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Re: ECK Higher Initiations Are a Mixed Bag o...

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  • prometheus_973
    Klemp was selected by Gross because DG thought that he could control HK while he remained in charge as the Mahanta. Klemp would crank out the books, etc. that
    Message 1 of 27 , Jan 2, 2007
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      Klemp was selected by Gross because DG thought
      that he could control HK while he remained in charge
      as the Mahanta. Klemp would crank out the books,
      etc. that would bring in revenue and keep the
      membership both distracted and placated as DG
      partied on!

      Yes, Darwin discovered that Paul's religion that he
      too bought into was all a scam and that's one reason
      for his to rebellion through his bad behaviour. HK's
      bad behaviour stems from his delusion (mental illness)
      and his nasty temperment when dealing with the common
      man.

      I find it interesting that ECKists are always looking
      for an "ECK" connection in things that fit-in with
      their dogma, and refuse to see the KAL connection
      as well. Like with HK working in a 'Sound Proof Dark
      Room' at the ESC and then having Two meetings
      with Gross in these rooms to discuss HK taking
      over as the next LEM. Yet, ECKists will selectively
      choose what they see and close their eyes to these
      facts that Klemp mentions in Chapter 7 of "Soul
      Travelers of the Far Country." And yet, this apprentice
      (HK), has the nerve to call his mentor, who hands him
      the ROD, a Black Magician! Talk about 'the pot calling
      the kettle black!' LOL!

      BTW- Didn't DG split from Gail after about 4 years
      of marriage and prior to anything David Lane wrote?
      What's the Timeline on this? Just curious! Or, is this
      just more useless speculation. Let's face it - if anyone
      knew that Eckankar was a scam it was Gail! She was
      the one that encouraged Paul, supported him, and
      helped design the scam with Paul. Gail's done quite
      well for herself over the years hasn't she!


      Prometheus



      Liz wrote:
      >
      > Kent wrote:
      >
      > Eckankar has distanced itself from its history that involves
      > Darwin, since the feud that occured is embarrassing to
      > eckankar. "Highest Spiritual Paths" don't like to reveal their dirty
      > laundry, lest they appear to not be so high, after all.
      >
      > [Liz]:
      >
      > My thoughts on how Darwin conducted himself is telling... he obviously knew
      > the whole thing was a scam, maybe not at first, but after being elevated to
      > god man he did.
      >
      > And so, because it was a farce, why not kick back and enjoy the money, and
      > the worship? I have seen many scam artists enjoy the good life off of
      > someone else's money. Because he knew he was no god man, why not have a go
      > at the women, the booze etc....

      > Thing was, people were looking! And it wasn't very becoming of a god man,
      > the org knew people would leave in droves. Money is the motivator.......
    • ewickings
      Prometheus wrote: BTW- Didn t DG split from Gail after about 4 years of marriage and prior to anything David Lane wrote? What s the Timeline on this? Just
      Message 2 of 27 , Jan 2, 2007
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        Prometheus wrote:
         
        BTW- Didn't DG split from Gail after about 4 years
        of marriage and prior to anything David Lane wrote?
        What's the Timeline on this? Just curious!
         
         
        *** From what I have read Darwin and Gail were officially divorced on Dec. 31st 1977, and papers were filed with the Superior Court of CA, in San Diego County, Case # D116678.   ;-)
         
        Lane's book, The Making of a Spiritual Movement: The untold Story of Paul Twitchell and Eckankar,  came out in 1978?  Sorry I am not sure of the month....
         
        Liz
      • etznab@aol.com
        In a message dated 1/2/07 3:17:08 AM Central Standard Time, ... Kent, Enjoyed reading your response and viewpoints. And no, it was not that I wanted to suggest
        Message 3 of 27 , Jan 2, 2007
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          In a message dated 1/2/07 3:17:08 AM Central Standard Time, tianyue@... writes:


          I agree, but if everyone on such a site were exactly alike in their
          sentiments and opinions, there would be nothing to discuss. Is
          that what you want? If so, it would be very boring, I would think.


          Kent,

             Enjoyed reading your response and viewpoints. And no, it was
          not that I wanted to suggest everyone be alike. I was attempting
          to bring into consideration the middle or third element inside of
          any trivial equation consisting of two opposing sides.

             I'm not portrayiing trivia in a negative way, when I see it com-
          posed of the words tri ["three"] and via ["way"].

             Not always, but more during the past few months it has become
          more important to navigate history in this context. For me, that is.

             Perhaps like a ping pong ball traveling back and forth between
          some opposite extremes, I've come to a better awareness about
          the central net, that without which neither side could amount to
          any real difference. I know this is a vague point perhaps, but IMO
          I thought it nevertheless necessary to mention.

          Kent wrote:

          Yes, but again, there is no fixed, static balance. One moment it is
          day, then night, with the seasons changing, with longer days,
          then shorter days. The centerpoint will likewise shift. It is not
          fixed. To give an example far off the subject, to curtail global
          warming, as an important issue, is not much thought of as a
          centrist view, yet in my view those who care about the issue are
          very balanced and in the center on this issue, though they are
          thought to be extreme by many. It is often the majority who get to
          decide where the middle is, but that is not at all the same thing
          as balanced. Each person gets to decide what is balanced for
          him/herself. It is often different for each of us.

          Etznab responds:

             Thanks for sharing that (and the other parts that I didn't
          respond to). I like reading what others have to share,
          especially their sincere opinions - some of which may in-
          deed be the truth - no matter the venue.

             E.S.A. is a different B.B. compared to others, and even IMO
          it is NOT all bad.

          Etznab

        • etznab@aol.com
          Yeah, and I ve heard that some folks got initiations even before the second and two years time had elapsed. Really, no kidding. So things were different in the
          Message 4 of 27 , Jan 2, 2007
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               Yeah, and I've heard that some folks got initiations even before the
            second and two years time had elapsed. Really, no kidding. So things
            were different in the early days. Nowadays a person could easily wait
            15 or more years to go through the first four and five initiations, where
            in the past it might have (for a few at least) taken three (or even two)
            years. So this amounts to history I guess.
            Etznab
          • etznab@aol.com
            In a message dated 1/2/07 12:58:42 PM Central Standard Time, ... IMO one would have to consider when the manuscript began. When Eckankar found out about its
            Message 5 of 27 , Jan 2, 2007
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              In a message dated 1/2/07 12:58:42 PM Central Standard Time, prometheus_973@... writes:


              BTW- Didn't DG split from Gail after about 4 years
              of marriage and prior to anything David Lane wrote?
              What's the Timeline on this? Just curious!


                 IMO one would have to consider when the manuscript began.
              When Eckankar found out about its contents, etc. The book had
              other forms of "publicity" before the 1993 publication. Also the
              SCP was active as well.

                 The wording I used in an earlier reference was too general I admit.
              I was looking at the history of David's book and the other writings
              that alleged plagarism before that. Without looking at the timeline I
              would guess the latter 70's when things started really hitting the fan.
              I remember that even Eckankar wrote something about the charges
              of other people and groups against Eckankar.

                 So most of what I was referring to pertains to the latter 70's. OK,
              I'll check the timeline:

              - IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER -

              (The following information represents the "view" of the author, and not
              necessarily of Eckankar): This is a "generic" outline only and viewers
              are hereby advised to research and/or crosscheck the information for
              themselves. - D.R.D.

              1972 Darwin & Gail married [October?]
              1973 Darwin referred to as Mahanta? (1973-1974?)
              1977 Term Paper / California State University, Northridge
                      Letter / Alan Nichols to David Lane
              1978 Divorce Announcement / Darwin Gross
                      Finished Manuscript / "The Making of a Spiritual Movement"
                      Term Paper Sent to ECKANKAR / David Lane
                      Informally Circulated Manuscript / "The Making of a Spiritual Movement"
              1979 Trivia / Religious Controversy [Los Angeles Times article, 05/30/79]
                       Mystic World Publication [August]:

                       Dear Fellow ECKists,

                       There have been groups and individuals actively distributing
                       misinformation about the ECKANKAR teachings. With this
                       in mind, we wish to provide you with the following information...
                       [....] (

                       No Plagarism / The Far Country [According to Darwin Gross -
                       December 27th, 1979]
              1980  Plans to Step Aside / Darwin Gross [March 1980]
                       8th (Inner) Initiation / Harold Klemp [June 14th, 1980]
                       Letter Excerpt / Dr. Louis Bluth [June 19th, 1980]
                       The Wind of Change - "Copyright 1980
              1981  8th (Outer) Initiation / Harold Klemp - January 27th, 1981
                       9th Initiation / Harold Klemp - July 22, 1981
                       President of Eckankar / Darwin Gross? - October 1st, 1981
                       Harold Klemp / The 973rd Living ECK Master - October (?), 1981

                 These are the timeline titles mostly, with some clarifying references
              where deemed appropriate. The full timeline was voluntarily removed
              (by me) from the internet twice due to "peer" pressure and various
              other (personal) reasons.

                 OK, Prometheus. Does this answer your question? David's book I
              believe was published in 1993 - a version of it at least. However this
              timeline does IMO indicate what I have alluded to before about Gail
              and Darwin splitting up and Darwin looking for another L.E.M. with-
              in a few short years [see 1977-1980, etc.] O.K. Does this clarify
              my (speculative, at least) point?

              Etznab

              P.S. Typos, Subject, and/or Timeline date corrections are welcome
              if they need apply. The forgoing information gives an observation only.
                      
            • etznab@aol.com
              In a message dated 1/2/07 2:29:08 PM Central Standard Time, ... Thanks Liz, I have that the official announcement came shortly afterwards. Example, early 1978.
              Message 6 of 27 , Jan 2, 2007
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                In a message dated 1/2/07 2:29:08 PM Central Standard Time, ewickings@... writes:


                *** From what I have read Darwin and Gail were officially divorced on Dec. 31st 1977, and papers were filed with the Superior Court of CA, in San Diego County, Case # D116678.   ;-)



                   Thanks Liz, I have that the official announcement came shortly
                afterwards. Example, early 1978. By "announcement" I mean:

                "In early 1978, Darwin sent a personal letter to every Eck chela in the
                world informing them that he and Gail were getting divorced.  A couple
                of years later, Darwin got remarried, but it lasted only a few months
                and he got the marriage annulled." [Based on: David Lane]

                   If this is incorrect, somebody correct me.

                Etznab

              • prometheus_973
                Actually, today, if one is a high profile professional an ECKist can get the 5th after 15 years. The average time it takes to get the 5th is 18 years. However,
                Message 7 of 27 , Jan 2, 2007
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                  Actually, today, if one is a high profile professional an
                  ECKist can get the 5th after 15 years. The average time
                  it takes to get the 5th is 18 years. However, there are
                  many ECKists that now have to wait even longer to get
                  the 5th due to: The org's ridgid training requirements;
                  by not networking with the H.I. clique; by not doing
                  required volunteer work; by asking too many questions;
                  or by getting on the wrong side of the RESA or to have
                  complaints called in on you or discussed when your name
                  comes up for initiation.

                  BTW-I've not heard of anyone getting an initiation higher
                  than the 2nd before the initial two year time period. I can
                  see how that would happen after 1971.

                  Isn't it interesting that the ECK Initiations have slowed
                  to a crawl. If Higher Initiations supposedly represent a
                  Higher Con. then why do they take so long with Klemp
                  being in charge for Twenty-Four years than they did with
                  PT in Six years or DG in Ten years? Both PT and DG
                  together had 16 years of leadership compared to Klemp's
                  24 years! Could it be that ECKANKAR is going through a
                  Spiritual Regression (Devolution) with Klemp-in-charge?
                  It would seem so! Where do all of those 7ths go? Ah, they
                  dream of, imagine, or delude themselves of having that
                  8th on the inner where it really counts anyway! Right!
                  And, that's how Eckankar still works for most ECKists!

                  Prometheus



                  etznab wrote:
                  >
                  > Yeah, and I've heard that some folks got initiations even before the
                  > second and two years time had elapsed. Really, no kidding. So things
                  > were different in the early days. Nowadays a person could easily wait
                  > 15 or more years to go through the first four and five initiations, where
                  > in the past it might have (for a few at least) taken three (or even two)
                  > years. So this amounts to history I guess.
                  > Etznab
                  >
                • tomleafeater
                  ... one ... fifth, ... Right. Eckankar needed leaders and representatives quickly to maintain growth, so the initiations were really flying during those times.
                  Message 8 of 27 , Jan 2, 2007
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                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "ctecvie"
                    <ctecvie@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Kent,
                    >
                    > I enjoy your posts greatly - also those on a.r.e. because you are
                    one
                    > of the few ones to express themselves clearly. I'm glad to read you
                    > on ESA, too.
                    >
                    > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater"
                    > <tianyue@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                    > > etznab@ wrote:
                    >
                    > ---snipped---
                    > > > I'll say this much, however. From 1968 to 1970 is only
                    > > > about two years. Darwin must have received the 5th, like,
                    > > > really soon after the 2nd. Unless he skipped the 2nd and
                    > > > went right to the 5th.
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > In those days, people flew through the initiations. People
                    > > commonly would get initations every year, until they were
                    > > "slowed down" a couple of years later. Samorez, a fellow who
                    > > posts once in a while on a.r.e. went from the second to the
                    fifth,
                    > > skipping everything in between. I remember the story, since he
                    > > lived in my local area. He knew Twitchell and Gail and thus
                    > > received a favor.
                    >
                    > *** My husband knew Bettine Clemen, the flute player, when she was
                    > still in Germany and also in Austria. She told him and a few others
                    > at the time that on one day, she got the fourth and the fifth
                    > initiation, one after the other.
                    > Ingrid
                    >


                    Right. Eckankar needed leaders and representatives quickly to
                    maintain growth, so the initiations were really flying during those
                    times. H.I. were swaggering about like giddy, drunken sailors who had
                    too much to drink all at once.

                    By the way, thanks for the feedback on my posts. Sometimes I think I
                    post just for they fun of writing. But usually when I read my own
                    stuff, I often come close to deleting it before I post it! Then I
                    say, what the heck, and post it anyway. Funny, that.

                    Kent
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