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Re: Ex-Initiator's Guide to Eck Initiations

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  • pretujari
    Hello, This reminds me of two scenerios regarding the initiations. One was to do with a couple. The husband was really perplexed when the pink slip came for
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 5, 2007
      Hello,
      This reminds me of two scenerios regarding the initiations. One was
      to do with a couple. The husband was really perplexed when the pink
      slip came for him and the wife for their 4th. According to the man,
      he never understood why his wife also received the 4th because she
      was quarrellsome, never practiced her spiritual exercises, nor had
      much time for Eckankar.He told me this when I explained the truth
      about the eckankar initiations to him. The other was an elderly woman
      who was very close to me . She confided in me amidst tears that she
      had stayed in the 3rd initiation for years. As she cried while
      narrating this, she wondered why and what she had done, since others
      who came after her had bypassed her in initiations. Unfortunately,
      she did not live long enough to know the truth. Am sure all has been
      made clear to her on the other side.
      Pretujari.





      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater"
      <tianyue@...> wrote:
      >


      > Ex-Initiator's Guide to Initiations
      >
      > [I've posted an earlier version of this before, and with the
      > discussion of secret words that has been ongoing on another group,
      I
      > thought this might be a good time to repost this. I've revised
      this,
      > and added rebuttles to comments Eckists have made to the original.-
      > K.A.]
      >
      >
      >
      > When I received the sixth initiation, I had essentially already
      > decided to leave Eckankar. I was still hanging on out of some
      slight
      > uncertainty, and also had decided to maintain my membership due to
      > the fact that my partner, Lisa, still remained loyal to Eckankar. A
      > year or two had passed while I was in this state of serious doubt
      and
      > skepticism, when the pink slip for the sixth initiation came. I was
      > surprised to say the least. Yet I wasn't too surprised. This
      > confirmed what I already suspected: Initiations are not overseen or
      > approved by a Mahanta or some omniscient being, but by a computer,
      > with the assistance of initiate reports, and recommendations by the
      > local Resa and other local High Initiates. I remained in Eckankar
      for
      > years after this, until the day my mate felt as I did, and we both
      > resigned.
      >
      > Lest there are those in Eckankar who don't yet know this, lists are
      > periodically sent out with names generated by a computer to the
      state
      > Resa (Regional Eck Spiritual Aid), who confers with local High
      > Initiates to either recommend or not, an initiation (Klemp himself
      > wrote of the computers producing the initiation lists a while back
      as
      > I recall). Around the time I left Eckankar, most Eckists were
      > automatically placed on the list every four or five years or so. If
      > for some reason an Eckist was denied, they would usually show up
      > again on the next year's list. Local H.I.'s in my area (including
      > myself) would routinely talk over the names on the list via the
      > telephone, and give their recommendations to the Resa according to
      > each chela's loyalty and degree of outer service to the org. Those
      > who were especially "troublesome" could be denied the initiation.
      The
      > Resa emphasized loyalty as the most important trait. The results
      from
      > the Resa are sent back to Minneapolis HQ where assistants appointed
      > by Harold approve or deny the initiation based on such things as
      the
      > time served as a dues paying member, the Resa recommendations, and
      > initiate reports. Some, including myself, have observed that
      initiate
      > reports (especially those which are positive or are written in
      praise
      > of the org) definitely can play a role in the initiation approval
      > process.
      >
      > Despite this, few people were denied an initiation if they were on
      > the list. Eckankar has a very liberal policy toward initiations. I
      > noticed that those who followed the disciplines well fared no
      better
      > or worse than those who didn't. I noticed people who smoked, drank
      or
      > never did their exercises stood just as great a chance of receiving
      > the fifth initiation as anyone <G>. More than anything, the
      > initiations were awarded based on time as a member. The rate at
      which
      > initiations were received could be accelerated or delayed based on
      > the chelas relationship with local H.I.'s and, especially, the
      state
      > Resa, who has a great deal of influence in such matters.
      >
      > And one other thing is clear: Those who do not substantially
      conform
      > to the expectations of the group are the ones most likely to be
      > denied an initiation. Despite this, the H.I.'s or Resa's in
      different
      > areas may vary in their tolerance levels, which accounts for the
      > stories heard about individuals who never received initiations in
      one
      > locale suddenly begin to receive them after moving to another area.
      > Also, I've witnessed initiations being approved after three or four
      > H.I's gave their unsolicited recommendations to Spiritual Services
      on
      > behalf of certain chelas who were thought of as exceptionally
      > deserving.
      >
      > I once had a friend who was extremely devoted to Eckankar, who had
      > lived in a remote area during most of her time as a member, and
      > didn't realize Eckankar's policy that time served as a dues paying
      > member counted toward initiation. As a result, she didn't receive
      > initiations for years do to the fact that she kept forgetting to
      > renew her membership, thinking such things to be of the material
      > worlds! She had no idea such trivialities mattered to the
      omniscient
      > Mahanta! This woman had a life membership (at one time you could
      pay
      > a large one time fee, $2,000, for a membership for life) but was
      > still required to notify Eckankar of her intent to renew annually,
      > though no additional fee was required. She didn't think such
      > formalities were all that important, and as a result, due to a less
      > than exemplary membership record, received no initiations beyond
      the
      > second, despite years of devotion to Eckankar. One often may hear
      > Eckists parroting that such outer initiations matter little, yet
      > privately, most Eckists seem to feel very strongly about the
      > initiations they are awarded.
      >
      > This isn't spoken of very much out in the open in Eckankar, but
      > people such as the woman in the example can become quite
      > disillusioned and depressed over not keeping up with their peers,
      > feeling left behind, unwanted, and forgotten by the Mahanta. They
      see
      > others who are seemingly less deserving receiving initiations,
      > whereas they, despite being very devoted to Eckankar and the
      > associated disciplines, seem to fall hopelessly behind. Due to
      > Eckankar's policy that one not ever request initiations, many
      suffer
      > in silence, sensing justifiably that something isn't quite right,
      yet
      > fear to even ask about the possibility of an error. In many cases,
      > even when they do ask, they face a stony silence from the org, or
      are
      > told they are being "tested" spiritually, when all that is needed
      is
      > a quick check of the record. This is one of the way's such a system
      > can inflict undue pain upon its members, and is one reason I am
      > taking the time to write about this in detail.
      >
      > Think about the numbers involved in the initiation approval
      process.
      > If there are, as claimed, 50,000 members in the org, and each is
      > considered for an initiation every five years or so, then that
      would
      > average 10,000 per year, or 833 per month, or about 40 per day
      > (excluding weekends), or about one initiation to be approved every
      10
      > to 15 minutes in an average eight hour day. Klemp would have to
      work
      > full time on initiations every day for the rest of his life to
      spend
      > 10 to 15 minutes every five years on the "individual" member (do
      the
      > math and see for yourself). Klemp has said that he checks the inner
      > akashic and soul records to make such a choice. Remember that this
      > would have to be done to merely consider a person for initiation,
      > that is, to give each chela the individual attention and
      > consideration that is due, whether or not the chela is actually
      > approved for initiation.
      >
      > Klemp would have to live out of the body most of his life to
      > accomplish such a feat. He would have no time for seminars, writing
      > his constant supply of books, writing his speeches, eating,
      drinking,
      > sleeping, going to meetings, running the corporation, etc. For
      those
      > who argue that such reading of soul records does not take time,
      > consider that Klemp has discontinued private requests for
      > consultations to do soul readings because, according to him, it
      takes
      > hours to accomplish an accurate reading of the soul records of just
      > one person. Thus, a mere fifteen minutes would not be sufficient to
      > approve an initiation, even if he did spend all day, every day of
      his
      > life approving initiations. Think about this!
      >
      > From this it can be deduced that Klemp has, for the most part,
      > nothing to do with the initiations, other than, perhaps, performing
      a
      > perfunctory blessing of them in the eckankar offices to fool the
      > membership. He simply doesn't have the time.
      >
      > Remember this key point: It's a fact that someone would have to act
      > on the physical plane to approve the initiations and physically
      send
      > out pink slips. No matter how you slice it, this person (or more
      > likely, persons) is not the Living Eck Master, but rather, several
      > paid employees.
      >
      > Some people argue that the true initiations are "inner," and
      > therefore the outer initiations are not the true initiations. The
      > fallacy in the logic of this argument is that Twitchell originally
      > stated that the inner initiation comes before the outer, due to the
      > principle of "as above, so below," which means that outer events
      > occur on the inner first, manifesting outwardly later. Klemp has
      > attempted to confuse people by reversing this, claiming that it
      takes
      > time to grow into an initiation. But here Klemp contradicts
      himself,
      > since Klemp has expressly stated in writing that he personally
      > approves the outer initiations by reading the inner soul records.
      > This means the person receiving the outer initiation would have,
      > according to Klemp's own written statements, already have the inner
      > preparation, and thus would have received the inner initiation. It
      is
      > absurd to conclude that Klemp, in taking time to read the soul
      > records to approve the outer initiation, would not include as part
      of
      > that time and effort the giving of the actual inner initiation, if
      > after having read the soul records it was determined the chela was
      > eligible for the initiation. Thus, the logic that the inner and
      outer
      > initiations are separate and not inextricably linked is denied in
      > statements by Eckankar's only presumed authority, the Living Eck
      > Master, Harold Klemp. And the obvious fact is, Klemp would not have
      > the requisite time that he has stated is necessary to read so many
      > soul records each day of his life. He has been caught up in his own
      > contradictory statements and revealed himself to be a fraud.
      >
      > Thus, the initiations are entirely bogus. They represent nothing
      more
      > than organizational status. Observe the behavior of the online
      > clergy. These are not enlightened beings. They are ordinary people
      > caught up in the throes of everyday life, like most people are in
      the
      > rest of the world.
      >
      > Kent
      >
    • pretujari
      Hi All, Klemp spent 14 years in training and became a Mahanta/LEM of the 14th. His successor has spent 25years and counting in training and will only come in
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 5, 2007
        Hi All,
        Klemp spent 14 years in training and became a Mahanta/LEM of the
        14th. His successor has spent 25years and counting in training and
        will only come in as 12th Initiate LEM of the 'Mahanta
        Consciousness.' It just doesn't add up.
        Pretujari

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
        <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi All,
        > I thought that I'd bring this back for more comments.
        >
        > I noticed that some chelas who were put on the RESA's
        > sh_t list were there for up to three years and, thus, had
        > their initiations delayed for three years. Some of these
        > RESAs are really into the three thing except, of course,
        > when doing their "five year (business) plan!" The ESC
        > just follows the lead of the RESAs and the RESAs follow
        > the gossip and recommendations of their friends who
        > are H.I.s.
        >
        > Also, at one time a life membership was $500, but this
        > was early on and for just a brief time period when quick
        > money was needed. However, just before DG was booted
        > Darwin reinstated the lifetime membership donation
        > for $1,000! DG took the money and ran while leaving HK
        > holding the bag. However, I'm told, that HK still requires
        > all of the lifetime members to renew each year or lose their
        > lifetime memberships! I haven't heard about the $2,000
        > lifetime memberships that Kent spoke of. Is that what
        > they cost now? What a scam! Especially, if one has to still
        > renew it each year or lose it!
        >
        > Anyway, it doesn't seem very "spiritual" does it? It's typical
        > for HK to preach about one thing and do the opposite!
        >
        > I found these quotes in the Shariyat 2, Ch.2, Books 1&2:
        >
        > "There will be those who call themselves ECK Masters and
        > disguise themselves under the robes of ECK, but they are
        > prophets with false faces who are lying to take in the
        > ECKists... in search of the material things of life: money,
        > health, and physical happiness."
        >
        > So, it seems that Paul was, basically, and maybe unknowingly
        > tying together some random insights to the future of ECKANKAR
        > and to his succesors! The irony is that Paul was more of the
        > Conman than the Godman and was, also, speaking of himself
        > and his own limitations.
        >
        > Yes, the seeker will find "the pseudogurus scattered throughout
        > the world... he will find false prophets and the so-called teachers
        > ... the paradox is that pure consciousness is simultaneously both
        > positive and negative... the light is darkness and darkness is
        light
        > and sound... both are the qualities of the ECK."
        >
        > With this kind of circular logic I can see how Twitchell was able
        > to justify his scam! Just make yourself into a indisputable "God"
        > or authority figure (LEM/Mahanta) and recreate history and reality
        > to suit your needs while attracting a following of needy, gullible,
        > trusting, spiritual seekers who have always felt like or have been
        > misfits in society, in orthodox religion, or within their own
        families.
        > Sell spiritual liberation while creating an admirable vocation for
        > yourself as Top Dog or as Top God!
        >
        > However, I must say that timing is everything. Perhaps this is also
        > why ECKANKAR membership numbers are dropping, and why there
        > is such a push to get the ECK Youth more brainwashed and to get
        > the Vahana (Missionary) volunteer army into the field of action. HK
        > is doing a "sell" of ECKANKAR and of himself that definitely goes
        > beyond just getting the normal word of mouth "message" out.
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > prometheus wrote:
        > >
        > Hi Kent,
        > I agree, the ECK Initiations are bogus. It is strange how
        > Klemp has stated that a Chela grows "into" their initiation
        > years after receiving it on the outer. Therefore, a 5th wouldn't
        > know that they had completed the tests, lessons, etc. of the
        > 5th until they received the 6th! Yet, in the Masters 4 Discourse,
        > Lesson 2 on The Ninth Initiation, HK states that the Initiation
        > is NOT completed until the third and final stage of confirmation
        > is given on the outer. Thus, there are two "inner" stages and
        > one "outer" stage for the 9th initiation.
        > >
        > Maybe HK's other explanation came about when Gross was
        > kicked to the curb, but sent out 500 Higher Initiations before
        > he left! HK said these chelas weren't supposed to get promoted,
        > but would work with them (on the inner) to bring them up to
        > speed or up to that level of delusion. Still, it doesn't explain
        > why people skipped initiations or only served a few months in
        > one before receiving the next one! Klemp never addressed that
        > issue since he too benefited and experienced that same thing via
        > DG.
        > >
        > One would think that one explanation should apply to all, but
        > Klemp changes things as he sees fit because he can! It's a
        > tough job to keep his and Paul's nonsense sorted out. Then
        > again, keeping ECKists off balance and confused is part
        > of the plan. If people can accept all sorts and all amounts of
        > crap via blind faith and imagination then why be concerned?
        > Besides, ECKists see it as a test... or a paradox... or as just
        > Lower World Mental expressions that are limiting. The "inner"
        > is the only true reality for them... right? I always found it
        > interesting how PT would give people a heads up to truth
        > on occasion. It's like a thief telling you not to forget to lock
        > your doors. Now wouldn't you assume a guy like that was
        > to be trusted?
        > >
        > Here's a supposed quote from Shamus-i-Tabriz from a
        > chela's dream: "Little do we realize how our expectations
        > shape our experiences and reality." [pg. 88, TWEM]
        > >
        > Now, if only ECKists could see the truth of that statement!
        > >
        > Prometheus
        > >
        > Kent wrote:
        > > >
        > Ex-Initiator's Guide to Initiations
        > > >
        > [I've posted an earlier version of this before, and with the
        > discussion of secret words that has been ongoing on another group,
        I
        > thought this might be a good time to repost this. I've revised
        this,
        > and added rebuttles to comments Eckists have made to the original.-
        > K.A.]
        > > >
        > When I received the sixth initiation, I had essentially already
        > decided to leave Eckankar. I was still hanging on out of some
        slight
        > uncertainty, and also had decided to maintain my membership due to
        > the fact that my partner, Lisa, still remained loyal to Eckankar. A
        > year or two had passed while I was in this state of serious doubt
        and
        > skepticism, when the pink slip for the sixth initiation came. I was
        > surprised to say the least. Yet I wasn't too surprised. This
        > confirmed what I already suspected: Initiations are not overseen or
        > approved by a Mahanta or some omniscient being, but by a computer,
        > with the assistance of initiate reports, and recommendations by the
        > local Resa and other local High Initiates. I remained in Eckankar
        for
        > years after this, until the day my mate felt as I did, and we both
        > resigned.
        > > >
        > Lest there are those in Eckankar who don't yet know this, lists are
        > periodically sent out with names generated by a computer to the
        state
        > Resa (Regional Eck Spiritual Aid), who confers with local High
        > Initiates to either recommend or not, an initiation (Klemp himself
        > wrote of the computers producing the initiation lists a while back
        as
        > I recall). Around the time I left Eckankar, most Eckists were
        > automatically placed on the list every four or five years or so. If
        > for some reason an Eckist was denied, they would usually show up
        > again on the next year's list. Local H.I.'s in my area (including
        > myself) would routinely talk over the names on the list via the
        > telephone, and give their recommendations to the Resa according to
        > each chela's loyalty and degree of outer service to the org. Those
        > who were especially "troublesome" could be denied the initiation.
        The
        > Resa emphasized loyalty as the most important trait. The results
        from
        > the Resa are sent back to Minneapolis HQ where assistants appointed
        > by Harold approve or deny the initiation based on such things as
        the
        > time served as a dues paying member, the Resa recommendations, and
        > initiate reports. Some, including myself, have observed that
        initiate
        > reports (especially those which are positive or are written in
        praise
        > of the org) definitely can play a role in the initiation approval
        > process.
        > > >
        > Despite this, few people were denied an initiation if they were on
        > the list. Eckankar has a very liberal policy toward initiations. I
        > noticed that those who followed the disciplines well fared no
        better
        > or worse than those who didn't. I noticed people who smoked, drank
        or
        > never did their exercises stood just as great a chance of receiving
        > the fifth initiation as anyone <G>. More than anything, the
        > initiations were awarded based on time as a member. The rate at
        which
        > initiations were received could be accelerated or delayed based on
        > the chelas relationship with local H.I.'s and, especially, the
        state
        > Resa, who has a great deal of influence in such matters.
        > > >
        > And one other thing is clear: Those who do not substantially
        conform
        > to the expectations of the group are the ones most likely to be
        > denied an initiation. Despite this, the H.I.'s or Resa's in
        different
        > areas may vary in their tolerance levels, which accounts for the
        > stories heard about individuals who never received initiations in
        one
        > locale suddenly begin to receive them after moving to another area.
        > Also, I've witnessed initiations being approved after three or four
        > H.I's gave their unsolicited recommendations to Spiritual Services
        on
        > behalf of certain chelas who were thought of as exceptionally
        > deserving.
        > > >
        > I once had a friend who was extremely devoted to Eckankar, who had
        > lived in a remote area during most of her time as a member, and
        > didn't realize Eckankar's policy that time served as a dues paying
        > member counted toward initiation. As a result, she didn't receive
        > initiations for years do to the fact that she kept forgetting to
        > renew her membership, thinking such things to be of the material
        > worlds! She had no idea such trivialities mattered to the
        omniscient
        > Mahanta! This woman had a life membership (at one time you could
        pay
        > a large one time fee, $2,000, for a membership for life) but was
        > still required to notify Eckankar of her intent to renew annually,
        > though no additional fee was required. She didn't think such
        > formalities were all that important, and as a result, due to a less
        > than exemplary membership record, received no initiations beyond
        the
        > second, despite years of devotion to Eckankar. One often may hear
        > Eckists parroting that such outer initiations matter little, yet
        > privately, most Eckists seem to feel very strongly about the
        > initiations they are awarded.
        > > >
        > This isn't spoken of very much out in the open in Eckankar, but
        > people such as the woman in the example can become quite
        > disillusioned and depressed over not keeping up with their peers,
        > feeling left behind, unwanted, and forgotten by the Mahanta. They
        see
        > others who are seemingly less deserving receiving initiations,
        > whereas they, despite being very devoted to Eckankar and the
        > associated disciplines, seem to fall hopelessly behind. Due to
        > Eckankar's policy that one not ever request initiations, many
        suffer
        > in silence, sensing justifiably that something isn't quite right,
        yet
        > fear to even ask about the possibility of an error. In many cases,
        > even when they do ask, they face a stony silence from the org, or
        are
        > told they are being "tested" spiritually, when all that is needed
        is
        > a quick check of the record. This is one of the way's such a system
        > can inflict undue pain upon its members, and is one reason I am
        > taking the time to write about this in detail.
        > > >
        > Think about the numbers involved in the initiation approval
        process.
        > If there are, as claimed, 50,000 members in the org, and each is
        > considered for an initiation every five years or so, then that
        would
        > average 10,000 per year, or 833 per month, or about 40 per day
        > (excluding weekends), or about one initiation to be approved every
        10
        > to 15 minutes in an average eight hour day. Klemp would have to
        work
        > full time on initiations every day for the rest of his life to
        spend
        > 10 to 15 minutes every five years on the "individual" member (do
        the
        > math and see for yourself). Klemp has said that he checks the inner
        > akashic and soul records to make such a choice. Remember that this
        > would have to be done to merely consider a person for initiation,
        > that is, to give each chela the individual attention and
        > consideration that is due, whether or not the chela is actually
        > approved for initiation.
        > > >
        > Klemp would have to live out of the body most of his life to
        > accomplish such a feat. He would have no time for seminars, writing
        > his constant supply of books, writing his speeches, eating,
        drinking,
        > sleeping, going to meetings, running the corporation, etc. For
        those
        > who argue that such reading of soul records does not take time,
        > consider that Klemp has discontinued private requests for
        > consultations to do soul readings because, according to him, it
        takes
        > hours to accomplish an accurate reading of the soul records of just
        > one person. Thus, a mere fifteen minutes would not be sufficient to
        > approve an initiation, even if he did spend all day, every day of
        his
        > life approving initiations. Think about this!
        > > >
        > From this it can be deduced that Klemp has, for the most part,
        > nothing to do with the initiations, other than, perhaps, performing
        a
        > perfunctory blessing of them in the eckankar offices to fool the
        > membership. He simply doesn't have the time.
        > > >
        > Remember this key point: It's a fact that someone would have to act
        > on the physical plane to approve the initiations and physically
        send
        > out pink slips. No matter how you slice it, this person (or more
        > likely, persons) is not the Living Eck Master, but rather, several
        > paid employees.
        > > >
        > Some people argue that the true initiations are "inner," and
        > therefore the outer initiations are not the true initiations. The
        > fallacy in the logic of this argument is that Twitchell originally
        > stated that the inner initiation comes before the outer, due to the
        > principle of "as above, so below," which means that outer events
        > occur on the inner first, manifesting outwardly later. Klemp has
        > attempted to confuse people by reversing this, claiming that it
        takes
        > time to grow into an initiation. But here Klemp contradicts
        himself,
        > since Klemp has expressly stated in writing that he personally
        > approves the outer initiations by reading the inner soul records.
        > This means the person receiving the outer initiation would have,
        > according to Klemp's own written statements, already have the inner
        > preparation, and thus would have received the inner initiation. It
        is
        > absurd to conclude that Klemp, in taking time to read the soul
        > records to approve the outer initiation, would not include as part
        of
        > that time and effort the giving of the actual inner initiation, if
        > after having read the soul records it was determined the chela was
        > eligible for the initiation. Thus, the logic that the inner and
        outer
        > initiations are separate and not inextricably linked is denied in
        > statements by Eckankar's only presumed authority, the Living Eck
        > Master, Harold Klemp. And the obvious fact is, Klemp would not have
        > the requisite time that he has stated is necessary to read so many
        > soul records each day of his life. He has been caught up in his own
        > contradictory statements and revealed himself to be a fraud.
        > > >
        > Thus, the initiations are entirely bogus. They represent nothing
        more
        > than organizational status. Observe the behavior of the online
        > clergy. These are not enlightened beings. They are ordinary people
        > caught up in the throes of everyday life, like most people are in
        the
        > rest of the world.
        > > >
        > Kent
        >
      • mishmisha9
        ... The other was an elderly woman ... *********************************************************************** Pretujari, this story about the elderly woman
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 5, 2007
          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "pretujari"
          <pretujari@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Hello,
          > This reminds me of two scenerios regarding the initiations. One was
          > to do with a couple. The husband was really perplexed when the pink
          > slip came for him and the wife for their 4th. According to the man,
          > he never understood why his wife also received the 4th because she
          > was quarrellsome, never practiced her spiritual exercises, nor had
          > much time for Eckankar.He told me this when I explained the truth
          > about the eckankar initiations to him.


          The other was an elderly woman
          > who was very close to me . She confided in me amidst tears that she
          > had stayed in the 3rd initiation for years. As she cried while
          > narrating this, she wondered why and what she had done, since others
          > who came after her had bypassed her in initiations. Unfortunately,
          > she did not live long enough to know the truth. Am sure all has been
          > made clear to her on the other side.
          > Pretujari.
          >

          ***********************************************************************

          Pretujari, this story about the elderly woman demonstrates why
          eckankar is not a benign cult! It is really sad that she was so
          tormented about making those initiation levels up until her time
          of passing! Shame on Klemp and his fraudulent org for sucking
          the life out of innocent Souls who just want to achieve a sincere
          connection with God! I feel both sad and angry to think of this
          woman's sorrow--it's not a good way to live one's life feeling passed
          over like that!

          Klemp will ultimately pay for his lies and deceptions! He talks about
          fear so I have to wonder if he doesn't suffer from real fears in
          knowing that he has been committing these great spiritual crimes?

          Eckankar is not harmless in that it does damage Souls.

          Mish

          **************************************************************************

          >
          >
          >
          > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater"
          > <tianyue@> wrote:
          > >
          >
          >
          > > Ex-Initiator's Guide to Initiations
          > >
          > > [I've posted an earlier version of this before, and with the
          > > discussion of secret words that has been ongoing on another group,
          > I
          > > thought this might be a good time to repost this. I've revised
          > this,
          > > and added rebuttles to comments Eckists have made to the original.-
          > > K.A.]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > When I received the sixth initiation, I had essentially already
          > > decided to leave Eckankar. I was still hanging on out of some
          > slight
          > > uncertainty, and also had decided to maintain my membership due to
          > > the fact that my partner, Lisa, still remained loyal to Eckankar. A
          > > year or two had passed while I was in this state of serious doubt
          > and
          > > skepticism, when the pink slip for the sixth initiation came. I was
          > > surprised to say the least. Yet I wasn't too surprised. This
          > > confirmed what I already suspected: Initiations are not overseen or
          > > approved by a Mahanta or some omniscient being, but by a computer,
          > > with the assistance of initiate reports, and recommendations by the
          > > local Resa and other local High Initiates. I remained in Eckankar
          > for
          > > years after this, until the day my mate felt as I did, and we both
          > > resigned.
          > >
          > > Lest there are those in Eckankar who don't yet know this, lists are
          > > periodically sent out with names generated by a computer to the
          > state
          > > Resa (Regional Eck Spiritual Aid), who confers with local High
          > > Initiates to either recommend or not, an initiation (Klemp himself
          > > wrote of the computers producing the initiation lists a while back
          > as
          > > I recall). Around the time I left Eckankar, most Eckists were
          > > automatically placed on the list every four or five years or so. If
          > > for some reason an Eckist was denied, they would usually show up
          > > again on the next year's list. Local H.I.'s in my area (including
          > > myself) would routinely talk over the names on the list via the
          > > telephone, and give their recommendations to the Resa according to
          > > each chela's loyalty and degree of outer service to the org. Those
          > > who were especially "troublesome" could be denied the initiation.
          > The
          > > Resa emphasized loyalty as the most important trait. The results
          > from
          > > the Resa are sent back to Minneapolis HQ where assistants appointed
          > > by Harold approve or deny the initiation based on such things as
          > the
          > > time served as a dues paying member, the Resa recommendations, and
          > > initiate reports. Some, including myself, have observed that
          > initiate
          > > reports (especially those which are positive or are written in
          > praise
          > > of the org) definitely can play a role in the initiation approval
          > > process.
          > >
          > > Despite this, few people were denied an initiation if they were on
          > > the list. Eckankar has a very liberal policy toward initiations. I
          > > noticed that those who followed the disciplines well fared no
          > better
          > > or worse than those who didn't. I noticed people who smoked, drank
          > or
          > > never did their exercises stood just as great a chance of receiving
          > > the fifth initiation as anyone <G>. More than anything, the
          > > initiations were awarded based on time as a member. The rate at
          > which
          > > initiations were received could be accelerated or delayed based on
          > > the chelas relationship with local H.I.'s and, especially, the
          > state
          > > Resa, who has a great deal of influence in such matters.
          > >
          > > And one other thing is clear: Those who do not substantially
          > conform
          > > to the expectations of the group are the ones most likely to be
          > > denied an initiation. Despite this, the H.I.'s or Resa's in
          > different
          > > areas may vary in their tolerance levels, which accounts for the
          > > stories heard about individuals who never received initiations in
          > one
          > > locale suddenly begin to receive them after moving to another area.
          > > Also, I've witnessed initiations being approved after three or four
          > > H.I's gave their unsolicited recommendations to Spiritual Services
          > on
          > > behalf of certain chelas who were thought of as exceptionally
          > > deserving.
          > >
          > > I once had a friend who was extremely devoted to Eckankar, who had
          > > lived in a remote area during most of her time as a member, and
          > > didn't realize Eckankar's policy that time served as a dues paying
          > > member counted toward initiation. As a result, she didn't receive
          > > initiations for years do to the fact that she kept forgetting to
          > > renew her membership, thinking such things to be of the material
          > > worlds! She had no idea such trivialities mattered to the
          > omniscient
          > > Mahanta! This woman had a life membership (at one time you could
          > pay
          > > a large one time fee, $2,000, for a membership for life) but was
          > > still required to notify Eckankar of her intent to renew annually,
          > > though no additional fee was required. She didn't think such
          > > formalities were all that important, and as a result, due to a less
          > > than exemplary membership record, received no initiations beyond
          > the
          > > second, despite years of devotion to Eckankar. One often may hear
          > > Eckists parroting that such outer initiations matter little, yet
          > > privately, most Eckists seem to feel very strongly about the
          > > initiations they are awarded.
          > >
          > > This isn't spoken of very much out in the open in Eckankar, but
          > > people such as the woman in the example can become quite
          > > disillusioned and depressed over not keeping up with their peers,
          > > feeling left behind, unwanted, and forgotten by the Mahanta. They
          > see
          > > others who are seemingly less deserving receiving initiations,
          > > whereas they, despite being very devoted to Eckankar and the
          > > associated disciplines, seem to fall hopelessly behind. Due to
          > > Eckankar's policy that one not ever request initiations, many
          > suffer
          > > in silence, sensing justifiably that something isn't quite right,
          > yet
          > > fear to even ask about the possibility of an error. In many cases,
          > > even when they do ask, they face a stony silence from the org, or
          > are
          > > told they are being "tested" spiritually, when all that is needed
          > is
          > > a quick check of the record. This is one of the way's such a system
          > > can inflict undue pain upon its members, and is one reason I am
          > > taking the time to write about this in detail.
          > >
          > > Think about the numbers involved in the initiation approval
          > process.
          > > If there are, as claimed, 50,000 members in the org, and each is
          > > considered for an initiation every five years or so, then that
          > would
          > > average 10,000 per year, or 833 per month, or about 40 per day
          > > (excluding weekends), or about one initiation to be approved every
          > 10
          > > to 15 minutes in an average eight hour day. Klemp would have to
          > work
          > > full time on initiations every day for the rest of his life to
          > spend
          > > 10 to 15 minutes every five years on the "individual" member (do
          > the
          > > math and see for yourself). Klemp has said that he checks the inner
          > > akashic and soul records to make such a choice. Remember that this
          > > would have to be done to merely consider a person for initiation,
          > > that is, to give each chela the individual attention and
          > > consideration that is due, whether or not the chela is actually
          > > approved for initiation.
          > >
          > > Klemp would have to live out of the body most of his life to
          > > accomplish such a feat. He would have no time for seminars, writing
          > > his constant supply of books, writing his speeches, eating,
          > drinking,
          > > sleeping, going to meetings, running the corporation, etc. For
          > those
          > > who argue that such reading of soul records does not take time,
          > > consider that Klemp has discontinued private requests for
          > > consultations to do soul readings because, according to him, it
          > takes
          > > hours to accomplish an accurate reading of the soul records of just
          > > one person. Thus, a mere fifteen minutes would not be sufficient to
          > > approve an initiation, even if he did spend all day, every day of
          > his
          > > life approving initiations. Think about this!
          > >
          > > From this it can be deduced that Klemp has, for the most part,
          > > nothing to do with the initiations, other than, perhaps, performing
          > a
          > > perfunctory blessing of them in the eckankar offices to fool the
          > > membership. He simply doesn't have the time.
          > >
          > > Remember this key point: It's a fact that someone would have to act
          > > on the physical plane to approve the initiations and physically
          > send
          > > out pink slips. No matter how you slice it, this person (or more
          > > likely, persons) is not the Living Eck Master, but rather, several
          > > paid employees.
          > >
          > > Some people argue that the true initiations are "inner," and
          > > therefore the outer initiations are not the true initiations. The
          > > fallacy in the logic of this argument is that Twitchell originally
          > > stated that the inner initiation comes before the outer, due to the
          > > principle of "as above, so below," which means that outer events
          > > occur on the inner first, manifesting outwardly later. Klemp has
          > > attempted to confuse people by reversing this, claiming that it
          > takes
          > > time to grow into an initiation. But here Klemp contradicts
          > himself,
          > > since Klemp has expressly stated in writing that he personally
          > > approves the outer initiations by reading the inner soul records.
          > > This means the person receiving the outer initiation would have,
          > > according to Klemp's own written statements, already have the inner
          > > preparation, and thus would have received the inner initiation. It
          > is
          > > absurd to conclude that Klemp, in taking time to read the soul
          > > records to approve the outer initiation, would not include as part
          > of
          > > that time and effort the giving of the actual inner initiation, if
          > > after having read the soul records it was determined the chela was
          > > eligible for the initiation. Thus, the logic that the inner and
          > outer
          > > initiations are separate and not inextricably linked is denied in
          > > statements by Eckankar's only presumed authority, the Living Eck
          > > Master, Harold Klemp. And the obvious fact is, Klemp would not have
          > > the requisite time that he has stated is necessary to read so many
          > > soul records each day of his life. He has been caught up in his own
          > > contradictory statements and revealed himself to be a fraud.
          > >
          > > Thus, the initiations are entirely bogus. They represent nothing
          > more
          > > than organizational status. Observe the behavior of the online
          > > clergy. These are not enlightened beings. They are ordinary people
          > > caught up in the throes of everyday life, like most people are in
          > the
          > > rest of the world.
          > >
          > > Kent
          > >
          >
        • tomleafeater
          ... woman ... others ... been ... Thanks for the reply, Pretujari. Yes, you have captured well the meaning of the story in my post with your own anecdotes.
          Message 4 of 11 , Feb 5, 2007
            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "pretujari"
            <pretujari@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Hello,
            > This reminds me of two scenerios regarding the initiations. One was
            > to do with a couple. The husband was really perplexed when the pink
            > slip came for him and the wife for their 4th. According to the man,
            > he never understood why his wife also received the 4th because she
            > was quarrellsome, never practiced her spiritual exercises, nor had
            > much time for Eckankar.He told me this when I explained the truth
            > about the eckankar initiations to him. The other was an elderly
            woman
            > who was very close to me . She confided in me amidst tears that she
            > had stayed in the 3rd initiation for years. As she cried while
            > narrating this, she wondered why and what she had done, since
            others
            > who came after her had bypassed her in initiations. Unfortunately,
            > she did not live long enough to know the truth. Am sure all has
            been
            > made clear to her on the other side.
            > Pretujari.




            Thanks for the reply, Pretujari. Yes, you have captured well the
            meaning of the story in my post with your own anecdotes. Frankly,
            during my 28 years in eckankar I'd witnessed many such individuals
            who sincerely wanted to find enlightenment only to become caught up
            in the completely unfair initiation process. People in eckankar like
            to pretend they are "detached" about such things, but the real truth
            is that the initiations become very important milestones to eckists,
            and when they are unfairly awarded, which they are, serious affects
            occur in members.

            Again, thanks for your great reply. I think your post really helps to
            bring out the harmful effects of the bogus "initiations" on members.

            Kent




            >
            > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater"
            > <tianyue@> wrote:
            > >
            >
            >
            > > Ex-Initiator's Guide to Initiations
            > >
            > > [I've posted an earlier version of this before, and with the
            > > discussion of secret words that has been ongoing on another
            group,
            > I
            > > thought this might be a good time to repost this. I've revised
            > this,
            > > and added rebuttles to comments Eckists have made to the
            original.-
            > > K.A.]
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > When I received the sixth initiation, I had essentially already
            > > decided to leave Eckankar. I was still hanging on out of some
            > slight
            > > uncertainty, and also had decided to maintain my membership due
            to
            > > the fact that my partner, Lisa, still remained loyal to Eckankar.
            A
            > > year or two had passed while I was in this state of serious doubt
            > and
            > > skepticism, when the pink slip for the sixth initiation came. I
            was
            > > surprised to say the least. Yet I wasn't too surprised. This
            > > confirmed what I already suspected: Initiations are not overseen
            or
            > > approved by a Mahanta or some omniscient being, but by a
            computer,
            > > with the assistance of initiate reports, and recommendations by
            the
            > > local Resa and other local High Initiates. I remained in Eckankar
            > for
            > > years after this, until the day my mate felt as I did, and we
            both
            > > resigned.
            > >
            > > Lest there are those in Eckankar who don't yet know this, lists
            are
            > > periodically sent out with names generated by a computer to the
            > state
            > > Resa (Regional Eck Spiritual Aid), who confers with local High
            > > Initiates to either recommend or not, an initiation (Klemp
            himself
            > > wrote of the computers producing the initiation lists a while
            back
            > as
            > > I recall). Around the time I left Eckankar, most Eckists were
            > > automatically placed on the list every four or five years or so.
            If
            > > for some reason an Eckist was denied, they would usually show up
            > > again on the next year's list. Local H.I.'s in my area (including
            > > myself) would routinely talk over the names on the list via the
            > > telephone, and give their recommendations to the Resa according
            to
            > > each chela's loyalty and degree of outer service to the org.
            Those
            > > who were especially "troublesome" could be denied the initiation.
            > The
            > > Resa emphasized loyalty as the most important trait. The results
            > from
            > > the Resa are sent back to Minneapolis HQ where assistants
            appointed
            > > by Harold approve or deny the initiation based on such things as
            > the
            > > time served as a dues paying member, the Resa recommendations,
            and
            > > initiate reports. Some, including myself, have observed that
            > initiate
            > > reports (especially those which are positive or are written in
            > praise
            > > of the org) definitely can play a role in the initiation approval
            > > process.
            > >
            > > Despite this, few people were denied an initiation if they were
            on
            > > the list. Eckankar has a very liberal policy toward initiations.
            I
            > > noticed that those who followed the disciplines well fared no
            > better
            > > or worse than those who didn't. I noticed people who smoked,
            drank
            > or
            > > never did their exercises stood just as great a chance of
            receiving
            > > the fifth initiation as anyone <G>. More than anything, the
            > > initiations were awarded based on time as a member. The rate at
            > which
            > > initiations were received could be accelerated or delayed based
            on
            > > the chelas relationship with local H.I.'s and, especially, the
            > state
            > > Resa, who has a great deal of influence in such matters.
            > >
            > > And one other thing is clear: Those who do not substantially
            > conform
            > > to the expectations of the group are the ones most likely to be
            > > denied an initiation. Despite this, the H.I.'s or Resa's in
            > different
            > > areas may vary in their tolerance levels, which accounts for the
            > > stories heard about individuals who never received initiations in
            > one
            > > locale suddenly begin to receive them after moving to another
            area.
            > > Also, I've witnessed initiations being approved after three or
            four
            > > H.I's gave their unsolicited recommendations to Spiritual
            Services
            > on
            > > behalf of certain chelas who were thought of as exceptionally
            > > deserving.
            > >
            > > I once had a friend who was extremely devoted to Eckankar, who
            had
            > > lived in a remote area during most of her time as a member, and
            > > didn't realize Eckankar's policy that time served as a dues
            paying
            > > member counted toward initiation. As a result, she didn't receive
            > > initiations for years do to the fact that she kept forgetting to
            > > renew her membership, thinking such things to be of the material
            > > worlds! She had no idea such trivialities mattered to the
            > omniscient
            > > Mahanta! This woman had a life membership (at one time you could
            > pay
            > > a large one time fee, $2,000, for a membership for life) but was
            > > still required to notify Eckankar of her intent to renew
            annually,
            > > though no additional fee was required. She didn't think such
            > > formalities were all that important, and as a result, due to a
            less
            > > than exemplary membership record, received no initiations beyond
            > the
            > > second, despite years of devotion to Eckankar. One often may hear
            > > Eckists parroting that such outer initiations matter little, yet
            > > privately, most Eckists seem to feel very strongly about the
            > > initiations they are awarded.
            > >
            > > This isn't spoken of very much out in the open in Eckankar, but
            > > people such as the woman in the example can become quite
            > > disillusioned and depressed over not keeping up with their peers,
            > > feeling left behind, unwanted, and forgotten by the Mahanta. They
            > see
            > > others who are seemingly less deserving receiving initiations,
            > > whereas they, despite being very devoted to Eckankar and the
            > > associated disciplines, seem to fall hopelessly behind. Due to
            > > Eckankar's policy that one not ever request initiations, many
            > suffer
            > > in silence, sensing justifiably that something isn't quite right,
            > yet
            > > fear to even ask about the possibility of an error. In many
            cases,
            > > even when they do ask, they face a stony silence from the org, or
            > are
            > > told they are being "tested" spiritually, when all that is needed
            > is
            > > a quick check of the record. This is one of the way's such a
            system
            > > can inflict undue pain upon its members, and is one reason I am
            > > taking the time to write about this in detail.
            > >
            > > Think about the numbers involved in the initiation approval
            > process.
            > > If there are, as claimed, 50,000 members in the org, and each is
            > > considered for an initiation every five years or so, then that
            > would
            > > average 10,000 per year, or 833 per month, or about 40 per day
            > > (excluding weekends), or about one initiation to be approved
            every
            > 10
            > > to 15 minutes in an average eight hour day. Klemp would have to
            > work
            > > full time on initiations every day for the rest of his life to
            > spend
            > > 10 to 15 minutes every five years on the "individual" member (do
            > the
            > > math and see for yourself). Klemp has said that he checks the
            inner
            > > akashic and soul records to make such a choice. Remember that
            this
            > > would have to be done to merely consider a person for initiation,
            > > that is, to give each chela the individual attention and
            > > consideration that is due, whether or not the chela is actually
            > > approved for initiation.
            > >
            > > Klemp would have to live out of the body most of his life to
            > > accomplish such a feat. He would have no time for seminars,
            writing
            > > his constant supply of books, writing his speeches, eating,
            > drinking,
            > > sleeping, going to meetings, running the corporation, etc. For
            > those
            > > who argue that such reading of soul records does not take time,
            > > consider that Klemp has discontinued private requests for
            > > consultations to do soul readings because, according to him, it
            > takes
            > > hours to accomplish an accurate reading of the soul records of
            just
            > > one person. Thus, a mere fifteen minutes would not be sufficient
            to
            > > approve an initiation, even if he did spend all day, every day of
            > his
            > > life approving initiations. Think about this!
            > >
            > > From this it can be deduced that Klemp has, for the most part,
            > > nothing to do with the initiations, other than, perhaps,
            performing
            > a
            > > perfunctory blessing of them in the eckankar offices to fool the
            > > membership. He simply doesn't have the time.
            > >
            > > Remember this key point: It's a fact that someone would have to
            act
            > > on the physical plane to approve the initiations and physically
            > send
            > > out pink slips. No matter how you slice it, this person (or more
            > > likely, persons) is not the Living Eck Master, but rather,
            several
            > > paid employees.
            > >
            > > Some people argue that the true initiations are "inner," and
            > > therefore the outer initiations are not the true initiations. The
            > > fallacy in the logic of this argument is that Twitchell
            originally
            > > stated that the inner initiation comes before the outer, due to
            the
            > > principle of "as above, so below," which means that outer events
            > > occur on the inner first, manifesting outwardly later. Klemp has
            > > attempted to confuse people by reversing this, claiming that it
            > takes
            > > time to grow into an initiation. But here Klemp contradicts
            > himself,
            > > since Klemp has expressly stated in writing that he personally
            > > approves the outer initiations by reading the inner soul records.
            > > This means the person receiving the outer initiation would have,
            > > according to Klemp's own written statements, already have the
            inner
            > > preparation, and thus would have received the inner initiation.
            It
            > is
            > > absurd to conclude that Klemp, in taking time to read the soul
            > > records to approve the outer initiation, would not include as
            part
            > of
            > > that time and effort the giving of the actual inner initiation,
            if
            > > after having read the soul records it was determined the chela
            was
            > > eligible for the initiation. Thus, the logic that the inner and
            > outer
            > > initiations are separate and not inextricably linked is denied in
            > > statements by Eckankar's only presumed authority, the Living Eck
            > > Master, Harold Klemp. And the obvious fact is, Klemp would not
            have
            > > the requisite time that he has stated is necessary to read so
            many
            > > soul records each day of his life. He has been caught up in his
            own
            > > contradictory statements and revealed himself to be a fraud.
            > >
            > > Thus, the initiations are entirely bogus. They represent nothing
            > more
            > > than organizational status. Observe the behavior of the online
            > > clergy. These are not enlightened beings. They are ordinary
            people
            > > caught up in the throes of everyday life, like most people are in
            > the
            > > rest of the world.
            > >
            > > Kent
            > >
            >
          • prometheus_973
            The arbitrary way in which the ECK Initiations come to ECKists proves that there is no inner communication with their Master. There is no equality of
            Message 5 of 11 , Feb 6, 2007
              The arbitrary way in which the ECK Initiations come to
              ECKists proves that there is no inner communication
              with their Master. There is no equality of consciousness
              within the same Circle of Initiation! It's not even close!
              Therefore, how can there be any truth in the words:
              'I am always with you.' It's a lie that innocent people
              have willingly bought into because they want and need
              to believe in the lie of religion. And, the Eckankar religion
              may be different and unique and give more answers when
              compared to most other religions, but that doesn't mean
              it's all true. Except for the LEM/Mahanta, the Initiations,
              and the ECK Masters much of what Twitchell "compiled"
              has some merit for Soul's individual investigation/journey.

              Prometheus


              pretujari wrote:
              > >

              Hello,
              This reminds me of two scenerios regarding the initiations. One was
              to do with a couple. The husband was really perplexed when the pink
              slip came for him and the wife for their 4th. According to the man,
              he never understood why his wife also received the 4th because she
              was quarrellsome, never practiced her spiritual exercises, nor had
              much time for Eckankar.He told me this when I explained the truth
              about the eckankar initiations to him.
              >

              The other was an elderly woman who was very close to me.
              She confided in me amidst tears that she had stayed in the
              3rd initiation for years. As she cried while narrating this, she
              wondered why and what she had done, since others who came
              after her had bypassed her in initiations. Unfortunately, she
              did not live long enough to know the truth. Am sure all has been
              made clear to her on the other side.
              Pretujari.

              >
              ***********************************************************************
              >
              Pretujari, this story about the elderly woman demonstrates why
              eckankar is not a benign cult! It is really sad that she was so
              tormented about making those initiation levels up until her time
              of passing! Shame on Klemp and his fraudulent org for sucking
              the life out of innocent Souls who just want to achieve a sincere
              connection with God! I feel both sad and angry to think of this
              woman's sorrow--it's not a good way to live one's life feeling passed
              over like that!
              >
              Klemp will ultimately pay for his lies and deceptions! He talks about
              fear so I have to wonder if he doesn't suffer from real fears in
              knowing that he has been committing these great spiritual crimes?
              >
              Eckankar is not harmless in that it does damage Souls.
              >
              Mish

              > **************************************************************************
              tianyue wrote:
              > >
              > >
              Ex-Initiator's Guide to Initiations
              > > >
              [I've posted an earlier version of this before, and with the
              discussion of secret words that has been ongoing on another group,
              I thought this might be a good time to repost this. I've revised
              this, and added rebuttles to comments Eckists have made to the original.-
              K.A.]

              > > >
              > > >
              > > > When I received the sixth initiation, I had essentially already
              > > > decided to leave Eckankar. I was still hanging on out of some
              > > slight
              > > > uncertainty, and also had decided to maintain my membership due to
              > > > the fact that my partner, Lisa, still remained loyal to Eckankar. A
              > > > year or two had passed while I was in this state of serious doubt
              > > and
              > > > skepticism, when the pink slip for the sixth initiation came. I was
              > > > surprised to say the least. Yet I wasn't too surprised. This
              > > > confirmed what I already suspected: Initiations are not overseen or
              > > > approved by a Mahanta or some omniscient being, but by a computer,
              > > > with the assistance of initiate reports, and recommendations by the
              > > > local Resa and other local High Initiates. I remained in Eckankar
              > > for
              > > > years after this, until the day my mate felt as I did, and we both
              > > > resigned.
              > > >
              > > > Lest there are those in Eckankar who don't yet know this, lists are
              > > > periodically sent out with names generated by a computer to the
              > > state
              > > > Resa (Regional Eck Spiritual Aid), who confers with local High
              > > > Initiates to either recommend or not, an initiation (Klemp himself
              > > > wrote of the computers producing the initiation lists a while back
              > > as
              > > > I recall). Around the time I left Eckankar, most Eckists were
              > > > automatically placed on the list every four or five years or so. If
              > > > for some reason an Eckist was denied, they would usually show up
              > > > again on the next year's list. Local H.I.'s in my area (including
              > > > myself) would routinely talk over the names on the list via the
              > > > telephone, and give their recommendations to the Resa according to
              > > > each chela's loyalty and degree of outer service to the org. Those
              > > > who were especially "troublesome" could be denied the initiation.
              > > The
              > > > Resa emphasized loyalty as the most important trait. The results
              > > from
              > > > the Resa are sent back to Minneapolis HQ where assistants appointed
              > > > by Harold approve or deny the initiation based on such things as
              > > the
              > > > time served as a dues paying member, the Resa recommendations, and
              > > > initiate reports. Some, including myself, have observed that
              > > initiate
              > > > reports (especially those which are positive or are written in
              > > praise
              > > > of the org) definitely can play a role in the initiation approval
              > > > process.
              > > >
              > > > Despite this, few people were denied an initiation if they were on
              > > > the list. Eckankar has a very liberal policy toward initiations. I
              > > > noticed that those who followed the disciplines well fared no
              > > better
              > > > or worse than those who didn't. I noticed people who smoked, drank
              > > or
              > > > never did their exercises stood just as great a chance of receiving
              > > > the fifth initiation as anyone <G>. More than anything, the
              > > > initiations were awarded based on time as a member. The rate at
              > > which
              > > > initiations were received could be accelerated or delayed based on
              > > > the chelas relationship with local H.I.'s and, especially, the
              > > state
              > > > Resa, who has a great deal of influence in such matters.
              > > >
              > > > And one other thing is clear: Those who do not substantially
              > > conform
              > > > to the expectations of the group are the ones most likely to be
              > > > denied an initiation. Despite this, the H.I.'s or Resa's in
              > > different
              > > > areas may vary in their tolerance levels, which accounts for the
              > > > stories heard about individuals who never received initiations in
              > > one
              > > > locale suddenly begin to receive them after moving to another area.
              > > > Also, I've witnessed initiations being approved after three or four
              > > > H.I's gave their unsolicited recommendations to Spiritual Services
              > > on
              > > > behalf of certain chelas who were thought of as exceptionally
              > > > deserving.
              > > >
              > > > I once had a friend who was extremely devoted to Eckankar, who had
              > > > lived in a remote area during most of her time as a member, and
              > > > didn't realize Eckankar's policy that time served as a dues paying
              > > > member counted toward initiation. As a result, she didn't receive
              > > > initiations for years do to the fact that she kept forgetting to
              > > > renew her membership, thinking such things to be of the material
              > > > worlds! She had no idea such trivialities mattered to the
              > > omniscient
              > > > Mahanta! This woman had a life membership (at one time you could
              > > pay
              > > > a large one time fee, $2,000, for a membership for life) but was
              > > > still required to notify Eckankar of her intent to renew annually,
              > > > though no additional fee was required. She didn't think such
              > > > formalities were all that important, and as a result, due to a less
              > > > than exemplary membership record, received no initiations beyond
              > > the
              > > > second, despite years of devotion to Eckankar. One often may hear
              > > > Eckists parroting that such outer initiations matter little, yet
              > > > privately, most Eckists seem to feel very strongly about the
              > > > initiations they are awarded.
              > > >
              > > > This isn't spoken of very much out in the open in Eckankar, but
              > > > people such as the woman in the example can become quite
              > > > disillusioned and depressed over not keeping up with their peers,
              > > > feeling left behind, unwanted, and forgotten by the Mahanta. They
              > > see
              > > > others who are seemingly less deserving receiving initiations,
              > > > whereas they, despite being very devoted to Eckankar and the
              > > > associated disciplines, seem to fall hopelessly behind. Due to
              > > > Eckankar's policy that one not ever request initiations, many
              > > suffer
              > > > in silence, sensing justifiably that something isn't quite right,
              > > yet
              > > > fear to even ask about the possibility of an error. In many cases,
              > > > even when they do ask, they face a stony silence from the org, or
              > > are
              > > > told they are being "tested" spiritually, when all that is needed
              > > is
              > > > a quick check of the record. This is one of the way's such a system
              > > > can inflict undue pain upon its members, and is one reason I am
              > > > taking the time to write about this in detail.
              > > >
              > > > Think about the numbers involved in the initiation approval
              > > process.
              > > > If there are, as claimed, 50,000 members in the org, and each is
              > > > considered for an initiation every five years or so, then that
              > > would
              > > > average 10,000 per year, or 833 per month, or about 40 per day
              > > > (excluding weekends), or about one initiation to be approved every
              > > 10
              > > > to 15 minutes in an average eight hour day. Klemp would have to
              > > work
              > > > full time on initiations every day for the rest of his life to
              > > spend
              > > > 10 to 15 minutes every five years on the "individual" member (do
              > > the
              > > > math and see for yourself). Klemp has said that he checks the inner
              > > > akashic and soul records to make such a choice. Remember that this
              > > > would have to be done to merely consider a person for initiation,
              > > > that is, to give each chela the individual attention and
              > > > consideration that is due, whether or not the chela is actually
              > > > approved for initiation.
              > > >
              > > > Klemp would have to live out of the body most of his life to
              > > > accomplish such a feat. He would have no time for seminars, writing
              > > > his constant supply of books, writing his speeches, eating,
              > > drinking,
              > > > sleeping, going to meetings, running the corporation, etc. For
              > > those
              > > > who argue that such reading of soul records does not take time,
              > > > consider that Klemp has discontinued private requests for
              > > > consultations to do soul readings because, according to him, it
              > > takes
              > > > hours to accomplish an accurate reading of the soul records of just
              > > > one person. Thus, a mere fifteen minutes would not be sufficient to
              > > > approve an initiation, even if he did spend all day, every day of
              > > his
              > > > life approving initiations. Think about this!
              > > >
              > > > From this it can be deduced that Klemp has, for the most part,
              > > > nothing to do with the initiations, other than, perhaps, performing
              > > a
              > > > perfunctory blessing of them in the eckankar offices to fool the
              > > > membership. He simply doesn't have the time.
              > > >
              > > > Remember this key point: It's a fact that someone would have to act
              > > > on the physical plane to approve the initiations and physically
              > > send
              > > > out pink slips. No matter how you slice it, this person (or more
              > > > likely, persons) is not the Living Eck Master, but rather, several
              > > > paid employees.
              > > >
              > > > Some people argue that the true initiations are "inner," and
              > > > therefore the outer initiations are not the true initiations. The
              > > > fallacy in the logic of this argument is that Twitchell originally
              > > > stated that the inner initiation comes before the outer, due to the
              > > > principle of "as above, so below," which means that outer events
              > > > occur on the inner first, manifesting outwardly later. Klemp has
              > > > attempted to confuse people by reversing this, claiming that it
              > > takes
              > > > time to grow into an initiation. But here Klemp contradicts
              > > himself,
              > > > since Klemp has expressly stated in writing that he personally
              > > > approves the outer initiations by reading the inner soul records.
              > > > This means the person receiving the outer initiation would have,
              > > > according to Klemp's own written statements, already have the inner
              > > > preparation, and thus would have received the inner initiation. It
              > > is
              > > > absurd to conclude that Klemp, in taking time to read the soul
              > > > records to approve the outer initiation, would not include as part
              > > of
              > > > that time and effort the giving of the actual inner initiation, if
              > > > after having read the soul records it was determined the chela was
              > > > eligible for the initiation. Thus, the logic that the inner and
              > > outer
              > > > initiations are separate and not inextricably linked is denied in
              > > > statements by Eckankar's only presumed authority, the Living Eck
              > > > Master, Harold Klemp. And the obvious fact is, Klemp would not have
              > > > the requisite time that he has stated is necessary to read so many
              > > > soul records each day of his life. He has been caught up in his own
              > > > contradictory statements and revealed himself to be a fraud.
              > > >
              > > > Thus, the initiations are entirely bogus. They represent nothing
              > > more
              > > > than organizational status. Observe the behavior of the online
              > > > clergy. These are not enlightened beings. They are ordinary people
              > > > caught up in the throes of everyday life, like most people are in
              > > the
              > > > rest of the world.
              > > >
              > > > Kent
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • ctecvie
              I know an ex-eckist who found David Lane and left the teachings silently. He began to translate David Lane s book into German and then the pink slip for his
              Message 6 of 11 , Feb 6, 2007
                I know an ex-eckist who found David Lane and left the teachings
                silently. He began to translate David Lane's book into German and
                then the pink slip for his next initiation arrived.

                Perhaps the all-knowing mahanta thought this accomplishment was worth
                a reward! LOL!

                Ingrid

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                >
                > The arbitrary way in which the ECK Initiations come to
                > ECKists proves that there is no inner communication
                > with their Master. There is no equality of consciousness
                > within the same Circle of Initiation! It's not even close!
                > Therefore, how can there be any truth in the words:
                > 'I am always with you.' It's a lie that innocent people
                > have willingly bought into because they want and need
                > to believe in the lie of religion. And, the Eckankar religion
                > may be different and unique and give more answers when
                > compared to most other religions, but that doesn't mean
                > it's all true. Except for the LEM/Mahanta, the Initiations,
                > and the ECK Masters much of what Twitchell "compiled"
                > has some merit for Soul's individual investigation/journey.
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                >
                > pretujari wrote:
                > > >
                >
                > Hello,
                > This reminds me of two scenerios regarding the initiations. One was
                > to do with a couple. The husband was really perplexed when the pink
                > slip came for him and the wife for their 4th. According to the man,
                > he never understood why his wife also received the 4th because she
                > was quarrellsome, never practiced her spiritual exercises, nor had
                > much time for Eckankar.He told me this when I explained the truth
                > about the eckankar initiations to him.
                > >
                >
                > The other was an elderly woman who was very close to me.
                > She confided in me amidst tears that she had stayed in the
                > 3rd initiation for years. As she cried while narrating this, she
                > wondered why and what she had done, since others who came
                > after her had bypassed her in initiations. Unfortunately, she
                > did not live long enough to know the truth. Am sure all has been
                > made clear to her on the other side.
                > Pretujari.
                >
                > >
                >
                **********************************************************************
                *
                > >
                > Pretujari, this story about the elderly woman demonstrates why
                > eckankar is not a benign cult! It is really sad that she was so
                > tormented about making those initiation levels up until her time
                > of passing! Shame on Klemp and his fraudulent org for sucking
                > the life out of innocent Souls who just want to achieve a sincere
                > connection with God! I feel both sad and angry to think of this
                > woman's sorrow--it's not a good way to live one's life feeling
                passed
                > over like that!
                > >
                > Klemp will ultimately pay for his lies and deceptions! He talks
                about
                > fear so I have to wonder if he doesn't suffer from real fears in
                > knowing that he has been committing these great spiritual crimes?
                > >
                > Eckankar is not harmless in that it does damage Souls.
                > >
                > Mish
                >
                > >
                **********************************************************************
                ****
                > tianyue wrote:
                > > >
                > > >
                > Ex-Initiator's Guide to Initiations
                > > > >
                > [I've posted an earlier version of this before, and with the
                > discussion of secret words that has been ongoing on another group,
                > I thought this might be a good time to repost this. I've revised
                > this, and added rebuttles to comments Eckists have made to the
                original.-
                > K.A.]
                >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > When I received the sixth initiation, I had essentially
                already
                > > > > decided to leave Eckankar. I was still hanging on out of some
                > > > slight
                > > > > uncertainty, and also had decided to maintain my membership
                due to
                > > > > the fact that my partner, Lisa, still remained loyal to
                Eckankar. A
                > > > > year or two had passed while I was in this state of serious
                doubt
                > > > and
                > > > > skepticism, when the pink slip for the sixth initiation came.
                I was
                > > > > surprised to say the least. Yet I wasn't too surprised. This
                > > > > confirmed what I already suspected: Initiations are not
                overseen or
                > > > > approved by a Mahanta or some omniscient being, but by a
                computer,
                > > > > with the assistance of initiate reports, and recommendations
                by the
                > > > > local Resa and other local High Initiates. I remained in
                Eckankar
                > > > for
                > > > > years after this, until the day my mate felt as I did, and we
                both
                > > > > resigned.
                > > > >
                > > > > Lest there are those in Eckankar who don't yet know this,
                lists are
                > > > > periodically sent out with names generated by a computer to
                the
                > > > state
                > > > > Resa (Regional Eck Spiritual Aid), who confers with local
                High
                > > > > Initiates to either recommend or not, an initiation (Klemp
                himself
                > > > > wrote of the computers producing the initiation lists a while
                back
                > > > as
                > > > > I recall). Around the time I left Eckankar, most Eckists were
                > > > > automatically placed on the list every four or five years or
                so. If
                > > > > for some reason an Eckist was denied, they would usually show
                up
                > > > > again on the next year's list. Local H.I.'s in my area
                (including
                > > > > myself) would routinely talk over the names on the list via
                the
                > > > > telephone, and give their recommendations to the Resa
                according to
                > > > > each chela's loyalty and degree of outer service to the org.
                Those
                > > > > who were especially "troublesome" could be denied the
                initiation.
                > > > The
                > > > > Resa emphasized loyalty as the most important trait. The
                results
                > > > from
                > > > > the Resa are sent back to Minneapolis HQ where assistants
                appointed
                > > > > by Harold approve or deny the initiation based on such things
                as
                > > > the
                > > > > time served as a dues paying member, the Resa
                recommendations, and
                > > > > initiate reports. Some, including myself, have observed that
                > > > initiate
                > > > > reports (especially those which are positive or are written
                in
                > > > praise
                > > > > of the org) definitely can play a role in the initiation
                approval
                > > > > process.
                > > > >
                > > > > Despite this, few people were denied an initiation if they
                were on
                > > > > the list. Eckankar has a very liberal policy toward
                initiations. I
                > > > > noticed that those who followed the disciplines well fared no
                > > > better
                > > > > or worse than those who didn't. I noticed people who smoked,
                drank
                > > > or
                > > > > never did their exercises stood just as great a chance of
                receiving
                > > > > the fifth initiation as anyone <G>. More than anything, the
                > > > > initiations were awarded based on time as a member. The rate
                at
                > > > which
                > > > > initiations were received could be accelerated or delayed
                based on
                > > > > the chelas relationship with local H.I.'s and, especially,
                the
                > > > state
                > > > > Resa, who has a great deal of influence in such matters.
                > > > >
                > > > > And one other thing is clear: Those who do not substantially
                > > > conform
                > > > > to the expectations of the group are the ones most likely to
                be
                > > > > denied an initiation. Despite this, the H.I.'s or Resa's in
                > > > different
                > > > > areas may vary in their tolerance levels, which accounts for
                the
                > > > > stories heard about individuals who never received
                initiations in
                > > > one
                > > > > locale suddenly begin to receive them after moving to another
                area.
                > > > > Also, I've witnessed initiations being approved after three
                or four
                > > > > H.I's gave their unsolicited recommendations to Spiritual
                Services
                > > > on
                > > > > behalf of certain chelas who were thought of as exceptionally
                > > > > deserving.
                > > > >
                > > > > I once had a friend who was extremely devoted to Eckankar,
                who had
                > > > > lived in a remote area during most of her time as a member,
                and
                > > > > didn't realize Eckankar's policy that time served as a dues
                paying
                > > > > member counted toward initiation. As a result, she didn't
                receive
                > > > > initiations for years do to the fact that she kept forgetting
                to
                > > > > renew her membership, thinking such things to be of the
                material
                > > > > worlds! She had no idea such trivialities mattered to the
                > > > omniscient
                > > > > Mahanta! This woman had a life membership (at one time you
                could
                > > > pay
                > > > > a large one time fee, $2,000, for a membership for life) but
                was
                > > > > still required to notify Eckankar of her intent to renew
                annually,
                > > > > though no additional fee was required. She didn't think such
                > > > > formalities were all that important, and as a result, due to
                a less
                > > > > than exemplary membership record, received no initiations
                beyond
                > > > the
                > > > > second, despite years of devotion to Eckankar. One often may
                hear
                > > > > Eckists parroting that such outer initiations matter little,
                yet
                > > > > privately, most Eckists seem to feel very strongly about the
                > > > > initiations they are awarded.
                > > > >
                > > > > This isn't spoken of very much out in the open in Eckankar,
                but
                > > > > people such as the woman in the example can become quite
                > > > > disillusioned and depressed over not keeping up with their
                peers,
                > > > > feeling left behind, unwanted, and forgotten by the Mahanta.
                They
                > > > see
                > > > > others who are seemingly less deserving receiving
                initiations,
                > > > > whereas they, despite being very devoted to Eckankar and the
                > > > > associated disciplines, seem to fall hopelessly behind. Due
                to
                > > > > Eckankar's policy that one not ever request initiations, many
                > > > suffer
                > > > > in silence, sensing justifiably that something isn't quite
                right,
                > > > yet
                > > > > fear to even ask about the possibility of an error. In many
                cases,
                > > > > even when they do ask, they face a stony silence from the
                org, or
                > > > are
                > > > > told they are being "tested" spiritually, when all that is
                needed
                > > > is
                > > > > a quick check of the record. This is one of the way's such a
                system
                > > > > can inflict undue pain upon its members, and is one reason I
                am
                > > > > taking the time to write about this in detail.
                > > > >
                > > > > Think about the numbers involved in the initiation approval
                > > > process.
                > > > > If there are, as claimed, 50,000 members in the org, and each
                is
                > > > > considered for an initiation every five years or so, then
                that
                > > > would
                > > > > average 10,000 per year, or 833 per month, or about 40 per
                day
                > > > > (excluding weekends), or about one initiation to be approved
                every
                > > > 10
                > > > > to 15 minutes in an average eight hour day. Klemp would have
                to
                > > > work
                > > > > full time on initiations every day for the rest of his life
                to
                > > > spend
                > > > > 10 to 15 minutes every five years on the "individual" member
                (do
                > > > the
                > > > > math and see for yourself). Klemp has said that he checks the
                inner
                > > > > akashic and soul records to make such a choice. Remember that
                this
                > > > > would have to be done to merely consider a person for
                initiation,
                > > > > that is, to give each chela the individual attention and
                > > > > consideration that is due, whether or not the chela is
                actually
                > > > > approved for initiation.
                > > > >
                > > > > Klemp would have to live out of the body most of his life to
                > > > > accomplish such a feat. He would have no time for seminars,
                writing
                > > > > his constant supply of books, writing his speeches, eating,
                > > > drinking,
                > > > > sleeping, going to meetings, running the corporation, etc.
                For
                > > > those
                > > > > who argue that such reading of soul records does not take
                time,
                > > > > consider that Klemp has discontinued private requests for
                > > > > consultations to do soul readings because, according to him,
                it
                > > > takes
                > > > > hours to accomplish an accurate reading of the soul records
                of just
                > > > > one person. Thus, a mere fifteen minutes would not be
                sufficient to
                > > > > approve an initiation, even if he did spend all day, every
                day of
                > > > his
                > > > > life approving initiations. Think about this!
                > > > >
                > > > > From this it can be deduced that Klemp has, for the most
                part,
                > > > > nothing to do with the initiations, other than, perhaps,
                performing
                > > > a
                > > > > perfunctory blessing of them in the eckankar offices to fool
                the
                > > > > membership. He simply doesn't have the time.
                > > > >
                > > > > Remember this key point: It's a fact that someone would have
                to act
                > > > > on the physical plane to approve the initiations and
                physically
                > > > send
                > > > > out pink slips. No matter how you slice it, this person (or
                more
                > > > > likely, persons) is not the Living Eck Master, but rather,
                several
                > > > > paid employees.
                > > > >
                > > > > Some people argue that the true initiations are "inner," and
                > > > > therefore the outer initiations are not the true initiations.
                The
                > > > > fallacy in the logic of this argument is that Twitchell
                originally
                > > > > stated that the inner initiation comes before the outer, due
                to the
                > > > > principle of "as above, so below," which means that outer
                events
                > > > > occur on the inner first, manifesting outwardly later. Klemp
                has
                > > > > attempted to confuse people by reversing this, claiming that
                it
                > > > takes
                > > > > time to grow into an initiation. But here Klemp contradicts
                > > > himself,
                > > > > since Klemp has expressly stated in writing that he
                personally
                > > > > approves the outer initiations by reading the inner soul
                records.
                > > > > This means the person receiving the outer initiation would
                have,
                > > > > according to Klemp's own written statements, already have the
                inner
                > > > > preparation, and thus would have received the inner
                initiation. It
                > > > is
                > > > > absurd to conclude that Klemp, in taking time to read the
                soul
                > > > > records to approve the outer initiation, would not include as
                part
                > > > of
                > > > > that time and effort the giving of the actual inner
                initiation, if
                > > > > after having read the soul records it was determined the
                chela was
                > > > > eligible for the initiation. Thus, the logic that the inner
                and
                > > > outer
                > > > > initiations are separate and not inextricably linked is
                denied in
                > > > > statements by Eckankar's only presumed authority, the Living
                Eck
                > > > > Master, Harold Klemp. And the obvious fact is, Klemp would
                not have
                > > > > the requisite time that he has stated is necessary to read so
                many
                > > > > soul records each day of his life. He has been caught up in
                his own
                > > > > contradictory statements and revealed himself to be a fraud.
                > > > >
                > > > > Thus, the initiations are entirely bogus. They represent
                nothing
                > > > more
                > > > > than organizational status. Observe the behavior of the
                online
                > > > > clergy. These are not enlightened beings. They are ordinary
                people
                > > > > caught up in the throes of everyday life, like most people
                are in
                > > > the
                > > > > rest of the world.
                > > > >
                > > > > Kent
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • prometheus_973
                Hi Ingrid, The ECK Initiations along with all of the other inner teachings and dogma of ECKANKAR are just PRETEND! Klemp has stated: Acting AS IF is a
                Message 7 of 11 , Feb 7, 2007
                  Hi Ingrid,
                  The ECK Initiations along with all of the other "inner"
                  teachings and dogma of ECKANKAR are just PRETEND!
                  Klemp has stated: "Acting 'AS IF' is a principle of ECK.
                  You establish a goal, then ACT AS IF the WISH is fulfilled
                  and the DREAM completed. In this way you CREATE your
                  OWN world." H.K. The Dream Master, pg. 81 [My caps]

                  It's no wonder that these gullible and spiritually immature
                  ECKists continue to accept an authority figure over them.
                  At the same time they fear taking on responsibility for their
                  own thoughts, words. feelings, actions, and reactions. They
                  need a fake Mahanta because they are weak and immature
                  Souls.

                  Prometheus

                  ctecvie wrote:
                  >
                  I know an ex-eckist who found David Lane and left the teachings
                  silently. He began to translate David Lane's book into German and
                  then the pink slip for his next initiation arrived.
                  >
                  Perhaps the all-knowing mahanta thought this accomplishment
                  was worth a reward! LOL!
                  >
                  Ingrid
                  >
                  prometheus wrote:
                  > >
                  The arbitrary way in which the ECK Initiations come to
                  ECKists proves that there is no inner communication
                  with their Master. There is no equality of consciousness
                  within the same Circle of Initiation! It's not even close!
                  Therefore, how can there be any truth in the words:
                  'I am always with you.' It's a lie that innocent people
                  have willingly bought into because they want and need
                  to believe in the lie of religion. And, the Eckankar religion
                  may be different and unique and give more answers when
                  compared to most other religions, but that doesn't mean
                  it's all true. Except for the LEM/Mahanta, the Initiations,
                  and the ECK Masters much of what Twitchell "compiled"
                  has some merit for Soul's individual investigation/journey.
                  > >
                  Prometheus
                  > >
                  > >
                  pretujari wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > >
                  Hello,
                  This reminds me of two scenerios regarding the initiations. One was
                  to do with a couple. The husband was really perplexed when the pink
                  slip came for him and the wife for their 4th. According to the man,
                  he never understood why his wife also received the 4th because she
                  was quarrellsome, never practiced her spiritual exercises, nor had
                  much time for Eckankar.He told me this when I explained the truth
                  about the eckankar initiations to him.
                  > > >
                  The other was an elderly woman who was very close to me.
                  She confided in me amidst tears that she had stayed in the
                  3rd initiation for years. As she cried while narrating this, she
                  wondered why and what she had done, since others who came
                  after her had bypassed her in initiations. Unfortunately, she
                  did not live long enough to know the truth. Am sure all has been
                  made clear to her on the other side.
                  Pretujari.
                  **********************************************************************

                  > > >
                  Pretujari, this story about the elderly woman demonstrates why
                  eckankar is not a benign cult! It is really sad that she was so
                  tormented about making those initiation levels up until her time
                  of passing! Shame on Klemp and his fraudulent org for sucking
                  the life out of innocent Souls who just want to achieve a sincere
                  connection with God! I feel both sad and angry to think of this
                  woman's sorrow--it's not a good way to live one's life feeling
                  passed over like that!
                  > > >
                  Klemp will ultimately pay for his lies and deceptions! He talks
                  about fear so I have to wonder if he doesn't suffer from real fears
                  in knowing that he has been committing these great spiritual
                  crimes?
                  > > >
                  Eckankar is not harmless in that it does damage Souls.
                  > > >
                  Mish


                  **************************************************************

                  tianyue wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  Ex-Initiator's Guide to Initiations
                  > > > > >
                  [I've posted an earlier version of this before, and with the
                  discussion of secret words that has been ongoing on another group,
                  I thought this might be a good time to repost this. I've revised
                  this, and added rebuttles to comments Eckists have made to the
                  original.-
                  K.A.]
                  > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  When I received the sixth initiation, I had essentially
                  already decided to leave Eckankar. I was still hanging on out
                  of some slight uncertainty, and also had decided to maintain
                  my membership due to the fact that my partner, Lisa, still
                  remained loyal to Eckankar. A year or two had passed while
                  I was in this state of serious doubt and skepticism, when the
                  pink slip for the sixth initiation came. I was surprised to say
                  the least. Yet I wasn't too surprised. This confirmed what I
                  already suspected: Initiations are not overseen or approved
                  by a Mahanta or some omniscient being, but by a computer,
                  with the assistance of initiate reports, and recommendations
                  by the local Resa and other local High Initiates. I remained in
                  Eckankar for years after this, until the day my mate felt as I did,
                  and we both resigned.

                  Lest there are those in Eckankar who don't yet know this,
                  lists are periodically sent out with names generated by a
                  computer to the state Resa (Regional Eck Spiritual Aid),
                  who confers with local High Initiates to either recommend
                  or not, an initiation (Klemp himself wrote of the computers
                  producing the initiation lists a while back as I recall).
                  [snip]
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