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Re: Some of My Thoughts on Conspiracy Theories, Etc.

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  • mishmisha9
    Hello, Prometheus, Truthdecider and Ingrid! Thank you for your posts on this subject which I find interesting as well. The one thing that came to mind for me
    Message 1 of 15 , Jul 2, 2005
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      Hello, Prometheus, Truthdecider and Ingrid!

      Thank you for your posts on this subject which I find interesting as
      well. The one thing that came to mind for me is why bother to strip
      the gunk away to find that "truth" Icke has taken from other
      sources to begin with? It seems like a lot of bother in reading
      Icke, and instead one should just go to the originators of this
      truth. Also, what makes Icke so more knowing than you or me or
      anyone else? He seems to have popped up out of nowhere. I can
      imagine that without the Internet sites that he has he would not
      still be so popular or receive the attention he does.

      One's experiences in truth should be able to stand on their own
      merit without the comparison to or approval of someone else.

      Mish

      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
      <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "truthdecider"
      > <truthdecider@y...> wrote:
      > > Hello Prometheus!
      >
      > >Firstly, I agree that David Icke definitely goes too far. He
      can't
      > possibly expect most people to go along with the whole shape-
      > shifting reptilian thing, even if he himself does actually believe
      > this. And he should realize that. Also, I feel that a lot of his
      > books are redundant and repetitive, and dwell too much on his
      > perceived negativity in the world. Because of things like this,
      one
      > certainly has to wonder what his motives really are.
      >
      > >However, if you strip away all of the reptilian stuff, his over
      > stressing of negativity as he perceives it, and his
      repetitiveness,
      > his essential message, as I see it, is still good.
      >
      >
      > I would also include stripping away the false "Protocols of the
      > Elders of Zion" along with the reptilian stuff!
      >
      >
      > >And his essential message is that we live on a planet that is
      > largely controlled by people in power who are, for the most part,
      > negative, but it really doesn't matter, because we are all
      eternal,
      > immortal spiritual beings, and we only need to reawaken ourselves
      to
      > this fact to free ourselves from this trap, which is actually self
      > created anyway.
      >
      >
      > Any true spiritual seeker alreadys knows this! This is what
      > Eckankar, Hindus, New Age religions, and many of us already know!
      > He's preaching to the choir! So, why are some people
      > (on TS/HCS) preaching this message to those who already know it?
      >
      >
      > >He further states that those negative people in power are
      actually
      > just extensions or reflections of the negative aspects of
      ourselves.
      >
      >
      > Except, people also need to take ownership and responsibility for
      > their actions. It's all a part of our spiritual evolution just as
      > karma is. It is a testing ground for Soul.
      >
      >
      > >Hence, the awakening of our true, highest nature not only frees
      us
      > spiritually, but helps the world at large become more spiritually
      > free due to the synergistic effect this has on dissipating this
      self
      > created negativity that we have all manifested, due to the fact
      that
      > the negative aspects of our lower natures have had too strong a
      say
      > in things for too many lifetimes on this planet.
      >
      >
      > Icke should worry more about the negativity, delusion,
      > misinformation, and fear that he has generated not only for
      himself
      > but especially for others through his words. Why are those with a
      > positive outlook criticized for not buying into the gloom and doom?
      >
      >
      > >This essential message of David Icke's is not too different from
      > the essential message of many other spiritual teachings that are
      > considered very legitimate by many people.
      >
      >
      > Icke's essential message is that of fear! Which is nothing new
      > either! Just listen to Bush! Icke is no more a "spiritual" teacher
      > than Mario is.
      >
      >
      > >So, in a nutshell, I feel that his essential points are quite
      > valid, but his approach to communicating this, and his over
      dwelling
      > on certain aspects of his perceptions of negativity leave a lot to
      > be desired, and do somewhat call his agenda into question.
      >
      >
      > In other words Twichell, Gross, and Klemp had similar points and
      > (money) agendas except for the reptilians-alien mind control
      > conspiracies thing and the "Protocols."
      >
      >
      > >This whole idea of everything being a grand illusion, and yet
      still
      > being important and mattering is not a new concept. It is very
      > prevalent in some Eastern philosophies, and is certainly not
      unique
      > to David Icke. This is a common concept throughout much of both
      the
      > Zen and Taoist teachings in particular. It is understood in these
      > teachings that the entire universe is a self created illusion,
      which
      > doesn't exist in the sense that we have been taught to believe
      that
      > it does, and yet still matters for the education and spiritual
      > growth of the souls that dwell there.
      >
      >
      > Preceisely! Therefore Icke could have borrowed this concept to
      give
      > his con a spiritual twist. Others have been successful by doing
      the
      > exact same thing! I have to look at the honesty and sanity of Icke
      > and those he associates and aligns himself with as well. Icke
      > overwhelms people with information and speculation in order to
      > confuse them. Eventually one justs gives in and accepts all of the
      > mind boggling information as being correct and truthful (a very
      good
      > brain-washing technique). It's a giant leap of faith to believe
      that
      > Icke's motives for selling himself are fair and just, but why give
      > anyone that much power over you?
      >
      >
      > >The highest form of realization is taught to be a state of
      > beingness where one has fully realized this illusory nature of
      life,
      > and yet consciously enters back into the illusion to help all the
      > other beings that are still trapped in it. This is what David Icke
      > is talking about here.
      >
      >
      > Not when Iche is using the false and anti-Jewish "Protocols of the
      > Elders of Zion" which led to the Holocaust! That point alone
      should
      > raise the Red Flags to anyone who has any doubts about Icke.
      >
      >
      > >You say that Icke is basically anti-American.
      >
      >
      >
      > No, I said he is anti-U.S. Icke states that the U.S. government is
      > involved with (now and in the past) an alien-reptilian mind
      control
      > conspiracy. Perhaps I should have said that Icke is anti-U.S.
      > government.
      >
      >
      >
      > >And lastly, you wrote: "Intuition, insight, clarity, love and joy
      > are all factors that I experience in my life. Where are these in
      the
      > world of David Icke and company? Nowhere!"
      >
      > >Actually, David Icke's writings stress all of the above quite a
      > bit. He speaks at length about developing your intuitive
      faculties,
      > and living your life from the vantage point of who you really are:
      A
      > divine, eternal, immortal, and infinitely loving being that is
      > actually already free from it's self created traps in the lower
      > worlds, and is already dwelling in the infinite love and joy of
      it's
      > own Beingness.
      >
      >
      > Yes, talk is cheap! Just look at Klemp! However, Icke is also a
      liar
      > just like his "TRANCE" buddies (Mark Phillips and Cathy O'Brien).
      > The self created trap is believing that these people are not only
      > being truthful, but that they also impart a "spiritual" message. I
      > guess that Hitler and Stalin had spiritual messages too! Right
      > judgment and critical thinking have been shut out by these "true
      > believers" who ego's are "outside of the box." They have accepted
      an
      > unoriginal, negative, and fictional mixture of partial truths to
      > form a new secular religion with Ickeists like themselves.
      >
      > Prometheus
    • prometheus_973
      Hi Ingrid, Yes, Icke the pseudo expert and pseudo spiritual master spreads fear and hatred through lies and misinformation much like those infamous figures in
      Message 2 of 15 , Jul 2, 2005
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        Hi Ingrid,
        Yes, Icke the pseudo expert and pseudo spiritual master spreads fear
        and hatred through lies and misinformation much like those infamous
        figures in history. Icke doesn't even believe that the Holocaust
        took place! It is interesting how these power and money hungry con
        artists find just the right scam in order to pull in the suckers.
        Did you ever see the movie "The Sting" with Paul Newman and Robert
        Redford? This movie is a blueprint to show how easy it is to trick
        foolish, greedy, and egotistical people with partial truth.

        On another note: Yes, conspiracies have always existed... they too
        are part of the "testing ground for Soul" concept. However, this
        also means that we (Souls) have all lived before which means that we
        have been of different gender, race, religion, etc. , and have been
        both victim and persecutor.

        Betty, over on HCS, makes the statement that "everything is
        spiritual" as a means to justify her and Mario's constant ramblings
        of conspiracy/"spiritual" topics. If one sees life as a testing
        ground for Soul then she is correct, in part, that everything is
        spiritual. However, there is much more to this statement than she is
        apparently capable of seeing. Yes, there is negative and positive
        and something inbetween. But why chose or promote a negative con and
        its fear and hatred spin over the opposite? Where are the spiritual
        lessons to be learned and the responsibility to yourself and to
        others in finding real truth and sharing it (isn't the glass half
        full?). Apparently, Betty and Mario used no caution or
        discrimination in finding their new beliefs. Then again, according
        to their past BB posts, they bought into Icke and others while still
        being happily deluded members of Eckankar (pre-"Confessions"). What
        Icke presents, especially, with the "Protocols" (Illumanati) has
        been proven to be false by real experts. Therefore, how can one
        trust anything else Icke has to say when using any other "facts." As
        I have said before... Icke inundates his readers with so much
        information that most just accept it all as factual. After all, why
        question the words of an expert, or for that matter of a master?

        Of course, Ford has to take some responsibility, as well, for
        allowing the B&M crap to be posted constantly on his BBs. But, more
        on that in another post.

        Prometheus




        >>Yes, talk is cheap! Just look at Klemp! However, Icke is also a
        liar just like his "TRANCE" buddies (Mark Phillips and Cathy
        O'Brien). The self created trap is believing that these people are
        not only being truthful, but that they also impart a "spiritual"
        message. I guess that Hitler and Stalin had spiritual messages too!
        Right judgment and critical thinking have been shut out by
        these "true believers" who ego's are "outside of the box." They have
        accepted an unoriginal, negative, and fictional mixture of partial
        truths to form a new secular religion with Ickeists like themselves.

        > You make a very good point here, Prometheus. Hitler had in fact a
        spiritual message, at least that was his point of view. He was in
        fact very interested in spiritual matters and knew a lot about it.
        He knew that the Swastika was a very powerful sign - he just turned
        it around, and thus lost its positive power and turned into a
        negative sign. He knew exactly about how to turn things around to
        influence, brainwash and harm people. Today, we always wonder how
        this could have happened, that so many people believed in Hitler -
        but in fact, it's happening here and now as well. The faith we put
        in so-called spiritual leaders and people like Icke and the
        Tranceformation people - it's the same faith Hitler's followers put
        in Hitler. The difference is only that those people obviously don't
        have as much power as Hitler had,and are not as dangerous as Hitler
        was. But if you strip everything and leave just the faith, then
        that's it.

        > Ingrid
      • ctecvie
        Hello Truthdecider, your last post is so powerful, and I don t really know what to say at this point. Just let me tell you that I m so glad to have you on ESA.
        Message 3 of 15 , Jul 4, 2005
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          Hello Truthdecider,

          your last post is so powerful, and I don't really know what to say
          at this point. Just let me tell you that I'm so glad to have you on
          ESA. I perceive you as a very kind and thoughtful man, and even if I
          don't know you at all, I like you very much.

          Thank you for your openness, this is very courageous of you. I will
          have to think and feel a bit more about what you said in your post,
          and then come back to you.

          All the best,
          Ingrid

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "truthdecider"
          <truthdecider@y...> wrote:
          > Hello Prometheus, Ingrid, and Mish,
          >
          > Mish, forgive me, but at this point, my responding to the points
          that
          > you made in your David Icke post would be rather pointless, as my
          > thinking on this whole thing has shifted dramatically, as you will
          see.
          >
          > I was away the past 2 days enjoying some wonderful time with
          family,
          > and a huge Fourth of July party. However, in spite of all the fun
          and
          > festivities, it has been occurring to me, much to my dismay, that I
          > still seem to have a tremendous aptitude for extreme self-
          deception. I
          > mean, I know who I am, on some very deep and fundamental levels,
          but I
          > still seem to have an almost amazing knack for getting sucked into
          > "spiritual" kinds of teachings that, temporarily anyway, give me
          > something to hold onto that fills a very large black hole of self
          hate
          > that still exists inside of me, which has been there since early
          > childhood.
          >
          > I lived through some pretty heavy emotional and physical abuse
          during
          > very early childhood. This damaged my formative years quite
          severely,
          > and led to drug abuse and addiction throughout adolescence and my
          teen
          > years. What completely pulled me out of this was Eastern religion,
          > martial arts, and, by far, most extensively, Eckankar. Connecting
          with
          > the light and sound, and the Eck masters healed me in ways that I
          am
          > still eternally grateful for.
          >
          > However, after enjoying an all to brief period in my early
          twenties,
          > when, for the first time in my life, I truly felt healed and whole,
          > and full of genuine self love, the whole Darwin thing came crashing
          > down around me. This was, of course, in the early 1980s.
          >
          > I never really was able to find that same center inside myself with
          > the Eck teachings that I had found for that brief time after the
          whole
          > Darwin crash happened. I trudged along as best I could, and
          constantly
          > tried to find that again. Life was still much, much better than it
          > had been before I first found Eckankar, but I had lost that deep
          sense
          > of balance and self love that I had so enjoyed for that brief time.
          >
          > Then in the late 80s, I encountered first hand, very direct,
          dramatic,
          > experiences with UFOs, and then, subsequently, encounters with very
          > nasty people that wished to silence me from discussing these
          > experiences, or asking too many questions about them. This was in
          no
          > way self-delusional, as these kinds of things were experienced by
          > literally hundreds of people in New York's Hudson Valley area
          during
          > this time. There are 3 books written about all of this that are
          > available on Amazon.com, but all of this is another story for
          another
          > post at some other time.
          >
          > In any event, it was these experiences that led to reading books by
          > David Icke, and a host of others, to try and understand just what
          the
          > hell was going on with all of this stuff. It really shook to me to
          my
          > core to learn first hand that there really are technologies that go
          > way beyond the laws of physics as we know them, and more
          importantly,
          > that I really didn't have a lot of the freedoms that I had been
          led to
          > believe that I had as an American citizen. That there were really
          > people out there that would threaten to kill me if I would not
          shut up
          > about what I had seen. If you haven't lived through these kinds of
          > experiences, then it is very difficult to understand what I really
          > mean, and what this does to you.
          >
          > So I guess my question for you guys is: What the hell IS out
          there, in
          > your opinion, that you can trust and work with, in addition to your
          > own higher selves, that is of a spiritual nature? I mean, you all
          seem
          > to be aware that higher spiritual realities do exist, and that
          there
          > is some truth to the fact that our government is not what it is
          > cracked up to be, which I certainly know first hand. But if
          Cassiopia,
          > David Icke, HCS, Eckankar, Michael Owens, and all the rest are just
          > more lies and traps, than what is out there that is real and
          > trustworthy? Because, very sadly, even though I KNOW I AM SOUL on
          some
          > very deep level, my mind just doesn't seem to be able to learn to
          let
          > me love myself enough to not need some sort of external support
          system
          > at this point.
          >
          > I know that I am not the mind, and that I should be able to just
          not
          > be affected by it, and just move past it, and trust the real me,
          Soul.
          > However, the self-hate engrams that are still part of the mind seem
          > way too strong at times to let me do this.
          >
          > I have tried going to counseling on three separate occasions
          within
          > the last few years, but that has not worked out at all. The kind of
          > issues that I bring to the table seem to be way outside the scope
          of
          > what these therapists know how to deal with. I have literally blown
          > them all away, in one way or another, and I end up needing to stop
          going.
          >
          > I am at a loss, and I feel very frustrated and tired at this
          point. I
          > really don't know where to turn anymore. I hope that someone out
          there
          > can say something that will help guide me in the right direction.
          >
          >
          > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
          > <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
          > > Hi Ingrid,
          > > Yes, Icke the pseudo expert and pseudo spiritual master spreads
          fear
          > > and hatred through lies and misinformation much like those
          infamous
          > > figures in history. Icke doesn't even believe that the Holocaust
          > > took place! It is interesting how these power and money hungry
          con
          > > artists find just the right scam in order to pull in the
          suckers.
          > > Did you ever see the movie "The Sting" with Paul Newman and
          Robert
          > > Redford? This movie is a blueprint to show how easy it is to
          trick
          > > foolish, greedy, and egotistical people with partial truth.
          > >
          > > On another note: Yes, conspiracies have always existed... they
          too
          > > are part of the "testing ground for Soul" concept. However, this
          > > also means that we (Souls) have all lived before which means
          that we
          > > have been of different gender, race, religion, etc. , and have
          been
          > > both victim and persecutor.
          > >
          > > Betty, over on HCS, makes the statement that "everything is
          > > spiritual" as a means to justify her and Mario's constant
          ramblings
          > > of conspiracy/"spiritual" topics. If one sees life as a testing
          > > ground for Soul then she is correct, in part, that everything is
          > > spiritual. However, there is much more to this statement than
          she is
          > > apparently capable of seeing. Yes, there is negative and
          positive
          > > and something inbetween. But why chose or promote a negative con
          and
          > > its fear and hatred spin over the opposite? Where are the
          spiritual
          > > lessons to be learned and the responsibility to yourself and to
          > > others in finding real truth and sharing it (isn't the glass
          half
          > > full?). Apparently, Betty and Mario used no caution or
          > > discrimination in finding their new beliefs. Then again,
          according
          > > to their past BB posts, they bought into Icke and others while
          still
          > > being happily deluded members of Eckankar (pre-"Confessions").
          What
          > > Icke presents, especially, with the "Protocols" (Illumanati) has
          > > been proven to be false by real experts. Therefore, how can one
          > > trust anything else Icke has to say when using any
          other "facts." As
          > > I have said before... Icke inundates his readers with so much
          > > information that most just accept it all as factual. After all,
          why
          > > question the words of an expert, or for that matter of a master?
          > >
          > > Of course, Ford has to take some responsibility, as well, for
          > > allowing the B&M crap to be posted constantly on his BBs. But,
          more
          > > on that in another post.
          > >
          > > Prometheus
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > >>Yes, talk is cheap! Just look at Klemp! However, Icke is also
          a
          > > liar just like his "TRANCE" buddies (Mark Phillips and Cathy
          > > O'Brien). The self created trap is believing that these people
          are
          > > not only being truthful, but that they also impart a "spiritual"
          > > message. I guess that Hitler and Stalin had spiritual messages
          too!
          > > Right judgment and critical thinking have been shut out by
          > > these "true believers" who ego's are "outside of the box." They
          have
          > > accepted an unoriginal, negative, and fictional mixture of
          partial
          > > truths to form a new secular religion with Ickeists like
          themselves.
          > >
          > > > You make a very good point here, Prometheus. Hitler had in
          fact a
          > > spiritual message, at least that was his point of view. He was
          in
          > > fact very interested in spiritual matters and knew a lot about
          it.
          > > He knew that the Swastika was a very powerful sign - he just
          turned
          > > it around, and thus lost its positive power and turned into a
          > > negative sign. He knew exactly about how to turn things around
          to
          > > influence, brainwash and harm people. Today, we always wonder
          how
          > > this could have happened, that so many people believed in
          Hitler -
          > > but in fact, it's happening here and now as well. The faith we
          put
          > > in so-called spiritual leaders and people like Icke and the
          > > Tranceformation people - it's the same faith Hitler's followers
          put
          > > in Hitler. The difference is only that those people obviously
          don't
          > > have as much power as Hitler had,and are not as dangerous as
          Hitler
          > > was. But if you strip everything and leave just the faith, then
          > > that's it.
          > >
          > > > Ingrid
        • Freefrom
          Truth Decider, I can very much identify with what you say about the black hole of self-hate and how this affects our ability to steer clear of different
          Message 4 of 15 , Jul 4, 2005
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            Truth Decider,

            I can very much identify with what you say about the "black hole
            of self-hate" and how this affects our ability to steer clear of
            different KULTs etc.. When I get into these states I find that
            sometimes there is a kind of double bind of hating yourself for hating
            yourself. It may sound ridiculous, but for me it can be a real
            dillemma. THis is just my experience, but I have noticed that once I
            recognize that I am doing this and that I am repeating a pattern that
            I too was forced into from childhood, then there is a sense of
            spaciousness as I realize that I can open to all of my feelings. This
            in itself promotes a sense of feeling better, well being. We don't
            really have to prove ourselves to anyone, unless we are claiming to be
            a LEM or something like that. :-)

            Best

            Freefrom

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "truthdecider"
            <truthdecider@y...> wrote:
            > Hello Prometheus, Ingrid, and Mish,
            >
            > Mish, forgive me, but at this point, my responding to the points that
            > you made in your David Icke post would be rather pointless, as my
            > thinking on this whole thing has shifted dramatically, as you will see.
            >
            > I was away the past 2 days enjoying some wonderful time with family,
            > and a huge Fourth of July party. However, in spite of all the fun and
            > festivities, it has been occurring to me, much to my dismay, that I
            > still seem to have a tremendous aptitude for extreme self-deception. I
            > mean, I know who I am, on some very deep and fundamental levels, but I
            > still seem to have an almost amazing knack for getting sucked into
            > "spiritual" kinds of teachings that, temporarily anyway, give me
            > something to hold onto that fills a very large black hole of self hate
            > that still exists inside of me, which has been there since early
            > childhood.
            >
            > I lived through some pretty heavy emotional and physical abuse during
            > very early childhood. This damaged my formative years quite severely,
            > and led to drug abuse and addiction throughout adolescence and my teen
            > years. What completely pulled me out of this was Eastern religion,
            > martial arts, and, by far, most extensively, Eckankar. Connecting with
            > the light and sound, and the Eck masters healed me in ways that I am
            > still eternally grateful for.
            >
            > However, after enjoying an all to brief period in my early twenties,
            > when, for the first time in my life, I truly felt healed and whole,
            > and full of genuine self love, the whole Darwin thing came crashing
            > down around me. This was, of course, in the early 1980s.
            >
            > I never really was able to find that same center inside myself with
            > the Eck teachings that I had found for that brief time after the whole
            > Darwin crash happened. I trudged along as best I could, and constantly
            > tried to find that again. Life was still much, much better than it
            > had been before I first found Eckankar, but I had lost that deep sense
            > of balance and self love that I had so enjoyed for that brief time.
            >
            > Then in the late 80s, I encountered first hand, very direct, dramatic,
            > experiences with UFOs, and then, subsequently, encounters with very
            > nasty people that wished to silence me from discussing these
            > experiences, or asking too many questions about them. This was in no
            > way self-delusional, as these kinds of things were experienced by
            > literally hundreds of people in New York's Hudson Valley area during
            > this time. There are 3 books written about all of this that are
            > available on Amazon.com, but all of this is another story for another
            > post at some other time.
            >
            > In any event, it was these experiences that led to reading books by
            > David Icke, and a host of others, to try and understand just what the
            > hell was going on with all of this stuff. It really shook to me to my
            > core to learn first hand that there really are technologies that go
            > way beyond the laws of physics as we know them, and more importantly,
            > that I really didn't have a lot of the freedoms that I had been led to
            > believe that I had as an American citizen. That there were really
            > people out there that would threaten to kill me if I would not shut up
            > about what I had seen. If you haven't lived through these kinds of
            > experiences, then it is very difficult to understand what I really
            > mean, and what this does to you.
            >
            > So I guess my question for you guys is: What the hell IS out there, in
            > your opinion, that you can trust and work with, in addition to your
            > own higher selves, that is of a spiritual nature? I mean, you all seem
            > to be aware that higher spiritual realities do exist, and that there
            > is some truth to the fact that our government is not what it is
            > cracked up to be, which I certainly know first hand. But if Cassiopia,
            > David Icke, HCS, Eckankar, Michael Owens, and all the rest are just
            > more lies and traps, than what is out there that is real and
            > trustworthy? Because, very sadly, even though I KNOW I AM SOUL on some
            > very deep level, my mind just doesn't seem to be able to learn to let
            > me love myself enough to not need some sort of external support system
            > at this point.
            >
            > I know that I am not the mind, and that I should be able to just not
            > be affected by it, and just move past it, and trust the real me, Soul.
            > However, the self-hate engrams that are still part of the mind seem
            > way too strong at times to let me do this.
            >
            > I have tried going to counseling on three separate occasions within
            > the last few years, but that has not worked out at all. The kind of
            > issues that I bring to the table seem to be way outside the scope of
            > what these therapists know how to deal with. I have literally blown
            > them all away, in one way or another, and I end up needing to stop
            going.
            >
            > I am at a loss, and I feel very frustrated and tired at this point. I
            > really don't know where to turn anymore. I hope that someone out there
            > can say something that will help guide me in the right direction.
            >
            >
            > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
            > <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
            > > Hi Ingrid,
            > > Yes, Icke the pseudo expert and pseudo spiritual master spreads fear
            > > and hatred through lies and misinformation much like those infamous
            > > figures in history. Icke doesn't even believe that the Holocaust
            > > took place! It is interesting how these power and money hungry con
            > > artists find just the right scam in order to pull in the suckers.
            > > Did you ever see the movie "The Sting" with Paul Newman and Robert
            > > Redford? This movie is a blueprint to show how easy it is to trick
            > > foolish, greedy, and egotistical people with partial truth.
            > >
            > > On another note: Yes, conspiracies have always existed... they too
            > > are part of the "testing ground for Soul" concept. However, this
            > > also means that we (Souls) have all lived before which means that we
            > > have been of different gender, race, religion, etc. , and have been
            > > both victim and persecutor.
            > >
            > > Betty, over on HCS, makes the statement that "everything is
            > > spiritual" as a means to justify her and Mario's constant ramblings
            > > of conspiracy/"spiritual" topics. If one sees life as a testing
            > > ground for Soul then she is correct, in part, that everything is
            > > spiritual. However, there is much more to this statement than she is
            > > apparently capable of seeing. Yes, there is negative and positive
            > > and something inbetween. But why chose or promote a negative con and
            > > its fear and hatred spin over the opposite? Where are the spiritual
            > > lessons to be learned and the responsibility to yourself and to
            > > others in finding real truth and sharing it (isn't the glass half
            > > full?). Apparently, Betty and Mario used no caution or
            > > discrimination in finding their new beliefs. Then again, according
            > > to their past BB posts, they bought into Icke and others while still
            > > being happily deluded members of Eckankar (pre-"Confessions"). What
            > > Icke presents, especially, with the "Protocols" (Illumanati) has
            > > been proven to be false by real experts. Therefore, how can one
            > > trust anything else Icke has to say when using any other "facts." As
            > > I have said before... Icke inundates his readers with so much
            > > information that most just accept it all as factual. After all, why
            > > question the words of an expert, or for that matter of a master?
            > >
            > > Of course, Ford has to take some responsibility, as well, for
            > > allowing the B&M crap to be posted constantly on his BBs. But, more
            > > on that in another post.
            > >
            > > Prometheus
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > >>Yes, talk is cheap! Just look at Klemp! However, Icke is also a
            > > liar just like his "TRANCE" buddies (Mark Phillips and Cathy
            > > O'Brien). The self created trap is believing that these people are
            > > not only being truthful, but that they also impart a "spiritual"
            > > message. I guess that Hitler and Stalin had spiritual messages too!
            > > Right judgment and critical thinking have been shut out by
            > > these "true believers" who ego's are "outside of the box." They have
            > > accepted an unoriginal, negative, and fictional mixture of partial
            > > truths to form a new secular religion with Ickeists like themselves.
            > >
            > > > You make a very good point here, Prometheus. Hitler had in fact a
            > > spiritual message, at least that was his point of view. He was in
            > > fact very interested in spiritual matters and knew a lot about it.
            > > He knew that the Swastika was a very powerful sign - he just turned
            > > it around, and thus lost its positive power and turned into a
            > > negative sign. He knew exactly about how to turn things around to
            > > influence, brainwash and harm people. Today, we always wonder how
            > > this could have happened, that so many people believed in Hitler -
            > > but in fact, it's happening here and now as well. The faith we put
            > > in so-called spiritual leaders and people like Icke and the
            > > Tranceformation people - it's the same faith Hitler's followers put
            > > in Hitler. The difference is only that those people obviously don't
            > > have as much power as Hitler had,and are not as dangerous as Hitler
            > > was. But if you strip everything and leave just the faith, then
            > > that's it.
            > >
            > > > Ingrid
          • mishmisha9
            Hi, Truthdecider! I want to respond to your post, but I can assure you that I can t answer your questons--that s a certain! : ) ... that ... see. This is just
            Message 5 of 15 , Jul 5, 2005
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              Hi, Truthdecider!

              I want to respond to your post, but I can assure you that I can't
              answer your questons--that's a certain! : )

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "truthdecider"
              <truthdecider@y...> wrote:
              > Hello Prometheus, Ingrid, and Mish,
              >
              > Mish, forgive me, but at this point, my responding to the points
              that
              > you made in your David Icke post would be rather pointless, as my
              > thinking on this whole thing has shifted dramatically, as you will
              see.

              This is just as well, because I don't know if I really wanted to go
              into more discussion on Icke--I needed a break! : ) I can see in
              your post here that you have been thinking a lot which is good. It's
              funny how one can see something one way, and then after some new
              thought, see it another. Ever shifting and normal way to look at
              life and what is going on. I'm not certain if or when we ever get it
              all figured out.

              >
              > I was away the past 2 days enjoying some wonderful time with
              family,
              > and a huge Fourth of July party. However, in spite of all the fun
              and
              > festivities, it has been occurring to me, much to my dismay, that I
              > still seem to have a tremendous aptitude for extreme self-
              deception. I
              > mean, I know who I am, on some very deep and fundamental levels,
              but I
              > still seem to have an almost amazing knack for getting sucked into
              > "spiritual" kinds of teachings that, temporarily anyway, give me
              > something to hold onto that fills a very large black hole of self
              hate
              > that still exists inside of me, which has been there since early
              > childhood.

              You are a truth seeker so of course you are checking out all kinds
              of spiritual teachings. I don't think that is a bad thing--more
              people should be into the spiritual. It is the most important aspect
              of our life.

              >
              > I lived through some pretty heavy emotional and physical abuse
              during
              > very early childhood. This damaged my formative years quite
              severely,
              > and led to drug abuse and addiction throughout adolescence and my
              teen
              > years. What completely pulled me out of this was Eastern religion,
              > martial arts, and, by far, most extensively, Eckankar. Connecting
              with
              > the light and sound, and the Eck masters healed me in ways that I
              am
              > still eternally grateful for.

              I'm glad that Eckankar could help you in this regard. I have heard
              many people express this as well. I feel so sad when I hear about
              people who were abused as children, and I wish there were more
              protection for children in our society.


              >
              > However, after enjoying an all to brief period in my early
              twenties,
              > when, for the first time in my life, I truly felt healed and whole,
              > and full of genuine self love, the whole Darwin thing came crashing
              > down around me. This was, of course, in the early 1980s.
              >
              > I never really was able to find that same center inside myself with
              > the Eck teachings that I had found for that brief time after the
              whole
              > Darwin crash happened. I trudged along as best I could, and
              constantly
              > tried to find that again. Life was still much, much better than it
              > had been before I first found Eckankar, but I had lost that deep
              sense
              > of balance and self love that I had so enjoyed for that brief time.
              >

              It was because of the doubt you developed early on in the org., I
              believe. Many people were not troubled by the Darwin/Harold event
              and just kept believing. Your intuitive senses were aware of the red
              flags here, it seems. You still wanted to believe because the belief
              had helped to balance you, and perhaps you feared going back to
              square one if you let go of the belief.


              > Then in the late 80s, I encountered first hand, very direct,
              dramatic,
              > experiences with UFOs, and then, subsequently, encounters with very
              > nasty people that wished to silence me from discussing these
              > experiences, or asking too many questions about them. This was in
              no
              > way self-delusional, as these kinds of things were experienced by
              > literally hundreds of people in New York's Hudson Valley area
              during
              > this time. There are 3 books written about all of this that are
              > available on Amazon.com, but all of this is another story for
              another
              > post at some other time.

              I am looking forward to hear about this experience.


              >
              > In any event, it was these experiences that led to reading books by
              > David Icke, and a host of others, to try and understand just what
              the
              > hell was going on with all of this stuff. It really shook to me to
              my
              > core to learn first hand that there really are technologies that go
              > way beyond the laws of physics as we know them, and more
              importantly,
              > that I really didn't have a lot of the freedoms that I had been
              led to
              > believe that I had as an American citizen. That there were really
              > people out there that would threaten to kill me if I would not
              shut up
              > about what I had seen. If you haven't lived through these kinds of
              > experiences, then it is very difficult to understand what I really
              > mean, and what this does to you.

              I majored in history/government in college, and learned how most
              people do not understand what their real right are, or the lack of
              rights! How government works, in other words.


              >
              > So I guess my question for you guys is: What the hell IS out
              there, in
              > your opinion, that you can trust and work with, in addition to your
              > own higher selves, that is of a spiritual nature? I mean, you all
              seem
              > to be aware that higher spiritual realities do exist, and that
              there
              > is some truth to the fact that our government is not what it is
              > cracked up to be, which I certainly know first hand. But if
              Cassiopia,
              > David Icke, HCS, Eckankar, Michael Owens, and all the rest are just
              > more lies and traps, than what is out there that is real and
              > trustworthy?

              Truthdecider, the truth, as I see it, is what you perceive to be the
              truth. In other words, it is not other people's spins but what you
              are able to decipher and learn. If you are an honest individual,
              which I think you are, you should be able to trust your own beliefs--
              until they are no longer valid for you, that is. You don't need
              others to tell you what to think. Will you make mistakes or be
              mistaken? Of course, but you will be on the right course in finding
              the spiritual truths you are looking for. So, what is out there for
              you to believe in--it's you!

              Because, very sadly, even though I KNOW I AM SOUL on some
              > very deep level, my mind just doesn't seem to be able to learn to
              let
              > me love myself enough to not need some sort of external support
              system
              > at this point.
              >
              > I know that I am not the mind, and that I should be able to just
              not
              > be affected by it, and just move past it, and trust the real me,
              Soul.
              > However, the self-hate engrams that are still part of the mind seem
              > way too strong at times to let me do this.
              >
              > I have tried going to counseling on three separate occasions
              within
              > the last few years, but that has not worked out at all. The kind of
              > issues that I bring to the table seem to be way outside the scope
              of
              > what these therapists know how to deal with. I have literally blown
              > them all away, in one way or another, and I end up needing to stop
              going.
              >


              It is good that you recognize this problem and that you are trying
              to find solution to it. I wish I could help you, beyond telling you
              that you are a very kind, loving and valuable Soul!

              > I am at a loss, and I feel very frustrated and tired at this
              point. I
              > really don't know where to turn anymore. I hope that someone out
              there
              > can say something that will help guide me in the right direction.

              I'm glad that others have commented and offered some suggestions for
              you. I hope your frustration and fatigue are short-lived. I do know
              that laughter and fun is good therapy, especially when one is
              feeling down. Funny movies, joyful times with friends and family.
              And then there are people here open to discussion! : )


              Sorry I can't offer more than this. Your question, even though a
              good one, is difficult! I like your posts!

              Mish
            • l2eigh
              ... I feel very frustrated and tired at this point. I ... Hi Truthdecider: When I started posting on HCS/TS last year it was as R. After a couple of months I
              Message 6 of 15 , Jul 6, 2005
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                > So I guess my question for you guys is: What the hell IS out there, in
                > your opinion, that you can trust and work with, > I am at a loss, and
                I feel very frustrated and tired at this point. I
                > really don't know where to turn anymore. I hope that someone out there
                > can say something that will help guide me in the right direction.


                Hi Truthdecider:
                When I started posting on HCS/TS last year it was as R.
                After a couple of months I quit because there was nothing else to say.
                Then in January, Garland Peck posted something about Neanderthal Man
                and why Lemuria/Atlantis was bogus so I got interested again and posted
                this time in my first and last name Ralph Griffith, so... we "know" one
                another.
                I'm just responding to a couple of sentences from your
                post. Because (like the problem you outline) you can't bring it all
                inside and get an answer to it, find "the answers". You HAVE to get
                back to the core(that rocky road)and work with that. Letting all of
                these other things go. I'd go back to therapy and talk about your
                childhood problems (only) (if that's what everything is wound around).
                "What the hell is there out there to work with?" (as
                you say). There isn't anything. That's mistake one. It just widens and
                exascerbates the problem with your core, which is where the problem is
                and what the problem is with. You've GOT to find it again, resolve the
                rocky road of integrity for this small thing within you and DON'T let
                anything into it again. That's how this, all this thing, starts.
                There's the core (yours) and "everything else". And when you try to
                throw your arms around "everything else" and bring it into the core to
                resolve it, understand it (whatever)that's when everything goes wrong.
                Widening and expanding it just makes it worse. You may have delusional
                success at learning "higher stuff" for a while but the consequences of
                bringing all the outside into your center eventually catches up.
                Don't get me wrong, I like everyone in this group a lot
                but the only thing anyone can do with groups like this, usenet groups,
                bulletin boards, or find on them is an opinion, what serves as truth
                for the person posting. The answer's not "out there". There is no
                answer like that. What you've got to do is get back in touch with the
                tiny core of reality within yourself which is probably going to mean
                you've got to let go of all this other stuff, everything else.
                I'm going through some heavy stuff myself, now so I've
                stayed out of this, as I sure have enough on my own plate. But what
                you've said in this post I'm responding to is pretty specific in a
                couple of sentences. So, I don't know if it helps, but do what you can,
                and leave all this other poo alone. It just increases your own
                traumatic stress. Don't you think?
              • ctecvie
                Hello Ralph, great that it s you!! :-) When I first saw the e-mail address, I thought of you, because you had posted as Igrif on the BBs as well.But then I
                Message 7 of 15 , Jul 6, 2005
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                  Hello Ralph,

                  great that it's you!! :-) When I first saw the e-mail address, I
                  thought of you, because you had posted as "Igrif" on the BBs as
                  well.But then I dismissed this thought. I know of course that "R"
                  and "Ralph Griffith" are one and the same. :-)

                  So, I'm happy to have you here!
                  Ingrid

                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "l2eigh"
                  <lgrif@m...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > So I guess my question for you guys is: What the hell IS out
                  there, in
                  > > your opinion, that you can trust and work with, > I am at a
                  loss, and
                  > I feel very frustrated and tired at this point. I
                  > > really don't know where to turn anymore. I hope that someone out
                  there
                  > > can say something that will help guide me in the right direction.
                  >
                  >
                  > Hi Truthdecider:
                  > When I started posting on HCS/TS last year it was
                  as R.
                  > After a couple of months I quit because there was nothing else to
                  say.
                  > Then in January, Garland Peck posted something about Neanderthal
                  Man
                  > and why Lemuria/Atlantis was bogus so I got interested again and
                  posted
                  > this time in my first and last name Ralph Griffith, so...
                  we "know" one
                  > another.
                  > I'm just responding to a couple of sentences from
                  your
                  > post. Because (like the problem you outline) you can't bring it
                  all
                  > inside and get an answer to it, find "the answers". You HAVE to
                  get
                  > back to the core(that rocky road)and work with that. Letting all
                  of
                  > these other things go. I'd go back to therapy and talk about your
                  > childhood problems (only) (if that's what everything is wound
                  around).
                  > "What the hell is there out there to work with?"
                  (as
                  > you say). There isn't anything. That's mistake one. It just widens
                  and
                  > exascerbates the problem with your core, which is where the
                  problem is
                  > and what the problem is with. You've GOT to find it again, resolve
                  the
                  > rocky road of integrity for this small thing within you and DON'T
                  let
                  > anything into it again. That's how this, all this thing, starts.
                  > There's the core (yours) and "everything else". And when you try
                  to
                  > throw your arms around "everything else" and bring it into the
                  core to
                  > resolve it, understand it (whatever)that's when everything goes
                  wrong.
                  > Widening and expanding it just makes it worse. You may have
                  delusional
                  > success at learning "higher stuff" for a while but the
                  consequences of
                  > bringing all the outside into your center eventually catches up.
                  > Don't get me wrong, I like everyone in this group
                  a lot
                  > but the only thing anyone can do with groups like this, usenet
                  groups,
                  > bulletin boards, or find on them is an opinion, what serves as
                  truth
                  > for the person posting. The answer's not "out there". There is no
                  > answer like that. What you've got to do is get back in touch with
                  the
                  > tiny core of reality within yourself which is probably going to
                  mean
                  > you've got to let go of all this other stuff, everything else.
                  > I'm going through some heavy stuff myself, now so
                  I've
                  > stayed out of this, as I sure have enough on my own plate. But
                  what
                  > you've said in this post I'm responding to is pretty specific in a
                  > couple of sentences. So, I don't know if it helps, but do what you
                  can,
                  > and leave all this other poo alone. It just increases your own
                  > traumatic stress. Don't you think?
                • mishmisha9
                  Nice post! And like Ingrid said, good you are here! ... there, in ... loss, and ... there ... as R. ... say. ... Man ... posted ... we know one ... your ...
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jul 6, 2005
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                    Nice post! And like Ingrid said, good you are here!


                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "l2eigh"
                    <lgrif@m...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > So I guess my question for you guys is: What the hell IS out
                    there, in
                    > > your opinion, that you can trust and work with, > I am at a
                    loss, and
                    > I feel very frustrated and tired at this point. I
                    > > really don't know where to turn anymore. I hope that someone out
                    there
                    > > can say something that will help guide me in the right direction.
                    >
                    >
                    > Hi Truthdecider:
                    > When I started posting on HCS/TS last year it was
                    as R.
                    > After a couple of months I quit because there was nothing else to
                    say.
                    > Then in January, Garland Peck posted something about Neanderthal
                    Man
                    > and why Lemuria/Atlantis was bogus so I got interested again and
                    posted
                    > this time in my first and last name Ralph Griffith, so...
                    we "know" one
                    > another.
                    > I'm just responding to a couple of sentences from
                    your
                    > post. Because (like the problem you outline) you can't bring it
                    all
                    > inside and get an answer to it, find "the answers". You HAVE to
                    get
                    > back to the core(that rocky road)and work with that. Letting all
                    of
                    > these other things go. I'd go back to therapy and talk about your
                    > childhood problems (only) (if that's what everything is wound
                    around).
                    > "What the hell is there out there to work with?"
                    (as
                    > you say). There isn't anything. That's mistake one. It just widens
                    and
                    > exascerbates the problem with your core, which is where the
                    problem is
                    > and what the problem is with. You've GOT to find it again, resolve
                    the
                    > rocky road of integrity for this small thing within you and DON'T
                    let
                    > anything into it again. That's how this, all this thing, starts.
                    > There's the core (yours) and "everything else". And when you try
                    to
                    > throw your arms around "everything else" and bring it into the
                    core to
                    > resolve it, understand it (whatever)that's when everything goes
                    wrong.
                    > Widening and expanding it just makes it worse. You may have
                    delusional
                    > success at learning "higher stuff" for a while but the
                    consequences of
                    > bringing all the outside into your center eventually catches up.
                    > Don't get me wrong, I like everyone in this group
                    a lot
                    > but the only thing anyone can do with groups like this, usenet
                    groups,
                    > bulletin boards, or find on them is an opinion, what serves as
                    truth
                    > for the person posting. The answer's not "out there". There is no
                    > answer like that. What you've got to do is get back in touch with
                    the
                    > tiny core of reality within yourself which is probably going to
                    mean
                    > you've got to let go of all this other stuff, everything else.
                    > I'm going through some heavy stuff myself, now so
                    I've
                    > stayed out of this, as I sure have enough on my own plate. But
                    what
                    > you've said in this post I'm responding to is pretty specific in a
                    > couple of sentences. So, I don't know if it helps, but do what you
                    can,
                    > and leave all this other poo alone. It just increases your own
                    > traumatic stress. Don't you think?
                  • ctecvie
                    Hello Truthdecider, I think you have received excellent help from both the members here and on ET. Mish makes some very good points - I would have said many of
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jul 6, 2005
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                      Hello Truthdecider,

                      I think you have received excellent help from both the members here
                      and on ET. Mish makes some very good points - I would have said many
                      of it, too! :-) So that leaves me just some short remarks.

                      To self-hate: A technique that helped me a lot was when I wrote a
                      letter to myself, imagining how it would have been perfect for me.
                      This was a very powerful tool and helped change my past a bit. Of
                      course I wasn't an abused child or anything like that, just had
                      the "normal difficult" childhood.

                      I can confirm that Bach remedies help a lot to overcome
                      psychological issues. I took them, too and they helped me greatly. I
                      am planning to have a horoscope done, just to know where I am at the
                      moment because it's an image of my personal progress.

                      Basically, you can choose any therapy or remedy you want, the most
                      important thing is to be in tune with the therapy or remedy you
                      choose. No matter if you choose Bach flowers, homeopathy, books that
                      deal with special questions and issues you have, kinesiology, NLP,
                      etc. etc. - just tune in and enjoy what you are doing. And when you
                      feel that you have got what you needed, then just move on, and no
                      regrets.

                      Concerning your spiritual search, please go on - it's so important
                      to continue. I don't see the paths you tried as failures - you
                      learned from each of them. If you are interested in people like
                      Icke - that's ok because he will teach you what you need. I think
                      it's much more important to move on when it's done. So please,
                      please, don't be angry with yourself because everything is in
                      perfect order. I can see that you are absolutely open to life and to
                      other perspectives, and that's wonderful.

                      Happy moving on ...
                      Ingrid
                    • prometheus_973
                      Hi Truthdecider, It seems like the responses and advice to this post of yours were very good. There are many resources that can be looked at to discover what
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jul 6, 2005
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi Truthdecider,

                        It seems like the responses and advice to this post of yours were
                        very good. There are many resources that can be looked at to
                        discover what one needs in order to find one's own inner truth. Life
                        is difficult at various times for everyone, and sensitive people and
                        spiritual seekers have it much more difficult than those controlled
                        by their egos. But one should never give up, and never surrender!
                        And yet one must give up and surrender the things that prevent us
                        from growing and knowing who we truly are and why we are truly here.
                        One must also discover these truths on their own (mostly) and not
                        through another's truth. We can help each other, but only up to a
                        certain point. The responsibility to live, share and discover life's
                        mysteries and meaning lies without and within each Soul. In some
                        respects as long as one does no harm (at all) to others or to
                        oneself then that makes any experience into a spiritual lesson. You
                        must relax and enjoy the journey and not be in such a rush. There is
                        no race to God-Realization because God-Realization is in the clarity
                        of the moment. If one rushes around desparately looking here and
                        there then one can miss seeing the subtlies and changes that help us
                        see through the illusions. Yes it is all illusion, but there is also
                        the reality of Truth surrounding the illusion. The fact that you are
                        honest with yourself and have doubts and questions shows that your
                        ego is not so strong as to blind you from higher Truth. I think that
                        you are closer to answering your own questions than you think.

                        Prometheus


                        Truthdecider said:
                        >>So I guess my question for you guys is: What the hell IS out
                        there, in your opinion, that you can trust and work with, > I am at
                        a loss, and I feel very frustrated and tired at this point. I really
                        don't know where to turn anymore. I hope that someone out there can
                        say something that will help guide me in the right direction.
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