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Re: Ex-Initiator's Guide to Eck Initiations

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  • pretujari
    Hi All, Klemp spent 14 years in training and became a Mahanta/LEM of the 14th. His successor has spent 25years and counting in training and will only come in
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 5, 2007
      Hi All,
      Klemp spent 14 years in training and became a Mahanta/LEM of the
      14th. His successor has spent 25years and counting in training and
      will only come in as 12th Initiate LEM of the 'Mahanta
      Consciousness.' It just doesn't add up.
      Pretujari

      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
      <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi All,
      > I thought that I'd bring this back for more comments.
      >
      > I noticed that some chelas who were put on the RESA's
      > sh_t list were there for up to three years and, thus, had
      > their initiations delayed for three years. Some of these
      > RESAs are really into the three thing except, of course,
      > when doing their "five year (business) plan!" The ESC
      > just follows the lead of the RESAs and the RESAs follow
      > the gossip and recommendations of their friends who
      > are H.I.s.
      >
      > Also, at one time a life membership was $500, but this
      > was early on and for just a brief time period when quick
      > money was needed. However, just before DG was booted
      > Darwin reinstated the lifetime membership donation
      > for $1,000! DG took the money and ran while leaving HK
      > holding the bag. However, I'm told, that HK still requires
      > all of the lifetime members to renew each year or lose their
      > lifetime memberships! I haven't heard about the $2,000
      > lifetime memberships that Kent spoke of. Is that what
      > they cost now? What a scam! Especially, if one has to still
      > renew it each year or lose it!
      >
      > Anyway, it doesn't seem very "spiritual" does it? It's typical
      > for HK to preach about one thing and do the opposite!
      >
      > I found these quotes in the Shariyat 2, Ch.2, Books 1&2:
      >
      > "There will be those who call themselves ECK Masters and
      > disguise themselves under the robes of ECK, but they are
      > prophets with false faces who are lying to take in the
      > ECKists... in search of the material things of life: money,
      > health, and physical happiness."
      >
      > So, it seems that Paul was, basically, and maybe unknowingly
      > tying together some random insights to the future of ECKANKAR
      > and to his succesors! The irony is that Paul was more of the
      > Conman than the Godman and was, also, speaking of himself
      > and his own limitations.
      >
      > Yes, the seeker will find "the pseudogurus scattered throughout
      > the world... he will find false prophets and the so-called teachers
      > ... the paradox is that pure consciousness is simultaneously both
      > positive and negative... the light is darkness and darkness is
      light
      > and sound... both are the qualities of the ECK."
      >
      > With this kind of circular logic I can see how Twitchell was able
      > to justify his scam! Just make yourself into a indisputable "God"
      > or authority figure (LEM/Mahanta) and recreate history and reality
      > to suit your needs while attracting a following of needy, gullible,
      > trusting, spiritual seekers who have always felt like or have been
      > misfits in society, in orthodox religion, or within their own
      families.
      > Sell spiritual liberation while creating an admirable vocation for
      > yourself as Top Dog or as Top God!
      >
      > However, I must say that timing is everything. Perhaps this is also
      > why ECKANKAR membership numbers are dropping, and why there
      > is such a push to get the ECK Youth more brainwashed and to get
      > the Vahana (Missionary) volunteer army into the field of action. HK
      > is doing a "sell" of ECKANKAR and of himself that definitely goes
      > beyond just getting the normal word of mouth "message" out.
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > prometheus wrote:
      > >
      > Hi Kent,
      > I agree, the ECK Initiations are bogus. It is strange how
      > Klemp has stated that a Chela grows "into" their initiation
      > years after receiving it on the outer. Therefore, a 5th wouldn't
      > know that they had completed the tests, lessons, etc. of the
      > 5th until they received the 6th! Yet, in the Masters 4 Discourse,
      > Lesson 2 on The Ninth Initiation, HK states that the Initiation
      > is NOT completed until the third and final stage of confirmation
      > is given on the outer. Thus, there are two "inner" stages and
      > one "outer" stage for the 9th initiation.
      > >
      > Maybe HK's other explanation came about when Gross was
      > kicked to the curb, but sent out 500 Higher Initiations before
      > he left! HK said these chelas weren't supposed to get promoted,
      > but would work with them (on the inner) to bring them up to
      > speed or up to that level of delusion. Still, it doesn't explain
      > why people skipped initiations or only served a few months in
      > one before receiving the next one! Klemp never addressed that
      > issue since he too benefited and experienced that same thing via
      > DG.
      > >
      > One would think that one explanation should apply to all, but
      > Klemp changes things as he sees fit because he can! It's a
      > tough job to keep his and Paul's nonsense sorted out. Then
      > again, keeping ECKists off balance and confused is part
      > of the plan. If people can accept all sorts and all amounts of
      > crap via blind faith and imagination then why be concerned?
      > Besides, ECKists see it as a test... or a paradox... or as just
      > Lower World Mental expressions that are limiting. The "inner"
      > is the only true reality for them... right? I always found it
      > interesting how PT would give people a heads up to truth
      > on occasion. It's like a thief telling you not to forget to lock
      > your doors. Now wouldn't you assume a guy like that was
      > to be trusted?
      > >
      > Here's a supposed quote from Shamus-i-Tabriz from a
      > chela's dream: "Little do we realize how our expectations
      > shape our experiences and reality." [pg. 88, TWEM]
      > >
      > Now, if only ECKists could see the truth of that statement!
      > >
      > Prometheus
      > >
      > Kent wrote:
      > > >
      > Ex-Initiator's Guide to Initiations
      > > >
      > [I've posted an earlier version of this before, and with the
      > discussion of secret words that has been ongoing on another group,
      I
      > thought this might be a good time to repost this. I've revised
      this,
      > and added rebuttles to comments Eckists have made to the original.-
      > K.A.]
      > > >
      > When I received the sixth initiation, I had essentially already
      > decided to leave Eckankar. I was still hanging on out of some
      slight
      > uncertainty, and also had decided to maintain my membership due to
      > the fact that my partner, Lisa, still remained loyal to Eckankar. A
      > year or two had passed while I was in this state of serious doubt
      and
      > skepticism, when the pink slip for the sixth initiation came. I was
      > surprised to say the least. Yet I wasn't too surprised. This
      > confirmed what I already suspected: Initiations are not overseen or
      > approved by a Mahanta or some omniscient being, but by a computer,
      > with the assistance of initiate reports, and recommendations by the
      > local Resa and other local High Initiates. I remained in Eckankar
      for
      > years after this, until the day my mate felt as I did, and we both
      > resigned.
      > > >
      > Lest there are those in Eckankar who don't yet know this, lists are
      > periodically sent out with names generated by a computer to the
      state
      > Resa (Regional Eck Spiritual Aid), who confers with local High
      > Initiates to either recommend or not, an initiation (Klemp himself
      > wrote of the computers producing the initiation lists a while back
      as
      > I recall). Around the time I left Eckankar, most Eckists were
      > automatically placed on the list every four or five years or so. If
      > for some reason an Eckist was denied, they would usually show up
      > again on the next year's list. Local H.I.'s in my area (including
      > myself) would routinely talk over the names on the list via the
      > telephone, and give their recommendations to the Resa according to
      > each chela's loyalty and degree of outer service to the org. Those
      > who were especially "troublesome" could be denied the initiation.
      The
      > Resa emphasized loyalty as the most important trait. The results
      from
      > the Resa are sent back to Minneapolis HQ where assistants appointed
      > by Harold approve or deny the initiation based on such things as
      the
      > time served as a dues paying member, the Resa recommendations, and
      > initiate reports. Some, including myself, have observed that
      initiate
      > reports (especially those which are positive or are written in
      praise
      > of the org) definitely can play a role in the initiation approval
      > process.
      > > >
      > Despite this, few people were denied an initiation if they were on
      > the list. Eckankar has a very liberal policy toward initiations. I
      > noticed that those who followed the disciplines well fared no
      better
      > or worse than those who didn't. I noticed people who smoked, drank
      or
      > never did their exercises stood just as great a chance of receiving
      > the fifth initiation as anyone <G>. More than anything, the
      > initiations were awarded based on time as a member. The rate at
      which
      > initiations were received could be accelerated or delayed based on
      > the chelas relationship with local H.I.'s and, especially, the
      state
      > Resa, who has a great deal of influence in such matters.
      > > >
      > And one other thing is clear: Those who do not substantially
      conform
      > to the expectations of the group are the ones most likely to be
      > denied an initiation. Despite this, the H.I.'s or Resa's in
      different
      > areas may vary in their tolerance levels, which accounts for the
      > stories heard about individuals who never received initiations in
      one
      > locale suddenly begin to receive them after moving to another area.
      > Also, I've witnessed initiations being approved after three or four
      > H.I's gave their unsolicited recommendations to Spiritual Services
      on
      > behalf of certain chelas who were thought of as exceptionally
      > deserving.
      > > >
      > I once had a friend who was extremely devoted to Eckankar, who had
      > lived in a remote area during most of her time as a member, and
      > didn't realize Eckankar's policy that time served as a dues paying
      > member counted toward initiation. As a result, she didn't receive
      > initiations for years do to the fact that she kept forgetting to
      > renew her membership, thinking such things to be of the material
      > worlds! She had no idea such trivialities mattered to the
      omniscient
      > Mahanta! This woman had a life membership (at one time you could
      pay
      > a large one time fee, $2,000, for a membership for life) but was
      > still required to notify Eckankar of her intent to renew annually,
      > though no additional fee was required. She didn't think such
      > formalities were all that important, and as a result, due to a less
      > than exemplary membership record, received no initiations beyond
      the
      > second, despite years of devotion to Eckankar. One often may hear
      > Eckists parroting that such outer initiations matter little, yet
      > privately, most Eckists seem to feel very strongly about the
      > initiations they are awarded.
      > > >
      > This isn't spoken of very much out in the open in Eckankar, but
      > people such as the woman in the example can become quite
      > disillusioned and depressed over not keeping up with their peers,
      > feeling left behind, unwanted, and forgotten by the Mahanta. They
      see
      > others who are seemingly less deserving receiving initiations,
      > whereas they, despite being very devoted to Eckankar and the
      > associated disciplines, seem to fall hopelessly behind. Due to
      > Eckankar's policy that one not ever request initiations, many
      suffer
      > in silence, sensing justifiably that something isn't quite right,
      yet
      > fear to even ask about the possibility of an error. In many cases,
      > even when they do ask, they face a stony silence from the org, or
      are
      > told they are being "tested" spiritually, when all that is needed
      is
      > a quick check of the record. This is one of the way's such a system
      > can inflict undue pain upon its members, and is one reason I am
      > taking the time to write about this in detail.
      > > >
      > Think about the numbers involved in the initiation approval
      process.
      > If there are, as claimed, 50,000 members in the org, and each is
      > considered for an initiation every five years or so, then that
      would
      > average 10,000 per year, or 833 per month, or about 40 per day
      > (excluding weekends), or about one initiation to be approved every
      10
      > to 15 minutes in an average eight hour day. Klemp would have to
      work
      > full time on initiations every day for the rest of his life to
      spend
      > 10 to 15 minutes every five years on the "individual" member (do
      the
      > math and see for yourself). Klemp has said that he checks the inner
      > akashic and soul records to make such a choice. Remember that this
      > would have to be done to merely consider a person for initiation,
      > that is, to give each chela the individual attention and
      > consideration that is due, whether or not the chela is actually
      > approved for initiation.
      > > >
      > Klemp would have to live out of the body most of his life to
      > accomplish such a feat. He would have no time for seminars, writing
      > his constant supply of books, writing his speeches, eating,
      drinking,
      > sleeping, going to meetings, running the corporation, etc. For
      those
      > who argue that such reading of soul records does not take time,
      > consider that Klemp has discontinued private requests for
      > consultations to do soul readings because, according to him, it
      takes
      > hours to accomplish an accurate reading of the soul records of just
      > one person. Thus, a mere fifteen minutes would not be sufficient to
      > approve an initiation, even if he did spend all day, every day of
      his
      > life approving initiations. Think about this!
      > > >
      > From this it can be deduced that Klemp has, for the most part,
      > nothing to do with the initiations, other than, perhaps, performing
      a
      > perfunctory blessing of them in the eckankar offices to fool the
      > membership. He simply doesn't have the time.
      > > >
      > Remember this key point: It's a fact that someone would have to act
      > on the physical plane to approve the initiations and physically
      send
      > out pink slips. No matter how you slice it, this person (or more
      > likely, persons) is not the Living Eck Master, but rather, several
      > paid employees.
      > > >
      > Some people argue that the true initiations are "inner," and
      > therefore the outer initiations are not the true initiations. The
      > fallacy in the logic of this argument is that Twitchell originally
      > stated that the inner initiation comes before the outer, due to the
      > principle of "as above, so below," which means that outer events
      > occur on the inner first, manifesting outwardly later. Klemp has
      > attempted to confuse people by reversing this, claiming that it
      takes
      > time to grow into an initiation. But here Klemp contradicts
      himself,
      > since Klemp has expressly stated in writing that he personally
      > approves the outer initiations by reading the inner soul records.
      > This means the person receiving the outer initiation would have,
      > according to Klemp's own written statements, already have the inner
      > preparation, and thus would have received the inner initiation. It
      is
      > absurd to conclude that Klemp, in taking time to read the soul
      > records to approve the outer initiation, would not include as part
      of
      > that time and effort the giving of the actual inner initiation, if
      > after having read the soul records it was determined the chela was
      > eligible for the initiation. Thus, the logic that the inner and
      outer
      > initiations are separate and not inextricably linked is denied in
      > statements by Eckankar's only presumed authority, the Living Eck
      > Master, Harold Klemp. And the obvious fact is, Klemp would not have
      > the requisite time that he has stated is necessary to read so many
      > soul records each day of his life. He has been caught up in his own
      > contradictory statements and revealed himself to be a fraud.
      > > >
      > Thus, the initiations are entirely bogus. They represent nothing
      more
      > than organizational status. Observe the behavior of the online
      > clergy. These are not enlightened beings. They are ordinary people
      > caught up in the throes of everyday life, like most people are in
      the
      > rest of the world.
      > > >
      > Kent
      >
    • mishmisha9
      ... The other was an elderly woman ... *********************************************************************** Pretujari, this story about the elderly woman
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 5, 2007
        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "pretujari"
        <pretujari@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Hello,
        > This reminds me of two scenerios regarding the initiations. One was
        > to do with a couple. The husband was really perplexed when the pink
        > slip came for him and the wife for their 4th. According to the man,
        > he never understood why his wife also received the 4th because she
        > was quarrellsome, never practiced her spiritual exercises, nor had
        > much time for Eckankar.He told me this when I explained the truth
        > about the eckankar initiations to him.


        The other was an elderly woman
        > who was very close to me . She confided in me amidst tears that she
        > had stayed in the 3rd initiation for years. As she cried while
        > narrating this, she wondered why and what she had done, since others
        > who came after her had bypassed her in initiations. Unfortunately,
        > she did not live long enough to know the truth. Am sure all has been
        > made clear to her on the other side.
        > Pretujari.
        >

        ***********************************************************************

        Pretujari, this story about the elderly woman demonstrates why
        eckankar is not a benign cult! It is really sad that she was so
        tormented about making those initiation levels up until her time
        of passing! Shame on Klemp and his fraudulent org for sucking
        the life out of innocent Souls who just want to achieve a sincere
        connection with God! I feel both sad and angry to think of this
        woman's sorrow--it's not a good way to live one's life feeling passed
        over like that!

        Klemp will ultimately pay for his lies and deceptions! He talks about
        fear so I have to wonder if he doesn't suffer from real fears in
        knowing that he has been committing these great spiritual crimes?

        Eckankar is not harmless in that it does damage Souls.

        Mish

        **************************************************************************

        >
        >
        >
        > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater"
        > <tianyue@> wrote:
        > >
        >
        >
        > > Ex-Initiator's Guide to Initiations
        > >
        > > [I've posted an earlier version of this before, and with the
        > > discussion of secret words that has been ongoing on another group,
        > I
        > > thought this might be a good time to repost this. I've revised
        > this,
        > > and added rebuttles to comments Eckists have made to the original.-
        > > K.A.]
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > When I received the sixth initiation, I had essentially already
        > > decided to leave Eckankar. I was still hanging on out of some
        > slight
        > > uncertainty, and also had decided to maintain my membership due to
        > > the fact that my partner, Lisa, still remained loyal to Eckankar. A
        > > year or two had passed while I was in this state of serious doubt
        > and
        > > skepticism, when the pink slip for the sixth initiation came. I was
        > > surprised to say the least. Yet I wasn't too surprised. This
        > > confirmed what I already suspected: Initiations are not overseen or
        > > approved by a Mahanta or some omniscient being, but by a computer,
        > > with the assistance of initiate reports, and recommendations by the
        > > local Resa and other local High Initiates. I remained in Eckankar
        > for
        > > years after this, until the day my mate felt as I did, and we both
        > > resigned.
        > >
        > > Lest there are those in Eckankar who don't yet know this, lists are
        > > periodically sent out with names generated by a computer to the
        > state
        > > Resa (Regional Eck Spiritual Aid), who confers with local High
        > > Initiates to either recommend or not, an initiation (Klemp himself
        > > wrote of the computers producing the initiation lists a while back
        > as
        > > I recall). Around the time I left Eckankar, most Eckists were
        > > automatically placed on the list every four or five years or so. If
        > > for some reason an Eckist was denied, they would usually show up
        > > again on the next year's list. Local H.I.'s in my area (including
        > > myself) would routinely talk over the names on the list via the
        > > telephone, and give their recommendations to the Resa according to
        > > each chela's loyalty and degree of outer service to the org. Those
        > > who were especially "troublesome" could be denied the initiation.
        > The
        > > Resa emphasized loyalty as the most important trait. The results
        > from
        > > the Resa are sent back to Minneapolis HQ where assistants appointed
        > > by Harold approve or deny the initiation based on such things as
        > the
        > > time served as a dues paying member, the Resa recommendations, and
        > > initiate reports. Some, including myself, have observed that
        > initiate
        > > reports (especially those which are positive or are written in
        > praise
        > > of the org) definitely can play a role in the initiation approval
        > > process.
        > >
        > > Despite this, few people were denied an initiation if they were on
        > > the list. Eckankar has a very liberal policy toward initiations. I
        > > noticed that those who followed the disciplines well fared no
        > better
        > > or worse than those who didn't. I noticed people who smoked, drank
        > or
        > > never did their exercises stood just as great a chance of receiving
        > > the fifth initiation as anyone <G>. More than anything, the
        > > initiations were awarded based on time as a member. The rate at
        > which
        > > initiations were received could be accelerated or delayed based on
        > > the chelas relationship with local H.I.'s and, especially, the
        > state
        > > Resa, who has a great deal of influence in such matters.
        > >
        > > And one other thing is clear: Those who do not substantially
        > conform
        > > to the expectations of the group are the ones most likely to be
        > > denied an initiation. Despite this, the H.I.'s or Resa's in
        > different
        > > areas may vary in their tolerance levels, which accounts for the
        > > stories heard about individuals who never received initiations in
        > one
        > > locale suddenly begin to receive them after moving to another area.
        > > Also, I've witnessed initiations being approved after three or four
        > > H.I's gave their unsolicited recommendations to Spiritual Services
        > on
        > > behalf of certain chelas who were thought of as exceptionally
        > > deserving.
        > >
        > > I once had a friend who was extremely devoted to Eckankar, who had
        > > lived in a remote area during most of her time as a member, and
        > > didn't realize Eckankar's policy that time served as a dues paying
        > > member counted toward initiation. As a result, she didn't receive
        > > initiations for years do to the fact that she kept forgetting to
        > > renew her membership, thinking such things to be of the material
        > > worlds! She had no idea such trivialities mattered to the
        > omniscient
        > > Mahanta! This woman had a life membership (at one time you could
        > pay
        > > a large one time fee, $2,000, for a membership for life) but was
        > > still required to notify Eckankar of her intent to renew annually,
        > > though no additional fee was required. She didn't think such
        > > formalities were all that important, and as a result, due to a less
        > > than exemplary membership record, received no initiations beyond
        > the
        > > second, despite years of devotion to Eckankar. One often may hear
        > > Eckists parroting that such outer initiations matter little, yet
        > > privately, most Eckists seem to feel very strongly about the
        > > initiations they are awarded.
        > >
        > > This isn't spoken of very much out in the open in Eckankar, but
        > > people such as the woman in the example can become quite
        > > disillusioned and depressed over not keeping up with their peers,
        > > feeling left behind, unwanted, and forgotten by the Mahanta. They
        > see
        > > others who are seemingly less deserving receiving initiations,
        > > whereas they, despite being very devoted to Eckankar and the
        > > associated disciplines, seem to fall hopelessly behind. Due to
        > > Eckankar's policy that one not ever request initiations, many
        > suffer
        > > in silence, sensing justifiably that something isn't quite right,
        > yet
        > > fear to even ask about the possibility of an error. In many cases,
        > > even when they do ask, they face a stony silence from the org, or
        > are
        > > told they are being "tested" spiritually, when all that is needed
        > is
        > > a quick check of the record. This is one of the way's such a system
        > > can inflict undue pain upon its members, and is one reason I am
        > > taking the time to write about this in detail.
        > >
        > > Think about the numbers involved in the initiation approval
        > process.
        > > If there are, as claimed, 50,000 members in the org, and each is
        > > considered for an initiation every five years or so, then that
        > would
        > > average 10,000 per year, or 833 per month, or about 40 per day
        > > (excluding weekends), or about one initiation to be approved every
        > 10
        > > to 15 minutes in an average eight hour day. Klemp would have to
        > work
        > > full time on initiations every day for the rest of his life to
        > spend
        > > 10 to 15 minutes every five years on the "individual" member (do
        > the
        > > math and see for yourself). Klemp has said that he checks the inner
        > > akashic and soul records to make such a choice. Remember that this
        > > would have to be done to merely consider a person for initiation,
        > > that is, to give each chela the individual attention and
        > > consideration that is due, whether or not the chela is actually
        > > approved for initiation.
        > >
        > > Klemp would have to live out of the body most of his life to
        > > accomplish such a feat. He would have no time for seminars, writing
        > > his constant supply of books, writing his speeches, eating,
        > drinking,
        > > sleeping, going to meetings, running the corporation, etc. For
        > those
        > > who argue that such reading of soul records does not take time,
        > > consider that Klemp has discontinued private requests for
        > > consultations to do soul readings because, according to him, it
        > takes
        > > hours to accomplish an accurate reading of the soul records of just
        > > one person. Thus, a mere fifteen minutes would not be sufficient to
        > > approve an initiation, even if he did spend all day, every day of
        > his
        > > life approving initiations. Think about this!
        > >
        > > From this it can be deduced that Klemp has, for the most part,
        > > nothing to do with the initiations, other than, perhaps, performing
        > a
        > > perfunctory blessing of them in the eckankar offices to fool the
        > > membership. He simply doesn't have the time.
        > >
        > > Remember this key point: It's a fact that someone would have to act
        > > on the physical plane to approve the initiations and physically
        > send
        > > out pink slips. No matter how you slice it, this person (or more
        > > likely, persons) is not the Living Eck Master, but rather, several
        > > paid employees.
        > >
        > > Some people argue that the true initiations are "inner," and
        > > therefore the outer initiations are not the true initiations. The
        > > fallacy in the logic of this argument is that Twitchell originally
        > > stated that the inner initiation comes before the outer, due to the
        > > principle of "as above, so below," which means that outer events
        > > occur on the inner first, manifesting outwardly later. Klemp has
        > > attempted to confuse people by reversing this, claiming that it
        > takes
        > > time to grow into an initiation. But here Klemp contradicts
        > himself,
        > > since Klemp has expressly stated in writing that he personally
        > > approves the outer initiations by reading the inner soul records.
        > > This means the person receiving the outer initiation would have,
        > > according to Klemp's own written statements, already have the inner
        > > preparation, and thus would have received the inner initiation. It
        > is
        > > absurd to conclude that Klemp, in taking time to read the soul
        > > records to approve the outer initiation, would not include as part
        > of
        > > that time and effort the giving of the actual inner initiation, if
        > > after having read the soul records it was determined the chela was
        > > eligible for the initiation. Thus, the logic that the inner and
        > outer
        > > initiations are separate and not inextricably linked is denied in
        > > statements by Eckankar's only presumed authority, the Living Eck
        > > Master, Harold Klemp. And the obvious fact is, Klemp would not have
        > > the requisite time that he has stated is necessary to read so many
        > > soul records each day of his life. He has been caught up in his own
        > > contradictory statements and revealed himself to be a fraud.
        > >
        > > Thus, the initiations are entirely bogus. They represent nothing
        > more
        > > than organizational status. Observe the behavior of the online
        > > clergy. These are not enlightened beings. They are ordinary people
        > > caught up in the throes of everyday life, like most people are in
        > the
        > > rest of the world.
        > >
        > > Kent
        > >
        >
      • tomleafeater
        ... woman ... others ... been ... Thanks for the reply, Pretujari. Yes, you have captured well the meaning of the story in my post with your own anecdotes.
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 5, 2007
          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "pretujari"
          <pretujari@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Hello,
          > This reminds me of two scenerios regarding the initiations. One was
          > to do with a couple. The husband was really perplexed when the pink
          > slip came for him and the wife for their 4th. According to the man,
          > he never understood why his wife also received the 4th because she
          > was quarrellsome, never practiced her spiritual exercises, nor had
          > much time for Eckankar.He told me this when I explained the truth
          > about the eckankar initiations to him. The other was an elderly
          woman
          > who was very close to me . She confided in me amidst tears that she
          > had stayed in the 3rd initiation for years. As she cried while
          > narrating this, she wondered why and what she had done, since
          others
          > who came after her had bypassed her in initiations. Unfortunately,
          > she did not live long enough to know the truth. Am sure all has
          been
          > made clear to her on the other side.
          > Pretujari.




          Thanks for the reply, Pretujari. Yes, you have captured well the
          meaning of the story in my post with your own anecdotes. Frankly,
          during my 28 years in eckankar I'd witnessed many such individuals
          who sincerely wanted to find enlightenment only to become caught up
          in the completely unfair initiation process. People in eckankar like
          to pretend they are "detached" about such things, but the real truth
          is that the initiations become very important milestones to eckists,
          and when they are unfairly awarded, which they are, serious affects
          occur in members.

          Again, thanks for your great reply. I think your post really helps to
          bring out the harmful effects of the bogus "initiations" on members.

          Kent




          >
          > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater"
          > <tianyue@> wrote:
          > >
          >
          >
          > > Ex-Initiator's Guide to Initiations
          > >
          > > [I've posted an earlier version of this before, and with the
          > > discussion of secret words that has been ongoing on another
          group,
          > I
          > > thought this might be a good time to repost this. I've revised
          > this,
          > > and added rebuttles to comments Eckists have made to the
          original.-
          > > K.A.]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > When I received the sixth initiation, I had essentially already
          > > decided to leave Eckankar. I was still hanging on out of some
          > slight
          > > uncertainty, and also had decided to maintain my membership due
          to
          > > the fact that my partner, Lisa, still remained loyal to Eckankar.
          A
          > > year or two had passed while I was in this state of serious doubt
          > and
          > > skepticism, when the pink slip for the sixth initiation came. I
          was
          > > surprised to say the least. Yet I wasn't too surprised. This
          > > confirmed what I already suspected: Initiations are not overseen
          or
          > > approved by a Mahanta or some omniscient being, but by a
          computer,
          > > with the assistance of initiate reports, and recommendations by
          the
          > > local Resa and other local High Initiates. I remained in Eckankar
          > for
          > > years after this, until the day my mate felt as I did, and we
          both
          > > resigned.
          > >
          > > Lest there are those in Eckankar who don't yet know this, lists
          are
          > > periodically sent out with names generated by a computer to the
          > state
          > > Resa (Regional Eck Spiritual Aid), who confers with local High
          > > Initiates to either recommend or not, an initiation (Klemp
          himself
          > > wrote of the computers producing the initiation lists a while
          back
          > as
          > > I recall). Around the time I left Eckankar, most Eckists were
          > > automatically placed on the list every four or five years or so.
          If
          > > for some reason an Eckist was denied, they would usually show up
          > > again on the next year's list. Local H.I.'s in my area (including
          > > myself) would routinely talk over the names on the list via the
          > > telephone, and give their recommendations to the Resa according
          to
          > > each chela's loyalty and degree of outer service to the org.
          Those
          > > who were especially "troublesome" could be denied the initiation.
          > The
          > > Resa emphasized loyalty as the most important trait. The results
          > from
          > > the Resa are sent back to Minneapolis HQ where assistants
          appointed
          > > by Harold approve or deny the initiation based on such things as
          > the
          > > time served as a dues paying member, the Resa recommendations,
          and
          > > initiate reports. Some, including myself, have observed that
          > initiate
          > > reports (especially those which are positive or are written in
          > praise
          > > of the org) definitely can play a role in the initiation approval
          > > process.
          > >
          > > Despite this, few people were denied an initiation if they were
          on
          > > the list. Eckankar has a very liberal policy toward initiations.
          I
          > > noticed that those who followed the disciplines well fared no
          > better
          > > or worse than those who didn't. I noticed people who smoked,
          drank
          > or
          > > never did their exercises stood just as great a chance of
          receiving
          > > the fifth initiation as anyone <G>. More than anything, the
          > > initiations were awarded based on time as a member. The rate at
          > which
          > > initiations were received could be accelerated or delayed based
          on
          > > the chelas relationship with local H.I.'s and, especially, the
          > state
          > > Resa, who has a great deal of influence in such matters.
          > >
          > > And one other thing is clear: Those who do not substantially
          > conform
          > > to the expectations of the group are the ones most likely to be
          > > denied an initiation. Despite this, the H.I.'s or Resa's in
          > different
          > > areas may vary in their tolerance levels, which accounts for the
          > > stories heard about individuals who never received initiations in
          > one
          > > locale suddenly begin to receive them after moving to another
          area.
          > > Also, I've witnessed initiations being approved after three or
          four
          > > H.I's gave their unsolicited recommendations to Spiritual
          Services
          > on
          > > behalf of certain chelas who were thought of as exceptionally
          > > deserving.
          > >
          > > I once had a friend who was extremely devoted to Eckankar, who
          had
          > > lived in a remote area during most of her time as a member, and
          > > didn't realize Eckankar's policy that time served as a dues
          paying
          > > member counted toward initiation. As a result, she didn't receive
          > > initiations for years do to the fact that she kept forgetting to
          > > renew her membership, thinking such things to be of the material
          > > worlds! She had no idea such trivialities mattered to the
          > omniscient
          > > Mahanta! This woman had a life membership (at one time you could
          > pay
          > > a large one time fee, $2,000, for a membership for life) but was
          > > still required to notify Eckankar of her intent to renew
          annually,
          > > though no additional fee was required. She didn't think such
          > > formalities were all that important, and as a result, due to a
          less
          > > than exemplary membership record, received no initiations beyond
          > the
          > > second, despite years of devotion to Eckankar. One often may hear
          > > Eckists parroting that such outer initiations matter little, yet
          > > privately, most Eckists seem to feel very strongly about the
          > > initiations they are awarded.
          > >
          > > This isn't spoken of very much out in the open in Eckankar, but
          > > people such as the woman in the example can become quite
          > > disillusioned and depressed over not keeping up with their peers,
          > > feeling left behind, unwanted, and forgotten by the Mahanta. They
          > see
          > > others who are seemingly less deserving receiving initiations,
          > > whereas they, despite being very devoted to Eckankar and the
          > > associated disciplines, seem to fall hopelessly behind. Due to
          > > Eckankar's policy that one not ever request initiations, many
          > suffer
          > > in silence, sensing justifiably that something isn't quite right,
          > yet
          > > fear to even ask about the possibility of an error. In many
          cases,
          > > even when they do ask, they face a stony silence from the org, or
          > are
          > > told they are being "tested" spiritually, when all that is needed
          > is
          > > a quick check of the record. This is one of the way's such a
          system
          > > can inflict undue pain upon its members, and is one reason I am
          > > taking the time to write about this in detail.
          > >
          > > Think about the numbers involved in the initiation approval
          > process.
          > > If there are, as claimed, 50,000 members in the org, and each is
          > > considered for an initiation every five years or so, then that
          > would
          > > average 10,000 per year, or 833 per month, or about 40 per day
          > > (excluding weekends), or about one initiation to be approved
          every
          > 10
          > > to 15 minutes in an average eight hour day. Klemp would have to
          > work
          > > full time on initiations every day for the rest of his life to
          > spend
          > > 10 to 15 minutes every five years on the "individual" member (do
          > the
          > > math and see for yourself). Klemp has said that he checks the
          inner
          > > akashic and soul records to make such a choice. Remember that
          this
          > > would have to be done to merely consider a person for initiation,
          > > that is, to give each chela the individual attention and
          > > consideration that is due, whether or not the chela is actually
          > > approved for initiation.
          > >
          > > Klemp would have to live out of the body most of his life to
          > > accomplish such a feat. He would have no time for seminars,
          writing
          > > his constant supply of books, writing his speeches, eating,
          > drinking,
          > > sleeping, going to meetings, running the corporation, etc. For
          > those
          > > who argue that such reading of soul records does not take time,
          > > consider that Klemp has discontinued private requests for
          > > consultations to do soul readings because, according to him, it
          > takes
          > > hours to accomplish an accurate reading of the soul records of
          just
          > > one person. Thus, a mere fifteen minutes would not be sufficient
          to
          > > approve an initiation, even if he did spend all day, every day of
          > his
          > > life approving initiations. Think about this!
          > >
          > > From this it can be deduced that Klemp has, for the most part,
          > > nothing to do with the initiations, other than, perhaps,
          performing
          > a
          > > perfunctory blessing of them in the eckankar offices to fool the
          > > membership. He simply doesn't have the time.
          > >
          > > Remember this key point: It's a fact that someone would have to
          act
          > > on the physical plane to approve the initiations and physically
          > send
          > > out pink slips. No matter how you slice it, this person (or more
          > > likely, persons) is not the Living Eck Master, but rather,
          several
          > > paid employees.
          > >
          > > Some people argue that the true initiations are "inner," and
          > > therefore the outer initiations are not the true initiations. The
          > > fallacy in the logic of this argument is that Twitchell
          originally
          > > stated that the inner initiation comes before the outer, due to
          the
          > > principle of "as above, so below," which means that outer events
          > > occur on the inner first, manifesting outwardly later. Klemp has
          > > attempted to confuse people by reversing this, claiming that it
          > takes
          > > time to grow into an initiation. But here Klemp contradicts
          > himself,
          > > since Klemp has expressly stated in writing that he personally
          > > approves the outer initiations by reading the inner soul records.
          > > This means the person receiving the outer initiation would have,
          > > according to Klemp's own written statements, already have the
          inner
          > > preparation, and thus would have received the inner initiation.
          It
          > is
          > > absurd to conclude that Klemp, in taking time to read the soul
          > > records to approve the outer initiation, would not include as
          part
          > of
          > > that time and effort the giving of the actual inner initiation,
          if
          > > after having read the soul records it was determined the chela
          was
          > > eligible for the initiation. Thus, the logic that the inner and
          > outer
          > > initiations are separate and not inextricably linked is denied in
          > > statements by Eckankar's only presumed authority, the Living Eck
          > > Master, Harold Klemp. And the obvious fact is, Klemp would not
          have
          > > the requisite time that he has stated is necessary to read so
          many
          > > soul records each day of his life. He has been caught up in his
          own
          > > contradictory statements and revealed himself to be a fraud.
          > >
          > > Thus, the initiations are entirely bogus. They represent nothing
          > more
          > > than organizational status. Observe the behavior of the online
          > > clergy. These are not enlightened beings. They are ordinary
          people
          > > caught up in the throes of everyday life, like most people are in
          > the
          > > rest of the world.
          > >
          > > Kent
          > >
          >
        • prometheus_973
          The arbitrary way in which the ECK Initiations come to ECKists proves that there is no inner communication with their Master. There is no equality of
          Message 4 of 11 , Feb 6, 2007
            The arbitrary way in which the ECK Initiations come to
            ECKists proves that there is no inner communication
            with their Master. There is no equality of consciousness
            within the same Circle of Initiation! It's not even close!
            Therefore, how can there be any truth in the words:
            'I am always with you.' It's a lie that innocent people
            have willingly bought into because they want and need
            to believe in the lie of religion. And, the Eckankar religion
            may be different and unique and give more answers when
            compared to most other religions, but that doesn't mean
            it's all true. Except for the LEM/Mahanta, the Initiations,
            and the ECK Masters much of what Twitchell "compiled"
            has some merit for Soul's individual investigation/journey.

            Prometheus


            pretujari wrote:
            > >

            Hello,
            This reminds me of two scenerios regarding the initiations. One was
            to do with a couple. The husband was really perplexed when the pink
            slip came for him and the wife for their 4th. According to the man,
            he never understood why his wife also received the 4th because she
            was quarrellsome, never practiced her spiritual exercises, nor had
            much time for Eckankar.He told me this when I explained the truth
            about the eckankar initiations to him.
            >

            The other was an elderly woman who was very close to me.
            She confided in me amidst tears that she had stayed in the
            3rd initiation for years. As she cried while narrating this, she
            wondered why and what she had done, since others who came
            after her had bypassed her in initiations. Unfortunately, she
            did not live long enough to know the truth. Am sure all has been
            made clear to her on the other side.
            Pretujari.

            >
            ***********************************************************************
            >
            Pretujari, this story about the elderly woman demonstrates why
            eckankar is not a benign cult! It is really sad that she was so
            tormented about making those initiation levels up until her time
            of passing! Shame on Klemp and his fraudulent org for sucking
            the life out of innocent Souls who just want to achieve a sincere
            connection with God! I feel both sad and angry to think of this
            woman's sorrow--it's not a good way to live one's life feeling passed
            over like that!
            >
            Klemp will ultimately pay for his lies and deceptions! He talks about
            fear so I have to wonder if he doesn't suffer from real fears in
            knowing that he has been committing these great spiritual crimes?
            >
            Eckankar is not harmless in that it does damage Souls.
            >
            Mish

            > **************************************************************************
            tianyue wrote:
            > >
            > >
            Ex-Initiator's Guide to Initiations
            > > >
            [I've posted an earlier version of this before, and with the
            discussion of secret words that has been ongoing on another group,
            I thought this might be a good time to repost this. I've revised
            this, and added rebuttles to comments Eckists have made to the original.-
            K.A.]

            > > >
            > > >
            > > > When I received the sixth initiation, I had essentially already
            > > > decided to leave Eckankar. I was still hanging on out of some
            > > slight
            > > > uncertainty, and also had decided to maintain my membership due to
            > > > the fact that my partner, Lisa, still remained loyal to Eckankar. A
            > > > year or two had passed while I was in this state of serious doubt
            > > and
            > > > skepticism, when the pink slip for the sixth initiation came. I was
            > > > surprised to say the least. Yet I wasn't too surprised. This
            > > > confirmed what I already suspected: Initiations are not overseen or
            > > > approved by a Mahanta or some omniscient being, but by a computer,
            > > > with the assistance of initiate reports, and recommendations by the
            > > > local Resa and other local High Initiates. I remained in Eckankar
            > > for
            > > > years after this, until the day my mate felt as I did, and we both
            > > > resigned.
            > > >
            > > > Lest there are those in Eckankar who don't yet know this, lists are
            > > > periodically sent out with names generated by a computer to the
            > > state
            > > > Resa (Regional Eck Spiritual Aid), who confers with local High
            > > > Initiates to either recommend or not, an initiation (Klemp himself
            > > > wrote of the computers producing the initiation lists a while back
            > > as
            > > > I recall). Around the time I left Eckankar, most Eckists were
            > > > automatically placed on the list every four or five years or so. If
            > > > for some reason an Eckist was denied, they would usually show up
            > > > again on the next year's list. Local H.I.'s in my area (including
            > > > myself) would routinely talk over the names on the list via the
            > > > telephone, and give their recommendations to the Resa according to
            > > > each chela's loyalty and degree of outer service to the org. Those
            > > > who were especially "troublesome" could be denied the initiation.
            > > The
            > > > Resa emphasized loyalty as the most important trait. The results
            > > from
            > > > the Resa are sent back to Minneapolis HQ where assistants appointed
            > > > by Harold approve or deny the initiation based on such things as
            > > the
            > > > time served as a dues paying member, the Resa recommendations, and
            > > > initiate reports. Some, including myself, have observed that
            > > initiate
            > > > reports (especially those which are positive or are written in
            > > praise
            > > > of the org) definitely can play a role in the initiation approval
            > > > process.
            > > >
            > > > Despite this, few people were denied an initiation if they were on
            > > > the list. Eckankar has a very liberal policy toward initiations. I
            > > > noticed that those who followed the disciplines well fared no
            > > better
            > > > or worse than those who didn't. I noticed people who smoked, drank
            > > or
            > > > never did their exercises stood just as great a chance of receiving
            > > > the fifth initiation as anyone <G>. More than anything, the
            > > > initiations were awarded based on time as a member. The rate at
            > > which
            > > > initiations were received could be accelerated or delayed based on
            > > > the chelas relationship with local H.I.'s and, especially, the
            > > state
            > > > Resa, who has a great deal of influence in such matters.
            > > >
            > > > And one other thing is clear: Those who do not substantially
            > > conform
            > > > to the expectations of the group are the ones most likely to be
            > > > denied an initiation. Despite this, the H.I.'s or Resa's in
            > > different
            > > > areas may vary in their tolerance levels, which accounts for the
            > > > stories heard about individuals who never received initiations in
            > > one
            > > > locale suddenly begin to receive them after moving to another area.
            > > > Also, I've witnessed initiations being approved after three or four
            > > > H.I's gave their unsolicited recommendations to Spiritual Services
            > > on
            > > > behalf of certain chelas who were thought of as exceptionally
            > > > deserving.
            > > >
            > > > I once had a friend who was extremely devoted to Eckankar, who had
            > > > lived in a remote area during most of her time as a member, and
            > > > didn't realize Eckankar's policy that time served as a dues paying
            > > > member counted toward initiation. As a result, she didn't receive
            > > > initiations for years do to the fact that she kept forgetting to
            > > > renew her membership, thinking such things to be of the material
            > > > worlds! She had no idea such trivialities mattered to the
            > > omniscient
            > > > Mahanta! This woman had a life membership (at one time you could
            > > pay
            > > > a large one time fee, $2,000, for a membership for life) but was
            > > > still required to notify Eckankar of her intent to renew annually,
            > > > though no additional fee was required. She didn't think such
            > > > formalities were all that important, and as a result, due to a less
            > > > than exemplary membership record, received no initiations beyond
            > > the
            > > > second, despite years of devotion to Eckankar. One often may hear
            > > > Eckists parroting that such outer initiations matter little, yet
            > > > privately, most Eckists seem to feel very strongly about the
            > > > initiations they are awarded.
            > > >
            > > > This isn't spoken of very much out in the open in Eckankar, but
            > > > people such as the woman in the example can become quite
            > > > disillusioned and depressed over not keeping up with their peers,
            > > > feeling left behind, unwanted, and forgotten by the Mahanta. They
            > > see
            > > > others who are seemingly less deserving receiving initiations,
            > > > whereas they, despite being very devoted to Eckankar and the
            > > > associated disciplines, seem to fall hopelessly behind. Due to
            > > > Eckankar's policy that one not ever request initiations, many
            > > suffer
            > > > in silence, sensing justifiably that something isn't quite right,
            > > yet
            > > > fear to even ask about the possibility of an error. In many cases,
            > > > even when they do ask, they face a stony silence from the org, or
            > > are
            > > > told they are being "tested" spiritually, when all that is needed
            > > is
            > > > a quick check of the record. This is one of the way's such a system
            > > > can inflict undue pain upon its members, and is one reason I am
            > > > taking the time to write about this in detail.
            > > >
            > > > Think about the numbers involved in the initiation approval
            > > process.
            > > > If there are, as claimed, 50,000 members in the org, and each is
            > > > considered for an initiation every five years or so, then that
            > > would
            > > > average 10,000 per year, or 833 per month, or about 40 per day
            > > > (excluding weekends), or about one initiation to be approved every
            > > 10
            > > > to 15 minutes in an average eight hour day. Klemp would have to
            > > work
            > > > full time on initiations every day for the rest of his life to
            > > spend
            > > > 10 to 15 minutes every five years on the "individual" member (do
            > > the
            > > > math and see for yourself). Klemp has said that he checks the inner
            > > > akashic and soul records to make such a choice. Remember that this
            > > > would have to be done to merely consider a person for initiation,
            > > > that is, to give each chela the individual attention and
            > > > consideration that is due, whether or not the chela is actually
            > > > approved for initiation.
            > > >
            > > > Klemp would have to live out of the body most of his life to
            > > > accomplish such a feat. He would have no time for seminars, writing
            > > > his constant supply of books, writing his speeches, eating,
            > > drinking,
            > > > sleeping, going to meetings, running the corporation, etc. For
            > > those
            > > > who argue that such reading of soul records does not take time,
            > > > consider that Klemp has discontinued private requests for
            > > > consultations to do soul readings because, according to him, it
            > > takes
            > > > hours to accomplish an accurate reading of the soul records of just
            > > > one person. Thus, a mere fifteen minutes would not be sufficient to
            > > > approve an initiation, even if he did spend all day, every day of
            > > his
            > > > life approving initiations. Think about this!
            > > >
            > > > From this it can be deduced that Klemp has, for the most part,
            > > > nothing to do with the initiations, other than, perhaps, performing
            > > a
            > > > perfunctory blessing of them in the eckankar offices to fool the
            > > > membership. He simply doesn't have the time.
            > > >
            > > > Remember this key point: It's a fact that someone would have to act
            > > > on the physical plane to approve the initiations and physically
            > > send
            > > > out pink slips. No matter how you slice it, this person (or more
            > > > likely, persons) is not the Living Eck Master, but rather, several
            > > > paid employees.
            > > >
            > > > Some people argue that the true initiations are "inner," and
            > > > therefore the outer initiations are not the true initiations. The
            > > > fallacy in the logic of this argument is that Twitchell originally
            > > > stated that the inner initiation comes before the outer, due to the
            > > > principle of "as above, so below," which means that outer events
            > > > occur on the inner first, manifesting outwardly later. Klemp has
            > > > attempted to confuse people by reversing this, claiming that it
            > > takes
            > > > time to grow into an initiation. But here Klemp contradicts
            > > himself,
            > > > since Klemp has expressly stated in writing that he personally
            > > > approves the outer initiations by reading the inner soul records.
            > > > This means the person receiving the outer initiation would have,
            > > > according to Klemp's own written statements, already have the inner
            > > > preparation, and thus would have received the inner initiation. It
            > > is
            > > > absurd to conclude that Klemp, in taking time to read the soul
            > > > records to approve the outer initiation, would not include as part
            > > of
            > > > that time and effort the giving of the actual inner initiation, if
            > > > after having read the soul records it was determined the chela was
            > > > eligible for the initiation. Thus, the logic that the inner and
            > > outer
            > > > initiations are separate and not inextricably linked is denied in
            > > > statements by Eckankar's only presumed authority, the Living Eck
            > > > Master, Harold Klemp. And the obvious fact is, Klemp would not have
            > > > the requisite time that he has stated is necessary to read so many
            > > > soul records each day of his life. He has been caught up in his own
            > > > contradictory statements and revealed himself to be a fraud.
            > > >
            > > > Thus, the initiations are entirely bogus. They represent nothing
            > > more
            > > > than organizational status. Observe the behavior of the online
            > > > clergy. These are not enlightened beings. They are ordinary people
            > > > caught up in the throes of everyday life, like most people are in
            > > the
            > > > rest of the world.
            > > >
            > > > Kent
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • ctecvie
            I know an ex-eckist who found David Lane and left the teachings silently. He began to translate David Lane s book into German and then the pink slip for his
            Message 5 of 11 , Feb 6, 2007
              I know an ex-eckist who found David Lane and left the teachings
              silently. He began to translate David Lane's book into German and
              then the pink slip for his next initiation arrived.

              Perhaps the all-knowing mahanta thought this accomplishment was worth
              a reward! LOL!

              Ingrid

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
              <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
              >
              > The arbitrary way in which the ECK Initiations come to
              > ECKists proves that there is no inner communication
              > with their Master. There is no equality of consciousness
              > within the same Circle of Initiation! It's not even close!
              > Therefore, how can there be any truth in the words:
              > 'I am always with you.' It's a lie that innocent people
              > have willingly bought into because they want and need
              > to believe in the lie of religion. And, the Eckankar religion
              > may be different and unique and give more answers when
              > compared to most other religions, but that doesn't mean
              > it's all true. Except for the LEM/Mahanta, the Initiations,
              > and the ECK Masters much of what Twitchell "compiled"
              > has some merit for Soul's individual investigation/journey.
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
              >
              > pretujari wrote:
              > > >
              >
              > Hello,
              > This reminds me of two scenerios regarding the initiations. One was
              > to do with a couple. The husband was really perplexed when the pink
              > slip came for him and the wife for their 4th. According to the man,
              > he never understood why his wife also received the 4th because she
              > was quarrellsome, never practiced her spiritual exercises, nor had
              > much time for Eckankar.He told me this when I explained the truth
              > about the eckankar initiations to him.
              > >
              >
              > The other was an elderly woman who was very close to me.
              > She confided in me amidst tears that she had stayed in the
              > 3rd initiation for years. As she cried while narrating this, she
              > wondered why and what she had done, since others who came
              > after her had bypassed her in initiations. Unfortunately, she
              > did not live long enough to know the truth. Am sure all has been
              > made clear to her on the other side.
              > Pretujari.
              >
              > >
              >
              **********************************************************************
              *
              > >
              > Pretujari, this story about the elderly woman demonstrates why
              > eckankar is not a benign cult! It is really sad that she was so
              > tormented about making those initiation levels up until her time
              > of passing! Shame on Klemp and his fraudulent org for sucking
              > the life out of innocent Souls who just want to achieve a sincere
              > connection with God! I feel both sad and angry to think of this
              > woman's sorrow--it's not a good way to live one's life feeling
              passed
              > over like that!
              > >
              > Klemp will ultimately pay for his lies and deceptions! He talks
              about
              > fear so I have to wonder if he doesn't suffer from real fears in
              > knowing that he has been committing these great spiritual crimes?
              > >
              > Eckankar is not harmless in that it does damage Souls.
              > >
              > Mish
              >
              > >
              **********************************************************************
              ****
              > tianyue wrote:
              > > >
              > > >
              > Ex-Initiator's Guide to Initiations
              > > > >
              > [I've posted an earlier version of this before, and with the
              > discussion of secret words that has been ongoing on another group,
              > I thought this might be a good time to repost this. I've revised
              > this, and added rebuttles to comments Eckists have made to the
              original.-
              > K.A.]
              >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > When I received the sixth initiation, I had essentially
              already
              > > > > decided to leave Eckankar. I was still hanging on out of some
              > > > slight
              > > > > uncertainty, and also had decided to maintain my membership
              due to
              > > > > the fact that my partner, Lisa, still remained loyal to
              Eckankar. A
              > > > > year or two had passed while I was in this state of serious
              doubt
              > > > and
              > > > > skepticism, when the pink slip for the sixth initiation came.
              I was
              > > > > surprised to say the least. Yet I wasn't too surprised. This
              > > > > confirmed what I already suspected: Initiations are not
              overseen or
              > > > > approved by a Mahanta or some omniscient being, but by a
              computer,
              > > > > with the assistance of initiate reports, and recommendations
              by the
              > > > > local Resa and other local High Initiates. I remained in
              Eckankar
              > > > for
              > > > > years after this, until the day my mate felt as I did, and we
              both
              > > > > resigned.
              > > > >
              > > > > Lest there are those in Eckankar who don't yet know this,
              lists are
              > > > > periodically sent out with names generated by a computer to
              the
              > > > state
              > > > > Resa (Regional Eck Spiritual Aid), who confers with local
              High
              > > > > Initiates to either recommend or not, an initiation (Klemp
              himself
              > > > > wrote of the computers producing the initiation lists a while
              back
              > > > as
              > > > > I recall). Around the time I left Eckankar, most Eckists were
              > > > > automatically placed on the list every four or five years or
              so. If
              > > > > for some reason an Eckist was denied, they would usually show
              up
              > > > > again on the next year's list. Local H.I.'s in my area
              (including
              > > > > myself) would routinely talk over the names on the list via
              the
              > > > > telephone, and give their recommendations to the Resa
              according to
              > > > > each chela's loyalty and degree of outer service to the org.
              Those
              > > > > who were especially "troublesome" could be denied the
              initiation.
              > > > The
              > > > > Resa emphasized loyalty as the most important trait. The
              results
              > > > from
              > > > > the Resa are sent back to Minneapolis HQ where assistants
              appointed
              > > > > by Harold approve or deny the initiation based on such things
              as
              > > > the
              > > > > time served as a dues paying member, the Resa
              recommendations, and
              > > > > initiate reports. Some, including myself, have observed that
              > > > initiate
              > > > > reports (especially those which are positive or are written
              in
              > > > praise
              > > > > of the org) definitely can play a role in the initiation
              approval
              > > > > process.
              > > > >
              > > > > Despite this, few people were denied an initiation if they
              were on
              > > > > the list. Eckankar has a very liberal policy toward
              initiations. I
              > > > > noticed that those who followed the disciplines well fared no
              > > > better
              > > > > or worse than those who didn't. I noticed people who smoked,
              drank
              > > > or
              > > > > never did their exercises stood just as great a chance of
              receiving
              > > > > the fifth initiation as anyone <G>. More than anything, the
              > > > > initiations were awarded based on time as a member. The rate
              at
              > > > which
              > > > > initiations were received could be accelerated or delayed
              based on
              > > > > the chelas relationship with local H.I.'s and, especially,
              the
              > > > state
              > > > > Resa, who has a great deal of influence in such matters.
              > > > >
              > > > > And one other thing is clear: Those who do not substantially
              > > > conform
              > > > > to the expectations of the group are the ones most likely to
              be
              > > > > denied an initiation. Despite this, the H.I.'s or Resa's in
              > > > different
              > > > > areas may vary in their tolerance levels, which accounts for
              the
              > > > > stories heard about individuals who never received
              initiations in
              > > > one
              > > > > locale suddenly begin to receive them after moving to another
              area.
              > > > > Also, I've witnessed initiations being approved after three
              or four
              > > > > H.I's gave their unsolicited recommendations to Spiritual
              Services
              > > > on
              > > > > behalf of certain chelas who were thought of as exceptionally
              > > > > deserving.
              > > > >
              > > > > I once had a friend who was extremely devoted to Eckankar,
              who had
              > > > > lived in a remote area during most of her time as a member,
              and
              > > > > didn't realize Eckankar's policy that time served as a dues
              paying
              > > > > member counted toward initiation. As a result, she didn't
              receive
              > > > > initiations for years do to the fact that she kept forgetting
              to
              > > > > renew her membership, thinking such things to be of the
              material
              > > > > worlds! She had no idea such trivialities mattered to the
              > > > omniscient
              > > > > Mahanta! This woman had a life membership (at one time you
              could
              > > > pay
              > > > > a large one time fee, $2,000, for a membership for life) but
              was
              > > > > still required to notify Eckankar of her intent to renew
              annually,
              > > > > though no additional fee was required. She didn't think such
              > > > > formalities were all that important, and as a result, due to
              a less
              > > > > than exemplary membership record, received no initiations
              beyond
              > > > the
              > > > > second, despite years of devotion to Eckankar. One often may
              hear
              > > > > Eckists parroting that such outer initiations matter little,
              yet
              > > > > privately, most Eckists seem to feel very strongly about the
              > > > > initiations they are awarded.
              > > > >
              > > > > This isn't spoken of very much out in the open in Eckankar,
              but
              > > > > people such as the woman in the example can become quite
              > > > > disillusioned and depressed over not keeping up with their
              peers,
              > > > > feeling left behind, unwanted, and forgotten by the Mahanta.
              They
              > > > see
              > > > > others who are seemingly less deserving receiving
              initiations,
              > > > > whereas they, despite being very devoted to Eckankar and the
              > > > > associated disciplines, seem to fall hopelessly behind. Due
              to
              > > > > Eckankar's policy that one not ever request initiations, many
              > > > suffer
              > > > > in silence, sensing justifiably that something isn't quite
              right,
              > > > yet
              > > > > fear to even ask about the possibility of an error. In many
              cases,
              > > > > even when they do ask, they face a stony silence from the
              org, or
              > > > are
              > > > > told they are being "tested" spiritually, when all that is
              needed
              > > > is
              > > > > a quick check of the record. This is one of the way's such a
              system
              > > > > can inflict undue pain upon its members, and is one reason I
              am
              > > > > taking the time to write about this in detail.
              > > > >
              > > > > Think about the numbers involved in the initiation approval
              > > > process.
              > > > > If there are, as claimed, 50,000 members in the org, and each
              is
              > > > > considered for an initiation every five years or so, then
              that
              > > > would
              > > > > average 10,000 per year, or 833 per month, or about 40 per
              day
              > > > > (excluding weekends), or about one initiation to be approved
              every
              > > > 10
              > > > > to 15 minutes in an average eight hour day. Klemp would have
              to
              > > > work
              > > > > full time on initiations every day for the rest of his life
              to
              > > > spend
              > > > > 10 to 15 minutes every five years on the "individual" member
              (do
              > > > the
              > > > > math and see for yourself). Klemp has said that he checks the
              inner
              > > > > akashic and soul records to make such a choice. Remember that
              this
              > > > > would have to be done to merely consider a person for
              initiation,
              > > > > that is, to give each chela the individual attention and
              > > > > consideration that is due, whether or not the chela is
              actually
              > > > > approved for initiation.
              > > > >
              > > > > Klemp would have to live out of the body most of his life to
              > > > > accomplish such a feat. He would have no time for seminars,
              writing
              > > > > his constant supply of books, writing his speeches, eating,
              > > > drinking,
              > > > > sleeping, going to meetings, running the corporation, etc.
              For
              > > > those
              > > > > who argue that such reading of soul records does not take
              time,
              > > > > consider that Klemp has discontinued private requests for
              > > > > consultations to do soul readings because, according to him,
              it
              > > > takes
              > > > > hours to accomplish an accurate reading of the soul records
              of just
              > > > > one person. Thus, a mere fifteen minutes would not be
              sufficient to
              > > > > approve an initiation, even if he did spend all day, every
              day of
              > > > his
              > > > > life approving initiations. Think about this!
              > > > >
              > > > > From this it can be deduced that Klemp has, for the most
              part,
              > > > > nothing to do with the initiations, other than, perhaps,
              performing
              > > > a
              > > > > perfunctory blessing of them in the eckankar offices to fool
              the
              > > > > membership. He simply doesn't have the time.
              > > > >
              > > > > Remember this key point: It's a fact that someone would have
              to act
              > > > > on the physical plane to approve the initiations and
              physically
              > > > send
              > > > > out pink slips. No matter how you slice it, this person (or
              more
              > > > > likely, persons) is not the Living Eck Master, but rather,
              several
              > > > > paid employees.
              > > > >
              > > > > Some people argue that the true initiations are "inner," and
              > > > > therefore the outer initiations are not the true initiations.
              The
              > > > > fallacy in the logic of this argument is that Twitchell
              originally
              > > > > stated that the inner initiation comes before the outer, due
              to the
              > > > > principle of "as above, so below," which means that outer
              events
              > > > > occur on the inner first, manifesting outwardly later. Klemp
              has
              > > > > attempted to confuse people by reversing this, claiming that
              it
              > > > takes
              > > > > time to grow into an initiation. But here Klemp contradicts
              > > > himself,
              > > > > since Klemp has expressly stated in writing that he
              personally
              > > > > approves the outer initiations by reading the inner soul
              records.
              > > > > This means the person receiving the outer initiation would
              have,
              > > > > according to Klemp's own written statements, already have the
              inner
              > > > > preparation, and thus would have received the inner
              initiation. It
              > > > is
              > > > > absurd to conclude that Klemp, in taking time to read the
              soul
              > > > > records to approve the outer initiation, would not include as
              part
              > > > of
              > > > > that time and effort the giving of the actual inner
              initiation, if
              > > > > after having read the soul records it was determined the
              chela was
              > > > > eligible for the initiation. Thus, the logic that the inner
              and
              > > > outer
              > > > > initiations are separate and not inextricably linked is
              denied in
              > > > > statements by Eckankar's only presumed authority, the Living
              Eck
              > > > > Master, Harold Klemp. And the obvious fact is, Klemp would
              not have
              > > > > the requisite time that he has stated is necessary to read so
              many
              > > > > soul records each day of his life. He has been caught up in
              his own
              > > > > contradictory statements and revealed himself to be a fraud.
              > > > >
              > > > > Thus, the initiations are entirely bogus. They represent
              nothing
              > > > more
              > > > > than organizational status. Observe the behavior of the
              online
              > > > > clergy. These are not enlightened beings. They are ordinary
              people
              > > > > caught up in the throes of everyday life, like most people
              are in
              > > > the
              > > > > rest of the world.
              > > > >
              > > > > Kent
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • prometheus_973
              Hi Ingrid, The ECK Initiations along with all of the other inner teachings and dogma of ECKANKAR are just PRETEND! Klemp has stated: Acting AS IF is a
              Message 6 of 11 , Feb 7, 2007
                Hi Ingrid,
                The ECK Initiations along with all of the other "inner"
                teachings and dogma of ECKANKAR are just PRETEND!
                Klemp has stated: "Acting 'AS IF' is a principle of ECK.
                You establish a goal, then ACT AS IF the WISH is fulfilled
                and the DREAM completed. In this way you CREATE your
                OWN world." H.K. The Dream Master, pg. 81 [My caps]

                It's no wonder that these gullible and spiritually immature
                ECKists continue to accept an authority figure over them.
                At the same time they fear taking on responsibility for their
                own thoughts, words. feelings, actions, and reactions. They
                need a fake Mahanta because they are weak and immature
                Souls.

                Prometheus

                ctecvie wrote:
                >
                I know an ex-eckist who found David Lane and left the teachings
                silently. He began to translate David Lane's book into German and
                then the pink slip for his next initiation arrived.
                >
                Perhaps the all-knowing mahanta thought this accomplishment
                was worth a reward! LOL!
                >
                Ingrid
                >
                prometheus wrote:
                > >
                The arbitrary way in which the ECK Initiations come to
                ECKists proves that there is no inner communication
                with their Master. There is no equality of consciousness
                within the same Circle of Initiation! It's not even close!
                Therefore, how can there be any truth in the words:
                'I am always with you.' It's a lie that innocent people
                have willingly bought into because they want and need
                to believe in the lie of religion. And, the Eckankar religion
                may be different and unique and give more answers when
                compared to most other religions, but that doesn't mean
                it's all true. Except for the LEM/Mahanta, the Initiations,
                and the ECK Masters much of what Twitchell "compiled"
                has some merit for Soul's individual investigation/journey.
                > >
                Prometheus
                > >
                > >
                pretujari wrote:
                > > > >
                > >
                Hello,
                This reminds me of two scenerios regarding the initiations. One was
                to do with a couple. The husband was really perplexed when the pink
                slip came for him and the wife for their 4th. According to the man,
                he never understood why his wife also received the 4th because she
                was quarrellsome, never practiced her spiritual exercises, nor had
                much time for Eckankar.He told me this when I explained the truth
                about the eckankar initiations to him.
                > > >
                The other was an elderly woman who was very close to me.
                She confided in me amidst tears that she had stayed in the
                3rd initiation for years. As she cried while narrating this, she
                wondered why and what she had done, since others who came
                after her had bypassed her in initiations. Unfortunately, she
                did not live long enough to know the truth. Am sure all has been
                made clear to her on the other side.
                Pretujari.
                **********************************************************************

                > > >
                Pretujari, this story about the elderly woman demonstrates why
                eckankar is not a benign cult! It is really sad that she was so
                tormented about making those initiation levels up until her time
                of passing! Shame on Klemp and his fraudulent org for sucking
                the life out of innocent Souls who just want to achieve a sincere
                connection with God! I feel both sad and angry to think of this
                woman's sorrow--it's not a good way to live one's life feeling
                passed over like that!
                > > >
                Klemp will ultimately pay for his lies and deceptions! He talks
                about fear so I have to wonder if he doesn't suffer from real fears
                in knowing that he has been committing these great spiritual
                crimes?
                > > >
                Eckankar is not harmless in that it does damage Souls.
                > > >
                Mish


                **************************************************************

                tianyue wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > >
                Ex-Initiator's Guide to Initiations
                > > > > >
                [I've posted an earlier version of this before, and with the
                discussion of secret words that has been ongoing on another group,
                I thought this might be a good time to repost this. I've revised
                this, and added rebuttles to comments Eckists have made to the
                original.-
                K.A.]
                > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                When I received the sixth initiation, I had essentially
                already decided to leave Eckankar. I was still hanging on out
                of some slight uncertainty, and also had decided to maintain
                my membership due to the fact that my partner, Lisa, still
                remained loyal to Eckankar. A year or two had passed while
                I was in this state of serious doubt and skepticism, when the
                pink slip for the sixth initiation came. I was surprised to say
                the least. Yet I wasn't too surprised. This confirmed what I
                already suspected: Initiations are not overseen or approved
                by a Mahanta or some omniscient being, but by a computer,
                with the assistance of initiate reports, and recommendations
                by the local Resa and other local High Initiates. I remained in
                Eckankar for years after this, until the day my mate felt as I did,
                and we both resigned.

                Lest there are those in Eckankar who don't yet know this,
                lists are periodically sent out with names generated by a
                computer to the state Resa (Regional Eck Spiritual Aid),
                who confers with local High Initiates to either recommend
                or not, an initiation (Klemp himself wrote of the computers
                producing the initiation lists a while back as I recall).
                [snip]
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