional, as these kinds of things were experienced by
            > literally hundreds of people in New York's Hudson Valley area
            during
            > this time. There are 3 books written about all of this that are
            > available on Amazon.com, but all of this is another story for
            another
            > post at some other time.

            I am looking forward to hear about this experience.


            >
            > In any event, it was these experiences that led to reading books by
            > David Icke, and a host of others, to try and understand just what
            the
            > hell was going on with all of this stuff. It really shook to me to
            my
            > core to learn first hand that there really are technologies that go
            > way beyond the laws of physics as we know them, and more
            importantly,
            > that I really didn't have a lot of the freedoms that I had been
            led to
            > believe that I had as an American citizen. That there were really
            > people out there that would threaten to kill me if I would not
            shut up
            > about what I had seen. If you haven't lived through these kinds of
            > experiences, then it is very difficult to understand what I really
            > mean, and what this does to you.

            I majored in history/government in college, and learned how most
            people do not understand what their real right are, or the lack of
            rights! How government works, in other words.


            >
            > So I guess my question for you guys is: What the hell IS out
            there, in
            > your opinion, that you can trust and work with, in addition to your
            > own higher selves, that is of a spiritual nature? I mean, you all
            seem
            > to be aware that higher spiritual realities do exist, and that
            there
            > is some truth to the fact that our government is not what it is
            > cracked up to be, which I certainly know first hand. But if
            Cassiopia,
            > David Icke, HCS, Eckankar, Michael Owens, and all the rest are just
            > more lies and traps, than what is out there that is real and
            > trustworthy?

            Truthdecider, the truth, as I see it, is what you perceive to be the
            truth. In other words, it is not other people's spins but what you
            are able to decipher and learn. If you are an honest individual,
            which I think you are, you should be able to trust your own beliefs--
            until they are no longer valid for you, that is. You don't need
            others to tell you what to think. Will you make mistakes or be
            mistaken? Of course, but you will be on the right course in finding
            the spiritual truths you are looking for. So, what is out there for
            you to believe in--it's you!

            Because, very sadly, even though I KNOW I AM SOUL on some
            > very deep level, my mind just doesn't seem to be able to learn to
            let
            > me love myself enough to not need some sort of external support
            system
            > at this point.
            >
            > I know that I am not the mind, and that I should be able to just
            not
            > be affected by it, and just move past it, and trust the real me,
            Soul.
            > However, the self-hate engrams that are still part of the mind seem
            > way too strong at times to let me do this.
            >
            > I have tried going to counseling on three separate occasions
            within
            > the last few years, but that has not worked out at all. The kind of
            > issues that I bring to the table seem to be way outside the scope
            of
            > what these therapists know how to deal with. I have literally blown
            > them all away, in one way or another, and I end up needing to stop
            going.
            >


            It is good that you recognize this problem and that you are trying
            to find solution to it. I wish I could help you, beyond telling you
            that you are a very kind, loving and valuable Soul!

            > I am at a loss, and I feel very frustrated and tired at this
            point. I
            > really don't know where to turn anymore. I hope that someone out
            there
            > can say something that will help guide me in the right direction.

            I'm glad that others have commented and offered some suggestions for
            you. I hope your frustration and fatigue are short-lived. I do know
            that laughter and fun is good therapy, especially when one is
            feeling down. Funny movies, joyful times with friends and family.
            And then there are people here open to discussion! : )


            Sorry I can't offer more than this. Your question, even though a
            good one, is difficult! I like your posts!

            Mish
          • l2eigh
            ... I feel very frustrated and tired at this point. I ... Hi Truthdecider: When I started posting on HCS/TS last year it was as R. After a couple of months I
            Message 5 of 15 , Jul 6, 2005
              > So I guess my question for you guys is: What the hell IS out there, in
              > your opinion, that you can trust and work with, > I am at a loss, and
              I feel very frustrated and tired at this point. I
              > really don't know where to turn anymore. I hope that someone out there
              > can say something that will help guide me in the right direction.


              Hi Truthdecider:
              When I started posting on HCS/TS last year it was as R.
              After a couple of months I quit because there was nothing else to say.
              Then in January, Garland Peck posted something about Neanderthal Man
              and why Lemuria/Atlantis was bogus so I got interested again and posted
              this time in my first and last name Ralph Griffith, so... we "know" one
              another.
              I'm just responding to a couple of sentences from your
              post. Because (like the problem you outline) you can't bring it all
              inside and get an answer to it, find "the answers". You HAVE to get
              back to the core(that rocky road)and work with that. Letting all of
              these other things go. I'd go back to therapy and talk about your
              childhood problems (only) (if that's what everything is wound around).
              "What the hell is there out there to work with?" (as
              you say). There isn't anything. That's mistake one. It just widens and
              exascerbates the problem with your core, which is where the problem is
              and what the problem is with. You've GOT to find it again, resolve the
              rocky road of integrity for this small thing within you and DON'T let
              anything into it again. That's how this, all this thing, starts.
              There's the core (yours) and "everything else". And when you try to
              throw your arms around "everything else" and bring it into the core to
              resolve it, understand it (whatever)that's when everything goes wrong.
              Widening and expanding it just makes it worse. You may have delusional
              success at learning "higher stuff" for a while but the consequences of
              bringing all the outside into your center eventually catches up.
              Don't get me wrong, I like everyone in this group a lot
              but the only thing anyone can do with groups like this, usenet groups,
              bulletin boards, or find on them is an opinion, what serves as truth
              for the person posting. The answer's not "out there". There is no
              answer like that. What you've got to do is get back in touch with the
              tiny core of reality within yourself which is probably going to mean
              you've got to let go of all this other stuff, everything else.
              I'm going through some heavy stuff myself, now so I've
              stayed out of this, as I sure have enough on my own plate. But what
              you've said in this post I'm responding to is pretty specific in a
              couple of sentences. So, I don't know if it helps, but do what you can,
              and leave all this other poo alone. It just increases your own
              traumatic stress. Don't you think?
            • ctecvie
              Hello Ralph, great that it s you!! :-) When I first saw the e-mail address, I thought of you, because you had posted as Igrif on the BBs as well.But then I
              Message 6 of 15 , Jul 6, 2005
                Hello Ralph,

                great that it's you!! :-) When I first saw the e-mail address, I
                thought of you, because you had posted as "Igrif" on the BBs as
                well.But then I dismissed this thought. I know of course that "R"
                and "Ralph Griffith" are one and the same. :-)

                So, I'm happy to have you here!
                Ingrid

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "l2eigh"
                <lgrif@m...> wrote:
                >
                > > So I guess my question for you guys is: What the hell IS out
                there, in
                > > your opinion, that you can trust and work with, > I am at a
                loss, and
                > I feel very frustrated and tired at this point. I
                > > really don't know where to turn anymore. I hope that someone out
                there
                > > can say something that will help guide me in the right direction.
                >
                >
                > Hi Truthdecider:
                > When I started posting on HCS/TS last year it was
                as R.
                > After a couple of months I quit because there was nothing else to
                say.
                > Then in January, Garland Peck posted something about Neanderthal
                Man
                > and why Lemuria/Atlantis was bogus so I got interested again and
                posted
                > this time in my first and last name Ralph Griffith, so...
                we "know" one
                > another.
                > I'm just responding to a couple of sentences from
                your
                > post. Because (like the problem you outline) you can't bring it
                all
                > inside and get an answer to it, find "the answers". You HAVE to
                get
                > back to the core(that rocky road)and work with that. Letting all
                of
                > these other things go. I'd go back to therapy and talk about your
                > childhood problems (only) (if that's what everything is wound
                around).
                > "What the hell is there out there to work with?"
                (as
                > you say). There isn't anything. That's mistake one. It just widens
                and
                > exascerbates the problem with your core, which is where the
                problem is
                > and what the problem is with. You've GOT to find it again, resolve
                the
                > rocky road of integrity for this small thing within you and DON'T
                let
                > anything into it again. That's how this, all this thing, starts.
                > There's the core (yours) and "everything else". And when you try
                to
                > throw your arms around "everything else" and bring it into the
                core to
                > resolve it, understand it (whatever)that's when everything goes
                wrong.
                > Widening and expanding it just makes it worse. You may have
                delusional
                > success at learning "higher stuff" for a while but the
                consequences of
                > bringing all the outside into your center eventually catches up.
                > Don't get me wrong, I like everyone in this group
                a lot
                > but the only thing anyone can do with groups like this, usenet
                groups,
                > bulletin boards, or find on them is an opinion, what serves as
                truth
                > for the person posting. The answer's not "out there". There is no
                > answer like that. What you've got to do is get back in touch with
                the
                > tiny core of reality within yourself which is probably going to
                mean
                > you've got to let go of all this other stuff, everything else.
                > I'm going through some heavy stuff myself, now so
                I've
                > stayed out of this, as I sure have enough on my own plate. But
                what
                > you've said in this post I'm responding to is pretty specific in a
                > couple of sentences. So, I don't know if it helps, but do what you
                can,
                > and leave all this other poo alone. It just increases your own
                > traumatic stress. Don't you think?
              • mishmisha9
                Nice post! And like Ingrid said, good you are here! ... there, in ... loss, and ... there ... as R. ... say. ... Man ... posted ... we know one ... your ...
                Message 7 of 15 , Jul 6, 2005
                  Nice post! And like Ingrid said, good you are here!


                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "l2eigh"
                  <lgrif@m...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > So I guess my question for you guys is: What the hell IS out
                  there, in
                  > > your opinion, that you can trust and work with, > I am at a
                  loss, and
                  > I feel very frustrated and tired at this point. I
                  > > really don't know where to turn anymore. I hope that someone out
                  there
                  > > can say something that will help guide me in the right direction.
                  >
                  >
                  > Hi Truthdecider:
                  > When I started posting on HCS/TS last year it was
                  as R.
                  > After a couple of months I quit because there was nothing else to
                  say.
                  > Then in January, Garland Peck posted something about Neanderthal
                  Man
                  > and why Lemuria/Atlantis was bogus so I got interested again and
                  posted
                  > this time in my first and last name Ralph Griffith, so...
                  we "know" one
                  > another.
                  > I'm just responding to a couple of sentences from
                  your
                  > post. Because (like the problem you outline) you can't bring it
                  all
                  > inside and get an answer to it, find "the answers". You HAVE to
                  get
                  > back to the core(that rocky road)and work with that. Letting all
                  of
                  > these other things go. I'd go back to therapy and talk about your
                  > childhood problems (only) (if that's what everything is wound
                  around).
                  > "What the hell is there out there to work with?"
                  (as
                  > you say). There isn't anything. That's mistake one. It just widens
                  and
                  > exascerbates the problem with your core, which is where the
                  problem is
                  > and what the problem is with. You've GOT to find it again, resolve
                  the
                  > rocky road of integrity for this small thing within you and DON'T
                  let
                  > anything into it again. That's how this, all this thing, starts.
                  > There's the core (yours) and "everything else". And when you try
                  to
                  > throw your arms around "everything else" and bring it into the
                  core to
                  > resolve it, understand it (whatever)that's when everything goes
                  wrong.
                  > Widening and expanding it just makes it worse. You may have
                  delusional
                  > success at learning "higher stuff" for a while but the
                  consequences of
                  > bringing all the outside into your center eventually catches up.
                  > Don't get me wrong, I like everyone in this group
                  a lot
                  > but the only thing anyone can do with groups like this, usenet
                  groups,
                  > bulletin boards, or find on them is an opinion, what serves as
                  truth
                  > for the person posting. The answer's not "out there". There is no
                  > answer like that. What you've got to do is get back in touch with
                  the
                  > tiny core of reality within yourself which is probably going to
                  mean
                  > you've got to let go of all this other stuff, everything else.
                  > I'm going through some heavy stuff myself, now so
                  I've
                  > stayed out of this, as I sure have enough on my own plate. But
                  what
                  > you've said in this post I'm responding to is pretty specific in a
                  > couple of sentences. So, I don't know if it helps, but do what you
                  can,
                  > and leave all this other poo alone. It just increases your own
                  > traumatic stress. Don't you think?
                • ctecvie
                  Hello Truthdecider, I think you have received excellent help from both the members here and on ET. Mish makes some very good points - I would have said many of
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jul 6, 2005
                    Hello Truthdecider,

                    I think you have received excellent help from both the members here
                    and on ET. Mish makes some very good points - I would have said many
                    of it, too! :-) So that leaves me just some short remarks.

                    To self-hate: A technique that helped me a lot was when I wrote a
                    letter to myself, imagining how it would have been perfect for me.
                    This was a very powerful tool and helped change my past a bit. Of
                    course I wasn't an abused child or anything like that, just had
                    the "normal difficult" childhood.

                    I can confirm that Bach remedies help a lot to overcome
                    psychological issues. I took them, too and they helped me greatly. I
                    am planning to have a horoscope done, just to know where I am at the
                    moment because it's an image of my personal progress.

                    Basically, you can choose any therapy or remedy you want, the most
                    important thing is to be in tune with the therapy or remedy you
                    choose. No matter if you choose Bach flowers, homeopathy, books that
                    deal with special questions and issues you have, kinesiology, NLP,
                    etc. etc. - just tune in and enjoy what you are doing. And when you
                    feel that you have got what you needed, then just move on, and no
                    regrets.

                    Concerning your spiritual search, please go on - it's so important
                    to continue. I don't see the paths you tried as failures - you
                    learned from each of them. If you are interested in people like
                    Icke - that's ok because he will teach you what you need. I think
                    it's much more important to move on when it's done. So please,
                    please, don't be angry with yourself because everything is in
                    perfect order. I can see that you are absolutely open to life and to
                    other perspectives, and that's wonderful.

                    Happy moving on ...
                    Ingrid
                  • prometheus_973
                    Hi Truthdecider, It seems like the responses and advice to this post of yours were very good. There are many resources that can be looked at to discover what
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jul 6, 2005
                      Hi Truthdecider,

                      It seems like the responses and advice to this post of yours were
                      very good. There are many resources that can be looked at to
                      discover what one needs in order to find one's own inner truth. Life
                      is difficult at various times for everyone, and sensitive people and
                      spiritual seekers have it much more difficult than those controlled
                      by their egos. But one should never give up, and never surrender!
                      And yet one must give up and surrender the things that prevent us
                      from growing and knowing who we truly are and why we are truly here.
                      One must also discover these truths on their own (mostly) and not
                      through another's truth. We can help each other, but only up to a
                      certain point. The responsibility to live, share and discover life's
                      mysteries and meaning lies without and within each Soul. In some
                      respects as long as one does no harm (at all) to others or to
                      oneself then that makes any experience into a spiritual lesson. You
                      must relax and enjoy the journey and not be in such a rush. There is
                      no race to God-Realization because God-Realization is in the clarity
                      of the moment. If one rushes around desparately looking here and
                      there then one can miss seeing the subtlies and changes that help us
                      see through the illusions. Yes it is all illusion, but there is also
                      the reality of Truth surrounding the illusion. The fact that you are
                      honest with yourself and have doubts and questions shows that your
                      ego is not so strong as to blind you from higher Truth. I think that
                      you are closer to answering your own questions than you think.

                      Prometheus


                      Truthdecider said:
                      >>So I guess my question for you guys is: What the hell IS out
                      there, in your opinion, that you can trust and work with, > I am at
                      a loss, and I feel very frustrated and tired at this point. I really
                      don't know where to turn anymore. I hope that someone out there can
                      say something that will help guide me in the right direction.
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