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Re: 12/2006 H.I. Letter-Klemp talks of HU-Chat Cheryl & KAL-ECK Leaders

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  • prometheus_973
    Hi All, It seems that Klemp is just giving more lip service to what s wrong with the org. How can H.I.s believe anything HK says when in the 12/2005 H.I.
    Message 1 of 19 , Dec 6, 2006
      Hi All,
      It seems that Klemp is just giving more lip service to what's wrong with
      the org. How can H.I.s believe anything HK says when in the 12/2005 H.I.
      Letter (one year ago) he talked of Not Using IFs, ANDs, and BUTs when
      talking to one another, but it was okay to use these words with the public.
      It seems Kant had this IF, AND, BUT opinion of the intent behind the word
      usage and HK thought Kant had made a good point and, therefore,
      instructed his H.I.s to communicate better by saying what they mean rather
      than negating or putting limits on what they have said with a BUT, or not
      being direct by using IF. Now just read anything that Klemp has written in
      the past year (including this 12/2006 H.I. Letter) and count the IFs and
      especially the BUTs! BTW-AND is okay because it's a connector - LOL!
      Therefore, is it any wonder that H.I.s are confused. And, when Klemp calls
      some Eckists 'losers' or making those negative, unloving, and mistaken
      comments about that Third Temporary Postal Clerk back in 2003 is laying
      a foundation of negativity, unfriendliness, and exclusion toward others.





      HK: "Dear Brothers of the Leaf,

      There is a fox outside the henhouse, and it bears watching.

      You are a guardian of the henhouse, helping your RESA in making sure the ECK
      chelas in your area receive fair treatment from those who are above them in
      some service to ECK.

      These lovers of truth and the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master deserve fair
      treatment. Most ECK leaders show them that courtesy. However, a few do not.

      Much of the ECK work is borne by chelas who do so out of pure love. There is
      no remuneration involved. Their spiritual blessings are great, far greater
      than receiving a pot of gold filled to the brim. So they represent love.

      The fox stands for power. He is ruthless and sees a house full of chicken
      dinners. He feeds on the weak and helpless, on those who cannot defend
      themselves.

      Now, what kind of guardian would it be who stood by and let the fox, a power
      seeker, satisfy his pleasure?

      Someone who knows what is going on, is in a position to do something about
      it, BUT purposely shuts his eyes to the problem--out of fear, perhaps, of
      offending the perpetrator--is an accomplice of the fox. How could he not be?

      I was thinking about the constant struggle that exists between love and power,
      even among ECKists. You look at such people with their goose-stepping tactics
      and you wonder about them. Sometimes they almost seem to be schizophrenic,
      with opposing or antagonistic sides.

      On one hand, they are ever so loving and helpful. BUT on the other, they are
      tromping on the rights of others with big, muddy boots. Yet they can't see
      themselves.

      Don't we all find it easier to spot a blemish in another instead of ourselves?
      Behind the big boots is the ego. It is out of control and can thus do a great
      deal of harm. These goose-stepping people love power, not love. It is
      disheartening to see them. They intrude into the domain of others. Deep
      within a file cabinet they come across a vague rule that, if taken out of
      context, says the others are not in compliance with it.

      This steps on people lower in the pecking order, who must keep silent.

      Long ago, as a Vahana in the field, I happened into a neighboring Mahdis's
      area to give an introductory lecture. This was in the old days, when the rules
      were not always drafted very well. That Mahdis complained to the ECK Office.
      So I found that the better part of valor was discretion, and thus wisely kept
      out of the a
      rea. What struct me was that the area wasn't growing! This Mahdis
      used up so much energy protecting her turf that she had neither the time nor
      energy to do an adequate job of ECK Vahana work in her very populous area.
      It was sad.

      She would not do it and acted like a bucket of cold water when others did
      show initiative. One such person can do so much damage to an organization,
      especially to one like ECKANKAR, because it places a lot of faith in
      volunteers and their love for the Master.

      These foxes--power eaters--are extremely stubborn in their determination
      to dominate others. IF they could only see themselves. Their motto:
      'My way or the highway.'

      Other approaches they favor include becoming overly familiar with an intended
      victim. Then they take control of the other's life. The goose-stepper, the fox,
      is thus guilty of violating the ECK precept of allowing others to have their
      freedom.

      Such a person thinks that his ego is under control as much as that of another.

      He licks the boots of those above him in the hierarchy and expects those below
      him to lick his. He is truly schizophrenic. He and his like are few in number,
      BUT they do so much damage to the ECK missionary effort. They are like an
      atomic bomb exploding over a city.

      You may get reports of a fox operating in a Satsang class, as someone in
      charge of ECK intro talks, or in other important ECK activities. Keep your
      eyes and ears open. Find out IF anything is behind the rumors, and inform
      the local ECK leadership or the RESA.

      Keep in mind that ECK chelas are precious Souls. They deserve love and
      respect. They're serving ECK out of love, not for a pot of gold. Sweep the way
      clear of a fox. Allow the ECK chelas to serve. Let them unfold, so that their
      spiritual reward can be greater than any pot of gold.

      Harold"
    • prometheus_973
      Klemp is asking H.I.s to squeal on each other and follow the rumors to ferret out the Kal-Eck foxes raiding the lower initiate henhouse. Newer commentary is
      Message 2 of 19 , Dec 6, 2006
        Klemp is asking H.I.s to squeal on each other and follow the rumors to
        ferret out the Kal-Eck foxes raiding the lower initiate henhouse. Newer
        commentary is below.###

        ************************************************************************
        It seems that Klemp is just giving more lip service to what's wrong with
        the org. How can H.I.s believe anything HK says when in the 12/2005 H.I.
        Letter (one year ago) he talked of Not Using IFs, ANDs, and BUTs when
        talking to one another, but it was okay to use these words with the public.
        It seems Kant had this IF, AND, BUT opinion of the intent behind the word
        usage and HK thought Kant had made a good point and, therefore,
        instructed his H.I.s to communicate better by saying what they mean rather
        than negating or putting limits on what they have said with a BUT, or not
        being direct by using IF. Now just read anything that Klemp has written in
        the past year (including this 12/2006 H.I. Letter) and count the IFs and
        especially the BUTs! BTW-AND is okay because it's a connector - LOL!
        Therefore, is it any wonder that H.I.s are confused. And, when Klemp calls
        some Eckists 'losers' or making those negative, unloving, and mistaken
        comments about that Third Temporary Postal Clerk back in 2003 is laying
        a foundation of negativity, unfriendliness, and exclusion toward others.
        ***************************************************************************

        HK: "Dear Brothers of the Leaf,

        There is a fox outside the henhouse, and it bears watching.

        You are a guardian of the henhouse, helping your RESA in making sure the ECK
        chelas in your area receive fair treatment from those who are above them in
        some service to ECK."

        ### The RESAs are part of the problem. They turn a blind eye to the Kal
        like behaviors of those in their hierarchy. Many RESAs are simply inexperienced
        administrators without a clue as to who should be trusted and who shouldn't.

        HK: "These lovers of truth and the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master deserve fair
        treatment. Most ECK leaders show them that courtesy. However, a few do not.

        Much of the ECK work is borne by chelas who do so out of pure love. There is
        no remuneration involved. Their spiritual blessings are great, far greater
        than receiving a pot of gold filled to the brim. So they represent love."

        ### The pride of the Higher initiations and the power of having a high 'settler'
        position and having one's Eckie story mentioned or put into print is also
        part of the "remuneration" for many Eckists.

        HK: "The fox stands for power. He is ruthless and sees a house full of chicken
        dinners. He feeds on the weak and helpless, on those who cannot defend
        themselves.

        Now, what kind of guardian would it be who stood by and let the fox, a power
        seeker, satisfy his pleasure?

        Someone who knows what is going on, is in a position to do something about
        it, BUT purposely shuts his eyes to the problem--out of fear, perhaps, of
        offending the perpetrator--is an accomplice of the fox. How could he not be?"

        ### The power seeker is a common occurance in Eckankar/religion. Can't the
        owner of HU-Chat take Cher's moderator position away from her and boot her?
        Or, is she afraid to do so. How about Cher's RESA? Why hasn't something been
        done? The LEM/Mahanta wants to know why not!

        HK: "I was thinking about the constant struggle that exists between love and
        power, even among ECKists. You look at such people with their goose-
        stepping tactics and you wonder about them. Sometimes they almost seem to
        be schizophrenic, with opposing or antagonistic sides.

        On one hand, they are ever so loving and helpful. BUT on the other, they are
        tromping on the rights of others with big, muddy boots. Yet they can't see
        themselves."

        ### Actually, this is not all that uncommon within the ranks of the Kal-Eck
        Higher Initiates. There are many that are well established within 6th and 7th
        circles of initiation. And, we can also include 8ths, 9ths, and a 14th!

        HK: "Don't we all find it easier to spot a blemish in another instead of
        ourselves? Behind the big boots is the ego. It is out of control and can thus
        do a great deal of harm. These goose-stepping people love power, not love.
        It is disheartening to see them. They intrude into the domain of others. Deep
        within a file cabinet they come across a vague rule that, if taken out of
        context, says the others are not in compliance with it."

        ### I remember that Third 'fill-in' Postal Clerk whose blemishes HK pointed
        out. Klemp got his big muddy boots out to tromp on him didn't he! See, this
        is why Eckankar doesn't work! It's flawed from the top down and always has
        been!

        HK: "This steps on people lower in the pecking order, who must keep silent."

        ### Yes, people must keep silent if they want that next initiation or that
        coveted position in the RESA hierarchy... maybe it's a RESA position! See,
        Klemp knows how the "pecking order" game is played... he once did it too!

        HK: "Long ago, as a Vahana in the field, I happened into a neighboring
        Mahdis's area to give an introductory lecture. This was in the old days, when
        the rules were not always drafted very well. That Mahdis complained to the
        ECK Office. So I found that the better part of valor was discretion, and thus
        wisely kept out of the area. What struct me was that the area wasn't growing!
        This Mahdisused up so much energy protecting her turf that she had neither
        the time nor energy to do an adequate job of ECK Vahana work in her very
        populous area. It was sad."

        ### Maybe the Mahdis saw Klemp as a "fox."

        HK: "She would not do it and acted like a bucket of cold water when others
        did show initiative. One such person can do so much damage to an
        organization, especially to one like ECKANKAR, because it places a lot of faith
        in volunteers and their love for the Master.

        These foxes--power eaters--are extremely stubborn in their determination
        to dominate others. IF they could only see themselves. Their motto:
        'My way or the highway.'

        ### Isn't that how Klemp dealt with Ford and Graham. It was HK's way or the
        highway! This is very two-faced of Harold. HK is stubborn too!

        HK: "Other approaches they favor include becoming overly familiar with an
        intended victim. Then they take control of the other's life. The goose-stepper,
        the fox, is thus guilty of violating the ECK precept of allowing others to have
        their freedom.

        Such a person thinks that his ego is under control as much as that of another."

        ### This is true of HK as well. Just look at how Eckists are promoted. One has
        to be in a clique, fly under the radar, and keep silent. Also, there's keeping the
        paid membership on-going and taking the trainings and doing the volunteer
        thing to stay in the Eck spotlight.

        HK: "He licks the boots of those above him in the hierarchy and expects those
        below him to lick his. He is truly schizophrenic. He and his like are few in
        number, BUT they do so much damage to the ECK missionary effort. They are
        like an atomic bomb exploding over a city."

        ### Boot licking and ass kissing too! HK did plenty in his day and yet never
        saw fit to change things in all these years as LEM. So why doesn't Klemp
        have more oversight? There should be someone at the ESC that Eck Leaders
        can call and remain anonymous or immune from repercussions. In many cases
        the RESA is a big part of the problem, especially, if you're complaining about
        their friend! Another thing, most Eckists will remain silent about the negativity
        they see because they are obeying the Law of Silence and are refraining from
        spreading negativity... besides it's all Karmic and the Inner Master knows
        everything... right! Catch-22 Klempster!

        HK: "You may get reports of a fox operating in a Satsang class, as someone in
        charge of ECK intro talks, or in other important ECK activities. Keep your
        eyes and ears open. Find out IF anything is behind the rumors, and inform
        the local ECK leadership or the RESA.

        Keep in mind that ECK chelas are precious Souls. They deserve love and
        respect. They're serving ECK out of love, not for a pot of gold. Sweep the way
        clear of a fox. Allow the ECK chelas to serve. Let them unfold, so that their
        spiritual reward can be greater than any pot of gold. Harold"

        ### The only "spiritual reward" that Eck Leaders have are their GOLD LEAVES
        and a bucket full of promises. H.I.s should look around and see all of the
        unqualified leaders that share their initiation circle or a higher circle. Why?
        Because Higher Initiation is not related to Higher Consciousness. The by-
        product of higher consciousness is not an initiation number and this is why
        many Eckists discount the importance of the upper high initiations! Besides,
        there's that 7th initiation ceiling for 99.999% of Eckists. The RESA position is
        just another badge to wear and does not bring with it higher consciousness
        either! It's all just more and more illusion and religious dogma!

        Prometheus
      • prometheus_973
        Klemp has given approval to share this H.I. article with all Eck Leaders! : ) I had just a few more comments (###) on Klemp s instructions to H.I. Eck Leaders.
        Message 3 of 19 , Dec 10, 2006
          Klemp has given approval to share this H.I. article with all Eck Leaders! : )

          I had just a few more comments (###) on Klemp's instructions to H.I. Eck Leaders.
          Will there be more instructions in the Mystic World to have the Lower Initiates to
          keep an eye out for the Kal-Eck H.I. Foxes like Cheryl?


          [HK]: "Dear Brothers of the Leaf, There is a fox outside the henhouse, and it
          bears watching."

          [Me]: So, are Eckists now chickens rather than eagles? : )


          ### Interesting, since chickens do flock together and peck around and each
          other. Eagles do not travel in flocks... there is no pecking order with eagles.
          Also, aren't eagles predators... like foxes!


          [HK]: "You are a guardian of the henhouse, helping your RESA in making sure
          the ECK chelas in your area receive fair treatment from those who are above
          them in some service to ECK."

          [Me]: Yes, Klemp is definitely talking of Cheryl along with many other nasty,
          negative, power tripping, neo-Nazi, schizophrenic egomanics that are in positions
          of authority (H.I.s) within the Eckankar hierarchy! Klemp will now say the same! LOL!

          ### The LEM/Mahanta should have a clue, as well as, his RESAs if there is
          anything to this Eck INNER communication with the chelas. How can Kal-Eck
          foxes get Higher Initiations!



          [HK]: "These lovers of truth and the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master deserve fair
          treatment. Most ECK leaders show them that courtesy. However, a few do not."

          [Me]: Actually, if Eckists were real Truth Seekers they would do a slow read and
          contemplation of Confessions of a God Seeker. Also, there are more than just a
          "few" ECK leaders that DO NOT show other H.I.s, and especially lower initiates,
          respect or courtesy. Many are ego driven dictators of various sorts.

          ### Yes, and Cheryl is still on various Eckankar Internet sites! How can this Kal-Eck
          Fox not be censored, booted from all Eck sites, and not be demoted to a 1st!



          [HK]: "Much of the ECK work is borne by chelas who do so out of pure love. There
          is no remuneration involved. Their spiritual blessings are great, far greater than
          receiving a pot of gold filled to the brim. So they represent love."

          [Me]: Well, the "remuneration" for many ECKists is with rewards of power and ego
          via initiation rank or settler position. That's why there are so many problems, and
          the RESAs aren't doing their jobs! Some RESAs just delegate everything to others
          and these ECK leaders are part of the problem that HK is speaking of. Many RESAs
          are not all that advanced spiritually. BTW - Whose the RESA over the Internet? There
          isn't one!

          ### It's easy to say that someone (Eckists) represents love, but it's another
          thing to demonstrate it in words and actions.



          [HK]: "The fox stands for power. He is ruthless and sees a house full of chicken
          dinners. He feeds on the weak and helpless, on those who cannot defend themselves."

          [Me]: Yep, the "fox" is Cheryl and her Kal-Eck cohorts who are more like wolves
          in sheep's clothing.

          ### Twitchell, Gross, and Klemp were/are foxes too! Then again, religion in general
          feeds on the weak and helpless!



          [HK]: "Now, what kind of guardian would it be who stood by and let the fox, a power
          seeker, satisy his pleasure?"

          [Me]: Actually the "he" can also be a she! But yes, Cheryl (as well as some L.D.'s, etc.)
          certainly get pleasure from their little power trips of deleting and moderating HU-Chat
          member's posts while adding her <smiling> sly two-faced comments to belittle and
          negate.

          ### What kind of "Guardian" is Klemp to stand by and let this happen since 1981!
          These Kal-Eck foxes didn't just happen overnight! The chicken house has been
          raided for years and years without protection and the fox population has grown!



          [HK]: "Someone who knows what is going on, is in a position to do something about it,
          BUT purposely shuts his eyes to the problem--out of fear, perhaps, of offending the
          perpetrator--is an accomplice of the fox. How could he not be?"

          [Me]: This seems to indicate that Cheryl's RESA and the HU-Chat owner are just as
          guilty as the rabid fox Cheryl! However, it is (somewhat) a grey area since the Internet
          is international. This is why Klemp should take personal responsibility for Cheryl G. and
          her group of Kal-Eckists as well. Or, is HK saying that the RESAs should, also, monitor
          their chelas' behaviour on the Internet as well? It seems so! However, Klemp should have
          someone at the ESC to monitor all (official/unofficial) ECK sites and step in when
          necessary. 'Too little too late' should be Klemp's (Mr.Talks-a-lot) motto.

          ### Once again, why doesn't Klemp know what is going on? Why are Eckists closing
          their eyes and ears to truth? Maybe Eckists do fear hurting another's feelings but
          Klemp trained them to do this! HK can't have it both ways and is learning this truth
          the hard way.



          [HK]: "I was thinking about the constant struggle that exists between love and power,
          even among ECKists. You look at such people with their goose-stepping tactics and
          you wonder about them. Sometimes they almost seem to be schizophrenic, with
          opposing or antagonistic sides."

          [Me]: Yes! Klemp was looking in a mirror recently! This also sounds like he is describing
          Cheryl, but there are so many other Kal-Eckists like her!

          ### Klemp is a schizophrenic himself and uses goose-stepping tactics too! Look at
          how he dealt with Graham and Ford. Eckankar is an 'AS ABOVE SO BELOW religion,
          therefore, Klemp needs to take some responsibility for the bad chelas as well as the
          good ones. Or else, don't hand out High Initiations so easily and keep H.I.s that
          demonstrate Kal like behaviours. Walk the walk!



          [HK]: "On one hand, they are, they are ever so loving and helpful. BUT on the other,
          they are tromping on the rights of others with big, muddy boots. Yet they can't see
          themselves. Don't we all find it easier to spot a blemish in another instead of ourselves?
          Behind the boots is the ego. It is out of control and can thus do a great deal of harm.
          These goose-stepping people love power, not love. It is disheartening to see them.
          They intrude on the domain of others. Deep within a file cabinet they come across a
          vague rule that, if taken out of context, says the others are not in compliance with it."

          [Me]: So true Harry! Cheryl's big muddy boots are a walkin' while you're a talkin.'

          ### Klemp describes himself and his Kal-Eck cohorts perfectly. The problem with
          Cheryl is that she's not subtle and Klemp wants subtle Kal agents working for him.
          The lie is more believable with those who can at least act loving. The Kal-Eckists
          need to learn to take their loving faces off AFTER they get behind closed doors and
          off line! Then they need to put the loving face on again when dealing with the public.



          [HK]: "This steps on people lower in the pecking order, who must keep silent."

          [Me]: I like the analogy of the henhouse (chela/chickens) and pecking order (hierarchy).

          ### Eckists are trained to keep silent and now Klemp is complaining because they
          were trained too well?! Does Klemp want Lower Pecking Order Chelas to know all of
          this about his H.I. Foxes and that he sees them as Chickens?



          [HK]: "Long ago, as a Vahana in the field, I happened into a neighboring Mahdis's area
          to give an introductory lecture. This was in the old days, when the rules were not always
          drafted very well. That Mahdis complained to the ECK Office. So I found that the better
          part of valor was discretion, and thus wisely kept out of the area. What struct me was
          that the area wasn't growing! This Mahdis used up so much energy protecting her turf
          that she had neither the time or energy to do an adequate job of ECK Vahana work in
          her very populous area. It was sad."

          [Me]: Chicago is a populous area! Yes, so sad--I pitty the fools!

          ### At least this Mahdis was trying to protect her turf! How does Klemp protect his
          turf! Not too well from the Kal-Eck H.I. Foxes. HK's better at tearing into a lower
          initiate like Graham, or a non-Eck postal clerk, etc., etc. He's both judge and jury!



          [HK]: "She would not do it and acted like a bucket of cold water when others did show
          initiative. One such person can do so much damage to an organization, especially to
          one like ECKANKAR, because it places a lot of faith in volunteers and their love for the
          Master."

          [Me]: Come on Harold just issue an edict to your RESAs and to ESC Staffers to bring such
          behaviour to an end. Take some responsibility yourself! You're the one that gave these
          Kal-"ECK leaders" their Higher Initiations! What good is a 5th when Cheryl has one too!

          ### Klemp's blah blah blah is so boring. It's like he just woke up! Maybe Joan has
          updated him on what's going on in reality while he's been hiding out in a dark
          cave for all these years while writing his dribble. I wonder when the Nine Silent Ones
          will channel the Shariyats 3 & 4 to Klump? : )



          [HK]: "These foxes--power eaters--are extremely stubborn in their determination to
          dominate others. IF they could only see themselves. Their motto:
          'My way or the highway."

          [Me]: Cheryl has kicked people off of HU-Chat for saying the wrong thing. Many of
          these Kal-ECKists are just emulating Klemp and his nutty unloving words and
          behaviours. Their motto: As Above So Below - Loser!

          ### I wonder what it would take for Klemp to "see" himself! He is awfully stubborn
          and thick headed. I'll bet HK loves to dominate others including Joan. These Kal-Eck
          H.I. foxes must really be bugging Harry since they're doing the dominating now!



          [HK]: "Other approaches they favor include becoming overly familiar with an intended
          victim. Then they take control of the other's life. The goose-stepper, the fox, is thus
          guilty of violating the ECK precept of allowing others to have their freedom."

          [Me]: How is there real spiritual freedom within the Eckankar hierarchy with all of the
          rules and Guidelines and ass kissing going on, as well as, the dependency on the LEM/
          Mahanta! It's no wonder there are so many unbalanced and needy ECKists! Look at
          Klemp's example!

          ### Doesn't Klemp deny others freedom too! One cannot ever leave Eckankar
          according to Eck dogma. So Eckankar is also two-faced! But, Eckankar is a Kal
          based religion regardless of what is said. This is why HK knows nothing of what
          is really going on. Klemp just takes credit for everything anyone has ever dreamed.



          [HK]: "Such a person thinks that his ego is under control as much as that of another."

          [Me]: Well, you should know little Harry, but you give yourself away!

          [HK]: "He licks the boots of those above him in the hierarchy and expects those below
          him to lick his. He is truly schizophrenic. He and his like are few in number, BUT they
          do so much damage to the ECK missionary effort. They are like an atomic bomb
          exploding over a city."

          [Me]: So, Cheryl is a boot licker too! Once again Klemp claims that these Kal-Eckists
          are "few in number." I know better! And the bad thing is that they are in positions of
          power and authority within Eckankar. This is proof that Klemp is powerless and unaware
          or else he wouldn't need to put this into print. He would resolve the problem on his own!

          ### I'm rather surprised that Klemp is openingly sounding so nasty! HK's usually more
          subtle. And, He keeps repeating the goose-stepping (neo-Nazi), boot licking,
          schizophenric, out of control ego thing!
          Also, I doubt that Cheryl will ever get it or be reprimanded either! Most Eckists are very
          passive. Really though, Cheryl needs to be demoted to a First Initiate as an example to
          others, but Harry hasn't the guts to take on the big muddy boots of Cheryl!



          [HK]: "You may get reports of a fox operating in a Satsang class, as someone in charge
          of ECK into talks, or in other important ECK activities. Keep your eyes and ears open.
          Find out IF anything is behind the rumors, and inform the local ECK leadership or the
          RESA."

          [Me]: What happens if a RESA gets a report of a FOX being a moderator of HU-Chat?
          Nothing? And, what if the local ECK leadership or the RESA is part of the problem?
          Anyway, I find it funny that HK wants chelas to squeal on each other and to listen to
          "rumors." However, cleaning up the mess was why HK finally wrote those two leadership
          books. The real problem lies in the phoney initiations. One should have a higher
          consciousness before and after getting one and that's not the case! Catch-22 back at
          you! Hey, what ever happened to the RESA police?

          ### This advice to check out the rumors and squeal on others will be good news for
          the H.I. gossips like Stever. So, are these Eck Internet Sites Vahana Groups or Satsangs
          or both? Aren't all Eckists official vehicles for their LEM/Mahanta? Therefore, the Eckists
          that gather on those Eckankar sites are doing so as official Arahatas and Vahanas.



          [HK]: "Keep in mind that ECK chelas are precious Souls. They deserve love and respect.
          They're serving ECK out of love, not for a pot of gold. Sweep the way clear of a fox.
          Allow the ECK chelas to serve. Let them unfold, so that their spiritual reward can be
          greater than any pot of gold."

          [Me]: Isn't everyone a precious Soul? Harry, you're der fearless leader! Walk the walk!
          Have some follow-thru and some balls! I guess we'll just have to wait and see if anything
          will ever get done to protect those ECK chickens from the fox like Kal-ECK leaders/losers.
          Really HK, aren't you the LEM in charge at the ESC and over the RESAs! I hope you put
          something in the RESA Star about these Cheryl types! Will there be something else in
          the Mystic World? Hmmmmmm. Well, this seems to be something that is important,
          or else it never would have been mentioned! There are just no IFs, Ands, and BUTs about
          the importance of this is there! : )

          ### I wonder how long it will take to "Sweep the way clear of a fox!" Which RESA will be
          fearless and brave enough to take the first step? The way Eckankar works it will take ESC
          action before anything is done. Therefore, Cheryl and these Kal-Eck types will have a long
          reprieve until anything significant happens. Maybe there will be a five year de-foxing plan
          set into motion. Perhaps, the henhouse could be set up with outside motion detectors
          and cameras? Maybe the henhouse doors need to be fitted with dead bolt locks? Still,
          if invaded, who will come to the rescue of these poor chela/chickens?

          Prometheus
        • mishmisha9
          Hi, All! ] I thought it would be interesting to compare an excerpt from Harold s recent H.I. Newsletter to a post by Cheryl on Hu-Chat which examplifies the
          Message 4 of 19 , Dec 11, 2006
            Hi, All!
            ]
            I thought it would be interesting to compare an
            excerpt from Harold's recent H.I. Newsletter to a
            post by Cheryl on Hu-Chat which examplifies the
            "fox" behavior HK is complaining about within his
            eck leader (H.I.s) camp!


            Harold wrote:
            "I was thinking about the constant struggle that
            exists have between love and power, even among
            ECKists. You look at such people with their
            goose-stepping tactics and you wonder about them.
            Sometimes they almost seem to be schizophrenic,
            with opposing or antagonistic sides.

            On one hand, they are ever so loving and helpful.
            BUT on the other, they are tromping on the rights
            of others with big, muddy boots. Yet they can't see
            themselves.

            Don't we all find it easier to spot a blemish in another
            instead of ourselves? Behind the big boots is the ego.
            It is out of control and can thus do a great deal of harm.
            These goose- stepping people love power, not love.
            It is disheartening to see them. They intrude into the
            domain of others. Deep within a file cabinet they come
            across a vague rule that, if taken out of context, says
            the others are not in compliance with it.

            This steps on people lower in the pecking order, who
            must keep silent." (unquote)

            This is Cheryl's "goose-stepping" response to a newbie
            member's post on Hu-Chat:

            "I'm sorry to hear that you're this intolerant and limited
            in your vision of other souls, Jeri. A personal attack from
            you publically is certainly one way that I can learn about
            what you call 'love' in your life. I'll file that under "need
            to know" for future reference!" (unquote)

            Please note Harold's reference to "a file cabinet" and
            Cheryl's threatening words, "I'll file that under 'need to
            know' for future reference!" Rather obvious the
            goose-stepping fox who cannot see herself as a big problem
            for HK and eckankar is Cheryl! She is really a great detractor
            of the teachings. I suspect that some of her Hu-Chatter
            buddies are feeding her delusion of not seeing herself in
            the words of the master! Yeah, there is a definite problem
            on Hu-Chat--Harold knows it and doesn't like it, but it
            seems the eckists there don't care what he thinks! LOL!

            Mish
          • prometheus_973
            Hi Mish, Yes, Klemp wrote: On one hand, they are ever so loving and helpful and have such sad stories to tell as they look for sympathy in order to get one
            Message 5 of 19 , Dec 11, 2006
              Hi Mish,
              Yes, Klemp wrote: "On one hand, they are ever
              so loving and helpful" and have such sad stories
              to tell as they look for sympathy in order to get
              one to take their guard down while they move in
              for the kill. Such is the case with HU-Chat Cheryl.
              <sigh>

              The big question for Eck H.I. Leaders and RESAs
              is: Should there be a list for foxes "goose-stepping,"
              and behaving "schizophrenic?" How about those H.I.s
              that are "power seekers" and "perpetrators" and those
              "with opposing or antagonistic sides?" What is the
              criteria for being put on that list? It is clear that HU-
              Chat Cheryl should be on the list but who else? HK
              will have to give some direction in the RESA Star.

              Let's face it, the Internet Eck Sites can help or harm
              Eckankar. However, it speaks volumns as to the validity
              of the Eck teachings when H.I.s like Cheryl and company
              are permitted to be so negative, unfriendly, and Kal
              (Satan) like as Eck H.I. Vahana (missionary) leaders.

              When Eckists, and the public alike, see this kind of
              "antagonistic" behaviour from an "out of control" ego
              and a "power seeker" with a 20 year membership
              and a H.I. like Cheryl, What are they to think about
              Eckankar?

              The big problem that Klemp has is: Getting his Eck
              Leaders to report these "foxes" to the RESAs! In each
              region there should be at least one Eckist put on the
              "fox" list. Unfortunately, most Eckists do not participate
              all that much for these foxes to show their heads.
              Besides, foxes are much more sly than chickens and
              they have holes to hide in. Hey, what happened to the
              farmer in HK's little analogy? Shouldn't the farmer (LEM)
              be responsible for the safety of his chickens? It seems
              that the farmer hasn't been doing his chores for a long
              time! Maybe too much time and money was spent on
              building a new farmhouse, barn, and shed without
              attending to the farm animals and garden!

              Also, it is obvious that Cheryl should be on the chicken
              sh_t list so now what is her RESA to do? Will the ESC get
              involved too... it should! As I said before... HK needs
              to make an example of these people. Why would HK
              allow Kal-Eckists to remain in Eckankar, unless, this
              was a Kalistic Religion just like all the rest! Is the
              LEM/Mahanta a 2nd or 4th Plane God? How can a
              negative person like Cheryl be given a 5th? How can
              other foxes be 7ths and RESAs? Why are RESAs afraid
              to act? Would they be hurting their friends and those
              they rely upon to get things done? Inquiring minds want
              to know!

              Prometheus




              Mish wrote:
              >
              > Hi, All!
              > ]
              > I thought it would be interesting to compare an
              > excerpt from Harold's recent H.I. Newsletter to a
              > post by Cheryl on Hu-Chat which examplifies the
              > "fox" behavior HK is complaining about within his
              > eck leader (H.I.s) camp!
              >
              >
              > Harold wrote:
              > "I was thinking about the constant struggle that
              > exists have between love and power, even among
              > ECKists. You look at such people with their
              > goose-stepping tactics and you wonder about them.
              > Sometimes they almost seem to be schizophrenic,
              > with opposing or antagonistic sides.
              >
              > On one hand, they are ever so loving and helpful.
              > BUT on the other, they are tromping on the rights
              > of others with big, muddy boots. Yet they can't see
              > themselves.
              >
              > Don't we all find it easier to spot a blemish in another
              > instead of ourselves? Behind the big boots is the ego.
              > It is out of control and can thus do a great deal of harm.
              > These goose- stepping people love power, not love.
              > It is disheartening to see them. They intrude into the
              > domain of others. Deep within a file cabinet they come
              > across a vague rule that, if taken out of context, says
              > the others are not in compliance with it.
              >
              > This steps on people lower in the pecking order, who
              > must keep silent." (unquote)
              >
              > This is Cheryl's "goose-stepping" response to a newbie
              > member's post on Hu-Chat:
              >
              > "I'm sorry to hear that you're this intolerant and limited
              > in your vision of other souls, Jeri. A personal attack from
              > you publically is certainly one way that I can learn about
              > what you call 'love' in your life. I'll file that under "need
              > to know" for future reference!" (unquote)
              >
              > Please note Harold's reference to "a file cabinet" and
              > Cheryl's threatening words, "I'll file that under 'need to
              > know' for future reference!" Rather obvious the
              > goose-stepping fox who cannot see herself as a big problem
              > for HK and eckankar is Cheryl! She is really a great detractor
              > of the teachings. I suspect that some of her Hu-Chatter
              > buddies are feeding her delusion of not seeing herself in
              > the words of the master! Yeah, there is a definite problem
              > on Hu-Chat--Harold knows it and doesn't like it, but it
              > seems the eckists there don't care what he thinks! LOL!
              >
              > Mish
              >
            • prometheus_973
              What I find interesting, too, is that Klemp is only talking about the female (HENS) being protected from the FOX. I ll bet the FOXES are both male and female!
              Message 6 of 19 , Dec 15, 2006
                What I find interesting, too, is that Klemp is only talking about
                the female (HENS) being protected from the FOX. I'll bet the FOXES
                are both male and female! What about the ECK ROOSTERS?

                Prometheus

                HK: "Dear Brothers of the Leaf,

                There is a FOX outside the HENHOUSE, and it bears watching.
                You are a guardian of the HENHOUSE, helping your RESA
                in making sure the ECK chelas in your area receive FAIR
                treatment from THOSE WHO ARE ABOVE THEM in some service
                to ECK.

                These lovers of truth and the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master
                deserve fair treatment. MOST ECK LEADERS show them that courtesy.
                However, A FEW DO NOT.

                Much of the ECK work is borne by chelas who do so out of pure
                love. There is no remuneration involved. Their spiritual blessings
                are great, far greater than receiving a pot of gold filled to the
                brim. So they represent love.

                The FOX stands for POWER. He is RUTHLESS and sees a house full
                of CHICKEN dinners. He feeds on the weak and helpless, on those
                who cannot defend themselves.

                Now, what kind of guardian would it be who stood by and let the
                FOX, a POWER SEEKER, satisfy his pleasure?

                SOMEONE WHO KNOWS what is going on, is in a POSITION to do
                something about it, BUT PURPOSELY SHUTS HIS EYES to the PROBLEM
                --out of FEAR, perhaps, of OFFENDING the PERPETRATOR--IS AN
                ACCOMPLICE of the FOX. How could he not be?

                I was thinking about the constant struggle that exists between LOVE
                and POWER, EVEN AMONG ECKists. You look at such people with their
                GOOSE-STEPPING TACTICS and you wonder about them. Sometimes
                they almost seem to be SCHIZOPHRENIC, with OPPOSING or ANTAGONISTIC
                sides.

                On one hand, they are ever so loving and helpful. BUT on the other,
                they are TROMPING on the rights of others with BIG, MUDDY BOOTS.
                YET THEY CAN'T SEE THEMSELVES.

                Don't we all find it easier to spot a BLEMISH in another instead of
                ourselves? Behind the BIG BOOTS is the EGO. It is OUT OF CONTROL
                and can thus do a GREAT DEAL OF HARM. These GOOSE-STEPPING
                people LOVE POWER, NOT LOVE. It is DISHEARTENING to see them.
                They INTRUDE into the domain of others. Deep within a FILE CABINET
                they come across a VAGUE RULE that, if taken out of context, says the
                others are not in compliance with it.

                This steps on people LOWER in the PECKING ORDER, who must
                keep silent.

                Long ago, as a Vahana in the field, I happened into a neighboring
                Mahdis's area to give an introductory lecture. This was in the old
                days, when the rules were not always drafted very well. That Mahdis
                complained to the ECK Office. So I found that the better part of valor
                was discretion, and thus wisely kept out of the area. What struct me
                was that the area wasn't growing! This Mahdis used up so much energy
                protecting her turf that she had neither the time nor energy to do an
                adequate job of ECK Vahana work in her very populous area. It was sad.

                She would not do it and acted like a bucket of cold water when
                others did show initiative. One such person can do so much damage
                to an organization, especially to one like ECKANKAR, because it places
                a lot of faith in volunteers and their love for the Master.

                These FOXES--POWER EATERS--are EXTREMELY STUBBORN in their
                determination to DOMINATE others. IF they could only SEE themselves.
                Their motto: 'MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY.'

                Other approaches they favor include becoming overly familiar
                with an intended VICTIM. Then they take control of the other's life.
                The GOOSE-STEPPER, the FOX, is thus GUILTY of VIOLATING the ECK
                PRECEPT of allowing others to have their freedom.

                Such a person thinks that his EGO is under control as much as that
                of another.

                He LICKS the BOOTS of THOSE ABOVE him in the HIERARCHY and expects
                those BELOW him to LICK his. He is truly SCHIZOPHRENIC. He and his like
                are few in number, BUT They Do So Much Damage to the ECK Missionary
                Effort. They are like an ATOMIC BOMB exploding over a city.

                You may get reports of a fox operating in a Satsang class, as someone
                in charge of ECK intro talks, or in Other Important ECK activities.
                Keep your Eyes and Ears Open. FIND OUT IF anything is behind the RUMORS,
                and INFORM the local ECK leadership or the RESA.

                Keep in mind that ECK chelas are precious Souls. They deserve love
                and respect. They're serving ECK out of love, not for a pot of gold.
                Sweep The Way Clear of a FOX. Allow the ECK chelas to serve. Let them
                unfold, so that their spiritual reward can be greater than any pot of
                gold.

                Harold"
              • prometheus_973
                I have some new comments about these latest instructions to ECK Leaders by their LEM/Mahanta. I have to wonder, however, are the FOXES the losers or are the
                Message 7 of 19 , Dec 19, 2006
                  I have some new comments about these latest instructions
                  to ECK Leaders by their LEM/Mahanta. I have to wonder,
                  however, are the FOXES the "losers" or are the chelas that
                  they influence the "losers?"


                  HK: "Dear Brothers of the Leaf,

                  There is a FOX outside the HENHOUSE, and it bears watching.
                  You are a guardian of the HENHOUSE, helping your RESA
                  in making sure the ECK Chelas in your area receive FAIR
                  treatment from THOSE WHO ARE ABOVE THEM in some service
                  to ECK."

                  ### Actually, the FOX is INSIDE the HENHOUSE! Unfortunately
                  for the true blue ECKist there have never been standards that
                  really measure consciousness, ethics, or the competent skills
                  and behaviours for those that are Higher Initiates. The ECK
                  Initiations are just longivity badges. Lower Initiate Chelas
                  often make the mistake of placing H.I.s on a pedestal because
                  they are told that Higher Initiations indicate a Higher Con-
                  sciousness.

                  HK: "These lovers of truth and the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master
                  deserve fair treatment. MOST ECK LEADERS show them that courtesy.
                  However, A FEW DO NOT."

                  ### There really has to be more than just a "FEW" who Do Not
                  treat other ECKists fairly! Klemp wouldn't be writing this if there
                  were just a "few" H.I.s that were causing problems!

                  HK: "Much of the ECK work is borne by chelas who do so out of pure
                  love. There is no remuneration involved. Their spiritual blessings
                  are great, far greater than receiving a pot of gold filled to the
                  brim. So they represent love."

                  ### As I said before, KLEMP IS BEING DECEPTIVE when he states that
                  there is "NO REMUNERATION INVOLVED." Everyone knows that this
                  is false because it has been stated, implied, and demonstrated that
                  there are rewards! Position and Initiation Number are the indicators
                  of outer remuneration and the mind's imagination will fill in the rest
                  in regard to inner remuneration.

                  HK: "The FOX stands for POWER. He is RUTHLESS and sees a house full
                  of CHICKEN dinners. He feeds on the weak and helpless, on those
                  who cannot defend themselves."

                  ### I still can't figure out why the FARMER/LEM hasn't been aware of
                  the FOXES before or taken measures to protect his chicken/chelas?

                  HK: "Now, what kind of guardian would it be who stood by and let the
                  FOX, a POWER SEEKER, satisfy his pleasure?"

                  ### Well, what kind of a GUARDIAN has Klemp been? Not a very good
                  one it seems! Shouldn't the LEM/Mahanta be doing a better job?! Why
                  isn't he! What's wrong with this picture?

                  HK: "SOMEONE WHO KNOWS what is going on, is in a POSITION to do
                  something about it, BUT PURPOSELY SHUTS HIS EYES to the PROBLEM
                  --out of FEAR, perhaps, of OFFENDING the PERPETRATOR--IS AN
                  ACCOMPLICE of the FOX. How could he not be?"

                  ### So why Doesn't the LEM/Mahanta KNOW what is going on? HK is
                  certainly "in a position to do something about it." Is Klemp purposely
                  shutting "his eyes to the problem--out of fear perhaps, of offending the
                  perpetrator?" Maybe Klemp, also, is an "accomplice of the FOX!" Either
                  HK is a accomplice of the KAL-ECK H.I. FOX, or the LEM/Mahanta has
                  no power, awareness, or control of the situation!

                  HK: "I was thinking about the constant struggle that exists between
                  LOVE and POWER, EVEN AMONG ECKists. You look at such people
                  with their GOOSE-STEPPING TACTICS and you wonder about them.
                  Sometimes they almost seem to be SCHIZOPHRENIC, with OPPOSING
                  or ANTAGONISTIC sides."

                  ### Since Klemp has been informed of the "Goose-Stepping Tactics"
                  and the "Schizophrenic," "Opposing," and "Antagonistic" Behaviours
                  of these Power Loving KAL-ECKists... why hasn't he done anything?
                  This didn't just happen overnight!

                  HK: "On one hand, they are ever so loving and helpful. BUT on the
                  other, they are TROMPING on the rights of others with BIG, MUDDY
                  BOOTS. YET THEY CAN'T SEE THEMSELVES."

                  ### Perhaps ECKANKAR should emphasize more self-reflection,
                  and correct improper communication techniques and bad behaviour
                  through special one-to-one classes for those that don't quite GET IT.
                  That's it! ECKANKAR should have a Re-Indoctrination Class for the
                  KAL-ECK H.I. FOXES and retrain them to act "as if" they are more
                  spiritually evolved.

                  HK: "Don't we all find it easier to spot a BLEMISH in another instead
                  of ourselves? Behind the BIG BOOTS is the EGO. It is OUT OF CONTROL
                  and can thus do a GREAT DEAL OF HARM. These GOOSE-STEPPING
                  people LOVE POWER, NOT LOVE. It is DISHEARTENING to see them.
                  They INTRUDE into the domain of others. Deep within a FILE CABINET
                  they come across a VAGUE RULE that, if taken out of context, says the
                  others are not in compliance with it."

                  ### True, about seeing the blemish in someone else and not in one's
                  self! This certainly applies to Klemp since he has always made
                  judgments of others and has never admitted to anything, or to where
                  he had made a mistake or been wrong. The most Klemp has ever
                  admitted to is when he states that nobody is perfect! Therefore, HK is
                  a hypocrite! And, why should other H.I.s should be the "guardians"
                  for him? Klemp should quit passing the buck! Then, again, they do
                  say that sh_t runs downhill. LOL!

                  HK: "This steps on people LOWER in the PECKING ORDER, who must
                  keep silent."

                  ### Isn't it funny that Klemp uses the term HENHOUSE and PECKING
                  ORDER to describe the ECK Chelas and the ECKANKAR Hierarchy! Was
                  this a Freudian slip that really indicates what he thinks of his
                  followers?

                  HK: "Long ago, as a Vahana in the field, I happened into a neighboring
                  Mahdis's area to give an introductory lecture. This was in the old
                  days, when the rules were not always drafted very well. That Mahdis
                  complained to the ECK Office. So I found that the better part of valor
                  was discretion, and thus wisely kept out of the area. What struct me
                  was that the area wasn't growing! This Mahdis used up so much energy
                  protecting her turf that she had neither the time nor energy to do an
                  adequate job of ECK Vahana work in her very populous area. It was sad.

                  She would not do it and acted like a bucket of cold water when
                  others did show initiative. One such person can do so much damage
                  to an organization, especially to one like ECKANKAR, because it places
                  a lot of faith in volunteers and their love for the Master."

                  ### So, was she too a FOX? Was Darwin Gross FOX or FOWL?
                  Was D.G. a FOX or FOWL when he passed the ROD to H.K.?

                  HK: "These FOXES--POWER EATERS--are EXTREMELY STUBBORN in their
                  determination to DOMINATE others. IF they could only SEE themselves.
                  Their motto: 'MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY.'"

                  ### It seems that this is the case on HU-Chat! I wonder why Klemp
                  permits the negative behaviours of these ECK site moderators/
                  Vahanas? The "Section 8" HU-Chat S.O.P. is Crazy! LOL!

                  HK: "Other approaches they favor include becoming overly familiar
                  with an intended VICTIM. Then they take control of the other's life.
                  The GOOSE-STEPPER, the FOX, is thus GUILTY of VIOLATING the ECK
                  PRECEPT of allowing others to have their freedom."

                  ### Yes, this sounds like those HU-CHAT Moderators for sure! It
                  seems they are taking advantage of their weak and fearful RESAs
                  and those timid and confused staffers at the ESC. Isn't Joan in
                  charge of RESA Services? I wonder why nothing is being done about
                  the HU-Chat Cheryl type of KAL FOXES? Maybe Klemp is ALL BARK and
                  NO BITE? Where's his responsibility, for taking action, to the TRUE
                  BLUE ECKists?

                  HK: "Such a person Thinks that his EGO is under control as much as that
                  of another.

                  He LICKS the BOOTS of THOSE ABOVE him in the HIERARCHY and expects
                  those BELOW him to LICK his. He is truly SCHIZOPHRENIC. He and his like
                  are few in number, BUT They Do So Much Damage to the ECK Missionary
                  Effort. They are like an ATOMIC BOMB exploding over a city."

                  ### Maybe Cheryl's BOOT LICKING is what's keeping her RESA from doing
                  something? Or, maybe her RESA is afraid of her! Yes, CHERYL "IS TRULY
                  SCHIZOPHRENIC!" And, let's face it... Cheryl's EGO is way out-of-control!

                  HK: "You may get Reports of a FOX Operating in a SATSANG CLASS,
                  as SOMEONE IN CHARGE of ECK INTRO TALKS, or in OTHER Important
                  ECK Activities. KEEP YOUR EYES and EARS OPEN. FIND OUT IF Anything
                  is Behind the RUMORS, and INFORM the Local ECK Leadership or the RESA."

                  ### See, now this is why Aranata Training should be pass/fail and why
                  Not everyone should automatically be passed! However, this too is one
                  of the flaws behind ECKANKAR. It is an assumption that those with Higher
                  Initiations are guided by the Mahanta, and are advanced spiritually and
                  that this spiritual advancement has nothing to do with outer behaviours
                  since nobody is perfect! Therefore, H.I.'s have a free pass to get away
                  with bad behaviour and irresponsibility to follow the ECK Dogma,
                  Guidelines, Zoas and other rules of conduct for Arahatas/Vahanas
                  and H.I.s.

                  HK: "Keep in mind that ECK chelas are precious Souls. They deserve love
                  and respect. They're serving ECK out of love, not for a pot of gold.
                  SWEEP The WAY CLEAR of a FOX. Allow the ECK chelas to serve. Let them
                  unfold, so that their spiritual reward can be greater than any pot of
                  gold. Harold"

                  ### I think that ECKisats will be seeing Bumps Under the Rug after,
                  whoever (?), will SWEEP THE WAY CLEAR of these FOXES. Isn't it also
                  interesting that Klemp just signs this with "Harold." It seems that he
                  is somewhat pissed off that his RESAs are so passive and fearful!
                  This is why the ESC should be handling this problem with HU-Chat
                  Cheryl and other KAL-ECK FOXES. Most RESAs are incapable of doing
                  the right thing because they rely on these FOXES and their Cohorts,
                  and they are friends with many of these FOXES too! Let's face it -
                  Who's going to point fingers at someone else when they have their
                  own blemishes? See the problem that Klemp has created. Eckankar is
                  an endless cycle of delusion and confusion that keep the ignorant
                  in a state of imbalance. That's why ECKists need to rely and submit
                  to Klemp who is now relying on them to find the FOXES. Does that
                  make sense?

                  Prometheus
                • prometheus_973
                  It s interesting to see the negativity from HU-Chat H.I.s continue even after this recent H.I. Letter! These H.I. FOXES disregard the SOP of the HU-Chat
                  Message 8 of 19 , Dec 21, 2006
                    It's interesting to see the negativity from HU-Chat H.I.s continue
                    even after this recent H.I. Letter! These H.I. FOXES disregard the
                    SOP of the HU-Chat Community. Just read the SOP "Introduction"
                    and see the statement that the "HU-Chat community" is a "warm
                    and friendly place," with "consideration and fellowship," or that
                    it is like a "cozy cafe" or a "sponsered ECKANKAR event" whose
                    "atmosphere is loving, spiritual, causal, and warm." What a joke!

                    These hypocrites are H.I. FOXES! Yes, Steve R., Cheryl G. (of
                    course), Frank, Val, Joe, etc., etc. are all hypocrites of their own
                    SOP and are KAL-ECK "FOXES" as described in these current words
                    by their LEM/Mahanta.

                    However, it seems that many of these H.I.s don't value the Outer
                    Teachings and view all "written or spoken" ECK material as being
                    Lower Mental Plane spiritual teachings. Anything of "real" substance
                    comes from the Higher "Inner" Planes or from the "HEART." The Lower
                    Mental Plane is of the KAL and, therefore, the Written Shariyats
                    and all Written Words/ECK Works (even those of Klemp) are
                    subject to individual interpretation (opinion) and are, also,
                    distortions of higher Truth that can only be found on the INNER
                    via the Heart Center. Apparently these deluded H.I. FOXES think
                    or assume that the "Heart" Center (Heart Chakra) is Higher than
                    the Tisra Til or the Crown Chakra (BTW-all chakras are of the Astral).

                    Anyway, this is why these deluded H.I. FOXES disregard this current
                    H.I. LETTER. They can't see themselves (the FOX) in the mirror! They
                    must think Klemp (their LEM/Mahanta) is just blowing off steam or
                    is talking of someone else! Then again, if these FOXES see all written
                    and spoken words as Lower Plane ramblings that are just vague guides-
                    lines until Higher Truth is revealed on the INNER then I wonder why
                    they still think that they need a LEM? In a sense they, like Twitchell,
                    have become their own Compilers of Truth and their own LEM!

                    Prometheus



                    ******************************************************************
                    HK: "Dear Brothers of the Leaf,

                    There is a FOX outside the HENHOUSE, and it bears watching.
                    You are a Guardian of the HENHOUSE, helping your RESA
                    in making sure the ECK chelas in your area receive FAIR
                    treatment from THOSE WHO ARE ABOVE THEM in Some Service
                    to ECK.

                    These lovers of truth and the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master
                    deserve fair treatment. MOST ECK LEADERS show them that Courtesy.
                    However, A FEW DO NOT.

                    Much of the ECK work is borne by chelas who do so out of pure
                    love. There is no remuneration involved. Their spiritual blessings
                    are great, far greater than receiving a pot of gold filled to the
                    brim. So They Represent Love.

                    The FOX stands for POWER. He is RUTHLESS and sees a house full
                    of CHICKEN dinners. He feeds on the weak and helpless, on those
                    who cannot defend themselves.

                    Now, what kind of guardian would it be who stood by and let the
                    FOX, a POWER SEEKER, satisfy his pleasure?

                    SOMEONE WHO KNOWS what is going on, is in a POSITION to do
                    something about it, BUT PURPOSELY SHUTS HIS EYES to the PROBLEM
                    --out of FEAR, perhaps, of OFFENDING the PERPETRATOR--IS AN
                    ACCOMPLICE of the FOX. How could he not be?

                    I was thinking about the constant struggle that exists between LOVE
                    and POWER, EVEN AMONG ECKists. You look at such people with their
                    GOOSE-STEPPING TACTICS and you wonder about them. Sometimes
                    they almost seem to be SCHIZOPHRENIC, with OPPOSING or ANTAGONISTIC
                    sides.

                    On one hand, they are ever so loving and helpful. BUT on the other,
                    they are TROMPING on the rights of others with BIG, MUDDY BOOTS.
                    YET THEY CAN'T SEE THEMSELVES.

                    Don't we all find it easier to spot a BLEMISH in another instead of
                    ourselves? Behind the BIG BOOTS is the EGO. It is OUT OF CONTROL
                    and can thus do a GREAT DEAL OF HARM. These GOOSE-STEPPING
                    people LOVE POWER, NOT LOVE. It is DISHEARTENING to see them.
                    They INTRUDE into the domain of others. Deep within a FILE CABINET
                    they come across a VAGUE RULE that, if taken out of context, says the
                    others are not in compliance with it.

                    This steps on people LOWER in the PECKING ORDER, who must
                    keep silent.

                    Long ago, as a Vahana in the field, I happened into a neighboring
                    Mahdis's area to give an introductory lecture. This was in the old
                    days, when the rules were not always drafted very well. That Mahdis
                    complained to the ECK Office. So I found that the better part of valor
                    was discretion, and thus wisely kept out of the area. What struct me
                    was that the area wasn't growing! This Mahdis used up so much energy
                    protecting her turf that she had neither the time nor energy to do an
                    adequate job of ECK Vahana work in her very populous area. It was sad.

                    She would not do it and acted like a bucket of cold water when
                    others did show initiative. One such person can do so much damage
                    to an organization, especially to one like ECKANKAR, because it places
                    a lot of faith in volunteers and their love for the Master.

                    These FOXES--POWER EATERS--are EXTREMELY STUBBORN in their
                    determination to DOMINATE others. IF THEY COULD ONLY SEE THEMSELVES.
                    Their motto: 'MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY.'

                    Other approaches they favor include becoming overly familiar
                    with an intended VICTIM. Then they take control of the other's life.
                    The GOOSE-STEPPER, the FOX, is thus GUILTY of VIOLATING the ECK
                    PRECEPT of Allowing Others To Have Their Freedom.

                    Such a person thinks that his EGO is under control as much as that
                    of another.

                    He [She] LICKS the BOOTS of THOSE ABOVE him [her] in the HIERARCHY
                    and expects those BELOW him to LICK his [hers]. He [She] is truly
                    SCHIZOPHRENIC. He [She] and his [her] like are few in number, BUT
                    They Do So Much Damage to the ECK Missionary Effort. They are like
                    an ATOMIC BOMB Exploding Over A City.

                    You may get reports of a FOX operating in a Satsang Class, as Someone
                    In Charge of ECK Intro Talks, or in Other Important ECK Activities.
                    Keep your Eyes and Ears Open. FIND OUT IF Anything is behind the
                    RUMORS, and INFORM the Local ECK Leadership or the RESA.

                    Keep in mind that ECK Chelas are precious Souls. They deserve Love
                    and Respect. They're serving ECK out of love, not for a pot of gold.
                    Sweep The Way Clear of a FOX. Allow the ECK Chelas to serve. Let them
                    unfold, so that their spiritual reward can be greater than any pot of
                    gold.

                    Harold"

                    [My caps and bracked additions]

                    Prometheus
                  • mishmisha9
                    Obviously, these H.I.s on Hu-Chat are not getting it on the inner either, thus, proving the initiations are truly bogus. They are power tripping individuals
                    Message 9 of 19 , Dec 21, 2006
                      Obviously, these H.I.s on Hu-Chat are not getting it
                      on the inner either, thus, proving the initiations are
                      truly bogus. They are power tripping individuals who
                      slip on a religious robe in order to feed their own
                      self-serving egos. It seems that Hu-Chat needs some
                      sort of cleansing for sure--it is not a safe haven for
                      eckists unless one wants to be borglike! Pity and
                      shame on them: Cheryl, Steve R., Joe Homsey and the
                      other unkind, unloving, untrusting, and obviously out
                      of touch with the mahanta kal eckists. They have
                      established their own narrow dark path and are
                      working hard to direct the sincere and loving chelas
                      to follow their lead rather than the lead of their beloved
                      mahanta. Really shame on them! Sarah needs to step
                      up to the plate as owner of the Hu-Chat site--she is
                      "the guardian" Harold instructed in the H.I. Newsletter
                      to protect that community (henhouse) from the "foxes!"
                      Harold's words: "Keep in mind that ECK chelas are
                      precious Souls. They deserve love and respect. They're
                      serving ECK out of love, not for a pot of gold. Sweep the
                      way clear of a fox. Allow the ECK chelas to serve. Let
                      them unfold, so that their spiritual reward can be greater
                      than any pot of gold." It doesn't sound like Harold would
                      like what Cheryl, Steve R., Joe Homsey and company are
                      doing on Hu-Chat. They easily instruct others to go to
                      the inner to find truth while they certainly haven't found
                      their way there as of yet. I doubt very much if they have
                      experienced anything on the inner(except for the lower
                      astral regions) or they wouldn't be behaving so cruelly
                      and so wrongly with all their accusations and attacks.
                      They concern themselves only with themselves--their
                      inflated egos! A fine mix of stupidity, arrogance and
                      insanity! Gee, it must suck to be them! : )

                      Mish


                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                      <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > It's interesting to see the negativity from HU-Chat H.I.s continue
                      > even after this recent H.I. Letter! These H.I. FOXES disregard the
                      > SOP of the HU-Chat Community. Just read the SOP "Introduction"
                      > and see the statement that the "HU-Chat community" is a "warm
                      > and friendly place," with "consideration and fellowship," or that
                      > it is like a "cozy cafe" or a "sponsered ECKANKAR event" whose
                      > "atmosphere is loving, spiritual, causal, and warm." What a joke!
                      >
                      > These hypocrites are H.I. FOXES! Yes, Steve R., Cheryl G. (of
                      > course), Frank, Val, Joe, etc., etc. are all hypocrites of their own
                      > SOP and are KAL-ECK "FOXES" as described in these current words
                      > by their LEM/Mahanta.
                      >
                      > However, it seems that many of these H.I.s don't value the Outer
                      > Teachings and view all "written or spoken" ECK material as being
                      > Lower Mental Plane spiritual teachings. Anything of "real" substance
                      > comes from the Higher "Inner" Planes or from the "HEART." The Lower
                      > Mental Plane is of the KAL and, therefore, the Written Shariyats
                      > and all Written Words/ECK Works (even those of Klemp) are
                      > subject to individual interpretation (opinion) and are, also,
                      > distortions of higher Truth that can only be found on the INNER
                      > via the Heart Center. Apparently these deluded H.I. FOXES think
                      > or assume that the "Heart" Center (Heart Chakra) is Higher than
                      > the Tisra Til or the Crown Chakra (BTW-all chakras are of the Astral).
                      >
                      > Anyway, this is why these deluded H.I. FOXES disregard this current
                      > H.I. LETTER. They can't see themselves (the FOX) in the mirror! They
                      > must think Klemp (their LEM/Mahanta) is just blowing off steam or
                      > is talking of someone else! Then again, if these FOXES see all written
                      > and spoken words as Lower Plane ramblings that are just vague guides-
                      > lines until Higher Truth is revealed on the INNER then I wonder why
                      > they still think that they need a LEM? In a sense they, like Twitchell,
                      > have become their own Compilers of Truth and their own LEM!
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ******************************************************************
                      > HK: "Dear Brothers of the Leaf,
                      >
                      > There is a FOX outside the HENHOUSE, and it bears watching.
                      > You are a Guardian of the HENHOUSE, helping your RESA
                      > in making sure the ECK chelas in your area receive FAIR
                      > treatment from THOSE WHO ARE ABOVE THEM in Some Service
                      > to ECK.
                      >
                      > These lovers of truth and the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master
                      > deserve fair treatment. MOST ECK LEADERS show them that Courtesy.
                      > However, A FEW DO NOT.
                      >
                      > Much of the ECK work is borne by chelas who do so out of pure
                      > love. There is no remuneration involved. Their spiritual blessings
                      > are great, far greater than receiving a pot of gold filled to the
                      > brim. So They Represent Love.
                      >
                      > The FOX stands for POWER. He is RUTHLESS and sees a house full
                      > of CHICKEN dinners. He feeds on the weak and helpless, on those
                      > who cannot defend themselves.
                      >
                      > Now, what kind of guardian would it be who stood by and let the
                      > FOX, a POWER SEEKER, satisfy his pleasure?
                      >
                      > SOMEONE WHO KNOWS what is going on, is in a POSITION to do
                      > something about it, BUT PURPOSELY SHUTS HIS EYES to the PROBLEM
                      > --out of FEAR, perhaps, of OFFENDING the PERPETRATOR--IS AN
                      > ACCOMPLICE of the FOX. How could he not be?
                      >
                      > I was thinking about the constant struggle that exists between LOVE
                      > and POWER, EVEN AMONG ECKists. You look at such people with their
                      > GOOSE-STEPPING TACTICS and you wonder about them. Sometimes
                      > they almost seem to be SCHIZOPHRENIC, with OPPOSING or ANTAGONISTIC
                      > sides.
                      >
                      > On one hand, they are ever so loving and helpful. BUT on the other,
                      > they are TROMPING on the rights of others with BIG, MUDDY BOOTS.
                      > YET THEY CAN'T SEE THEMSELVES.
                      >
                      > Don't we all find it easier to spot a BLEMISH in another instead of
                      > ourselves? Behind the BIG BOOTS is the EGO. It is OUT OF CONTROL
                      > and can thus do a GREAT DEAL OF HARM. These GOOSE-STEPPING
                      > people LOVE POWER, NOT LOVE. It is DISHEARTENING to see them.
                      > They INTRUDE into the domain of others. Deep within a FILE CABINET
                      > they come across a VAGUE RULE that, if taken out of context, says the
                      > others are not in compliance with it.
                      >
                      > This steps on people LOWER in the PECKING ORDER, who must
                      > keep silent.
                      >
                      > Long ago, as a Vahana in the field, I happened into a neighboring
                      > Mahdis's area to give an introductory lecture. This was in the old
                      > days, when the rules were not always drafted very well. That Mahdis
                      > complained to the ECK Office. So I found that the better part of valor
                      > was discretion, and thus wisely kept out of the area. What struct me
                      > was that the area wasn't growing! This Mahdis used up so much energy
                      > protecting her turf that she had neither the time nor energy to do an
                      > adequate job of ECK Vahana work in her very populous area. It was sad.
                      >
                      > She would not do it and acted like a bucket of cold water when
                      > others did show initiative. One such person can do so much damage
                      > to an organization, especially to one like ECKANKAR, because it places
                      > a lot of faith in volunteers and their love for the Master.
                      >
                      > These FOXES--POWER EATERS--are EXTREMELY STUBBORN in their
                      > determination to DOMINATE others. IF THEY COULD ONLY SEE THEMSELVES.
                      > Their motto: 'MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY.'
                      >
                      > Other approaches they favor include becoming overly familiar
                      > with an intended VICTIM. Then they take control of the other's life.
                      > The GOOSE-STEPPER, the FOX, is thus GUILTY of VIOLATING the ECK
                      > PRECEPT of Allowing Others To Have Their Freedom.
                      >
                      > Such a person thinks that his EGO is under control as much as that
                      > of another.
                      >
                      > He [She] LICKS the BOOTS of THOSE ABOVE him [her] in the HIERARCHY
                      > and expects those BELOW him to LICK his [hers]. He [She] is truly
                      > SCHIZOPHRENIC. He [She] and his [her] like are few in number, BUT
                      > They Do So Much Damage to the ECK Missionary Effort. They are like
                      > an ATOMIC BOMB Exploding Over A City.
                      >
                      > You may get reports of a FOX operating in a Satsang Class, as Someone
                      > In Charge of ECK Intro Talks, or in Other Important ECK Activities.
                      > Keep your Eyes and Ears Open. FIND OUT IF Anything is behind the
                      > RUMORS, and INFORM the Local ECK Leadership or the RESA.
                      >
                      > Keep in mind that ECK Chelas are precious Souls. They deserve Love
                      > and Respect. They're serving ECK out of love, not for a pot of gold.
                      > Sweep The Way Clear of a FOX. Allow the ECK Chelas to serve. Let them
                      > unfold, so that their spiritual reward can be greater than any pot of
                      > gold.
                      >
                      > Harold"
                      >
                      > [My caps and bracked additions]
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                      >
                    • prometheus_973
                      The purpose here is to give a comparison - to what Klemp says to the mix of Lower & Higher Initiates and then to the Higher Initiates alone. It s always
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jan 6, 2007
                        The purpose here is to give a comparison - to what Klemp says
                        to the mix of Lower & Higher Initiates and then to the Higher
                        Initiates alone. It's always interesting to see just how HK spins
                        the truth, re-indoctrinates, and does his damage control as he
                        expects chelas to get the hints or mindlessly become more the
                        Z-zombies that he expects them to be. [My Caps and bracketed
                        comments below]


                        HK: "Dear Ones,

                        It is necessary for us to become a MIRROR of God's will. Let me
                        explain:

                        A newcomer to the teachings of ECK made a visit to an ECK
                        center to get a feel for the people. Unfortunately, he found no
                        warmth there. No one came to greet him, ask how he was doing,
                        or if he wished someone to address any of his questions. He
                        found the atmosphere in the ECK center to be decidedly chilly.

                        At home he thought, I'll give it another chance. And so he went
                        back to the ECK center, curious as to what he would find.

                        The atmosphere was again cold and uninviting."

                        [ME]: I must say that this is rather typical. Many ECKists think
                        that the PR (intros, etc.) got him to ECK-now it's up to him!
                        Not that many ECKists really want others to join the private
                        club, and why waste your time explaining everything to these
                        newbies when they can get it on the inner! HU-CHAT Cheryl
                        wouldn't waste her time being all warm and friendly to a newbie
                        or oldie!

                        HK: "These are NOT my kind of people, he reasoned. Just as he
                        was about to go out the door, a warm and personable man came
                        over to greet him. So the newcomer posed a number of questions
                        about ECKANKAR. All the answers satisfied him. Yet for all that,
                        a larger question hung in his mind, demanding some resolution.

                        So he said. "Why are the others walking around like mute Zombies?"
                        The answer startled him. "They're practicing the Law of Silence!"

                        [ME]: Now all of us really know that they were NOT knowingly
                        practicing the Law of Silence! The truth is that they were being
                        unfriendly, were caught up in their own thing to bother with a
                        stranger, and most ECKists seem rather shy because they
                        have very poor social skills anyway! I'm rather surprised that
                        Klemp is making excuses for the ineptness of his Arahatas
                        and Vahanas. But I see his ploy. After 24 years of leadership
                        it seems HK just can't admit or take responsibility for what
                        ECKANKAR and his chelas have become on his watch as the
                        LEM/Mahanta-LOSERS!

                        Therefore, Klemp is now offering an excuse or an explanation
                        to give to newcomers when they too experience the coldness
                        of negativity minus any compassion or love. Delusion is a quick
                        fix and HK has mastered this. He is now taking a band-aid
                        approach to the problem for what time he has left! ECKANKAR
                        is a facade anyway so why not create this excuse/solution
                        since it can't be fixed anyway!

                        HK: "The other fellow went on to explain what that meant, giving
                        the newcomer some satisfaction, sufficient enough for him to
                        look into becoming an ECKIST.

                        Many of you already know what the Law of Silence entails. It
                        explains the relationship between the chela and the secret
                        teachings which the Master entrusts to an individual. In
                        general, it means to be silent about the inner mysteries. These
                        include things like one's secret word, unique spiritual excercises
                        to help boost an individual into a higher state of consciousness,
                        and other things."

                        [ME] So, how were these chelas at the ECK center practicing the
                        Law of Silence when the newcomer "found no warmth there?"
                        Shouldn't there have been love in their hearts as they experienced
                        their "higher states of consciousness, and other things?" BTW-
                        there's a disclaimer to follow.

                        HK: "BUT it excludes a dream or Soul Travel experience that
                        would help others better understand some aspect of the ECK
                        teachings. So it is alright to share FITTING STORIES in ECK book
                        discussion or ECK Satsang classes, and even in private con-
                        versations WHEN the talk turns to spiritual matters.

                        And, PLEASE, AVOID using such venues to announce yourself
                        as a SUPERHIGH INITIATE. All It Does Is Reveal You As KAL's
                        DUPE, one with an EXAGGERATED OPINION of his own Spiritual
                        Worth. To do so is to broadcast having failed a test"

                        [ME] Wow! That was nasty of Klemp! So once again we see that
                        Having a 7th or 8th Initiation Doesn't Mean one has Higher
                        Consciousness-just a Higher Opinion of one's self worth.
                        What's the point then?! It's obvious that Eckankar doesn't work
                        and is just another delusional KAL religion. Now for a change
                        in tone and topic.

                        HK: "A SOLID ECK CHELA is always ready and willing to serve
                        God. He understands the meaning of The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad
                        when it says, 'The ECKist does not have to ask where his talents
                        can be the most useful. Instead it should be, What is God asking
                        me to do?' Then the ECK will bring to bear all your known and
                        unknown talents to serve God better."

                        [ME]: Isn't this quote just a paraphase of what John F. Kennedy
                        said, "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you
                        can do for your country." Twitchell stole from everyone! LOL!
                        BTW- I know that there are only the Two Shariyats for the 1st
                        and 2nd Planes, but can't Klemp share some NEW quotes from
                        the 3rd and 4th Plane Shariyats? Why doesn't he? Because they
                        don't exist!

                        Now back to a chastising tone as the former Luthern Seminary
                        Student, once again, revisits the past for a brief "history" lesson.
                        This one seems to compare the Negative situation of the Present
                        Day ECKANKAR Church to the negative aspects of the Early Catholic
                        Church.

                        HK: "Early church history teaches about the dangers to an
                        organization when its members ESTEEM SELF-SERVING BEHAVIOR
                        Above Service to Others. The Catholic Church before the
                        Prostestant Reformation had many areas of corruption. The clergy
                        were too often self-serving. That rankled a great number of
                        Catholics. Yet, overall, the church was serving the spiritual
                        needs of its parishioners.

                        It was its Unaddressed Problems, though, that would lead to
                        serious trouble."

                        [ME]: So Klemp is pointing out how the problems of the Early
                        Catholic Church are like ECKANKAR's even though spiritual
                        needs are being met. Hmmmmmmm. The Pope/Mahanta may
                        have a point there!

                        HK: "For example, many clergymen kept mistresses and raised
                        families, in spite of the church's directive for them to remain
                        celebate. The parishioners made jokes about it. Such a priest
                        was sometimes called a stallion; a mistress, his mare. It was
                        midieval humor with a bite to it."

                        [ME]: So I guess Joan was once HK's "mare." Actually, in "The
                        Path of the Masters" the virture for the passion of LUST is
                        CELEBACY! Twit Westernized it because he knew it wouldn't
                        work in Western culture.

                        HK: "Again, clergy duties might have included sitting in
                        judgment over parishioners caught in the sin of adultery.
                        Such unblushing hypocricy galled the people."

                        [ME]: HK's one to talk isn't he! He lives in a glass house and
                        is always throwing rocks!

                        HK: "For all its virtures, these and many other acts of self-
                        serving behavior among the church's clergy led to a serious
                        rebellion."

                        [ME]: So Klemp is implying that this is what's happening with
                        ECKANKAR, or is there more to the story? I knew that HK would
                        blame others and NOT his own lack of leadership or that the
                        foundation of the Eckankar Church is based upon lies, myth, and
                        distortions just like other religions!

                        HK: "Today we know it as the Protestant Reformation. The Catholic
                        Church never recovered."

                        [ME]: Hey, maybe this site (ESA) is a beginning for the protests
                        leading to the ECKANKAR Reformation!

                        HK: "Self-Serving Behavior always leads to Misunderstandings,
                        at the very least. So the ECK GUIDELINES Are All Important.
                        ECK LEADERS AT ALL LEVELS MUST ENSURE THAT THEY ARE
                        FOLLOWED, BOTH IN SPIRIT AND WORD. The Living ECK Master
                        provides them for this very reason. A CHELA WHO MISUSES
                        ONE OR THE OTHER DISTORTS THE ECK TEACHINGS.

                        In fact, SATSANGS are to help an individual line up his spiritual
                        understanding of ECK so that he increasingly becomes a TRUE
                        MIRROR of God's will. That's the secret path to spiritual freedom."

                        [ME]: So, it seems like HU-CHAT is SATSANG too! However, HK
                        is, in part, telling some truth. SPIRIT (ECK) does help the individual
                        in the TRUE SATSANG of LIFE! This leads to Spiritual Freedom
                        and Self-Mastery without the need for a middleman/mahanta or
                        the need to be in a group religion and follow GUIDELINES and
                        other Dogma, rules, and Laws to keep people silent from telling
                        the Truth. ECKists will continue to do and think as they please,
                        and Klemp can't do anything about that-except withhold fake
                        initiations. LOL!

                        Prometheus









                        ******************************************************************
                        12/2006 H.I. LETTER

                        HK: "Dear Brothers of the Leaf,
                        >
                        > There is a FOX outside the HENHOUSE, and it bears watching.
                        > You are a Guardian of the HENHOUSE, helping your RESA
                        > in making sure the ECK chelas in your area receive FAIR
                        > treatment from THOSE WHO ARE ABOVE THEM in Some Service
                        > to ECK.
                        >
                        > These lovers of truth and the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master
                        > deserve fair treatment. MOST ECK LEADERS show them that Courtesy.
                        > However, A FEW DO NOT.
                        >
                        > Much of the ECK work is borne by chelas who do so out of pure
                        > love. There is no remuneration involved. Their spiritual blessings
                        > are great, far greater than receiving a pot of gold filled to the
                        > brim. So They Represent Love.
                        >
                        > The FOX stands for POWER. He is RUTHLESS and sees a house full
                        > of CHICKEN dinners. He feeds on the weak and helpless, on those
                        > who cannot defend themselves.
                        >
                        > Now, what kind of guardian would it be who stood by and let the
                        > FOX, a POWER SEEKER, satisfy his pleasure?
                        >
                        > SOMEONE WHO KNOWS what is going on, is in a POSITION to do
                        > something about it, BUT PURPOSELY SHUTS HIS EYES to the PROBLEM
                        > --out of FEAR, perhaps, of OFFENDING the PERPETRATOR--IS AN
                        > ACCOMPLICE of the FOX. How could he not be?
                        >
                        > I was thinking about the constant struggle that exists between LOVE
                        > and POWER, EVEN AMONG ECKists. You look at such people with their
                        > GOOSE-STEPPING TACTICS and you wonder about them. Sometimes
                        > they almost seem to be SCHIZOPHRENIC, with OPPOSING or ANTAGONISTIC
                        > sides.
                        >
                        > On one hand, they are ever so loving and helpful. BUT on the other,
                        > they are TROMPING on the rights of others with BIG, MUDDY BOOTS.
                        > YET THEY CAN'T SEE THEMSELVES.
                        >
                        > Don't we all find it easier to spot a BLEMISH in another instead of
                        > ourselves? Behind the BIG BOOTS is the EGO. It is OUT OF CONTROL
                        > and can thus do a GREAT DEAL OF HARM. These GOOSE-STEPPING
                        > people LOVE POWER, NOT LOVE. It is DISHEARTENING to see them.
                        > They INTRUDE into the domain of others. Deep within a FILE CABINET
                        > they come across a VAGUE RULE that, if taken out of context, says the
                        > others are not in compliance with it.
                        >
                        > This steps on people LOWER in the PECKING ORDER, who must
                        > keep silent.
                        >
                        > Long ago, as a Vahana in the field, I happened into a neighboring
                        > Mahdis's area to give an introductory lecture. This was in the old
                        > days, when the rules were not always drafted very well. That Mahdis
                        > complained to the ECK Office. So I found that the better part of valor
                        > was discretion, and thus wisely kept out of the area. What struct me
                        > was that the area wasn't growing! This Mahdis used up so much energy
                        > protecting her turf that she had neither the time nor energy to do an
                        > adequate job of ECK Vahana work in her very populous area. It was sad.
                        >
                        > She would not do it and acted like a bucket of cold water when
                        > others did show initiative. One such person can do so much damage
                        > to an organization, especially to one like ECKANKAR, because it places
                        > a lot of faith in volunteers and their love for the Master.
                        >
                        > These FOXES--POWER EATERS--are EXTREMELY STUBBORN in their
                        > determination to DOMINATE others. IF THEY COULD ONLY SEE THEMSELVES.
                        > Their motto: 'MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY.'
                        >
                        > Other approaches they favor include becoming overly familiar
                        > with an intended VICTIM. Then they take control of the other's life.
                        > The GOOSE-STEPPER, the FOX, is thus GUILTY of VIOLATING the ECK
                        > PRECEPT of Allowing Others To Have Their Freedom.
                        >
                        > Such a person thinks that his EGO is under control as much as that
                        > of another.
                        >
                        > He [She] LICKS the BOOTS of THOSE ABOVE him [her] in the HIERARCHY
                        > and expects those BELOW him to LICK his [hers]. He [She] is truly
                        > SCHIZOPHRENIC. He [She] and his [her] like are few in number, BUT
                        > They Do So Much Damage to the ECK Missionary Effort. They are like
                        > an ATOMIC BOMB Exploding Over A City.
                        >
                        > You may get reports of a FOX operating in a Satsang Class, as Someone
                        > In Charge of ECK Intro Talks, or in Other Important ECK Activities.
                        > Keep your Eyes and Ears Open. FIND OUT IF Anything is behind the
                        > RUMORS, and INFORM the Local ECK Leadership or the RESA.
                        >
                        > Keep in mind that ECK Chelas are precious Souls. They deserve Love
                        > and Respect. They're serving ECK out of love, not for a pot of gold.
                        > Sweep The Way Clear of a FOX. Allow the ECK Chelas to serve. Let them
                        > unfold, so that their spiritual reward can be greater than any pot of
                        > gold.
                        >
                        > Harold"
                        >
                        > [My caps and bracked additions]
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                        >
                      • prometheus_973
                        Hi All, I just had a few more comments to make of Klemp s Two-Faced remarks. ... ### Doesn t it make you wonder how an ECK Center with those pictures of the
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jan 8, 2007
                          Hi All,
                          I just had a few more comments to make of Klemp's Two-Faced
                          remarks.

                          > Prometheus wrote:
                          > >
                          > > The purpose here is to give a comparison - to what Klemp says
                          > > to the mix of Lower & Higher Initiates and then to the Higher
                          > > Initiates alone. It's always interesting to see just how HK spins
                          > > the truth, re-indoctrinates, and does his damage control as he
                          > > expects chelas to get the hints or mindlessly become more the
                          > > Z-zombies that he expects them to be. [My Caps and bracketed
                          > > comments below]


                          > > HK: "Dear Ones,
                          > >
                          > > It is necessary for us to become a MIRROR of God's will. Let me
                          > > explain:
                          > >
                          > > A newcomer to the teachings of ECK made a visit to an ECK
                          > > center to get a feel for the people. Unfortunately, he found no
                          > > warmth there. No one came to greet him, ask how he was doing,
                          > > or if he wished someone to address any of his questions. He
                          > > found the atmosphere in the ECK center to be decidedly chilly.
                          > >
                          > > At home he thought, I'll give it another chance. And so he went
                          > > back to the ECK center, curious as to what he would find.
                          > >
                          > > The atmosphere was again cold and uninviting."

                          ### Doesn't it make you wonder how an ECK Center with those
                          pictures of the ECK Masters on the walls (including HK's) and all
                          of the HUing that goes on there and Satsang Classes and the EWS
                          and Initiations being given there and Roundtables, etc. that the
                          Atmosphere was "Cold and Uninviting." How can that be if ECKANKAR
                          is Not a Scam, or of the KAL? It doesn't make sense, otherwise,
                          does it!


                          > > [ME]: I must say that this is rather typical. Many ECKists think
                          > > that the PR (intros, etc.) got him to ECK-now it's up to him!
                          > > Not that many ECKists really want others to join the private
                          > > club, and why waste your time explaining everything to these
                          > > newbies when they can get it on the inner! HU-CHAT Cheryl
                          > > wouldn't waste her time being all warm and friendly to a newbie
                          > > or oldie!

                          > > HK: "These are NOT my kind of people, he reasoned. Just as he
                          > > was about to go out the door, a warm and personable man came
                          > > over to greet him. So the newcomer posed a number of questions
                          > > about ECKANKAR. All the answers satisfied him. Yet for all that,
                          > > a larger question hung in his mind, demanding some resolution.
                          > >
                          > > So he said. "Why are the others walking around like mute Zombies?"
                          > > The answer startled him. "They're practicing the Law of Silence!"

                          ### That was fast thinking by this ECKist! Was it a tongue-in-cheek
                          response that was really sarcastic? Maybe, but Klemp ran with it
                          anyway!

                          > > [ME]: Now all of us really know that they were NOT knowingly
                          > > practicing the Law of Silence! The truth is that they were being
                          > > unfriendly, were caught up in their own thing to bother with a
                          > > stranger, and most ECKists seem rather shy because they
                          > > have very poor social skills anyway! I'm rather surprised that
                          > > Klemp is making excuses for the ineptness of his Arahatas
                          > > and Vahanas. But I see his ploy. After 24 years of leadership
                          > > it seems HK just can't admit or take responsibility for what
                          > > ECKANKAR and his chelas have become on his watch as the
                          > > LEM/Mahanta-LOSERS!
                          > >
                          > > Therefore, Klemp is now offering an excuse or an explanation
                          > > to give to newcomers when they too experience the coldness
                          > > of negativity minus any compassion or love. Delusion is a quick
                          > > fix and HK has mastered this. He is now taking a band-aid
                          > > approach to the problem for what time he has left! ECKANKAR
                          > > is a facade anyway so why not create this excuse/solution
                          > > since it can't be fixed anyway!

                          > > HK: "The other fellow went on to explain what that meant, giving
                          > > the newcomer some satisfaction, sufficient enough for him to
                          > > look into becoming an ECKIST.

                          ### As long as you can give the seeker some satisfaction with
                          a little well placed B.S. then it's all good - for ECKANKAR!

                          > > Many of you already know what the Law of Silence entails. It
                          > > explains the relationship between the chela and the secret
                          > > teachings which the Master entrusts to an individual. In
                          > > general, it means to be silent about the inner mysteries. These
                          > > include things like one's secret word, unique spiritual excercises
                          > > to help boost an individual into a higher state of consciousness,
                          > > and other things."

                          > > [ME] So, how were these chelas at the ECK center practicing the
                          > > Law of Silence when the newcomer "found no warmth there?"
                          > > Shouldn't there have been love in their hearts as they experienced
                          > > their "higher states of consciousness, and other things?" BTW-
                          > > there's a disclaimer to follow.

                          > > HK: "BUT it excludes a dream or Soul Travel experience that
                          > > would help others better understand some aspect of the ECK
                          > > teachings. So it is alright to share FITTING STORIES in ECK book
                          > > discussion or ECK Satsang classes, and even in private con-
                          > > versations WHEN the talk turns to spiritual matters."

                          ### Yep! The distorted, embellished, and disjointed dream
                          experiences or OBEs (Soul Travel) experiences are the best for
                          stories about ECK Masters and such. Still, these "inner" experiences
                          are supposed to be personal and for you only right! So, why share it?
                          That's like casting your pearls before swine! Oh, I see, for
                          ECKANKAR it's a membership thing and for the chela it's a pride
                          thing!

                          > HK: "And, PLEASE, AVOID using such venues to announce yourself
                          > as a SUPERHIGH INITIATE. All It Does Is Reveal You As KAL's
                          > DUPE, one with an EXAGGERATED OPINION of his own Spiritual
                          > Worth. To do so is to broadcast having failed a test"

                          ### Does this happen often with HK's 7ths and 8ths? It must!
                          I can see why he doesn't want to demote people, but Why Not!
                          It might start giving more validation to the Initiations (in ECKists
                          minds) if Klemp did more demoting!

                          > > [ME] Wow! That was nasty of Klemp! So once again we see that
                          > > Having a 7th or 8th Initiation Doesn't Mean one has Higher
                          > > Consciousness-just a Higher Opinion of one's self worth.
                          > > What's the point then?! It's obvious that Eckankar doesn't work
                          > > and is just another delusional KAL religion. Now for a change
                          > > in tone and topic.

                          > > HK: "A SOLID ECK CHELA is always ready and willing to serve
                          > > God. He understands the meaning of The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad
                          > > when it says, 'The ECKist does not have to ask where his talents
                          > > can be the most useful. Instead it should be, What is God asking
                          > > me to do?' Then the ECK will bring to bear all your known and
                          > > unknown talents to serve God better."

                          ### I was just wondering about the classifications of ECK Chelas.
                          There are the "True" ones, the "Solid" ones, the "Losers," the "Foxes,"
                          the "Hens," the "Eagles," the "Monkeys" and many others. Maybe
                          Klemp can sort them all out and define them in his next rewrite
                          of the ECKANKAR LexiCon.

                          > > [ME]: Isn't this quote just a paraphase of what John F. Kennedy
                          > > said, "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you
                          > > can do for your country." Twitchell stole from everyone! LOL!
                          > > BTW- I know that there are only the Two Shariyats for the 1st
                          > > and 2nd Planes, but can't Klemp share some NEW quotes from
                          > > the 3rd and 4th Plane Shariyats? Why doesn't he? Because they
                          > > don't exist!
                          > >
                          > > Now back to a chastising tone as the former Luthern Seminary
                          > > Student, once again, revisits the past for a brief "history" lesson.
                          > > This one seems to compare the Negative situation of the Present
                          > > Day ECKANKAR Church to the negative aspects of the Early Catholic
                          > > Church.

                          > > HK: "Early church history teaches about the dangers to an
                          > > organization when its members ESTEEM SELF-SERVING BEHAVIOR
                          > > Above Service to Others. The Catholic Church before the
                          > > Prostestant Reformation had many areas of corruption. The clergy
                          > > were too often self-serving. That rankled a great number of
                          > > Catholics. Yet, overall, the church was serving the spiritual
                          > > needs of its parishioners.
                          > >
                          > > It was its Unaddressed Problems, though, that would lead to
                          > > serious trouble."

                          ### Is it the "unaddressed problems" of Klemp's that is causing
                          trouble for ECKANKAR and HK Not Taking Ownership For This,
                          or the conflicting information created by Twitchell for his scam?

                          > > [ME]: So Klemp is pointing out how the problems of the Early
                          > > Catholic Church are like ECKANKAR's even though spiritual
                          > > needs are being met. Hmmmmmmm. The Pope/Mahanta may
                          > > have a point there!

                          > > HK: "For example, many clergymen kept mistresses and raised
                          > > families, in spite of the church's directive for them to remain
                          > > celebate. The parishioners made jokes about it. Such a priest
                          > > was sometimes called a stallion; a mistress, his mare. It was
                          > > midieval humor with a bite to it."

                          > > [ME]: So I guess Joan was once HK's "mare." Actually, in "The
                          > > Path of the Masters" the virture for the passion of LUST is
                          > > CELEBACY! Twit Westernized it because he knew it wouldn't
                          > > work in Western culture.

                          > > HK: "Again, clergy duties might have included sitting in
                          > > judgment over parishioners caught in the sin of adultery.
                          > > Such unblushing hypocricy galled the people."

                          ### RESAs do this when the Initiation List comes to them.
                          Judgments are made as to whether ECKists get a pink slip or
                          Not! And, how many ECK Leaders are hypocrites in regard to
                          their own behaviours!

                          > > [ME]: HK's one to talk isn't he! He lives in a glass house and
                          > > is always throwing stones!

                          > > HK: "For all its virtures, these and many other acts of self-
                          > > serving behavior among the church's clergy led to a serious
                          > > rebellion."

                          ### So, why doesn't Klemp just come out and say that there
                          is a lot of self-serving behaviour in ECKANKAR with its priests!
                          Or, is Klemp saying that this is to be expected within any religion?
                          BUT, ECKANKAR isn't supposed to be like the Catholic or the
                          Protestant Churches - it's supposed to be Planes Higher! Why
                          then the comparison, unless, they're the same?

                          > > [ME]: So Klemp is implying that this is what's happening with
                          > > ECKANKAR, or is there more to the story? I knew that HK would
                          > > blame others and NOT his own lack of leadership or that the
                          > > foundation of the Eckankar Church is based upon lies, myth, and
                          > > distortions just like other religions!

                          > > HK: "Today we know it as the Protestant Reformation. The Catholic
                          > > Church never recovered."

                          ### Yes, Islam has taken its place as a political force!

                          > > [ME]: Hey, maybe this site (ESA) is a beginning for the protests
                          > > leading to the ECKANKAR Reformation!

                          > > HK: "Self-Serving Behavior always leads to Misunderstandings,
                          > > at the very least. So the ECK GUIDELINES Are All Important.
                          > > ECK LEADERS AT ALL LEVELS MUST ENSURE THAT THEY ARE
                          > > FOLLOWED, BOTH IN SPIRIT AND WORD. The Living ECK Master
                          > > provides them for this very reason. A CHELA WHO MISUSES
                          > > ONE OR THE OTHER DISTORTS THE ECK TEACHINGS.

                          > > In fact, SATSANGS are to help an individual line up his spiritual
                          > > understanding of ECK so that he increasingly becomes a TRUE
                          > > MIRROR of God's will. That's the secret path to spiritual freedom."

                          ### I knew that those pesky GUIDELINES would resurface! My
                          question is, Who's Going To Enforce The Following of the Guidelines?
                          How Many ECK Leaders (and RESAs) Even Know What All Of The
                          Guidelines Are In Order For Them To Be "Followed" in "Spirit"
                          and "Word?" Talk is Cheap!

                          > > [ME]: So, it seems like HU-CHAT is SATSANG too! However, HK
                          > > is, in part, telling some truth. SPIRIT (ECK) does help the individual
                          > > in the TRUE SATSANG of LIFE! This leads to Spiritual Freedom
                          > > and Self-Mastery without the need for a middleman/mahanta or
                          > > the need to be in a group religion and follow GUIDELINES and
                          > > other Dogma, rules, and Laws to keep people silent from telling
                          > > the Truth. ECKists will continue to do and think as they please,
                          > > and Klemp can't do anything about that-except withhold fake
                          > > initiations. LOL!
                          > >
                          > > Prometheus

                          ******************************************************************
                          > > 12/2006 H.I. LETTER
                          > >
                          > > HK: "Dear Brothers of the Leaf,
                          > > >
                          > > > There is a FOX outside the HENHOUSE, and it bears watching.
                          > > > You are a Guardian of the HENHOUSE, helping your RESA
                          > > > in making sure the ECK chelas in your area receive FAIR
                          > > > treatment from THOSE WHO ARE ABOVE THEM in Some Service
                          > > > to ECK.
                          > > >
                          > > > These lovers of truth and the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master
                          > > > deserve fair treatment. MOST ECK LEADERS show them that Courtesy.
                          > > > However, A FEW DO NOT.
                          > > >
                          > > > Much of the ECK work is borne by chelas who do so out of pure
                          > > > love. There is no remuneration involved. Their spiritual blessings
                          > > > are great, far greater than receiving a pot of gold filled to the
                          > > > brim. So They Represent Love.
                          > > >
                          > > > The FOX stands for POWER. He is RUTHLESS and sees a house full
                          > > > of CHICKEN dinners. He feeds on the weak and helpless, on those
                          > > > who cannot defend themselves.
                          > > >
                          > > > Now, what kind of guardian would it be who stood by and let the
                          > > > FOX, a POWER SEEKER, satisfy his pleasure?
                          > > >
                          > > > SOMEONE WHO KNOWS what is going on, is in a POSITION to do
                          > > > something about it, BUT PURPOSELY SHUTS HIS EYES to the PROBLEM
                          > > > --out of FEAR, perhaps, of OFFENDING the PERPETRATOR--IS AN
                          > > > ACCOMPLICE of the FOX. How could he not be?
                          > > >
                          > > > I was thinking about the constant struggle that exists between LOVE
                          > > > and POWER, EVEN AMONG ECKists. You look at such people with their
                          > > > GOOSE-STEPPING TACTICS and you wonder about them. Sometimes
                          > > > they almost seem to be SCHIZOPHRENIC, with OPPOSING or ANTAGONISTIC
                          > > > sides.
                          > > >
                          > > > On one hand, they are ever so loving and helpful. BUT on the other,
                          > > > they are TROMPING on the rights of others with BIG, MUDDY BOOTS.
                          > > > YET THEY CAN'T SEE THEMSELVES.
                          > > >
                          > > > Don't we all find it easier to spot a BLEMISH in another instead of
                          > > > ourselves? Behind the BIG BOOTS is the EGO. It is OUT OF CONTROL
                          > > > and can thus do a GREAT DEAL OF HARM. These GOOSE-STEPPING
                          > > > people LOVE POWER, NOT LOVE. It is DISHEARTENING to see them.
                          > > > They INTRUDE into the domain of others. Deep within a FILE CABINET
                          > > > they come across a VAGUE RULE that, if taken out of context, says the
                          > > > others are not in compliance with it.
                          > > >
                          > > > This steps on people LOWER in the PECKING ORDER, who must
                          > > > keep silent.
                          > > >
                          > > > Long ago, as a Vahana in the field, I happened into a neighboring
                          > > > Mahdis's area to give an introductory lecture. This was in the old
                          > > > days, when the rules were not always drafted very well. That Mahdis
                          > > > complained to the ECK Office. So I found that the better part of valor
                          > > > was discretion, and thus wisely kept out of the area. What struct me
                          > > > was that the area wasn't growing! This Mahdis used up so much energy
                          > > > protecting her turf that she had neither the time nor energy to do an
                          > > > adequate job of ECK Vahana work in her very populous area. It was sad.
                          > > >
                          > > > She would not do it and acted like a bucket of cold water when
                          > > > others did show initiative. One such person can do so much damage
                          > > > to an organization, especially to one like ECKANKAR, because it places
                          > > > a lot of faith in volunteers and their love for the Master.
                          > > >
                          > > > These FOXES--POWER EATERS--are EXTREMELY STUBBORN in their
                          > > > determination to DOMINATE others. IF THEY COULD ONLY SEE THEMSELVES.
                          > > > Their motto: 'MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY.'
                          > > >
                          > > > Other approaches they favor include becoming overly familiar
                          > > > with an intended VICTIM. Then they take control of the other's life.
                          > > > The GOOSE-STEPPER, the FOX, is thus GUILTY of VIOLATING the ECK
                          > > > PRECEPT of Allowing Others To Have Their Freedom.
                          > > >
                          > > > Such a person thinks that his EGO is under control as much as that
                          > > > of another.
                          > > >
                          > > > He [She] LICKS the BOOTS of THOSE ABOVE him [her] in the HIERARCHY
                          > > > and expects those BELOW him to LICK his [hers]. He [She] is truly
                          > > > SCHIZOPHRENIC. He [She] and his [her] like are few in number, BUT
                          > > > They Do So Much Damage to the ECK Missionary Effort. They are like
                          > > > an ATOMIC BOMB Exploding Over A City.
                          > > >
                          > > > You may get reports of a FOX operating in a Satsang Class, as Someone
                          > > > In Charge of ECK Intro Talks, or in Other Important ECK Activities.
                          > > > Keep your Eyes and Ears Open. FIND OUT IF Anything is behind the
                          > > > RUMORS, and INFORM the Local ECK Leadership or the RESA.
                          > > >
                          > > > Keep in mind that ECK Chelas are precious Souls. They deserve Love
                          > > > and Respect. They're serving ECK out of love, not for a pot of gold.
                          > > > Sweep The Way Clear of a FOX. Allow the ECK Chelas to serve. Let them
                          > > > unfold, so that their spiritual reward can be greater than any pot of
                          > > > gold.
                          > > >
                          > > > Harold"
                          > > >
                          > > > [My caps and bracked additions]
                          > > >
                          > > > Prometheus
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • etznab@aol.com
                          In a message dated 1/8/07 1:18:54 PM Central Standard Time, prometheus_973@yahoo.com writes: ... Prometheus, Do you suppose all of the unaddressed
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jan 8, 2007
                            In a message dated 1/8/07 1:18:54 PM Central Standard Time, prometheus_973@... writes:

                            <snip>

                            > HK: "Early church history teaches about the dangers to an
                            > organization when its members ESTEEM SELF-SERVING BEHAVIOR
                            > Above Service to Others. The Catholic Church before the
                            > Prostestant Reformation had many areas of corruption. The clergy
                            > were too often self-serving. That rankled a great number of
                            > Catholics. Yet, overall, the church was serving the spiritual
                            > needs of its parishioners.
                            >
                            > It was its Unaddressed Problems, though, that would lead to
                            > serious trouble."

                            ### Is it the "unaddressed problems" of Klemp's that is causing
                            trouble for ECKANKAR and HK Not Taking Ownership For This,
                            or the conflicting information created by Twitchell for his scam?


                            Prometheus,

                               Do you suppose all of the unaddressed problems could be
                            addressed? I know the possibility sounds encouraging, even
                            to me, but I don't imagine that every single problem could or
                            even should be publicly addressed.

                               Here is the reason why: Once a person looks at an object
                            and defines it according to their own personal observation, it
                            (in a sense) becomes their "own" experience. For example,
                            words, speech and written texts must yield to an individual
                            interpretation for meaning. So who or what is ultimately going
                            to address all of the world's problems? Be they of the nature
                            of Church, of State, Individual, or Corporation?

                               IMO we can all look at the same text, the same words,
                            the same speech. However, what is really the same in this
                            context? Are we really all having the same experiences of
                            every single thing? How can an object (be it a word, a book
                            or a person) transfer the inner meanings and/or aspects as
                            understood by the author? Are these objects not symbols
                            at best? Symbols and shapes that we might all be able to
                            see and/or duplicate to some extent, but the meanings of
                            which become individual experiences that can differ from
                            one individual to the next?

                               In other words, if objects are symbolic representations
                            at best and not every single observer will automatically
                            have the same understanding or experience of them, how
                            can this be addressed? In other words, what could even
                            address every single person and their own experiences
                            unless it were "something" shared in common by all?
                            Some type of medium which can unite outer and inner
                            for all? What is that medium? The Internet? Perhaps it
                            IS the "Internet" - but one that includes both inner and
                            outer experiences together? Do you know of another
                            type of medium?

                               A week or two ago I got a phone call from a woman who
                            asked me if I believed there was a form of government that
                            could solve all of the worlds problems. I basically said that
                            yes I do, and I believed this form of government was/is not
                            something that exists "outside" of every single individual.

                               Later I asked if the person were a Jehovah's Witness (as
                            I suspected), and they said that they were. I did not mention
                            the name (nor was I asked for the name) of my religion, but
                            we had a pleasant conversation that seemed to take place
                            on common ground. I thanked them, and they thanked me
                            for the sharing of our conversation. I couldn't say wether we
                            even had any problems in our conversation. At least, both
                            of us agreed about much of what got shared. However, in
                            a way, I imagine that we did not succeed at solving all of the
                            world's problems. But by the same token, we probably did
                            not add very much to them either. At least, for ourselves.

                               I thought that you brought up some good points, and I
                            can respond to what you said according to my opinion.
                            At the same time I am not expecting that every other
                            person will agree with it. Because if they don't agree and
                            I try to force my opinion on them, I will probably end up
                            like every other person who tried (but failed) to conquer
                            and/or rule the world.

                            Etznab


                          • Non ekster
                            This is a long post that fits into the category of fooling yourself. I feel I must be blunt. Meandering verbage really is the same as saying nothing and is an
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jan 8, 2007
                              This is a long post that fits into the category of fooling yourself. I
                              feel I must be blunt. Meandering verbage really is the same as saying
                              nothing and is an attempt to ignore the fact that eckankar is a SCAM.
                              I am waiting for your point on yur time line when yu wake up and
                              realize this fact. ; )

                              Nonekster

                              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
                              >
                              > In a message dated 1/8/07 1:18:54 PM Central Standard Time,
                              > prometheus_973@... writes:
                              >
                              > <snip>
                              >
                              > > > HK: "Early church history teaches about the dangers to an
                              > > > organization when its members ESTEEM SELF-SERVING BEHAVIOR
                              > > > Above Service to Others. The Catholic Church before the
                              > > > Prostestant Reformation had many areas of corruption. The clergy
                              > > > were too often self-serving. That rankled a great number of
                              > > > Catholics. Yet, overall, the church was serving the spiritual
                              > > > needs of its parishioners.
                              > > >
                              > > > It was its Unaddressed Problems, though, that would lead to
                              > > > serious trouble."
                              > >
                              > > ### Is it the "unaddressed problems" of Klemp's that is causing
                              > > trouble for ECKANKAR and HK Not Taking Ownership For This,
                              > > or the conflicting information created by Twitchell for his scam?
                              >
                              > Prometheus,
                              >
                              > Do you suppose all of the unaddressed problems could be
                              > addressed? I know the possibility sounds encouraging, even
                              > to me, but I don't imagine that every single problem could or
                              > even should be publicly addressed.
                              >
                              > Here is the reason why: Once a person looks at an object
                              > and defines it according to their own personal observation, it
                              > (in a sense) becomes their "own" experience. For example,
                              > words, speech and written texts must yield to an individual
                              > interpretation for meaning. So who or what is ultimately going
                              > to address all of the world's problems? Be they of the nature
                              > of Church, of State, Individual, or Corporation?
                              >
                              > IMO we can all look at the same text, the same words,
                              > the same speech. However, what is really the same in this
                              > context? Are we really all having the same experiences of
                              > every single thing? How can an object (be it a word, a book
                              > or a person) transfer the inner meanings and/or aspects as
                              > understood by the author? Are these objects not symbols
                              > at best? Symbols and shapes that we might all be able to
                              > see and/or duplicate to some extent, but the meanings of
                              > which become individual experiences that can differ from
                              > one individual to the next?
                              >
                              > In other words, if objects are symbolic representations
                              > at best and not every single observer will automatically
                              > have the same understanding or experience of them, how
                              > can this be addressed? In other words, what could even
                              > address every single person and their own experiences
                              > unless it were "something" shared in common by all?
                              > Some type of medium which can unite outer and inner
                              > for all? What is that medium? The Internet? Perhaps it
                              > IS the "Internet" - but one that includes both inner and
                              > outer experiences together? Do you know of another
                              > type of medium?
                              >
                              > A week or two ago I got a phone call from a woman who
                              > asked me if I believed there was a form of government that
                              > could solve all of the worlds problems. I basically said that
                              > yes I do, and I believed this form of government was/is not
                              > something that exists "outside" of every single individual.
                              >
                              > Later I asked if the person were a Jehovah's Witness (as
                              > I suspected), and they said that they were. I did not mention
                              > the name (nor was I asked for the name) of my religion, but
                              > we had a pleasant conversation that seemed to take place
                              > on common ground. I thanked them, and they thanked me
                              > for the sharing of our conversation. I couldn't say wether we
                              > even had any problems in our conversation. At least, both
                              > of us agreed about much of what got shared. However, in
                              > a way, I imagine that we did not succeed at solving all of the
                              > world's problems. But by the same token, we probably did
                              > not add very much to them either. At least, for ourselves.
                              >
                              > I thought that you brought up some good points, and I
                              > can respond to what you said according to my opinion.
                              > At the same time I am not expecting that every other
                              > person will agree with it. Because if they don't agree and
                              > I try to force my opinion on them, I will probably end up
                              > like every other person who tried (but failed) to conquer
                              > and/or rule the world.
                              >
                              > Etznab
                              >
                            • ctecvie
                              ... *** Me, too, I must say! :) I think you are a decent guy, Etznab, but I have difficulties to understand why you are still clinging so much to eckankar -
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jan 8, 2007
                                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Non ekster"
                                <eckchains@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > This is a long post that fits into the category of fooling yourself. I
                                > feel I must be blunt. Meandering verbage really is the same as saying
                                > nothing and is an attempt to ignore the fact that eckankar is a SCAM.
                                > I am waiting for your point on yur time line when yu wake up and
                                > realize this fact. ; )

                                *** Me, too, I must say! :) I think you are a decent guy, Etznab, but I
                                have difficulties to understand why you are still clinging so much to
                                eckankar - with all the research you have done about it, you know that
                                it is a scam. You don't need any construct (be it eckankar, HCS or
                                whatever) to lead a spiritual life. And I think you must know that,
                                too.
                                Ingrid
                              • prometheus_973
                                Hi All, I thought I d bring this back up for all those ECK Lower Initiates to see what they re missing. According to Klemp they can t handle the higher
                                Message 15 of 19 , Feb 22, 2007
                                  Hi All,
                                  I thought I'd bring this back up for all those ECK Lower Initiates to
                                  see what they're missing. According to Klemp they can't handle the
                                  higher vibrations coming from the H.I. Letter or from those H.I.
                                  Only books, etc. However, didn't Klemp recently say that everything
                                  spoken or written was only of the 4th Mental Plane?

                                  HK: "Written words derive from a place no higher than the Mental Plane,
                                  because that is the source of the alphabet, symbols, and thought. The
                                  Essence of God, the ECK, has at that point just made Its incursion into
                                  the realm of negativity from the indescrible worlds of God above."
                                  [The Mystic World, 12/2006, Ask the Master #1]

                                  So, why aren't Lower Initiate Chelas allowed to read about 'H.I. foxes,'
                                  and, also, to read that Klemp sees them as 'hens' instead of eaglets!

                                  Klemp is now asking H.I.s to squeal on each other and follow the
                                  rumors to ferret out the Kal-Eck 'foxes' raiding the lower initiate
                                  'henhouse.'

                                  It seems that HK is just giving more lip service to what's wrong with
                                  the org. How can H.I.s believe anything HK says when in the 12/2005 H.I.
                                  Letter (one year ago) he talked of Not Using IFs, ANDs, and BUTs when
                                  talking to one another, but it was okay to use these words with the public.
                                  It seems Kant had this IF, AND, BUT opinion of the intent behind the word
                                  usage and HK thought Kant had made a good point and, therefore,
                                  instructed his H.I.s to communicate better by saying what they mean rather
                                  than negating or putting limits on what they have said with a BUT, or not
                                  being direct by using IF. Now just read anything that Klemp has written in
                                  the past year (including this 12/2006 H.I. Letter) and count the IFs and
                                  especially the BUTs! BTW-AND is okay because it's a connector - LOL!

                                  Therefore, is it any wonder that H.I.s are confused. When Klemp calls
                                  some Eckists 'losers' or is making those negative, unloving, and rude
                                  comments about that 'fill-in' Third Temporary Postal Clerk back in the
                                  09/2003 H.I. Letter he is laying a foundation of negativity, unfriendliness,
                                  and exclusion toward others. Klemp is a narcissist. Just read the article
                                  on NPD and you will not only see him, but other hi-profile and vain ECKists
                                  as well.

                                  ***************************************************************************

                                  HK: "Dear Brothers of the Leaf,

                                  There is a fox outside the henhouse, and it bears watching.

                                  You are a guardian of the henhouse, helping your RESA in making sure the ECK
                                  chelas in your area receive fair treatment from those who are above them in
                                  some service to ECK."
                                  >
                                  [ME]: The RESAs are part of the problem. They turn a blind eye to the Kal
                                  like behaviors of those in their hierarchy. Many RESAs are simply inexperienced
                                  administrators without a clue as to who should be trusted and who shouldn't.
                                  >
                                  HK: "These lovers of truth and the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master deserve fair
                                  treatment. Most ECK leaders show them that courtesy. However, a few do not.

                                  Much of the ECK work is borne by chelas who do so out of pure love. There is
                                  no remuneration involved. Their spiritual blessings are great, far greater
                                  than receiving a pot of gold filled to the brim. So they represent love."
                                  >
                                  [ME]: The pride of the Higher initiations and the power of having a high 'settler'
                                  position and having one's Eckie story mentioned or put into print is also
                                  part of the "remuneration" for many Eckists.
                                  >
                                  HK: "The fox stands for power. He is ruthless and sees a house full of chicken
                                  dinners. He feeds on the weak and helpless, on those who cannot defend
                                  themselves.

                                  Now, what kind of guardian would it be who stood by and let the fox, a power
                                  seeker, satisfy his pleasure?

                                  Someone who knows what is going on, is in a position to do something about
                                  it, BUT purposely shuts his eyes to the problem--out of fear, perhaps, of
                                  offending the perpetrator--is an accomplice of the fox. How could he not be?"
                                  >
                                  [ME]: The power seeker is a common occurance in Eckankar/religion. Can't the
                                  owner of HU-Chat take Cher's moderator position away from her and boot her?
                                  Or, is she afraid to do so. How about Cher's RESA? Why hasn't something been
                                  done? The LEM/Mahanta wants to know why not!
                                  >
                                  HK: "I was thinking about the constant struggle that exists between love and
                                  power, even among ECKists. You look at such people with their goose-
                                  stepping tactics and you wonder about them. Sometimes they almost seem to
                                  be schizophrenic, with opposing or antagonistic sides.

                                  On one hand, they are ever so loving and helpful. BUT on the other, they are
                                  tromping on the rights of others with big, muddy boots. Yet they can't see
                                  themselves."
                                  >
                                  [ME]: Actually, this is not all that uncommon within the ranks of the Kal-Eck
                                  Higher Initiates. There are many that are well established within 6th and 7th
                                  circles of initiation. And, we can also include 8ths, 9ths, and a 14th!
                                  >
                                  HK: "Don't we all find it easier to spot a blemish in another instead of
                                  ourselves? Behind the big boots is the ego. It is out of control and can thus
                                  do a great deal of harm. These goose-stepping people love power, not love.
                                  It is disheartening to see them. They intrude into the domain of others. Deep
                                  within a file cabinet they come across a vague rule that, if taken out of
                                  context, says the others are not in compliance with it."
                                  >
                                  [ME]: I remember that Third 'fill-in' Postal Clerk whose blemishes HK pointed
                                  out. Klemp got his big muddy boots out to tromp on him didn't he! See, this
                                  is why Eckankar doesn't work! It's flawed from the top down and always has
                                  been!
                                  >
                                  HK: "This steps on people lower in the pecking order, who must keep silent."
                                  >
                                  [ME]: Yes, people must keep silent if they want that next initiation or that
                                  coveted position in the RESA hierarchy... maybe it's a RESA position! See,
                                  Klemp knows how the "pecking order" game is played... he once did it too!
                                  >
                                  HK: "Long ago, as a Vahana in the field, I happened into a neighboring
                                  Mahdis's area to give an introductory lecture. This was in the old days, when
                                  the rules were not always drafted very well. That Mahdis complained to the
                                  ECK Office. So I found that the better part of valor was discretion, and thus
                                  wisely kept out of the area. What struct me was that the area wasn't growing!
                                  This Mahdisused up so much energy protecting her turf that she had neither
                                  the time nor energy to do an adequate job of ECK Vahana work in her very
                                  populous area. It was sad."
                                  >
                                  [ME]: Maybe the Mahdis saw Klemp as a "fox."
                                  >
                                  HK: "She would not do it and acted like a bucket of cold water when others
                                  did show initiative. One such person can do so much damage to an
                                  organization, especially to one like ECKANKAR, because it places a lot of faith
                                  in volunteers and their love for the Master.

                                  These foxes--power eaters--are extremely stubborn in their determination
                                  to dominate others. IF they could only see themselves. Their motto:
                                  'My way or the highway.'
                                  >
                                  [ME]: Isn't that how Klemp dealt with Ford and Graham. It was HK's way or the
                                  highway! This is very two-faced of Harold. HK is stubborn too!
                                  >
                                  HK: "Other approaches they favor include becoming overly familiar with an
                                  intended victim. Then they take control of the other's life. The goose-stepper,
                                  the fox, is thus guilty of violating the ECK precept of allowing others to have
                                  their freedom.

                                  Such a person thinks that his ego is under control as much as that of another."
                                  >
                                  [ME]: This is true of HK as well. Just look at how Eckists are promoted. One has
                                  to be in a clique, fly under the radar, and keep silent. Also, there's keeping the
                                  paid membership on-going and taking the trainings and doing the volunteer
                                  thing to stay in the Eck spotlight.
                                  >
                                  HK: "He licks the boots of those above him in the hierarchy and expects those
                                  below him to lick his. He is truly schizophrenic. He and his like are few in
                                  number, BUT they do so much damage to the ECK missionary effort. They are
                                  like an atomic bomb exploding over a city."
                                  >
                                  [ME]: Boot licking and ass kissing too! HK did plenty in his day and yet never
                                  saw fit to change things in all these years as LEM. So why doesn't Klemp
                                  have more oversight? There should be someone at the ESC that Eck Leaders
                                  can call and remain anonymous or immune from repercussions. In many cases
                                  the RESA is a big part of the problem, especially, if you're complaining about
                                  their friend! Another thing, most Eckists will remain silent about the negativity
                                  they see because they are obeying the Law of Silence and are refraining from
                                  spreading negativity... besides it's all Karmic and the Inner Master knows
                                  everything... right! Catch-22 Klempster!
                                  >
                                  HK: "You may get reports of a fox operating in a Satsang class, as someone in
                                  charge of ECK intro talks, or in other important ECK activities. Keep your
                                  eyes and ears open. Find out IF anything is behind the rumors, and inform
                                  the local ECK leadership or the RESA.

                                  Keep in mind that ECK chelas are precious Souls. They deserve love and
                                  respect. They're serving ECK out of love, not for a pot of gold. Sweep the way
                                  clear of a fox. Allow the ECK chelas to serve. Let them unfold, so that their
                                  spiritual reward can be greater than any pot of gold. Harold"
                                  >
                                  [ME] The only "spiritual reward" that Eck Leaders have are their GOLD LEAVES
                                  and a bucket full of promises. H.I.s should look around and see all of the
                                  unqualified leaders that share their initiation circle or a higher circle. Why?
                                  Because Higher Initiation is not related to Higher Consciousness. The by-
                                  product of higher consciousness is not an initiation number and this is why
                                  many Eckists discount the importance of the upper high initiations! Besides,
                                  there's that 7th initiation ceiling for 99.999% of Eckists. The RESA position is
                                  just another badge to wear and does not bring with it higher consciousness
                                  either! It's all just more and more illusion and religious dogma!
                                  >
                                  Prometheus
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