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Re: HCS discussion

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  • mishmisha9
    Hello, Ingrid! I read this on HCS and thought you showed a lot of courage to speak your truth. It seems as one also reads Mario s and Betty s replies to the
    Message 1 of 7 , Jul 2, 2005
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      Hello, Ingrid!

      I read this on HCS and thought you showed a lot of courage to speak
      your "truth." It seems as one also reads Mario's and Betty's replies
      to the complaints about their conspiracy "crap" postings on HCS that
      they will never stop. They totally disregard the requests and wishes
      of others, and do just as they please--forever! Perhaps, this is
      because they are so brainwashed in their beliefs and they will never
      be clear of it! It is really rather sad to see this in people.

      Thanks for posting this here.

      Mish

      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "ctecvie"
      <ctecvie@y...> wrote:
      > Hello all,
      >
      > I was asked to post the contribution I made to the HCS Bulletin
      > Board yesterday on ESA as well. So here it is - if anybody feels
      > like cross-posting or sharing it with others, you are of course
      free
      > to do so!
      >
      > Ingrid
      >
      > Subject: Spiritual focus
      >
      > Hello JCP,
      >
      > thank you so much for speaking up on this BB. I agree
      wholeheartedly
      > with what you say. I can't really imagine that ex-Eckists could
      last
      > very long on this BB if it's spiritual guidance that they are
      > seeking. In any case, had it been that way last year when I came
      to
      > the BBs, I wouldn't have gotten involved with HCS at all. It is
      not
      > spiritually uplifting for me for sure! I can't understand why
      people
      > here, after having experienced what Eckankar did to them, would
      fall
      > for even worse cults like Laura Knight and company. There have
      been
      > Eckists who have left Eckankar and who have gone back after a few
      > months - and I consider that kind of decision, albeit my
      > difficulties of understanding it, a whole lot better than falling
      > for Laura Knight. I think we all can do better than that!
      >
      > Mykel - thanks for your post, too. I sure miss, like you, Usually
      > Skeptical a lot, I liked his/her pointed analyses very much.
      Perhaps
      > he/she is one of the people who got fed up with all the conspiracy
      > crap as well - who knows?! I sure can understand that! And the
      > reason why Journey left is quite obvious to me - he/she was being
      > put down so often by Betty and Mario that in the end he/she must
      > have kind of given up. As far as I remember, Genti, another person
      > whom I thought was very spiritual, left because of too much
      > discussion about aliens and conspiracy. So, not many really
      > interesting people are remaining here - of course Ed Kusi is
      always
      > a highlight for me.
      >
      > Well, Betty - you didn't say anything really new in your last,
      once
      > again long-winded post. What strikes me again, as in all of your
      > posts, is that you seem to think you need to "educate"
      and "teach"
      > us "the Truth". Please remember that this is only YOUR truth and
      not
      > THE TRUTH. There are a lot of truths out there - and all of them
      are
      > personal and individual truths, backed up by our own and personal
      > experiences, nothing more and nothing less. Even if you are not
      > aware of it, you do talk down to the "uneducated" like I am one -
      > and I do feel offended. Please don't try to justify yourself - I
      > have heard it all, and it's of no use as this will be my only
      > statement on this topic.
      >
      > I'm really surprised to read that you are hardly more interested
      in
      > conspiracies than JCP is! What a bold statement! All I can
      perceive
      > is that you have hardly anything else to tell in your posts apart
      > from the endless talk about conspiracies. Ah yes, there is
      something
      > else - that Eckankar is still the highest path on earth. It seems
      to
      > me that, to this day, you have not really left Eckankar. Obviously
      I
      > do not agree with you at all - but this is my truth, just as the
      > statement you make is your truth again. Remember that Eckankar has
      > stolen a lot of wisdom, if not all of it, from other paths and
      from
      > life itself - no wonder it's "close to the truth" as you say
      because
      > that way, this is really very easy to do!
      >
      > I'm always wondering from where comes your absolute certitude
      about
      > how life works. I do think that you make valid statements which
      > apply to many of us, but again - it's your truth, it's how you
      > perceive life. This is very good. But please remember that there
      are
      > a lot of fairly intelligent people out here who have all something
      > to share - and I mean, to SHARE and not talk down to somebody - on
      > that. Unfortunately, there was not much sharing going on during
      the
      > last few weeks or months because Mario and you practically did all
      > the "sharing" - interspersed by some highlight posts from Ed Kusi
      as
      > mentioned above. I can say for me that I was discouraged from that
      > by the way this BB was running because Mario and you clearly are
      > dominating it. Fortunately, people braver than me spoke up
      > eventually - and that gives me hope that the BB will eventually
      > recover and provide the excellent spiritual and personal insights
      it
      > had when I first came here.
    • prometheus_973
      Betty s response on HCS is typically unoriginal, clueless and elitist. Hi Ingrid. Yes, I would say that Betty/Mario have a problem with ego, cognitive
      Message 2 of 7 , Jul 5, 2005
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        Betty's response on HCS is typically unoriginal, clueless and
        elitist. Hi Ingrid. Yes, I would say that Betty/Mario have a problem
        with ego, cognitive thinking, and paranoia. These conspiracy
        theorists also believe: in the 2nd gunman on the grassy knoll at the
        JFK assassination; the Apollo Moon Landings did Not really take
        place and were filmed on a movie set; that the planes involved in
        the 9/11 disaster had no windows, were not marked airliners, were
        flown by remote control by the U.S. government, and that the
        passengers were Not on the planes and are actually government
        employees who have been relocated! Wow! Tell that last one to their
        family members! It seems that Betty's/Mario's passion has replaced
        their common sense! Perhaps they miss being on pedestals when they
        were High Initiates (H.I.s) in Eckankar. Maybe they (ego) need to be
        seen as educators and heroes. Conspiracy theorists in general put
        together disparate facts tinged with paranoia.

        I found "comrade" Mario's post to be naturally in-your-face and
        arrogant, and I think he will come back again with more innuendos
        and back-handed insults... it's his nature.

        Betty's Kipling post ("IF") was very amusing. "If" only Betty
        didn't "deal in lies" or "if" she could really "think" for herself,
        but maybe her real goal "is the Earth and everything that's in it."
        Or, is her goal to someday "be a man, my son." It's too bad that
        Betty/Mario can't use her own words instead of others. However, I
        will have to give Betty credit (this time) for stating the source of
        her words. This is a rarity! Usually she plagarizes, paraphrases,
        mimics, copies, and parrots from her Icke/TRANCE/Cassiopaea sources.
        One should keep this in mind when reading anything she writes that
        seems intellectual and "factual." Yes, it's all a facade! This is
        true illusion!

        Even one or two of the B&M supporters aren't (most likely) who they
        seem to be either. I really think one is an Eckist (HK?) or someone
        else who really hates Ford! If I wanted to take Ford down I would
        just stroke the egos of Betty and Mario, support their conspiracy
        dribble, and voila'! This is one conspiracy that is much more
        believable. Then again, maybe the real conspiracies just aren't as
        interesting as the fictional ones. Perhaps B&M find this sci-
        fi/psychic/conspiracy thing much more intriguing than
        the "spiritual" stuff? There are certainly more people, it seems,
        who have had experiences with this other stuff than with true
        spiritual experiences. Maybe this is why there is this off-beat
        interest. If one has nothing else to compare to and No grounding of
        common sense or are mentally/emotionally imbalanced then I can see
        the attraction.

        Prometheus




        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "ctecvie"
        <ctecvie@y...> wrote:

        >Well, Betty - you didn't say anything really new in your last, once
        again long-winded post. What strikes me again, as in all of your
        posts, is that you seem to think you need to "educate" and "teach"
        us "the Truth". Please remember that this is only YOUR truth and not
        THE TRUTH. There are a lot of truths out there - and all of them are
        personal and individual truths, backed up by our own and personal
        experiences, nothing more and nothing less. Even if you are not
        aware of it, you do talk down to the "uneducated" like I am one -
        and I do feel offended. Please don't try to justify yourself - I
        have heard it all, and it's of no use as this will be my only
        statement on this topic.

        >I'm really surprised to read that you are hardly more interested in
        conspiracies than JCP is! What a bold statement! All I can perceive
        is that you have hardly anything else to tell in your posts apart
        from the endless talk about conspiracies. Ah yes, there is something
        else - that Eckankar is still the highest path on earth. It seems to
        me that, to this day, you have not really left Eckankar. Obviously I
        do not agree with you at all - but this is my truth, just as the
        statement you make is your truth again. Remember that Eckankar has
        stolen a lot of wisdom, if not all of it, from other paths and from
        life itself - no wonder it's "close to the truth" as you say because
        that way, this is really very easy to do!

        >I'm always wondering from where comes your absolute certitude about
        how life works. I do think that you make valid statements which
        apply to many of us, but again - it's your truth, it's how you
        perceive life. This is very good. But please remember that there are
        a lot of fairly intelligent people out here who have all something
        to share - and I mean, to SHARE and not talk down to somebody - on
        that. Unfortunately, there was not much sharing going on during the
        last few weeks or months because Mario and you practically did all
        the "sharing" - interspersed by some highlight posts from Ed Kusi as
        mentioned above. I can say for me that I was discouraged from that
        by the way this BB was running because Mario and you clearly are
        dominating it. Fortunately, people braver than me spoke up
        eventually - and that gives me hope that the BB will eventually
        recover and provide the excellent spiritual and personal insights it
        had when I first came here.

        Ingrid
      • mishmisha9
        Kipling s If poem is rather nice, but when figuring out why it is posted on HCS, one has to wonder if the poster is putting herself again up on a pedestal.
        Message 3 of 7 , Jul 5, 2005
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          Kipling's "If" poem is rather nice, but when figuring out why it is
          posted on HCS, one has to wonder if the poster is putting herself
          again up on a pedestal. Unfortunately, this seems to be an ongoing
          problem, and the person doesn't get it! Personally, I don't care
          what others believe--everyone is entitled to their beliefs/opinions,
          but when someone continously pushes it/promotes it, and seems to
          look down on those who differ, well I have a problem with that. From
          the beginning, I detected the arrogance that comes with the postings
          of these individuals. At first, I thought something was lost in
          translation, but since it continues, well it seems to be a part of
          the personality so to speak! Maybe, it is a factor in not being able
          to let go of Eckankar and that bogus HI status? As for parroting and
          paraphrasing others' words, well, isn't that a part of being
          brainwashed? Original thinking is lost.

          I believe that the conspiracy theories/aliens/Icke speak etc. will
          continue to be posted on HCS. Some people are encouraging it, and
          perhaps, as Prometheus suggests, that might be a conspiracy of sorts
          against HCS! : ) The bottom line, though, is that Ford allows it,
          approves of it, and that is the way his sites will be. It is his
          responsibility and decision on how he wants the complexion of his
          sites to look--it's his vision.

          Anyway, I do not foresee any changes in the postings on HCS. Both
          Betty and Mario have basically said they cannot be stopped! : )
          Well, good for them! (blink! blink!) (In case, you didn't catch the
          significance of the "blink"--that's a Harold techique--LOL!)

          Mish
        • mishmisha9
          Hi, Truthdecider! ... be ... the ... I don t think that Prometheus meant to invalidate all of the theories, but perhaps he will clarify this himself. You are
          Message 4 of 7 , Jul 5, 2005
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            Hi, Truthdecider!

            Just some thoughts on your post here:

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "truthdecider"
            <truthdecider@y...> wrote:
            > Hey Prometheus,
            >
            > For me, there is a balance and a co-existence of these kinds
            > of "conspiracy" experiences, and real "spiritual" experiences.
            > Having had both types of experiences, I think that they both can
            be
            > valid and have a place in understanding the world that we live in.
            >
            > I understand that it is very easy for people to be very unbalanced
            > when it comes to the "conspiracy-like" topics, and to go off of
            the
            > deep end into the seemingly ridiculous very easily. However, this
            > tendency in the "conspiracy following" people does not necessarily
            > invalidate all of the theories that they are exploring.

            I don't think that Prometheus meant to invalidate all of the
            theories, but perhaps he will clarify this himself. You are correct
            on this, however--and I will add that the 2nd gunman theory in the
            JFK assassination is still a probable for me! : )

            Also, I have read a few books about 9/11/2001, and there is much to
            explore there as well. However, I don't believe in the planes being
            flown by the government and the passengers being government
            employees, etc. I also do not believe in the flash video that has
            been posted on various websites about the crash into the Pentagon.
            The flash video is irritating and seems to be an ultimate
            brainwashing tool--keep watching it and you will surely believe the
            theories, you'll be brainwashed into believing it. I'd rather see a
            slower video and let my brain figure it out. So I only watched it a
            couple of times, and realized it was dangerous to the mind
            (subliminal message).


            >
            > For example, as a native New Yorker, with friends in the NYPD, and
            > the FDNY, I can tell you that it is not just the New Age
            conspiracy
            > folks that are very suspicious about what really happened on 9/11.
            > There is a large coalition of Fire Fighters, Policemen (some of
            the
            > Police and Firemen were actually on the scene on 9/11, or lost
            > friends and family that day), Building Engineers, Veteran Combat
            > Pilots, etc. that are suing the entire Bush administration to try
            > and force them to reopen the 9/11 investigation. They are doing
            this
            > because of how many holes and inconsistencies these professionals
            > feel exist in the official explanation of what happened that day.
            We
            > can't just dismiss all of these educated professionals as
            imbalanced
            > just because what they are saying doesn't fit with the mass
            media's
            > version of the story. That would be dangerously short sighted of
            us
            > if we did.

            I think that the Bush administration is exceedingly corrupt, whether
            he is aware himself to its depth or he is just being used by the
            manipulators. I recently read, "102 Minutes: The Untold Story of the
            Fight to Survive Inside The Twin Towers" by Jim Dwyer and Kevin
            Flynn. It is an interesting read which also discusses the buildings'
            construction, the building codes, the firemen and policemen who
            worked on the scene and so forth. There's a lot of good information,
            and it shows how government agencies do not always work well
            together and that old codes and regulations were not up to date,
            etc.


            >
            > My own history of childhood abuse and its related self-hate issues
            > that I still struggle with may make me more susceptible to cult-
            > speak in general, which, as I mentioned in my last post, I am
            > painfully aware of. But this doesn't put me in the category of
            being
            > mentally/emotionally imbalanced. My hard won awareness through
            first
            > hand experience of the fact that there are many things that our
            > government is lying to us about does not put me in this category
            > either.

            I don't think you are in that "category of being
            mentally/emotionally imbalanced" either--and I doubt that anyone
            reading your posts, including Prometheus, would think so. : ) As
            for the government lying, well, yes, it is a daily occurance and
            anyone who believes all the spins that are put out there would
            indeed be very foolish. I also think believing in the opinions of
            the likes of Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly and others is also just as
            confusing and not very factual. However, I do enjoy John Stewart on
            the Daily Show--now, he is fun! : )

            >
            > All I'm saying is that I think we need to be careful not to rush
            to
            > judgment about all of this too quickly, or over-generalize it, and
            > lump it all together in one pot, and call all of it completely
            > crazy.

            Perhaps, the intent was not to lump it all in one pot--sometimes for
            dramatics one might make what seems a sweeping statement. I have
            done it myself--maybe even in this post. : )

            Mish
          • prometheus_973
            Hello Truthdecider, I just had some comments on what you wrote. ... of conspiracy experiences, and real spiritual experiences. Having had both types of
            Message 5 of 7 , Jul 6, 2005
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              Hello Truthdecider,

              I just had some comments on what you wrote.

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "truthdecider"
              <truthdecider@y...> wrote:

              >For me, there is a balance and a co-existence of these kinds
              of "conspiracy" experiences, and real "spiritual" experiences.
              Having had both types of experiences, I think that they both can be
              valid and have a place in understanding the world that we live in.


              I'm not quite sure what "conspiracy" experiences you are talking
              about unless it is a UFO one that some "government" agency is
              covering up.


              >I understand that it is very easy for people to be very unbalanced
              when it comes to the "conspiracy-like" topics, and to go off of the
              deep end into the seemingly ridiculous very easily. However, this
              tendency in the "conspiracy following" people does not necessarily
              invalidate all of the theories that they are exploring.

              No it doesn't invalidate "all" of the theories, but let's use some
              common sense too. However, there are many conspiracies taking place
              within families, local governments, state governments, small
              businesses, large corporations and departments and agencies within
              world governments. People just naturally manipulate information and
              make plans that benefit one group over another (people conspire!).
              It's what the ego and group consciousness does.

              > For example, as a native New Yorker, with friends in the NYPD, and
              the FDNY, I can tell you that it is not just the New Age conspiracy
              folks that are very suspicious about what really happened on 9/11.
              There is a large coalition of Fire Fighters, Policemen (some of the
              Police and Firemen were actually on the scene on 9/11, or lost
              friends and family that day), Building Engineers, Veteran Combat
              Pilots, etc. that are suing the entire Bush administration to try
              and force them to reopen the 9/11 investigation. They are doing this
              because of how many holes and inconsistencies these professionals
              feel exist in the official explanation of what happened that day. We
              can't just dismiss all of these educated professionals as imbalanced
              just because what they are saying doesn't fit with the mass media's
              version of the story. That would be dangerously short sighted of us
              if we did.


              It's true that the Bush administration and most likely the New York
              state, city and county government leaders and department heads don't
              want certain information to be known. But, that is because it would
              show their own incompetence, criminal neglect and civil liability in
              regard to holes in security, budget cuts that compromised safety,
              not following up leads, poor communications, not having a plan, not
              enforcing building codes, etc., etc., etc. And, nothing much has
              been done to correct future problems. There was nothing more than
              that. It's no wonder that people are mad when the politicians are
              covering their tracks. Unfortunately, this also gives the conspiracy
              nuts "evidence" (wild speculation) to blow it all out of proportion
              and then we have our own government flying the planes into the
              buildings! The reason the planes looked "different" to many
              observers is because the terrorists had the passengers put the
              shades down on the windows. So, just who are these "educated"
              professionals you mention? Are these retired pilots watching from
              the ground? Bush was a pilot too and I wouldn't believe anything he
              told me about his observations or planes in general! Are these
              people more creditable and why? Is their eyesight okay, were they on
              medication, did they have an unobstructed view? Where were they and
              how far away, etc. when the events transpired. What kind of
              specific complains and observations do they have? Have they written
              a book? Were events distorted due to these people being in shock?
              Have emotional opinions formed as blanks in memory and perception
              are now filled in?


              >My own history of childhood abuse and its related self-hate issues
              that I still struggle with may make me more susceptible to cult-
              speak in general, which, as I mentioned in my last post, I am
              painfully aware of. But this doesn't put me in the category of being
              mentally/emotionally imbalanced. My hard won awareness through first
              hand experience of the fact that there are many things that our
              government is lying to us about does not put me in this category
              either.



              I'm sorry... I never meant to imply that you have a mental or
              emotional imbalance. However, many of these hard core conspiracy
              theorists do.



              >All I'm saying is that I think we need to be careful not to rush to
              judgment about all of this too quickly, or over-generalize it, and
              lump it all together in one pot, and call all of it completely
              crazy.


              Maybe and maybe not. I'm not going to believe anything thing that
              David Icke, Mark Phillips, Cathy O'Brien, Laura Knight, Betty H.,
              Mario, Twitchell, Gross, Klemp, L. Ron Hubbard, Tom Cruise, Bush,
              Chaney, etc., etc., etc. have to say. So, although this may seem
              like a rush to judgment or over-generalization and lumping together
              in one pot all of those I consider as deluded or liars or a
              combination of both... I still feel good about it!

              By the way... I had mentioned the JFK assassination because I saw
              Penn and Teller on Showtime do a segment on Conspiracy Theories.
              They had some good information from independent tests on the firing
              of the three shots which seemed to dispel the grassy knoll theory.
              Oswald was not mentioned or his likely connection with Castro or
              the Russians. And, Jack Ruby or LBJ spectulations weren't mentioned
              either. It's all interesting but even more unfortunate when
              governments withhold information that could give clarity and
              closure. But, why did security allow several Arabs with box cutters
              to board those flights? More incompetence! It's everywhere! It's
              just in some places more than others. Ever been in the military?
              There's a s___ load of it there and no end in sight! Actually,
              sometimes it's fun to speculate on the bizarre or the unknown. Why
              else have there been so many fiction, science fiction, and
              mystery books written? People love it! Some just take it far too
              seriously.

              Prometheus
            • prometheus_973
              Hi Mish, Yes, Limbaugh and O Reilly do distort the truth. ... and anyone who believes all the spins that are put out there would I also think believing in the
              Message 6 of 7 , Jul 6, 2005
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                Hi Mish,

                Yes, Limbaugh and O'Reilly do distort the truth.


                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
                >>As for the government lying, well, yes, it is a daily occurance
                and anyone who believes all the spins that are put out there would
                I also think believing in the opinions of the likes of Rush
                Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly and others is also just as confusing and not
                very factual. However, I do enjoy John Stewart on the Daily Show--
                now, he is fun! : )



                I once wrote an email to Bill O'Reilly and he (sort of) read it on
                his show. I said "sort of" because he edited it so that the meaning
                was changed. I had said something about Congress Not doing it's job
                for two years while obsessing on Clinton and Monica. He turned it
                around to make it seem that I was criticizing Clinton instead of the
                Republican controlled Congress. I was watching the Daily Show
                recently and they showed how O'Reilly lied about a study done in
                Sweden where they supposedly allow gay couples to marry. The "study"
                showed that the number of hetero-sexual marriages declined. The
                problem is that Sweden does Not allow gays to marry and the "study"
                was never done. O'Reilly just makes things up in order to throw his
                guests off balance and to confuse them while making his agenda look
                more valid. Now this is a conspiracy too! But, how far up the ladder
                does it go, who benefits and in what ways? These are the real
                conspiacies! Maybe the others are actually there to distract us from
                what's real! Maybe the Conspiracy Theorists writing those books are
                really secretive government employees supplying disinformation to
                confuse and distract! After all, they seem to do a very good job at
                pointing fingers and discrediting anything and everyone including
                themselves!

                Prometheus
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