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Ex-Initiator's Guide to Eck Initiations

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  • tomleafeater
    Ex-Initiator s Guide to Initiations [I ve posted an earlier version of this before, and with the discussion of secret words that has been ongoing on another
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 2, 2007
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      Ex-Initiator's Guide to Initiations

      [I've posted an earlier version of this before, and with the
      discussion of secret words that has been ongoing on another group, I
      thought this might be a good time to repost this. I've revised this,
      and added rebuttles to comments Eckists have made to the original.-
      K.A.]



      When I received the sixth initiation, I had essentially already
      decided to leave Eckankar. I was still hanging on out of some slight
      uncertainty, and also had decided to maintain my membership due to
      the fact that my partner, Lisa, still remained loyal to Eckankar. A
      year or two had passed while I was in this state of serious doubt and
      skepticism, when the pink slip for the sixth initiation came. I was
      surprised to say the least. Yet I wasn't too surprised. This
      confirmed what I already suspected: Initiations are not overseen or
      approved by a Mahanta or some omniscient being, but by a computer,
      with the assistance of initiate reports, and recommendations by the
      local Resa and other local High Initiates. I remained in Eckankar for
      years after this, until the day my mate felt as I did, and we both
      resigned.

      Lest there are those in Eckankar who don't yet know this, lists are
      periodically sent out with names generated by a computer to the state
      Resa (Regional Eck Spiritual Aid), who confers with local High
      Initiates to either recommend or not, an initiation (Klemp himself
      wrote of the computers producing the initiation lists a while back as
      I recall). Around the time I left Eckankar, most Eckists were
      automatically placed on the list every four or five years or so. If
      for some reason an Eckist was denied, they would usually show up
      again on the next year's list. Local H.I.'s in my area (including
      myself) would routinely talk over the names on the list via the
      telephone, and give their recommendations to the Resa according to
      each chela's loyalty and degree of outer service to the org. Those
      who were especially "troublesome" could be denied the initiation. The
      Resa emphasized loyalty as the most important trait. The results from
      the Resa are sent back to Minneapolis HQ where assistants appointed
      by Harold approve or deny the initiation based on such things as the
      time served as a dues paying member, the Resa recommendations, and
      initiate reports. Some, including myself, have observed that initiate
      reports (especially those which are positive or are written in praise
      of the org) definitely can play a role in the initiation approval
      process.

      Despite this, few people were denied an initiation if they were on
      the list. Eckankar has a very liberal policy toward initiations. I
      noticed that those who followed the disciplines well fared no better
      or worse than those who didn't. I noticed people who smoked, drank or
      never did their exercises stood just as great a chance of receiving
      the fifth initiation as anyone <G>. More than anything, the
      initiations were awarded based on time as a member. The rate at which
      initiations were received could be accelerated or delayed based on
      the chelas relationship with local H.I.'s and, especially, the state
      Resa, who has a great deal of influence in such matters.

      And one other thing is clear: Those who do not substantially conform
      to the expectations of the group are the ones most likely to be
      denied an initiation. Despite this, the H.I.'s or Resa's in different
      areas may vary in their tolerance levels, which accounts for the
      stories heard about individuals who never received initiations in one
      locale suddenly begin to receive them after moving to another area.
      Also, I've witnessed initiations being approved after three or four
      H.I's gave their unsolicited recommendations to Spiritual Services on
      behalf of certain chelas who were thought of as exceptionally
      deserving.

      I once had a friend who was extremely devoted to Eckankar, who had
      lived in a remote area during most of her time as a member, and
      didn't realize Eckankar's policy that time served as a dues paying
      member counted toward initiation. As a result, she didn't receive
      initiations for years do to the fact that she kept forgetting to
      renew her membership, thinking such things to be of the material
      worlds! She had no idea such trivialities mattered to the omniscient
      Mahanta! This woman had a life membership (at one time you could pay
      a large one time fee, $2,000, for a membership for life) but was
      still required to notify Eckankar of her intent to renew annually,
      though no additional fee was required. She didn't think such
      formalities were all that important, and as a result, due to a less
      than exemplary membership record, received no initiations beyond the
      second, despite years of devotion to Eckankar. One often may hear
      Eckists parroting that such outer initiations matter little, yet
      privately, most Eckists seem to feel very strongly about the
      initiations they are awarded.

      This isn't spoken of very much out in the open in Eckankar, but
      people such as the woman in the example can become quite
      disillusioned and depressed over not keeping up with their peers,
      feeling left behind, unwanted, and forgotten by the Mahanta. They see
      others who are seemingly less deserving receiving initiations,
      whereas they, despite being very devoted to Eckankar and the
      associated disciplines, seem to fall hopelessly behind. Due to
      Eckankar's policy that one not ever request initiations, many suffer
      in silence, sensing justifiably that something isn't quite right, yet
      fear to even ask about the possibility of an error. In many cases,
      even when they do ask, they face a stony silence from the org, or are
      told they are being "tested" spiritually, when all that is needed is
      a quick check of the record. This is one of the way's such a system
      can inflict undue pain upon its members, and is one reason I am
      taking the time to write about this in detail.

      Think about the numbers involved in the initiation approval process.
      If there are, as claimed, 50,000 members in the org, and each is
      considered for an initiation every five years or so, then that would
      average 10,000 per year, or 833 per month, or about 40 per day
      (excluding weekends), or about one initiation to be approved every 10
      to 15 minutes in an average eight hour day. Klemp would have to work
      full time on initiations every day for the rest of his life to spend
      10 to 15 minutes every five years on the "individual" member (do the
      math and see for yourself). Klemp has said that he checks the inner
      akashic and soul records to make such a choice. Remember that this
      would have to be done to merely consider a person for initiation,
      that is, to give each chela the individual attention and
      consideration that is due, whether or not the chela is actually
      approved for initiation.

      Klemp would have to live out of the body most of his life to
      accomplish such a feat. He would have no time for seminars, writing
      his constant supply of books, writing his speeches, eating, drinking,
      sleeping, going to meetings, running the corporation, etc. For those
      who argue that such reading of soul records does not take time,
      consider that Klemp has discontinued private requests for
      consultations to do soul readings because, according to him, it takes
      hours to accomplish an accurate reading of the soul records of just
      one person. Thus, a mere fifteen minutes would not be sufficient to
      approve an initiation, even if he did spend all day, every day of his
      life approving initiations. Think about this!

      From this it can be deduced that Klemp has, for the most part,
      nothing to do with the initiations, other than, perhaps, performing a
      perfunctory blessing of them in the eckankar offices to fool the
      membership. He simply doesn't have the time.

      Remember this key point: It's a fact that someone would have to act
      on the physical plane to approve the initiations and physically send
      out pink slips. No matter how you slice it, this person (or more
      likely, persons) is not the Living Eck Master, but rather, several
      paid employees.

      Some people argue that the true initiations are "inner," and
      therefore the outer initiations are not the true initiations. The
      fallacy in the logic of this argument is that Twitchell originally
      stated that the inner initiation comes before the outer, due to the
      principle of "as above, so below," which means that outer events
      occur on the inner first, manifesting outwardly later. Klemp has
      attempted to confuse people by reversing this, claiming that it takes
      time to grow into an initiation. But here Klemp contradicts himself,
      since Klemp has expressly stated in writing that he personally
      approves the outer initiations by reading the inner soul records.
      This means the person receiving the outer initiation would have,
      according to Klemp's own written statements, already have the inner
      preparation, and thus would have received the inner initiation. It is
      absurd to conclude that Klemp, in taking time to read the soul
      records to approve the outer initiation, would not include as part of
      that time and effort the giving of the actual inner initiation, if
      after having read the soul records it was determined the chela was
      eligible for the initiation. Thus, the logic that the inner and outer
      initiations are separate and not inextricably linked is denied in
      statements by Eckankar's only presumed authority, the Living Eck
      Master, Harold Klemp. And the obvious fact is, Klemp would not have
      the requisite time that he has stated is necessary to read so many
      soul records each day of his life. He has been caught up in his own
      contradictory statements and revealed himself to be a fraud.

      Thus, the initiations are entirely bogus. They represent nothing more
      than organizational status. Observe the behavior of the online
      clergy. These are not enlightened beings. They are ordinary people
      caught up in the throes of everyday life, like most people are in the
      rest of the world.

      Kent
    • prometheus_973
      Hi Kent, I agree, the ECK Initiations are bogus. It is strange how Klemp has stated that a Chela grows into their initiation years after receiving it on the
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 2, 2007
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        Hi Kent,
        I agree, the ECK Initiations are bogus. It is strange how
        Klemp has stated that a Chela grows "into" their initiation
        years after receiving it on the outer. Therefore, a 5th wouldn't
        know that they had completed the tests, lessons, etc. of the
        5th until they received the 6th! Yet, in the Masters 4 Discourse,
        Lesson 2 on The Ninth Initiation, HK states that the Initiation
        is NOT completed until the third and final stage of confirmation
        is given on the outer. Thus, there are two "inner" stages and
        one "outer" stage for the 9th initiation.

        Maybe HK's other explanation came about when Gross was
        kicked to the curb, but sent out 500 Higher Initiations before
        he left! HK said these chelas weren't supposed to get promoted,
        but would work with them (on the inner) to bring them up to
        speed or up to that level of delusion. Still, it doesn't explain
        why people skipped initiations or only served a few months in
        one before receiving the next one! Klemp never addressed that
        issue since he too benefited and experienced that same thing via
        DG.

        One would think that one explanation should apply to all, but
        Klemp changes things as he sees fit because he can! It's a
        tough job to keep his and Paul's nonsense sorted out. Then
        again, keeping ECKists off balance and confused is part
        of the plan. If people can accept all sorts and all amounts of
        crap via blind faith and imagination then why be concerned?
        Besides, ECKists see it as a test... or a paradox... or as just
        Lower World Mental expressions that are limiting. The "inner"
        is the only true reality for them... right? I always found it
        interesting how PT would give people a heads up to truth
        on occasion. It's like a thief telling you not to forget to lock
        your doors. Now wouldn't you assume a guy like that was
        to be trusted?

        Here's a supposed quote from Shamus-i-Tabriz from a
        clela's dream: "Little do we realize how our expectations
        shape our experiences and reality." [pg. 88, TWEM]

        Now, if only ECKists could see the truth of that statement!

        Prometheus



        Kent wrote:
        >
        > Ex-Initiator's Guide to Initiations
        >
        > [I've posted an earlier version of this before, and with the
        > discussion of secret words that has been ongoing on another group, I
        > thought this might be a good time to repost this. I've revised this,
        > and added rebuttles to comments Eckists have made to the original.-
        > K.A.]
        >
        >
        >
        > When I received the sixth initiation, I had essentially already
        > decided to leave Eckankar. I was still hanging on out of some slight
        > uncertainty, and also had decided to maintain my membership due to
        > the fact that my partner, Lisa, still remained loyal to Eckankar. A
        > year or two had passed while I was in this state of serious doubt and
        > skepticism, when the pink slip for the sixth initiation came. I was
        > surprised to say the least. Yet I wasn't too surprised. This
        > confirmed what I already suspected: Initiations are not overseen or
        > approved by a Mahanta or some omniscient being, but by a computer,
        > with the assistance of initiate reports, and recommendations by the
        > local Resa and other local High Initiates. I remained in Eckankar for
        > years after this, until the day my mate felt as I did, and we both
        > resigned.
        >
        > Lest there are those in Eckankar who don't yet know this, lists are
        > periodically sent out with names generated by a computer to the state
        > Resa (Regional Eck Spiritual Aid), who confers with local High
        > Initiates to either recommend or not, an initiation (Klemp himself
        > wrote of the computers producing the initiation lists a while back as
        > I recall). Around the time I left Eckankar, most Eckists were
        > automatically placed on the list every four or five years or so. If
        > for some reason an Eckist was denied, they would usually show up
        > again on the next year's list. Local H.I.'s in my area (including
        > myself) would routinely talk over the names on the list via the
        > telephone, and give their recommendations to the Resa according to
        > each chela's loyalty and degree of outer service to the org. Those
        > who were especially "troublesome" could be denied the initiation. The
        > Resa emphasized loyalty as the most important trait. The results from
        > the Resa are sent back to Minneapolis HQ where assistants appointed
        > by Harold approve or deny the initiation based on such things as the
        > time served as a dues paying member, the Resa recommendations, and
        > initiate reports. Some, including myself, have observed that initiate
        > reports (especially those which are positive or are written in praise
        > of the org) definitely can play a role in the initiation approval
        > process.
        >
        > Despite this, few people were denied an initiation if they were on
        > the list. Eckankar has a very liberal policy toward initiations. I
        > noticed that those who followed the disciplines well fared no better
        > or worse than those who didn't. I noticed people who smoked, drank or
        > never did their exercises stood just as great a chance of receiving
        > the fifth initiation as anyone <G>. More than anything, the
        > initiations were awarded based on time as a member. The rate at which
        > initiations were received could be accelerated or delayed based on
        > the chelas relationship with local H.I.'s and, especially, the state
        > Resa, who has a great deal of influence in such matters.
        >
        > And one other thing is clear: Those who do not substantially conform
        > to the expectations of the group are the ones most likely to be
        > denied an initiation. Despite this, the H.I.'s or Resa's in different
        > areas may vary in their tolerance levels, which accounts for the
        > stories heard about individuals who never received initiations in one
        > locale suddenly begin to receive them after moving to another area.
        > Also, I've witnessed initiations being approved after three or four
        > H.I's gave their unsolicited recommendations to Spiritual Services on
        > behalf of certain chelas who were thought of as exceptionally
        > deserving.
        >
        > I once had a friend who was extremely devoted to Eckankar, who had
        > lived in a remote area during most of her time as a member, and
        > didn't realize Eckankar's policy that time served as a dues paying
        > member counted toward initiation. As a result, she didn't receive
        > initiations for years do to the fact that she kept forgetting to
        > renew her membership, thinking such things to be of the material
        > worlds! She had no idea such trivialities mattered to the omniscient
        > Mahanta! This woman had a life membership (at one time you could pay
        > a large one time fee, $2,000, for a membership for life) but was
        > still required to notify Eckankar of her intent to renew annually,
        > though no additional fee was required. She didn't think such
        > formalities were all that important, and as a result, due to a less
        > than exemplary membership record, received no initiations beyond the
        > second, despite years of devotion to Eckankar. One often may hear
        > Eckists parroting that such outer initiations matter little, yet
        > privately, most Eckists seem to feel very strongly about the
        > initiations they are awarded.
        >
        > This isn't spoken of very much out in the open in Eckankar, but
        > people such as the woman in the example can become quite
        > disillusioned and depressed over not keeping up with their peers,
        > feeling left behind, unwanted, and forgotten by the Mahanta. They see
        > others who are seemingly less deserving receiving initiations,
        > whereas they, despite being very devoted to Eckankar and the
        > associated disciplines, seem to fall hopelessly behind. Due to
        > Eckankar's policy that one not ever request initiations, many suffer
        > in silence, sensing justifiably that something isn't quite right, yet
        > fear to even ask about the possibility of an error. In many cases,
        > even when they do ask, they face a stony silence from the org, or are
        > told they are being "tested" spiritually, when all that is needed is
        > a quick check of the record. This is one of the way's such a system
        > can inflict undue pain upon its members, and is one reason I am
        > taking the time to write about this in detail.
        >
        > Think about the numbers involved in the initiation approval process.
        > If there are, as claimed, 50,000 members in the org, and each is
        > considered for an initiation every five years or so, then that would
        > average 10,000 per year, or 833 per month, or about 40 per day
        > (excluding weekends), or about one initiation to be approved every 10
        > to 15 minutes in an average eight hour day. Klemp would have to work
        > full time on initiations every day for the rest of his life to spend
        > 10 to 15 minutes every five years on the "individual" member (do the
        > math and see for yourself). Klemp has said that he checks the inner
        > akashic and soul records to make such a choice. Remember that this
        > would have to be done to merely consider a person for initiation,
        > that is, to give each chela the individual attention and
        > consideration that is due, whether or not the chela is actually
        > approved for initiation.
        >
        > Klemp would have to live out of the body most of his life to
        > accomplish such a feat. He would have no time for seminars, writing
        > his constant supply of books, writing his speeches, eating, drinking,
        > sleeping, going to meetings, running the corporation, etc. For those
        > who argue that such reading of soul records does not take time,
        > consider that Klemp has discontinued private requests for
        > consultations to do soul readings because, according to him, it takes
        > hours to accomplish an accurate reading of the soul records of just
        > one person. Thus, a mere fifteen minutes would not be sufficient to
        > approve an initiation, even if he did spend all day, every day of his
        > life approving initiations. Think about this!
        >
        > From this it can be deduced that Klemp has, for the most part,
        > nothing to do with the initiations, other than, perhaps, performing a
        > perfunctory blessing of them in the eckankar offices to fool the
        > membership. He simply doesn't have the time.
        >
        > Remember this key point: It's a fact that someone would have to act
        > on the physical plane to approve the initiations and physically send
        > out pink slips. No matter how you slice it, this person (or more
        > likely, persons) is not the Living Eck Master, but rather, several
        > paid employees.
        >
        > Some people argue that the true initiations are "inner," and
        > therefore the outer initiations are not the true initiations. The
        > fallacy in the logic of this argument is that Twitchell originally
        > stated that the inner initiation comes before the outer, due to the
        > principle of "as above, so below," which means that outer events
        > occur on the inner first, manifesting outwardly later. Klemp has
        > attempted to confuse people by reversing this, claiming that it takes
        > time to grow into an initiation. But here Klemp contradicts himself,
        > since Klemp has expressly stated in writing that he personally
        > approves the outer initiations by reading the inner soul records.
        > This means the person receiving the outer initiation would have,
        > according to Klemp's own written statements, already have the inner
        > preparation, and thus would have received the inner initiation. It is
        > absurd to conclude that Klemp, in taking time to read the soul
        > records to approve the outer initiation, would not include as part of
        > that time and effort the giving of the actual inner initiation, if
        > after having read the soul records it was determined the chela was
        > eligible for the initiation. Thus, the logic that the inner and outer
        > initiations are separate and not inextricably linked is denied in
        > statements by Eckankar's only presumed authority, the Living Eck
        > Master, Harold Klemp. And the obvious fact is, Klemp would not have
        > the requisite time that he has stated is necessary to read so many
        > soul records each day of his life. He has been caught up in his own
        > contradictory statements and revealed himself to be a fraud.
        >
        > Thus, the initiations are entirely bogus. They represent nothing more
        > than organizational status. Observe the behavior of the online
        > clergy. These are not enlightened beings. They are ordinary people
        > caught up in the throes of everyday life, like most people are in the
        > rest of the world.
        >
        > Kent
        >
      • prometheus_973
        Hi All, I thought that I d bring this back for more comments. I noticed that some chelas who were put on the RESA s sh_t list were there for up to three years
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 3, 2007
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          Hi All,
          I thought that I'd bring this back for more comments.

          I noticed that some chelas who were put on the RESA's
          sh_t list were there for up to three years and, thus, had
          their initiations delayed for three years. Some of these
          RESAs are really into the three thing except, of course,
          when doing their "five year (business) plan!" The ESC
          just follows the lead of the RESAs and the RESAs follow
          the gossip and recommendations of their friends who
          are H.I.s.

          Also, at one time a life membership was $500, but this
          was early on and for just a brief time period when quick
          money was needed. However, just before DG was booted
          Darwin reinstated the lifetime membership donation
          for $1,000! DG took the money and ran while leaving HK
          holding the bag. However, I'm told, that HK still requires
          all of the lifetime members to renew each year or lose their
          lifetime memberships! I haven't heard about the $2,000
          lifetime memberships that Kent spoke of. Is that what
          they cost now? What a scam! Especially, if one has to still
          renew it each year or lose it!

          Anyway, it doesn't seem very "spiritual" does it? It's typical
          for HK to preach about one thing and do the opposite!

          I found these quotes in the Shariyat 2, Ch.2, Books 1&2:

          "There will be those who call themselves ECK Masters and
          disguise themselves under the robes of ECK, but they are
          prophets with false faces who are lying to take in the
          ECKists... in search of the material things of life: money,
          health, and physical happiness."

          So, it seems that Paul was, basically, and maybe unknowingly
          tying together some random insights to the future of ECKANKAR
          and to his succesors! The irony is that Paul was more of the
          Conman than the Godman and was, also, speaking of himself
          and his own limitations.

          Yes, the seeker will find "the pseudogurus scattered throughout
          the world... he will find false prophets and the so-called teachers
          ... the paradox is that pure consciousness is simultaneously both
          positive and negative... the light is darkness and darkness is light
          and sound... both are the qualities of the ECK."

          With this kind of circular logic I can see how Twitchell was able
          to justify his scam! Just make yourself into a indisputable "God"
          or authority figure (LEM/Mahanta) and recreate history and reality
          to suit your needs while attracting a following of needy, gullible,
          trusting, spiritual seekers who have always felt like or have been
          misfits in society, in orthodox religion, or within their own families.
          Sell spiritual liberation while creating an admirable vocation for
          yourself as Top Dog or as Top God!

          However, I must say that timing is everything. Perhaps this is also
          why ECKANKAR membership numbers are dropping, and why there
          is such a push to get the ECK Youth more brainwashed and to get
          the Vahana (Missionary) volunteer army into the field of action. HK
          is doing a "sell" of ECKANKAR and of himself that definitely goes
          beyond just getting the normal word of mouth "message" out.

          Prometheus




          prometheus wrote:
          >
          Hi Kent,
          I agree, the ECK Initiations are bogus. It is strange how
          Klemp has stated that a Chela grows "into" their initiation
          years after receiving it on the outer. Therefore, a 5th wouldn't
          know that they had completed the tests, lessons, etc. of the
          5th until they received the 6th! Yet, in the Masters 4 Discourse,
          Lesson 2 on The Ninth Initiation, HK states that the Initiation
          is NOT completed until the third and final stage of confirmation
          is given on the outer. Thus, there are two "inner" stages and
          one "outer" stage for the 9th initiation.
          >
          Maybe HK's other explanation came about when Gross was
          kicked to the curb, but sent out 500 Higher Initiations before
          he left! HK said these chelas weren't supposed to get promoted,
          but would work with them (on the inner) to bring them up to
          speed or up to that level of delusion. Still, it doesn't explain
          why people skipped initiations or only served a few months in
          one before receiving the next one! Klemp never addressed that
          issue since he too benefited and experienced that same thing via
          DG.
          >
          One would think that one explanation should apply to all, but
          Klemp changes things as he sees fit because he can! It's a
          tough job to keep his and Paul's nonsense sorted out. Then
          again, keeping ECKists off balance and confused is part
          of the plan. If people can accept all sorts and all amounts of
          crap via blind faith and imagination then why be concerned?
          Besides, ECKists see it as a test... or a paradox... or as just
          Lower World Mental expressions that are limiting. The "inner"
          is the only true reality for them... right? I always found it
          interesting how PT would give people a heads up to truth
          on occasion. It's like a thief telling you not to forget to lock
          your doors. Now wouldn't you assume a guy like that was
          to be trusted?
          >
          Here's a supposed quote from Shamus-i-Tabriz from a
          chela's dream: "Little do we realize how our expectations
          shape our experiences and reality." [pg. 88, TWEM]
          >
          Now, if only ECKists could see the truth of that statement!
          >
          Prometheus
          >
          Kent wrote:
          > >
          Ex-Initiator's Guide to Initiations
          > >
          [I've posted an earlier version of this before, and with the
          discussion of secret words that has been ongoing on another group, I
          thought this might be a good time to repost this. I've revised this,
          and added rebuttles to comments Eckists have made to the original.-
          K.A.]
          > >
          When I received the sixth initiation, I had essentially already
          decided to leave Eckankar. I was still hanging on out of some slight
          uncertainty, and also had decided to maintain my membership due to
          the fact that my partner, Lisa, still remained loyal to Eckankar. A
          year or two had passed while I was in this state of serious doubt and
          skepticism, when the pink slip for the sixth initiation came. I was
          surprised to say the least. Yet I wasn't too surprised. This
          confirmed what I already suspected: Initiations are not overseen or
          approved by a Mahanta or some omniscient being, but by a computer,
          with the assistance of initiate reports, and recommendations by the
          local Resa and other local High Initiates. I remained in Eckankar for
          years after this, until the day my mate felt as I did, and we both
          resigned.
          > >
          Lest there are those in Eckankar who don't yet know this, lists are
          periodically sent out with names generated by a computer to the state
          Resa (Regional Eck Spiritual Aid), who confers with local High
          Initiates to either recommend or not, an initiation (Klemp himself
          wrote of the computers producing the initiation lists a while back as
          I recall). Around the time I left Eckankar, most Eckists were
          automatically placed on the list every four or five years or so. If
          for some reason an Eckist was denied, they would usually show up
          again on the next year's list. Local H.I.'s in my area (including
          myself) would routinely talk over the names on the list via the
          telephone, and give their recommendations to the Resa according to
          each chela's loyalty and degree of outer service to the org. Those
          who were especially "troublesome" could be denied the initiation. The
          Resa emphasized loyalty as the most important trait. The results from
          the Resa are sent back to Minneapolis HQ where assistants appointed
          by Harold approve or deny the initiation based on such things as the
          time served as a dues paying member, the Resa recommendations, and
          initiate reports. Some, including myself, have observed that initiate
          reports (especially those which are positive or are written in praise
          of the org) definitely can play a role in the initiation approval
          process.
          > >
          Despite this, few people were denied an initiation if they were on
          the list. Eckankar has a very liberal policy toward initiations. I
          noticed that those who followed the disciplines well fared no better
          or worse than those who didn't. I noticed people who smoked, drank or
          never did their exercises stood just as great a chance of receiving
          the fifth initiation as anyone <G>. More than anything, the
          initiations were awarded based on time as a member. The rate at which
          initiations were received could be accelerated or delayed based on
          the chelas relationship with local H.I.'s and, especially, the state
          Resa, who has a great deal of influence in such matters.
          > >
          And one other thing is clear: Those who do not substantially conform
          to the expectations of the group are the ones most likely to be
          denied an initiation. Despite this, the H.I.'s or Resa's in different
          areas may vary in their tolerance levels, which accounts for the
          stories heard about individuals who never received initiations in one
          locale suddenly begin to receive them after moving to another area.
          Also, I've witnessed initiations being approved after three or four
          H.I's gave their unsolicited recommendations to Spiritual Services on
          behalf of certain chelas who were thought of as exceptionally
          deserving.
          > >
          I once had a friend who was extremely devoted to Eckankar, who had
          lived in a remote area during most of her time as a member, and
          didn't realize Eckankar's policy that time served as a dues paying
          member counted toward initiation. As a result, she didn't receive
          initiations for years do to the fact that she kept forgetting to
          renew her membership, thinking such things to be of the material
          worlds! She had no idea such trivialities mattered to the omniscient
          Mahanta! This woman had a life membership (at one time you could pay
          a large one time fee, $2,000, for a membership for life) but was
          still required to notify Eckankar of her intent to renew annually,
          though no additional fee was required. She didn't think such
          formalities were all that important, and as a result, due to a less
          than exemplary membership record, received no initiations beyond the
          second, despite years of devotion to Eckankar. One often may hear
          Eckists parroting that such outer initiations matter little, yet
          privately, most Eckists seem to feel very strongly about the
          initiations they are awarded.
          > >
          This isn't spoken of very much out in the open in Eckankar, but
          people such as the woman in the example can become quite
          disillusioned and depressed over not keeping up with their peers,
          feeling left behind, unwanted, and forgotten by the Mahanta. They see
          others who are seemingly less deserving receiving initiations,
          whereas they, despite being very devoted to Eckankar and the
          associated disciplines, seem to fall hopelessly behind. Due to
          Eckankar's policy that one not ever request initiations, many suffer
          in silence, sensing justifiably that something isn't quite right, yet
          fear to even ask about the possibility of an error. In many cases,
          even when they do ask, they face a stony silence from the org, or are
          told they are being "tested" spiritually, when all that is needed is
          a quick check of the record. This is one of the way's such a system
          can inflict undue pain upon its members, and is one reason I am
          taking the time to write about this in detail.
          > >
          Think about the numbers involved in the initiation approval process.
          If there are, as claimed, 50,000 members in the org, and each is
          considered for an initiation every five years or so, then that would
          average 10,000 per year, or 833 per month, or about 40 per day
          (excluding weekends), or about one initiation to be approved every 10
          to 15 minutes in an average eight hour day. Klemp would have to work
          full time on initiations every day for the rest of his life to spend
          10 to 15 minutes every five years on the "individual" member (do the
          math and see for yourself). Klemp has said that he checks the inner
          akashic and soul records to make such a choice. Remember that this
          would have to be done to merely consider a person for initiation,
          that is, to give each chela the individual attention and
          consideration that is due, whether or not the chela is actually
          approved for initiation.
          > >
          Klemp would have to live out of the body most of his life to
          accomplish such a feat. He would have no time for seminars, writing
          his constant supply of books, writing his speeches, eating, drinking,
          sleeping, going to meetings, running the corporation, etc. For those
          who argue that such reading of soul records does not take time,
          consider that Klemp has discontinued private requests for
          consultations to do soul readings because, according to him, it takes
          hours to accomplish an accurate reading of the soul records of just
          one person. Thus, a mere fifteen minutes would not be sufficient to
          approve an initiation, even if he did spend all day, every day of his
          life approving initiations. Think about this!
          > >
          From this it can be deduced that Klemp has, for the most part,
          nothing to do with the initiations, other than, perhaps, performing a
          perfunctory blessing of them in the eckankar offices to fool the
          membership. He simply doesn't have the time.
          > >
          Remember this key point: It's a fact that someone would have to act
          on the physical plane to approve the initiations and physically send
          out pink slips. No matter how you slice it, this person (or more
          likely, persons) is not the Living Eck Master, but rather, several
          paid employees.
          > >
          Some people argue that the true initiations are "inner," and
          therefore the outer initiations are not the true initiations. The
          fallacy in the logic of this argument is that Twitchell originally
          stated that the inner initiation comes before the outer, due to the
          principle of "as above, so below," which means that outer events
          occur on the inner first, manifesting outwardly later. Klemp has
          attempted to confuse people by reversing this, claiming that it takes
          time to grow into an initiation. But here Klemp contradicts himself,
          since Klemp has expressly stated in writing that he personally
          approves the outer initiations by reading the inner soul records.
          This means the person receiving the outer initiation would have,
          according to Klemp's own written statements, already have the inner
          preparation, and thus would have received the inner initiation. It is
          absurd to conclude that Klemp, in taking time to read the soul
          records to approve the outer initiation, would not include as part of
          that time and effort the giving of the actual inner initiation, if
          after having read the soul records it was determined the chela was
          eligible for the initiation. Thus, the logic that the inner and outer
          initiations are separate and not inextricably linked is denied in
          statements by Eckankar's only presumed authority, the Living Eck
          Master, Harold Klemp. And the obvious fact is, Klemp would not have
          the requisite time that he has stated is necessary to read so many
          soul records each day of his life. He has been caught up in his own
          contradictory statements and revealed himself to be a fraud.
          > >
          Thus, the initiations are entirely bogus. They represent nothing more
          than organizational status. Observe the behavior of the online
          clergy. These are not enlightened beings. They are ordinary people
          caught up in the throes of everyday life, like most people are in the
          rest of the world.
          > >
          Kent
        • tomleafeater
          The fee was indeed, 1,000 dollars (rather than 2,000), confirmed by none other than than my partner, Lisa, who actually had a life time membership. I d thought
          Message 4 of 11 , Feb 4, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            The fee was indeed, 1,000 dollars (rather than 2,000), confirmed
            by none other than than my partner, Lisa, who actually had a life
            time membership. I'd thought she told me she paid more than
            that.

            And of course, none of this changes the essential point I had
            made in the story, not having been the central point I was
            making. It wasn't the money that was at issue, though 1,000 is a
            lot of money to a teenager (how she raised the money is a story
            in itself), but rather, the issue was what her experience revealed
            to her about the initiation approval process and what it reveals
            about what the mahanta knows or doesn't know in approving
            initiations.

            Lisa was very young (late teens I think) and living in a remote
            area when she joined eckankar. There were no other members
            in her area. She bought a lifetime membership thinking that was
            probably what others were doing elsewhere. She wasn't clear on
            eckankar policy at her young age, and in the area in which she
            lived she was the only eckist, with no others to confer with, and
            so fell behind in registered years without truly understanding the
            consequences, and later, her friends in eckankar were all much
            farther ahead in initiations than she was, despite her many years
            of doing spiritual exercises and reading discourses.

            And of course, the varying positions of initiation status didn't
            reflect the indvidual "spiritual development " or years of true
            involvment with eckankar, but rather it reflected the computer
            print out of registered years of membership, despite the fact that
            her actual years of having a life membership were far more than
            others.

            Kent


            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
            "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi All,
            > I thought that I'd bring this back for more comments.
            >
            > I noticed that some chelas who were put on the RESA's
            > sh_t list were there for up to three years and, thus, had
            > their initiations delayed for three years. Some of these
            > RESAs are really into the three thing except, of course,
            > when doing their "five year (business) plan!" The ESC
            > just follows the lead of the RESAs and the RESAs follow
            > the gossip and recommendations of their friends who
            > are H.I.s.
            >
            > Also, at one time a life membership was $500, but this
            > was early on and for just a brief time period when quick
            > money was needed. However, just before DG was booted
            > Darwin reinstated the lifetime membership donation
            > for $1,000! DG took the money and ran while leaving HK
            > holding the bag. However, I'm told, that HK still requires
            > all of the lifetime members to renew each year or lose their
            > lifetime memberships! I haven't heard about the $2,000
            > lifetime memberships that Kent spoke of. Is that what
            > they cost now? What a scam! Especially, if one has to still
            > renew it each year or lose it!
            >
            > Anyway, it doesn't seem very "spiritual" does it? It's typical
            > for HK to preach about one thing and do the opposite!
            >
            > I found these quotes in the Shariyat 2, Ch.2, Books 1&2:
            >
            > "There will be those who call themselves ECK Masters and
            > disguise themselves under the robes of ECK, but they are
            > prophets with false faces who are lying to take in the
            > ECKists... in search of the material things of life: money,
            > health, and physical happiness."
            >
            > So, it seems that Paul was, basically, and maybe unknowingly
            > tying together some random insights to the future of
            ECKANKAR
            > and to his succesors! The irony is that Paul was more of the
            > Conman than the Godman and was, also, speaking of himself
            > and his own limitations.
            >
            > Yes, the seeker will find "the pseudogurus scattered
            throughout
            > the world... he will find false prophets and the so-called
            teachers
            > ... the paradox is that pure consciousness is simultaneously
            both
            > positive and negative... the light is darkness and darkness is
            light
            > and sound... both are the qualities of the ECK."
            >
            > With this kind of circular logic I can see how Twitchell was able
            > to justify his scam! Just make yourself into a indisputable
            "God"
            > or authority figure (LEM/Mahanta) and recreate history and
            reality
            > to suit your needs while attracting a following of needy, gullible,
            > trusting, spiritual seekers who have always felt like or have
            been
            > misfits in society, in orthodox religion, or within their own
            families.
            > Sell spiritual liberation while creating an admirable vocation for
            > yourself as Top Dog or as Top God!
            >
            > However, I must say that timing is everything. Perhaps this is
            also
            > why ECKANKAR membership numbers are dropping, and why
            there
            > is such a push to get the ECK Youth more brainwashed and to
            get
            > the Vahana (Missionary) volunteer army into the field of action.
            HK
            > is doing a "sell" of ECKANKAR and of himself that definitely
            goes
            > beyond just getting the normal word of mouth "message" out.
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > prometheus wrote:
            > >
            > Hi Kent,
            > I agree, the ECK Initiations are bogus. It is strange how
            > Klemp has stated that a Chela grows "into" their initiation
            > years after receiving it on the outer. Therefore, a 5th wouldn't
            > know that they had completed the tests, lessons, etc. of the
            > 5th until they received the 6th! Yet, in the Masters 4 Discourse,
            > Lesson 2 on The Ninth Initiation, HK states that the Initiation
            > is NOT completed until the third and final stage of confirmation
            > is given on the outer. Thus, there are two "inner" stages and
            > one "outer" stage for the 9th initiation.
            > >
            > Maybe HK's other explanation came about when Gross was
            > kicked to the curb, but sent out 500 Higher Initiations before
            > he left! HK said these chelas weren't supposed to get
            promoted,
            > but would work with them (on the inner) to bring them up to
            > speed or up to that level of delusion. Still, it doesn't explain
            > why people skipped initiations or only served a few months in
            > one before receiving the next one! Klemp never addressed that
            > issue since he too benefited and experienced that same thing
            via
            > DG.
            > >
            > One would think that one explanation should apply to all, but
            > Klemp changes things as he sees fit because he can! It's a
            > tough job to keep his and Paul's nonsense sorted out. Then
            > again, keeping ECKists off balance and confused is part
            > of the plan. If people can accept all sorts and all amounts of
            > crap via blind faith and imagination then why be concerned?
            > Besides, ECKists see it as a test... or a paradox... or as just
            > Lower World Mental expressions that are limiting. The "inner"
            > is the only true reality for them... right? I always found it
            > interesting how PT would give people a heads up to truth
            > on occasion. It's like a thief telling you not to forget to lock
            > your doors. Now wouldn't you assume a guy like that was
            > to be trusted?
            > >
            > Here's a supposed quote from Shamus-i-Tabriz from a
            > chela's dream: "Little do we realize how our expectations
            > shape our experiences and reality." [pg. 88, TWEM]
            > >
            > Now, if only ECKists could see the truth of that statement!
            > >
            > Prometheus
            > >
            > Kent wrote:
            > > >
            > Ex-Initiator's Guide to Initiations
            > > >
            > [I've posted an earlier version of this before, and with the
            > discussion of secret words that has been ongoing on another
            group, I
            > thought this might be a good time to repost this. I've revised
            this,
            > and added rebuttles to comments Eckists have made to the
            original.-
            > K.A.]
            > > >
            > When I received the sixth initiation, I had essentially already
            > decided to leave Eckankar. I was still hanging on out of some
            slight
            > uncertainty, and also had decided to maintain my membership
            due to
            > the fact that my partner, Lisa, still remained loyal to Eckankar. A
            > year or two had passed while I was in this state of serious
            doubt and
            > skepticism, when the pink slip for the sixth initiation came. I
            was
            > surprised to say the least. Yet I wasn't too surprised. This
            > confirmed what I already suspected: Initiations are not
            overseen or
            > approved by a Mahanta or some omniscient being, but by a
            computer,
            > with the assistance of initiate reports, and recommendations
            by the
            > local Resa and other local High Initiates. I remained in
            Eckankar for
            > years after this, until the day my mate felt as I did, and we both
            > resigned.
            > > >
            > Lest there are those in Eckankar who don't yet know this, lists
            are
            > periodically sent out with names generated by a computer to
            the state
            > Resa (Regional Eck Spiritual Aid), who confers with local High
            > Initiates to either recommend or not, an initiation (Klemp
            himself
            > wrote of the computers producing the initiation lists a while
            back as
            > I recall). Around the time I left Eckankar, most Eckists were
            > automatically placed on the list every four or five years or so. If
            > for some reason an Eckist was denied, they would usually
            show up
            > again on the next year's list. Local H.I.'s in my area (including
            > myself) would routinely talk over the names on the list via the
            > telephone, and give their recommendations to the Resa
            according to
            > each chela's loyalty and degree of outer service to the org.
            Those
            > who were especially "troublesome" could be denied the
            initiation. The
            > Resa emphasized loyalty as the most important trait. The
            results from
            > the Resa are sent back to Minneapolis HQ where assistants
            appointed
            > by Harold approve or deny the initiation based on such things
            as the
            > time served as a dues paying member, the Resa
            recommendations, and
            > initiate reports. Some, including myself, have observed that
            initiate
            > reports (especially those which are positive or are written in
            praise
            > of the org) definitely can play a role in the initiation approval
            > process.
            > > >
            > Despite this, few people were denied an initiation if they were
            on
            > the list. Eckankar has a very liberal policy toward initiations. I
            > noticed that those who followed the disciplines well fared no
            better
            > or worse than those who didn't. I noticed people who smoked,
            drank or
            > never did their exercises stood just as great a chance of
            receiving
            > the fifth initiation as anyone <G>. More than anything, the
            > initiations were awarded based on time as a member. The
            rate at which
            > initiations were received could be accelerated or delayed
            based on
            > the chelas relationship with local H.I.'s and, especially, the
            state
            > Resa, who has a great deal of influence in such matters.
            > > >
            > And one other thing is clear: Those who do not substantially
            conform
            > to the expectations of the group are the ones most likely to be
            > denied an initiation. Despite this, the H.I.'s or Resa's in
            different
            > areas may vary in their tolerance levels, which accounts for the
            > stories heard about individuals who never received initiations
            in one
            > locale suddenly begin to receive them after moving to another
            area.
            > Also, I've witnessed initiations being approved after three or
            four
            > H.I's gave their unsolicited recommendations to Spiritual
            Services on
            > behalf of certain chelas who were thought of as exceptionally
            > deserving.
            > > >
            > I once had a friend who was extremely devoted to Eckankar,
            who had
            > lived in a remote area during most of her time as a member,
            and
            > didn't realize Eckankar's policy that time served as a dues
            paying
            > member counted toward initiation. As a result, she didn't
            receive
            > initiations for years do to the fact that she kept forgetting to
            > renew her membership, thinking such things to be of the
            material
            > worlds! She had no idea such trivialities mattered to the
            omniscient
            > Mahanta! This woman had a life membership (at one time you
            could pay
            > a large one time fee, $2,000, for a membership for life) but was
            > still required to notify Eckankar of her intent to renew annually,
            > though no additional fee was required. She didn't think such
            > formalities were all that important, and as a result, due to a
            less
            > than exemplary membership record, received no initiations
            beyond the
            > second, despite years of devotion to Eckankar. One often may
            hear
            > Eckists parroting that such outer initiations matter little, yet
            > privately, most Eckists seem to feel very strongly about the
            > initiations they are awarded.
            > > >
            > This isn't spoken of very much out in the open in Eckankar, but
            > people such as the woman in the example can become quite
            > disillusioned and depressed over not keeping up with their
            peers,
            > feeling left behind, unwanted, and forgotten by the Mahanta.
            They see
            > others who are seemingly less deserving receiving initiations,
            > whereas they, despite being very devoted to Eckankar and the
            > associated disciplines, seem to fall hopelessly behind. Due to
            > Eckankar's policy that one not ever request initiations, many
            suffer
            > in silence, sensing justifiably that something isn't quite right,
            yet
            > fear to even ask about the possibility of an error. In many
            cases,
            > even when they do ask, they face a stony silence from the org,
            or are
            > told they are being "tested" spiritually, when all that is needed
            is
            > a quick check of the record. This is one of the way's such a
            system
            > can inflict undue pain upon its members, and is one reason I
            am
            > taking the time to write about this in detail.
            > > >
            > Think about the numbers involved in the initiation approval
            process.
            > If there are, as claimed, 50,000 members in the org, and each
            is
            > considered for an initiation every five years or so, then that
            would
            > average 10,000 per year, or 833 per month, or about 40 per day
            > (excluding weekends), or about one initiation to be approved
            every 10
            > to 15 minutes in an average eight hour day. Klemp would have
            to work
            > full time on initiations every day for the rest of his life to spend
            > 10 to 15 minutes every five years on the "individual" member
            (do the
            > math and see for yourself). Klemp has said that he checks the
            inner
            > akashic and soul records to make such a choice. Remember
            that this
            > would have to be done to merely consider a person for
            initiation,
            > that is, to give each chela the individual attention and
            > consideration that is due, whether or not the chela is actually
            > approved for initiation.
            > > >
            > Klemp would have to live out of the body most of his life to
            > accomplish such a feat. He would have no time for seminars,
            writing
            > his constant supply of books, writing his speeches, eating,
            drinking,
            > sleeping, going to meetings, running the corporation, etc. For
            those
            > who argue that such reading of soul records does not take
            time,
            > consider that Klemp has discontinued private requests for
            > consultations to do soul readings because, according to him, it
            takes
            > hours to accomplish an accurate reading of the soul records of
            just
            > one person. Thus, a mere fifteen minutes would not be
            sufficient to
            > approve an initiation, even if he did spend all day, every day of
            his
            > life approving initiations. Think about this!
            > > >
            > From this it can be deduced that Klemp has, for the most part,
            > nothing to do with the initiations, other than, perhaps,
            performing a
            > perfunctory blessing of them in the eckankar offices to fool the
            > membership. He simply doesn't have the time.
            > > >
            > Remember this key point: It's a fact that someone would have
            to act
            > on the physical plane to approve the initiations and physically
            send
            > out pink slips. No matter how you slice it, this person (or more
            > likely, persons) is not the Living Eck Master, but rather, several
            > paid employees.
            > > >
            > Some people argue that the true initiations are "inner," and
            > therefore the outer initiations are not the true initiations. The
            > fallacy in the logic of this argument is that Twitchell originally
            > stated that the inner initiation comes before the outer, due to
            the
            > principle of "as above, so below," which means that outer
            events
            > occur on the inner first, manifesting outwardly later. Klemp has
            > attempted to confuse people by reversing this, claiming that it
            takes
            > time to grow into an initiation. But here Klemp contradicts
            himself,
            > since Klemp has expressly stated in writing that he personally
            > approves the outer initiations by reading the inner soul
            records.
            > This means the person receiving the outer initiation would
            have,
            > according to Klemp's own written statements, already have the
            inner
            > preparation, and thus would have received the inner initiation. It
            is
            > absurd to conclude that Klemp, in taking time to read the soul
            > records to approve the outer initiation, would not include as
            part of
            > that time and effort the giving of the actual inner initiation, if
            > after having read the soul records it was determined the chela
            was
            > eligible for the initiation. Thus, the logic that the inner and outer
            > initiations are separate and not inextricably linked is denied in
            > statements by Eckankar's only presumed authority, the Living
            Eck
            > Master, Harold Klemp. And the obvious fact is, Klemp would
            not have
            > the requisite time that he has stated is necessary to read so
            many
            > soul records each day of his life. He has been caught up in his
            own
            > contradictory statements and revealed himself to be a fraud.
            > > >
            > Thus, the initiations are entirely bogus. They represent nothing
            more
            > than organizational status. Observe the behavior of the online
            > clergy. These are not enlightened beings. They are ordinary
            people
            > caught up in the throes of everyday life, like most people are in
            the
            > rest of the world.
            > > >
            > Kent
            >
          • pretujari
            Hello, This reminds me of two scenerios regarding the initiations. One was to do with a couple. The husband was really perplexed when the pink slip came for
            Message 5 of 11 , Feb 5, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              Hello,
              This reminds me of two scenerios regarding the initiations. One was
              to do with a couple. The husband was really perplexed when the pink
              slip came for him and the wife for their 4th. According to the man,
              he never understood why his wife also received the 4th because she
              was quarrellsome, never practiced her spiritual exercises, nor had
              much time for Eckankar.He told me this when I explained the truth
              about the eckankar initiations to him. The other was an elderly woman
              who was very close to me . She confided in me amidst tears that she
              had stayed in the 3rd initiation for years. As she cried while
              narrating this, she wondered why and what she had done, since others
              who came after her had bypassed her in initiations. Unfortunately,
              she did not live long enough to know the truth. Am sure all has been
              made clear to her on the other side.
              Pretujari.





              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater"
              <tianyue@...> wrote:
              >


              > Ex-Initiator's Guide to Initiations
              >
              > [I've posted an earlier version of this before, and with the
              > discussion of secret words that has been ongoing on another group,
              I
              > thought this might be a good time to repost this. I've revised
              this,
              > and added rebuttles to comments Eckists have made to the original.-
              > K.A.]
              >
              >
              >
              > When I received the sixth initiation, I had essentially already
              > decided to leave Eckankar. I was still hanging on out of some
              slight
              > uncertainty, and also had decided to maintain my membership due to
              > the fact that my partner, Lisa, still remained loyal to Eckankar. A
              > year or two had passed while I was in this state of serious doubt
              and
              > skepticism, when the pink slip for the sixth initiation came. I was
              > surprised to say the least. Yet I wasn't too surprised. This
              > confirmed what I already suspected: Initiations are not overseen or
              > approved by a Mahanta or some omniscient being, but by a computer,
              > with the assistance of initiate reports, and recommendations by the
              > local Resa and other local High Initiates. I remained in Eckankar
              for
              > years after this, until the day my mate felt as I did, and we both
              > resigned.
              >
              > Lest there are those in Eckankar who don't yet know this, lists are
              > periodically sent out with names generated by a computer to the
              state
              > Resa (Regional Eck Spiritual Aid), who confers with local High
              > Initiates to either recommend or not, an initiation (Klemp himself
              > wrote of the computers producing the initiation lists a while back
              as
              > I recall). Around the time I left Eckankar, most Eckists were
              > automatically placed on the list every four or five years or so. If
              > for some reason an Eckist was denied, they would usually show up
              > again on the next year's list. Local H.I.'s in my area (including
              > myself) would routinely talk over the names on the list via the
              > telephone, and give their recommendations to the Resa according to
              > each chela's loyalty and degree of outer service to the org. Those
              > who were especially "troublesome" could be denied the initiation.
              The
              > Resa emphasized loyalty as the most important trait. The results
              from
              > the Resa are sent back to Minneapolis HQ where assistants appointed
              > by Harold approve or deny the initiation based on such things as
              the
              > time served as a dues paying member, the Resa recommendations, and
              > initiate reports. Some, including myself, have observed that
              initiate
              > reports (especially those which are positive or are written in
              praise
              > of the org) definitely can play a role in the initiation approval
              > process.
              >
              > Despite this, few people were denied an initiation if they were on
              > the list. Eckankar has a very liberal policy toward initiations. I
              > noticed that those who followed the disciplines well fared no
              better
              > or worse than those who didn't. I noticed people who smoked, drank
              or
              > never did their exercises stood just as great a chance of receiving
              > the fifth initiation as anyone <G>. More than anything, the
              > initiations were awarded based on time as a member. The rate at
              which
              > initiations were received could be accelerated or delayed based on
              > the chelas relationship with local H.I.'s and, especially, the
              state
              > Resa, who has a great deal of influence in such matters.
              >
              > And one other thing is clear: Those who do not substantially
              conform
              > to the expectations of the group are the ones most likely to be
              > denied an initiation. Despite this, the H.I.'s or Resa's in
              different
              > areas may vary in their tolerance levels, which accounts for the
              > stories heard about individuals who never received initiations in
              one
              > locale suddenly begin to receive them after moving to another area.
              > Also, I've witnessed initiations being approved after three or four
              > H.I's gave their unsolicited recommendations to Spiritual Services
              on
              > behalf of certain chelas who were thought of as exceptionally
              > deserving.
              >
              > I once had a friend who was extremely devoted to Eckankar, who had
              > lived in a remote area during most of her time as a member, and
              > didn't realize Eckankar's policy that time served as a dues paying
              > member counted toward initiation. As a result, she didn't receive
              > initiations for years do to the fact that she kept forgetting to
              > renew her membership, thinking such things to be of the material
              > worlds! She had no idea such trivialities mattered to the
              omniscient
              > Mahanta! This woman had a life membership (at one time you could
              pay
              > a large one time fee, $2,000, for a membership for life) but was
              > still required to notify Eckankar of her intent to renew annually,
              > though no additional fee was required. She didn't think such
              > formalities were all that important, and as a result, due to a less
              > than exemplary membership record, received no initiations beyond
              the
              > second, despite years of devotion to Eckankar. One often may hear
              > Eckists parroting that such outer initiations matter little, yet
              > privately, most Eckists seem to feel very strongly about the
              > initiations they are awarded.
              >
              > This isn't spoken of very much out in the open in Eckankar, but
              > people such as the woman in the example can become quite
              > disillusioned and depressed over not keeping up with their peers,
              > feeling left behind, unwanted, and forgotten by the Mahanta. They
              see
              > others who are seemingly less deserving receiving initiations,
              > whereas they, despite being very devoted to Eckankar and the
              > associated disciplines, seem to fall hopelessly behind. Due to
              > Eckankar's policy that one not ever request initiations, many
              suffer
              > in silence, sensing justifiably that something isn't quite right,
              yet
              > fear to even ask about the possibility of an error. In many cases,
              > even when they do ask, they face a stony silence from the org, or
              are
              > told they are being "tested" spiritually, when all that is needed
              is
              > a quick check of the record. This is one of the way's such a system
              > can inflict undue pain upon its members, and is one reason I am
              > taking the time to write about this in detail.
              >
              > Think about the numbers involved in the initiation approval
              process.
              > If there are, as claimed, 50,000 members in the org, and each is
              > considered for an initiation every five years or so, then that
              would
              > average 10,000 per year, or 833 per month, or about 40 per day
              > (excluding weekends), or about one initiation to be approved every
              10
              > to 15 minutes in an average eight hour day. Klemp would have to
              work
              > full time on initiations every day for the rest of his life to
              spend
              > 10 to 15 minutes every five years on the "individual" member (do
              the
              > math and see for yourself). Klemp has said that he checks the inner
              > akashic and soul records to make such a choice. Remember that this
              > would have to be done to merely consider a person for initiation,
              > that is, to give each chela the individual attention and
              > consideration that is due, whether or not the chela is actually
              > approved for initiation.
              >
              > Klemp would have to live out of the body most of his life to
              > accomplish such a feat. He would have no time for seminars, writing
              > his constant supply of books, writing his speeches, eating,
              drinking,
              > sleeping, going to meetings, running the corporation, etc. For
              those
              > who argue that such reading of soul records does not take time,
              > consider that Klemp has discontinued private requests for
              > consultations to do soul readings because, according to him, it
              takes
              > hours to accomplish an accurate reading of the soul records of just
              > one person. Thus, a mere fifteen minutes would not be sufficient to
              > approve an initiation, even if he did spend all day, every day of
              his
              > life approving initiations. Think about this!
              >
              > From this it can be deduced that Klemp has, for the most part,
              > nothing to do with the initiations, other than, perhaps, performing
              a
              > perfunctory blessing of them in the eckankar offices to fool the
              > membership. He simply doesn't have the time.
              >
              > Remember this key point: It's a fact that someone would have to act
              > on the physical plane to approve the initiations and physically
              send
              > out pink slips. No matter how you slice it, this person (or more
              > likely, persons) is not the Living Eck Master, but rather, several
              > paid employees.
              >
              > Some people argue that the true initiations are "inner," and
              > therefore the outer initiations are not the true initiations. The
              > fallacy in the logic of this argument is that Twitchell originally
              > stated that the inner initiation comes before the outer, due to the
              > principle of "as above, so below," which means that outer events
              > occur on the inner first, manifesting outwardly later. Klemp has
              > attempted to confuse people by reversing this, claiming that it
              takes
              > time to grow into an initiation. But here Klemp contradicts
              himself,
              > since Klemp has expressly stated in writing that he personally
              > approves the outer initiations by reading the inner soul records.
              > This means the person receiving the outer initiation would have,
              > according to Klemp's own written statements, already have the inner
              > preparation, and thus would have received the inner initiation. It
              is
              > absurd to conclude that Klemp, in taking time to read the soul
              > records to approve the outer initiation, would not include as part
              of
              > that time and effort the giving of the actual inner initiation, if
              > after having read the soul records it was determined the chela was
              > eligible for the initiation. Thus, the logic that the inner and
              outer
              > initiations are separate and not inextricably linked is denied in
              > statements by Eckankar's only presumed authority, the Living Eck
              > Master, Harold Klemp. And the obvious fact is, Klemp would not have
              > the requisite time that he has stated is necessary to read so many
              > soul records each day of his life. He has been caught up in his own
              > contradictory statements and revealed himself to be a fraud.
              >
              > Thus, the initiations are entirely bogus. They represent nothing
              more
              > than organizational status. Observe the behavior of the online
              > clergy. These are not enlightened beings. They are ordinary people
              > caught up in the throes of everyday life, like most people are in
              the
              > rest of the world.
              >
              > Kent
              >
            • pretujari
              Hi All, Klemp spent 14 years in training and became a Mahanta/LEM of the 14th. His successor has spent 25years and counting in training and will only come in
              Message 6 of 11 , Feb 5, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi All,
                Klemp spent 14 years in training and became a Mahanta/LEM of the
                14th. His successor has spent 25years and counting in training and
                will only come in as 12th Initiate LEM of the 'Mahanta
                Consciousness.' It just doesn't add up.
                Pretujari

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi All,
                > I thought that I'd bring this back for more comments.
                >
                > I noticed that some chelas who were put on the RESA's
                > sh_t list were there for up to three years and, thus, had
                > their initiations delayed for three years. Some of these
                > RESAs are really into the three thing except, of course,
                > when doing their "five year (business) plan!" The ESC
                > just follows the lead of the RESAs and the RESAs follow
                > the gossip and recommendations of their friends who
                > are H.I.s.
                >
                > Also, at one time a life membership was $500, but this
                > was early on and for just a brief time period when quick
                > money was needed. However, just before DG was booted
                > Darwin reinstated the lifetime membership donation
                > for $1,000! DG took the money and ran while leaving HK
                > holding the bag. However, I'm told, that HK still requires
                > all of the lifetime members to renew each year or lose their
                > lifetime memberships! I haven't heard about the $2,000
                > lifetime memberships that Kent spoke of. Is that what
                > they cost now? What a scam! Especially, if one has to still
                > renew it each year or lose it!
                >
                > Anyway, it doesn't seem very "spiritual" does it? It's typical
                > for HK to preach about one thing and do the opposite!
                >
                > I found these quotes in the Shariyat 2, Ch.2, Books 1&2:
                >
                > "There will be those who call themselves ECK Masters and
                > disguise themselves under the robes of ECK, but they are
                > prophets with false faces who are lying to take in the
                > ECKists... in search of the material things of life: money,
                > health, and physical happiness."
                >
                > So, it seems that Paul was, basically, and maybe unknowingly
                > tying together some random insights to the future of ECKANKAR
                > and to his succesors! The irony is that Paul was more of the
                > Conman than the Godman and was, also, speaking of himself
                > and his own limitations.
                >
                > Yes, the seeker will find "the pseudogurus scattered throughout
                > the world... he will find false prophets and the so-called teachers
                > ... the paradox is that pure consciousness is simultaneously both
                > positive and negative... the light is darkness and darkness is
                light
                > and sound... both are the qualities of the ECK."
                >
                > With this kind of circular logic I can see how Twitchell was able
                > to justify his scam! Just make yourself into a indisputable "God"
                > or authority figure (LEM/Mahanta) and recreate history and reality
                > to suit your needs while attracting a following of needy, gullible,
                > trusting, spiritual seekers who have always felt like or have been
                > misfits in society, in orthodox religion, or within their own
                families.
                > Sell spiritual liberation while creating an admirable vocation for
                > yourself as Top Dog or as Top God!
                >
                > However, I must say that timing is everything. Perhaps this is also
                > why ECKANKAR membership numbers are dropping, and why there
                > is such a push to get the ECK Youth more brainwashed and to get
                > the Vahana (Missionary) volunteer army into the field of action. HK
                > is doing a "sell" of ECKANKAR and of himself that definitely goes
                > beyond just getting the normal word of mouth "message" out.
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > prometheus wrote:
                > >
                > Hi Kent,
                > I agree, the ECK Initiations are bogus. It is strange how
                > Klemp has stated that a Chela grows "into" their initiation
                > years after receiving it on the outer. Therefore, a 5th wouldn't
                > know that they had completed the tests, lessons, etc. of the
                > 5th until they received the 6th! Yet, in the Masters 4 Discourse,
                > Lesson 2 on The Ninth Initiation, HK states that the Initiation
                > is NOT completed until the third and final stage of confirmation
                > is given on the outer. Thus, there are two "inner" stages and
                > one "outer" stage for the 9th initiation.
                > >
                > Maybe HK's other explanation came about when Gross was
                > kicked to the curb, but sent out 500 Higher Initiations before
                > he left! HK said these chelas weren't supposed to get promoted,
                > but would work with them (on the inner) to bring them up to
                > speed or up to that level of delusion. Still, it doesn't explain
                > why people skipped initiations or only served a few months in
                > one before receiving the next one! Klemp never addressed that
                > issue since he too benefited and experienced that same thing via
                > DG.
                > >
                > One would think that one explanation should apply to all, but
                > Klemp changes things as he sees fit because he can! It's a
                > tough job to keep his and Paul's nonsense sorted out. Then
                > again, keeping ECKists off balance and confused is part
                > of the plan. If people can accept all sorts and all amounts of
                > crap via blind faith and imagination then why be concerned?
                > Besides, ECKists see it as a test... or a paradox... or as just
                > Lower World Mental expressions that are limiting. The "inner"
                > is the only true reality for them... right? I always found it
                > interesting how PT would give people a heads up to truth
                > on occasion. It's like a thief telling you not to forget to lock
                > your doors. Now wouldn't you assume a guy like that was
                > to be trusted?
                > >
                > Here's a supposed quote from Shamus-i-Tabriz from a
                > chela's dream: "Little do we realize how our expectations
                > shape our experiences and reality." [pg. 88, TWEM]
                > >
                > Now, if only ECKists could see the truth of that statement!
                > >
                > Prometheus
                > >
                > Kent wrote:
                > > >
                > Ex-Initiator's Guide to Initiations
                > > >
                > [I've posted an earlier version of this before, and with the
                > discussion of secret words that has been ongoing on another group,
                I
                > thought this might be a good time to repost this. I've revised
                this,
                > and added rebuttles to comments Eckists have made to the original.-
                > K.A.]
                > > >
                > When I received the sixth initiation, I had essentially already
                > decided to leave Eckankar. I was still hanging on out of some
                slight
                > uncertainty, and also had decided to maintain my membership due to
                > the fact that my partner, Lisa, still remained loyal to Eckankar. A
                > year or two had passed while I was in this state of serious doubt
                and
                > skepticism, when the pink slip for the sixth initiation came. I was
                > surprised to say the least. Yet I wasn't too surprised. This
                > confirmed what I already suspected: Initiations are not overseen or
                > approved by a Mahanta or some omniscient being, but by a computer,
                > with the assistance of initiate reports, and recommendations by the
                > local Resa and other local High Initiates. I remained in Eckankar
                for
                > years after this, until the day my mate felt as I did, and we both
                > resigned.
                > > >
                > Lest there are those in Eckankar who don't yet know this, lists are
                > periodically sent out with names generated by a computer to the
                state
                > Resa (Regional Eck Spiritual Aid), who confers with local High
                > Initiates to either recommend or not, an initiation (Klemp himself
                > wrote of the computers producing the initiation lists a while back
                as
                > I recall). Around the time I left Eckankar, most Eckists were
                > automatically placed on the list every four or five years or so. If
                > for some reason an Eckist was denied, they would usually show up
                > again on the next year's list. Local H.I.'s in my area (including
                > myself) would routinely talk over the names on the list via the
                > telephone, and give their recommendations to the Resa according to
                > each chela's loyalty and degree of outer service to the org. Those
                > who were especially "troublesome" could be denied the initiation.
                The
                > Resa emphasized loyalty as the most important trait. The results
                from
                > the Resa are sent back to Minneapolis HQ where assistants appointed
                > by Harold approve or deny the initiation based on such things as
                the
                > time served as a dues paying member, the Resa recommendations, and
                > initiate reports. Some, including myself, have observed that
                initiate
                > reports (especially those which are positive or are written in
                praise
                > of the org) definitely can play a role in the initiation approval
                > process.
                > > >
                > Despite this, few people were denied an initiation if they were on
                > the list. Eckankar has a very liberal policy toward initiations. I
                > noticed that those who followed the disciplines well fared no
                better
                > or worse than those who didn't. I noticed people who smoked, drank
                or
                > never did their exercises stood just as great a chance of receiving
                > the fifth initiation as anyone <G>. More than anything, the
                > initiations were awarded based on time as a member. The rate at
                which
                > initiations were received could be accelerated or delayed based on
                > the chelas relationship with local H.I.'s and, especially, the
                state
                > Resa, who has a great deal of influence in such matters.
                > > >
                > And one other thing is clear: Those who do not substantially
                conform
                > to the expectations of the group are the ones most likely to be
                > denied an initiation. Despite this, the H.I.'s or Resa's in
                different
                > areas may vary in their tolerance levels, which accounts for the
                > stories heard about individuals who never received initiations in
                one
                > locale suddenly begin to receive them after moving to another area.
                > Also, I've witnessed initiations being approved after three or four
                > H.I's gave their unsolicited recommendations to Spiritual Services
                on
                > behalf of certain chelas who were thought of as exceptionally
                > deserving.
                > > >
                > I once had a friend who was extremely devoted to Eckankar, who had
                > lived in a remote area during most of her time as a member, and
                > didn't realize Eckankar's policy that time served as a dues paying
                > member counted toward initiation. As a result, she didn't receive
                > initiations for years do to the fact that she kept forgetting to
                > renew her membership, thinking such things to be of the material
                > worlds! She had no idea such trivialities mattered to the
                omniscient
                > Mahanta! This woman had a life membership (at one time you could
                pay
                > a large one time fee, $2,000, for a membership for life) but was
                > still required to notify Eckankar of her intent to renew annually,
                > though no additional fee was required. She didn't think such
                > formalities were all that important, and as a result, due to a less
                > than exemplary membership record, received no initiations beyond
                the
                > second, despite years of devotion to Eckankar. One often may hear
                > Eckists parroting that such outer initiations matter little, yet
                > privately, most Eckists seem to feel very strongly about the
                > initiations they are awarded.
                > > >
                > This isn't spoken of very much out in the open in Eckankar, but
                > people such as the woman in the example can become quite
                > disillusioned and depressed over not keeping up with their peers,
                > feeling left behind, unwanted, and forgotten by the Mahanta. They
                see
                > others who are seemingly less deserving receiving initiations,
                > whereas they, despite being very devoted to Eckankar and the
                > associated disciplines, seem to fall hopelessly behind. Due to
                > Eckankar's policy that one not ever request initiations, many
                suffer
                > in silence, sensing justifiably that something isn't quite right,
                yet
                > fear to even ask about the possibility of an error. In many cases,
                > even when they do ask, they face a stony silence from the org, or
                are
                > told they are being "tested" spiritually, when all that is needed
                is
                > a quick check of the record. This is one of the way's such a system
                > can inflict undue pain upon its members, and is one reason I am
                > taking the time to write about this in detail.
                > > >
                > Think about the numbers involved in the initiation approval
                process.
                > If there are, as claimed, 50,000 members in the org, and each is
                > considered for an initiation every five years or so, then that
                would
                > average 10,000 per year, or 833 per month, or about 40 per day
                > (excluding weekends), or about one initiation to be approved every
                10
                > to 15 minutes in an average eight hour day. Klemp would have to
                work
                > full time on initiations every day for the rest of his life to
                spend
                > 10 to 15 minutes every five years on the "individual" member (do
                the
                > math and see for yourself). Klemp has said that he checks the inner
                > akashic and soul records to make such a choice. Remember that this
                > would have to be done to merely consider a person for initiation,
                > that is, to give each chela the individual attention and
                > consideration that is due, whether or not the chela is actually
                > approved for initiation.
                > > >
                > Klemp would have to live out of the body most of his life to
                > accomplish such a feat. He would have no time for seminars, writing
                > his constant supply of books, writing his speeches, eating,
                drinking,
                > sleeping, going to meetings, running the corporation, etc. For
                those
                > who argue that such reading of soul records does not take time,
                > consider that Klemp has discontinued private requests for
                > consultations to do soul readings because, according to him, it
                takes
                > hours to accomplish an accurate reading of the soul records of just
                > one person. Thus, a mere fifteen minutes would not be sufficient to
                > approve an initiation, even if he did spend all day, every day of
                his
                > life approving initiations. Think about this!
                > > >
                > From this it can be deduced that Klemp has, for the most part,
                > nothing to do with the initiations, other than, perhaps, performing
                a
                > perfunctory blessing of them in the eckankar offices to fool the
                > membership. He simply doesn't have the time.
                > > >
                > Remember this key point: It's a fact that someone would have to act
                > on the physical plane to approve the initiations and physically
                send
                > out pink slips. No matter how you slice it, this person (or more
                > likely, persons) is not the Living Eck Master, but rather, several
                > paid employees.
                > > >
                > Some people argue that the true initiations are "inner," and
                > therefore the outer initiations are not the true initiations. The
                > fallacy in the logic of this argument is that Twitchell originally
                > stated that the inner initiation comes before the outer, due to the
                > principle of "as above, so below," which means that outer events
                > occur on the inner first, manifesting outwardly later. Klemp has
                > attempted to confuse people by reversing this, claiming that it
                takes
                > time to grow into an initiation. But here Klemp contradicts
                himself,
                > since Klemp has expressly stated in writing that he personally
                > approves the outer initiations by reading the inner soul records.
                > This means the person receiving the outer initiation would have,
                > according to Klemp's own written statements, already have the inner
                > preparation, and thus would have received the inner initiation. It
                is
                > absurd to conclude that Klemp, in taking time to read the soul
                > records to approve the outer initiation, would not include as part
                of
                > that time and effort the giving of the actual inner initiation, if
                > after having read the soul records it was determined the chela was
                > eligible for the initiation. Thus, the logic that the inner and
                outer
                > initiations are separate and not inextricably linked is denied in
                > statements by Eckankar's only presumed authority, the Living Eck
                > Master, Harold Klemp. And the obvious fact is, Klemp would not have
                > the requisite time that he has stated is necessary to read so many
                > soul records each day of his life. He has been caught up in his own
                > contradictory statements and revealed himself to be a fraud.
                > > >
                > Thus, the initiations are entirely bogus. They represent nothing
                more
                > than organizational status. Observe the behavior of the online
                > clergy. These are not enlightened beings. They are ordinary people
                > caught up in the throes of everyday life, like most people are in
                the
                > rest of the world.
                > > >
                > Kent
                >
              • mishmisha9
                ... The other was an elderly woman ... *********************************************************************** Pretujari, this story about the elderly woman
                Message 7 of 11 , Feb 5, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "pretujari"
                  <pretujari@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Hello,
                  > This reminds me of two scenerios regarding the initiations. One was
                  > to do with a couple. The husband was really perplexed when the pink
                  > slip came for him and the wife for their 4th. According to the man,
                  > he never understood why his wife also received the 4th because she
                  > was quarrellsome, never practiced her spiritual exercises, nor had
                  > much time for Eckankar.He told me this when I explained the truth
                  > about the eckankar initiations to him.


                  The other was an elderly woman
                  > who was very close to me . She confided in me amidst tears that she
                  > had stayed in the 3rd initiation for years. As she cried while
                  > narrating this, she wondered why and what she had done, since others
                  > who came after her had bypassed her in initiations. Unfortunately,
                  > she did not live long enough to know the truth. Am sure all has been
                  > made clear to her on the other side.
                  > Pretujari.
                  >

                  ***********************************************************************

                  Pretujari, this story about the elderly woman demonstrates why
                  eckankar is not a benign cult! It is really sad that she was so
                  tormented about making those initiation levels up until her time
                  of passing! Shame on Klemp and his fraudulent org for sucking
                  the life out of innocent Souls who just want to achieve a sincere
                  connection with God! I feel both sad and angry to think of this
                  woman's sorrow--it's not a good way to live one's life feeling passed
                  over like that!

                  Klemp will ultimately pay for his lies and deceptions! He talks about
                  fear so I have to wonder if he doesn't suffer from real fears in
                  knowing that he has been committing these great spiritual crimes?

                  Eckankar is not harmless in that it does damage Souls.

                  Mish

                  **************************************************************************

                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater"
                  > <tianyue@> wrote:
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > > Ex-Initiator's Guide to Initiations
                  > >
                  > > [I've posted an earlier version of this before, and with the
                  > > discussion of secret words that has been ongoing on another group,
                  > I
                  > > thought this might be a good time to repost this. I've revised
                  > this,
                  > > and added rebuttles to comments Eckists have made to the original.-
                  > > K.A.]
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > When I received the sixth initiation, I had essentially already
                  > > decided to leave Eckankar. I was still hanging on out of some
                  > slight
                  > > uncertainty, and also had decided to maintain my membership due to
                  > > the fact that my partner, Lisa, still remained loyal to Eckankar. A
                  > > year or two had passed while I was in this state of serious doubt
                  > and
                  > > skepticism, when the pink slip for the sixth initiation came. I was
                  > > surprised to say the least. Yet I wasn't too surprised. This
                  > > confirmed what I already suspected: Initiations are not overseen or
                  > > approved by a Mahanta or some omniscient being, but by a computer,
                  > > with the assistance of initiate reports, and recommendations by the
                  > > local Resa and other local High Initiates. I remained in Eckankar
                  > for
                  > > years after this, until the day my mate felt as I did, and we both
                  > > resigned.
                  > >
                  > > Lest there are those in Eckankar who don't yet know this, lists are
                  > > periodically sent out with names generated by a computer to the
                  > state
                  > > Resa (Regional Eck Spiritual Aid), who confers with local High
                  > > Initiates to either recommend or not, an initiation (Klemp himself
                  > > wrote of the computers producing the initiation lists a while back
                  > as
                  > > I recall). Around the time I left Eckankar, most Eckists were
                  > > automatically placed on the list every four or five years or so. If
                  > > for some reason an Eckist was denied, they would usually show up
                  > > again on the next year's list. Local H.I.'s in my area (including
                  > > myself) would routinely talk over the names on the list via the
                  > > telephone, and give their recommendations to the Resa according to
                  > > each chela's loyalty and degree of outer service to the org. Those
                  > > who were especially "troublesome" could be denied the initiation.
                  > The
                  > > Resa emphasized loyalty as the most important trait. The results
                  > from
                  > > the Resa are sent back to Minneapolis HQ where assistants appointed
                  > > by Harold approve or deny the initiation based on such things as
                  > the
                  > > time served as a dues paying member, the Resa recommendations, and
                  > > initiate reports. Some, including myself, have observed that
                  > initiate
                  > > reports (especially those which are positive or are written in
                  > praise
                  > > of the org) definitely can play a role in the initiation approval
                  > > process.
                  > >
                  > > Despite this, few people were denied an initiation if they were on
                  > > the list. Eckankar has a very liberal policy toward initiations. I
                  > > noticed that those who followed the disciplines well fared no
                  > better
                  > > or worse than those who didn't. I noticed people who smoked, drank
                  > or
                  > > never did their exercises stood just as great a chance of receiving
                  > > the fifth initiation as anyone <G>. More than anything, the
                  > > initiations were awarded based on time as a member. The rate at
                  > which
                  > > initiations were received could be accelerated or delayed based on
                  > > the chelas relationship with local H.I.'s and, especially, the
                  > state
                  > > Resa, who has a great deal of influence in such matters.
                  > >
                  > > And one other thing is clear: Those who do not substantially
                  > conform
                  > > to the expectations of the group are the ones most likely to be
                  > > denied an initiation. Despite this, the H.I.'s or Resa's in
                  > different
                  > > areas may vary in their tolerance levels, which accounts for the
                  > > stories heard about individuals who never received initiations in
                  > one
                  > > locale suddenly begin to receive them after moving to another area.
                  > > Also, I've witnessed initiations being approved after three or four
                  > > H.I's gave their unsolicited recommendations to Spiritual Services
                  > on
                  > > behalf of certain chelas who were thought of as exceptionally
                  > > deserving.
                  > >
                  > > I once had a friend who was extremely devoted to Eckankar, who had
                  > > lived in a remote area during most of her time as a member, and
                  > > didn't realize Eckankar's policy that time served as a dues paying
                  > > member counted toward initiation. As a result, she didn't receive
                  > > initiations for years do to the fact that she kept forgetting to
                  > > renew her membership, thinking such things to be of the material
                  > > worlds! She had no idea such trivialities mattered to the
                  > omniscient
                  > > Mahanta! This woman had a life membership (at one time you could
                  > pay
                  > > a large one time fee, $2,000, for a membership for life) but was
                  > > still required to notify Eckankar of her intent to renew annually,
                  > > though no additional fee was required. She didn't think such
                  > > formalities were all that important, and as a result, due to a less
                  > > than exemplary membership record, received no initiations beyond
                  > the
                  > > second, despite years of devotion to Eckankar. One often may hear
                  > > Eckists parroting that such outer initiations matter little, yet
                  > > privately, most Eckists seem to feel very strongly about the
                  > > initiations they are awarded.
                  > >
                  > > This isn't spoken of very much out in the open in Eckankar, but
                  > > people such as the woman in the example can become quite
                  > > disillusioned and depressed over not keeping up with their peers,
                  > > feeling left behind, unwanted, and forgotten by the Mahanta. They
                  > see
                  > > others who are seemingly less deserving receiving initiations,
                  > > whereas they, despite being very devoted to Eckankar and the
                  > > associated disciplines, seem to fall hopelessly behind. Due to
                  > > Eckankar's policy that one not ever request initiations, many
                  > suffer
                  > > in silence, sensing justifiably that something isn't quite right,
                  > yet
                  > > fear to even ask about the possibility of an error. In many cases,
                  > > even when they do ask, they face a stony silence from the org, or
                  > are
                  > > told they are being "tested" spiritually, when all that is needed
                  > is
                  > > a quick check of the record. This is one of the way's such a system
                  > > can inflict undue pain upon its members, and is one reason I am
                  > > taking the time to write about this in detail.
                  > >
                  > > Think about the numbers involved in the initiation approval
                  > process.
                  > > If there are, as claimed, 50,000 members in the org, and each is
                  > > considered for an initiation every five years or so, then that
                  > would
                  > > average 10,000 per year, or 833 per month, or about 40 per day
                  > > (excluding weekends), or about one initiation to be approved every
                  > 10
                  > > to 15 minutes in an average eight hour day. Klemp would have to
                  > work
                  > > full time on initiations every day for the rest of his life to
                  > spend
                  > > 10 to 15 minutes every five years on the "individual" member (do
                  > the
                  > > math and see for yourself). Klemp has said that he checks the inner
                  > > akashic and soul records to make such a choice. Remember that this
                  > > would have to be done to merely consider a person for initiation,
                  > > that is, to give each chela the individual attention and
                  > > consideration that is due, whether or not the chela is actually
                  > > approved for initiation.
                  > >
                  > > Klemp would have to live out of the body most of his life to
                  > > accomplish such a feat. He would have no time for seminars, writing
                  > > his constant supply of books, writing his speeches, eating,
                  > drinking,
                  > > sleeping, going to meetings, running the corporation, etc. For
                  > those
                  > > who argue that such reading of soul records does not take time,
                  > > consider that Klemp has discontinued private requests for
                  > > consultations to do soul readings because, according to him, it
                  > takes
                  > > hours to accomplish an accurate reading of the soul records of just
                  > > one person. Thus, a mere fifteen minutes would not be sufficient to
                  > > approve an initiation, even if he did spend all day, every day of
                  > his
                  > > life approving initiations. Think about this!
                  > >
                  > > From this it can be deduced that Klemp has, for the most part,
                  > > nothing to do with the initiations, other than, perhaps, performing
                  > a
                  > > perfunctory blessing of them in the eckankar offices to fool the
                  > > membership. He simply doesn't have the time.
                  > >
                  > > Remember this key point: It's a fact that someone would have to act
                  > > on the physical plane to approve the initiations and physically
                  > send
                  > > out pink slips. No matter how you slice it, this person (or more
                  > > likely, persons) is not the Living Eck Master, but rather, several
                  > > paid employees.
                  > >
                  > > Some people argue that the true initiations are "inner," and
                  > > therefore the outer initiations are not the true initiations. The
                  > > fallacy in the logic of this argument is that Twitchell originally
                  > > stated that the inner initiation comes before the outer, due to the
                  > > principle of "as above, so below," which means that outer events
                  > > occur on the inner first, manifesting outwardly later. Klemp has
                  > > attempted to confuse people by reversing this, claiming that it
                  > takes
                  > > time to grow into an initiation. But here Klemp contradicts
                  > himself,
                  > > since Klemp has expressly stated in writing that he personally
                  > > approves the outer initiations by reading the inner soul records.
                  > > This means the person receiving the outer initiation would have,
                  > > according to Klemp's own written statements, already have the inner
                  > > preparation, and thus would have received the inner initiation. It
                  > is
                  > > absurd to conclude that Klemp, in taking time to read the soul
                  > > records to approve the outer initiation, would not include as part
                  > of
                  > > that time and effort the giving of the actual inner initiation, if
                  > > after having read the soul records it was determined the chela was
                  > > eligible for the initiation. Thus, the logic that the inner and
                  > outer
                  > > initiations are separate and not inextricably linked is denied in
                  > > statements by Eckankar's only presumed authority, the Living Eck
                  > > Master, Harold Klemp. And the obvious fact is, Klemp would not have
                  > > the requisite time that he has stated is necessary to read so many
                  > > soul records each day of his life. He has been caught up in his own
                  > > contradictory statements and revealed himself to be a fraud.
                  > >
                  > > Thus, the initiations are entirely bogus. They represent nothing
                  > more
                  > > than organizational status. Observe the behavior of the online
                  > > clergy. These are not enlightened beings. They are ordinary people
                  > > caught up in the throes of everyday life, like most people are in
                  > the
                  > > rest of the world.
                  > >
                  > > Kent
                  > >
                  >
                • tomleafeater
                  ... woman ... others ... been ... Thanks for the reply, Pretujari. Yes, you have captured well the meaning of the story in my post with your own anecdotes.
                  Message 8 of 11 , Feb 5, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "pretujari"
                    <pretujari@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Hello,
                    > This reminds me of two scenerios regarding the initiations. One was
                    > to do with a couple. The husband was really perplexed when the pink
                    > slip came for him and the wife for their 4th. According to the man,
                    > he never understood why his wife also received the 4th because she
                    > was quarrellsome, never practiced her spiritual exercises, nor had
                    > much time for Eckankar.He told me this when I explained the truth
                    > about the eckankar initiations to him. The other was an elderly
                    woman
                    > who was very close to me . She confided in me amidst tears that she
                    > had stayed in the 3rd initiation for years. As she cried while
                    > narrating this, she wondered why and what she had done, since
                    others
                    > who came after her had bypassed her in initiations. Unfortunately,
                    > she did not live long enough to know the truth. Am sure all has
                    been
                    > made clear to her on the other side.
                    > Pretujari.




                    Thanks for the reply, Pretujari. Yes, you have captured well the
                    meaning of the story in my post with your own anecdotes. Frankly,
                    during my 28 years in eckankar I'd witnessed many such individuals
                    who sincerely wanted to find enlightenment only to become caught up
                    in the completely unfair initiation process. People in eckankar like
                    to pretend they are "detached" about such things, but the real truth
                    is that the initiations become very important milestones to eckists,
                    and when they are unfairly awarded, which they are, serious affects
                    occur in members.

                    Again, thanks for your great reply. I think your post really helps to
                    bring out the harmful effects of the bogus "initiations" on members.

                    Kent




                    >
                    > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater"
                    > <tianyue@> wrote:
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > > Ex-Initiator's Guide to Initiations
                    > >
                    > > [I've posted an earlier version of this before, and with the
                    > > discussion of secret words that has been ongoing on another
                    group,
                    > I
                    > > thought this might be a good time to repost this. I've revised
                    > this,
                    > > and added rebuttles to comments Eckists have made to the
                    original.-
                    > > K.A.]
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > When I received the sixth initiation, I had essentially already
                    > > decided to leave Eckankar. I was still hanging on out of some
                    > slight
                    > > uncertainty, and also had decided to maintain my membership due
                    to
                    > > the fact that my partner, Lisa, still remained loyal to Eckankar.
                    A
                    > > year or two had passed while I was in this state of serious doubt
                    > and
                    > > skepticism, when the pink slip for the sixth initiation came. I
                    was
                    > > surprised to say the least. Yet I wasn't too surprised. This
                    > > confirmed what I already suspected: Initiations are not overseen
                    or
                    > > approved by a Mahanta or some omniscient being, but by a
                    computer,
                    > > with the assistance of initiate reports, and recommendations by
                    the
                    > > local Resa and other local High Initiates. I remained in Eckankar
                    > for
                    > > years after this, until the day my mate felt as I did, and we
                    both
                    > > resigned.
                    > >
                    > > Lest there are those in Eckankar who don't yet know this, lists
                    are
                    > > periodically sent out with names generated by a computer to the
                    > state
                    > > Resa (Regional Eck Spiritual Aid), who confers with local High
                    > > Initiates to either recommend or not, an initiation (Klemp
                    himself
                    > > wrote of the computers producing the initiation lists a while
                    back
                    > as
                    > > I recall). Around the time I left Eckankar, most Eckists were
                    > > automatically placed on the list every four or five years or so.
                    If
                    > > for some reason an Eckist was denied, they would usually show up
                    > > again on the next year's list. Local H.I.'s in my area (including
                    > > myself) would routinely talk over the names on the list via the
                    > > telephone, and give their recommendations to the Resa according
                    to
                    > > each chela's loyalty and degree of outer service to the org.
                    Those
                    > > who were especially "troublesome" could be denied the initiation.
                    > The
                    > > Resa emphasized loyalty as the most important trait. The results
                    > from
                    > > the Resa are sent back to Minneapolis HQ where assistants
                    appointed
                    > > by Harold approve or deny the initiation based on such things as
                    > the
                    > > time served as a dues paying member, the Resa recommendations,
                    and
                    > > initiate reports. Some, including myself, have observed that
                    > initiate
                    > > reports (especially those which are positive or are written in
                    > praise
                    > > of the org) definitely can play a role in the initiation approval
                    > > process.
                    > >
                    > > Despite this, few people were denied an initiation if they were
                    on
                    > > the list. Eckankar has a very liberal policy toward initiations.
                    I
                    > > noticed that those who followed the disciplines well fared no
                    > better
                    > > or worse than those who didn't. I noticed people who smoked,
                    drank
                    > or
                    > > never did their exercises stood just as great a chance of
                    receiving
                    > > the fifth initiation as anyone <G>. More than anything, the
                    > > initiations were awarded based on time as a member. The rate at
                    > which
                    > > initiations were received could be accelerated or delayed based
                    on
                    > > the chelas relationship with local H.I.'s and, especially, the
                    > state
                    > > Resa, who has a great deal of influence in such matters.
                    > >
                    > > And one other thing is clear: Those who do not substantially
                    > conform
                    > > to the expectations of the group are the ones most likely to be
                    > > denied an initiation. Despite this, the H.I.'s or Resa's in
                    > different
                    > > areas may vary in their tolerance levels, which accounts for the
                    > > stories heard about individuals who never received initiations in
                    > one
                    > > locale suddenly begin to receive them after moving to another
                    area.
                    > > Also, I've witnessed initiations being approved after three or
                    four
                    > > H.I's gave their unsolicited recommendations to Spiritual
                    Services
                    > on
                    > > behalf of certain chelas who were thought of as exceptionally
                    > > deserving.
                    > >
                    > > I once had a friend who was extremely devoted to Eckankar, who
                    had
                    > > lived in a remote area during most of her time as a member, and
                    > > didn't realize Eckankar's policy that time served as a dues
                    paying
                    > > member counted toward initiation. As a result, she didn't receive
                    > > initiations for years do to the fact that she kept forgetting to
                    > > renew her membership, thinking such things to be of the material
                    > > worlds! She had no idea such trivialities mattered to the
                    > omniscient
                    > > Mahanta! This woman had a life membership (at one time you could
                    > pay
                    > > a large one time fee, $2,000, for a membership for life) but was
                    > > still required to notify Eckankar of her intent to renew
                    annually,
                    > > though no additional fee was required. She didn't think such
                    > > formalities were all that important, and as a result, due to a
                    less
                    > > than exemplary membership record, received no initiations beyond
                    > the
                    > > second, despite years of devotion to Eckankar. One often may hear
                    > > Eckists parroting that such outer initiations matter little, yet
                    > > privately, most Eckists seem to feel very strongly about the
                    > > initiations they are awarded.
                    > >
                    > > This isn't spoken of very much out in the open in Eckankar, but
                    > > people such as the woman in the example can become quite
                    > > disillusioned and depressed over not keeping up with their peers,
                    > > feeling left behind, unwanted, and forgotten by the Mahanta. They
                    > see
                    > > others who are seemingly less deserving receiving initiations,
                    > > whereas they, despite being very devoted to Eckankar and the
                    > > associated disciplines, seem to fall hopelessly behind. Due to
                    > > Eckankar's policy that one not ever request initiations, many
                    > suffer
                    > > in silence, sensing justifiably that something isn't quite right,
                    > yet
                    > > fear to even ask about the possibility of an error. In many
                    cases,
                    > > even when they do ask, they face a stony silence from the org, or
                    > are
                    > > told they are being "tested" spiritually, when all that is needed
                    > is
                    > > a quick check of the record. This is one of the way's such a
                    system
                    > > can inflict undue pain upon its members, and is one reason I am
                    > > taking the time to write about this in detail.
                    > >
                    > > Think about the numbers involved in the initiation approval
                    > process.
                    > > If there are, as claimed, 50,000 members in the org, and each is
                    > > considered for an initiation every five years or so, then that
                    > would
                    > > average 10,000 per year, or 833 per month, or about 40 per day
                    > > (excluding weekends), or about one initiation to be approved
                    every
                    > 10
                    > > to 15 minutes in an average eight hour day. Klemp would have to
                    > work
                    > > full time on initiations every day for the rest of his life to
                    > spend
                    > > 10 to 15 minutes every five years on the "individual" member (do
                    > the
                    > > math and see for yourself). Klemp has said that he checks the
                    inner
                    > > akashic and soul records to make such a choice. Remember that
                    this
                    > > would have to be done to merely consider a person for initiation,
                    > > that is, to give each chela the individual attention and
                    > > consideration that is due, whether or not the chela is actually
                    > > approved for initiation.
                    > >
                    > > Klemp would have to live out of the body most of his life to
                    > > accomplish such a feat. He would have no time for seminars,
                    writing
                    > > his constant supply of books, writing his speeches, eating,
                    > drinking,
                    > > sleeping, going to meetings, running the corporation, etc. For
                    > those
                    > > who argue that such reading of soul records does not take time,
                    > > consider that Klemp has discontinued private requests for
                    > > consultations to do soul readings because, according to him, it
                    > takes
                    > > hours to accomplish an accurate reading of the soul records of
                    just
                    > > one person. Thus, a mere fifteen minutes would not be sufficient
                    to
                    > > approve an initiation, even if he did spend all day, every day of
                    > his
                    > > life approving initiations. Think about this!
                    > >
                    > > From this it can be deduced that Klemp has, for the most part,
                    > > nothing to do with the initiations, other than, perhaps,
                    performing
                    > a
                    > > perfunctory blessing of them in the eckankar offices to fool the
                    > > membership. He simply doesn't have the time.
                    > >
                    > > Remember this key point: It's a fact that someone would have to
                    act
                    > > on the physical plane to approve the initiations and physically
                    > send
                    > > out pink slips. No matter how you slice it, this person (or more
                    > > likely, persons) is not the Living Eck Master, but rather,
                    several
                    > > paid employees.
                    > >
                    > > Some people argue that the true initiations are "inner," and
                    > > therefore the outer initiations are not the true initiations. The
                    > > fallacy in the logic of this argument is that Twitchell
                    originally
                    > > stated that the inner initiation comes before the outer, due to
                    the
                    > > principle of "as above, so below," which means that outer events
                    > > occur on the inner first, manifesting outwardly later. Klemp has
                    > > attempted to confuse people by reversing this, claiming that it
                    > takes
                    > > time to grow into an initiation. But here Klemp contradicts
                    > himself,
                    > > since Klemp has expressly stated in writing that he personally
                    > > approves the outer initiations by reading the inner soul records.
                    > > This means the person receiving the outer initiation would have,
                    > > according to Klemp's own written statements, already have the
                    inner
                    > > preparation, and thus would have received the inner initiation.
                    It
                    > is
                    > > absurd to conclude that Klemp, in taking time to read the soul
                    > > records to approve the outer initiation, would not include as
                    part
                    > of
                    > > that time and effort the giving of the actual inner initiation,
                    if
                    > > after having read the soul records it was determined the chela
                    was
                    > > eligible for the initiation. Thus, the logic that the inner and
                    > outer
                    > > initiations are separate and not inextricably linked is denied in
                    > > statements by Eckankar's only presumed authority, the Living Eck
                    > > Master, Harold Klemp. And the obvious fact is, Klemp would not
                    have
                    > > the requisite time that he has stated is necessary to read so
                    many
                    > > soul records each day of his life. He has been caught up in his
                    own
                    > > contradictory statements and revealed himself to be a fraud.
                    > >
                    > > Thus, the initiations are entirely bogus. They represent nothing
                    > more
                    > > than organizational status. Observe the behavior of the online
                    > > clergy. These are not enlightened beings. They are ordinary
                    people
                    > > caught up in the throes of everyday life, like most people are in
                    > the
                    > > rest of the world.
                    > >
                    > > Kent
                    > >
                    >
                  • prometheus_973
                    The arbitrary way in which the ECK Initiations come to ECKists proves that there is no inner communication with their Master. There is no equality of
                    Message 9 of 11 , Feb 6, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      The arbitrary way in which the ECK Initiations come to
                      ECKists proves that there is no inner communication
                      with their Master. There is no equality of consciousness
                      within the same Circle of Initiation! It's not even close!
                      Therefore, how can there be any truth in the words:
                      'I am always with you.' It's a lie that innocent people
                      have willingly bought into because they want and need
                      to believe in the lie of religion. And, the Eckankar religion
                      may be different and unique and give more answers when
                      compared to most other religions, but that doesn't mean
                      it's all true. Except for the LEM/Mahanta, the Initiations,
                      and the ECK Masters much of what Twitchell "compiled"
                      has some merit for Soul's individual investigation/journey.

                      Prometheus


                      pretujari wrote:
                      > >

                      Hello,
                      This reminds me of two scenerios regarding the initiations. One was
                      to do with a couple. The husband was really perplexed when the pink
                      slip came for him and the wife for their 4th. According to the man,
                      he never understood why his wife also received the 4th because she
                      was quarrellsome, never practiced her spiritual exercises, nor had
                      much time for Eckankar.He told me this when I explained the truth
                      about the eckankar initiations to him.
                      >

                      The other was an elderly woman who was very close to me.
                      She confided in me amidst tears that she had stayed in the
                      3rd initiation for years. As she cried while narrating this, she
                      wondered why and what she had done, since others who came
                      after her had bypassed her in initiations. Unfortunately, she
                      did not live long enough to know the truth. Am sure all has been
                      made clear to her on the other side.
                      Pretujari.

                      >
                      ***********************************************************************
                      >
                      Pretujari, this story about the elderly woman demonstrates why
                      eckankar is not a benign cult! It is really sad that she was so
                      tormented about making those initiation levels up until her time
                      of passing! Shame on Klemp and his fraudulent org for sucking
                      the life out of innocent Souls who just want to achieve a sincere
                      connection with God! I feel both sad and angry to think of this
                      woman's sorrow--it's not a good way to live one's life feeling passed
                      over like that!
                      >
                      Klemp will ultimately pay for his lies and deceptions! He talks about
                      fear so I have to wonder if he doesn't suffer from real fears in
                      knowing that he has been committing these great spiritual crimes?
                      >
                      Eckankar is not harmless in that it does damage Souls.
                      >
                      Mish

                      > **************************************************************************
                      tianyue wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      Ex-Initiator's Guide to Initiations
                      > > >
                      [I've posted an earlier version of this before, and with the
                      discussion of secret words that has been ongoing on another group,
                      I thought this might be a good time to repost this. I've revised
                      this, and added rebuttles to comments Eckists have made to the original.-
                      K.A.]

                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > When I received the sixth initiation, I had essentially already
                      > > > decided to leave Eckankar. I was still hanging on out of some
                      > > slight
                      > > > uncertainty, and also had decided to maintain my membership due to
                      > > > the fact that my partner, Lisa, still remained loyal to Eckankar. A
                      > > > year or two had passed while I was in this state of serious doubt
                      > > and
                      > > > skepticism, when the pink slip for the sixth initiation came. I was
                      > > > surprised to say the least. Yet I wasn't too surprised. This
                      > > > confirmed what I already suspected: Initiations are not overseen or
                      > > > approved by a Mahanta or some omniscient being, but by a computer,
                      > > > with the assistance of initiate reports, and recommendations by the
                      > > > local Resa and other local High Initiates. I remained in Eckankar
                      > > for
                      > > > years after this, until the day my mate felt as I did, and we both
                      > > > resigned.
                      > > >
                      > > > Lest there are those in Eckankar who don't yet know this, lists are
                      > > > periodically sent out with names generated by a computer to the
                      > > state
                      > > > Resa (Regional Eck Spiritual Aid), who confers with local High
                      > > > Initiates to either recommend or not, an initiation (Klemp himself
                      > > > wrote of the computers producing the initiation lists a while back
                      > > as
                      > > > I recall). Around the time I left Eckankar, most Eckists were
                      > > > automatically placed on the list every four or five years or so. If
                      > > > for some reason an Eckist was denied, they would usually show up
                      > > > again on the next year's list. Local H.I.'s in my area (including
                      > > > myself) would routinely talk over the names on the list via the
                      > > > telephone, and give their recommendations to the Resa according to
                      > > > each chela's loyalty and degree of outer service to the org. Those
                      > > > who were especially "troublesome" could be denied the initiation.
                      > > The
                      > > > Resa emphasized loyalty as the most important trait. The results
                      > > from
                      > > > the Resa are sent back to Minneapolis HQ where assistants appointed
                      > > > by Harold approve or deny the initiation based on such things as
                      > > the
                      > > > time served as a dues paying member, the Resa recommendations, and
                      > > > initiate reports. Some, including myself, have observed that
                      > > initiate
                      > > > reports (especially those which are positive or are written in
                      > > praise
                      > > > of the org) definitely can play a role in the initiation approval
                      > > > process.
                      > > >
                      > > > Despite this, few people were denied an initiation if they were on
                      > > > the list. Eckankar has a very liberal policy toward initiations. I
                      > > > noticed that those who followed the disciplines well fared no
                      > > better
                      > > > or worse than those who didn't. I noticed people who smoked, drank
                      > > or
                      > > > never did their exercises stood just as great a chance of receiving
                      > > > the fifth initiation as anyone <G>. More than anything, the
                      > > > initiations were awarded based on time as a member. The rate at
                      > > which
                      > > > initiations were received could be accelerated or delayed based on
                      > > > the chelas relationship with local H.I.'s and, especially, the
                      > > state
                      > > > Resa, who has a great deal of influence in such matters.
                      > > >
                      > > > And one other thing is clear: Those who do not substantially
                      > > conform
                      > > > to the expectations of the group are the ones most likely to be
                      > > > denied an initiation. Despite this, the H.I.'s or Resa's in
                      > > different
                      > > > areas may vary in their tolerance levels, which accounts for the
                      > > > stories heard about individuals who never received initiations in
                      > > one
                      > > > locale suddenly begin to receive them after moving to another area.
                      > > > Also, I've witnessed initiations being approved after three or four
                      > > > H.I's gave their unsolicited recommendations to Spiritual Services
                      > > on
                      > > > behalf of certain chelas who were thought of as exceptionally
                      > > > deserving.
                      > > >
                      > > > I once had a friend who was extremely devoted to Eckankar, who had
                      > > > lived in a remote area during most of her time as a member, and
                      > > > didn't realize Eckankar's policy that time served as a dues paying
                      > > > member counted toward initiation. As a result, she didn't receive
                      > > > initiations for years do to the fact that she kept forgetting to
                      > > > renew her membership, thinking such things to be of the material
                      > > > worlds! She had no idea such trivialities mattered to the
                      > > omniscient
                      > > > Mahanta! This woman had a life membership (at one time you could
                      > > pay
                      > > > a large one time fee, $2,000, for a membership for life) but was
                      > > > still required to notify Eckankar of her intent to renew annually,
                      > > > though no additional fee was required. She didn't think such
                      > > > formalities were all that important, and as a result, due to a less
                      > > > than exemplary membership record, received no initiations beyond
                      > > the
                      > > > second, despite years of devotion to Eckankar. One often may hear
                      > > > Eckists parroting that such outer initiations matter little, yet
                      > > > privately, most Eckists seem to feel very strongly about the
                      > > > initiations they are awarded.
                      > > >
                      > > > This isn't spoken of very much out in the open in Eckankar, but
                      > > > people such as the woman in the example can become quite
                      > > > disillusioned and depressed over not keeping up with their peers,
                      > > > feeling left behind, unwanted, and forgotten by the Mahanta. They
                      > > see
                      > > > others who are seemingly less deserving receiving initiations,
                      > > > whereas they, despite being very devoted to Eckankar and the
                      > > > associated disciplines, seem to fall hopelessly behind. Due to
                      > > > Eckankar's policy that one not ever request initiations, many
                      > > suffer
                      > > > in silence, sensing justifiably that something isn't quite right,
                      > > yet
                      > > > fear to even ask about the possibility of an error. In many cases,
                      > > > even when they do ask, they face a stony silence from the org, or
                      > > are
                      > > > told they are being "tested" spiritually, when all that is needed
                      > > is
                      > > > a quick check of the record. This is one of the way's such a system
                      > > > can inflict undue pain upon its members, and is one reason I am
                      > > > taking the time to write about this in detail.
                      > > >
                      > > > Think about the numbers involved in the initiation approval
                      > > process.
                      > > > If there are, as claimed, 50,000 members in the org, and each is
                      > > > considered for an initiation every five years or so, then that
                      > > would
                      > > > average 10,000 per year, or 833 per month, or about 40 per day
                      > > > (excluding weekends), or about one initiation to be approved every
                      > > 10
                      > > > to 15 minutes in an average eight hour day. Klemp would have to
                      > > work
                      > > > full time on initiations every day for the rest of his life to
                      > > spend
                      > > > 10 to 15 minutes every five years on the "individual" member (do
                      > > the
                      > > > math and see for yourself). Klemp has said that he checks the inner
                      > > > akashic and soul records to make such a choice. Remember that this
                      > > > would have to be done to merely consider a person for initiation,
                      > > > that is, to give each chela the individual attention and
                      > > > consideration that is due, whether or not the chela is actually
                      > > > approved for initiation.
                      > > >
                      > > > Klemp would have to live out of the body most of his life to
                      > > > accomplish such a feat. He would have no time for seminars, writing
                      > > > his constant supply of books, writing his speeches, eating,
                      > > drinking,
                      > > > sleeping, going to meetings, running the corporation, etc. For
                      > > those
                      > > > who argue that such reading of soul records does not take time,
                      > > > consider that Klemp has discontinued private requests for
                      > > > consultations to do soul readings because, according to him, it
                      > > takes
                      > > > hours to accomplish an accurate reading of the soul records of just
                      > > > one person. Thus, a mere fifteen minutes would not be sufficient to
                      > > > approve an initiation, even if he did spend all day, every day of
                      > > his
                      > > > life approving initiations. Think about this!
                      > > >
                      > > > From this it can be deduced that Klemp has, for the most part,
                      > > > nothing to do with the initiations, other than, perhaps, performing
                      > > a
                      > > > perfunctory blessing of them in the eckankar offices to fool the
                      > > > membership. He simply doesn't have the time.
                      > > >
                      > > > Remember this key point: It's a fact that someone would have to act
                      > > > on the physical plane to approve the initiations and physically
                      > > send
                      > > > out pink slips. No matter how you slice it, this person (or more
                      > > > likely, persons) is not the Living Eck Master, but rather, several
                      > > > paid employees.
                      > > >
                      > > > Some people argue that the true initiations are "inner," and
                      > > > therefore the outer initiations are not the true initiations. The
                      > > > fallacy in the logic of this argument is that Twitchell originally
                      > > > stated that the inner initiation comes before the outer, due to the
                      > > > principle of "as above, so below," which means that outer events
                      > > > occur on the inner first, manifesting outwardly later. Klemp has
                      > > > attempted to confuse people by reversing this, claiming that it
                      > > takes
                      > > > time to grow into an initiation. But here Klemp contradicts
                      > > himself,
                      > > > since Klemp has expressly stated in writing that he personally
                      > > > approves the outer initiations by reading the inner soul records.
                      > > > This means the person receiving the outer initiation would have,
                      > > > according to Klemp's own written statements, already have the inner
                      > > > preparation, and thus would have received the inner initiation. It
                      > > is
                      > > > absurd to conclude that Klemp, in taking time to read the soul
                      > > > records to approve the outer initiation, would not include as part
                      > > of
                      > > > that time and effort the giving of the actual inner initiation, if
                      > > > after having read the soul records it was determined the chela was
                      > > > eligible for the initiation. Thus, the logic that the inner and
                      > > outer
                      > > > initiations are separate and not inextricably linked is denied in
                      > > > statements by Eckankar's only presumed authority, the Living Eck
                      > > > Master, Harold Klemp. And the obvious fact is, Klemp would not have
                      > > > the requisite time that he has stated is necessary to read so many
                      > > > soul records each day of his life. He has been caught up in his own
                      > > > contradictory statements and revealed himself to be a fraud.
                      > > >
                      > > > Thus, the initiations are entirely bogus. They represent nothing
                      > > more
                      > > > than organizational status. Observe the behavior of the online
                      > > > clergy. These are not enlightened beings. They are ordinary people
                      > > > caught up in the throes of everyday life, like most people are in
                      > > the
                      > > > rest of the world.
                      > > >
                      > > > Kent
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • ctecvie
                      I know an ex-eckist who found David Lane and left the teachings silently. He began to translate David Lane s book into German and then the pink slip for his
                      Message 10 of 11 , Feb 6, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I know an ex-eckist who found David Lane and left the teachings
                        silently. He began to translate David Lane's book into German and
                        then the pink slip for his next initiation arrived.

                        Perhaps the all-knowing mahanta thought this accomplishment was worth
                        a reward! LOL!

                        Ingrid

                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                        <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > The arbitrary way in which the ECK Initiations come to
                        > ECKists proves that there is no inner communication
                        > with their Master. There is no equality of consciousness
                        > within the same Circle of Initiation! It's not even close!
                        > Therefore, how can there be any truth in the words:
                        > 'I am always with you.' It's a lie that innocent people
                        > have willingly bought into because they want and need
                        > to believe in the lie of religion. And, the Eckankar religion
                        > may be different and unique and give more answers when
                        > compared to most other religions, but that doesn't mean
                        > it's all true. Except for the LEM/Mahanta, the Initiations,
                        > and the ECK Masters much of what Twitchell "compiled"
                        > has some merit for Soul's individual investigation/journey.
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                        >
                        >
                        > pretujari wrote:
                        > > >
                        >
                        > Hello,
                        > This reminds me of two scenerios regarding the initiations. One was
                        > to do with a couple. The husband was really perplexed when the pink
                        > slip came for him and the wife for their 4th. According to the man,
                        > he never understood why his wife also received the 4th because she
                        > was quarrellsome, never practiced her spiritual exercises, nor had
                        > much time for Eckankar.He told me this when I explained the truth
                        > about the eckankar initiations to him.
                        > >
                        >
                        > The other was an elderly woman who was very close to me.
                        > She confided in me amidst tears that she had stayed in the
                        > 3rd initiation for years. As she cried while narrating this, she
                        > wondered why and what she had done, since others who came
                        > after her had bypassed her in initiations. Unfortunately, she
                        > did not live long enough to know the truth. Am sure all has been
                        > made clear to her on the other side.
                        > Pretujari.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        **********************************************************************
                        *
                        > >
                        > Pretujari, this story about the elderly woman demonstrates why
                        > eckankar is not a benign cult! It is really sad that she was so
                        > tormented about making those initiation levels up until her time
                        > of passing! Shame on Klemp and his fraudulent org for sucking
                        > the life out of innocent Souls who just want to achieve a sincere
                        > connection with God! I feel both sad and angry to think of this
                        > woman's sorrow--it's not a good way to live one's life feeling
                        passed
                        > over like that!
                        > >
                        > Klemp will ultimately pay for his lies and deceptions! He talks
                        about
                        > fear so I have to wonder if he doesn't suffer from real fears in
                        > knowing that he has been committing these great spiritual crimes?
                        > >
                        > Eckankar is not harmless in that it does damage Souls.
                        > >
                        > Mish
                        >
                        > >
                        **********************************************************************
                        ****
                        > tianyue wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > Ex-Initiator's Guide to Initiations
                        > > > >
                        > [I've posted an earlier version of this before, and with the
                        > discussion of secret words that has been ongoing on another group,
                        > I thought this might be a good time to repost this. I've revised
                        > this, and added rebuttles to comments Eckists have made to the
                        original.-
                        > K.A.]
                        >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > When I received the sixth initiation, I had essentially
                        already
                        > > > > decided to leave Eckankar. I was still hanging on out of some
                        > > > slight
                        > > > > uncertainty, and also had decided to maintain my membership
                        due to
                        > > > > the fact that my partner, Lisa, still remained loyal to
                        Eckankar. A
                        > > > > year or two had passed while I was in this state of serious
                        doubt
                        > > > and
                        > > > > skepticism, when the pink slip for the sixth initiation came.
                        I was
                        > > > > surprised to say the least. Yet I wasn't too surprised. This
                        > > > > confirmed what I already suspected: Initiations are not
                        overseen or
                        > > > > approved by a Mahanta or some omniscient being, but by a
                        computer,
                        > > > > with the assistance of initiate reports, and recommendations
                        by the
                        > > > > local Resa and other local High Initiates. I remained in
                        Eckankar
                        > > > for
                        > > > > years after this, until the day my mate felt as I did, and we
                        both
                        > > > > resigned.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Lest there are those in Eckankar who don't yet know this,
                        lists are
                        > > > > periodically sent out with names generated by a computer to
                        the
                        > > > state
                        > > > > Resa (Regional Eck Spiritual Aid), who confers with local
                        High
                        > > > > Initiates to either recommend or not, an initiation (Klemp
                        himself
                        > > > > wrote of the computers producing the initiation lists a while
                        back
                        > > > as
                        > > > > I recall). Around the time I left Eckankar, most Eckists were
                        > > > > automatically placed on the list every four or five years or
                        so. If
                        > > > > for some reason an Eckist was denied, they would usually show
                        up
                        > > > > again on the next year's list. Local H.I.'s in my area
                        (including
                        > > > > myself) would routinely talk over the names on the list via
                        the
                        > > > > telephone, and give their recommendations to the Resa
                        according to
                        > > > > each chela's loyalty and degree of outer service to the org.
                        Those
                        > > > > who were especially "troublesome" could be denied the
                        initiation.
                        > > > The
                        > > > > Resa emphasized loyalty as the most important trait. The
                        results
                        > > > from
                        > > > > the Resa are sent back to Minneapolis HQ where assistants
                        appointed
                        > > > > by Harold approve or deny the initiation based on such things
                        as
                        > > > the
                        > > > > time served as a dues paying member, the Resa
                        recommendations, and
                        > > > > initiate reports. Some, including myself, have observed that
                        > > > initiate
                        > > > > reports (especially those which are positive or are written
                        in
                        > > > praise
                        > > > > of the org) definitely can play a role in the initiation
                        approval
                        > > > > process.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Despite this, few people were denied an initiation if they
                        were on
                        > > > > the list. Eckankar has a very liberal policy toward
                        initiations. I
                        > > > > noticed that those who followed the disciplines well fared no
                        > > > better
                        > > > > or worse than those who didn't. I noticed people who smoked,
                        drank
                        > > > or
                        > > > > never did their exercises stood just as great a chance of
                        receiving
                        > > > > the fifth initiation as anyone <G>. More than anything, the
                        > > > > initiations were awarded based on time as a member. The rate
                        at
                        > > > which
                        > > > > initiations were received could be accelerated or delayed
                        based on
                        > > > > the chelas relationship with local H.I.'s and, especially,
                        the
                        > > > state
                        > > > > Resa, who has a great deal of influence in such matters.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > And one other thing is clear: Those who do not substantially
                        > > > conform
                        > > > > to the expectations of the group are the ones most likely to
                        be
                        > > > > denied an initiation. Despite this, the H.I.'s or Resa's in
                        > > > different
                        > > > > areas may vary in their tolerance levels, which accounts for
                        the
                        > > > > stories heard about individuals who never received
                        initiations in
                        > > > one
                        > > > > locale suddenly begin to receive them after moving to another
                        area.
                        > > > > Also, I've witnessed initiations being approved after three
                        or four
                        > > > > H.I's gave their unsolicited recommendations to Spiritual
                        Services
                        > > > on
                        > > > > behalf of certain chelas who were thought of as exceptionally
                        > > > > deserving.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I once had a friend who was extremely devoted to Eckankar,
                        who had
                        > > > > lived in a remote area during most of her time as a member,
                        and
                        > > > > didn't realize Eckankar's policy that time served as a dues
                        paying
                        > > > > member counted toward initiation. As a result, she didn't
                        receive
                        > > > > initiations for years do to the fact that she kept forgetting
                        to
                        > > > > renew her membership, thinking such things to be of the
                        material
                        > > > > worlds! She had no idea such trivialities mattered to the
                        > > > omniscient
                        > > > > Mahanta! This woman had a life membership (at one time you
                        could
                        > > > pay
                        > > > > a large one time fee, $2,000, for a membership for life) but
                        was
                        > > > > still required to notify Eckankar of her intent to renew
                        annually,
                        > > > > though no additional fee was required. She didn't think such
                        > > > > formalities were all that important, and as a result, due to
                        a less
                        > > > > than exemplary membership record, received no initiations
                        beyond
                        > > > the
                        > > > > second, despite years of devotion to Eckankar. One often may
                        hear
                        > > > > Eckists parroting that such outer initiations matter little,
                        yet
                        > > > > privately, most Eckists seem to feel very strongly about the
                        > > > > initiations they are awarded.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > This isn't spoken of very much out in the open in Eckankar,
                        but
                        > > > > people such as the woman in the example can become quite
                        > > > > disillusioned and depressed over not keeping up with their
                        peers,
                        > > > > feeling left behind, unwanted, and forgotten by the Mahanta.
                        They
                        > > > see
                        > > > > others who are seemingly less deserving receiving
                        initiations,
                        > > > > whereas they, despite being very devoted to Eckankar and the
                        > > > > associated disciplines, seem to fall hopelessly behind. Due
                        to
                        > > > > Eckankar's policy that one not ever request initiations, many
                        > > > suffer
                        > > > > in silence, sensing justifiably that something isn't quite
                        right,
                        > > > yet
                        > > > > fear to even ask about the possibility of an error. In many
                        cases,
                        > > > > even when they do ask, they face a stony silence from the
                        org, or
                        > > > are
                        > > > > told they are being "tested" spiritually, when all that is
                        needed
                        > > > is
                        > > > > a quick check of the record. This is one of the way's such a
                        system
                        > > > > can inflict undue pain upon its members, and is one reason I
                        am
                        > > > > taking the time to write about this in detail.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Think about the numbers involved in the initiation approval
                        > > > process.
                        > > > > If there are, as claimed, 50,000 members in the org, and each
                        is
                        > > > > considered for an initiation every five years or so, then
                        that
                        > > > would
                        > > > > average 10,000 per year, or 833 per month, or about 40 per
                        day
                        > > > > (excluding weekends), or about one initiation to be approved
                        every
                        > > > 10
                        > > > > to 15 minutes in an average eight hour day. Klemp would have
                        to
                        > > > work
                        > > > > full time on initiations every day for the rest of his life
                        to
                        > > > spend
                        > > > > 10 to 15 minutes every five years on the "individual" member
                        (do
                        > > > the
                        > > > > math and see for yourself). Klemp has said that he checks the
                        inner
                        > > > > akashic and soul records to make such a choice. Remember that
                        this
                        > > > > would have to be done to merely consider a person for
                        initiation,
                        > > > > that is, to give each chela the individual attention and
                        > > > > consideration that is due, whether or not the chela is
                        actually
                        > > > > approved for initiation.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Klemp would have to live out of the body most of his life to
                        > > > > accomplish such a feat. He would have no time for seminars,
                        writing
                        > > > > his constant supply of books, writing his speeches, eating,
                        > > > drinking,
                        > > > > sleeping, going to meetings, running the corporation, etc.
                        For
                        > > > those
                        > > > > who argue that such reading of soul records does not take
                        time,
                        > > > > consider that Klemp has discontinued private requests for
                        > > > > consultations to do soul readings because, according to him,
                        it
                        > > > takes
                        > > > > hours to accomplish an accurate reading of the soul records
                        of just
                        > > > > one person. Thus, a mere fifteen minutes would not be
                        sufficient to
                        > > > > approve an initiation, even if he did spend all day, every
                        day of
                        > > > his
                        > > > > life approving initiations. Think about this!
                        > > > >
                        > > > > From this it can be deduced that Klemp has, for the most
                        part,
                        > > > > nothing to do with the initiations, other than, perhaps,
                        performing
                        > > > a
                        > > > > perfunctory blessing of them in the eckankar offices to fool
                        the
                        > > > > membership. He simply doesn't have the time.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Remember this key point: It's a fact that someone would have
                        to act
                        > > > > on the physical plane to approve the initiations and
                        physically
                        > > > send
                        > > > > out pink slips. No matter how you slice it, this person (or
                        more
                        > > > > likely, persons) is not the Living Eck Master, but rather,
                        several
                        > > > > paid employees.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Some people argue that the true initiations are "inner," and
                        > > > > therefore the outer initiations are not the true initiations.
                        The
                        > > > > fallacy in the logic of this argument is that Twitchell
                        originally
                        > > > > stated that the inner initiation comes before the outer, due
                        to the
                        > > > > principle of "as above, so below," which means that outer
                        events
                        > > > > occur on the inner first, manifesting outwardly later. Klemp
                        has
                        > > > > attempted to confuse people by reversing this, claiming that
                        it
                        > > > takes
                        > > > > time to grow into an initiation. But here Klemp contradicts
                        > > > himself,
                        > > > > since Klemp has expressly stated in writing that he
                        personally
                        > > > > approves the outer initiations by reading the inner soul
                        records.
                        > > > > This means the person receiving the outer initiation would
                        have,
                        > > > > according to Klemp's own written statements, already have the
                        inner
                        > > > > preparation, and thus would have received the inner
                        initiation. It
                        > > > is
                        > > > > absurd to conclude that Klemp, in taking time to read the
                        soul
                        > > > > records to approve the outer initiation, would not include as
                        part
                        > > > of
                        > > > > that time and effort the giving of the actual inner
                        initiation, if
                        > > > > after having read the soul records it was determined the
                        chela was
                        > > > > eligible for the initiation. Thus, the logic that the inner
                        and
                        > > > outer
                        > > > > initiations are separate and not inextricably linked is
                        denied in
                        > > > > statements by Eckankar's only presumed authority, the Living
                        Eck
                        > > > > Master, Harold Klemp. And the obvious fact is, Klemp would
                        not have
                        > > > > the requisite time that he has stated is necessary to read so
                        many
                        > > > > soul records each day of his life. He has been caught up in
                        his own
                        > > > > contradictory statements and revealed himself to be a fraud.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Thus, the initiations are entirely bogus. They represent
                        nothing
                        > > > more
                        > > > > than organizational status. Observe the behavior of the
                        online
                        > > > > clergy. These are not enlightened beings. They are ordinary
                        people
                        > > > > caught up in the throes of everyday life, like most people
                        are in
                        > > > the
                        > > > > rest of the world.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Kent
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • prometheus_973
                        Hi Ingrid, The ECK Initiations along with all of the other inner teachings and dogma of ECKANKAR are just PRETEND! Klemp has stated: Acting AS IF is a
                        Message 11 of 11 , Feb 7, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hi Ingrid,
                          The ECK Initiations along with all of the other "inner"
                          teachings and dogma of ECKANKAR are just PRETEND!
                          Klemp has stated: "Acting 'AS IF' is a principle of ECK.
                          You establish a goal, then ACT AS IF the WISH is fulfilled
                          and the DREAM completed. In this way you CREATE your
                          OWN world." H.K. The Dream Master, pg. 81 [My caps]

                          It's no wonder that these gullible and spiritually immature
                          ECKists continue to accept an authority figure over them.
                          At the same time they fear taking on responsibility for their
                          own thoughts, words. feelings, actions, and reactions. They
                          need a fake Mahanta because they are weak and immature
                          Souls.

                          Prometheus

                          ctecvie wrote:
                          >
                          I know an ex-eckist who found David Lane and left the teachings
                          silently. He began to translate David Lane's book into German and
                          then the pink slip for his next initiation arrived.
                          >
                          Perhaps the all-knowing mahanta thought this accomplishment
                          was worth a reward! LOL!
                          >
                          Ingrid
                          >
                          prometheus wrote:
                          > >
                          The arbitrary way in which the ECK Initiations come to
                          ECKists proves that there is no inner communication
                          with their Master. There is no equality of consciousness
                          within the same Circle of Initiation! It's not even close!
                          Therefore, how can there be any truth in the words:
                          'I am always with you.' It's a lie that innocent people
                          have willingly bought into because they want and need
                          to believe in the lie of religion. And, the Eckankar religion
                          may be different and unique and give more answers when
                          compared to most other religions, but that doesn't mean
                          it's all true. Except for the LEM/Mahanta, the Initiations,
                          and the ECK Masters much of what Twitchell "compiled"
                          has some merit for Soul's individual investigation/journey.
                          > >
                          Prometheus
                          > >
                          > >
                          pretujari wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > >
                          Hello,
                          This reminds me of two scenerios regarding the initiations. One was
                          to do with a couple. The husband was really perplexed when the pink
                          slip came for him and the wife for their 4th. According to the man,
                          he never understood why his wife also received the 4th because she
                          was quarrellsome, never practiced her spiritual exercises, nor had
                          much time for Eckankar.He told me this when I explained the truth
                          about the eckankar initiations to him.
                          > > >
                          The other was an elderly woman who was very close to me.
                          She confided in me amidst tears that she had stayed in the
                          3rd initiation for years. As she cried while narrating this, she
                          wondered why and what she had done, since others who came
                          after her had bypassed her in initiations. Unfortunately, she
                          did not live long enough to know the truth. Am sure all has been
                          made clear to her on the other side.
                          Pretujari.
                          **********************************************************************

                          > > >
                          Pretujari, this story about the elderly woman demonstrates why
                          eckankar is not a benign cult! It is really sad that she was so
                          tormented about making those initiation levels up until her time
                          of passing! Shame on Klemp and his fraudulent org for sucking
                          the life out of innocent Souls who just want to achieve a sincere
                          connection with God! I feel both sad and angry to think of this
                          woman's sorrow--it's not a good way to live one's life feeling
                          passed over like that!
                          > > >
                          Klemp will ultimately pay for his lies and deceptions! He talks
                          about fear so I have to wonder if he doesn't suffer from real fears
                          in knowing that he has been committing these great spiritual
                          crimes?
                          > > >
                          Eckankar is not harmless in that it does damage Souls.
                          > > >
                          Mish


                          **************************************************************

                          tianyue wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          Ex-Initiator's Guide to Initiations
                          > > > > >
                          [I've posted an earlier version of this before, and with the
                          discussion of secret words that has been ongoing on another group,
                          I thought this might be a good time to repost this. I've revised
                          this, and added rebuttles to comments Eckists have made to the
                          original.-
                          K.A.]
                          > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          When I received the sixth initiation, I had essentially
                          already decided to leave Eckankar. I was still hanging on out
                          of some slight uncertainty, and also had decided to maintain
                          my membership due to the fact that my partner, Lisa, still
                          remained loyal to Eckankar. A year or two had passed while
                          I was in this state of serious doubt and skepticism, when the
                          pink slip for the sixth initiation came. I was surprised to say
                          the least. Yet I wasn't too surprised. This confirmed what I
                          already suspected: Initiations are not overseen or approved
                          by a Mahanta or some omniscient being, but by a computer,
                          with the assistance of initiate reports, and recommendations
                          by the local Resa and other local High Initiates. I remained in
                          Eckankar for years after this, until the day my mate felt as I did,
                          and we both resigned.

                          Lest there are those in Eckankar who don't yet know this,
                          lists are periodically sent out with names generated by a
                          computer to the state Resa (Regional Eck Spiritual Aid),
                          who confers with local High Initiates to either recommend
                          or not, an initiation (Klemp himself wrote of the computers
                          producing the initiation lists a while back as I recall).
                          [snip]
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