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Re: Some of My Thoughts on Conspiracy Theories, Etc.

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  • prometheus_973
    Hello Truthdecider, Welcome to the site! In regard to Icke, he does go after international bankers and Jewish leaders by claiming that the Jewish race is just
    Message 1 of 15 , Jun 28, 2005
      Hello Truthdecider,

      Welcome to the site!

      In regard to Icke, he does go after international bankers and Jewish
      leaders by claiming that the Jewish race is just a conspiracy to rob
      Gentiles of their money... but then claims that he does not hate
      the "ordinary" Jew. Icke is basically anti-U.S., anti-Semitic, but
      pro Al-Jazeera. Icke also makes a lot of wild claims with no
      validation and mixes these with some claims grounded in fact. Funny,
      how he supports the TRANCEformation of America con to validate his
      con. Usually Icke just does a fear mongering reptilian rehash on his
      books. Icke presents a schizophrenic view of world society by
      presenting the reptilian/alien mind control-Jewish/Rothschild
      banking conspiracy agenda, etc., etc., but also states that it is
      also a "The Matrix" like illusion! If it is all illusion then does
      the rest really matter? Anyway, it is obviously a con and a lower
      consciousness and negative belief system that Icke has created for
      those who need to have a some sort of a belief system, purpose, and
      understanding for the lack of control they feel. Some Icke followers
      have never had a true spiritual experience, and are therefore
      seeking a new secular religion based in conspiracy (which do exist
      and can be proven). These Icke/TRANCE believers are liken to a
      drowning man grabbing at straws to stay afloat! They have no other
      valid belief system to explain why things are as they are. They want
      to believe in aliens and mysteries closer to discovery and
      understanding (in their minds) which bolster their ego's survival
      mechanisms. True spiritual knowingness is beyond their reach due to
      a wide varity of factors, therefore, they seek a new
      rationalization, explaination, and purpose. But, this is merely a
      means of cementing themselves into a new box filled with even more
      illusions and delusions. A total belief in Icke and those with
      similar beliefs and agendas will possibly prevent (for those
      believers) true critical thinking from ever being able to take
      place.

      I still view all of this as a testing ground for Soul, and I have
      had spiritual experiences to validate this! Intuition, insight,
      clarity, love and joy are all factors that I experience in my life.
      Where are these in the world of David Icke and company? Nowhere!

      Anyway, it's just my opinion. However, I would also like for you to
      put your HCS post on Surat Shabda Yoga on this site. I enjoyed that
      post and have some comments that I'd like to make.

      Thanks again for posting. I hope you will continue to participate on
      this site.

      Prometheus





      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "truthdecider"
      <truthdecider@y...> wrote:
      > Hello All,
      >
      > I posted most of this over on the ET site, but I thought I would
      put
      > it here as well, seeing as how there has been considerable
      > discussion about these topics here as well.
      >
      > My search into the ideas of the possibility of Aliens, government
      > coverups, etc. started after having very direct
      > experiences with spacecraft that defy all known laws of physics as
      we
      > have been taught them, and then a lot of harrassment by some very
      > nasty people when I asked too many questions about it all.
      >
      > There is so much information, mis-information, and deliberate
      > dis-information on the internet about all of these groups and
      topics
      > that one ultimately needs to trust their own intuition as far as
      who
      > they believe to be speaking at a level that is somewhat close to
      the
      > truth.
      >
      > For example, Mish mentions that she read that David Icke is a Neo-
      > Nazi. But how do we know that what Mish read about this is valid
      > information?
      > There are some web sites out there that state this,
      > and then try and support and validate that position. I've read all
      of
      > this as well. However, we need to remember that there are groups of
      > very powerful people in existance that could could decide to target
      > even the sweetest old man in the world, and manufacture and plant
      > enough evidence on him that would convince the rest of the world
      that
      > he was a viscious child molester overnight. If these people wanted
      > this old man out of the way for some reason, if they perceived him
      as
      > a threat to whatever their agenda is, then they would do this to
      him
      > in a heartbeat.
      >
      > In my opinion, the reason that this kind of overt action isn't
      > taken against someone like Icke is that he is way too public
      already,
      > and too many of his supporters are aware of how these kinds of
      setups
      > are orchestrated, and would all work very hard to expose the
      > manufacured evidence. But the poor little old man, or woman, or
      > college kid that just one day decides to start voicing things that
      > this group of people feels is too damaging to their agenda can be
      > setup like this very easily.
      >
      > But manufacturing falsehoods and stories about someone, and posting
      > this false info in newsgroups, BBS's and/or setting up web sites to
      > spread such dis-information is very easy to do to target anyone.
      >
      > So, to build on Mish's very good point, we can't take ANY of this
      > stuff that we read on the internet about any of these groups or
      > people
      > at face value. We need to trust our own intuition, which is exactly
      > what I do.
      >
      > Now, having said all of this, I need to make it crystal clear that
      > I am in no way sure at this point that I trust David Icke,
      Cassiopia,
      > HCS, or ANY of these groups. My jury is still out on all of them,
      as
      > these things, even with intuition, can take time.
      >
      > I am only very sure of three things:
      >
      > 1. Something is VERY WRONG with our government today. You can even
      > see this in the recent news about some of the laws that are being
      > passed with regards to our personal property rights, our right to
      > privacy, etc.
      >
      > 2. There exists on this planet technology and scientific
      > discoveries that go way beyond what the general public knows
      about. I
      > don't honestly know if these were developed here on earth, or if
      they
      > are extraterrestrial in nature, but I do know first hand that they
      > exist.
      >
      > 3. There are people that very much don't want these technologies
      > and discoveries to become public knowledge. I don't know exactly
      why
      > that is, but I also know first hand that this is true.
      >
      > Beyond being sure that the above three things are true, I am even
      > more sure that I am an eternal, immortal being, as we all are.
      This I
      > also know from direct experience, as I'm sure many others here do.
      >
      > It is my goal and journey to find answers to the three things
      > mentioned above, as I feel it is vital to spirituality. Just as
      > vital,
      > if not more vital than discovering the lies and deceptions that may
      > exist in any number of religious and spiritual paths and teachings.
      >
      > However, it is in no way my desire to convince anyone else that
      > these things are spiritually important for them. And I am certainly
      > not trying to convince anyone else about any particular groups
      ideas,
      > as I don't even know which, if any, groups I really trust at this
      > point.
      >
      > If it is felt that there is no place for any further discussion or
      > exploration in this group about any of the above mentioned ideas,
      and
      > how they relate to spirituality, than I can assure everyone that it
      > will not be brought up again.
      >
      > With best regards,
      >
      > Truthdecider
    • ctecvie
      Hello Truthdecider, ... we ... I m sure that people didn t like when you asked that. I have seen Roswell ... ... topics ... who ... the ... of ... that ...
      Message 2 of 15 , Jun 28, 2005
        Hello Truthdecider,

        > My search into the ideas of the possibility of Aliens, government
        > coverups, etc. started after having very direct
        > experiences with spacecraft that defy all known laws of physics as
        we
        > have been taught them, and then a lot of harrassment by some very
        > nasty people when I asked too many questions about it all.

        I'm sure that people didn't like when you asked that. I have
        seen "Roswell" ...
        >
        > There is so much information, mis-information, and deliberate
        > dis-information on the internet about all of these groups and
        topics
        > that one ultimately needs to trust their own intuition as far as
        who
        > they believe to be speaking at a level that is somewhat close to
        the
        > truth.
        >
        > For example, Mish mentions that she read that David Icke is a Neo-
        > Nazi. But how do we know that what Mish read about this is valid
        > information?
        > There are some web sites out there that state this,
        > and then try and support and validate that position. I've read all
        of
        > this as well. However, we need to remember that there are groups of
        > very powerful people in existance that could could decide to target
        > even the sweetest old man in the world, and manufacture and plant
        > enough evidence on him that would convince the rest of the world
        that
        > he was a viscious child molester overnight. If these people wanted
        > this old man out of the way for some reason, if they perceived him
        as
        > a threat to whatever their agenda is, then they would do this to
        him
        > in a heartbeat.

        You know what - I have known that for quite a long time! If I am
        opposed to the posts on HCS this doesn't mean that I am not aware of
        this kind of targetting people. I know, too, that it is easy to
        stamp somebody as "neonazi" for example - which is a really vicious
        thing to do especially in countries with a strong nazi past. People
        there are very alert to that!
        >
        > In my opinion, the reason that this kind of overt action isn't
        > taken against someone like Icke is that he is way too public
        already,
        > and too many of his supporters are aware of how these kinds of
        setups
        > are orchestrated, and would all work very hard to expose the
        > manufacured evidence. But the poor little old man, or woman, or
        > college kid that just one day decides to start voicing things that
        > this group of people feels is too damaging to their agenda can be
        > setup like this very easily.
        >
        > But manufacturing falsehoods and stories about someone, and posting
        > this false info in newsgroups, BBS's and/or setting up web sites to
        > spread such dis-information is very easy to do to target anyone.

        It is - but on the other hand, it is very easy to spread the
        contrary as well! Reputations can be ruined very easily as you point
        out, but a reputation and image can be built up very easily as well.
        Even if the Icke information is wrong, there's still the statements
        about Laura Knight - and knowing cults, I think that those
        statements contain a lot of truth. Usually, behind those groups - or
        cults - there's a lot of money and thus power, and so it is
        difficult to attack them. So I think that those who speak up against
        Laura Knight are right. And it is really bad that HCS continues to
        spread this disinformation on their website!
        >
        > So, to build on Mish's very good point, we can't take ANY of this
        > stuff that we read on the internet about any of these groups or
        > people
        > at face value. We need to trust our own intuition, which is exactly
        > what I do.
        >
        > Now, having said all of this, I need to make it crystal clear that
        > I am in no way sure at this point that I trust David Icke,
        Cassiopia,
        > HCS, or ANY of these groups. My jury is still out on all of them,
        as
        > these things, even with intuition, can take time.
        >
        > I am only very sure of three things:
        >
        > 1. Something is VERY WRONG with our government today. You can even
        > see this in the recent news about some of the laws that are being
        > passed with regards to our personal property rights, our right to
        > privacy, etc.

        True - and I know about this because I read books and magazines who
        talk about those things as well! I don't need Betty and Mario for
        that who never stop drumming this kind of information in our heads!
        I am fairly intelligent, you know, and can read and get information
        on my own. I know that things are going on out there which we
        probably cannot imagine.

        >
        > 2. There exists on this planet technology and scientific
        > discoveries that go way beyond what the general public knows
        about. I
        > don't honestly know if these were developed here on earth, or if
        they
        > are extraterrestrial in nature, but I do know first hand that they
        > exist.

        I know that as well. Think of Nikola Tesla, Wilhelm Reich, Viktor
        Schauberger and so on. I think all of them have been disparaged at
        the time, Reich ending up in psychiatry if I remember correctly.
        Viktor Schauberger's apartment was devastated by the Russians if I
        am correct (I would need to check all this because it's been a long
        time I have read about it).
        >
        > 3. There are people that very much don't want these technologies
        > and discoveries to become public knowledge. I don't know exactly
        why
        > that is, but I also know first hand that this is true.

        Because economy could not run any more as it is running now. And
        that is why the people I mentioned above were disparaged.
        >
        > Beyond being sure that the above three things are true, I am even
        > more sure that I am an eternal, immortal being, as we all are.
        This I
        > also know from direct experience, as I'm sure many others here do.
        >
        > It is my goal and journey to find answers to the three things
        > mentioned above, as I feel it is vital to spirituality. Just as
        > vital,
        > if not more vital than discovering the lies and deceptions that may
        > exist in any number of religious and spiritual paths and teachings.

        All of this is important, and I think we are fairly spiritual on
        this list, so I would suppose we all are doing or have done our fair
        share of research. For me, it's not so important to know "how" all
        of this is true but to train myself to recognize misinformation and
        decide on how to handle it, for me. It's important for me to know
        when I'm being lied to. Conspiracy theorists can lie as well, you
        know!
        >
        > However, it is in no way my desire to convince anyone else that
        > these things are spiritually important for them. And I am certainly
        > not trying to convince anyone else about any particular groups
        ideas,
        > as I don't even know which, if any, groups I really trust at this
        > point.
        >
        > If it is felt that there is no place for any further discussion or
        > exploration in this group about any of the above mentioned ideas,
        and
        > how they relate to spirituality, than I can assure everyone that it
        > will not be brought up again.

        I'm open for ideas - but I do think, too, that it is important to
        see how beautiful life is. I'm taking the liberty for myself to
        believe that not everything is set up and orchestrated in order to
        lead us into the dark. I think many things happen just for our good
        and are gifts of life. I take the liberty to believe all that AND be
        aware that there CAN be deception out there.

        Ingrid
      • truthdecider
        Hello Prometheus! I was originally going to respond to both your post and Mish s post about David Icke with one response. However, I found that there was too
        Message 3 of 15 , Jul 1, 2005
          Hello Prometheus!

          I was originally going to respond to both your post and Mish's post
          about David Icke with one response. However, I found that there was
          too much to cover if I did it that way, and the post would have
          gotten too long. So I will respond to Mish's post separately.

          Firstly, I agree that David Icke definitely goes too far. He can't
          possibly expect most people to go along with the whole shape-
          shifting reptilian thing, even if he himself does actually believe
          this. And he should realize that. Also, I feel that a lot of his
          books are redundant and repetitive, and dwell too much on his
          perceived negativity in the world. Because of things like this, one
          certainly has to wonder what his motives really are.

          However, if you strip away all of the reptilian stuff, his over
          stressing of negativity as he perceives it, and his repetitiveness,
          his essential message, as I see it, is still good. And his essential
          message is that we live on a planet that is largely controlled by
          people in power who are, for the most part, negative, but it really
          doesn't matter, because we are all eternal, immortal spiritual
          beings, and we only need to reawaken ourselves to this fact to free
          ourselves from this trap, which is actually self created anyway. He
          further states that those negative people in power are actually just
          extensions or reflections of the negative aspects of ourselves.
          Hence, the awakening of our true, highest nature not only frees us
          spiritually, but helps the world at large become more spiritually
          free due to the synergistic effect this has on dissipating this self
          created negativity that we have all manifested, due to the fact that
          the negative aspects of our lower natures have had too strong a say
          in things for too many lifetimes on this planet.

          This essential message of David Icke's is not too different from the
          essential message of many other spiritual teachings that are
          considered very legitimate by many people.

          So, in a nutshell, I feel that his essential points are quite valid,
          but his approach to communicating this, and his over dwelling on
          certain aspects of his perceptions of negativity leave a lot to be
          desired, and do somewhat call his agenda into question.

          Prometheus, you wrote: "These Icke/TRANCE believers are liken to a
          drowning man grabbing at straws to stay afloat! They have no other
          valid belief system to explain why things are as they are. They want
          to believe in aliens and mysteries closer to discovery and
          understanding (in their minds) which bolster their ego's survival
          mechanisms. True spiritual knowingness is beyond their reach due to
          a wide variety of factors, therefore, they seek a new
          rationalization, explanation, and purpose. But, this is merely a
          means of cementing themselves into a new box filled with even more
          illusions and delusions. A total belief in Icke and those with
          similar beliefs and agendas will possibly prevent (for those
          believers) true critical thinking from ever being able to take
          place."

          I don't think that I would say that everyone who takes David Icke
          seriously can be put into this category, anymore than I would say
          that all Roman Catholics (one of the worst and most destructive
          cults of all time, in my opinion) could be put into this category.
          If you step back from the "trees" of the Roman Catholic Church, and
          view the whole "forest", you could certainly say the same things
          that you said about David Icke's followers about all Roman
          Catholics. Just replace the words "aliens and mysteries" in your
          above narrative with "Jesus Christ and the Saints", and the
          word "Icke" with "Roman Catholic".

          But this category that you put all of David Icke's followers into
          would certainly not apply to all Roman Catholics either.

          Prometheus, you wrote "Icke presents a schizophrenic view of world
          society by
          presenting the reptilian/alien mind control-Jewish/Rothschild
          banking conspiracy agenda, etc., etc., but also states that it is
          also a "The Matrix" like illusion! If it is all illusion then does
          the rest really matter?"

          This whole idea of everything being a grand illusion, and yet still
          being important and mattering is not a new concept. It is very
          prevalent in some Eastern philosophies, and is certainly not unique
          to David Icke. This is a common concept throughout much of both the
          Zen and Taoist teachings in particular. It is understood in these
          teachings that the entire universe is a self created illusion, which
          doesn't exist in the sense that we have been taught to believe that
          it does, and yet still matters for the education and spiritual
          growth of the souls that dwell there.

          The highest form of realization is taught to be a state of beingness
          where one has fully realized this illusory nature of life, and yet
          consciously enters back into the illusion to help all the other
          beings that are still trapped in it. This is what David Icke is
          talking about here.

          You say that Icke is basically anti-American. I don't think that he
          is at all. To me, being anti-American means that you don't believe
          in, or you go against the Constitution of the United States. I don't
          see where David Icke has done that. By this definition, the whole
          Bush administration is anti-American, and in my strong opinion, Bush
          should be impeached and removed from office for committing war
          crimes and going against the United States Constitution. Believe me,
          I am a very patriotic man by the true definition of the term.

          And lastly, you wrote: "Intuition, insight,
          clarity, love and joy are all factors that I experience in my life.
          Where are these in the world of David Icke and company? Nowhere!"

          Actually, David Icke's writings stress all of the above quite a bit.
          He speaks at length about developing your intuitive faculties, and
          living your life from the vantage point of who you really are: A
          divine, eternal, immortal, and infinitely loving being that is
          actually already free from it's self created traps in the lower
          worlds, and is already dwelling in the infinite love and joy of it's
          own Beingness.

          Anyway, thanks for your insights on this, even though we obviously
          have very different opinions about it!

          Take care!


          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
          <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
          > Hello Truthdecider,
          >
          > Welcome to the site!
          >
          > In regard to Icke, he does go after international bankers and
          Jewish
          > leaders by claiming that the Jewish race is just a conspiracy to
          rob
          > Gentiles of their money... but then claims that he does not hate
          > the "ordinary" Jew. Icke is basically anti-U.S., anti-Semitic, but
          > pro Al-Jazeera. Icke also makes a lot of wild claims with no
          > validation and mixes these with some claims grounded in fact.
          Funny,
          > how he supports the TRANCEformation of America con to validate his
          > con. Usually Icke just does a fear mongering reptilian rehash on
          his
          > books. Icke presents a schizophrenic view of world society by
          > presenting the reptilian/alien mind control-Jewish/Rothschild
          > banking conspiracy agenda, etc., etc., but also states that it is
          > also a "The Matrix" like illusion! If it is all illusion then does
          > the rest really matter? Anyway, it is obviously a con and a lower
          > consciousness and negative belief system that Icke has created for
          > those who need to have a some sort of a belief system, purpose,
          and
          > understanding for the lack of control they feel. Some Icke
          followers
          > have never had a true spiritual experience, and are therefore
          > seeking a new secular religion based in conspiracy (which do exist
          > and can be proven). These Icke/TRANCE believers are liken to a
          > drowning man grabbing at straws to stay afloat! They have no other
          > valid belief system to explain why things are as they are. They
          want
          > to believe in aliens and mysteries closer to discovery and
          > understanding (in their minds) which bolster their ego's survival
          > mechanisms. True spiritual knowingness is beyond their reach due
          to
          > a wide varity of factors, therefore, they seek a new
          > rationalization, explaination, and purpose. But, this is merely a
          > means of cementing themselves into a new box filled with even more
          > illusions and delusions. A total belief in Icke and those with
          > similar beliefs and agendas will possibly prevent (for those
          > believers) true critical thinking from ever being able to take
          > place.
          >
          > I still view all of this as a testing ground for Soul, and I have
          > had spiritual experiences to validate this! Intuition, insight,
          > clarity, love and joy are all factors that I experience in my
          life.
          > Where are these in the world of David Icke and company? Nowhere!
          >
          > Anyway, it's just my opinion. However, I would also like for you
          to
          > put your HCS post on Surat Shabda Yoga on this site. I enjoyed
          that
          > post and have some comments that I'd like to make.
          >
          > Thanks again for posting. I hope you will continue to participate
          on
          > this site.
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "truthdecider"
          > <truthdecider@y...> wrote:
          > > Hello All,
          > >
          > > I posted most of this over on the ET site, but I thought I would
          > put
          > > it here as well, seeing as how there has been considerable
          > > discussion about these topics here as well.
          > >
          > > My search into the ideas of the possibility of Aliens,
          government
          > > coverups, etc. started after having very direct
          > > experiences with spacecraft that defy all known laws of physics
          as
          > we
          > > have been taught them, and then a lot of harrassment by some very
          > > nasty people when I asked too many questions about it all.
          > >
          > > There is so much information, mis-information, and deliberate
          > > dis-information on the internet about all of these groups and
          > topics
          > > that one ultimately needs to trust their own intuition as far as
          > who
          > > they believe to be speaking at a level that is somewhat close to
          > the
          > > truth.
          > >
          > > For example, Mish mentions that she read that David Icke is a
          Neo-
          > > Nazi. But how do we know that what Mish read about this is valid
          > > information?
          > > There are some web sites out there that state this,
          > > and then try and support and validate that position. I've read
          all
          > of
          > > this as well. However, we need to remember that there are groups
          of
          > > very powerful people in existance that could could decide to
          target
          > > even the sweetest old man in the world, and manufacture and plant
          > > enough evidence on him that would convince the rest of the world
          > that
          > > he was a viscious child molester overnight. If these people
          wanted
          > > this old man out of the way for some reason, if they perceived
          him
          > as
          > > a threat to whatever their agenda is, then they would do this to
          > him
          > > in a heartbeat.
          > >
          > > In my opinion, the reason that this kind of overt action isn't
          > > taken against someone like Icke is that he is way too public
          > already,
          > > and too many of his supporters are aware of how these kinds of
          > setups
          > > are orchestrated, and would all work very hard to expose the
          > > manufacured evidence. But the poor little old man, or woman, or
          > > college kid that just one day decides to start voicing things
          that
          > > this group of people feels is too damaging to their agenda can be
          > > setup like this very easily.
          > >
          > > But manufacturing falsehoods and stories about someone, and
          posting
          > > this false info in newsgroups, BBS's and/or setting up web sites
          to
          > > spread such dis-information is very easy to do to target anyone.
          > >
          > > So, to build on Mish's very good point, we can't take ANY of this
          > > stuff that we read on the internet about any of these groups or
          > > people
          > > at face value. We need to trust our own intuition, which is
          exactly
          > > what I do.
          > >
          > > Now, having said all of this, I need to make it crystal clear
          that
          > > I am in no way sure at this point that I trust David Icke,
          > Cassiopia,
          > > HCS, or ANY of these groups. My jury is still out on all of
          them,
          > as
          > > these things, even with intuition, can take time.
          > >
          > > I am only very sure of three things:
          > >
          > > 1. Something is VERY WRONG with our government today. You can
          even
          > > see this in the recent news about some of the laws that are being
          > > passed with regards to our personal property rights, our right to
          > > privacy, etc.
          > >
          > > 2. There exists on this planet technology and scientific
          > > discoveries that go way beyond what the general public knows
          > about. I
          > > don't honestly know if these were developed here on earth, or if
          > they
          > > are extraterrestrial in nature, but I do know first hand that
          they
          > > exist.
          > >
          > > 3. There are people that very much don't want these technologies
          > > and discoveries to become public knowledge. I don't know exactly
          > why
          > > that is, but I also know first hand that this is true.
          > >
          > > Beyond being sure that the above three things are true, I am even
          > > more sure that I am an eternal, immortal being, as we all are.
          > This I
          > > also know from direct experience, as I'm sure many others here
          do.
          > >
          > > It is my goal and journey to find answers to the three things
          > > mentioned above, as I feel it is vital to spirituality. Just as
          > > vital,
          > > if not more vital than discovering the lies and deceptions that
          may
          > > exist in any number of religious and spiritual paths and
          teachings.
          > >
          > > However, it is in no way my desire to convince anyone else that
          > > these things are spiritually important for them. And I am
          certainly
          > > not trying to convince anyone else about any particular groups
          > ideas,
          > > as I don't even know which, if any, groups I really trust at
          this
          > > point.
          > >
          > > If it is felt that there is no place for any further discussion
          or
          > > exploration in this group about any of the above mentioned
          ideas,
          > and
          > > how they relate to spirituality, than I can assure everyone that
          it
          > > will not be brought up again.
          > >
          > > With best regards,
          > >
          > > Truthdecider
        • prometheus_973
          ... possibly expect most people to go along with the whole shape- shifting reptilian thing, even if he himself does actually believe this. And he should
          Message 4 of 15 , Jul 1, 2005
            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "truthdecider"
            <truthdecider@y...> wrote:
            > Hello Prometheus!

            >Firstly, I agree that David Icke definitely goes too far. He can't
            possibly expect most people to go along with the whole shape-
            shifting reptilian thing, even if he himself does actually believe
            this. And he should realize that. Also, I feel that a lot of his
            books are redundant and repetitive, and dwell too much on his
            perceived negativity in the world. Because of things like this, one
            certainly has to wonder what his motives really are.

            >However, if you strip away all of the reptilian stuff, his over
            stressing of negativity as he perceives it, and his repetitiveness,
            his essential message, as I see it, is still good.


            I would also include stripping away the false "Protocols of the
            Elders of Zion" along with the reptilian stuff!


            >And his essential message is that we live on a planet that is
            largely controlled by people in power who are, for the most part,
            negative, but it really doesn't matter, because we are all eternal,
            immortal spiritual beings, and we only need to reawaken ourselves to
            this fact to free ourselves from this trap, which is actually self
            created anyway.


            Any true spiritual seeker alreadys knows this! This is what
            Eckankar, Hindus, New Age religions, and many of us already know!
            He's preaching to the choir! So, why are some people
            (on TS/HCS) preaching this message to those who already know it?


            >He further states that those negative people in power are actually
            just extensions or reflections of the negative aspects of ourselves.


            Except, people also need to take ownership and responsibility for
            their actions. It's all a part of our spiritual evolution just as
            karma is. It is a testing ground for Soul.


            >Hence, the awakening of our true, highest nature not only frees us
            spiritually, but helps the world at large become more spiritually
            free due to the synergistic effect this has on dissipating this self
            created negativity that we have all manifested, due to the fact that
            the negative aspects of our lower natures have had too strong a say
            in things for too many lifetimes on this planet.


            Icke should worry more about the negativity, delusion,
            misinformation, and fear that he has generated not only for himself
            but especially for others through his words. Why are those with a
            positive outlook criticized for not buying into the gloom and doom?


            >This essential message of David Icke's is not too different from
            the essential message of many other spiritual teachings that are
            considered very legitimate by many people.


            Icke's essential message is that of fear! Which is nothing new
            either! Just listen to Bush! Icke is no more a "spiritual" teacher
            than Mario is.


            >So, in a nutshell, I feel that his essential points are quite
            valid, but his approach to communicating this, and his over dwelling
            on certain aspects of his perceptions of negativity leave a lot to
            be desired, and do somewhat call his agenda into question.


            In other words Twichell, Gross, and Klemp had similar points and
            (money) agendas except for the reptilians-alien mind control
            conspiracies thing and the "Protocols."


            >This whole idea of everything being a grand illusion, and yet still
            being important and mattering is not a new concept. It is very
            prevalent in some Eastern philosophies, and is certainly not unique
            to David Icke. This is a common concept throughout much of both the
            Zen and Taoist teachings in particular. It is understood in these
            teachings that the entire universe is a self created illusion, which
            doesn't exist in the sense that we have been taught to believe that
            it does, and yet still matters for the education and spiritual
            growth of the souls that dwell there.


            Preceisely! Therefore Icke could have borrowed this concept to give
            his con a spiritual twist. Others have been successful by doing the
            exact same thing! I have to look at the honesty and sanity of Icke
            and those he associates and aligns himself with as well. Icke
            overwhelms people with information and speculation in order to
            confuse them. Eventually one justs gives in and accepts all of the
            mind boggling information as being correct and truthful (a very good
            brain-washing technique). It's a giant leap of faith to believe that
            Icke's motives for selling himself are fair and just, but why give
            anyone that much power over you?


            >The highest form of realization is taught to be a state of
            beingness where one has fully realized this illusory nature of life,
            and yet consciously enters back into the illusion to help all the
            other beings that are still trapped in it. This is what David Icke
            is talking about here.


            Not when Iche is using the false and anti-Jewish "Protocols of the
            Elders of Zion" which led to the Holocaust! That point alone should
            raise the Red Flags to anyone who has any doubts about Icke.


            >You say that Icke is basically anti-American.



            No, I said he is anti-U.S. Icke states that the U.S. government is
            involved with (now and in the past) an alien-reptilian mind control
            conspiracy. Perhaps I should have said that Icke is anti-U.S.
            government.



            >And lastly, you wrote: "Intuition, insight, clarity, love and joy
            are all factors that I experience in my life. Where are these in the
            world of David Icke and company? Nowhere!"

            >Actually, David Icke's writings stress all of the above quite a
            bit. He speaks at length about developing your intuitive faculties,
            and living your life from the vantage point of who you really are: A
            divine, eternal, immortal, and infinitely loving being that is
            actually already free from it's self created traps in the lower
            worlds, and is already dwelling in the infinite love and joy of it's
            own Beingness.


            Yes, talk is cheap! Just look at Klemp! However, Icke is also a liar
            just like his "TRANCE" buddies (Mark Phillips and Cathy O'Brien).
            The self created trap is believing that these people are not only
            being truthful, but that they also impart a "spiritual" message. I
            guess that Hitler and Stalin had spiritual messages too! Right
            judgment and critical thinking have been shut out by these "true
            believers" who ego's are "outside of the box." They have accepted an
            unoriginal, negative, and fictional mixture of partial truths to
            form a new secular religion with Ickeists like themselves.

            Prometheus
          • ctecvie
            Hello Prometheus / Truthdecider, first let me say how much I enjoy the discussions going on here on ESA - very interesting for sure! ... the ... faculties, ...
            Message 5 of 15 , Jul 2, 2005
              Hello Prometheus / Truthdecider,

              first let me say how much I enjoy the discussions going on here on
              ESA - very interesting for sure!

              > >And lastly, you wrote: "Intuition, insight, clarity, love and joy
              > are all factors that I experience in my life. Where are these in
              the
              > world of David Icke and company? Nowhere!"
              >
              > >Actually, David Icke's writings stress all of the above quite a
              > bit. He speaks at length about developing your intuitive
              faculties,
              > and living your life from the vantage point of who you really are:
              A
              > divine, eternal, immortal, and infinitely loving being that is
              > actually already free from it's self created traps in the lower
              > worlds, and is already dwelling in the infinite love and joy of
              it's
              > own Beingness.
              >
              >
              > Yes, talk is cheap! Just look at Klemp! However, Icke is also a
              liar
              > just like his "TRANCE" buddies (Mark Phillips and Cathy O'Brien).
              > The self created trap is believing that these people are not only
              > being truthful, but that they also impart a "spiritual" message. I
              > guess that Hitler and Stalin had spiritual messages too! Right
              > judgment and critical thinking have been shut out by these "true
              > believers" who ego's are "outside of the box." They have accepted
              an
              > unoriginal, negative, and fictional mixture of partial truths to
              > form a new secular religion with Ickeists like themselves.

              You make a very good point here, Prometheus. Hitler had in fact a
              spiritual message, at least that was his point of view. He was in
              fact very interested in spiritual matters and knew a lot about it.
              He knew that the Swastika was a very powerful sign - he just turned
              it around, and thus lost its positive power and turned into a
              negative sign. He knew exactly about how to turn things around to
              influence, brainwash and harm people. Today, we always wonder how
              this could have happened, that so many people believed in Hitler -
              but in fact, it's happening here and now as well. The faith we put
              in so-called spiritual leaders and people like Icke and the
              Tranceformation people - it's the same faith Hitler's followers put
              in Hitler. The difference is only that those people obviously don't
              have as much power as Hitler had,and are not as dangerous as Hitler
              was. But if you strip everything and leave just the faith, then
              that's it.

              Ingrid
            • mishmisha9
              Hello, Prometheus, Truthdecider and Ingrid! Thank you for your posts on this subject which I find interesting as well. The one thing that came to mind for me
              Message 6 of 15 , Jul 2, 2005
                Hello, Prometheus, Truthdecider and Ingrid!

                Thank you for your posts on this subject which I find interesting as
                well. The one thing that came to mind for me is why bother to strip
                the gunk away to find that "truth" Icke has taken from other
                sources to begin with? It seems like a lot of bother in reading
                Icke, and instead one should just go to the originators of this
                truth. Also, what makes Icke so more knowing than you or me or
                anyone else? He seems to have popped up out of nowhere. I can
                imagine that without the Internet sites that he has he would not
                still be so popular or receive the attention he does.

                One's experiences in truth should be able to stand on their own
                merit without the comparison to or approval of someone else.

                Mish

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
                > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "truthdecider"
                > <truthdecider@y...> wrote:
                > > Hello Prometheus!
                >
                > >Firstly, I agree that David Icke definitely goes too far. He
                can't
                > possibly expect most people to go along with the whole shape-
                > shifting reptilian thing, even if he himself does actually believe
                > this. And he should realize that. Also, I feel that a lot of his
                > books are redundant and repetitive, and dwell too much on his
                > perceived negativity in the world. Because of things like this,
                one
                > certainly has to wonder what his motives really are.
                >
                > >However, if you strip away all of the reptilian stuff, his over
                > stressing of negativity as he perceives it, and his
                repetitiveness,
                > his essential message, as I see it, is still good.
                >
                >
                > I would also include stripping away the false "Protocols of the
                > Elders of Zion" along with the reptilian stuff!
                >
                >
                > >And his essential message is that we live on a planet that is
                > largely controlled by people in power who are, for the most part,
                > negative, but it really doesn't matter, because we are all
                eternal,
                > immortal spiritual beings, and we only need to reawaken ourselves
                to
                > this fact to free ourselves from this trap, which is actually self
                > created anyway.
                >
                >
                > Any true spiritual seeker alreadys knows this! This is what
                > Eckankar, Hindus, New Age religions, and many of us already know!
                > He's preaching to the choir! So, why are some people
                > (on TS/HCS) preaching this message to those who already know it?
                >
                >
                > >He further states that those negative people in power are
                actually
                > just extensions or reflections of the negative aspects of
                ourselves.
                >
                >
                > Except, people also need to take ownership and responsibility for
                > their actions. It's all a part of our spiritual evolution just as
                > karma is. It is a testing ground for Soul.
                >
                >
                > >Hence, the awakening of our true, highest nature not only frees
                us
                > spiritually, but helps the world at large become more spiritually
                > free due to the synergistic effect this has on dissipating this
                self
                > created negativity that we have all manifested, due to the fact
                that
                > the negative aspects of our lower natures have had too strong a
                say
                > in things for too many lifetimes on this planet.
                >
                >
                > Icke should worry more about the negativity, delusion,
                > misinformation, and fear that he has generated not only for
                himself
                > but especially for others through his words. Why are those with a
                > positive outlook criticized for not buying into the gloom and doom?
                >
                >
                > >This essential message of David Icke's is not too different from
                > the essential message of many other spiritual teachings that are
                > considered very legitimate by many people.
                >
                >
                > Icke's essential message is that of fear! Which is nothing new
                > either! Just listen to Bush! Icke is no more a "spiritual" teacher
                > than Mario is.
                >
                >
                > >So, in a nutshell, I feel that his essential points are quite
                > valid, but his approach to communicating this, and his over
                dwelling
                > on certain aspects of his perceptions of negativity leave a lot to
                > be desired, and do somewhat call his agenda into question.
                >
                >
                > In other words Twichell, Gross, and Klemp had similar points and
                > (money) agendas except for the reptilians-alien mind control
                > conspiracies thing and the "Protocols."
                >
                >
                > >This whole idea of everything being a grand illusion, and yet
                still
                > being important and mattering is not a new concept. It is very
                > prevalent in some Eastern philosophies, and is certainly not
                unique
                > to David Icke. This is a common concept throughout much of both
                the
                > Zen and Taoist teachings in particular. It is understood in these
                > teachings that the entire universe is a self created illusion,
                which
                > doesn't exist in the sense that we have been taught to believe
                that
                > it does, and yet still matters for the education and spiritual
                > growth of the souls that dwell there.
                >
                >
                > Preceisely! Therefore Icke could have borrowed this concept to
                give
                > his con a spiritual twist. Others have been successful by doing
                the
                > exact same thing! I have to look at the honesty and sanity of Icke
                > and those he associates and aligns himself with as well. Icke
                > overwhelms people with information and speculation in order to
                > confuse them. Eventually one justs gives in and accepts all of the
                > mind boggling information as being correct and truthful (a very
                good
                > brain-washing technique). It's a giant leap of faith to believe
                that
                > Icke's motives for selling himself are fair and just, but why give
                > anyone that much power over you?
                >
                >
                > >The highest form of realization is taught to be a state of
                > beingness where one has fully realized this illusory nature of
                life,
                > and yet consciously enters back into the illusion to help all the
                > other beings that are still trapped in it. This is what David Icke
                > is talking about here.
                >
                >
                > Not when Iche is using the false and anti-Jewish "Protocols of the
                > Elders of Zion" which led to the Holocaust! That point alone
                should
                > raise the Red Flags to anyone who has any doubts about Icke.
                >
                >
                > >You say that Icke is basically anti-American.
                >
                >
                >
                > No, I said he is anti-U.S. Icke states that the U.S. government is
                > involved with (now and in the past) an alien-reptilian mind
                control
                > conspiracy. Perhaps I should have said that Icke is anti-U.S.
                > government.
                >
                >
                >
                > >And lastly, you wrote: "Intuition, insight, clarity, love and joy
                > are all factors that I experience in my life. Where are these in
                the
                > world of David Icke and company? Nowhere!"
                >
                > >Actually, David Icke's writings stress all of the above quite a
                > bit. He speaks at length about developing your intuitive
                faculties,
                > and living your life from the vantage point of who you really are:
                A
                > divine, eternal, immortal, and infinitely loving being that is
                > actually already free from it's self created traps in the lower
                > worlds, and is already dwelling in the infinite love and joy of
                it's
                > own Beingness.
                >
                >
                > Yes, talk is cheap! Just look at Klemp! However, Icke is also a
                liar
                > just like his "TRANCE" buddies (Mark Phillips and Cathy O'Brien).
                > The self created trap is believing that these people are not only
                > being truthful, but that they also impart a "spiritual" message. I
                > guess that Hitler and Stalin had spiritual messages too! Right
                > judgment and critical thinking have been shut out by these "true
                > believers" who ego's are "outside of the box." They have accepted
                an
                > unoriginal, negative, and fictional mixture of partial truths to
                > form a new secular religion with Ickeists like themselves.
                >
                > Prometheus
              • prometheus_973
                Hi Ingrid, Yes, Icke the pseudo expert and pseudo spiritual master spreads fear and hatred through lies and misinformation much like those infamous figures in
                Message 7 of 15 , Jul 2, 2005
                  Hi Ingrid,
                  Yes, Icke the pseudo expert and pseudo spiritual master spreads fear
                  and hatred through lies and misinformation much like those infamous
                  figures in history. Icke doesn't even believe that the Holocaust
                  took place! It is interesting how these power and money hungry con
                  artists find just the right scam in order to pull in the suckers.
                  Did you ever see the movie "The Sting" with Paul Newman and Robert
                  Redford? This movie is a blueprint to show how easy it is to trick
                  foolish, greedy, and egotistical people with partial truth.

                  On another note: Yes, conspiracies have always existed... they too
                  are part of the "testing ground for Soul" concept. However, this
                  also means that we (Souls) have all lived before which means that we
                  have been of different gender, race, religion, etc. , and have been
                  both victim and persecutor.

                  Betty, over on HCS, makes the statement that "everything is
                  spiritual" as a means to justify her and Mario's constant ramblings
                  of conspiracy/"spiritual" topics. If one sees life as a testing
                  ground for Soul then she is correct, in part, that everything is
                  spiritual. However, there is much more to this statement than she is
                  apparently capable of seeing. Yes, there is negative and positive
                  and something inbetween. But why chose or promote a negative con and
                  its fear and hatred spin over the opposite? Where are the spiritual
                  lessons to be learned and the responsibility to yourself and to
                  others in finding real truth and sharing it (isn't the glass half
                  full?). Apparently, Betty and Mario used no caution or
                  discrimination in finding their new beliefs. Then again, according
                  to their past BB posts, they bought into Icke and others while still
                  being happily deluded members of Eckankar (pre-"Confessions"). What
                  Icke presents, especially, with the "Protocols" (Illumanati) has
                  been proven to be false by real experts. Therefore, how can one
                  trust anything else Icke has to say when using any other "facts." As
                  I have said before... Icke inundates his readers with so much
                  information that most just accept it all as factual. After all, why
                  question the words of an expert, or for that matter of a master?

                  Of course, Ford has to take some responsibility, as well, for
                  allowing the B&M crap to be posted constantly on his BBs. But, more
                  on that in another post.

                  Prometheus




                  >>Yes, talk is cheap! Just look at Klemp! However, Icke is also a
                  liar just like his "TRANCE" buddies (Mark Phillips and Cathy
                  O'Brien). The self created trap is believing that these people are
                  not only being truthful, but that they also impart a "spiritual"
                  message. I guess that Hitler and Stalin had spiritual messages too!
                  Right judgment and critical thinking have been shut out by
                  these "true believers" who ego's are "outside of the box." They have
                  accepted an unoriginal, negative, and fictional mixture of partial
                  truths to form a new secular religion with Ickeists like themselves.

                  > You make a very good point here, Prometheus. Hitler had in fact a
                  spiritual message, at least that was his point of view. He was in
                  fact very interested in spiritual matters and knew a lot about it.
                  He knew that the Swastika was a very powerful sign - he just turned
                  it around, and thus lost its positive power and turned into a
                  negative sign. He knew exactly about how to turn things around to
                  influence, brainwash and harm people. Today, we always wonder how
                  this could have happened, that so many people believed in Hitler -
                  but in fact, it's happening here and now as well. The faith we put
                  in so-called spiritual leaders and people like Icke and the
                  Tranceformation people - it's the same faith Hitler's followers put
                  in Hitler. The difference is only that those people obviously don't
                  have as much power as Hitler had,and are not as dangerous as Hitler
                  was. But if you strip everything and leave just the faith, then
                  that's it.

                  > Ingrid
                • ctecvie
                  Hello Truthdecider, your last post is so powerful, and I don t really know what to say at this point. Just let me tell you that I m so glad to have you on ESA.
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jul 4, 2005
                    Hello Truthdecider,

                    your last post is so powerful, and I don't really know what to say
                    at this point. Just let me tell you that I'm so glad to have you on
                    ESA. I perceive you as a very kind and thoughtful man, and even if I
                    don't know you at all, I like you very much.

                    Thank you for your openness, this is very courageous of you. I will
                    have to think and feel a bit more about what you said in your post,
                    and then come back to you.

                    All the best,
                    Ingrid

                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "truthdecider"
                    <truthdecider@y...> wrote:
                    > Hello Prometheus, Ingrid, and Mish,
                    >
                    > Mish, forgive me, but at this point, my responding to the points
                    that
                    > you made in your David Icke post would be rather pointless, as my
                    > thinking on this whole thing has shifted dramatically, as you will
                    see.
                    >
                    > I was away the past 2 days enjoying some wonderful time with
                    family,
                    > and a huge Fourth of July party. However, in spite of all the fun
                    and
                    > festivities, it has been occurring to me, much to my dismay, that I
                    > still seem to have a tremendous aptitude for extreme self-
                    deception. I
                    > mean, I know who I am, on some very deep and fundamental levels,
                    but I
                    > still seem to have an almost amazing knack for getting sucked into
                    > "spiritual" kinds of teachings that, temporarily anyway, give me
                    > something to hold onto that fills a very large black hole of self
                    hate
                    > that still exists inside of me, which has been there since early
                    > childhood.
                    >
                    > I lived through some pretty heavy emotional and physical abuse
                    during
                    > very early childhood. This damaged my formative years quite
                    severely,
                    > and led to drug abuse and addiction throughout adolescence and my
                    teen
                    > years. What completely pulled me out of this was Eastern religion,
                    > martial arts, and, by far, most extensively, Eckankar. Connecting
                    with
                    > the light and sound, and the Eck masters healed me in ways that I
                    am
                    > still eternally grateful for.
                    >
                    > However, after enjoying an all to brief period in my early
                    twenties,
                    > when, for the first time in my life, I truly felt healed and whole,
                    > and full of genuine self love, the whole Darwin thing came crashing
                    > down around me. This was, of course, in the early 1980s.
                    >
                    > I never really was able to find that same center inside myself with
                    > the Eck teachings that I had found for that brief time after the
                    whole
                    > Darwin crash happened. I trudged along as best I could, and
                    constantly
                    > tried to find that again. Life was still much, much better than it
                    > had been before I first found Eckankar, but I had lost that deep
                    sense
                    > of balance and self love that I had so enjoyed for that brief time.
                    >
                    > Then in the late 80s, I encountered first hand, very direct,
                    dramatic,
                    > experiences with UFOs, and then, subsequently, encounters with very
                    > nasty people that wished to silence me from discussing these
                    > experiences, or asking too many questions about them. This was in
                    no
                    > way self-delusional, as these kinds of things were experienced by
                    > literally hundreds of people in New York's Hudson Valley area
                    during
                    > this time. There are 3 books written about all of this that are
                    > available on Amazon.com, but all of this is another story for
                    another
                    > post at some other time.
                    >
                    > In any event, it was these experiences that led to reading books by
                    > David Icke, and a host of others, to try and understand just what
                    the
                    > hell was going on with all of this stuff. It really shook to me to
                    my
                    > core to learn first hand that there really are technologies that go
                    > way beyond the laws of physics as we know them, and more
                    importantly,
                    > that I really didn't have a lot of the freedoms that I had been
                    led to
                    > believe that I had as an American citizen. That there were really
                    > people out there that would threaten to kill me if I would not
                    shut up
                    > about what I had seen. If you haven't lived through these kinds of
                    > experiences, then it is very difficult to understand what I really
                    > mean, and what this does to you.
                    >
                    > So I guess my question for you guys is: What the hell IS out
                    there, in
                    > your opinion, that you can trust and work with, in addition to your
                    > own higher selves, that is of a spiritual nature? I mean, you all
                    seem
                    > to be aware that higher spiritual realities do exist, and that
                    there
                    > is some truth to the fact that our government is not what it is
                    > cracked up to be, which I certainly know first hand. But if
                    Cassiopia,
                    > David Icke, HCS, Eckankar, Michael Owens, and all the rest are just
                    > more lies and traps, than what is out there that is real and
                    > trustworthy? Because, very sadly, even though I KNOW I AM SOUL on
                    some
                    > very deep level, my mind just doesn't seem to be able to learn to
                    let
                    > me love myself enough to not need some sort of external support
                    system
                    > at this point.
                    >
                    > I know that I am not the mind, and that I should be able to just
                    not
                    > be affected by it, and just move past it, and trust the real me,
                    Soul.
                    > However, the self-hate engrams that are still part of the mind seem
                    > way too strong at times to let me do this.
                    >
                    > I have tried going to counseling on three separate occasions
                    within
                    > the last few years, but that has not worked out at all. The kind of
                    > issues that I bring to the table seem to be way outside the scope
                    of
                    > what these therapists know how to deal with. I have literally blown
                    > them all away, in one way or another, and I end up needing to stop
                    going.
                    >
                    > I am at a loss, and I feel very frustrated and tired at this
                    point. I
                    > really don't know where to turn anymore. I hope that someone out
                    there
                    > can say something that will help guide me in the right direction.
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                    > <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
                    > > Hi Ingrid,
                    > > Yes, Icke the pseudo expert and pseudo spiritual master spreads
                    fear
                    > > and hatred through lies and misinformation much like those
                    infamous
                    > > figures in history. Icke doesn't even believe that the Holocaust
                    > > took place! It is interesting how these power and money hungry
                    con
                    > > artists find just the right scam in order to pull in the
                    suckers.
                    > > Did you ever see the movie "The Sting" with Paul Newman and
                    Robert
                    > > Redford? This movie is a blueprint to show how easy it is to
                    trick
                    > > foolish, greedy, and egotistical people with partial truth.
                    > >
                    > > On another note: Yes, conspiracies have always existed... they
                    too
                    > > are part of the "testing ground for Soul" concept. However, this
                    > > also means that we (Souls) have all lived before which means
                    that we
                    > > have been of different gender, race, religion, etc. , and have
                    been
                    > > both victim and persecutor.
                    > >
                    > > Betty, over on HCS, makes the statement that "everything is
                    > > spiritual" as a means to justify her and Mario's constant
                    ramblings
                    > > of conspiracy/"spiritual" topics. If one sees life as a testing
                    > > ground for Soul then she is correct, in part, that everything is
                    > > spiritual. However, there is much more to this statement than
                    she is
                    > > apparently capable of seeing. Yes, there is negative and
                    positive
                    > > and something inbetween. But why chose or promote a negative con
                    and
                    > > its fear and hatred spin over the opposite? Where are the
                    spiritual
                    > > lessons to be learned and the responsibility to yourself and to
                    > > others in finding real truth and sharing it (isn't the glass
                    half
                    > > full?). Apparently, Betty and Mario used no caution or
                    > > discrimination in finding their new beliefs. Then again,
                    according
                    > > to their past BB posts, they bought into Icke and others while
                    still
                    > > being happily deluded members of Eckankar (pre-"Confessions").
                    What
                    > > Icke presents, especially, with the "Protocols" (Illumanati) has
                    > > been proven to be false by real experts. Therefore, how can one
                    > > trust anything else Icke has to say when using any
                    other "facts." As
                    > > I have said before... Icke inundates his readers with so much
                    > > information that most just accept it all as factual. After all,
                    why
                    > > question the words of an expert, or for that matter of a master?
                    > >
                    > > Of course, Ford has to take some responsibility, as well, for
                    > > allowing the B&M crap to be posted constantly on his BBs. But,
                    more
                    > > on that in another post.
                    > >
                    > > Prometheus
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > >>Yes, talk is cheap! Just look at Klemp! However, Icke is also
                    a
                    > > liar just like his "TRANCE" buddies (Mark Phillips and Cathy
                    > > O'Brien). The self created trap is believing that these people
                    are
                    > > not only being truthful, but that they also impart a "spiritual"
                    > > message. I guess that Hitler and Stalin had spiritual messages
                    too!
                    > > Right judgment and critical thinking have been shut out by
                    > > these "true believers" who ego's are "outside of the box." They
                    have
                    > > accepted an unoriginal, negative, and fictional mixture of
                    partial
                    > > truths to form a new secular religion with Ickeists like
                    themselves.
                    > >
                    > > > You make a very good point here, Prometheus. Hitler had in
                    fact a
                    > > spiritual message, at least that was his point of view. He was
                    in
                    > > fact very interested in spiritual matters and knew a lot about
                    it.
                    > > He knew that the Swastika was a very powerful sign - he just
                    turned
                    > > it around, and thus lost its positive power and turned into a
                    > > negative sign. He knew exactly about how to turn things around
                    to
                    > > influence, brainwash and harm people. Today, we always wonder
                    how
                    > > this could have happened, that so many people believed in
                    Hitler -
                    > > but in fact, it's happening here and now as well. The faith we
                    put
                    > > in so-called spiritual leaders and people like Icke and the
                    > > Tranceformation people - it's the same faith Hitler's followers
                    put
                    > > in Hitler. The difference is only that those people obviously
                    don't
                    > > have as much power as Hitler had,and are not as dangerous as
                    Hitler
                    > > was. But if you strip everything and leave just the faith, then
                    > > that's it.
                    > >
                    > > > Ingrid
                  • Freefrom
                    Truth Decider, I can very much identify with what you say about the black hole of self-hate and how this affects our ability to steer clear of different
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jul 4, 2005
                      Truth Decider,

                      I can very much identify with what you say about the "black hole
                      of self-hate" and how this affects our ability to steer clear of
                      different KULTs etc.. When I get into these states I find that
                      sometimes there is a kind of double bind of hating yourself for hating
                      yourself. It may sound ridiculous, but for me it can be a real
                      dillemma. THis is just my experience, but I have noticed that once I
                      recognize that I am doing this and that I am repeating a pattern that
                      I too was forced into from childhood, then there is a sense of
                      spaciousness as I realize that I can open to all of my feelings. This
                      in itself promotes a sense of feeling better, well being. We don't
                      really have to prove ourselves to anyone, unless we are claiming to be
                      a LEM or something like that. :-)

                      Best

                      Freefrom

                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "truthdecider"
                      <truthdecider@y...> wrote:
                      > Hello Prometheus, Ingrid, and Mish,
                      >
                      > Mish, forgive me, but at this point, my responding to the points that
                      > you made in your David Icke post would be rather pointless, as my
                      > thinking on this whole thing has shifted dramatically, as you will see.
                      >
                      > I was away the past 2 days enjoying some wonderful time with family,
                      > and a huge Fourth of July party. However, in spite of all the fun and
                      > festivities, it has been occurring to me, much to my dismay, that I
                      > still seem to have a tremendous aptitude for extreme self-deception. I
                      > mean, I know who I am, on some very deep and fundamental levels, but I
                      > still seem to have an almost amazing knack for getting sucked into
                      > "spiritual" kinds of teachings that, temporarily anyway, give me
                      > something to hold onto that fills a very large black hole of self hate
                      > that still exists inside of me, which has been there since early
                      > childhood.
                      >
                      > I lived through some pretty heavy emotional and physical abuse during
                      > very early childhood. This damaged my formative years quite severely,
                      > and led to drug abuse and addiction throughout adolescence and my teen
                      > years. What completely pulled me out of this was Eastern religion,
                      > martial arts, and, by far, most extensively, Eckankar. Connecting with
                      > the light and sound, and the Eck masters healed me in ways that I am
                      > still eternally grateful for.
                      >
                      > However, after enjoying an all to brief period in my early twenties,
                      > when, for the first time in my life, I truly felt healed and whole,
                      > and full of genuine self love, the whole Darwin thing came crashing
                      > down around me. This was, of course, in the early 1980s.
                      >
                      > I never really was able to find that same center inside myself with
                      > the Eck teachings that I had found for that brief time after the whole
                      > Darwin crash happened. I trudged along as best I could, and constantly
                      > tried to find that again. Life was still much, much better than it
                      > had been before I first found Eckankar, but I had lost that deep sense
                      > of balance and self love that I had so enjoyed for that brief time.
                      >
                      > Then in the late 80s, I encountered first hand, very direct, dramatic,
                      > experiences with UFOs, and then, subsequently, encounters with very
                      > nasty people that wished to silence me from discussing these
                      > experiences, or asking too many questions about them. This was in no
                      > way self-delusional, as these kinds of things were experienced by
                      > literally hundreds of people in New York's Hudson Valley area during
                      > this time. There are 3 books written about all of this that are
                      > available on Amazon.com, but all of this is another story for another
                      > post at some other time.
                      >
                      > In any event, it was these experiences that led to reading books by
                      > David Icke, and a host of others, to try and understand just what the
                      > hell was going on with all of this stuff. It really shook to me to my
                      > core to learn first hand that there really are technologies that go
                      > way beyond the laws of physics as we know them, and more importantly,
                      > that I really didn't have a lot of the freedoms that I had been led to
                      > believe that I had as an American citizen. That there were really
                      > people out there that would threaten to kill me if I would not shut up
                      > about what I had seen. If you haven't lived through these kinds of
                      > experiences, then it is very difficult to understand what I really
                      > mean, and what this does to you.
                      >
                      > So I guess my question for you guys is: What the hell IS out there, in
                      > your opinion, that you can trust and work with, in addition to your
                      > own higher selves, that is of a spiritual nature? I mean, you all seem
                      > to be aware that higher spiritual realities do exist, and that there
                      > is some truth to the fact that our government is not what it is
                      > cracked up to be, which I certainly know first hand. But if Cassiopia,
                      > David Icke, HCS, Eckankar, Michael Owens, and all the rest are just
                      > more lies and traps, than what is out there that is real and
                      > trustworthy? Because, very sadly, even though I KNOW I AM SOUL on some
                      > very deep level, my mind just doesn't seem to be able to learn to let
                      > me love myself enough to not need some sort of external support system
                      > at this point.
                      >
                      > I know that I am not the mind, and that I should be able to just not
                      > be affected by it, and just move past it, and trust the real me, Soul.
                      > However, the self-hate engrams that are still part of the mind seem
                      > way too strong at times to let me do this.
                      >
                      > I have tried going to counseling on three separate occasions within
                      > the last few years, but that has not worked out at all. The kind of
                      > issues that I bring to the table seem to be way outside the scope of
                      > what these therapists know how to deal with. I have literally blown
                      > them all away, in one way or another, and I end up needing to stop
                      going.
                      >
                      > I am at a loss, and I feel very frustrated and tired at this point. I
                      > really don't know where to turn anymore. I hope that someone out there
                      > can say something that will help guide me in the right direction.
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                      > <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
                      > > Hi Ingrid,
                      > > Yes, Icke the pseudo expert and pseudo spiritual master spreads fear
                      > > and hatred through lies and misinformation much like those infamous
                      > > figures in history. Icke doesn't even believe that the Holocaust
                      > > took place! It is interesting how these power and money hungry con
                      > > artists find just the right scam in order to pull in the suckers.
                      > > Did you ever see the movie "The Sting" with Paul Newman and Robert
                      > > Redford? This movie is a blueprint to show how easy it is to trick
                      > > foolish, greedy, and egotistical people with partial truth.
                      > >
                      > > On another note: Yes, conspiracies have always existed... they too
                      > > are part of the "testing ground for Soul" concept. However, this
                      > > also means that we (Souls) have all lived before which means that we
                      > > have been of different gender, race, religion, etc. , and have been
                      > > both victim and persecutor.
                      > >
                      > > Betty, over on HCS, makes the statement that "everything is
                      > > spiritual" as a means to justify her and Mario's constant ramblings
                      > > of conspiracy/"spiritual" topics. If one sees life as a testing
                      > > ground for Soul then she is correct, in part, that everything is
                      > > spiritual. However, there is much more to this statement than she is
                      > > apparently capable of seeing. Yes, there is negative and positive
                      > > and something inbetween. But why chose or promote a negative con and
                      > > its fear and hatred spin over the opposite? Where are the spiritual
                      > > lessons to be learned and the responsibility to yourself and to
                      > > others in finding real truth and sharing it (isn't the glass half
                      > > full?). Apparently, Betty and Mario used no caution or
                      > > discrimination in finding their new beliefs. Then again, according
                      > > to their past BB posts, they bought into Icke and others while still
                      > > being happily deluded members of Eckankar (pre-"Confessions"). What
                      > > Icke presents, especially, with the "Protocols" (Illumanati) has
                      > > been proven to be false by real experts. Therefore, how can one
                      > > trust anything else Icke has to say when using any other "facts." As
                      > > I have said before... Icke inundates his readers with so much
                      > > information that most just accept it all as factual. After all, why
                      > > question the words of an expert, or for that matter of a master?
                      > >
                      > > Of course, Ford has to take some responsibility, as well, for
                      > > allowing the B&M crap to be posted constantly on his BBs. But, more
                      > > on that in another post.
                      > >
                      > > Prometheus
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > >>Yes, talk is cheap! Just look at Klemp! However, Icke is also a
                      > > liar just like his "TRANCE" buddies (Mark Phillips and Cathy
                      > > O'Brien). The self created trap is believing that these people are
                      > > not only being truthful, but that they also impart a "spiritual"
                      > > message. I guess that Hitler and Stalin had spiritual messages too!
                      > > Right judgment and critical thinking have been shut out by
                      > > these "true believers" who ego's are "outside of the box." They have
                      > > accepted an unoriginal, negative, and fictional mixture of partial
                      > > truths to form a new secular religion with Ickeists like themselves.
                      > >
                      > > > You make a very good point here, Prometheus. Hitler had in fact a
                      > > spiritual message, at least that was his point of view. He was in
                      > > fact very interested in spiritual matters and knew a lot about it.
                      > > He knew that the Swastika was a very powerful sign - he just turned
                      > > it around, and thus lost its positive power and turned into a
                      > > negative sign. He knew exactly about how to turn things around to
                      > > influence, brainwash and harm people. Today, we always wonder how
                      > > this could have happened, that so many people believed in Hitler -
                      > > but in fact, it's happening here and now as well. The faith we put
                      > > in so-called spiritual leaders and people like Icke and the
                      > > Tranceformation people - it's the same faith Hitler's followers put
                      > > in Hitler. The difference is only that those people obviously don't
                      > > have as much power as Hitler had,and are not as dangerous as Hitler
                      > > was. But if you strip everything and leave just the faith, then
                      > > that's it.
                      > >
                      > > > Ingrid
                    • mishmisha9
                      Hi, Truthdecider! I want to respond to your post, but I can assure you that I can t answer your questons--that s a certain! : ) ... that ... see. This is just
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jul 5, 2005
                        Hi, Truthdecider!

                        I want to respond to your post, but I can assure you that I can't
                        answer your questons--that's a certain! : )

                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "truthdecider"
                        <truthdecider@y...> wrote:
                        > Hello Prometheus, Ingrid, and Mish,
                        >
                        > Mish, forgive me, but at this point, my responding to the points
                        that
                        > you made in your David Icke post would be rather pointless, as my
                        > thinking on this whole thing has shifted dramatically, as you will
                        see.

                        This is just as well, because I don't know if I really wanted to go
                        into more discussion on Icke--I needed a break! : ) I can see in
                        your post here that you have been thinking a lot which is good. It's
                        funny how one can see something one way, and then after some new
                        thought, see it another. Ever shifting and normal way to look at
                        life and what is going on. I'm not certain if or when we ever get it
                        all figured out.

                        >
                        > I was away the past 2 days enjoying some wonderful time with
                        family,
                        > and a huge Fourth of July party. However, in spite of all the fun
                        and
                        > festivities, it has been occurring to me, much to my dismay, that I
                        > still seem to have a tremendous aptitude for extreme self-
                        deception. I
                        > mean, I know who I am, on some very deep and fundamental levels,
                        but I
                        > still seem to have an almost amazing knack for getting sucked into
                        > "spiritual" kinds of teachings that, temporarily anyway, give me
                        > something to hold onto that fills a very large black hole of self
                        hate
                        > that still exists inside of me, which has been there since early
                        > childhood.

                        You are a truth seeker so of course you are checking out all kinds
                        of spiritual teachings. I don't think that is a bad thing--more
                        people should be into the spiritual. It is the most important aspect
                        of our life.

                        >
                        > I lived through some pretty heavy emotional and physical abuse
                        during
                        > very early childhood. This damaged my formative years quite
                        severely,
                        > and led to drug abuse and addiction throughout adolescence and my
                        teen
                        > years. What completely pulled me out of this was Eastern religion,
                        > martial arts, and, by far, most extensively, Eckankar. Connecting
                        with
                        > the light and sound, and the Eck masters healed me in ways that I
                        am
                        > still eternally grateful for.

                        I'm glad that Eckankar could help you in this regard. I have heard
                        many people express this as well. I feel so sad when I hear about
                        people who were abused as children, and I wish there were more
                        protection for children in our society.


                        >
                        > However, after enjoying an all to brief period in my early
                        twenties,
                        > when, for the first time in my life, I truly felt healed and whole,
                        > and full of genuine self love, the whole Darwin thing came crashing
                        > down around me. This was, of course, in the early 1980s.
                        >
                        > I never really was able to find that same center inside myself with
                        > the Eck teachings that I had found for that brief time after the
                        whole
                        > Darwin crash happened. I trudged along as best I could, and
                        constantly
                        > tried to find that again. Life was still much, much better than it
                        > had been before I first found Eckankar, but I had lost that deep
                        sense
                        > of balance and self love that I had so enjoyed for that brief time.
                        >

                        It was because of the doubt you developed early on in the org., I
                        believe. Many people were not troubled by the Darwin/Harold event
                        and just kept believing. Your intuitive senses were aware of the red
                        flags here, it seems. You still wanted to believe because the belief
                        had helped to balance you, and perhaps you feared going back to
                        square one if you let go of the belief.


                        > Then in the late 80s, I encountered first hand, very direct,
                        dramatic,
                        > experiences with UFOs, and then, subsequently, encounters with very
                        > nasty people that wished to silence me from discussing these
                        > experiences, or asking too many questions about them. This was in
                        no
                        > way self-delusional, as these kinds of things were experienced by
                        > literally hundreds of people in New York's Hudson Valley area
                        during
                        > this time. There are 3 books written about all of this that are
                        > available on Amazon.com, but all of this is another story for
                        another
                        > post at some other time.

                        I am looking forward to hear about this experience.


                        >
                        > In any event, it was these experiences that led to reading books by
                        > David Icke, and a host of others, to try and understand just what
                        the
                        > hell was going on with all of this stuff. It really shook to me to
                        my
                        > core to learn first hand that there really are technologies that go
                        > way beyond the laws of physics as we know them, and more
                        importantly,
                        > that I really didn't have a lot of the freedoms that I had been
                        led to
                        > believe that I had as an American citizen. That there were really
                        > people out there that would threaten to kill me if I would not
                        shut up
                        > about what I had seen. If you haven't lived through these kinds of
                        > experiences, then it is very difficult to understand what I really
                        > mean, and what this does to you.

                        I majored in history/government in college, and learned how most
                        people do not understand what their real right are, or the lack of
                        rights! How government works, in other words.


                        >
                        > So I guess my question for you guys is: What the hell IS out
                        there, in
                        > your opinion, that you can trust and work with, in addition to your
                        > own higher selves, that is of a spiritual nature? I mean, you all
                        seem
                        > to be aware that higher spiritual realities do exist, and that
                        there
                        > is some truth to the fact that our government is not what it is
                        > cracked up to be, which I certainly know first hand. But if
                        Cassiopia,
                        > David Icke, HCS, Eckankar, Michael Owens, and all the rest are just
                        > more lies and traps, than what is out there that is real and
                        > trustworthy?

                        Truthdecider, the truth, as I see it, is what you perceive to be the
                        truth. In other words, it is not other people's spins but what you
                        are able to decipher and learn. If you are an honest individual,
                        which I think you are, you should be able to trust your own beliefs--
                        until they are no longer valid for you, that is. You don't need
                        others to tell you what to think. Will you make mistakes or be
                        mistaken? Of course, but you will be on the right course in finding
                        the spiritual truths you are looking for. So, what is out there for
                        you to believe in--it's you!

                        Because, very sadly, even though I KNOW I AM SOUL on some
                        > very deep level, my mind just doesn't seem to be able to learn to
                        let
                        > me love myself enough to not need some sort of external support
                        system
                        > at this point.
                        >
                        > I know that I am not the mind, and that I should be able to just
                        not
                        > be affected by it, and just move past it, and trust the real me,
                        Soul.
                        > However, the self-hate engrams that are still part of the mind seem
                        > way too strong at times to let me do this.
                        >
                        > I have tried going to counseling on three separate occasions
                        within
                        > the last few years, but that has not worked out at all. The kind of
                        > issues that I bring to the table seem to be way outside the scope
                        of
                        > what these therapists know how to deal with. I have literally blown
                        > them all away, in one way or another, and I end up needing to stop
                        going.
                        >


                        It is good that you recognize this problem and that you are trying
                        to find solution to it. I wish I could help you, beyond telling you
                        that you are a very kind, loving and valuable Soul!

                        > I am at a loss, and I feel very frustrated and tired at this
                        point. I
                        > really don't know where to turn anymore. I hope that someone out
                        there
                        > can say something that will help guide me in the right direction.

                        I'm glad that others have commented and offered some suggestions for
                        you. I hope your frustration and fatigue are short-lived. I do know
                        that laughter and fun is good therapy, especially when one is
                        feeling down. Funny movies, joyful times with friends and family.
                        And then there are people here open to discussion! : )


                        Sorry I can't offer more than this. Your question, even though a
                        good one, is difficult! I like your posts!

                        Mish
                      • l2eigh
                        ... I feel very frustrated and tired at this point. I ... Hi Truthdecider: When I started posting on HCS/TS last year it was as R. After a couple of months I
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jul 6, 2005
                          > So I guess my question for you guys is: What the hell IS out there, in
                          > your opinion, that you can trust and work with, > I am at a loss, and
                          I feel very frustrated and tired at this point. I
                          > really don't know where to turn anymore. I hope that someone out there
                          > can say something that will help guide me in the right direction.


                          Hi Truthdecider:
                          When I started posting on HCS/TS last year it was as R.
                          After a couple of months I quit because there was nothing else to say.
                          Then in January, Garland Peck posted something about Neanderthal Man
                          and why Lemuria/Atlantis was bogus so I got interested again and posted
                          this time in my first and last name Ralph Griffith, so... we "know" one
                          another.
                          I'm just responding to a couple of sentences from your
                          post. Because (like the problem you outline) you can't bring it all
                          inside and get an answer to it, find "the answers". You HAVE to get
                          back to the core(that rocky road)and work with that. Letting all of
                          these other things go. I'd go back to therapy and talk about your
                          childhood problems (only) (if that's what everything is wound around).
                          "What the hell is there out there to work with?" (as
                          you say). There isn't anything. That's mistake one. It just widens and
                          exascerbates the problem with your core, which is where the problem is
                          and what the problem is with. You've GOT to find it again, resolve the
                          rocky road of integrity for this small thing within you and DON'T let
                          anything into it again. That's how this, all this thing, starts.
                          There's the core (yours) and "everything else". And when you try to
                          throw your arms around "everything else" and bring it into the core to
                          resolve it, understand it (whatever)that's when everything goes wrong.
                          Widening and expanding it just makes it worse. You may have delusional
                          success at learning "higher stuff" for a while but the consequences of
                          bringing all the outside into your center eventually catches up.
                          Don't get me wrong, I like everyone in this group a lot
                          but the only thing anyone can do with groups like this, usenet groups,
                          bulletin boards, or find on them is an opinion, what serves as truth
                          for the person posting. The answer's not "out there". There is no
                          answer like that. What you've got to do is get back in touch with the
                          tiny core of reality within yourself which is probably going to mean
                          you've got to let go of all this other stuff, everything else.
                          I'm going through some heavy stuff myself, now so I've
                          stayed out of this, as I sure have enough on my own plate. But what
                          you've said in this post I'm responding to is pretty specific in a
                          couple of sentences. So, I don't know if it helps, but do what you can,
                          and leave all this other poo alone. It just increases your own
                          traumatic stress. Don't you think?
                        • ctecvie
                          Hello Ralph, great that it s you!! :-) When I first saw the e-mail address, I thought of you, because you had posted as Igrif on the BBs as well.But then I
                          Message 12 of 15 , Jul 6, 2005
                            Hello Ralph,

                            great that it's you!! :-) When I first saw the e-mail address, I
                            thought of you, because you had posted as "Igrif" on the BBs as
                            well.But then I dismissed this thought. I know of course that "R"
                            and "Ralph Griffith" are one and the same. :-)

                            So, I'm happy to have you here!
                            Ingrid

                            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "l2eigh"
                            <lgrif@m...> wrote:
                            >
                            > > So I guess my question for you guys is: What the hell IS out
                            there, in
                            > > your opinion, that you can trust and work with, > I am at a
                            loss, and
                            > I feel very frustrated and tired at this point. I
                            > > really don't know where to turn anymore. I hope that someone out
                            there
                            > > can say something that will help guide me in the right direction.
                            >
                            >
                            > Hi Truthdecider:
                            > When I started posting on HCS/TS last year it was
                            as R.
                            > After a couple of months I quit because there was nothing else to
                            say.
                            > Then in January, Garland Peck posted something about Neanderthal
                            Man
                            > and why Lemuria/Atlantis was bogus so I got interested again and
                            posted
                            > this time in my first and last name Ralph Griffith, so...
                            we "know" one
                            > another.
                            > I'm just responding to a couple of sentences from
                            your
                            > post. Because (like the problem you outline) you can't bring it
                            all
                            > inside and get an answer to it, find "the answers". You HAVE to
                            get
                            > back to the core(that rocky road)and work with that. Letting all
                            of
                            > these other things go. I'd go back to therapy and talk about your
                            > childhood problems (only) (if that's what everything is wound
                            around).
                            > "What the hell is there out there to work with?"
                            (as
                            > you say). There isn't anything. That's mistake one. It just widens
                            and
                            > exascerbates the problem with your core, which is where the
                            problem is
                            > and what the problem is with. You've GOT to find it again, resolve
                            the
                            > rocky road of integrity for this small thing within you and DON'T
                            let
                            > anything into it again. That's how this, all this thing, starts.
                            > There's the core (yours) and "everything else". And when you try
                            to
                            > throw your arms around "everything else" and bring it into the
                            core to
                            > resolve it, understand it (whatever)that's when everything goes
                            wrong.
                            > Widening and expanding it just makes it worse. You may have
                            delusional
                            > success at learning "higher stuff" for a while but the
                            consequences of
                            > bringing all the outside into your center eventually catches up.
                            > Don't get me wrong, I like everyone in this group
                            a lot
                            > but the only thing anyone can do with groups like this, usenet
                            groups,
                            > bulletin boards, or find on them is an opinion, what serves as
                            truth
                            > for the person posting. The answer's not "out there". There is no
                            > answer like that. What you've got to do is get back in touch with
                            the
                            > tiny core of reality within yourself which is probably going to
                            mean
                            > you've got to let go of all this other stuff, everything else.
                            > I'm going through some heavy stuff myself, now so
                            I've
                            > stayed out of this, as I sure have enough on my own plate. But
                            what
                            > you've said in this post I'm responding to is pretty specific in a
                            > couple of sentences. So, I don't know if it helps, but do what you
                            can,
                            > and leave all this other poo alone. It just increases your own
                            > traumatic stress. Don't you think?
                          • mishmisha9
                            Nice post! And like Ingrid said, good you are here! ... there, in ... loss, and ... there ... as R. ... say. ... Man ... posted ... we know one ... your ...
                            Message 13 of 15 , Jul 6, 2005
                              Nice post! And like Ingrid said, good you are here!


                              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "l2eigh"
                              <lgrif@m...> wrote:
                              >
                              > > So I guess my question for you guys is: What the hell IS out
                              there, in
                              > > your opinion, that you can trust and work with, > I am at a
                              loss, and
                              > I feel very frustrated and tired at this point. I
                              > > really don't know where to turn anymore. I hope that someone out
                              there
                              > > can say something that will help guide me in the right direction.
                              >
                              >
                              > Hi Truthdecider:
                              > When I started posting on HCS/TS last year it was
                              as R.
                              > After a couple of months I quit because there was nothing else to
                              say.
                              > Then in January, Garland Peck posted something about Neanderthal
                              Man
                              > and why Lemuria/Atlantis was bogus so I got interested again and
                              posted
                              > this time in my first and last name Ralph Griffith, so...
                              we "know" one
                              > another.
                              > I'm just responding to a couple of sentences from
                              your
                              > post. Because (like the problem you outline) you can't bring it
                              all
                              > inside and get an answer to it, find "the answers". You HAVE to
                              get
                              > back to the core(that rocky road)and work with that. Letting all
                              of
                              > these other things go. I'd go back to therapy and talk about your
                              > childhood problems (only) (if that's what everything is wound
                              around).
                              > "What the hell is there out there to work with?"
                              (as
                              > you say). There isn't anything. That's mistake one. It just widens
                              and
                              > exascerbates the problem with your core, which is where the
                              problem is
                              > and what the problem is with. You've GOT to find it again, resolve
                              the
                              > rocky road of integrity for this small thing within you and DON'T
                              let
                              > anything into it again. That's how this, all this thing, starts.
                              > There's the core (yours) and "everything else". And when you try
                              to
                              > throw your arms around "everything else" and bring it into the
                              core to
                              > resolve it, understand it (whatever)that's when everything goes
                              wrong.
                              > Widening and expanding it just makes it worse. You may have
                              delusional
                              > success at learning "higher stuff" for a while but the
                              consequences of
                              > bringing all the outside into your center eventually catches up.
                              > Don't get me wrong, I like everyone in this group
                              a lot
                              > but the only thing anyone can do with groups like this, usenet
                              groups,
                              > bulletin boards, or find on them is an opinion, what serves as
                              truth
                              > for the person posting. The answer's not "out there". There is no
                              > answer like that. What you've got to do is get back in touch with
                              the
                              > tiny core of reality within yourself which is probably going to
                              mean
                              > you've got to let go of all this other stuff, everything else.
                              > I'm going through some heavy stuff myself, now so
                              I've
                              > stayed out of this, as I sure have enough on my own plate. But
                              what
                              > you've said in this post I'm responding to is pretty specific in a
                              > couple of sentences. So, I don't know if it helps, but do what you
                              can,
                              > and leave all this other poo alone. It just increases your own
                              > traumatic stress. Don't you think?
                            • ctecvie
                              Hello Truthdecider, I think you have received excellent help from both the members here and on ET. Mish makes some very good points - I would have said many of
                              Message 14 of 15 , Jul 6, 2005
                                Hello Truthdecider,

                                I think you have received excellent help from both the members here
                                and on ET. Mish makes some very good points - I would have said many
                                of it, too! :-) So that leaves me just some short remarks.

                                To self-hate: A technique that helped me a lot was when I wrote a
                                letter to myself, imagining how it would have been perfect for me.
                                This was a very powerful tool and helped change my past a bit. Of
                                course I wasn't an abused child or anything like that, just had
                                the "normal difficult" childhood.

                                I can confirm that Bach remedies help a lot to overcome
                                psychological issues. I took them, too and they helped me greatly. I
                                am planning to have a horoscope done, just to know where I am at the
                                moment because it's an image of my personal progress.

                                Basically, you can choose any therapy or remedy you want, the most
                                important thing is to be in tune with the therapy or remedy you
                                choose. No matter if you choose Bach flowers, homeopathy, books that
                                deal with special questions and issues you have, kinesiology, NLP,
                                etc. etc. - just tune in and enjoy what you are doing. And when you
                                feel that you have got what you needed, then just move on, and no
                                regrets.

                                Concerning your spiritual search, please go on - it's so important
                                to continue. I don't see the paths you tried as failures - you
                                learned from each of them. If you are interested in people like
                                Icke - that's ok because he will teach you what you need. I think
                                it's much more important to move on when it's done. So please,
                                please, don't be angry with yourself because everything is in
                                perfect order. I can see that you are absolutely open to life and to
                                other perspectives, and that's wonderful.

                                Happy moving on ...
                                Ingrid
                              • prometheus_973
                                Hi Truthdecider, It seems like the responses and advice to this post of yours were very good. There are many resources that can be looked at to discover what
                                Message 15 of 15 , Jul 6, 2005
                                  Hi Truthdecider,

                                  It seems like the responses and advice to this post of yours were
                                  very good. There are many resources that can be looked at to
                                  discover what one needs in order to find one's own inner truth. Life
                                  is difficult at various times for everyone, and sensitive people and
                                  spiritual seekers have it much more difficult than those controlled
                                  by their egos. But one should never give up, and never surrender!
                                  And yet one must give up and surrender the things that prevent us
                                  from growing and knowing who we truly are and why we are truly here.
                                  One must also discover these truths on their own (mostly) and not
                                  through another's truth. We can help each other, but only up to a
                                  certain point. The responsibility to live, share and discover life's
                                  mysteries and meaning lies without and within each Soul. In some
                                  respects as long as one does no harm (at all) to others or to
                                  oneself then that makes any experience into a spiritual lesson. You
                                  must relax and enjoy the journey and not be in such a rush. There is
                                  no race to God-Realization because God-Realization is in the clarity
                                  of the moment. If one rushes around desparately looking here and
                                  there then one can miss seeing the subtlies and changes that help us
                                  see through the illusions. Yes it is all illusion, but there is also
                                  the reality of Truth surrounding the illusion. The fact that you are
                                  honest with yourself and have doubts and questions shows that your
                                  ego is not so strong as to blind you from higher Truth. I think that
                                  you are closer to answering your own questions than you think.

                                  Prometheus


                                  Truthdecider said:
                                  >>So I guess my question for you guys is: What the hell IS out
                                  there, in your opinion, that you can trust and work with, > I am at
                                  a loss, and I feel very frustrated and tired at this point. I really
                                  don't know where to turn anymore. I hope that someone out there can
                                  say something that will help guide me in the right direction.
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