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Re: Ex-Initiator's Guide to Eck Initiations

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  • prometheus_973
    Hi Kent, I agree, the ECK Initiations are bogus. It is strange how Klemp has stated that a Chela grows into their initiation years after receiving it on the
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 2, 2007
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      Hi Kent,
      I agree, the ECK Initiations are bogus. It is strange how
      Klemp has stated that a Chela grows "into" their initiation
      years after receiving it on the outer. Therefore, a 5th wouldn't
      know that they had completed the tests, lessons, etc. of the
      5th until they received the 6th! Yet, in the Masters 4 Discourse,
      Lesson 2 on The Ninth Initiation, HK states that the Initiation
      is NOT completed until the third and final stage of confirmation
      is given on the outer. Thus, there are two "inner" stages and
      one "outer" stage for the 9th initiation.

      Maybe HK's other explanation came about when Gross was
      kicked to the curb, but sent out 500 Higher Initiations before
      he left! HK said these chelas weren't supposed to get promoted,
      but would work with them (on the inner) to bring them up to
      speed or up to that level of delusion. Still, it doesn't explain
      why people skipped initiations or only served a few months in
      one before receiving the next one! Klemp never addressed that
      issue since he too benefited and experienced that same thing via
      DG.

      One would think that one explanation should apply to all, but
      Klemp changes things as he sees fit because he can! It's a
      tough job to keep his and Paul's nonsense sorted out. Then
      again, keeping ECKists off balance and confused is part
      of the plan. If people can accept all sorts and all amounts of
      crap via blind faith and imagination then why be concerned?
      Besides, ECKists see it as a test... or a paradox... or as just
      Lower World Mental expressions that are limiting. The "inner"
      is the only true reality for them... right? I always found it
      interesting how PT would give people a heads up to truth
      on occasion. It's like a thief telling you not to forget to lock
      your doors. Now wouldn't you assume a guy like that was
      to be trusted?

      Here's a supposed quote from Shamus-i-Tabriz from a
      clela's dream: "Little do we realize how our expectations
      shape our experiences and reality." [pg. 88, TWEM]

      Now, if only ECKists could see the truth of that statement!

      Prometheus



      Kent wrote:
      >
      > Ex-Initiator's Guide to Initiations
      >
      > [I've posted an earlier version of this before, and with the
      > discussion of secret words that has been ongoing on another group, I
      > thought this might be a good time to repost this. I've revised this,
      > and added rebuttles to comments Eckists have made to the original.-
      > K.A.]
      >
      >
      >
      > When I received the sixth initiation, I had essentially already
      > decided to leave Eckankar. I was still hanging on out of some slight
      > uncertainty, and also had decided to maintain my membership due to
      > the fact that my partner, Lisa, still remained loyal to Eckankar. A
      > year or two had passed while I was in this state of serious doubt and
      > skepticism, when the pink slip for the sixth initiation came. I was
      > surprised to say the least. Yet I wasn't too surprised. This
      > confirmed what I already suspected: Initiations are not overseen or
      > approved by a Mahanta or some omniscient being, but by a computer,
      > with the assistance of initiate reports, and recommendations by the
      > local Resa and other local High Initiates. I remained in Eckankar for
      > years after this, until the day my mate felt as I did, and we both
      > resigned.
      >
      > Lest there are those in Eckankar who don't yet know this, lists are
      > periodically sent out with names generated by a computer to the state
      > Resa (Regional Eck Spiritual Aid), who confers with local High
      > Initiates to either recommend or not, an initiation (Klemp himself
      > wrote of the computers producing the initiation lists a while back as
      > I recall). Around the time I left Eckankar, most Eckists were
      > automatically placed on the list every four or five years or so. If
      > for some reason an Eckist was denied, they would usually show up
      > again on the next year's list. Local H.I.'s in my area (including
      > myself) would routinely talk over the names on the list via the
      > telephone, and give their recommendations to the Resa according to
      > each chela's loyalty and degree of outer service to the org. Those
      > who were especially "troublesome" could be denied the initiation. The
      > Resa emphasized loyalty as the most important trait. The results from
      > the Resa are sent back to Minneapolis HQ where assistants appointed
      > by Harold approve or deny the initiation based on such things as the
      > time served as a dues paying member, the Resa recommendations, and
      > initiate reports. Some, including myself, have observed that initiate
      > reports (especially those which are positive or are written in praise
      > of the org) definitely can play a role in the initiation approval
      > process.
      >
      > Despite this, few people were denied an initiation if they were on
      > the list. Eckankar has a very liberal policy toward initiations. I
      > noticed that those who followed the disciplines well fared no better
      > or worse than those who didn't. I noticed people who smoked, drank or
      > never did their exercises stood just as great a chance of receiving
      > the fifth initiation as anyone <G>. More than anything, the
      > initiations were awarded based on time as a member. The rate at which
      > initiations were received could be accelerated or delayed based on
      > the chelas relationship with local H.I.'s and, especially, the state
      > Resa, who has a great deal of influence in such matters.
      >
      > And one other thing is clear: Those who do not substantially conform
      > to the expectations of the group are the ones most likely to be
      > denied an initiation. Despite this, the H.I.'s or Resa's in different
      > areas may vary in their tolerance levels, which accounts for the
      > stories heard about individuals who never received initiations in one
      > locale suddenly begin to receive them after moving to another area.
      > Also, I've witnessed initiations being approved after three or four
      > H.I's gave their unsolicited recommendations to Spiritual Services on
      > behalf of certain chelas who were thought of as exceptionally
      > deserving.
      >
      > I once had a friend who was extremely devoted to Eckankar, who had
      > lived in a remote area during most of her time as a member, and
      > didn't realize Eckankar's policy that time served as a dues paying
      > member counted toward initiation. As a result, she didn't receive
      > initiations for years do to the fact that she kept forgetting to
      > renew her membership, thinking such things to be of the material
      > worlds! She had no idea such trivialities mattered to the omniscient
      > Mahanta! This woman had a life membership (at one time you could pay
      > a large one time fee, $2,000, for a membership for life) but was
      > still required to notify Eckankar of her intent to renew annually,
      > though no additional fee was required. She didn't think such
      > formalities were all that important, and as a result, due to a less
      > than exemplary membership record, received no initiations beyond the
      > second, despite years of devotion to Eckankar. One often may hear
      > Eckists parroting that such outer initiations matter little, yet
      > privately, most Eckists seem to feel very strongly about the
      > initiations they are awarded.
      >
      > This isn't spoken of very much out in the open in Eckankar, but
      > people such as the woman in the example can become quite
      > disillusioned and depressed over not keeping up with their peers,
      > feeling left behind, unwanted, and forgotten by the Mahanta. They see
      > others who are seemingly less deserving receiving initiations,
      > whereas they, despite being very devoted to Eckankar and the
      > associated disciplines, seem to fall hopelessly behind. Due to
      > Eckankar's policy that one not ever request initiations, many suffer
      > in silence, sensing justifiably that something isn't quite right, yet
      > fear to even ask about the possibility of an error. In many cases,
      > even when they do ask, they face a stony silence from the org, or are
      > told they are being "tested" spiritually, when all that is needed is
      > a quick check of the record. This is one of the way's such a system
      > can inflict undue pain upon its members, and is one reason I am
      > taking the time to write about this in detail.
      >
      > Think about the numbers involved in the initiation approval process.
      > If there are, as claimed, 50,000 members in the org, and each is
      > considered for an initiation every five years or so, then that would
      > average 10,000 per year, or 833 per month, or about 40 per day
      > (excluding weekends), or about one initiation to be approved every 10
      > to 15 minutes in an average eight hour day. Klemp would have to work
      > full time on initiations every day for the rest of his life to spend
      > 10 to 15 minutes every five years on the "individual" member (do the
      > math and see for yourself). Klemp has said that he checks the inner
      > akashic and soul records to make such a choice. Remember that this
      > would have to be done to merely consider a person for initiation,
      > that is, to give each chela the individual attention and
      > consideration that is due, whether or not the chela is actually
      > approved for initiation.
      >
      > Klemp would have to live out of the body most of his life to
      > accomplish such a feat. He would have no time for seminars, writing
      > his constant supply of books, writing his speeches, eating, drinking,
      > sleeping, going to meetings, running the corporation, etc. For those
      > who argue that such reading of soul records does not take time,
      > consider that Klemp has discontinued private requests for
      > consultations to do soul readings because, according to him, it takes
      > hours to accomplish an accurate reading of the soul records of just
      > one person. Thus, a mere fifteen minutes would not be sufficient to
      > approve an initiation, even if he did spend all day, every day of his
      > life approving initiations. Think about this!
      >
      > From this it can be deduced that Klemp has, for the most part,
      > nothing to do with the initiations, other than, perhaps, performing a
      > perfunctory blessing of them in the eckankar offices to fool the
      > membership. He simply doesn't have the time.
      >
      > Remember this key point: It's a fact that someone would have to act
      > on the physical plane to approve the initiations and physically send
      > out pink slips. No matter how you slice it, this person (or more
      > likely, persons) is not the Living Eck Master, but rather, several
      > paid employees.
      >
      > Some people argue that the true initiations are "inner," and
      > therefore the outer initiations are not the true initiations. The
      > fallacy in the logic of this argument is that Twitchell originally
      > stated that the inner initiation comes before the outer, due to the
      > principle of "as above, so below," which means that outer events
      > occur on the inner first, manifesting outwardly later. Klemp has
      > attempted to confuse people by reversing this, claiming that it takes
      > time to grow into an initiation. But here Klemp contradicts himself,
      > since Klemp has expressly stated in writing that he personally
      > approves the outer initiations by reading the inner soul records.
      > This means the person receiving the outer initiation would have,
      > according to Klemp's own written statements, already have the inner
      > preparation, and thus would have received the inner initiation. It is
      > absurd to conclude that Klemp, in taking time to read the soul
      > records to approve the outer initiation, would not include as part of
      > that time and effort the giving of the actual inner initiation, if
      > after having read the soul records it was determined the chela was
      > eligible for the initiation. Thus, the logic that the inner and outer
      > initiations are separate and not inextricably linked is denied in
      > statements by Eckankar's only presumed authority, the Living Eck
      > Master, Harold Klemp. And the obvious fact is, Klemp would not have
      > the requisite time that he has stated is necessary to read so many
      > soul records each day of his life. He has been caught up in his own
      > contradictory statements and revealed himself to be a fraud.
      >
      > Thus, the initiations are entirely bogus. They represent nothing more
      > than organizational status. Observe the behavior of the online
      > clergy. These are not enlightened beings. They are ordinary people
      > caught up in the throes of everyday life, like most people are in the
      > rest of the world.
      >
      > Kent
      >
    • prometheus_973
      Hi All, I thought that I d bring this back for more comments. I noticed that some chelas who were put on the RESA s sh_t list were there for up to three years
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 3, 2007
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        Hi All,
        I thought that I'd bring this back for more comments.

        I noticed that some chelas who were put on the RESA's
        sh_t list were there for up to three years and, thus, had
        their initiations delayed for three years. Some of these
        RESAs are really into the three thing except, of course,
        when doing their "five year (business) plan!" The ESC
        just follows the lead of the RESAs and the RESAs follow
        the gossip and recommendations of their friends who
        are H.I.s.

        Also, at one time a life membership was $500, but this
        was early on and for just a brief time period when quick
        money was needed. However, just before DG was booted
        Darwin reinstated the lifetime membership donation
        for $1,000! DG took the money and ran while leaving HK
        holding the bag. However, I'm told, that HK still requires
        all of the lifetime members to renew each year or lose their
        lifetime memberships! I haven't heard about the $2,000
        lifetime memberships that Kent spoke of. Is that what
        they cost now? What a scam! Especially, if one has to still
        renew it each year or lose it!

        Anyway, it doesn't seem very "spiritual" does it? It's typical
        for HK to preach about one thing and do the opposite!

        I found these quotes in the Shariyat 2, Ch.2, Books 1&2:

        "There will be those who call themselves ECK Masters and
        disguise themselves under the robes of ECK, but they are
        prophets with false faces who are lying to take in the
        ECKists... in search of the material things of life: money,
        health, and physical happiness."

        So, it seems that Paul was, basically, and maybe unknowingly
        tying together some random insights to the future of ECKANKAR
        and to his succesors! The irony is that Paul was more of the
        Conman than the Godman and was, also, speaking of himself
        and his own limitations.

        Yes, the seeker will find "the pseudogurus scattered throughout
        the world... he will find false prophets and the so-called teachers
        ... the paradox is that pure consciousness is simultaneously both
        positive and negative... the light is darkness and darkness is light
        and sound... both are the qualities of the ECK."

        With this kind of circular logic I can see how Twitchell was able
        to justify his scam! Just make yourself into a indisputable "God"
        or authority figure (LEM/Mahanta) and recreate history and reality
        to suit your needs while attracting a following of needy, gullible,
        trusting, spiritual seekers who have always felt like or have been
        misfits in society, in orthodox religion, or within their own families.
        Sell spiritual liberation while creating an admirable vocation for
        yourself as Top Dog or as Top God!

        However, I must say that timing is everything. Perhaps this is also
        why ECKANKAR membership numbers are dropping, and why there
        is such a push to get the ECK Youth more brainwashed and to get
        the Vahana (Missionary) volunteer army into the field of action. HK
        is doing a "sell" of ECKANKAR and of himself that definitely goes
        beyond just getting the normal word of mouth "message" out.

        Prometheus




        prometheus wrote:
        >
        Hi Kent,
        I agree, the ECK Initiations are bogus. It is strange how
        Klemp has stated that a Chela grows "into" their initiation
        years after receiving it on the outer. Therefore, a 5th wouldn't
        know that they had completed the tests, lessons, etc. of the
        5th until they received the 6th! Yet, in the Masters 4 Discourse,
        Lesson 2 on The Ninth Initiation, HK states that the Initiation
        is NOT completed until the third and final stage of confirmation
        is given on the outer. Thus, there are two "inner" stages and
        one "outer" stage for the 9th initiation.
        >
        Maybe HK's other explanation came about when Gross was
        kicked to the curb, but sent out 500 Higher Initiations before
        he left! HK said these chelas weren't supposed to get promoted,
        but would work with them (on the inner) to bring them up to
        speed or up to that level of delusion. Still, it doesn't explain
        why people skipped initiations or only served a few months in
        one before receiving the next one! Klemp never addressed that
        issue since he too benefited and experienced that same thing via
        DG.
        >
        One would think that one explanation should apply to all, but
        Klemp changes things as he sees fit because he can! It's a
        tough job to keep his and Paul's nonsense sorted out. Then
        again, keeping ECKists off balance and confused is part
        of the plan. If people can accept all sorts and all amounts of
        crap via blind faith and imagination then why be concerned?
        Besides, ECKists see it as a test... or a paradox... or as just
        Lower World Mental expressions that are limiting. The "inner"
        is the only true reality for them... right? I always found it
        interesting how PT would give people a heads up to truth
        on occasion. It's like a thief telling you not to forget to lock
        your doors. Now wouldn't you assume a guy like that was
        to be trusted?
        >
        Here's a supposed quote from Shamus-i-Tabriz from a
        chela's dream: "Little do we realize how our expectations
        shape our experiences and reality." [pg. 88, TWEM]
        >
        Now, if only ECKists could see the truth of that statement!
        >
        Prometheus
        >
        Kent wrote:
        > >
        Ex-Initiator's Guide to Initiations
        > >
        [I've posted an earlier version of this before, and with the
        discussion of secret words that has been ongoing on another group, I
        thought this might be a good time to repost this. I've revised this,
        and added rebuttles to comments Eckists have made to the original.-
        K.A.]
        > >
        When I received the sixth initiation, I had essentially already
        decided to leave Eckankar. I was still hanging on out of some slight
        uncertainty, and also had decided to maintain my membership due to
        the fact that my partner, Lisa, still remained loyal to Eckankar. A
        year or two had passed while I was in this state of serious doubt and
        skepticism, when the pink slip for the sixth initiation came. I was
        surprised to say the least. Yet I wasn't too surprised. This
        confirmed what I already suspected: Initiations are not overseen or
        approved by a Mahanta or some omniscient being, but by a computer,
        with the assistance of initiate reports, and recommendations by the
        local Resa and other local High Initiates. I remained in Eckankar for
        years after this, until the day my mate felt as I did, and we both
        resigned.
        > >
        Lest there are those in Eckankar who don't yet know this, lists are
        periodically sent out with names generated by a computer to the state
        Resa (Regional Eck Spiritual Aid), who confers with local High
        Initiates to either recommend or not, an initiation (Klemp himself
        wrote of the computers producing the initiation lists a while back as
        I recall). Around the time I left Eckankar, most Eckists were
        automatically placed on the list every four or five years or so. If
        for some reason an Eckist was denied, they would usually show up
        again on the next year's list. Local H.I.'s in my area (including
        myself) would routinely talk over the names on the list via the
        telephone, and give their recommendations to the Resa according to
        each chela's loyalty and degree of outer service to the org. Those
        who were especially "troublesome" could be denied the initiation. The
        Resa emphasized loyalty as the most important trait. The results from
        the Resa are sent back to Minneapolis HQ where assistants appointed
        by Harold approve or deny the initiation based on such things as the
        time served as a dues paying member, the Resa recommendations, and
        initiate reports. Some, including myself, have observed that initiate
        reports (especially those which are positive or are written in praise
        of the org) definitely can play a role in the initiation approval
        process.
        > >
        Despite this, few people were denied an initiation if they were on
        the list. Eckankar has a very liberal policy toward initiations. I
        noticed that those who followed the disciplines well fared no better
        or worse than those who didn't. I noticed people who smoked, drank or
        never did their exercises stood just as great a chance of receiving
        the fifth initiation as anyone <G>. More than anything, the
        initiations were awarded based on time as a member. The rate at which
        initiations were received could be accelerated or delayed based on
        the chelas relationship with local H.I.'s and, especially, the state
        Resa, who has a great deal of influence in such matters.
        > >
        And one other thing is clear: Those who do not substantially conform
        to the expectations of the group are the ones most likely to be
        denied an initiation. Despite this, the H.I.'s or Resa's in different
        areas may vary in their tolerance levels, which accounts for the
        stories heard about individuals who never received initiations in one
        locale suddenly begin to receive them after moving to another area.
        Also, I've witnessed initiations being approved after three or four
        H.I's gave their unsolicited recommendations to Spiritual Services on
        behalf of certain chelas who were thought of as exceptionally
        deserving.
        > >
        I once had a friend who was extremely devoted to Eckankar, who had
        lived in a remote area during most of her time as a member, and
        didn't realize Eckankar's policy that time served as a dues paying
        member counted toward initiation. As a result, she didn't receive
        initiations for years do to the fact that she kept forgetting to
        renew her membership, thinking such things to be of the material
        worlds! She had no idea such trivialities mattered to the omniscient
        Mahanta! This woman had a life membership (at one time you could pay
        a large one time fee, $2,000, for a membership for life) but was
        still required to notify Eckankar of her intent to renew annually,
        though no additional fee was required. She didn't think such
        formalities were all that important, and as a result, due to a less
        than exemplary membership record, received no initiations beyond the
        second, despite years of devotion to Eckankar. One often may hear
        Eckists parroting that such outer initiations matter little, yet
        privately, most Eckists seem to feel very strongly about the
        initiations they are awarded.
        > >
        This isn't spoken of very much out in the open in Eckankar, but
        people such as the woman in the example can become quite
        disillusioned and depressed over not keeping up with their peers,
        feeling left behind, unwanted, and forgotten by the Mahanta. They see
        others who are seemingly less deserving receiving initiations,
        whereas they, despite being very devoted to Eckankar and the
        associated disciplines, seem to fall hopelessly behind. Due to
        Eckankar's policy that one not ever request initiations, many suffer
        in silence, sensing justifiably that something isn't quite right, yet
        fear to even ask about the possibility of an error. In many cases,
        even when they do ask, they face a stony silence from the org, or are
        told they are being "tested" spiritually, when all that is needed is
        a quick check of the record. This is one of the way's such a system
        can inflict undue pain upon its members, and is one reason I am
        taking the time to write about this in detail.
        > >
        Think about the numbers involved in the initiation approval process.
        If there are, as claimed, 50,000 members in the org, and each is
        considered for an initiation every five years or so, then that would
        average 10,000 per year, or 833 per month, or about 40 per day
        (excluding weekends), or about one initiation to be approved every 10
        to 15 minutes in an average eight hour day. Klemp would have to work
        full time on initiations every day for the rest of his life to spend
        10 to 15 minutes every five years on the "individual" member (do the
        math and see for yourself). Klemp has said that he checks the inner
        akashic and soul records to make such a choice. Remember that this
        would have to be done to merely consider a person for initiation,
        that is, to give each chela the individual attention and
        consideration that is due, whether or not the chela is actually
        approved for initiation.
        > >
        Klemp would have to live out of the body most of his life to
        accomplish such a feat. He would have no time for seminars, writing
        his constant supply of books, writing his speeches, eating, drinking,
        sleeping, going to meetings, running the corporation, etc. For those
        who argue that such reading of soul records does not take time,
        consider that Klemp has discontinued private requests for
        consultations to do soul readings because, according to him, it takes
        hours to accomplish an accurate reading of the soul records of just
        one person. Thus, a mere fifteen minutes would not be sufficient to
        approve an initiation, even if he did spend all day, every day of his
        life approving initiations. Think about this!
        > >
        From this it can be deduced that Klemp has, for the most part,
        nothing to do with the initiations, other than, perhaps, performing a
        perfunctory blessing of them in the eckankar offices to fool the
        membership. He simply doesn't have the time.
        > >
        Remember this key point: It's a fact that someone would have to act
        on the physical plane to approve the initiations and physically send
        out pink slips. No matter how you slice it, this person (or more
        likely, persons) is not the Living Eck Master, but rather, several
        paid employees.
        > >
        Some people argue that the true initiations are "inner," and
        therefore the outer initiations are not the true initiations. The
        fallacy in the logic of this argument is that Twitchell originally
        stated that the inner initiation comes before the outer, due to the
        principle of "as above, so below," which means that outer events
        occur on the inner first, manifesting outwardly later. Klemp has
        attempted to confuse people by reversing this, claiming that it takes
        time to grow into an initiation. But here Klemp contradicts himself,
        since Klemp has expressly stated in writing that he personally
        approves the outer initiations by reading the inner soul records.
        This means the person receiving the outer initiation would have,
        according to Klemp's own written statements, already have the inner
        preparation, and thus would have received the inner initiation. It is
        absurd to conclude that Klemp, in taking time to read the soul
        records to approve the outer initiation, would not include as part of
        that time and effort the giving of the actual inner initiation, if
        after having read the soul records it was determined the chela was
        eligible for the initiation. Thus, the logic that the inner and outer
        initiations are separate and not inextricably linked is denied in
        statements by Eckankar's only presumed authority, the Living Eck
        Master, Harold Klemp. And the obvious fact is, Klemp would not have
        the requisite time that he has stated is necessary to read so many
        soul records each day of his life. He has been caught up in his own
        contradictory statements and revealed himself to be a fraud.
        > >
        Thus, the initiations are entirely bogus. They represent nothing more
        than organizational status. Observe the behavior of the online
        clergy. These are not enlightened beings. They are ordinary people
        caught up in the throes of everyday life, like most people are in the
        rest of the world.
        > >
        Kent
      • tomleafeater
        The fee was indeed, 1,000 dollars (rather than 2,000), confirmed by none other than than my partner, Lisa, who actually had a life time membership. I d thought
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 4, 2007
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          The fee was indeed, 1,000 dollars (rather than 2,000), confirmed
          by none other than than my partner, Lisa, who actually had a life
          time membership. I'd thought she told me she paid more than
          that.

          And of course, none of this changes the essential point I had
          made in the story, not having been the central point I was
          making. It wasn't the money that was at issue, though 1,000 is a
          lot of money to a teenager (how she raised the money is a story
          in itself), but rather, the issue was what her experience revealed
          to her about the initiation approval process and what it reveals
          about what the mahanta knows or doesn't know in approving
          initiations.

          Lisa was very young (late teens I think) and living in a remote
          area when she joined eckankar. There were no other members
          in her area. She bought a lifetime membership thinking that was
          probably what others were doing elsewhere. She wasn't clear on
          eckankar policy at her young age, and in the area in which she
          lived she was the only eckist, with no others to confer with, and
          so fell behind in registered years without truly understanding the
          consequences, and later, her friends in eckankar were all much
          farther ahead in initiations than she was, despite her many years
          of doing spiritual exercises and reading discourses.

          And of course, the varying positions of initiation status didn't
          reflect the indvidual "spiritual development " or years of true
          involvment with eckankar, but rather it reflected the computer
          print out of registered years of membership, despite the fact that
          her actual years of having a life membership were far more than
          others.

          Kent


          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
          "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi All,
          > I thought that I'd bring this back for more comments.
          >
          > I noticed that some chelas who were put on the RESA's
          > sh_t list were there for up to three years and, thus, had
          > their initiations delayed for three years. Some of these
          > RESAs are really into the three thing except, of course,
          > when doing their "five year (business) plan!" The ESC
          > just follows the lead of the RESAs and the RESAs follow
          > the gossip and recommendations of their friends who
          > are H.I.s.
          >
          > Also, at one time a life membership was $500, but this
          > was early on and for just a brief time period when quick
          > money was needed. However, just before DG was booted
          > Darwin reinstated the lifetime membership donation
          > for $1,000! DG took the money and ran while leaving HK
          > holding the bag. However, I'm told, that HK still requires
          > all of the lifetime members to renew each year or lose their
          > lifetime memberships! I haven't heard about the $2,000
          > lifetime memberships that Kent spoke of. Is that what
          > they cost now? What a scam! Especially, if one has to still
          > renew it each year or lose it!
          >
          > Anyway, it doesn't seem very "spiritual" does it? It's typical
          > for HK to preach about one thing and do the opposite!
          >
          > I found these quotes in the Shariyat 2, Ch.2, Books 1&2:
          >
          > "There will be those who call themselves ECK Masters and
          > disguise themselves under the robes of ECK, but they are
          > prophets with false faces who are lying to take in the
          > ECKists... in search of the material things of life: money,
          > health, and physical happiness."
          >
          > So, it seems that Paul was, basically, and maybe unknowingly
          > tying together some random insights to the future of
          ECKANKAR
          > and to his succesors! The irony is that Paul was more of the
          > Conman than the Godman and was, also, speaking of himself
          > and his own limitations.
          >
          > Yes, the seeker will find "the pseudogurus scattered
          throughout
          > the world... he will find false prophets and the so-called
          teachers
          > ... the paradox is that pure consciousness is simultaneously
          both
          > positive and negative... the light is darkness and darkness is
          light
          > and sound... both are the qualities of the ECK."
          >
          > With this kind of circular logic I can see how Twitchell was able
          > to justify his scam! Just make yourself into a indisputable
          "God"
          > or authority figure (LEM/Mahanta) and recreate history and
          reality
          > to suit your needs while attracting a following of needy, gullible,
          > trusting, spiritual seekers who have always felt like or have
          been
          > misfits in society, in orthodox religion, or within their own
          families.
          > Sell spiritual liberation while creating an admirable vocation for
          > yourself as Top Dog or as Top God!
          >
          > However, I must say that timing is everything. Perhaps this is
          also
          > why ECKANKAR membership numbers are dropping, and why
          there
          > is such a push to get the ECK Youth more brainwashed and to
          get
          > the Vahana (Missionary) volunteer army into the field of action.
          HK
          > is doing a "sell" of ECKANKAR and of himself that definitely
          goes
          > beyond just getting the normal word of mouth "message" out.
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > prometheus wrote:
          > >
          > Hi Kent,
          > I agree, the ECK Initiations are bogus. It is strange how
          > Klemp has stated that a Chela grows "into" their initiation
          > years after receiving it on the outer. Therefore, a 5th wouldn't
          > know that they had completed the tests, lessons, etc. of the
          > 5th until they received the 6th! Yet, in the Masters 4 Discourse,
          > Lesson 2 on The Ninth Initiation, HK states that the Initiation
          > is NOT completed until the third and final stage of confirmation
          > is given on the outer. Thus, there are two "inner" stages and
          > one "outer" stage for the 9th initiation.
          > >
          > Maybe HK's other explanation came about when Gross was
          > kicked to the curb, but sent out 500 Higher Initiations before
          > he left! HK said these chelas weren't supposed to get
          promoted,
          > but would work with them (on the inner) to bring them up to
          > speed or up to that level of delusion. Still, it doesn't explain
          > why people skipped initiations or only served a few months in
          > one before receiving the next one! Klemp never addressed that
          > issue since he too benefited and experienced that same thing
          via
          > DG.
          > >
          > One would think that one explanation should apply to all, but
          > Klemp changes things as he sees fit because he can! It's a
          > tough job to keep his and Paul's nonsense sorted out. Then
          > again, keeping ECKists off balance and confused is part
          > of the plan. If people can accept all sorts and all amounts of
          > crap via blind faith and imagination then why be concerned?
          > Besides, ECKists see it as a test... or a paradox... or as just
          > Lower World Mental expressions that are limiting. The "inner"
          > is the only true reality for them... right? I always found it
          > interesting how PT would give people a heads up to truth
          > on occasion. It's like a thief telling you not to forget to lock
          > your doors. Now wouldn't you assume a guy like that was
          > to be trusted?
          > >
          > Here's a supposed quote from Shamus-i-Tabriz from a
          > chela's dream: "Little do we realize how our expectations
          > shape our experiences and reality." [pg. 88, TWEM]
          > >
          > Now, if only ECKists could see the truth of that statement!
          > >
          > Prometheus
          > >
          > Kent wrote:
          > > >
          > Ex-Initiator's Guide to Initiations
          > > >
          > [I've posted an earlier version of this before, and with the
          > discussion of secret words that has been ongoing on another
          group, I
          > thought this might be a good time to repost this. I've revised
          this,
          > and added rebuttles to comments Eckists have made to the
          original.-
          > K.A.]
          > > >
          > When I received the sixth initiation, I had essentially already
          > decided to leave Eckankar. I was still hanging on out of some
          slight
          > uncertainty, and also had decided to maintain my membership
          due to
          > the fact that my partner, Lisa, still remained loyal to Eckankar. A
          > year or two had passed while I was in this state of serious
          doubt and
          > skepticism, when the pink slip for the sixth initiation came. I
          was
          > surprised to say the least. Yet I wasn't too surprised. This
          > confirmed what I already suspected: Initiations are not
          overseen or
          > approved by a Mahanta or some omniscient being, but by a
          computer,
          > with the assistance of initiate reports, and recommendations
          by the
          > local Resa and other local High Initiates. I remained in
          Eckankar for
          > years after this, until the day my mate felt as I did, and we both
          > resigned.
          > > >
          > Lest there are those in Eckankar who don't yet know this, lists
          are
          > periodically sent out with names generated by a computer to
          the state
          > Resa (Regional Eck Spiritual Aid), who confers with local High
          > Initiates to either recommend or not, an initiation (Klemp
          himself
          > wrote of the computers producing the initiation lists a while
          back as
          > I recall). Around the time I left Eckankar, most Eckists were
          > automatically placed on the list every four or five years or so. If
          > for some reason an Eckist was denied, they would usually
          show up
          > again on the next year's list. Local H.I.'s in my area (including
          > myself) would routinely talk over the names on the list via the
          > telephone, and give their recommendations to the Resa
          according to
          > each chela's loyalty and degree of outer service to the org.
          Those
          > who were especially "troublesome" could be denied the
          initiation. The
          > Resa emphasized loyalty as the most important trait. The
          results from
          > the Resa are sent back to Minneapolis HQ where assistants
          appointed
          > by Harold approve or deny the initiation based on such things
          as the
          > time served as a dues paying member, the Resa
          recommendations, and
          > initiate reports. Some, including myself, have observed that
          initiate
          > reports (especially those which are positive or are written in
          praise
          > of the org) definitely can play a role in the initiation approval
          > process.
          > > >
          > Despite this, few people were denied an initiation if they were
          on
          > the list. Eckankar has a very liberal policy toward initiations. I
          > noticed that those who followed the disciplines well fared no
          better
          > or worse than those who didn't. I noticed people who smoked,
          drank or
          > never did their exercises stood just as great a chance of
          receiving
          > the fifth initiation as anyone <G>. More than anything, the
          > initiations were awarded based on time as a member. The
          rate at which
          > initiations were received could be accelerated or delayed
          based on
          > the chelas relationship with local H.I.'s and, especially, the
          state
          > Resa, who has a great deal of influence in such matters.
          > > >
          > And one other thing is clear: Those who do not substantially
          conform
          > to the expectations of the group are the ones most likely to be
          > denied an initiation. Despite this, the H.I.'s or Resa's in
          different
          > areas may vary in their tolerance levels, which accounts for the
          > stories heard about individuals who never received initiations
          in one
          > locale suddenly begin to receive them after moving to another
          area.
          > Also, I've witnessed initiations being approved after three or
          four
          > H.I's gave their unsolicited recommendations to Spiritual
          Services on
          > behalf of certain chelas who were thought of as exceptionally
          > deserving.
          > > >
          > I once had a friend who was extremely devoted to Eckankar,
          who had
          > lived in a remote area during most of her time as a member,
          and
          > didn't realize Eckankar's policy that time served as a dues
          paying
          > member counted toward initiation. As a result, she didn't
          receive
          > initiations for years do to the fact that she kept forgetting to
          > renew her membership, thinking such things to be of the
          material
          > worlds! She had no idea such trivialities mattered to the
          omniscient
          > Mahanta! This woman had a life membership (at one time you
          could pay
          > a large one time fee, $2,000, for a membership for life) but was
          > still required to notify Eckankar of her intent to renew annually,
          > though no additional fee was required. She didn't think such
          > formalities were all that important, and as a result, due to a
          less
          > than exemplary membership record, received no initiations
          beyond the
          > second, despite years of devotion to Eckankar. One often may
          hear
          > Eckists parroting that such outer initiations matter little, yet
          > privately, most Eckists seem to feel very strongly about the
          > initiations they are awarded.
          > > >
          > This isn't spoken of very much out in the open in Eckankar, but
          > people such as the woman in the example can become quite
          > disillusioned and depressed over not keeping up with their
          peers,
          > feeling left behind, unwanted, and forgotten by the Mahanta.
          They see
          > others who are seemingly less deserving receiving initiations,
          > whereas they, despite being very devoted to Eckankar and the
          > associated disciplines, seem to fall hopelessly behind. Due to
          > Eckankar's policy that one not ever request initiations, many
          suffer
          > in silence, sensing justifiably that something isn't quite right,
          yet
          > fear to even ask about the possibility of an error. In many
          cases,
          > even when they do ask, they face a stony silence from the org,
          or are
          > told they are being "tested" spiritually, when all that is needed
          is
          > a quick check of the record. This is one of the way's such a
          system
          > can inflict undue pain upon its members, and is one reason I
          am
          > taking the time to write about this in detail.
          > > >
          > Think about the numbers involved in the initiation approval
          process.
          > If there are, as claimed, 50,000 members in the org, and each
          is
          > considered for an initiation every five years or so, then that
          would
          > average 10,000 per year, or 833 per month, or about 40 per day
          > (excluding weekends), or about one initiation to be approved
          every 10
          > to 15 minutes in an average eight hour day. Klemp would have
          to work
          > full time on initiations every day for the rest of his life to spend
          > 10 to 15 minutes every five years on the "individual" member
          (do the
          > math and see for yourself). Klemp has said that he checks the
          inner
          > akashic and soul records to make such a choice. Remember
          that this
          > would have to be done to merely consider a person for
          initiation,
          > that is, to give each chela the individual attention and
          > consideration that is due, whether or not the chela is actually
          > approved for initiation.
          > > >
          > Klemp would have to live out of the body most of his life to
          > accomplish such a feat. He would have no time for seminars,
          writing
          > his constant supply of books, writing his speeches, eating,
          drinking,
          > sleeping, going to meetings, running the corporation, etc. For
          those
          > who argue that such reading of soul records does not take
          time,
          > consider that Klemp has discontinued private requests for
          > consultations to do soul readings because, according to him, it
          takes
          > hours to accomplish an accurate reading of the soul records of
          just
          > one person. Thus, a mere fifteen minutes would not be
          sufficient to
          > approve an initiation, even if he did spend all day, every day of
          his
          > life approving initiations. Think about this!
          > > >
          > From this it can be deduced that Klemp has, for the most part,
          > nothing to do with the initiations, other than, perhaps,
          performing a
          > perfunctory blessing of them in the eckankar offices to fool the
          > membership. He simply doesn't have the time.
          > > >
          > Remember this key point: It's a fact that someone would have
          to act
          > on the physical plane to approve the initiations and physically
          send
          > out pink slips. No matter how you slice it, this person (or more
          > likely, persons) is not the Living Eck Master, but rather, several
          > paid employees.
          > > >
          > Some people argue that the true initiations are "inner," and
          > therefore the outer initiations are not the true initiations. The
          > fallacy in the logic of this argument is that Twitchell originally
          > stated that the inner initiation comes before the outer, due to
          the
          > principle of "as above, so below," which means that outer
          events
          > occur on the inner first, manifesting outwardly later. Klemp has
          > attempted to confuse people by reversing this, claiming that it
          takes
          > time to grow into an initiation. But here Klemp contradicts
          himself,
          > since Klemp has expressly stated in writing that he personally
          > approves the outer initiations by reading the inner soul
          records.
          > This means the person receiving the outer initiation would
          have,
          > according to Klemp's own written statements, already have the
          inner
          > preparation, and thus would have received the inner initiation. It
          is
          > absurd to conclude that Klemp, in taking time to read the soul
          > records to approve the outer initiation, would not include as
          part of
          > that time and effort the giving of the actual inner initiation, if
          > after having read the soul records it was determined the chela
          was
          > eligible for the initiation. Thus, the logic that the inner and outer
          > initiations are separate and not inextricably linked is denied in
          > statements by Eckankar's only presumed authority, the Living
          Eck
          > Master, Harold Klemp. And the obvious fact is, Klemp would
          not have
          > the requisite time that he has stated is necessary to read so
          many
          > soul records each day of his life. He has been caught up in his
          own
          > contradictory statements and revealed himself to be a fraud.
          > > >
          > Thus, the initiations are entirely bogus. They represent nothing
          more
          > than organizational status. Observe the behavior of the online
          > clergy. These are not enlightened beings. They are ordinary
          people
          > caught up in the throes of everyday life, like most people are in
          the
          > rest of the world.
          > > >
          > Kent
          >
        • pretujari
          Hello, This reminds me of two scenerios regarding the initiations. One was to do with a couple. The husband was really perplexed when the pink slip came for
          Message 4 of 11 , Feb 5, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            Hello,
            This reminds me of two scenerios regarding the initiations. One was
            to do with a couple. The husband was really perplexed when the pink
            slip came for him and the wife for their 4th. According to the man,
            he never understood why his wife also received the 4th because she
            was quarrellsome, never practiced her spiritual exercises, nor had
            much time for Eckankar.He told me this when I explained the truth
            about the eckankar initiations to him. The other was an elderly woman
            who was very close to me . She confided in me amidst tears that she
            had stayed in the 3rd initiation for years. As she cried while
            narrating this, she wondered why and what she had done, since others
            who came after her had bypassed her in initiations. Unfortunately,
            she did not live long enough to know the truth. Am sure all has been
            made clear to her on the other side.
            Pretujari.





            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater"
            <tianyue@...> wrote:
            >


            > Ex-Initiator's Guide to Initiations
            >
            > [I've posted an earlier version of this before, and with the
            > discussion of secret words that has been ongoing on another group,
            I
            > thought this might be a good time to repost this. I've revised
            this,
            > and added rebuttles to comments Eckists have made to the original.-
            > K.A.]
            >
            >
            >
            > When I received the sixth initiation, I had essentially already
            > decided to leave Eckankar. I was still hanging on out of some
            slight
            > uncertainty, and also had decided to maintain my membership due to
            > the fact that my partner, Lisa, still remained loyal to Eckankar. A
            > year or two had passed while I was in this state of serious doubt
            and
            > skepticism, when the pink slip for the sixth initiation came. I was
            > surprised to say the least. Yet I wasn't too surprised. This
            > confirmed what I already suspected: Initiations are not overseen or
            > approved by a Mahanta or some omniscient being, but by a computer,
            > with the assistance of initiate reports, and recommendations by the
            > local Resa and other local High Initiates. I remained in Eckankar
            for
            > years after this, until the day my mate felt as I did, and we both
            > resigned.
            >
            > Lest there are those in Eckankar who don't yet know this, lists are
            > periodically sent out with names generated by a computer to the
            state
            > Resa (Regional Eck Spiritual Aid), who confers with local High
            > Initiates to either recommend or not, an initiation (Klemp himself
            > wrote of the computers producing the initiation lists a while back
            as
            > I recall). Around the time I left Eckankar, most Eckists were
            > automatically placed on the list every four or five years or so. If
            > for some reason an Eckist was denied, they would usually show up
            > again on the next year's list. Local H.I.'s in my area (including
            > myself) would routinely talk over the names on the list via the
            > telephone, and give their recommendations to the Resa according to
            > each chela's loyalty and degree of outer service to the org. Those
            > who were especially "troublesome" could be denied the initiation.
            The
            > Resa emphasized loyalty as the most important trait. The results
            from
            > the Resa are sent back to Minneapolis HQ where assistants appointed
            > by Harold approve or deny the initiation based on such things as
            the
            > time served as a dues paying member, the Resa recommendations, and
            > initiate reports. Some, including myself, have observed that
            initiate
            > reports (especially those which are positive or are written in
            praise
            > of the org) definitely can play a role in the initiation approval
            > process.
            >
            > Despite this, few people were denied an initiation if they were on
            > the list. Eckankar has a very liberal policy toward initiations. I
            > noticed that those who followed the disciplines well fared no
            better
            > or worse than those who didn't. I noticed people who smoked, drank
            or
            > never did their exercises stood just as great a chance of receiving
            > the fifth initiation as anyone <G>. More than anything, the
            > initiations were awarded based on time as a member. The rate at
            which
            > initiations were received could be accelerated or delayed based on
            > the chelas relationship with local H.I.'s and, especially, the
            state
            > Resa, who has a great deal of influence in such matters.
            >
            > And one other thing is clear: Those who do not substantially
            conform
            > to the expectations of the group are the ones most likely to be
            > denied an initiation. Despite this, the H.I.'s or Resa's in
            different
            > areas may vary in their tolerance levels, which accounts for the
            > stories heard about individuals who never received initiations in
            one
            > locale suddenly begin to receive them after moving to another area.
            > Also, I've witnessed initiations being approved after three or four
            > H.I's gave their unsolicited recommendations to Spiritual Services
            on
            > behalf of certain chelas who were thought of as exceptionally
            > deserving.
            >
            > I once had a friend who was extremely devoted to Eckankar, who had
            > lived in a remote area during most of her time as a member, and
            > didn't realize Eckankar's policy that time served as a dues paying
            > member counted toward initiation. As a result, she didn't receive
            > initiations for years do to the fact that she kept forgetting to
            > renew her membership, thinking such things to be of the material
            > worlds! She had no idea such trivialities mattered to the
            omniscient
            > Mahanta! This woman had a life membership (at one time you could
            pay
            > a large one time fee, $2,000, for a membership for life) but was
            > still required to notify Eckankar of her intent to renew annually,
            > though no additional fee was required. She didn't think such
            > formalities were all that important, and as a result, due to a less
            > than exemplary membership record, received no initiations beyond
            the
            > second, despite years of devotion to Eckankar. One often may hear
            > Eckists parroting that such outer initiations matter little, yet
            > privately, most Eckists seem to feel very strongly about the
            > initiations they are awarded.
            >
            > This isn't spoken of very much out in the open in Eckankar, but
            > people such as the woman in the example can become quite
            > disillusioned and depressed over not keeping up with their peers,
            > feeling left behind, unwanted, and forgotten by the Mahanta. They
            see
            > others who are seemingly less deserving receiving initiations,
            > whereas they, despite being very devoted to Eckankar and the
            > associated disciplines, seem to fall hopelessly behind. Due to
            > Eckankar's policy that one not ever request initiations, many
            suffer
            > in silence, sensing justifiably that something isn't quite right,
            yet
            > fear to even ask about the possibility of an error. In many cases,
            > even when they do ask, they face a stony silence from the org, or
            are
            > told they are being "tested" spiritually, when all that is needed
            is
            > a quick check of the record. This is one of the way's such a system
            > can inflict undue pain upon its members, and is one reason I am
            > taking the time to write about this in detail.
            >
            > Think about the numbers involved in the initiation approval
            process.
            > If there are, as claimed, 50,000 members in the org, and each is
            > considered for an initiation every five years or so, then that
            would
            > average 10,000 per year, or 833 per month, or about 40 per day
            > (excluding weekends), or about one initiation to be approved every
            10
            > to 15 minutes in an average eight hour day. Klemp would have to
            work
            > full time on initiations every day for the rest of his life to
            spend
            > 10 to 15 minutes every five years on the "individual" member (do
            the
            > math and see for yourself). Klemp has said that he checks the inner
            > akashic and soul records to make such a choice. Remember that this
            > would have to be done to merely consider a person for initiation,
            > that is, to give each chela the individual attention and
            > consideration that is due, whether or not the chela is actually
            > approved for initiation.
            >
            > Klemp would have to live out of the body most of his life to
            > accomplish such a feat. He would have no time for seminars, writing
            > his constant supply of books, writing his speeches, eating,
            drinking,
            > sleeping, going to meetings, running the corporation, etc. For
            those
            > who argue that such reading of soul records does not take time,
            > consider that Klemp has discontinued private requests for
            > consultations to do soul readings because, according to him, it
            takes
            > hours to accomplish an accurate reading of the soul records of just
            > one person. Thus, a mere fifteen minutes would not be sufficient to
            > approve an initiation, even if he did spend all day, every day of
            his
            > life approving initiations. Think about this!
            >
            > From this it can be deduced that Klemp has, for the most part,
            > nothing to do with the initiations, other than, perhaps, performing
            a
            > perfunctory blessing of them in the eckankar offices to fool the
            > membership. He simply doesn't have the time.
            >
            > Remember this key point: It's a fact that someone would have to act
            > on the physical plane to approve the initiations and physically
            send
            > out pink slips. No matter how you slice it, this person (or more
            > likely, persons) is not the Living Eck Master, but rather, several
            > paid employees.
            >
            > Some people argue that the true initiations are "inner," and
            > therefore the outer initiations are not the true initiations. The
            > fallacy in the logic of this argument is that Twitchell originally
            > stated that the inner initiation comes before the outer, due to the
            > principle of "as above, so below," which means that outer events
            > occur on the inner first, manifesting outwardly later. Klemp has
            > attempted to confuse people by reversing this, claiming that it
            takes
            > time to grow into an initiation. But here Klemp contradicts
            himself,
            > since Klemp has expressly stated in writing that he personally
            > approves the outer initiations by reading the inner soul records.
            > This means the person receiving the outer initiation would have,
            > according to Klemp's own written statements, already have the inner
            > preparation, and thus would have received the inner initiation. It
            is
            > absurd to conclude that Klemp, in taking time to read the soul
            > records to approve the outer initiation, would not include as part
            of
            > that time and effort the giving of the actual inner initiation, if
            > after having read the soul records it was determined the chela was
            > eligible for the initiation. Thus, the logic that the inner and
            outer
            > initiations are separate and not inextricably linked is denied in
            > statements by Eckankar's only presumed authority, the Living Eck
            > Master, Harold Klemp. And the obvious fact is, Klemp would not have
            > the requisite time that he has stated is necessary to read so many
            > soul records each day of his life. He has been caught up in his own
            > contradictory statements and revealed himself to be a fraud.
            >
            > Thus, the initiations are entirely bogus. They represent nothing
            more
            > than organizational status. Observe the behavior of the online
            > clergy. These are not enlightened beings. They are ordinary people
            > caught up in the throes of everyday life, like most people are in
            the
            > rest of the world.
            >
            > Kent
            >
          • pretujari
            Hi All, Klemp spent 14 years in training and became a Mahanta/LEM of the 14th. His successor has spent 25years and counting in training and will only come in
            Message 5 of 11 , Feb 5, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi All,
              Klemp spent 14 years in training and became a Mahanta/LEM of the
              14th. His successor has spent 25years and counting in training and
              will only come in as 12th Initiate LEM of the 'Mahanta
              Consciousness.' It just doesn't add up.
              Pretujari

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
              <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi All,
              > I thought that I'd bring this back for more comments.
              >
              > I noticed that some chelas who were put on the RESA's
              > sh_t list were there for up to three years and, thus, had
              > their initiations delayed for three years. Some of these
              > RESAs are really into the three thing except, of course,
              > when doing their "five year (business) plan!" The ESC
              > just follows the lead of the RESAs and the RESAs follow
              > the gossip and recommendations of their friends who
              > are H.I.s.
              >
              > Also, at one time a life membership was $500, but this
              > was early on and for just a brief time period when quick
              > money was needed. However, just before DG was booted
              > Darwin reinstated the lifetime membership donation
              > for $1,000! DG took the money and ran while leaving HK
              > holding the bag. However, I'm told, that HK still requires
              > all of the lifetime members to renew each year or lose their
              > lifetime memberships! I haven't heard about the $2,000
              > lifetime memberships that Kent spoke of. Is that what
              > they cost now? What a scam! Especially, if one has to still
              > renew it each year or lose it!
              >
              > Anyway, it doesn't seem very "spiritual" does it? It's typical
              > for HK to preach about one thing and do the opposite!
              >
              > I found these quotes in the Shariyat 2, Ch.2, Books 1&2:
              >
              > "There will be those who call themselves ECK Masters and
              > disguise themselves under the robes of ECK, but they are
              > prophets with false faces who are lying to take in the
              > ECKists... in search of the material things of life: money,
              > health, and physical happiness."
              >
              > So, it seems that Paul was, basically, and maybe unknowingly
              > tying together some random insights to the future of ECKANKAR
              > and to his succesors! The irony is that Paul was more of the
              > Conman than the Godman and was, also, speaking of himself
              > and his own limitations.
              >
              > Yes, the seeker will find "the pseudogurus scattered throughout
              > the world... he will find false prophets and the so-called teachers
              > ... the paradox is that pure consciousness is simultaneously both
              > positive and negative... the light is darkness and darkness is
              light
              > and sound... both are the qualities of the ECK."
              >
              > With this kind of circular logic I can see how Twitchell was able
              > to justify his scam! Just make yourself into a indisputable "God"
              > or authority figure (LEM/Mahanta) and recreate history and reality
              > to suit your needs while attracting a following of needy, gullible,
              > trusting, spiritual seekers who have always felt like or have been
              > misfits in society, in orthodox religion, or within their own
              families.
              > Sell spiritual liberation while creating an admirable vocation for
              > yourself as Top Dog or as Top God!
              >
              > However, I must say that timing is everything. Perhaps this is also
              > why ECKANKAR membership numbers are dropping, and why there
              > is such a push to get the ECK Youth more brainwashed and to get
              > the Vahana (Missionary) volunteer army into the field of action. HK
              > is doing a "sell" of ECKANKAR and of himself that definitely goes
              > beyond just getting the normal word of mouth "message" out.
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > prometheus wrote:
              > >
              > Hi Kent,
              > I agree, the ECK Initiations are bogus. It is strange how
              > Klemp has stated that a Chela grows "into" their initiation
              > years after receiving it on the outer. Therefore, a 5th wouldn't
              > know that they had completed the tests, lessons, etc. of the
              > 5th until they received the 6th! Yet, in the Masters 4 Discourse,
              > Lesson 2 on The Ninth Initiation, HK states that the Initiation
              > is NOT completed until the third and final stage of confirmation
              > is given on the outer. Thus, there are two "inner" stages and
              > one "outer" stage for the 9th initiation.
              > >
              > Maybe HK's other explanation came about when Gross was
              > kicked to the curb, but sent out 500 Higher Initiations before
              > he left! HK said these chelas weren't supposed to get promoted,
              > but would work with them (on the inner) to bring them up to
              > speed or up to that level of delusion. Still, it doesn't explain
              > why people skipped initiations or only served a few months in
              > one before receiving the next one! Klemp never addressed that
              > issue since he too benefited and experienced that same thing via
              > DG.
              > >
              > One would think that one explanation should apply to all, but
              > Klemp changes things as he sees fit because he can! It's a
              > tough job to keep his and Paul's nonsense sorted out. Then
              > again, keeping ECKists off balance and confused is part
              > of the plan. If people can accept all sorts and all amounts of
              > crap via blind faith and imagination then why be concerned?
              > Besides, ECKists see it as a test... or a paradox... or as just
              > Lower World Mental expressions that are limiting. The "inner"
              > is the only true reality for them... right? I always found it
              > interesting how PT would give people a heads up to truth
              > on occasion. It's like a thief telling you not to forget to lock
              > your doors. Now wouldn't you assume a guy like that was
              > to be trusted?
              > >
              > Here's a supposed quote from Shamus-i-Tabriz from a
              > chela's dream: "Little do we realize how our expectations
              > shape our experiences and reality." [pg. 88, TWEM]
              > >
              > Now, if only ECKists could see the truth of that statement!
              > >
              > Prometheus
              > >
              > Kent wrote:
              > > >
              > Ex-Initiator's Guide to Initiations
              > > >
              > [I've posted an earlier version of this before, and with the
              > discussion of secret words that has been ongoing on another group,
              I
              > thought this might be a good time to repost this. I've revised
              this,
              > and added rebuttles to comments Eckists have made to the original.-
              > K.A.]
              > > >
              > When I received the sixth initiation, I had essentially already
              > decided to leave Eckankar. I was still hanging on out of some
              slight
              > uncertainty, and also had decided to maintain my membership due to
              > the fact that my partner, Lisa, still remained loyal to Eckankar. A
              > year or two had passed while I was in this state of serious doubt
              and
              > skepticism, when the pink slip for the sixth initiation came. I was
              > surprised to say the least. Yet I wasn't too surprised. This
              > confirmed what I already suspected: Initiations are not overseen or
              > approved by a Mahanta or some omniscient being, but by a computer,
              > with the assistance of initiate reports, and recommendations by the
              > local Resa and other local High Initiates. I remained in Eckankar
              for
              > years after this, until the day my mate felt as I did, and we both
              > resigned.
              > > >
              > Lest there are those in Eckankar who don't yet know this, lists are
              > periodically sent out with names generated by a computer to the
              state
              > Resa (Regional Eck Spiritual Aid), who confers with local High
              > Initiates to either recommend or not, an initiation (Klemp himself
              > wrote of the computers producing the initiation lists a while back
              as
              > I recall). Around the time I left Eckankar, most Eckists were
              > automatically placed on the list every four or five years or so. If
              > for some reason an Eckist was denied, they would usually show up
              > again on the next year's list. Local H.I.'s in my area (including
              > myself) would routinely talk over the names on the list via the
              > telephone, and give their recommendations to the Resa according to
              > each chela's loyalty and degree of outer service to the org. Those
              > who were especially "troublesome" could be denied the initiation.
              The
              > Resa emphasized loyalty as the most important trait. The results
              from
              > the Resa are sent back to Minneapolis HQ where assistants appointed
              > by Harold approve or deny the initiation based on such things as
              the
              > time served as a dues paying member, the Resa recommendations, and
              > initiate reports. Some, including myself, have observed that
              initiate
              > reports (especially those which are positive or are written in
              praise
              > of the org) definitely can play a role in the initiation approval
              > process.
              > > >
              > Despite this, few people were denied an initiation if they were on
              > the list. Eckankar has a very liberal policy toward initiations. I
              > noticed that those who followed the disciplines well fared no
              better
              > or worse than those who didn't. I noticed people who smoked, drank
              or
              > never did their exercises stood just as great a chance of receiving
              > the fifth initiation as anyone <G>. More than anything, the
              > initiations were awarded based on time as a member. The rate at
              which
              > initiations were received could be accelerated or delayed based on
              > the chelas relationship with local H.I.'s and, especially, the
              state
              > Resa, who has a great deal of influence in such matters.
              > > >
              > And one other thing is clear: Those who do not substantially
              conform
              > to the expectations of the group are the ones most likely to be
              > denied an initiation. Despite this, the H.I.'s or Resa's in
              different
              > areas may vary in their tolerance levels, which accounts for the
              > stories heard about individuals who never received initiations in
              one
              > locale suddenly begin to receive them after moving to another area.
              > Also, I've witnessed initiations being approved after three or four
              > H.I's gave their unsolicited recommendations to Spiritual Services
              on
              > behalf of certain chelas who were thought of as exceptionally
              > deserving.
              > > >
              > I once had a friend who was extremely devoted to Eckankar, who had
              > lived in a remote area during most of her time as a member, and
              > didn't realize Eckankar's policy that time served as a dues paying
              > member counted toward initiation. As a result, she didn't receive
              > initiations for years do to the fact that she kept forgetting to
              > renew her membership, thinking such things to be of the material
              > worlds! She had no idea such trivialities mattered to the
              omniscient
              > Mahanta! This woman had a life membership (at one time you could
              pay
              > a large one time fee, $2,000, for a membership for life) but was
              > still required to notify Eckankar of her intent to renew annually,
              > though no additional fee was required. She didn't think such
              > formalities were all that important, and as a result, due to a less
              > than exemplary membership record, received no initiations beyond
              the
              > second, despite years of devotion to Eckankar. One often may hear
              > Eckists parroting that such outer initiations matter little, yet
              > privately, most Eckists seem to feel very strongly about the
              > initiations they are awarded.
              > > >
              > This isn't spoken of very much out in the open in Eckankar, but
              > people such as the woman in the example can become quite
              > disillusioned and depressed over not keeping up with their peers,
              > feeling left behind, unwanted, and forgotten by the Mahanta. They
              see
              > others who are seemingly less deserving receiving initiations,
              > whereas they, despite being very devoted to Eckankar and the
              > associated disciplines, seem to fall hopelessly behind. Due to
              > Eckankar's policy that one not ever request initiations, many
              suffer
              > in silence, sensing justifiably that something isn't quite right,
              yet
              > fear to even ask about the possibility of an error. In many cases,
              > even when they do ask, they face a stony silence from the org, or
              are
              > told they are being "tested" spiritually, when all that is needed
              is
              > a quick check of the record. This is one of the way's such a system
              > can inflict undue pain upon its members, and is one reason I am
              > taking the time to write about this in detail.
              > > >
              > Think about the numbers involved in the initiation approval
              process.
              > If there are, as claimed, 50,000 members in the org, and each is
              > considered for an initiation every five years or so, then that
              would
              > average 10,000 per year, or 833 per month, or about 40 per day
              > (excluding weekends), or about one initiation to be approved every
              10
              > to 15 minutes in an average eight hour day. Klemp would have to
              work
              > full time on initiations every day for the rest of his life to
              spend
              > 10 to 15 minutes every five years on the "individual" member (do
              the
              > math and see for yourself). Klemp has said that he checks the inner
              > akashic and soul records to make such a choice. Remember that this
              > would have to be done to merely consider a person for initiation,
              > that is, to give each chela the individual attention and
              > consideration that is due, whether or not the chela is actually
              > approved for initiation.
              > > >
              > Klemp would have to live out of the body most of his life to
              > accomplish such a feat. He would have no time for seminars, writing
              > his constant supply of books, writing his speeches, eating,
              drinking,
              > sleeping, going to meetings, running the corporation, etc. For
              those
              > who argue that such reading of soul records does not take time,
              > consider that Klemp has discontinued private requests for
              > consultations to do soul readings because, according to him, it
              takes
              > hours to accomplish an accurate reading of the soul records of just
              > one person. Thus, a mere fifteen minutes would not be sufficient to
              > approve an initiation, even if he did spend all day, every day of
              his
              > life approving initiations. Think about this!
              > > >
              > From this it can be deduced that Klemp has, for the most part,
              > nothing to do with the initiations, other than, perhaps, performing
              a
              > perfunctory blessing of them in the eckankar offices to fool the
              > membership. He simply doesn't have the time.
              > > >
              > Remember this key point: It's a fact that someone would have to act
              > on the physical plane to approve the initiations and physically
              send
              > out pink slips. No matter how you slice it, this person (or more
              > likely, persons) is not the Living Eck Master, but rather, several
              > paid employees.
              > > >
              > Some people argue that the true initiations are "inner," and
              > therefore the outer initiations are not the true initiations. The
              > fallacy in the logic of this argument is that Twitchell originally
              > stated that the inner initiation comes before the outer, due to the
              > principle of "as above, so below," which means that outer events
              > occur on the inner first, manifesting outwardly later. Klemp has
              > attempted to confuse people by reversing this, claiming that it
              takes
              > time to grow into an initiation. But here Klemp contradicts
              himself,
              > since Klemp has expressly stated in writing that he personally
              > approves the outer initiations by reading the inner soul records.
              > This means the person receiving the outer initiation would have,
              > according to Klemp's own written statements, already have the inner
              > preparation, and thus would have received the inner initiation. It
              is
              > absurd to conclude that Klemp, in taking time to read the soul
              > records to approve the outer initiation, would not include as part
              of
              > that time and effort the giving of the actual inner initiation, if
              > after having read the soul records it was determined the chela was
              > eligible for the initiation. Thus, the logic that the inner and
              outer
              > initiations are separate and not inextricably linked is denied in
              > statements by Eckankar's only presumed authority, the Living Eck
              > Master, Harold Klemp. And the obvious fact is, Klemp would not have
              > the requisite time that he has stated is necessary to read so many
              > soul records each day of his life. He has been caught up in his own
              > contradictory statements and revealed himself to be a fraud.
              > > >
              > Thus, the initiations are entirely bogus. They represent nothing
              more
              > than organizational status. Observe the behavior of the online
              > clergy. These are not enlightened beings. They are ordinary people
              > caught up in the throes of everyday life, like most people are in
              the
              > rest of the world.
              > > >
              > Kent
              >
            • mishmisha9
              ... The other was an elderly woman ... *********************************************************************** Pretujari, this story about the elderly woman
              Message 6 of 11 , Feb 5, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "pretujari"
                <pretujari@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > Hello,
                > This reminds me of two scenerios regarding the initiations. One was
                > to do with a couple. The husband was really perplexed when the pink
                > slip came for him and the wife for their 4th. According to the man,
                > he never understood why his wife also received the 4th because she
                > was quarrellsome, never practiced her spiritual exercises, nor had
                > much time for Eckankar.He told me this when I explained the truth
                > about the eckankar initiations to him.


                The other was an elderly woman
                > who was very close to me . She confided in me amidst tears that she
                > had stayed in the 3rd initiation for years. As she cried while
                > narrating this, she wondered why and what she had done, since others
                > who came after her had bypassed her in initiations. Unfortunately,
                > she did not live long enough to know the truth. Am sure all has been
                > made clear to her on the other side.
                > Pretujari.
                >

                ***********************************************************************

                Pretujari, this story about the elderly woman demonstrates why
                eckankar is not a benign cult! It is really sad that she was so
                tormented about making those initiation levels up until her time
                of passing! Shame on Klemp and his fraudulent org for sucking
                the life out of innocent Souls who just want to achieve a sincere
                connection with God! I feel both sad and angry to think of this
                woman's sorrow--it's not a good way to live one's life feeling passed
                over like that!

                Klemp will ultimately pay for his lies and deceptions! He talks about
                fear so I have to wonder if he doesn't suffer from real fears in
                knowing that he has been committing these great spiritual crimes?

                Eckankar is not harmless in that it does damage Souls.

                Mish

                **************************************************************************

                >
                >
                >
                > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater"
                > <tianyue@> wrote:
                > >
                >
                >
                > > Ex-Initiator's Guide to Initiations
                > >
                > > [I've posted an earlier version of this before, and with the
                > > discussion of secret words that has been ongoing on another group,
                > I
                > > thought this might be a good time to repost this. I've revised
                > this,
                > > and added rebuttles to comments Eckists have made to the original.-
                > > K.A.]
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > When I received the sixth initiation, I had essentially already
                > > decided to leave Eckankar. I was still hanging on out of some
                > slight
                > > uncertainty, and also had decided to maintain my membership due to
                > > the fact that my partner, Lisa, still remained loyal to Eckankar. A
                > > year or two had passed while I was in this state of serious doubt
                > and
                > > skepticism, when the pink slip for the sixth initiation came. I was
                > > surprised to say the least. Yet I wasn't too surprised. This
                > > confirmed what I already suspected: Initiations are not overseen or
                > > approved by a Mahanta or some omniscient being, but by a computer,
                > > with the assistance of initiate reports, and recommendations by the
                > > local Resa and other local High Initiates. I remained in Eckankar
                > for
                > > years after this, until the day my mate felt as I did, and we both
                > > resigned.
                > >
                > > Lest there are those in Eckankar who don't yet know this, lists are
                > > periodically sent out with names generated by a computer to the
                > state
                > > Resa (Regional Eck Spiritual Aid), who confers with local High
                > > Initiates to either recommend or not, an initiation (Klemp himself
                > > wrote of the computers producing the initiation lists a while back
                > as
                > > I recall). Around the time I left Eckankar, most Eckists were
                > > automatically placed on the list every four or five years or so. If
                > > for some reason an Eckist was denied, they would usually show up
                > > again on the next year's list. Local H.I.'s in my area (including
                > > myself) would routinely talk over the names on the list via the
                > > telephone, and give their recommendations to the Resa according to
                > > each chela's loyalty and degree of outer service to the org. Those
                > > who were especially "troublesome" could be denied the initiation.
                > The
                > > Resa emphasized loyalty as the most important trait. The results
                > from
                > > the Resa are sent back to Minneapolis HQ where assistants appointed
                > > by Harold approve or deny the initiation based on such things as
                > the
                > > time served as a dues paying member, the Resa recommendations, and
                > > initiate reports. Some, including myself, have observed that
                > initiate
                > > reports (especially those which are positive or are written in
                > praise
                > > of the org) definitely can play a role in the initiation approval
                > > process.
                > >
                > > Despite this, few people were denied an initiation if they were on
                > > the list. Eckankar has a very liberal policy toward initiations. I
                > > noticed that those who followed the disciplines well fared no
                > better
                > > or worse than those who didn't. I noticed people who smoked, drank
                > or
                > > never did their exercises stood just as great a chance of receiving
                > > the fifth initiation as anyone <G>. More than anything, the
                > > initiations were awarded based on time as a member. The rate at
                > which
                > > initiations were received could be accelerated or delayed based on
                > > the chelas relationship with local H.I.'s and, especially, the
                > state
                > > Resa, who has a great deal of influence in such matters.
                > >
                > > And one other thing is clear: Those who do not substantially
                > conform
                > > to the expectations of the group are the ones most likely to be
                > > denied an initiation. Despite this, the H.I.'s or Resa's in
                > different
                > > areas may vary in their tolerance levels, which accounts for the
                > > stories heard about individuals who never received initiations in
                > one
                > > locale suddenly begin to receive them after moving to another area.
                > > Also, I've witnessed initiations being approved after three or four
                > > H.I's gave their unsolicited recommendations to Spiritual Services
                > on
                > > behalf of certain chelas who were thought of as exceptionally
                > > deserving.
                > >
                > > I once had a friend who was extremely devoted to Eckankar, who had
                > > lived in a remote area during most of her time as a member, and
                > > didn't realize Eckankar's policy that time served as a dues paying
                > > member counted toward initiation. As a result, she didn't receive
                > > initiations for years do to the fact that she kept forgetting to
                > > renew her membership, thinking such things to be of the material
                > > worlds! She had no idea such trivialities mattered to the
                > omniscient
                > > Mahanta! This woman had a life membership (at one time you could
                > pay
                > > a large one time fee, $2,000, for a membership for life) but was
                > > still required to notify Eckankar of her intent to renew annually,
                > > though no additional fee was required. She didn't think such
                > > formalities were all that important, and as a result, due to a less
                > > than exemplary membership record, received no initiations beyond
                > the
                > > second, despite years of devotion to Eckankar. One often may hear
                > > Eckists parroting that such outer initiations matter little, yet
                > > privately, most Eckists seem to feel very strongly about the
                > > initiations they are awarded.
                > >
                > > This isn't spoken of very much out in the open in Eckankar, but
                > > people such as the woman in the example can become quite
                > > disillusioned and depressed over not keeping up with their peers,
                > > feeling left behind, unwanted, and forgotten by the Mahanta. They
                > see
                > > others who are seemingly less deserving receiving initiations,
                > > whereas they, despite being very devoted to Eckankar and the
                > > associated disciplines, seem to fall hopelessly behind. Due to
                > > Eckankar's policy that one not ever request initiations, many
                > suffer
                > > in silence, sensing justifiably that something isn't quite right,
                > yet
                > > fear to even ask about the possibility of an error. In many cases,
                > > even when they do ask, they face a stony silence from the org, or
                > are
                > > told they are being "tested" spiritually, when all that is needed
                > is
                > > a quick check of the record. This is one of the way's such a system
                > > can inflict undue pain upon its members, and is one reason I am
                > > taking the time to write about this in detail.
                > >
                > > Think about the numbers involved in the initiation approval
                > process.
                > > If there are, as claimed, 50,000 members in the org, and each is
                > > considered for an initiation every five years or so, then that
                > would
                > > average 10,000 per year, or 833 per month, or about 40 per day
                > > (excluding weekends), or about one initiation to be approved every
                > 10
                > > to 15 minutes in an average eight hour day. Klemp would have to
                > work
                > > full time on initiations every day for the rest of his life to
                > spend
                > > 10 to 15 minutes every five years on the "individual" member (do
                > the
                > > math and see for yourself). Klemp has said that he checks the inner
                > > akashic and soul records to make such a choice. Remember that this
                > > would have to be done to merely consider a person for initiation,
                > > that is, to give each chela the individual attention and
                > > consideration that is due, whether or not the chela is actually
                > > approved for initiation.
                > >
                > > Klemp would have to live out of the body most of his life to
                > > accomplish such a feat. He would have no time for seminars, writing
                > > his constant supply of books, writing his speeches, eating,
                > drinking,
                > > sleeping, going to meetings, running the corporation, etc. For
                > those
                > > who argue that such reading of soul records does not take time,
                > > consider that Klemp has discontinued private requests for
                > > consultations to do soul readings because, according to him, it
                > takes
                > > hours to accomplish an accurate reading of the soul records of just
                > > one person. Thus, a mere fifteen minutes would not be sufficient to
                > > approve an initiation, even if he did spend all day, every day of
                > his
                > > life approving initiations. Think about this!
                > >
                > > From this it can be deduced that Klemp has, for the most part,
                > > nothing to do with the initiations, other than, perhaps, performing
                > a
                > > perfunctory blessing of them in the eckankar offices to fool the
                > > membership. He simply doesn't have the time.
                > >
                > > Remember this key point: It's a fact that someone would have to act
                > > on the physical plane to approve the initiations and physically
                > send
                > > out pink slips. No matter how you slice it, this person (or more
                > > likely, persons) is not the Living Eck Master, but rather, several
                > > paid employees.
                > >
                > > Some people argue that the true initiations are "inner," and
                > > therefore the outer initiations are not the true initiations. The
                > > fallacy in the logic of this argument is that Twitchell originally
                > > stated that the inner initiation comes before the outer, due to the
                > > principle of "as above, so below," which means that outer events
                > > occur on the inner first, manifesting outwardly later. Klemp has
                > > attempted to confuse people by reversing this, claiming that it
                > takes
                > > time to grow into an initiation. But here Klemp contradicts
                > himself,
                > > since Klemp has expressly stated in writing that he personally
                > > approves the outer initiations by reading the inner soul records.
                > > This means the person receiving the outer initiation would have,
                > > according to Klemp's own written statements, already have the inner
                > > preparation, and thus would have received the inner initiation. It
                > is
                > > absurd to conclude that Klemp, in taking time to read the soul
                > > records to approve the outer initiation, would not include as part
                > of
                > > that time and effort the giving of the actual inner initiation, if
                > > after having read the soul records it was determined the chela was
                > > eligible for the initiation. Thus, the logic that the inner and
                > outer
                > > initiations are separate and not inextricably linked is denied in
                > > statements by Eckankar's only presumed authority, the Living Eck
                > > Master, Harold Klemp. And the obvious fact is, Klemp would not have
                > > the requisite time that he has stated is necessary to read so many
                > > soul records each day of his life. He has been caught up in his own
                > > contradictory statements and revealed himself to be a fraud.
                > >
                > > Thus, the initiations are entirely bogus. They represent nothing
                > more
                > > than organizational status. Observe the behavior of the online
                > > clergy. These are not enlightened beings. They are ordinary people
                > > caught up in the throes of everyday life, like most people are in
                > the
                > > rest of the world.
                > >
                > > Kent
                > >
                >
              • tomleafeater
                ... woman ... others ... been ... Thanks for the reply, Pretujari. Yes, you have captured well the meaning of the story in my post with your own anecdotes.
                Message 7 of 11 , Feb 5, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "pretujari"
                  <pretujari@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Hello,
                  > This reminds me of two scenerios regarding the initiations. One was
                  > to do with a couple. The husband was really perplexed when the pink
                  > slip came for him and the wife for their 4th. According to the man,
                  > he never understood why his wife also received the 4th because she
                  > was quarrellsome, never practiced her spiritual exercises, nor had
                  > much time for Eckankar.He told me this when I explained the truth
                  > about the eckankar initiations to him. The other was an elderly
                  woman
                  > who was very close to me . She confided in me amidst tears that she
                  > had stayed in the 3rd initiation for years. As she cried while
                  > narrating this, she wondered why and what she had done, since
                  others
                  > who came after her had bypassed her in initiations. Unfortunately,
                  > she did not live long enough to know the truth. Am sure all has
                  been
                  > made clear to her on the other side.
                  > Pretujari.




                  Thanks for the reply, Pretujari. Yes, you have captured well the
                  meaning of the story in my post with your own anecdotes. Frankly,
                  during my 28 years in eckankar I'd witnessed many such individuals
                  who sincerely wanted to find enlightenment only to become caught up
                  in the completely unfair initiation process. People in eckankar like
                  to pretend they are "detached" about such things, but the real truth
                  is that the initiations become very important milestones to eckists,
                  and when they are unfairly awarded, which they are, serious affects
                  occur in members.

                  Again, thanks for your great reply. I think your post really helps to
                  bring out the harmful effects of the bogus "initiations" on members.

                  Kent




                  >
                  > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater"
                  > <tianyue@> wrote:
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > > Ex-Initiator's Guide to Initiations
                  > >
                  > > [I've posted an earlier version of this before, and with the
                  > > discussion of secret words that has been ongoing on another
                  group,
                  > I
                  > > thought this might be a good time to repost this. I've revised
                  > this,
                  > > and added rebuttles to comments Eckists have made to the
                  original.-
                  > > K.A.]
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > When I received the sixth initiation, I had essentially already
                  > > decided to leave Eckankar. I was still hanging on out of some
                  > slight
                  > > uncertainty, and also had decided to maintain my membership due
                  to
                  > > the fact that my partner, Lisa, still remained loyal to Eckankar.
                  A
                  > > year or two had passed while I was in this state of serious doubt
                  > and
                  > > skepticism, when the pink slip for the sixth initiation came. I
                  was
                  > > surprised to say the least. Yet I wasn't too surprised. This
                  > > confirmed what I already suspected: Initiations are not overseen
                  or
                  > > approved by a Mahanta or some omniscient being, but by a
                  computer,
                  > > with the assistance of initiate reports, and recommendations by
                  the
                  > > local Resa and other local High Initiates. I remained in Eckankar
                  > for
                  > > years after this, until the day my mate felt as I did, and we
                  both
                  > > resigned.
                  > >
                  > > Lest there are those in Eckankar who don't yet know this, lists
                  are
                  > > periodically sent out with names generated by a computer to the
                  > state
                  > > Resa (Regional Eck Spiritual Aid), who confers with local High
                  > > Initiates to either recommend or not, an initiation (Klemp
                  himself
                  > > wrote of the computers producing the initiation lists a while
                  back
                  > as
                  > > I recall). Around the time I left Eckankar, most Eckists were
                  > > automatically placed on the list every four or five years or so.
                  If
                  > > for some reason an Eckist was denied, they would usually show up
                  > > again on the next year's list. Local H.I.'s in my area (including
                  > > myself) would routinely talk over the names on the list via the
                  > > telephone, and give their recommendations to the Resa according
                  to
                  > > each chela's loyalty and degree of outer service to the org.
                  Those
                  > > who were especially "troublesome" could be denied the initiation.
                  > The
                  > > Resa emphasized loyalty as the most important trait. The results
                  > from
                  > > the Resa are sent back to Minneapolis HQ where assistants
                  appointed
                  > > by Harold approve or deny the initiation based on such things as
                  > the
                  > > time served as a dues paying member, the Resa recommendations,
                  and
                  > > initiate reports. Some, including myself, have observed that
                  > initiate
                  > > reports (especially those which are positive or are written in
                  > praise
                  > > of the org) definitely can play a role in the initiation approval
                  > > process.
                  > >
                  > > Despite this, few people were denied an initiation if they were
                  on
                  > > the list. Eckankar has a very liberal policy toward initiations.
                  I
                  > > noticed that those who followed the disciplines well fared no
                  > better
                  > > or worse than those who didn't. I noticed people who smoked,
                  drank
                  > or
                  > > never did their exercises stood just as great a chance of
                  receiving
                  > > the fifth initiation as anyone <G>. More than anything, the
                  > > initiations were awarded based on time as a member. The rate at
                  > which
                  > > initiations were received could be accelerated or delayed based
                  on
                  > > the chelas relationship with local H.I.'s and, especially, the
                  > state
                  > > Resa, who has a great deal of influence in such matters.
                  > >
                  > > And one other thing is clear: Those who do not substantially
                  > conform
                  > > to the expectations of the group are the ones most likely to be
                  > > denied an initiation. Despite this, the H.I.'s or Resa's in
                  > different
                  > > areas may vary in their tolerance levels, which accounts for the
                  > > stories heard about individuals who never received initiations in
                  > one
                  > > locale suddenly begin to receive them after moving to another
                  area.
                  > > Also, I've witnessed initiations being approved after three or
                  four
                  > > H.I's gave their unsolicited recommendations to Spiritual
                  Services
                  > on
                  > > behalf of certain chelas who were thought of as exceptionally
                  > > deserving.
                  > >
                  > > I once had a friend who was extremely devoted to Eckankar, who
                  had
                  > > lived in a remote area during most of her time as a member, and
                  > > didn't realize Eckankar's policy that time served as a dues
                  paying
                  > > member counted toward initiation. As a result, she didn't receive
                  > > initiations for years do to the fact that she kept forgetting to
                  > > renew her membership, thinking such things to be of the material
                  > > worlds! She had no idea such trivialities mattered to the
                  > omniscient
                  > > Mahanta! This woman had a life membership (at one time you could
                  > pay
                  > > a large one time fee, $2,000, for a membership for life) but was
                  > > still required to notify Eckankar of her intent to renew
                  annually,
                  > > though no additional fee was required. She didn't think such
                  > > formalities were all that important, and as a result, due to a
                  less
                  > > than exemplary membership record, received no initiations beyond
                  > the
                  > > second, despite years of devotion to Eckankar. One often may hear
                  > > Eckists parroting that such outer initiations matter little, yet
                  > > privately, most Eckists seem to feel very strongly about the
                  > > initiations they are awarded.
                  > >
                  > > This isn't spoken of very much out in the open in Eckankar, but
                  > > people such as the woman in the example can become quite
                  > > disillusioned and depressed over not keeping up with their peers,
                  > > feeling left behind, unwanted, and forgotten by the Mahanta. They
                  > see
                  > > others who are seemingly less deserving receiving initiations,
                  > > whereas they, despite being very devoted to Eckankar and the
                  > > associated disciplines, seem to fall hopelessly behind. Due to
                  > > Eckankar's policy that one not ever request initiations, many
                  > suffer
                  > > in silence, sensing justifiably that something isn't quite right,
                  > yet
                  > > fear to even ask about the possibility of an error. In many
                  cases,
                  > > even when they do ask, they face a stony silence from the org, or
                  > are
                  > > told they are being "tested" spiritually, when all that is needed
                  > is
                  > > a quick check of the record. This is one of the way's such a
                  system
                  > > can inflict undue pain upon its members, and is one reason I am
                  > > taking the time to write about this in detail.
                  > >
                  > > Think about the numbers involved in the initiation approval
                  > process.
                  > > If there are, as claimed, 50,000 members in the org, and each is
                  > > considered for an initiation every five years or so, then that
                  > would
                  > > average 10,000 per year, or 833 per month, or about 40 per day
                  > > (excluding weekends), or about one initiation to be approved
                  every
                  > 10
                  > > to 15 minutes in an average eight hour day. Klemp would have to
                  > work
                  > > full time on initiations every day for the rest of his life to
                  > spend
                  > > 10 to 15 minutes every five years on the "individual" member (do
                  > the
                  > > math and see for yourself). Klemp has said that he checks the
                  inner
                  > > akashic and soul records to make such a choice. Remember that
                  this
                  > > would have to be done to merely consider a person for initiation,
                  > > that is, to give each chela the individual attention and
                  > > consideration that is due, whether or not the chela is actually
                  > > approved for initiation.
                  > >
                  > > Klemp would have to live out of the body most of his life to
                  > > accomplish such a feat. He would have no time for seminars,
                  writing
                  > > his constant supply of books, writing his speeches, eating,
                  > drinking,
                  > > sleeping, going to meetings, running the corporation, etc. For
                  > those
                  > > who argue that such reading of soul records does not take time,
                  > > consider that Klemp has discontinued private requests for
                  > > consultations to do soul readings because, according to him, it
                  > takes
                  > > hours to accomplish an accurate reading of the soul records of
                  just
                  > > one person. Thus, a mere fifteen minutes would not be sufficient
                  to
                  > > approve an initiation, even if he did spend all day, every day of
                  > his
                  > > life approving initiations. Think about this!
                  > >
                  > > From this it can be deduced that Klemp has, for the most part,
                  > > nothing to do with the initiations, other than, perhaps,
                  performing
                  > a
                  > > perfunctory blessing of them in the eckankar offices to fool the
                  > > membership. He simply doesn't have the time.
                  > >
                  > > Remember this key point: It's a fact that someone would have to
                  act
                  > > on the physical plane to approve the initiations and physically
                  > send
                  > > out pink slips. No matter how you slice it, this person (or more
                  > > likely, persons) is not the Living Eck Master, but rather,
                  several
                  > > paid employees.
                  > >
                  > > Some people argue that the true initiations are "inner," and
                  > > therefore the outer initiations are not the true initiations. The
                  > > fallacy in the logic of this argument is that Twitchell
                  originally
                  > > stated that the inner initiation comes before the outer, due to
                  the
                  > > principle of "as above, so below," which means that outer events
                  > > occur on the inner first, manifesting outwardly later. Klemp has
                  > > attempted to confuse people by reversing this, claiming that it
                  > takes
                  > > time to grow into an initiation. But here Klemp contradicts
                  > himself,
                  > > since Klemp has expressly stated in writing that he personally
                  > > approves the outer initiations by reading the inner soul records.
                  > > This means the person receiving the outer initiation would have,
                  > > according to Klemp's own written statements, already have the
                  inner
                  > > preparation, and thus would have received the inner initiation.
                  It
                  > is
                  > > absurd to conclude that Klemp, in taking time to read the soul
                  > > records to approve the outer initiation, would not include as
                  part
                  > of
                  > > that time and effort the giving of the actual inner initiation,
                  if
                  > > after having read the soul records it was determined the chela
                  was
                  > > eligible for the initiation. Thus, the logic that the inner and
                  > outer
                  > > initiations are separate and not inextricably linked is denied in
                  > > statements by Eckankar's only presumed authority, the Living Eck
                  > > Master, Harold Klemp. And the obvious fact is, Klemp would not
                  have
                  > > the requisite time that he has stated is necessary to read so
                  many
                  > > soul records each day of his life. He has been caught up in his
                  own
                  > > contradictory statements and revealed himself to be a fraud.
                  > >
                  > > Thus, the initiations are entirely bogus. They represent nothing
                  > more
                  > > than organizational status. Observe the behavior of the online
                  > > clergy. These are not enlightened beings. They are ordinary
                  people
                  > > caught up in the throes of everyday life, like most people are in
                  > the
                  > > rest of the world.
                  > >
                  > > Kent
                  > >
                  >
                • prometheus_973
                  The arbitrary way in which the ECK Initiations come to ECKists proves that there is no inner communication with their Master. There is no equality of
                  Message 8 of 11 , Feb 6, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    The arbitrary way in which the ECK Initiations come to
                    ECKists proves that there is no inner communication
                    with their Master. There is no equality of consciousness
                    within the same Circle of Initiation! It's not even close!
                    Therefore, how can there be any truth in the words:
                    'I am always with you.' It's a lie that innocent people
                    have willingly bought into because they want and need
                    to believe in the lie of religion. And, the Eckankar religion
                    may be different and unique and give more answers when
                    compared to most other religions, but that doesn't mean
                    it's all true. Except for the LEM/Mahanta, the Initiations,
                    and the ECK Masters much of what Twitchell "compiled"
                    has some merit for Soul's individual investigation/journey.

                    Prometheus


                    pretujari wrote:
                    > >

                    Hello,
                    This reminds me of two scenerios regarding the initiations. One was
                    to do with a couple. The husband was really perplexed when the pink
                    slip came for him and the wife for their 4th. According to the man,
                    he never understood why his wife also received the 4th because she
                    was quarrellsome, never practiced her spiritual exercises, nor had
                    much time for Eckankar.He told me this when I explained the truth
                    about the eckankar initiations to him.
                    >

                    The other was an elderly woman who was very close to me.
                    She confided in me amidst tears that she had stayed in the
                    3rd initiation for years. As she cried while narrating this, she
                    wondered why and what she had done, since others who came
                    after her had bypassed her in initiations. Unfortunately, she
                    did not live long enough to know the truth. Am sure all has been
                    made clear to her on the other side.
                    Pretujari.

                    >
                    ***********************************************************************
                    >
                    Pretujari, this story about the elderly woman demonstrates why
                    eckankar is not a benign cult! It is really sad that she was so
                    tormented about making those initiation levels up until her time
                    of passing! Shame on Klemp and his fraudulent org for sucking
                    the life out of innocent Souls who just want to achieve a sincere
                    connection with God! I feel both sad and angry to think of this
                    woman's sorrow--it's not a good way to live one's life feeling passed
                    over like that!
                    >
                    Klemp will ultimately pay for his lies and deceptions! He talks about
                    fear so I have to wonder if he doesn't suffer from real fears in
                    knowing that he has been committing these great spiritual crimes?
                    >
                    Eckankar is not harmless in that it does damage Souls.
                    >
                    Mish

                    > **************************************************************************
                    tianyue wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    Ex-Initiator's Guide to Initiations
                    > > >
                    [I've posted an earlier version of this before, and with the
                    discussion of secret words that has been ongoing on another group,
                    I thought this might be a good time to repost this. I've revised
                    this, and added rebuttles to comments Eckists have made to the original.-
                    K.A.]

                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > When I received the sixth initiation, I had essentially already
                    > > > decided to leave Eckankar. I was still hanging on out of some
                    > > slight
                    > > > uncertainty, and also had decided to maintain my membership due to
                    > > > the fact that my partner, Lisa, still remained loyal to Eckankar. A
                    > > > year or two had passed while I was in this state of serious doubt
                    > > and
                    > > > skepticism, when the pink slip for the sixth initiation came. I was
                    > > > surprised to say the least. Yet I wasn't too surprised. This
                    > > > confirmed what I already suspected: Initiations are not overseen or
                    > > > approved by a Mahanta or some omniscient being, but by a computer,
                    > > > with the assistance of initiate reports, and recommendations by the
                    > > > local Resa and other local High Initiates. I remained in Eckankar
                    > > for
                    > > > years after this, until the day my mate felt as I did, and we both
                    > > > resigned.
                    > > >
                    > > > Lest there are those in Eckankar who don't yet know this, lists are
                    > > > periodically sent out with names generated by a computer to the
                    > > state
                    > > > Resa (Regional Eck Spiritual Aid), who confers with local High
                    > > > Initiates to either recommend or not, an initiation (Klemp himself
                    > > > wrote of the computers producing the initiation lists a while back
                    > > as
                    > > > I recall). Around the time I left Eckankar, most Eckists were
                    > > > automatically placed on the list every four or five years or so. If
                    > > > for some reason an Eckist was denied, they would usually show up
                    > > > again on the next year's list. Local H.I.'s in my area (including
                    > > > myself) would routinely talk over the names on the list via the
                    > > > telephone, and give their recommendations to the Resa according to
                    > > > each chela's loyalty and degree of outer service to the org. Those
                    > > > who were especially "troublesome" could be denied the initiation.
                    > > The
                    > > > Resa emphasized loyalty as the most important trait. The results
                    > > from
                    > > > the Resa are sent back to Minneapolis HQ where assistants appointed
                    > > > by Harold approve or deny the initiation based on such things as
                    > > the
                    > > > time served as a dues paying member, the Resa recommendations, and
                    > > > initiate reports. Some, including myself, have observed that
                    > > initiate
                    > > > reports (especially those which are positive or are written in
                    > > praise
                    > > > of the org) definitely can play a role in the initiation approval
                    > > > process.
                    > > >
                    > > > Despite this, few people were denied an initiation if they were on
                    > > > the list. Eckankar has a very liberal policy toward initiations. I
                    > > > noticed that those who followed the disciplines well fared no
                    > > better
                    > > > or worse than those who didn't. I noticed people who smoked, drank
                    > > or
                    > > > never did their exercises stood just as great a chance of receiving
                    > > > the fifth initiation as anyone <G>. More than anything, the
                    > > > initiations were awarded based on time as a member. The rate at
                    > > which
                    > > > initiations were received could be accelerated or delayed based on
                    > > > the chelas relationship with local H.I.'s and, especially, the
                    > > state
                    > > > Resa, who has a great deal of influence in such matters.
                    > > >
                    > > > And one other thing is clear: Those who do not substantially
                    > > conform
                    > > > to the expectations of the group are the ones most likely to be
                    > > > denied an initiation. Despite this, the H.I.'s or Resa's in
                    > > different
                    > > > areas may vary in their tolerance levels, which accounts for the
                    > > > stories heard about individuals who never received initiations in
                    > > one
                    > > > locale suddenly begin to receive them after moving to another area.
                    > > > Also, I've witnessed initiations being approved after three or four
                    > > > H.I's gave their unsolicited recommendations to Spiritual Services
                    > > on
                    > > > behalf of certain chelas who were thought of as exceptionally
                    > > > deserving.
                    > > >
                    > > > I once had a friend who was extremely devoted to Eckankar, who had
                    > > > lived in a remote area during most of her time as a member, and
                    > > > didn't realize Eckankar's policy that time served as a dues paying
                    > > > member counted toward initiation. As a result, she didn't receive
                    > > > initiations for years do to the fact that she kept forgetting to
                    > > > renew her membership, thinking such things to be of the material
                    > > > worlds! She had no idea such trivialities mattered to the
                    > > omniscient
                    > > > Mahanta! This woman had a life membership (at one time you could
                    > > pay
                    > > > a large one time fee, $2,000, for a membership for life) but was
                    > > > still required to notify Eckankar of her intent to renew annually,
                    > > > though no additional fee was required. She didn't think such
                    > > > formalities were all that important, and as a result, due to a less
                    > > > than exemplary membership record, received no initiations beyond
                    > > the
                    > > > second, despite years of devotion to Eckankar. One often may hear
                    > > > Eckists parroting that such outer initiations matter little, yet
                    > > > privately, most Eckists seem to feel very strongly about the
                    > > > initiations they are awarded.
                    > > >
                    > > > This isn't spoken of very much out in the open in Eckankar, but
                    > > > people such as the woman in the example can become quite
                    > > > disillusioned and depressed over not keeping up with their peers,
                    > > > feeling left behind, unwanted, and forgotten by the Mahanta. They
                    > > see
                    > > > others who are seemingly less deserving receiving initiations,
                    > > > whereas they, despite being very devoted to Eckankar and the
                    > > > associated disciplines, seem to fall hopelessly behind. Due to
                    > > > Eckankar's policy that one not ever request initiations, many
                    > > suffer
                    > > > in silence, sensing justifiably that something isn't quite right,
                    > > yet
                    > > > fear to even ask about the possibility of an error. In many cases,
                    > > > even when they do ask, they face a stony silence from the org, or
                    > > are
                    > > > told they are being "tested" spiritually, when all that is needed
                    > > is
                    > > > a quick check of the record. This is one of the way's such a system
                    > > > can inflict undue pain upon its members, and is one reason I am
                    > > > taking the time to write about this in detail.
                    > > >
                    > > > Think about the numbers involved in the initiation approval
                    > > process.
                    > > > If there are, as claimed, 50,000 members in the org, and each is
                    > > > considered for an initiation every five years or so, then that
                    > > would
                    > > > average 10,000 per year, or 833 per month, or about 40 per day
                    > > > (excluding weekends), or about one initiation to be approved every
                    > > 10
                    > > > to 15 minutes in an average eight hour day. Klemp would have to
                    > > work
                    > > > full time on initiations every day for the rest of his life to
                    > > spend
                    > > > 10 to 15 minutes every five years on the "individual" member (do
                    > > the
                    > > > math and see for yourself). Klemp has said that he checks the inner
                    > > > akashic and soul records to make such a choice. Remember that this
                    > > > would have to be done to merely consider a person for initiation,
                    > > > that is, to give each chela the individual attention and
                    > > > consideration that is due, whether or not the chela is actually
                    > > > approved for initiation.
                    > > >
                    > > > Klemp would have to live out of the body most of his life to
                    > > > accomplish such a feat. He would have no time for seminars, writing
                    > > > his constant supply of books, writing his speeches, eating,
                    > > drinking,
                    > > > sleeping, going to meetings, running the corporation, etc. For
                    > > those
                    > > > who argue that such reading of soul records does not take time,
                    > > > consider that Klemp has discontinued private requests for
                    > > > consultations to do soul readings because, according to him, it
                    > > takes
                    > > > hours to accomplish an accurate reading of the soul records of just
                    > > > one person. Thus, a mere fifteen minutes would not be sufficient to
                    > > > approve an initiation, even if he did spend all day, every day of
                    > > his
                    > > > life approving initiations. Think about this!
                    > > >
                    > > > From this it can be deduced that Klemp has, for the most part,
                    > > > nothing to do with the initiations, other than, perhaps, performing
                    > > a
                    > > > perfunctory blessing of them in the eckankar offices to fool the
                    > > > membership. He simply doesn't have the time.
                    > > >
                    > > > Remember this key point: It's a fact that someone would have to act
                    > > > on the physical plane to approve the initiations and physically
                    > > send
                    > > > out pink slips. No matter how you slice it, this person (or more
                    > > > likely, persons) is not the Living Eck Master, but rather, several
                    > > > paid employees.
                    > > >
                    > > > Some people argue that the true initiations are "inner," and
                    > > > therefore the outer initiations are not the true initiations. The
                    > > > fallacy in the logic of this argument is that Twitchell originally
                    > > > stated that the inner initiation comes before the outer, due to the
                    > > > principle of "as above, so below," which means that outer events
                    > > > occur on the inner first, manifesting outwardly later. Klemp has
                    > > > attempted to confuse people by reversing this, claiming that it
                    > > takes
                    > > > time to grow into an initiation. But here Klemp contradicts
                    > > himself,
                    > > > since Klemp has expressly stated in writing that he personally
                    > > > approves the outer initiations by reading the inner soul records.
                    > > > This means the person receiving the outer initiation would have,
                    > > > according to Klemp's own written statements, already have the inner
                    > > > preparation, and thus would have received the inner initiation. It
                    > > is
                    > > > absurd to conclude that Klemp, in taking time to read the soul
                    > > > records to approve the outer initiation, would not include as part
                    > > of
                    > > > that time and effort the giving of the actual inner initiation, if
                    > > > after having read the soul records it was determined the chela was
                    > > > eligible for the initiation. Thus, the logic that the inner and
                    > > outer
                    > > > initiations are separate and not inextricably linked is denied in
                    > > > statements by Eckankar's only presumed authority, the Living Eck
                    > > > Master, Harold Klemp. And the obvious fact is, Klemp would not have
                    > > > the requisite time that he has stated is necessary to read so many
                    > > > soul records each day of his life. He has been caught up in his own
                    > > > contradictory statements and revealed himself to be a fraud.
                    > > >
                    > > > Thus, the initiations are entirely bogus. They represent nothing
                    > > more
                    > > > than organizational status. Observe the behavior of the online
                    > > > clergy. These are not enlightened beings. They are ordinary people
                    > > > caught up in the throes of everyday life, like most people are in
                    > > the
                    > > > rest of the world.
                    > > >
                    > > > Kent
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • ctecvie
                    I know an ex-eckist who found David Lane and left the teachings silently. He began to translate David Lane s book into German and then the pink slip for his
                    Message 9 of 11 , Feb 6, 2007
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                      I know an ex-eckist who found David Lane and left the teachings
                      silently. He began to translate David Lane's book into German and
                      then the pink slip for his next initiation arrived.

                      Perhaps the all-knowing mahanta thought this accomplishment was worth
                      a reward! LOL!

                      Ingrid

                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                      <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > The arbitrary way in which the ECK Initiations come to
                      > ECKists proves that there is no inner communication
                      > with their Master. There is no equality of consciousness
                      > within the same Circle of Initiation! It's not even close!
                      > Therefore, how can there be any truth in the words:
                      > 'I am always with you.' It's a lie that innocent people
                      > have willingly bought into because they want and need
                      > to believe in the lie of religion. And, the Eckankar religion
                      > may be different and unique and give more answers when
                      > compared to most other religions, but that doesn't mean
                      > it's all true. Except for the LEM/Mahanta, the Initiations,
                      > and the ECK Masters much of what Twitchell "compiled"
                      > has some merit for Soul's individual investigation/journey.
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                      >
                      >
                      > pretujari wrote:
                      > > >
                      >
                      > Hello,
                      > This reminds me of two scenerios regarding the initiations. One was
                      > to do with a couple. The husband was really perplexed when the pink
                      > slip came for him and the wife for their 4th. According to the man,
                      > he never understood why his wife also received the 4th because she
                      > was quarrellsome, never practiced her spiritual exercises, nor had
                      > much time for Eckankar.He told me this when I explained the truth
                      > about the eckankar initiations to him.
                      > >
                      >
                      > The other was an elderly woman who was very close to me.
                      > She confided in me amidst tears that she had stayed in the
                      > 3rd initiation for years. As she cried while narrating this, she
                      > wondered why and what she had done, since others who came
                      > after her had bypassed her in initiations. Unfortunately, she
                      > did not live long enough to know the truth. Am sure all has been
                      > made clear to her on the other side.
                      > Pretujari.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      **********************************************************************
                      *
                      > >
                      > Pretujari, this story about the elderly woman demonstrates why
                      > eckankar is not a benign cult! It is really sad that she was so
                      > tormented about making those initiation levels up until her time
                      > of passing! Shame on Klemp and his fraudulent org for sucking
                      > the life out of innocent Souls who just want to achieve a sincere
                      > connection with God! I feel both sad and angry to think of this
                      > woman's sorrow--it's not a good way to live one's life feeling
                      passed
                      > over like that!
                      > >
                      > Klemp will ultimately pay for his lies and deceptions! He talks
                      about
                      > fear so I have to wonder if he doesn't suffer from real fears in
                      > knowing that he has been committing these great spiritual crimes?
                      > >
                      > Eckankar is not harmless in that it does damage Souls.
                      > >
                      > Mish
                      >
                      > >
                      **********************************************************************
                      ****
                      > tianyue wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > Ex-Initiator's Guide to Initiations
                      > > > >
                      > [I've posted an earlier version of this before, and with the
                      > discussion of secret words that has been ongoing on another group,
                      > I thought this might be a good time to repost this. I've revised
                      > this, and added rebuttles to comments Eckists have made to the
                      original.-
                      > K.A.]
                      >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > When I received the sixth initiation, I had essentially
                      already
                      > > > > decided to leave Eckankar. I was still hanging on out of some
                      > > > slight
                      > > > > uncertainty, and also had decided to maintain my membership
                      due to
                      > > > > the fact that my partner, Lisa, still remained loyal to
                      Eckankar. A
                      > > > > year or two had passed while I was in this state of serious
                      doubt
                      > > > and
                      > > > > skepticism, when the pink slip for the sixth initiation came.
                      I was
                      > > > > surprised to say the least. Yet I wasn't too surprised. This
                      > > > > confirmed what I already suspected: Initiations are not
                      overseen or
                      > > > > approved by a Mahanta or some omniscient being, but by a
                      computer,
                      > > > > with the assistance of initiate reports, and recommendations
                      by the
                      > > > > local Resa and other local High Initiates. I remained in
                      Eckankar
                      > > > for
                      > > > > years after this, until the day my mate felt as I did, and we
                      both
                      > > > > resigned.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Lest there are those in Eckankar who don't yet know this,
                      lists are
                      > > > > periodically sent out with names generated by a computer to
                      the
                      > > > state
                      > > > > Resa (Regional Eck Spiritual Aid), who confers with local
                      High
                      > > > > Initiates to either recommend or not, an initiation (Klemp
                      himself
                      > > > > wrote of the computers producing the initiation lists a while
                      back
                      > > > as
                      > > > > I recall). Around the time I left Eckankar, most Eckists were
                      > > > > automatically placed on the list every four or five years or
                      so. If
                      > > > > for some reason an Eckist was denied, they would usually show
                      up
                      > > > > again on the next year's list. Local H.I.'s in my area
                      (including
                      > > > > myself) would routinely talk over the names on the list via
                      the
                      > > > > telephone, and give their recommendations to the Resa
                      according to
                      > > > > each chela's loyalty and degree of outer service to the org.
                      Those
                      > > > > who were especially "troublesome" could be denied the
                      initiation.
                      > > > The
                      > > > > Resa emphasized loyalty as the most important trait. The
                      results
                      > > > from
                      > > > > the Resa are sent back to Minneapolis HQ where assistants
                      appointed
                      > > > > by Harold approve or deny the initiation based on such things
                      as
                      > > > the
                      > > > > time served as a dues paying member, the Resa
                      recommendations, and
                      > > > > initiate reports. Some, including myself, have observed that
                      > > > initiate
                      > > > > reports (especially those which are positive or are written
                      in
                      > > > praise
                      > > > > of the org) definitely can play a role in the initiation
                      approval
                      > > > > process.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Despite this, few people were denied an initiation if they
                      were on
                      > > > > the list. Eckankar has a very liberal policy toward
                      initiations. I
                      > > > > noticed that those who followed the disciplines well fared no
                      > > > better
                      > > > > or worse than those who didn't. I noticed people who smoked,
                      drank
                      > > > or
                      > > > > never did their exercises stood just as great a chance of
                      receiving
                      > > > > the fifth initiation as anyone <G>. More than anything, the
                      > > > > initiations were awarded based on time as a member. The rate
                      at
                      > > > which
                      > > > > initiations were received could be accelerated or delayed
                      based on
                      > > > > the chelas relationship with local H.I.'s and, especially,
                      the
                      > > > state
                      > > > > Resa, who has a great deal of influence in such matters.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > And one other thing is clear: Those who do not substantially
                      > > > conform
                      > > > > to the expectations of the group are the ones most likely to
                      be
                      > > > > denied an initiation. Despite this, the H.I.'s or Resa's in
                      > > > different
                      > > > > areas may vary in their tolerance levels, which accounts for
                      the
                      > > > > stories heard about individuals who never received
                      initiations in
                      > > > one
                      > > > > locale suddenly begin to receive them after moving to another
                      area.
                      > > > > Also, I've witnessed initiations being approved after three
                      or four
                      > > > > H.I's gave their unsolicited recommendations to Spiritual
                      Services
                      > > > on
                      > > > > behalf of certain chelas who were thought of as exceptionally
                      > > > > deserving.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I once had a friend who was extremely devoted to Eckankar,
                      who had
                      > > > > lived in a remote area during most of her time as a member,
                      and
                      > > > > didn't realize Eckankar's policy that time served as a dues
                      paying
                      > > > > member counted toward initiation. As a result, she didn't
                      receive
                      > > > > initiations for years do to the fact that she kept forgetting
                      to
                      > > > > renew her membership, thinking such things to be of the
                      material
                      > > > > worlds! She had no idea such trivialities mattered to the
                      > > > omniscient
                      > > > > Mahanta! This woman had a life membership (at one time you
                      could
                      > > > pay
                      > > > > a large one time fee, $2,000, for a membership for life) but
                      was
                      > > > > still required to notify Eckankar of her intent to renew
                      annually,
                      > > > > though no additional fee was required. She didn't think such
                      > > > > formalities were all that important, and as a result, due to
                      a less
                      > > > > than exemplary membership record, received no initiations
                      beyond
                      > > > the
                      > > > > second, despite years of devotion to Eckankar. One often may
                      hear
                      > > > > Eckists parroting that such outer initiations matter little,
                      yet
                      > > > > privately, most Eckists seem to feel very strongly about the
                      > > > > initiations they are awarded.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > This isn't spoken of very much out in the open in Eckankar,
                      but
                      > > > > people such as the woman in the example can become quite
                      > > > > disillusioned and depressed over not keeping up with their
                      peers,
                      > > > > feeling left behind, unwanted, and forgotten by the Mahanta.
                      They
                      > > > see
                      > > > > others who are seemingly less deserving receiving
                      initiations,
                      > > > > whereas they, despite being very devoted to Eckankar and the
                      > > > > associated disciplines, seem to fall hopelessly behind. Due
                      to
                      > > > > Eckankar's policy that one not ever request initiations, many
                      > > > suffer
                      > > > > in silence, sensing justifiably that something isn't quite
                      right,
                      > > > yet
                      > > > > fear to even ask about the possibility of an error. In many
                      cases,
                      > > > > even when they do ask, they face a stony silence from the
                      org, or
                      > > > are
                      > > > > told they are being "tested" spiritually, when all that is
                      needed
                      > > > is
                      > > > > a quick check of the record. This is one of the way's such a
                      system
                      > > > > can inflict undue pain upon its members, and is one reason I
                      am
                      > > > > taking the time to write about this in detail.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Think about the numbers involved in the initiation approval
                      > > > process.
                      > > > > If there are, as claimed, 50,000 members in the org, and each
                      is
                      > > > > considered for an initiation every five years or so, then
                      that
                      > > > would
                      > > > > average 10,000 per year, or 833 per month, or about 40 per
                      day
                      > > > > (excluding weekends), or about one initiation to be approved
                      every
                      > > > 10
                      > > > > to 15 minutes in an average eight hour day. Klemp would have
                      to
                      > > > work
                      > > > > full time on initiations every day for the rest of his life
                      to
                      > > > spend
                      > > > > 10 to 15 minutes every five years on the "individual" member
                      (do
                      > > > the
                      > > > > math and see for yourself). Klemp has said that he checks the
                      inner
                      > > > > akashic and soul records to make such a choice. Remember that
                      this
                      > > > > would have to be done to merely consider a person for
                      initiation,
                      > > > > that is, to give each chela the individual attention and
                      > > > > consideration that is due, whether or not the chela is
                      actually
                      > > > > approved for initiation.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Klemp would have to live out of the body most of his life to
                      > > > > accomplish such a feat. He would have no time for seminars,
                      writing
                      > > > > his constant supply of books, writing his speeches, eating,
                      > > > drinking,
                      > > > > sleeping, going to meetings, running the corporation, etc.
                      For
                      > > > those
                      > > > > who argue that such reading of soul records does not take
                      time,
                      > > > > consider that Klemp has discontinued private requests for
                      > > > > consultations to do soul readings because, according to him,
                      it
                      > > > takes
                      > > > > hours to accomplish an accurate reading of the soul records
                      of just
                      > > > > one person. Thus, a mere fifteen minutes would not be
                      sufficient to
                      > > > > approve an initiation, even if he did spend all day, every
                      day of
                      > > > his
                      > > > > life approving initiations. Think about this!
                      > > > >
                      > > > > From this it can be deduced that Klemp has, for the most
                      part,
                      > > > > nothing to do with the initiations, other than, perhaps,
                      performing
                      > > > a
                      > > > > perfunctory blessing of them in the eckankar offices to fool
                      the
                      > > > > membership. He simply doesn't have the time.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Remember this key point: It's a fact that someone would have
                      to act
                      > > > > on the physical plane to approve the initiations and
                      physically
                      > > > send
                      > > > > out pink slips. No matter how you slice it, this person (or
                      more
                      > > > > likely, persons) is not the Living Eck Master, but rather,
                      several
                      > > > > paid employees.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Some people argue that the true initiations are "inner," and
                      > > > > therefore the outer initiations are not the true initiations.
                      The
                      > > > > fallacy in the logic of this argument is that Twitchell
                      originally
                      > > > > stated that the inner initiation comes before the outer, due
                      to the
                      > > > > principle of "as above, so below," which means that outer
                      events
                      > > > > occur on the inner first, manifesting outwardly later. Klemp
                      has
                      > > > > attempted to confuse people by reversing this, claiming that
                      it
                      > > > takes
                      > > > > time to grow into an initiation. But here Klemp contradicts
                      > > > himself,
                      > > > > since Klemp has expressly stated in writing that he
                      personally
                      > > > > approves the outer initiations by reading the inner soul
                      records.
                      > > > > This means the person receiving the outer initiation would
                      have,
                      > > > > according to Klemp's own written statements, already have the
                      inner
                      > > > > preparation, and thus would have received the inner
                      initiation. It
                      > > > is
                      > > > > absurd to conclude that Klemp, in taking time to read the
                      soul
                      > > > > records to approve the outer initiation, would not include as
                      part
                      > > > of
                      > > > > that time and effort the giving of the actual inner
                      initiation, if
                      > > > > after having read the soul records it was determined the
                      chela was
                      > > > > eligible for the initiation. Thus, the logic that the inner
                      and
                      > > > outer
                      > > > > initiations are separate and not inextricably linked is
                      denied in
                      > > > > statements by Eckankar's only presumed authority, the Living
                      Eck
                      > > > > Master, Harold Klemp. And the obvious fact is, Klemp would
                      not have
                      > > > > the requisite time that he has stated is necessary to read so
                      many
                      > > > > soul records each day of his life. He has been caught up in
                      his own
                      > > > > contradictory statements and revealed himself to be a fraud.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Thus, the initiations are entirely bogus. They represent
                      nothing
                      > > > more
                      > > > > than organizational status. Observe the behavior of the
                      online
                      > > > > clergy. These are not enlightened beings. They are ordinary
                      people
                      > > > > caught up in the throes of everyday life, like most people
                      are in
                      > > > the
                      > > > > rest of the world.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Kent
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • prometheus_973
                      Hi Ingrid, The ECK Initiations along with all of the other inner teachings and dogma of ECKANKAR are just PRETEND! Klemp has stated: Acting AS IF is a
                      Message 10 of 11 , Feb 7, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi Ingrid,
                        The ECK Initiations along with all of the other "inner"
                        teachings and dogma of ECKANKAR are just PRETEND!
                        Klemp has stated: "Acting 'AS IF' is a principle of ECK.
                        You establish a goal, then ACT AS IF the WISH is fulfilled
                        and the DREAM completed. In this way you CREATE your
                        OWN world." H.K. The Dream Master, pg. 81 [My caps]

                        It's no wonder that these gullible and spiritually immature
                        ECKists continue to accept an authority figure over them.
                        At the same time they fear taking on responsibility for their
                        own thoughts, words. feelings, actions, and reactions. They
                        need a fake Mahanta because they are weak and immature
                        Souls.

                        Prometheus

                        ctecvie wrote:
                        >
                        I know an ex-eckist who found David Lane and left the teachings
                        silently. He began to translate David Lane's book into German and
                        then the pink slip for his next initiation arrived.
                        >
                        Perhaps the all-knowing mahanta thought this accomplishment
                        was worth a reward! LOL!
                        >
                        Ingrid
                        >
                        prometheus wrote:
                        > >
                        The arbitrary way in which the ECK Initiations come to
                        ECKists proves that there is no inner communication
                        with their Master. There is no equality of consciousness
                        within the same Circle of Initiation! It's not even close!
                        Therefore, how can there be any truth in the words:
                        'I am always with you.' It's a lie that innocent people
                        have willingly bought into because they want and need
                        to believe in the lie of religion. And, the Eckankar religion
                        may be different and unique and give more answers when
                        compared to most other religions, but that doesn't mean
                        it's all true. Except for the LEM/Mahanta, the Initiations,
                        and the ECK Masters much of what Twitchell "compiled"
                        has some merit for Soul's individual investigation/journey.
                        > >
                        Prometheus
                        > >
                        > >
                        pretujari wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > >
                        Hello,
                        This reminds me of two scenerios regarding the initiations. One was
                        to do with a couple. The husband was really perplexed when the pink
                        slip came for him and the wife for their 4th. According to the man,
                        he never understood why his wife also received the 4th because she
                        was quarrellsome, never practiced her spiritual exercises, nor had
                        much time for Eckankar.He told me this when I explained the truth
                        about the eckankar initiations to him.
                        > > >
                        The other was an elderly woman who was very close to me.
                        She confided in me amidst tears that she had stayed in the
                        3rd initiation for years. As she cried while narrating this, she
                        wondered why and what she had done, since others who came
                        after her had bypassed her in initiations. Unfortunately, she
                        did not live long enough to know the truth. Am sure all has been
                        made clear to her on the other side.
                        Pretujari.
                        **********************************************************************

                        > > >
                        Pretujari, this story about the elderly woman demonstrates why
                        eckankar is not a benign cult! It is really sad that she was so
                        tormented about making those initiation levels up until her time
                        of passing! Shame on Klemp and his fraudulent org for sucking
                        the life out of innocent Souls who just want to achieve a sincere
                        connection with God! I feel both sad and angry to think of this
                        woman's sorrow--it's not a good way to live one's life feeling
                        passed over like that!
                        > > >
                        Klemp will ultimately pay for his lies and deceptions! He talks
                        about fear so I have to wonder if he doesn't suffer from real fears
                        in knowing that he has been committing these great spiritual
                        crimes?
                        > > >
                        Eckankar is not harmless in that it does damage Souls.
                        > > >
                        Mish


                        **************************************************************

                        tianyue wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        Ex-Initiator's Guide to Initiations
                        > > > > >
                        [I've posted an earlier version of this before, and with the
                        discussion of secret words that has been ongoing on another group,
                        I thought this might be a good time to repost this. I've revised
                        this, and added rebuttles to comments Eckists have made to the
                        original.-
                        K.A.]
                        > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        When I received the sixth initiation, I had essentially
                        already decided to leave Eckankar. I was still hanging on out
                        of some slight uncertainty, and also had decided to maintain
                        my membership due to the fact that my partner, Lisa, still
                        remained loyal to Eckankar. A year or two had passed while
                        I was in this state of serious doubt and skepticism, when the
                        pink slip for the sixth initiation came. I was surprised to say
                        the least. Yet I wasn't too surprised. This confirmed what I
                        already suspected: Initiations are not overseen or approved
                        by a Mahanta or some omniscient being, but by a computer,
                        with the assistance of initiate reports, and recommendations
                        by the local Resa and other local High Initiates. I remained in
                        Eckankar for years after this, until the day my mate felt as I did,
                        and we both resigned.

                        Lest there are those in Eckankar who don't yet know this,
                        lists are periodically sent out with names generated by a
                        computer to the state Resa (Regional Eck Spiritual Aid),
                        who confers with local High Initiates to either recommend
                        or not, an initiation (Klemp himself wrote of the computers
                        producing the initiation lists a while back as I recall).
                        [snip]
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