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Reply to Ingrid and Mish (Mahanta & 4 Zoas)

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  • prometheus_973
    Hi Ingrid, Yes, I too thought, at one time, that it was I that had a problem in not seeing, and thinking that it was some sort of paradox. I assumed that it
    Message 1 of 3 , Mar 10, 2005
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      Hi Ingrid,

      Yes, I too thought, at one time, that it was I that had a problem in
      not "seeing," and thinking that it was some sort of paradox. I
      assumed that it was a lack of consciousness on my part that
      prevented me from understanding all of the contradicting and
      confusing eck material that I read. I thought that eventually the
      initiations would cure my confusion. However, my observations proved
      to me that higher consciousness was not usually visited upon higher
      initiates... including Harold Klemp.

      There is a book called "The Holy Science" by Swami Sri Yukteswar
      from the Self-Realization Fellowship and the copyright is 1949
      (Twitchell was associated with this group once). On the introduction
      page vi is the following quote:

      "*In 1894, when this book was written, Babaji gave the author the
      title 'Swami.' He was later formally initiated into the Swami Order
      by the Mahanta (monastery head) of Buddha Gaya, Bihar, and took the
      monastic name of Sri Yukteswar. He belonged to the Giri('mountain')
      branch of the Swami Order. (Publisher's Note)"

      So, as you can see this might be where Twitchell got the "Mahanta"
      title. At first I too thought Twitch revised the word mahatma where
      maha means "great" and atma means "soul." Except, you would think
      the spelling should be (if that were the case) Maha-atma.

      Hi Mish

      Okay, you want to know about the Four Zoas! Well, the Four Zoas
      apply to (mostly) the High Initiates of Eckankar. Sometimes they are
      broadly applied to all initiates and it is sometimes suggested that
      a Fourth Initiate start following the Four Zoas in order to be
      better prepared for the "consideration" for the Fifth Initiation
      (usually given in 15-18 years of continuous membership).

      Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad Book 2, Chapter 3, pages 283-284... "The four
      Zoas (laws) of Eckankar for the Mahdis, the initiate of the Fifth
      Circle, are:

      (1) The Mahdis shall not use alcohol, tobacco, or drugs; gamble; or
      be gluttonous in any way...

      (2) The Mahdis shall not speak with tongue of vanity or deceit or
      unhappiness, criticize the actions of others, blame others for wrong
      doings, quarrel, fight or inflict injury. He shall be at all times
      be respectful and courteous to his fellow man and show great
      compassion and happiness.

      (3) The Mahdis shall have humility, love, and freedom from all bonds
      of creeds. He shall be free from the laws of karma which snare him
      with boastfulness and vanity. He shall have love for all people and
      all creatures of the Sugmad.

      (4) The Mahdis must preach the message of ECK at all times, and
      prove to the world that he is the example of purity and happiness.
      He must show that the disciple in the human body must have a Master
      in the human body."

      It goes on some from there but this is basically it. Any questions
      or comments? In #2 it states that one shall "show great compassion
      and happiness." Too bad that it's just an 'act' or using the 'as if'
      principle instead of actually evolving to the state of awareness to
      demonstrate true compassion and happiness!

      Prometheus
    • ctecvie
      Hello Prometheus and Mish, ... in ... proved ... higher ... Exactly! When my husband became an HI, he always told me that there was nothing spiritual in that,
      Message 2 of 3 , Mar 11, 2005
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        Hello Prometheus and Mish,

        > Yes, I too thought, at one time, that it was I that had a problem
        in
        > not "seeing," and thinking that it was some sort of paradox. I
        > assumed that it was a lack of consciousness on my part that
        > prevented me from understanding all of the contradicting and
        > confusing eck material that I read. I thought that eventually the
        > initiations would cure my confusion. However, my observations
        proved
        > to me that higher consciousness was not usually visited upon
        higher
        > initiates... including Harold Klemp.

        Exactly! When my husband became an HI, he always told me that there
        was nothing spiritual in that, that there were much more rules in
        the outer. He always had expected that certain outer rules would be
        more and more superfluous as you should live them as a Mahdis. But
        this was not so. There were even more rules, and self realization
        was not mentioned any more - now they were talking about god
        realization. He became quite unhappy as an HI.
        >
        > There is a book called "The Holy Science" by Swami Sri Yukteswar
        > from the Self-Realization Fellowship and the copyright is 1949
        > (Twitchell was associated with this group once). On the
        introduction
        > page vi is the following quote:
        >
        > "*In 1894, when this book was written, Babaji gave the author the
        > title 'Swami.' He was later formally initiated into the Swami
        Order
        > by the Mahanta (monastery head) of Buddha Gaya, Bihar, and took
        the
        > monastic name of Sri Yukteswar. He belonged to the Giri
        ('mountain')
        > branch of the Swami Order. (Publisher's Note)"
        >
        > So, as you can see this might be where Twitchell got the "Mahanta"
        > title. At first I too thought Twitch revised the word mahatma
        where
        > maha means "great" and atma means "soul." Except, you would think
        > the spelling should be (if that were the case) Maha-atma.

        This is interesting, thank you for the quote! :-)

        > Okay, you want to know about the Four Zoas! Well, the Four Zoas
        > apply to (mostly) the High Initiates of Eckankar. Sometimes they
        are
        > broadly applied to all initiates and it is sometimes suggested
        that
        > a Fourth Initiate start following the Four Zoas in order to be
        > better prepared for the "consideration" for the Fifth Initiation
        > (usually given in 15-18 years of continuous membership).

        Yes, the computer tells them when to consider them for the
        fifth ... :-)
        >
        > Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad Book 2, Chapter 3, pages 283-284... "The four
        > Zoas (laws) of Eckankar for the Mahdis, the initiate of the Fifth
        > Circle, are:
        >
        > (1) The Mahdis shall not use alcohol, tobacco, or drugs; gamble;
        or
        > be gluttonous in any way...

        Well, I knew I would never reach the 5th, this is already too much
        for me! :-)
        >
        > (2) The Mahdis shall not speak with tongue of vanity or deceit or
        > unhappiness, criticize the actions of others, blame others for
        wrong
        > doings, quarrel, fight or inflict injury. He shall be at all times
        > be respectful and courteous to his fellow man and show great
        > compassion and happiness.

        Always happiness? So that would be a superhuman being, at least in
        my simple mind ... About not critizing others, that was mentioned a
        lot and it somehow disturbed me. Sometimes you have to show the
        limits to other people, don't you? If you don't, then how will those
        people ever get to know themselves? And how would I get to know
        myself when nobody ever gives me a negative feedback or reacts
        negatively to what I'm doing or saying? I prefer much more that they
        tell me directly what's wrong. But I guess this was established in
        Eckankar to hinder people to voice doubts about the teachings and to
        ask too many questions ...
        >
        > (3) The Mahdis shall have humility, love, and freedom from all
        bonds
        > of creeds. He shall be free from the laws of karma which snare him
        > with boastfulness and vanity. He shall have love for all people
        and
        > all creatures of the Sugmad.

        Free from the laws of karma - how can you be free of it when it's
        cause and effect? "Karma" is neutral - it just means that when you
        act, there is a reaction. For instance when I get paid for my work,
        that is karma, too!
        >
        > (4) The Mahdis must preach the message of ECK at all times, and
        > prove to the world that he is the example of purity and happiness.
        > He must show that the disciple in the human body must have a
        Master
        > in the human body."

        Preach the message of eck - well, I think it's more the message of
        Eckankar that is preached! :-)
        >
        > It goes on some from there but this is basically it. Any questions
        > or comments? In #2 it states that one shall "show great compassion
        > and happiness." Too bad that it's just an 'act' or using the 'as
        if'
        > principle instead of actually evolving to the state of awareness
        to
        > demonstrate true compassion and happiness!

        The as if-principle is another example about twisting a good
        practice per se. It's good when you set yourself a goal and while
        working on reaching it, imagine that you are already there. I think
        that this helps! But then you have to make the step in the physical
        to really get there! And that's what is missing in Eckankar - they
        stay with the "as if" because nobody teaches them how to really
        reach the goal.

        Ingrid
      • mishmisha9
        Hello, Prometheus! Thank you for taking the time to answer my question about the Four Zoas. It s interesting how we were being trained/programmed to be good.
        Message 3 of 3 , Mar 11, 2005
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          Hello, Prometheus!

          Thank you for taking the time to answer my question about the Four
          Zoas. It's interesting how we were being trained/programmed to
          be "good." Of course, it is better than being
          programmed to be "bad." But the thing is, when dictated to by such
          things as the Four Zoas, we are really giving up our personal
          freedom and our ability to grow. All these rules really were for
          control--obey, obey, obey! And do that vahanna work! Zoa Number 4
          was probably the main purpose of the first three!

          > Hi Mish
          >
          > Okay, you want to know about the Four Zoas! Well, the Four Zoas
          > apply to (mostly) the High Initiates of Eckankar. Sometimes they
          are
          > broadly applied to all initiates and it is sometimes suggested
          that
          > a Fourth Initiate start following the Four Zoas in order to be
          > better prepared for the "consideration" for the Fifth Initiation
          > (usually given in 15-18 years of continuous membership).
          >
          > Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad Book 2, Chapter 3, pages 283-284... "The four
          > Zoas (laws) of Eckankar for the Mahdis, the initiate of the Fifth
          > Circle, are:
          >
          > (1) The Mahdis shall not use alcohol, tobacco, or drugs; gamble;
          or
          > be gluttonous in any way...
          >

          I'm learning how to play poker at the moment--lots of fun! I don't
          gamble real money, so that is cool! Poker is a game of skill. I
          don't use tobacco or drugs beyond prescription medication which is
          limited. Alcohol--I enjoy wine on occasion. But how do you define
          glutttony? Isn't this a matter of opinion/judgement?


          > (2) The Mahdis shall not speak with tongue of vanity or deceit or
          > unhappiness, criticize the actions of others, blame others for
          wrong
          > doings, quarrel, fight or inflict injury. He shall be at all times
          > be respectful and courteous to his fellow man and show great
          > compassion and happiness.
          >

          This one sounds very Stepford wife-like!


          > (3) The Mahdis shall have humility, love, and freedom from all
          bonds
          > of creeds. He shall be free from the laws of karma which snare him
          > with boastfulness and vanity. He shall have love for all people
          and
          > all creatures of the Sugmad.
          >

          This seems to be impossible--to be free from all bonds of creeds--
          when you go onto #4 Zoa! As for having love for all people and
          creatures--maybe respect is a better approach which might then lead
          to love?


          > (4) The Mahdis must preach the message of ECK at all times, and
          > prove to the world that he is the example of purity and happiness.
          > He must show that the disciple in the human body must have a
          Master
          > in the human body."
          >

          Well, I don't have to worry about #4 any longer--nice to not have to
          preach!!! Too bad we didn't realize that we didn't have to prove
          anything like that, and lead others to this false teaching! : )

          > It goes on some from there but this is basically it. Any questions
          > or comments? In #2 it states that one shall "show great compassion
          > and happiness." Too bad that it's just an 'act' or using the 'as
          if'
          > principle instead of actually evolving to the state of awareness
          to
          > demonstrate true compassion and happiness!
          >
          > Prometheus

          Thanks for taking the time to list these. I'm sure others will like
          viewing these and perhaps make some comments, too.

          Mish
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