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Living Echo vs. Living God

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  • makiztor
    This post (and one to follow) are not an argument for Eckankar Inc. They are an argument for what I feel to be the right of every person. The right to the Path
    Message 1 of 5 , Oct 31, 2006
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      This post (and one to follow) are not an argument for Eckankar
      Inc. They are an argument for what I feel to be the right of every
      person. The right to the Path to God! Whether the path is called
      Eckankar or not. I leave it to the discretion of E.S.A. whether or
      not to post them here. Between this and the TruthSeeker B.B., my hope
      is that one or both can include them.

      Living Echo vs. Living God

         Underlying every word and action (Creation) is a motive (Creator)
      most directly responsible. And when scanning through the annals to
      history, I believe it is important to keep this in mind. Here are a
      couple of personal quotes to sum up my research about history and the
      history of words:

      *********

      Although lingering historic "melodies" do remain, the majority of
      our ancient history appears to be lost, codified, or somehow
      overwritten at the expense of depriving future generations an
      accurate unbiased account. Much of the world's ancient knowledge
      still remains hidden [occult], and this unfortunate subjugation of
      knowledge to ignorance has built a nesting place for every manner of
      social chaos.

      Nothing influences people more, perhaps, than the defined meanings
      assigned to every word. Change the meanings to words, and you
      literally change history - both a blessing and a curse. A blessing,
      because change can help to reanimate the passively pathetic petrified
      minds of those who imbibed once too often the old adage: "Nobody
      really knows." A curse, because altering the truth can veil the
      historical record of cause and effect responsible for the evolution
      of a particular creation, and leave a vacuum of mystery [or
      ignorance] in its place. Into that vacuum can drift all manner of
      imagination, both good and bad, regarding human history.

      *********

         The classic forms of "Trinity" within various religious teachings
      appear to give three fundamental elements. A creator (God), a
      sustainer (creation), and a destroyer (change). In the Western World
      religious teachings we find the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit -
      but not necessarily by those names or in that order. For example:
      God, Spirit, and Master. The latter sentence appears to accord better
      with Christianity (and even with Eckankar)in some respects after you
      consider that the "WORD" or "Sound" is what directly "issues" from
      God before All (other) Things are created (including human bodies).
      This paradigm might even appear to suggest that "SOUND" is what
      exists as the second element to the "Trinity" - making it
      the "Sustainer". And if you consider that any Living Teacher with a
      physical form is subject to change, this might appear to support the
      idea of Living Master as the third element: "Changer", "Transformer",
      or "Destroyer" (at least in the sense of how the WORD or SOUND will
      appear to manifest in the "Lower" worlds of time and space. I will
      give five quotes at the end of this post (from the Shariyat-Ki-
      Sugmad) that appear to bear this out - to some extent, at least.

      Because I don't want to make this post too long that people might
      suffer to read it, I will end with five paragraphs from the Eckankar
      Bible, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, Book One, as it appears (at least to
      me) in a trivial way to touch on the subject of "Trinity". After
      contemplating this post, I should wonder if it might later become a
      topic for further discussion and comment. Especially the very last
      sentence, and the words "possesses the same qualities as the Divine
      One in Its second aspect ... as far as they can be manifested within
      the limitations of human nature within a definate point of history."

      *********
         The three aspects of the Sugmad are different from the Trinity of
      Christianity and Hinduism, and also different from the Trikaya of
      Buddhism, since it covers all things in life. The triple aspects are
      the three bodies of the Mahanta.

         First there is the absolute primordial, the eternal Mahanta,
      called the clear Voice of God, which dwells in the heart of the Ocean
      of Love and Mercy. There is no way to compare this with anything in
      Christianity, Hinduism, or Buddhism.

         Second is the body of glory; the ECK, the Cosmic Spirit, the Sound
      Current which is in all life, giving existence to all things.

         Third is the body of manifestation, the transformation, the
      historical Mahanta. This is the Living ECK Master in every age, who
      is the Eternal One, the bodily manifestation of the Sugmad.

         The historical Mahanta is the bodily manifestation of the eternal
      Mahanta and is the aspect in which the Divine One becomes incarnate
      in human form. The historical Mahanta possesses the same qualities as
      the Divine One in Its second aspect, and manifests them as far as
      they can be manifested within the limitations of human nature within
      a definate point of history.

      [Based on: The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, Book One (Third Printing 1997), p.
      33]

      Etznab
    • makiztor
         Can t say how well (according to the experience of others) that I did at writing this post, but the following gives a rendition of what Living Echo vs.
      Message 2 of 5 , Oct 31, 2006
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           Can't say how well (according to the experience of others) that I
        did at writing this post, but the following gives a rendition of what
        Living Echo vs. Living God means to me. And some people could say
        (with regard to this post). But Hey! He's responding to his SELF! And
        that would be exactly right.

           Before it appeared in Eckankar books by Paul Twitchell, during and
        subsequent to the early 1960s. Before it appeared in the book: The
        Path of the Masters, by Julian Johnson published in 1939. It was
        already an established fact that a number of people throughout
        recorded world history were acquainted with "The Path" to becoming a
        co-worker with God! In plain English, there were (and are today)
        three basic steps involved: A Living Master, the Sound Current, and
        Spiritual Liberation in this lifetime. The exact reverse order of
        what I earlier described about the trivia of "Trinity" in world
        religions!

           The "core" ingredients to this path are not complicated. The
        purpose of a Living Master (according to Eckankar: the historical
        third aspect and/or body of the "Mahanta" referenced in the Shariyat-
        Ki-Sugmad, Book One) is to connect a person with the second aspect,
        with Spirit, or the Sound of God. A person in a physical body "HEARS"
        about the qualities of this Sound Current from another person in a
        physical body. We call this the Art of Teaching. People share with
        others what they have learned and have come to know. People who share
        what they have learned and have come to know by experience are
        classified as teachers, exibiting various levels of mastership.
        Basically, a "Living (Spiritual) Master" is one who can share what
        they know about the qualities of Spirit or, the Sound Current (the
        second step toward Spiritual Liberation) "... as far as they (the
        qualities) can be manifested within the limitations of human nature
        within a definate point of history." The various Living (Spiritual,
        or Eck, etc.) Masters have learned about the Sound Current from a
        person or persons before them. Almost certainly, they learned from
        One who served as a Living "Spiritual Master" to them.

           After connecting with the Sound Current (Spirit, Eck, etc.) via
        experience, the path proceeds (or leads into) Spiritual Liberation in
        this lifetime by way of Self and God realization. This third step is
        something that any individual comes to learn by experience for
        themself, because any teacher can give instructions, but the student
        has to grasp, experience, and/or become adept at traveling the path
        to God.

           After these three steps are accomplished, a person becomes a
        Living (Spiritual) Master his/her Self who is able (to an extent,
        example: "... as far as they (the qualities of Spirit) can be
        manifested within the limitations of human nature within a definate
        point of history.") to instruct others about the Sound Current. Let
        us not confuse or attribute this ancient path to God with the
        teachings (about same) scattered throughout various world religions
        today. Teachings and outer instructions are simply directions left
        behind to history, like a road or footpath left behind by the
        experienced traveler!

        My earlier post (Living Echo vs. Living God) included the following
        quote:

           The historical Mahanta is the bodily manifestation of the
        eternal Mahanta and is the aspect in which the Divine One becomes
        incarnate in human form. The historical Mahanta possesses the same
        qualities as the Divine One in Its second aspect, and manifests them
        as far as they can be manifested within the limitations of human
        nature within a definate point of history.
        [Based on: The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, Book One (Third Printing 1997), p.
        33]

           Granted, this quote may not mean very much to those unfamilar with
        Eckankar terminology. And "Eckankar" is simply what, according to the
        spiritual leader of same (2006) means, "Co-worker with God". It is a
        word that appeared in the early 1960s when Paul Twitchell began to
        write about what he had learned and what he had come to know about
        the path to God. You could even say that he "coined" the word and
        transformed the meaning of "Co-worker with God" by attributing it to
        his own definition and understanding of same. In other words,
        according to his experience. But regardless of what Paul Twitchell or
        Julian Johnson learned from others before them, it is the spiritual
        student who experiences the Sound Current, becomes liberated in this
        lifetime, and becomes the Co-worker with God his/her Self!

           Paul Twitchell and Julian Johnson both died before all of their
        books were completed and/or published. Much of what those books
        contained were the very words of other people before them. As are
        most religions in existence today the words of other people
        (translated, transcribed, recorded, captured, plagarized, and
        interpreted word for word - correct meanings or not) who talked about
        them at some time in the past. These "historical medodies" are
        NOT "identical" to the second step toward spiritual liberation.
        Perhaps "... within the limitations of human nature within a
        definate point of history.", but actually connecting and/or
        experiencing the Sound Current for oneself is a step that transcends
        the limititations of human nature and (recorded - correctly or not)
        history!

           The Spirit (or Sound) of God is what links Heaven and Earth. It is
        the stairway to Heaven that requires a person to follow that path to
        spiritual liberation by their OWN volition and EXPERIENCE. Whatever
        this truly means, it is something that must HAPPEN between the
        traveler and the path that they are traveling. Impefect renditions of
        the spiritual path according to outward impressions and/or
        experiences of others are of no consequence for one who acquires
        spiritual liberation for his/her Self! Especially not for one who
        comes to Master his/her Self. Not unless you want to discard and
        discredit all of what you have come to learn by experience. Not
        unless you want to sacrifice that experience or relpace it with
        another.

           The path that you travel to God, that path is something that you
        OWN! That path is YOUR experience of Spirit and what it is causing to
        happening with YOU! It is not what is happening to you according to
        others. It is not what is happening to you according to half a
        hundred spiritual paths and religions. It is exactly the path to God
        that you have come by and achieved in your own way and in your own
        time! Here the Echo of God happens to impress, effect, heal, and
        liberate YOU! And when you follow that Echo of God back to its
        origin, it will be YOU (not anyone else) who knows what it means to
        be "Living" God.

           There is no human element or agency that can copy what is the
        experience and path to God owned by the freedom of Spirit in you.
        None can copy, as if to steal away, what is your life, what is your
        liberty, and what is your pursuit of the happiness available to YOU!
        It cannot be taken away, it cannot be bought and sold, it cannot be
        anything but what it is to the Living Spirit of God with YOU. Even
        more than that, Spiritual Liberation in this lifetime is NOT the
        property of material human nature or the ordinances imposed on this
        speck of a planet called Earth. Matter and human nature can no more
        imprison Spirit than a block of stone can imprison Soul. Words may be
        written (as if) in stone yes, but their meaning LIVES with You! Their
        meaning is the living action, the Living Spirit of God with YOU!

           The Master, the Sound Current, and Spiritual Liberation in this
        Lifetime! Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness! The Path to
        God is our unalienable Right!

        Etznab
      • mishmisha9
        Hi, Etznab! Would you mind explaining what you mean by Living Echo and Living God--and how they differ? Also, is it possible that there is no living
        Message 3 of 5 , Oct 31, 2006
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          Hi, Etznab!

          Would you mind explaining what you mean by Living Echo and Living
          God--and how they differ?

          Also, is it possible that there is no living personification of God--
          and those who claim to be a L.E.M. or some other savior are perhaps
          just the originators or the perpetuators of the man-made religions
          we have today?

          Have you looked at the Eckankar Lexicon for the muliple definitions
          of trinity? If you do a search here on ESA, I think you might find
          some information on it.

          I am interested in looking at the early history of man and the cave
          paintings that seem to depict a first indicator in a belief in God.
          Of course, much of religion did grow out of fear--fear of nature's
          elements and death, stemming from a lack of scientific or logical
          explanations for natural events, etc. and out of that the
          worshipping of the "gods" began. Progressively, some men (leaders)
          grew in power by portraying themselves as god or godly, and began
          controlling and manipulating the masses.

          I found Sam Harris' book "The End of Faith" quite good in explaining
          how man uses religion to control others.

          Mish



          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "makiztor"
          <etznab@...> wrote:

          This post (and one to follow) are not an argument for Eckankar
          Inc. They are an argument for what I feel to be the right of every
          person. The right to the Path to God! Whether the path is called
          Eckankar or not. I leave it to the discretion of E.S.A. whether or
          not to post them here. Between this and the TruthSeeker B.B., my
          hope is that one or both can include them.

          Living Echo vs. Living God

          Underlying every word and action (Creation) is a motive (Creator)
          most directly responsible. And when scanning through the annals to
          history, I believe it is important to keep this in mind. Here are a
          couple of personal quotes to sum up my research about history and
          the history of words:

          *********

          Although lingering historic "melodies" do remain, the majority of
          our ancient history appears to be lost, codified, or somehow
          overwritten at the expense of depriving future generations an
          accurate unbiased account. Much of the world's ancient knowledge
          still remains hidden [occult], and this unfortunate subjugation of
          knowledge to ignorance has built a nesting place for every manner of
          social chaos.

          Nothing influences people more, perhaps, than the defined meanings
          assigned to every word. Change the meanings to words, and you
          literally change history - both a blessing and a curse. A blessing,
          because change can help to reanimate the passively pathetic
          petrified minds of those who imbibed once too often the old
          adage: "Nobody really knows." A curse, because altering the truth
          can veil the historical record of cause and effect responsible for
          the evolution of a particular creation, and leave a vacuum of
          mystery [or ignorance] in its place. Into that vacuum can drift all
          manner of imagination, both good and bad, regarding human history.

          *********

          The classic forms of "Trinity" within various religious teachings
          appear to give three fundamental elements. A creator (God), a
          sustainer (creation), and a destroyer (change). In the Western World
          religious teachings we find the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit -
          but not necessarily by those names or in that order. For example:
          God, Spirit, and Master. The latter sentence appears to accord
          better with Christianity (and even with Eckankar)in some respects
          after you consider that the "WORD" or "Sound" is what
          directly "issues" from God before All (other) Things are created
          (including human bodies). This paradigm might even appear to suggest
          that "SOUND" is what exists as the second element to the "Trinity" -
          making it the "Sustainer". And if you consider that any Living
          Teacher with a physical form is subject to change, this might appear
          to support the idea of Living Master as the third
          element: "Changer", "Transformer", or "Destroyer" (at least in the
          sense of how the WORD or SOUND will appear to manifest in
          the "Lower" worlds of time and space. I will give five quotes at the
          end of this post (from the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad) that appear to bear
          this out - to some extent, at least.

          Because I don't want to make this post too long that people might
          suffer to read it, I will end with five paragraphs from the Eckankar
          Bible, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, Book One, as it appears (at least to
          me) in a trivial way to touch on the subject of "Trinity". After
          contemplating this post, I should wonder if it might later become a
          topic for further discussion and comment. Especially the very last
          sentence, and the words "possesses the same qualities as the Divine
          One in Its second aspect ... as far as they can be manifested within
          the limitations of human nature within a definate point of history."

          *********
          The three aspects of the Sugmad are different from the Trinity of
          Christianity and Hinduism, and also different from the Trikaya of
          Buddhism, since it covers all things in life. The triple aspects are
          the three bodies of the Mahanta.

          First there is the absolute primordial, the eternal Mahanta,
          called the clear Voice of God, which dwells in the heart of the
          Ocean of Love and Mercy. There is no way to compare this with
          anything in Christianity, Hinduism, or Buddhism.

          Second is the body of glory; the ECK, the Cosmic Spirit, the Sound
          Current which is in all life, giving existence to all things.

          Third is the body of manifestation, the transformation, the
          historical Mahanta. This is the Living ECK Master in every age, who
          is the Eternal One, the bodily manifestation of the Sugmad.

          The historical Mahanta is the bodily manifestation of the eternal
          Mahanta and is the aspect in which the Divine One becomes incarnate
          in human form. The historical Mahanta possesses the same qualities
          as the Divine One in Its second aspect, and manifests them as far as
          they can be manifested within the limitations of human nature within
          a definate point of history.

          [Based on: The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, Book One (Third Printing 1997),
          p. 33]

          Etznab
          >
        • prometheus_973
          Hi Etznab, I was wondering if you could give some facts and proof and a timeline that The Path of becoming a Co-worker with God existed prior to the 1939
          Message 4 of 5 , Oct 31, 2006
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            Hi Etznab,
            I was wondering if you could give some facts and proof and a
            timeline that "The Path" of becoming a Co-worker "with" God existed
            prior to the 1939 copyright of The Path of the Masters and of the
            Eckankar teachings (1965). What was this religion called... The
            Path? Where and when were there references to becoming a "Co-
            worker?" Also, was this always referred to as "with" God
            versus "for" or "under" God? Can you also point out the differences
            between The Living Master of the Radhasoami religion and the Living
            Master of the Eckankar religion or is it just a matter of semantics
            and dogma? What do you think about the plagiarisms of Twitchell
            (from The Path of the Masters) that are found in his Shariyats? And
            yes, I too would like to hear what the "Living Echo" is vs.
            the "Living God," and where does Soul fit in? This is an interesting
            subject. Thanks!

            Prometheus


            etznab wrote:
            [snip]
            ... the following gives a rendition of what Living Echo vs. Living
            God means to me...

            Before it appeared in Eckankar books by Paul Twitchell, during and
            subsequent to the early 1960s.

            Before it appeared in the book: The Path of the Masters, by Julian
            Johnson published in 1939. It was already an established fact that a
            number of people throughout recorded world history were acquainted
            with "The Path" to becoming a co-worker with God!

            In plain English, there were (and are today) three basic steps
            involved: A Living Master, the Sound Current, and Spiritual
            Liberation in this lifetime. The exact reverse order of what I
            earlier described about the trivia of "Trinity" in world religions!
          • skardicus
            ... I read a series of books - the first being written in the late 1800s called (long name)The Life and Teachings of the Masters of the Far East. After having
            Message 5 of 5 , Nov 3, 2006
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              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
              <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
              >

              I read a series of books - the first being written in the late 1800s
              called (long name)The Life and Teachings of the Masters of the Far East.

              After having read that I finally REALLY got the plagerism factor of
              Paul's invento-religion.

              Skard
              > Hi Etznab,
              > I was wondering if you could give some facts and proof and a
              > timeline that "The Path" of becoming a Co-worker "with" God existed
              > prior to the 1939 copyright of The Path of the Masters and of the
              > Eckankar teachings (1965). What was this religion called... The
              > Path? Where and when were there references to becoming a "Co-
              > worker?" Also, was this always referred to as "with" God
              > versus "for" or "under" God? Can you also point out the differences
              > between The Living Master of the Radhasoami religion and the Living
              > Master of the Eckankar religion or is it just a matter of semantics
              > and dogma? What do you think about the plagiarisms of Twitchell
              > (from The Path of the Masters) that are found in his Shariyats? And
              > yes, I too would like to hear what the "Living Echo" is vs.
              > the "Living God," and where does Soul fit in? This is an interesting
              > subject. Thanks!
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
              >
              > etznab wrote:
              > [snip]
              > ... the following gives a rendition of what Living Echo vs. Living
              > God means to me...
              >
              > Before it appeared in Eckankar books by Paul Twitchell, during and
              > subsequent to the early 1960s.
              >
              > Before it appeared in the book: The Path of the Masters, by Julian
              > Johnson published in 1939. It was already an established fact that a
              > number of people throughout recorded world history were acquainted
              > with "The Path" to becoming a co-worker with God!
              >
              > In plain English, there were (and are today) three basic steps
              > involved: A Living Master, the Sound Current, and Spiritual
              > Liberation in this lifetime. The exact reverse order of what I
              > earlier described about the trivia of "Trinity" in world religions!
              >
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