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Re: Some of My Thoughts on Conspiracy Theories, Etc.

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  • truthdecider
    Hello Prometheus! I was originally going to respond to both your post and Mish s post about David Icke with one response. However, I found that there was too
    Message 1 of 15 , Jul 1, 2005
      Hello Prometheus!

      I was originally going to respond to both your post and Mish's post
      about David Icke with one response. However, I found that there was
      too much to cover if I did it that way, and the post would have
      gotten too long. So I will respond to Mish's post separately.

      Firstly, I agree that David Icke definitely goes too far. He can't
      possibly expect most people to go along with the whole shape-
      shifting reptilian thing, even if he himself does actually believe
      this. And he should realize that. Also, I feel that a lot of his
      books are redundant and repetitive, and dwell too much on his
      perceived negativity in the world. Because of things like this, one
      certainly has to wonder what his motives really are.

      However, if you strip away all of the reptilian stuff, his over
      stressing of negativity as he perceives it, and his repetitiveness,
      his essential message, as I see it, is still good. And his essential
      message is that we live on a planet that is largely controlled by
      people in power who are, for the most part, negative, but it really
      doesn't matter, because we are all eternal, immortal spiritual
      beings, and we only need to reawaken ourselves to this fact to free
      ourselves from this trap, which is actually self created anyway. He
      further states that those negative people in power are actually just
      extensions or reflections of the negative aspects of ourselves.
      Hence, the awakening of our true, highest nature not only frees us
      spiritually, but helps the world at large become more spiritually
      free due to the synergistic effect this has on dissipating this self
      created negativity that we have all manifested, due to the fact that
      the negative aspects of our lower natures have had too strong a say
      in things for too many lifetimes on this planet.

      This essential message of David Icke's is not too different from the
      essential message of many other spiritual teachings that are
      considered very legitimate by many people.

      So, in a nutshell, I feel that his essential points are quite valid,
      but his approach to communicating this, and his over dwelling on
      certain aspects of his perceptions of negativity leave a lot to be
      desired, and do somewhat call his agenda into question.

      Prometheus, you wrote: "These Icke/TRANCE believers are liken to a
      drowning man grabbing at straws to stay afloat! They have no other
      valid belief system to explain why things are as they are. They want
      to believe in aliens and mysteries closer to discovery and
      understanding (in their minds) which bolster their ego's survival
      mechanisms. True spiritual knowingness is beyond their reach due to
      a wide variety of factors, therefore, they seek a new
      rationalization, explanation, and purpose. But, this is merely a
      means of cementing themselves into a new box filled with even more
      illusions and delusions. A total belief in Icke and those with
      similar beliefs and agendas will possibly prevent (for those
      believers) true critical thinking from ever being able to take
      place."

      I don't think that I would say that everyone who takes David Icke
      seriously can be put into this category, anymore than I would say
      that all Roman Catholics (one of the worst and most destructive
      cults of all time, in my opinion) could be put into this category.
      If you step back from the "trees" of the Roman Catholic Church, and
      view the whole "forest", you could certainly say the same things
      that you said about David Icke's followers about all Roman
      Catholics. Just replace the words "aliens and mysteries" in your
      above narrative with "Jesus Christ and the Saints", and the
      word "Icke" with "Roman Catholic".

      But this category that you put all of David Icke's followers into
      would certainly not apply to all Roman Catholics either.

      Prometheus, you wrote "Icke presents a schizophrenic view of world
      society by
      presenting the reptilian/alien mind control-Jewish/Rothschild
      banking conspiracy agenda, etc., etc., but also states that it is
      also a "The Matrix" like illusion! If it is all illusion then does
      the rest really matter?"

      This whole idea of everything being a grand illusion, and yet still
      being important and mattering is not a new concept. It is very
      prevalent in some Eastern philosophies, and is certainly not unique
      to David Icke. This is a common concept throughout much of both the
      Zen and Taoist teachings in particular. It is understood in these
      teachings that the entire universe is a self created illusion, which
      doesn't exist in the sense that we have been taught to believe that
      it does, and yet still matters for the education and spiritual
      growth of the souls that dwell there.

      The highest form of realization is taught to be a state of beingness
      where one has fully realized this illusory nature of life, and yet
      consciously enters back into the illusion to help all the other
      beings that are still trapped in it. This is what David Icke is
      talking about here.

      You say that Icke is basically anti-American. I don't think that he
      is at all. To me, being anti-American means that you don't believe
      in, or you go against the Constitution of the United States. I don't
      see where David Icke has done that. By this definition, the whole
      Bush administration is anti-American, and in my strong opinion, Bush
      should be impeached and removed from office for committing war
      crimes and going against the United States Constitution. Believe me,
      I am a very patriotic man by the true definition of the term.

      And lastly, you wrote: "Intuition, insight,
      clarity, love and joy are all factors that I experience in my life.
      Where are these in the world of David Icke and company? Nowhere!"

      Actually, David Icke's writings stress all of the above quite a bit.
      He speaks at length about developing your intuitive faculties, and
      living your life from the vantage point of who you really are: A
      divine, eternal, immortal, and infinitely loving being that is
      actually already free from it's self created traps in the lower
      worlds, and is already dwelling in the infinite love and joy of it's
      own Beingness.

      Anyway, thanks for your insights on this, even though we obviously
      have very different opinions about it!

      Take care!


      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
      <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
      > Hello Truthdecider,
      >
      > Welcome to the site!
      >
      > In regard to Icke, he does go after international bankers and
      Jewish
      > leaders by claiming that the Jewish race is just a conspiracy to
      rob
      > Gentiles of their money... but then claims that he does not hate
      > the "ordinary" Jew. Icke is basically anti-U.S., anti-Semitic, but
      > pro Al-Jazeera. Icke also makes a lot of wild claims with no
      > validation and mixes these with some claims grounded in fact.
      Funny,
      > how he supports the TRANCEformation of America con to validate his
      > con. Usually Icke just does a fear mongering reptilian rehash on
      his
      > books. Icke presents a schizophrenic view of world society by
      > presenting the reptilian/alien mind control-Jewish/Rothschild
      > banking conspiracy agenda, etc., etc., but also states that it is
      > also a "The Matrix" like illusion! If it is all illusion then does
      > the rest really matter? Anyway, it is obviously a con and a lower
      > consciousness and negative belief system that Icke has created for
      > those who need to have a some sort of a belief system, purpose,
      and
      > understanding for the lack of control they feel. Some Icke
      followers
      > have never had a true spiritual experience, and are therefore
      > seeking a new secular religion based in conspiracy (which do exist
      > and can be proven). These Icke/TRANCE believers are liken to a
      > drowning man grabbing at straws to stay afloat! They have no other
      > valid belief system to explain why things are as they are. They
      want
      > to believe in aliens and mysteries closer to discovery and
      > understanding (in their minds) which bolster their ego's survival
      > mechanisms. True spiritual knowingness is beyond their reach due
      to
      > a wide varity of factors, therefore, they seek a new
      > rationalization, explaination, and purpose. But, this is merely a
      > means of cementing themselves into a new box filled with even more
      > illusions and delusions. A total belief in Icke and those with
      > similar beliefs and agendas will possibly prevent (for those
      > believers) true critical thinking from ever being able to take
      > place.
      >
      > I still view all of this as a testing ground for Soul, and I have
      > had spiritual experiences to validate this! Intuition, insight,
      > clarity, love and joy are all factors that I experience in my
      life.
      > Where are these in the world of David Icke and company? Nowhere!
      >
      > Anyway, it's just my opinion. However, I would also like for you
      to
      > put your HCS post on Surat Shabda Yoga on this site. I enjoyed
      that
      > post and have some comments that I'd like to make.
      >
      > Thanks again for posting. I hope you will continue to participate
      on
      > this site.
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "truthdecider"
      > <truthdecider@y...> wrote:
      > > Hello All,
      > >
      > > I posted most of this over on the ET site, but I thought I would
      > put
      > > it here as well, seeing as how there has been considerable
      > > discussion about these topics here as well.
      > >
      > > My search into the ideas of the possibility of Aliens,
      government
      > > coverups, etc. started after having very direct
      > > experiences with spacecraft that defy all known laws of physics
      as
      > we
      > > have been taught them, and then a lot of harrassment by some very
      > > nasty people when I asked too many questions about it all.
      > >
      > > There is so much information, mis-information, and deliberate
      > > dis-information on the internet about all of these groups and
      > topics
      > > that one ultimately needs to trust their own intuition as far as
      > who
      > > they believe to be speaking at a level that is somewhat close to
      > the
      > > truth.
      > >
      > > For example, Mish mentions that she read that David Icke is a
      Neo-
      > > Nazi. But how do we know that what Mish read about this is valid
      > > information?
      > > There are some web sites out there that state this,
      > > and then try and support and validate that position. I've read
      all
      > of
      > > this as well. However, we need to remember that there are groups
      of
      > > very powerful people in existance that could could decide to
      target
      > > even the sweetest old man in the world, and manufacture and plant
      > > enough evidence on him that would convince the rest of the world
      > that
      > > he was a viscious child molester overnight. If these people
      wanted
      > > this old man out of the way for some reason, if they perceived
      him
      > as
      > > a threat to whatever their agenda is, then they would do this to
      > him
      > > in a heartbeat.
      > >
      > > In my opinion, the reason that this kind of overt action isn't
      > > taken against someone like Icke is that he is way too public
      > already,
      > > and too many of his supporters are aware of how these kinds of
      > setups
      > > are orchestrated, and would all work very hard to expose the
      > > manufacured evidence. But the poor little old man, or woman, or
      > > college kid that just one day decides to start voicing things
      that
      > > this group of people feels is too damaging to their agenda can be
      > > setup like this very easily.
      > >
      > > But manufacturing falsehoods and stories about someone, and
      posting
      > > this false info in newsgroups, BBS's and/or setting up web sites
      to
      > > spread such dis-information is very easy to do to target anyone.
      > >
      > > So, to build on Mish's very good point, we can't take ANY of this
      > > stuff that we read on the internet about any of these groups or
      > > people
      > > at face value. We need to trust our own intuition, which is
      exactly
      > > what I do.
      > >
      > > Now, having said all of this, I need to make it crystal clear
      that
      > > I am in no way sure at this point that I trust David Icke,
      > Cassiopia,
      > > HCS, or ANY of these groups. My jury is still out on all of
      them,
      > as
      > > these things, even with intuition, can take time.
      > >
      > > I am only very sure of three things:
      > >
      > > 1. Something is VERY WRONG with our government today. You can
      even
      > > see this in the recent news about some of the laws that are being
      > > passed with regards to our personal property rights, our right to
      > > privacy, etc.
      > >
      > > 2. There exists on this planet technology and scientific
      > > discoveries that go way beyond what the general public knows
      > about. I
      > > don't honestly know if these were developed here on earth, or if
      > they
      > > are extraterrestrial in nature, but I do know first hand that
      they
      > > exist.
      > >
      > > 3. There are people that very much don't want these technologies
      > > and discoveries to become public knowledge. I don't know exactly
      > why
      > > that is, but I also know first hand that this is true.
      > >
      > > Beyond being sure that the above three things are true, I am even
      > > more sure that I am an eternal, immortal being, as we all are.
      > This I
      > > also know from direct experience, as I'm sure many others here
      do.
      > >
      > > It is my goal and journey to find answers to the three things
      > > mentioned above, as I feel it is vital to spirituality. Just as
      > > vital,
      > > if not more vital than discovering the lies and deceptions that
      may
      > > exist in any number of religious and spiritual paths and
      teachings.
      > >
      > > However, it is in no way my desire to convince anyone else that
      > > these things are spiritually important for them. And I am
      certainly
      > > not trying to convince anyone else about any particular groups
      > ideas,
      > > as I don't even know which, if any, groups I really trust at
      this
      > > point.
      > >
      > > If it is felt that there is no place for any further discussion
      or
      > > exploration in this group about any of the above mentioned
      ideas,
      > and
      > > how they relate to spirituality, than I can assure everyone that
      it
      > > will not be brought up again.
      > >
      > > With best regards,
      > >
      > > Truthdecider
    • prometheus_973
      ... possibly expect most people to go along with the whole shape- shifting reptilian thing, even if he himself does actually believe this. And he should
      Message 2 of 15 , Jul 1, 2005
        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "truthdecider"
        <truthdecider@y...> wrote:
        > Hello Prometheus!

        >Firstly, I agree that David Icke definitely goes too far. He can't
        possibly expect most people to go along with the whole shape-
        shifting reptilian thing, even if he himself does actually believe
        this. And he should realize that. Also, I feel that a lot of his
        books are redundant and repetitive, and dwell too much on his
        perceived negativity in the world. Because of things like this, one
        certainly has to wonder what his motives really are.

        >However, if you strip away all of the reptilian stuff, his over
        stressing of negativity as he perceives it, and his repetitiveness,
        his essential message, as I see it, is still good.


        I would also include stripping away the false "Protocols of the
        Elders of Zion" along with the reptilian stuff!


        >And his essential message is that we live on a planet that is
        largely controlled by people in power who are, for the most part,
        negative, but it really doesn't matter, because we are all eternal,
        immortal spiritual beings, and we only need to reawaken ourselves to
        this fact to free ourselves from this trap, which is actually self
        created anyway.


        Any true spiritual seeker alreadys knows this! This is what
        Eckankar, Hindus, New Age religions, and many of us already know!
        He's preaching to the choir! So, why are some people
        (on TS/HCS) preaching this message to those who already know it?


        >He further states that those negative people in power are actually
        just extensions or reflections of the negative aspects of ourselves.


        Except, people also need to take ownership and responsibility for
        their actions. It's all a part of our spiritual evolution just as
        karma is. It is a testing ground for Soul.


        >Hence, the awakening of our true, highest nature not only frees us
        spiritually, but helps the world at large become more spiritually
        free due to the synergistic effect this has on dissipating this self
        created negativity that we have all manifested, due to the fact that
        the negative aspects of our lower natures have had too strong a say
        in things for too many lifetimes on this planet.


        Icke should worry more about the negativity, delusion,
        misinformation, and fear that he has generated not only for himself
        but especially for others through his words. Why are those with a
        positive outlook criticized for not buying into the gloom and doom?


        >This essential message of David Icke's is not too different from
        the essential message of many other spiritual teachings that are
        considered very legitimate by many people.


        Icke's essential message is that of fear! Which is nothing new
        either! Just listen to Bush! Icke is no more a "spiritual" teacher
        than Mario is.


        >So, in a nutshell, I feel that his essential points are quite
        valid, but his approach to communicating this, and his over dwelling
        on certain aspects of his perceptions of negativity leave a lot to
        be desired, and do somewhat call his agenda into question.


        In other words Twichell, Gross, and Klemp had similar points and
        (money) agendas except for the reptilians-alien mind control
        conspiracies thing and the "Protocols."


        >This whole idea of everything being a grand illusion, and yet still
        being important and mattering is not a new concept. It is very
        prevalent in some Eastern philosophies, and is certainly not unique
        to David Icke. This is a common concept throughout much of both the
        Zen and Taoist teachings in particular. It is understood in these
        teachings that the entire universe is a self created illusion, which
        doesn't exist in the sense that we have been taught to believe that
        it does, and yet still matters for the education and spiritual
        growth of the souls that dwell there.


        Preceisely! Therefore Icke could have borrowed this concept to give
        his con a spiritual twist. Others have been successful by doing the
        exact same thing! I have to look at the honesty and sanity of Icke
        and those he associates and aligns himself with as well. Icke
        overwhelms people with information and speculation in order to
        confuse them. Eventually one justs gives in and accepts all of the
        mind boggling information as being correct and truthful (a very good
        brain-washing technique). It's a giant leap of faith to believe that
        Icke's motives for selling himself are fair and just, but why give
        anyone that much power over you?


        >The highest form of realization is taught to be a state of
        beingness where one has fully realized this illusory nature of life,
        and yet consciously enters back into the illusion to help all the
        other beings that are still trapped in it. This is what David Icke
        is talking about here.


        Not when Iche is using the false and anti-Jewish "Protocols of the
        Elders of Zion" which led to the Holocaust! That point alone should
        raise the Red Flags to anyone who has any doubts about Icke.


        >You say that Icke is basically anti-American.



        No, I said he is anti-U.S. Icke states that the U.S. government is
        involved with (now and in the past) an alien-reptilian mind control
        conspiracy. Perhaps I should have said that Icke is anti-U.S.
        government.



        >And lastly, you wrote: "Intuition, insight, clarity, love and joy
        are all factors that I experience in my life. Where are these in the
        world of David Icke and company? Nowhere!"

        >Actually, David Icke's writings stress all of the above quite a
        bit. He speaks at length about developing your intuitive faculties,
        and living your life from the vantage point of who you really are: A
        divine, eternal, immortal, and infinitely loving being that is
        actually already free from it's self created traps in the lower
        worlds, and is already dwelling in the infinite love and joy of it's
        own Beingness.


        Yes, talk is cheap! Just look at Klemp! However, Icke is also a liar
        just like his "TRANCE" buddies (Mark Phillips and Cathy O'Brien).
        The self created trap is believing that these people are not only
        being truthful, but that they also impart a "spiritual" message. I
        guess that Hitler and Stalin had spiritual messages too! Right
        judgment and critical thinking have been shut out by these "true
        believers" who ego's are "outside of the box." They have accepted an
        unoriginal, negative, and fictional mixture of partial truths to
        form a new secular religion with Ickeists like themselves.

        Prometheus
      • ctecvie
        Hello Prometheus / Truthdecider, first let me say how much I enjoy the discussions going on here on ESA - very interesting for sure! ... the ... faculties, ...
        Message 3 of 15 , Jul 2, 2005
          Hello Prometheus / Truthdecider,

          first let me say how much I enjoy the discussions going on here on
          ESA - very interesting for sure!

          > >And lastly, you wrote: "Intuition, insight, clarity, love and joy
          > are all factors that I experience in my life. Where are these in
          the
          > world of David Icke and company? Nowhere!"
          >
          > >Actually, David Icke's writings stress all of the above quite a
          > bit. He speaks at length about developing your intuitive
          faculties,
          > and living your life from the vantage point of who you really are:
          A
          > divine, eternal, immortal, and infinitely loving being that is
          > actually already free from it's self created traps in the lower
          > worlds, and is already dwelling in the infinite love and joy of
          it's
          > own Beingness.
          >
          >
          > Yes, talk is cheap! Just look at Klemp! However, Icke is also a
          liar
          > just like his "TRANCE" buddies (Mark Phillips and Cathy O'Brien).
          > The self created trap is believing that these people are not only
          > being truthful, but that they also impart a "spiritual" message. I
          > guess that Hitler and Stalin had spiritual messages too! Right
          > judgment and critical thinking have been shut out by these "true
          > believers" who ego's are "outside of the box." They have accepted
          an
          > unoriginal, negative, and fictional mixture of partial truths to
          > form a new secular religion with Ickeists like themselves.

          You make a very good point here, Prometheus. Hitler had in fact a
          spiritual message, at least that was his point of view. He was in
          fact very interested in spiritual matters and knew a lot about it.
          He knew that the Swastika was a very powerful sign - he just turned
          it around, and thus lost its positive power and turned into a
          negative sign. He knew exactly about how to turn things around to
          influence, brainwash and harm people. Today, we always wonder how
          this could have happened, that so many people believed in Hitler -
          but in fact, it's happening here and now as well. The faith we put
          in so-called spiritual leaders and people like Icke and the
          Tranceformation people - it's the same faith Hitler's followers put
          in Hitler. The difference is only that those people obviously don't
          have as much power as Hitler had,and are not as dangerous as Hitler
          was. But if you strip everything and leave just the faith, then
          that's it.

          Ingrid
        • mishmisha9
          Hello, Prometheus, Truthdecider and Ingrid! Thank you for your posts on this subject which I find interesting as well. The one thing that came to mind for me
          Message 4 of 15 , Jul 2, 2005
            Hello, Prometheus, Truthdecider and Ingrid!

            Thank you for your posts on this subject which I find interesting as
            well. The one thing that came to mind for me is why bother to strip
            the gunk away to find that "truth" Icke has taken from other
            sources to begin with? It seems like a lot of bother in reading
            Icke, and instead one should just go to the originators of this
            truth. Also, what makes Icke so more knowing than you or me or
            anyone else? He seems to have popped up out of nowhere. I can
            imagine that without the Internet sites that he has he would not
            still be so popular or receive the attention he does.

            One's experiences in truth should be able to stand on their own
            merit without the comparison to or approval of someone else.

            Mish

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
            <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
            > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "truthdecider"
            > <truthdecider@y...> wrote:
            > > Hello Prometheus!
            >
            > >Firstly, I agree that David Icke definitely goes too far. He
            can't
            > possibly expect most people to go along with the whole shape-
            > shifting reptilian thing, even if he himself does actually believe
            > this. And he should realize that. Also, I feel that a lot of his
            > books are redundant and repetitive, and dwell too much on his
            > perceived negativity in the world. Because of things like this,
            one
            > certainly has to wonder what his motives really are.
            >
            > >However, if you strip away all of the reptilian stuff, his over
            > stressing of negativity as he perceives it, and his
            repetitiveness,
            > his essential message, as I see it, is still good.
            >
            >
            > I would also include stripping away the false "Protocols of the
            > Elders of Zion" along with the reptilian stuff!
            >
            >
            > >And his essential message is that we live on a planet that is
            > largely controlled by people in power who are, for the most part,
            > negative, but it really doesn't matter, because we are all
            eternal,
            > immortal spiritual beings, and we only need to reawaken ourselves
            to
            > this fact to free ourselves from this trap, which is actually self
            > created anyway.
            >
            >
            > Any true spiritual seeker alreadys knows this! This is what
            > Eckankar, Hindus, New Age religions, and many of us already know!
            > He's preaching to the choir! So, why are some people
            > (on TS/HCS) preaching this message to those who already know it?
            >
            >
            > >He further states that those negative people in power are
            actually
            > just extensions or reflections of the negative aspects of
            ourselves.
            >
            >
            > Except, people also need to take ownership and responsibility for
            > their actions. It's all a part of our spiritual evolution just as
            > karma is. It is a testing ground for Soul.
            >
            >
            > >Hence, the awakening of our true, highest nature not only frees
            us
            > spiritually, but helps the world at large become more spiritually
            > free due to the synergistic effect this has on dissipating this
            self
            > created negativity that we have all manifested, due to the fact
            that
            > the negative aspects of our lower natures have had too strong a
            say
            > in things for too many lifetimes on this planet.
            >
            >
            > Icke should worry more about the negativity, delusion,
            > misinformation, and fear that he has generated not only for
            himself
            > but especially for others through his words. Why are those with a
            > positive outlook criticized for not buying into the gloom and doom?
            >
            >
            > >This essential message of David Icke's is not too different from
            > the essential message of many other spiritual teachings that are
            > considered very legitimate by many people.
            >
            >
            > Icke's essential message is that of fear! Which is nothing new
            > either! Just listen to Bush! Icke is no more a "spiritual" teacher
            > than Mario is.
            >
            >
            > >So, in a nutshell, I feel that his essential points are quite
            > valid, but his approach to communicating this, and his over
            dwelling
            > on certain aspects of his perceptions of negativity leave a lot to
            > be desired, and do somewhat call his agenda into question.
            >
            >
            > In other words Twichell, Gross, and Klemp had similar points and
            > (money) agendas except for the reptilians-alien mind control
            > conspiracies thing and the "Protocols."
            >
            >
            > >This whole idea of everything being a grand illusion, and yet
            still
            > being important and mattering is not a new concept. It is very
            > prevalent in some Eastern philosophies, and is certainly not
            unique
            > to David Icke. This is a common concept throughout much of both
            the
            > Zen and Taoist teachings in particular. It is understood in these
            > teachings that the entire universe is a self created illusion,
            which
            > doesn't exist in the sense that we have been taught to believe
            that
            > it does, and yet still matters for the education and spiritual
            > growth of the souls that dwell there.
            >
            >
            > Preceisely! Therefore Icke could have borrowed this concept to
            give
            > his con a spiritual twist. Others have been successful by doing
            the
            > exact same thing! I have to look at the honesty and sanity of Icke
            > and those he associates and aligns himself with as well. Icke
            > overwhelms people with information and speculation in order to
            > confuse them. Eventually one justs gives in and accepts all of the
            > mind boggling information as being correct and truthful (a very
            good
            > brain-washing technique). It's a giant leap of faith to believe
            that
            > Icke's motives for selling himself are fair and just, but why give
            > anyone that much power over you?
            >
            >
            > >The highest form of realization is taught to be a state of
            > beingness where one has fully realized this illusory nature of
            life,
            > and yet consciously enters back into the illusion to help all the
            > other beings that are still trapped in it. This is what David Icke
            > is talking about here.
            >
            >
            > Not when Iche is using the false and anti-Jewish "Protocols of the
            > Elders of Zion" which led to the Holocaust! That point alone
            should
            > raise the Red Flags to anyone who has any doubts about Icke.
            >
            >
            > >You say that Icke is basically anti-American.
            >
            >
            >
            > No, I said he is anti-U.S. Icke states that the U.S. government is
            > involved with (now and in the past) an alien-reptilian mind
            control
            > conspiracy. Perhaps I should have said that Icke is anti-U.S.
            > government.
            >
            >
            >
            > >And lastly, you wrote: "Intuition, insight, clarity, love and joy
            > are all factors that I experience in my life. Where are these in
            the
            > world of David Icke and company? Nowhere!"
            >
            > >Actually, David Icke's writings stress all of the above quite a
            > bit. He speaks at length about developing your intuitive
            faculties,
            > and living your life from the vantage point of who you really are:
            A
            > divine, eternal, immortal, and infinitely loving being that is
            > actually already free from it's self created traps in the lower
            > worlds, and is already dwelling in the infinite love and joy of
            it's
            > own Beingness.
            >
            >
            > Yes, talk is cheap! Just look at Klemp! However, Icke is also a
            liar
            > just like his "TRANCE" buddies (Mark Phillips and Cathy O'Brien).
            > The self created trap is believing that these people are not only
            > being truthful, but that they also impart a "spiritual" message. I
            > guess that Hitler and Stalin had spiritual messages too! Right
            > judgment and critical thinking have been shut out by these "true
            > believers" who ego's are "outside of the box." They have accepted
            an
            > unoriginal, negative, and fictional mixture of partial truths to
            > form a new secular religion with Ickeists like themselves.
            >
            > Prometheus
          • prometheus_973
            Hi Ingrid, Yes, Icke the pseudo expert and pseudo spiritual master spreads fear and hatred through lies and misinformation much like those infamous figures in
            Message 5 of 15 , Jul 2, 2005
              Hi Ingrid,
              Yes, Icke the pseudo expert and pseudo spiritual master spreads fear
              and hatred through lies and misinformation much like those infamous
              figures in history. Icke doesn't even believe that the Holocaust
              took place! It is interesting how these power and money hungry con
              artists find just the right scam in order to pull in the suckers.
              Did you ever see the movie "The Sting" with Paul Newman and Robert
              Redford? This movie is a blueprint to show how easy it is to trick
              foolish, greedy, and egotistical people with partial truth.

              On another note: Yes, conspiracies have always existed... they too
              are part of the "testing ground for Soul" concept. However, this
              also means that we (Souls) have all lived before which means that we
              have been of different gender, race, religion, etc. , and have been
              both victim and persecutor.

              Betty, over on HCS, makes the statement that "everything is
              spiritual" as a means to justify her and Mario's constant ramblings
              of conspiracy/"spiritual" topics. If one sees life as a testing
              ground for Soul then she is correct, in part, that everything is
              spiritual. However, there is much more to this statement than she is
              apparently capable of seeing. Yes, there is negative and positive
              and something inbetween. But why chose or promote a negative con and
              its fear and hatred spin over the opposite? Where are the spiritual
              lessons to be learned and the responsibility to yourself and to
              others in finding real truth and sharing it (isn't the glass half
              full?). Apparently, Betty and Mario used no caution or
              discrimination in finding their new beliefs. Then again, according
              to their past BB posts, they bought into Icke and others while still
              being happily deluded members of Eckankar (pre-"Confessions"). What
              Icke presents, especially, with the "Protocols" (Illumanati) has
              been proven to be false by real experts. Therefore, how can one
              trust anything else Icke has to say when using any other "facts." As
              I have said before... Icke inundates his readers with so much
              information that most just accept it all as factual. After all, why
              question the words of an expert, or for that matter of a master?

              Of course, Ford has to take some responsibility, as well, for
              allowing the B&M crap to be posted constantly on his BBs. But, more
              on that in another post.

              Prometheus




              >>Yes, talk is cheap! Just look at Klemp! However, Icke is also a
              liar just like his "TRANCE" buddies (Mark Phillips and Cathy
              O'Brien). The self created trap is believing that these people are
              not only being truthful, but that they also impart a "spiritual"
              message. I guess that Hitler and Stalin had spiritual messages too!
              Right judgment and critical thinking have been shut out by
              these "true believers" who ego's are "outside of the box." They have
              accepted an unoriginal, negative, and fictional mixture of partial
              truths to form a new secular religion with Ickeists like themselves.

              > You make a very good point here, Prometheus. Hitler had in fact a
              spiritual message, at least that was his point of view. He was in
              fact very interested in spiritual matters and knew a lot about it.
              He knew that the Swastika was a very powerful sign - he just turned
              it around, and thus lost its positive power and turned into a
              negative sign. He knew exactly about how to turn things around to
              influence, brainwash and harm people. Today, we always wonder how
              this could have happened, that so many people believed in Hitler -
              but in fact, it's happening here and now as well. The faith we put
              in so-called spiritual leaders and people like Icke and the
              Tranceformation people - it's the same faith Hitler's followers put
              in Hitler. The difference is only that those people obviously don't
              have as much power as Hitler had,and are not as dangerous as Hitler
              was. But if you strip everything and leave just the faith, then
              that's it.

              > Ingrid
            • ctecvie
              Hello Truthdecider, your last post is so powerful, and I don t really know what to say at this point. Just let me tell you that I m so glad to have you on ESA.
              Message 6 of 15 , Jul 4, 2005
                Hello Truthdecider,

                your last post is so powerful, and I don't really know what to say
                at this point. Just let me tell you that I'm so glad to have you on
                ESA. I perceive you as a very kind and thoughtful man, and even if I
                don't know you at all, I like you very much.

                Thank you for your openness, this is very courageous of you. I will
                have to think and feel a bit more about what you said in your post,
                and then come back to you.

                All the best,
                Ingrid

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "truthdecider"
                <truthdecider@y...> wrote:
                > Hello Prometheus, Ingrid, and Mish,
                >
                > Mish, forgive me, but at this point, my responding to the points
                that
                > you made in your David Icke post would be rather pointless, as my
                > thinking on this whole thing has shifted dramatically, as you will
                see.
                >
                > I was away the past 2 days enjoying some wonderful time with
                family,
                > and a huge Fourth of July party. However, in spite of all the fun
                and
                > festivities, it has been occurring to me, much to my dismay, that I
                > still seem to have a tremendous aptitude for extreme self-
                deception. I
                > mean, I know who I am, on some very deep and fundamental levels,
                but I
                > still seem to have an almost amazing knack for getting sucked into
                > "spiritual" kinds of teachings that, temporarily anyway, give me
                > something to hold onto that fills a very large black hole of self
                hate
                > that still exists inside of me, which has been there since early
                > childhood.
                >
                > I lived through some pretty heavy emotional and physical abuse
                during
                > very early childhood. This damaged my formative years quite
                severely,
                > and led to drug abuse and addiction throughout adolescence and my
                teen
                > years. What completely pulled me out of this was Eastern religion,
                > martial arts, and, by far, most extensively, Eckankar. Connecting
                with
                > the light and sound, and the Eck masters healed me in ways that I
                am
                > still eternally grateful for.
                >
                > However, after enjoying an all to brief period in my early
                twenties,
                > when, for the first time in my life, I truly felt healed and whole,
                > and full of genuine self love, the whole Darwin thing came crashing
                > down around me. This was, of course, in the early 1980s.
                >
                > I never really was able to find that same center inside myself with
                > the Eck teachings that I had found for that brief time after the
                whole
                > Darwin crash happened. I trudged along as best I could, and
                constantly
                > tried to find that again. Life was still much, much better than it
                > had been before I first found Eckankar, but I had lost that deep
                sense
                > of balance and self love that I had so enjoyed for that brief time.
                >
                > Then in the late 80s, I encountered first hand, very direct,
                dramatic,
                > experiences with UFOs, and then, subsequently, encounters with very
                > nasty people that wished to silence me from discussing these
                > experiences, or asking too many questions about them. This was in
                no
                > way self-delusional, as these kinds of things were experienced by
                > literally hundreds of people in New York's Hudson Valley area
                during
                > this time. There are 3 books written about all of this that are
                > available on Amazon.com, but all of this is another story for
                another
                > post at some other time.
                >
                > In any event, it was these experiences that led to reading books by
                > David Icke, and a host of others, to try and understand just what
                the
                > hell was going on with all of this stuff. It really shook to me to
                my
                > core to learn first hand that there really are technologies that go
                > way beyond the laws of physics as we know them, and more
                importantly,
                > that I really didn't have a lot of the freedoms that I had been
                led to
                > believe that I had as an American citizen. That there were really
                > people out there that would threaten to kill me if I would not
                shut up
                > about what I had seen. If you haven't lived through these kinds of
                > experiences, then it is very difficult to understand what I really
                > mean, and what this does to you.
                >
                > So I guess my question for you guys is: What the hell IS out
                there, in
                > your opinion, that you can trust and work with, in addition to your
                > own higher selves, that is of a spiritual nature? I mean, you all
                seem
                > to be aware that higher spiritual realities do exist, and that
                there
                > is some truth to the fact that our government is not what it is
                > cracked up to be, which I certainly know first hand. But if
                Cassiopia,
                > David Icke, HCS, Eckankar, Michael Owens, and all the rest are just
                > more lies and traps, than what is out there that is real and
                > trustworthy? Because, very sadly, even though I KNOW I AM SOUL on
                some
                > very deep level, my mind just doesn't seem to be able to learn to
                let
                > me love myself enough to not need some sort of external support
                system
                > at this point.
                >
                > I know that I am not the mind, and that I should be able to just
                not
                > be affected by it, and just move past it, and trust the real me,
                Soul.
                > However, the self-hate engrams that are still part of the mind seem
                > way too strong at times to let me do this.
                >
                > I have tried going to counseling on three separate occasions
                within
                > the last few years, but that has not worked out at all. The kind of
                > issues that I bring to the table seem to be way outside the scope
                of
                > what these therapists know how to deal with. I have literally blown
                > them all away, in one way or another, and I end up needing to stop
                going.
                >
                > I am at a loss, and I feel very frustrated and tired at this
                point. I
                > really don't know where to turn anymore. I hope that someone out
                there
                > can say something that will help guide me in the right direction.
                >
                >
                > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                > <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
                > > Hi Ingrid,
                > > Yes, Icke the pseudo expert and pseudo spiritual master spreads
                fear
                > > and hatred through lies and misinformation much like those
                infamous
                > > figures in history. Icke doesn't even believe that the Holocaust
                > > took place! It is interesting how these power and money hungry
                con
                > > artists find just the right scam in order to pull in the
                suckers.
                > > Did you ever see the movie "The Sting" with Paul Newman and
                Robert
                > > Redford? This movie is a blueprint to show how easy it is to
                trick
                > > foolish, greedy, and egotistical people with partial truth.
                > >
                > > On another note: Yes, conspiracies have always existed... they
                too
                > > are part of the "testing ground for Soul" concept. However, this
                > > also means that we (Souls) have all lived before which means
                that we
                > > have been of different gender, race, religion, etc. , and have
                been
                > > both victim and persecutor.
                > >
                > > Betty, over on HCS, makes the statement that "everything is
                > > spiritual" as a means to justify her and Mario's constant
                ramblings
                > > of conspiracy/"spiritual" topics. If one sees life as a testing
                > > ground for Soul then she is correct, in part, that everything is
                > > spiritual. However, there is much more to this statement than
                she is
                > > apparently capable of seeing. Yes, there is negative and
                positive
                > > and something inbetween. But why chose or promote a negative con
                and
                > > its fear and hatred spin over the opposite? Where are the
                spiritual
                > > lessons to be learned and the responsibility to yourself and to
                > > others in finding real truth and sharing it (isn't the glass
                half
                > > full?). Apparently, Betty and Mario used no caution or
                > > discrimination in finding their new beliefs. Then again,
                according
                > > to their past BB posts, they bought into Icke and others while
                still
                > > being happily deluded members of Eckankar (pre-"Confessions").
                What
                > > Icke presents, especially, with the "Protocols" (Illumanati) has
                > > been proven to be false by real experts. Therefore, how can one
                > > trust anything else Icke has to say when using any
                other "facts." As
                > > I have said before... Icke inundates his readers with so much
                > > information that most just accept it all as factual. After all,
                why
                > > question the words of an expert, or for that matter of a master?
                > >
                > > Of course, Ford has to take some responsibility, as well, for
                > > allowing the B&M crap to be posted constantly on his BBs. But,
                more
                > > on that in another post.
                > >
                > > Prometheus
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > >>Yes, talk is cheap! Just look at Klemp! However, Icke is also
                a
                > > liar just like his "TRANCE" buddies (Mark Phillips and Cathy
                > > O'Brien). The self created trap is believing that these people
                are
                > > not only being truthful, but that they also impart a "spiritual"
                > > message. I guess that Hitler and Stalin had spiritual messages
                too!
                > > Right judgment and critical thinking have been shut out by
                > > these "true believers" who ego's are "outside of the box." They
                have
                > > accepted an unoriginal, negative, and fictional mixture of
                partial
                > > truths to form a new secular religion with Ickeists like
                themselves.
                > >
                > > > You make a very good point here, Prometheus. Hitler had in
                fact a
                > > spiritual message, at least that was his point of view. He was
                in
                > > fact very interested in spiritual matters and knew a lot about
                it.
                > > He knew that the Swastika was a very powerful sign - he just
                turned
                > > it around, and thus lost its positive power and turned into a
                > > negative sign. He knew exactly about how to turn things around
                to
                > > influence, brainwash and harm people. Today, we always wonder
                how
                > > this could have happened, that so many people believed in
                Hitler -
                > > but in fact, it's happening here and now as well. The faith we
                put
                > > in so-called spiritual leaders and people like Icke and the
                > > Tranceformation people - it's the same faith Hitler's followers
                put
                > > in Hitler. The difference is only that those people obviously
                don't
                > > have as much power as Hitler had,and are not as dangerous as
                Hitler
                > > was. But if you strip everything and leave just the faith, then
                > > that's it.
                > >
                > > > Ingrid
              • Freefrom
                Truth Decider, I can very much identify with what you say about the black hole of self-hate and how this affects our ability to steer clear of different
                Message 7 of 15 , Jul 4, 2005
                  Truth Decider,

                  I can very much identify with what you say about the "black hole
                  of self-hate" and how this affects our ability to steer clear of
                  different KULTs etc.. When I get into these states I find that
                  sometimes there is a kind of double bind of hating yourself for hating
                  yourself. It may sound ridiculous, but for me it can be a real
                  dillemma. THis is just my experience, but I have noticed that once I
                  recognize that I am doing this and that I am repeating a pattern that
                  I too was forced into from childhood, then there is a sense of
                  spaciousness as I realize that I can open to all of my feelings. This
                  in itself promotes a sense of feeling better, well being. We don't
                  really have to prove ourselves to anyone, unless we are claiming to be
                  a LEM or something like that. :-)

                  Best

                  Freefrom

                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "truthdecider"
                  <truthdecider@y...> wrote:
                  > Hello Prometheus, Ingrid, and Mish,
                  >
                  > Mish, forgive me, but at this point, my responding to the points that
                  > you made in your David Icke post would be rather pointless, as my
                  > thinking on this whole thing has shifted dramatically, as you will see.
                  >
                  > I was away the past 2 days enjoying some wonderful time with family,
                  > and a huge Fourth of July party. However, in spite of all the fun and
                  > festivities, it has been occurring to me, much to my dismay, that I
                  > still seem to have a tremendous aptitude for extreme self-deception. I
                  > mean, I know who I am, on some very deep and fundamental levels, but I
                  > still seem to have an almost amazing knack for getting sucked into
                  > "spiritual" kinds of teachings that, temporarily anyway, give me
                  > something to hold onto that fills a very large black hole of self hate
                  > that still exists inside of me, which has been there since early
                  > childhood.
                  >
                  > I lived through some pretty heavy emotional and physical abuse during
                  > very early childhood. This damaged my formative years quite severely,
                  > and led to drug abuse and addiction throughout adolescence and my teen
                  > years. What completely pulled me out of this was Eastern religion,
                  > martial arts, and, by far, most extensively, Eckankar. Connecting with
                  > the light and sound, and the Eck masters healed me in ways that I am
                  > still eternally grateful for.
                  >
                  > However, after enjoying an all to brief period in my early twenties,
                  > when, for the first time in my life, I truly felt healed and whole,
                  > and full of genuine self love, the whole Darwin thing came crashing
                  > down around me. This was, of course, in the early 1980s.
                  >
                  > I never really was able to find that same center inside myself with
                  > the Eck teachings that I had found for that brief time after the whole
                  > Darwin crash happened. I trudged along as best I could, and constantly
                  > tried to find that again. Life was still much, much better than it
                  > had been before I first found Eckankar, but I had lost that deep sense
                  > of balance and self love that I had so enjoyed for that brief time.
                  >
                  > Then in the late 80s, I encountered first hand, very direct, dramatic,
                  > experiences with UFOs, and then, subsequently, encounters with very
                  > nasty people that wished to silence me from discussing these
                  > experiences, or asking too many questions about them. This was in no
                  > way self-delusional, as these kinds of things were experienced by
                  > literally hundreds of people in New York's Hudson Valley area during
                  > this time. There are 3 books written about all of this that are
                  > available on Amazon.com, but all of this is another story for another
                  > post at some other time.
                  >
                  > In any event, it was these experiences that led to reading books by
                  > David Icke, and a host of others, to try and understand just what the
                  > hell was going on with all of this stuff. It really shook to me to my
                  > core to learn first hand that there really are technologies that go
                  > way beyond the laws of physics as we know them, and more importantly,
                  > that I really didn't have a lot of the freedoms that I had been led to
                  > believe that I had as an American citizen. That there were really
                  > people out there that would threaten to kill me if I would not shut up
                  > about what I had seen. If you haven't lived through these kinds of
                  > experiences, then it is very difficult to understand what I really
                  > mean, and what this does to you.
                  >
                  > So I guess my question for you guys is: What the hell IS out there, in
                  > your opinion, that you can trust and work with, in addition to your
                  > own higher selves, that is of a spiritual nature? I mean, you all seem
                  > to be aware that higher spiritual realities do exist, and that there
                  > is some truth to the fact that our government is not what it is
                  > cracked up to be, which I certainly know first hand. But if Cassiopia,
                  > David Icke, HCS, Eckankar, Michael Owens, and all the rest are just
                  > more lies and traps, than what is out there that is real and
                  > trustworthy? Because, very sadly, even though I KNOW I AM SOUL on some
                  > very deep level, my mind just doesn't seem to be able to learn to let
                  > me love myself enough to not need some sort of external support system
                  > at this point.
                  >
                  > I know that I am not the mind, and that I should be able to just not
                  > be affected by it, and just move past it, and trust the real me, Soul.
                  > However, the self-hate engrams that are still part of the mind seem
                  > way too strong at times to let me do this.
                  >
                  > I have tried going to counseling on three separate occasions within
                  > the last few years, but that has not worked out at all. The kind of
                  > issues that I bring to the table seem to be way outside the scope of
                  > what these therapists know how to deal with. I have literally blown
                  > them all away, in one way or another, and I end up needing to stop
                  going.
                  >
                  > I am at a loss, and I feel very frustrated and tired at this point. I
                  > really don't know where to turn anymore. I hope that someone out there
                  > can say something that will help guide me in the right direction.
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                  > <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
                  > > Hi Ingrid,
                  > > Yes, Icke the pseudo expert and pseudo spiritual master spreads fear
                  > > and hatred through lies and misinformation much like those infamous
                  > > figures in history. Icke doesn't even believe that the Holocaust
                  > > took place! It is interesting how these power and money hungry con
                  > > artists find just the right scam in order to pull in the suckers.
                  > > Did you ever see the movie "The Sting" with Paul Newman and Robert
                  > > Redford? This movie is a blueprint to show how easy it is to trick
                  > > foolish, greedy, and egotistical people with partial truth.
                  > >
                  > > On another note: Yes, conspiracies have always existed... they too
                  > > are part of the "testing ground for Soul" concept. However, this
                  > > also means that we (Souls) have all lived before which means that we
                  > > have been of different gender, race, religion, etc. , and have been
                  > > both victim and persecutor.
                  > >
                  > > Betty, over on HCS, makes the statement that "everything is
                  > > spiritual" as a means to justify her and Mario's constant ramblings
                  > > of conspiracy/"spiritual" topics. If one sees life as a testing
                  > > ground for Soul then she is correct, in part, that everything is
                  > > spiritual. However, there is much more to this statement than she is
                  > > apparently capable of seeing. Yes, there is negative and positive
                  > > and something inbetween. But why chose or promote a negative con and
                  > > its fear and hatred spin over the opposite? Where are the spiritual
                  > > lessons to be learned and the responsibility to yourself and to
                  > > others in finding real truth and sharing it (isn't the glass half
                  > > full?). Apparently, Betty and Mario used no caution or
                  > > discrimination in finding their new beliefs. Then again, according
                  > > to their past BB posts, they bought into Icke and others while still
                  > > being happily deluded members of Eckankar (pre-"Confessions"). What
                  > > Icke presents, especially, with the "Protocols" (Illumanati) has
                  > > been proven to be false by real experts. Therefore, how can one
                  > > trust anything else Icke has to say when using any other "facts." As
                  > > I have said before... Icke inundates his readers with so much
                  > > information that most just accept it all as factual. After all, why
                  > > question the words of an expert, or for that matter of a master?
                  > >
                  > > Of course, Ford has to take some responsibility, as well, for
                  > > allowing the B&M crap to be posted constantly on his BBs. But, more
                  > > on that in another post.
                  > >
                  > > Prometheus
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > >>Yes, talk is cheap! Just look at Klemp! However, Icke is also a
                  > > liar just like his "TRANCE" buddies (Mark Phillips and Cathy
                  > > O'Brien). The self created trap is believing that these people are
                  > > not only being truthful, but that they also impart a "spiritual"
                  > > message. I guess that Hitler and Stalin had spiritual messages too!
                  > > Right judgment and critical thinking have been shut out by
                  > > these "true believers" who ego's are "outside of the box." They have
                  > > accepted an unoriginal, negative, and fictional mixture of partial
                  > > truths to form a new secular religion with Ickeists like themselves.
                  > >
                  > > > You make a very good point here, Prometheus. Hitler had in fact a
                  > > spiritual message, at least that was his point of view. He was in
                  > > fact very interested in spiritual matters and knew a lot about it.
                  > > He knew that the Swastika was a very powerful sign - he just turned
                  > > it around, and thus lost its positive power and turned into a
                  > > negative sign. He knew exactly about how to turn things around to
                  > > influence, brainwash and harm people. Today, we always wonder how
                  > > this could have happened, that so many people believed in Hitler -
                  > > but in fact, it's happening here and now as well. The faith we put
                  > > in so-called spiritual leaders and people like Icke and the
                  > > Tranceformation people - it's the same faith Hitler's followers put
                  > > in Hitler. The difference is only that those people obviously don't
                  > > have as much power as Hitler had,and are not as dangerous as Hitler
                  > > was. But if you strip everything and leave just the faith, then
                  > > that's it.
                  > >
                  > > > Ingrid
                • mishmisha9
                  Hi, Truthdecider! I want to respond to your post, but I can assure you that I can t answer your questons--that s a certain! : ) ... that ... see. This is just
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jul 5, 2005
                    Hi, Truthdecider!

                    I want to respond to your post, but I can assure you that I can't
                    answer your questons--that's a certain! : )

                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "truthdecider"
                    <truthdecider@y...> wrote:
                    > Hello Prometheus, Ingrid, and Mish,
                    >
                    > Mish, forgive me, but at this point, my responding to the points
                    that
                    > you made in your David Icke post would be rather pointless, as my
                    > thinking on this whole thing has shifted dramatically, as you will
                    see.

                    This is just as well, because I don't know if I really wanted to go
                    into more discussion on Icke--I needed a break! : ) I can see in
                    your post here that you have been thinking a lot which is good. It's
                    funny how one can see something one way, and then after some new
                    thought, see it another. Ever shifting and normal way to look at
                    life and what is going on. I'm not certain if or when we ever get it
                    all figured out.

                    >
                    > I was away the past 2 days enjoying some wonderful time with
                    family,
                    > and a huge Fourth of July party. However, in spite of all the fun
                    and
                    > festivities, it has been occurring to me, much to my dismay, that I
                    > still seem to have a tremendous aptitude for extreme self-
                    deception. I
                    > mean, I know who I am, on some very deep and fundamental levels,
                    but I
                    > still seem to have an almost amazing knack for getting sucked into
                    > "spiritual" kinds of teachings that, temporarily anyway, give me
                    > something to hold onto that fills a very large black hole of self
                    hate
                    > that still exists inside of me, which has been there since early
                    > childhood.

                    You are a truth seeker so of course you are checking out all kinds
                    of spiritual teachings. I don't think that is a bad thing--more
                    people should be into the spiritual. It is the most important aspect
                    of our life.

                    >
                    > I lived through some pretty heavy emotional and physical abuse
                    during
                    > very early childhood. This damaged my formative years quite
                    severely,
                    > and led to drug abuse and addiction throughout adolescence and my
                    teen
                    > years. What completely pulled me out of this was Eastern religion,
                    > martial arts, and, by far, most extensively, Eckankar. Connecting
                    with
                    > the light and sound, and the Eck masters healed me in ways that I
                    am
                    > still eternally grateful for.

                    I'm glad that Eckankar could help you in this regard. I have heard
                    many people express this as well. I feel so sad when I hear about
                    people who were abused as children, and I wish there were more
                    protection for children in our society.


                    >
                    > However, after enjoying an all to brief period in my early
                    twenties,
                    > when, for the first time in my life, I truly felt healed and whole,
                    > and full of genuine self love, the whole Darwin thing came crashing
                    > down around me. This was, of course, in the early 1980s.
                    >
                    > I never really was able to find that same center inside myself with
                    > the Eck teachings that I had found for that brief time after the
                    whole
                    > Darwin crash happened. I trudged along as best I could, and
                    constantly
                    > tried to find that again. Life was still much, much better than it
                    > had been before I first found Eckankar, but I had lost that deep
                    sense
                    > of balance and self love that I had so enjoyed for that brief time.
                    >

                    It was because of the doubt you developed early on in the org., I
                    believe. Many people were not troubled by the Darwin/Harold event
                    and just kept believing. Your intuitive senses were aware of the red
                    flags here, it seems. You still wanted to believe because the belief
                    had helped to balance you, and perhaps you feared going back to
                    square one if you let go of the belief.


                    > Then in the late 80s, I encountered first hand, very direct,
                    dramatic,
                    > experiences with UFOs, and then, subsequently, encounters with very
                    > nasty people that wished to silence me from discussing these
                    > experiences, or asking too many questions about them. This was in
                    no
                    > way self-delusional, as these kinds of things were experienced by
                    > literally hundreds of people in New York's Hudson Valley area
                    during
                    > this time. There are 3 books written about all of this that are
                    > available on Amazon.com, but all of this is another story for
                    another
                    > post at some other time.

                    I am looking forward to hear about this experience.


                    >
                    > In any event, it was these experiences that led to reading books by
                    > David Icke, and a host of others, to try and understand just what
                    the
                    > hell was going on with all of this stuff. It really shook to me to
                    my
                    > core to learn first hand that there really are technologies that go
                    > way beyond the laws of physics as we know them, and more
                    importantly,
                    > that I really didn't have a lot of the freedoms that I had been
                    led to
                    > believe that I had as an American citizen. That there were really
                    > people out there that would threaten to kill me if I would not
                    shut up
                    > about what I had seen. If you haven't lived through these kinds of
                    > experiences, then it is very difficult to understand what I really
                    > mean, and what this does to you.

                    I majored in history/government in college, and learned how most
                    people do not understand what their real right are, or the lack of
                    rights! How government works, in other words.


                    >
                    > So I guess my question for you guys is: What the hell IS out
                    there, in
                    > your opinion, that you can trust and work with, in addition to your
                    > own higher selves, that is of a spiritual nature? I mean, you all
                    seem
                    > to be aware that higher spiritual realities do exist, and that
                    there
                    > is some truth to the fact that our government is not what it is
                    > cracked up to be, which I certainly know first hand. But if
                    Cassiopia,
                    > David Icke, HCS, Eckankar, Michael Owens, and all the rest are just
                    > more lies and traps, than what is out there that is real and
                    > trustworthy?

                    Truthdecider, the truth, as I see it, is what you perceive to be the
                    truth. In other words, it is not other people's spins but what you
                    are able to decipher and learn. If you are an honest individual,
                    which I think you are, you should be able to trust your own beliefs--
                    until they are no longer valid for you, that is. You don't need
                    others to tell you what to think. Will you make mistakes or be
                    mistaken? Of course, but you will be on the right course in finding
                    the spiritual truths you are looking for. So, what is out there for
                    you to believe in--it's you!

                    Because, very sadly, even though I KNOW I AM SOUL on some
                    > very deep level, my mind just doesn't seem to be able to learn to
                    let
                    > me love myself enough to not need some sort of external support
                    system
                    > at this point.
                    >
                    > I know that I am not the mind, and that I should be able to just
                    not
                    > be affected by it, and just move past it, and trust the real me,
                    Soul.
                    > However, the self-hate engrams that are still part of the mind seem
                    > way too strong at times to let me do this.
                    >
                    > I have tried going to counseling on three separate occasions
                    within
                    > the last few years, but that has not worked out at all. The kind of
                    > issues that I bring to the table seem to be way outside the scope
                    of
                    > what these therapists know how to deal with. I have literally blown
                    > them all away, in one way or another, and I end up needing to stop
                    going.
                    >


                    It is good that you recognize this problem and that you are trying
                    to find solution to it. I wish I could help you, beyond telling you
                    that you are a very kind, loving and valuable Soul!

                    > I am at a loss, and I feel very frustrated and tired at this
                    point. I
                    > really don't know where to turn anymore. I hope that someone out
                    there
                    > can say something that will help guide me in the right direction.

                    I'm glad that others have commented and offered some suggestions for
                    you. I hope your frustration and fatigue are short-lived. I do know
                    that laughter and fun is good therapy, especially when one is
                    feeling down. Funny movies, joyful times with friends and family.
                    And then there are people here open to discussion! : )


                    Sorry I can't offer more than this. Your question, even though a
                    good one, is difficult! I like your posts!

                    Mish
                  • l2eigh
                    ... I feel very frustrated and tired at this point. I ... Hi Truthdecider: When I started posting on HCS/TS last year it was as R. After a couple of months I
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jul 6, 2005
                      > So I guess my question for you guys is: What the hell IS out there, in
                      > your opinion, that you can trust and work with, > I am at a loss, and
                      I feel very frustrated and tired at this point. I
                      > really don't know where to turn anymore. I hope that someone out there
                      > can say something that will help guide me in the right direction.


                      Hi Truthdecider:
                      When I started posting on HCS/TS last year it was as R.
                      After a couple of months I quit because there was nothing else to say.
                      Then in January, Garland Peck posted something about Neanderthal Man
                      and why Lemuria/Atlantis was bogus so I got interested again and posted
                      this time in my first and last name Ralph Griffith, so... we "know" one
                      another.
                      I'm just responding to a couple of sentences from your
                      post. Because (like the problem you outline) you can't bring it all
                      inside and get an answer to it, find "the answers". You HAVE to get
                      back to the core(that rocky road)and work with that. Letting all of
                      these other things go. I'd go back to therapy and talk about your
                      childhood problems (only) (if that's what everything is wound around).
                      "What the hell is there out there to work with?" (as
                      you say). There isn't anything. That's mistake one. It just widens and
                      exascerbates the problem with your core, which is where the problem is
                      and what the problem is with. You've GOT to find it again, resolve the
                      rocky road of integrity for this small thing within you and DON'T let
                      anything into it again. That's how this, all this thing, starts.
                      There's the core (yours) and "everything else". And when you try to
                      throw your arms around "everything else" and bring it into the core to
                      resolve it, understand it (whatever)that's when everything goes wrong.
                      Widening and expanding it just makes it worse. You may have delusional
                      success at learning "higher stuff" for a while but the consequences of
                      bringing all the outside into your center eventually catches up.
                      Don't get me wrong, I like everyone in this group a lot
                      but the only thing anyone can do with groups like this, usenet groups,
                      bulletin boards, or find on them is an opinion, what serves as truth
                      for the person posting. The answer's not "out there". There is no
                      answer like that. What you've got to do is get back in touch with the
                      tiny core of reality within yourself which is probably going to mean
                      you've got to let go of all this other stuff, everything else.
                      I'm going through some heavy stuff myself, now so I've
                      stayed out of this, as I sure have enough on my own plate. But what
                      you've said in this post I'm responding to is pretty specific in a
                      couple of sentences. So, I don't know if it helps, but do what you can,
                      and leave all this other poo alone. It just increases your own
                      traumatic stress. Don't you think?
                    • ctecvie
                      Hello Ralph, great that it s you!! :-) When I first saw the e-mail address, I thought of you, because you had posted as Igrif on the BBs as well.But then I
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jul 6, 2005
                        Hello Ralph,

                        great that it's you!! :-) When I first saw the e-mail address, I
                        thought of you, because you had posted as "Igrif" on the BBs as
                        well.But then I dismissed this thought. I know of course that "R"
                        and "Ralph Griffith" are one and the same. :-)

                        So, I'm happy to have you here!
                        Ingrid

                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "l2eigh"
                        <lgrif@m...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > So I guess my question for you guys is: What the hell IS out
                        there, in
                        > > your opinion, that you can trust and work with, > I am at a
                        loss, and
                        > I feel very frustrated and tired at this point. I
                        > > really don't know where to turn anymore. I hope that someone out
                        there
                        > > can say something that will help guide me in the right direction.
                        >
                        >
                        > Hi Truthdecider:
                        > When I started posting on HCS/TS last year it was
                        as R.
                        > After a couple of months I quit because there was nothing else to
                        say.
                        > Then in January, Garland Peck posted something about Neanderthal
                        Man
                        > and why Lemuria/Atlantis was bogus so I got interested again and
                        posted
                        > this time in my first and last name Ralph Griffith, so...
                        we "know" one
                        > another.
                        > I'm just responding to a couple of sentences from
                        your
                        > post. Because (like the problem you outline) you can't bring it
                        all
                        > inside and get an answer to it, find "the answers". You HAVE to
                        get
                        > back to the core(that rocky road)and work with that. Letting all
                        of
                        > these other things go. I'd go back to therapy and talk about your
                        > childhood problems (only) (if that's what everything is wound
                        around).
                        > "What the hell is there out there to work with?"
                        (as
                        > you say). There isn't anything. That's mistake one. It just widens
                        and
                        > exascerbates the problem with your core, which is where the
                        problem is
                        > and what the problem is with. You've GOT to find it again, resolve
                        the
                        > rocky road of integrity for this small thing within you and DON'T
                        let
                        > anything into it again. That's how this, all this thing, starts.
                        > There's the core (yours) and "everything else". And when you try
                        to
                        > throw your arms around "everything else" and bring it into the
                        core to
                        > resolve it, understand it (whatever)that's when everything goes
                        wrong.
                        > Widening and expanding it just makes it worse. You may have
                        delusional
                        > success at learning "higher stuff" for a while but the
                        consequences of
                        > bringing all the outside into your center eventually catches up.
                        > Don't get me wrong, I like everyone in this group
                        a lot
                        > but the only thing anyone can do with groups like this, usenet
                        groups,
                        > bulletin boards, or find on them is an opinion, what serves as
                        truth
                        > for the person posting. The answer's not "out there". There is no
                        > answer like that. What you've got to do is get back in touch with
                        the
                        > tiny core of reality within yourself which is probably going to
                        mean
                        > you've got to let go of all this other stuff, everything else.
                        > I'm going through some heavy stuff myself, now so
                        I've
                        > stayed out of this, as I sure have enough on my own plate. But
                        what
                        > you've said in this post I'm responding to is pretty specific in a
                        > couple of sentences. So, I don't know if it helps, but do what you
                        can,
                        > and leave all this other poo alone. It just increases your own
                        > traumatic stress. Don't you think?
                      • mishmisha9
                        Nice post! And like Ingrid said, good you are here! ... there, in ... loss, and ... there ... as R. ... say. ... Man ... posted ... we know one ... your ...
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jul 6, 2005
                          Nice post! And like Ingrid said, good you are here!


                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "l2eigh"
                          <lgrif@m...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > So I guess my question for you guys is: What the hell IS out
                          there, in
                          > > your opinion, that you can trust and work with, > I am at a
                          loss, and
                          > I feel very frustrated and tired at this point. I
                          > > really don't know where to turn anymore. I hope that someone out
                          there
                          > > can say something that will help guide me in the right direction.
                          >
                          >
                          > Hi Truthdecider:
                          > When I started posting on HCS/TS last year it was
                          as R.
                          > After a couple of months I quit because there was nothing else to
                          say.
                          > Then in January, Garland Peck posted something about Neanderthal
                          Man
                          > and why Lemuria/Atlantis was bogus so I got interested again and
                          posted
                          > this time in my first and last name Ralph Griffith, so...
                          we "know" one
                          > another.
                          > I'm just responding to a couple of sentences from
                          your
                          > post. Because (like the problem you outline) you can't bring it
                          all
                          > inside and get an answer to it, find "the answers". You HAVE to
                          get
                          > back to the core(that rocky road)and work with that. Letting all
                          of
                          > these other things go. I'd go back to therapy and talk about your
                          > childhood problems (only) (if that's what everything is wound
                          around).
                          > "What the hell is there out there to work with?"
                          (as
                          > you say). There isn't anything. That's mistake one. It just widens
                          and
                          > exascerbates the problem with your core, which is where the
                          problem is
                          > and what the problem is with. You've GOT to find it again, resolve
                          the
                          > rocky road of integrity for this small thing within you and DON'T
                          let
                          > anything into it again. That's how this, all this thing, starts.
                          > There's the core (yours) and "everything else". And when you try
                          to
                          > throw your arms around "everything else" and bring it into the
                          core to
                          > resolve it, understand it (whatever)that's when everything goes
                          wrong.
                          > Widening and expanding it just makes it worse. You may have
                          delusional
                          > success at learning "higher stuff" for a while but the
                          consequences of
                          > bringing all the outside into your center eventually catches up.
                          > Don't get me wrong, I like everyone in this group
                          a lot
                          > but the only thing anyone can do with groups like this, usenet
                          groups,
                          > bulletin boards, or find on them is an opinion, what serves as
                          truth
                          > for the person posting. The answer's not "out there". There is no
                          > answer like that. What you've got to do is get back in touch with
                          the
                          > tiny core of reality within yourself which is probably going to
                          mean
                          > you've got to let go of all this other stuff, everything else.
                          > I'm going through some heavy stuff myself, now so
                          I've
                          > stayed out of this, as I sure have enough on my own plate. But
                          what
                          > you've said in this post I'm responding to is pretty specific in a
                          > couple of sentences. So, I don't know if it helps, but do what you
                          can,
                          > and leave all this other poo alone. It just increases your own
                          > traumatic stress. Don't you think?
                        • ctecvie
                          Hello Truthdecider, I think you have received excellent help from both the members here and on ET. Mish makes some very good points - I would have said many of
                          Message 12 of 15 , Jul 6, 2005
                            Hello Truthdecider,

                            I think you have received excellent help from both the members here
                            and on ET. Mish makes some very good points - I would have said many
                            of it, too! :-) So that leaves me just some short remarks.

                            To self-hate: A technique that helped me a lot was when I wrote a
                            letter to myself, imagining how it would have been perfect for me.
                            This was a very powerful tool and helped change my past a bit. Of
                            course I wasn't an abused child or anything like that, just had
                            the "normal difficult" childhood.

                            I can confirm that Bach remedies help a lot to overcome
                            psychological issues. I took them, too and they helped me greatly. I
                            am planning to have a horoscope done, just to know where I am at the
                            moment because it's an image of my personal progress.

                            Basically, you can choose any therapy or remedy you want, the most
                            important thing is to be in tune with the therapy or remedy you
                            choose. No matter if you choose Bach flowers, homeopathy, books that
                            deal with special questions and issues you have, kinesiology, NLP,
                            etc. etc. - just tune in and enjoy what you are doing. And when you
                            feel that you have got what you needed, then just move on, and no
                            regrets.

                            Concerning your spiritual search, please go on - it's so important
                            to continue. I don't see the paths you tried as failures - you
                            learned from each of them. If you are interested in people like
                            Icke - that's ok because he will teach you what you need. I think
                            it's much more important to move on when it's done. So please,
                            please, don't be angry with yourself because everything is in
                            perfect order. I can see that you are absolutely open to life and to
                            other perspectives, and that's wonderful.

                            Happy moving on ...
                            Ingrid
                          • prometheus_973
                            Hi Truthdecider, It seems like the responses and advice to this post of yours were very good. There are many resources that can be looked at to discover what
                            Message 13 of 15 , Jul 6, 2005
                              Hi Truthdecider,

                              It seems like the responses and advice to this post of yours were
                              very good. There are many resources that can be looked at to
                              discover what one needs in order to find one's own inner truth. Life
                              is difficult at various times for everyone, and sensitive people and
                              spiritual seekers have it much more difficult than those controlled
                              by their egos. But one should never give up, and never surrender!
                              And yet one must give up and surrender the things that prevent us
                              from growing and knowing who we truly are and why we are truly here.
                              One must also discover these truths on their own (mostly) and not
                              through another's truth. We can help each other, but only up to a
                              certain point. The responsibility to live, share and discover life's
                              mysteries and meaning lies without and within each Soul. In some
                              respects as long as one does no harm (at all) to others or to
                              oneself then that makes any experience into a spiritual lesson. You
                              must relax and enjoy the journey and not be in such a rush. There is
                              no race to God-Realization because God-Realization is in the clarity
                              of the moment. If one rushes around desparately looking here and
                              there then one can miss seeing the subtlies and changes that help us
                              see through the illusions. Yes it is all illusion, but there is also
                              the reality of Truth surrounding the illusion. The fact that you are
                              honest with yourself and have doubts and questions shows that your
                              ego is not so strong as to blind you from higher Truth. I think that
                              you are closer to answering your own questions than you think.

                              Prometheus


                              Truthdecider said:
                              >>So I guess my question for you guys is: What the hell IS out
                              there, in your opinion, that you can trust and work with, > I am at
                              a loss, and I feel very frustrated and tired at this point. I really
                              don't know where to turn anymore. I hope that someone out there can
                              say something that will help guide me in the right direction.
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