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Re: Comments on: "The Mystic World of Eckankar" June 2005

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  • prometheus_973
    Hi Leigh, Yes I can. However, I ll have to look through some books first in order to give the exact quote, book title, and page number. Harold himself mentions
    Message 1 of 7 , Jun 15, 2005
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      Hi Leigh,

      Yes I can. However, I'll have to look through some books first in
      order to give the exact quote, book title, and page number. Harold
      himself mentions what Marge had said to him. Harold and Darwin had
      been meeting now and then in a Sound Proof Dark Room where Harold
      worked when developing prints for Eckankar publications. This event
      with Marge took place after Darwin had given Harold the 9th
      Initiation in preparation for him to take over as L.E.M. in 1980.
      However, the power transfer was delayed for one year and Harold was
      disappointed and was acting impatient. Marge said to Harold
      something like, Why can't you just be happy with being an ECK Master?

      Prometheus



      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "l2eigh"
      <lgrif@m...> wrote:
      > HK was in a hurry to become the L.E.M.
      > > (via Darwin Gross) according to his first wife,
      >
      >
      > Hi Prometheus:
      > Could you expand on this a little bit?
    • prometheus_973
      Hey it s me again! I checked out the source of my comments and found it in HK s 1987 copyright of Soul Travelers of the Far Country. On page 142 Marge says
      Message 2 of 7 , Jun 15, 2005
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        Hey it's me again!

        I checked out the source of my comments and found it in HK's 1987
        copyright of "Soul Travelers of the Far Country." On page 142 Marge
        says to Harold, 'Don't worry'... 'You can always be an ECK Master,
        even if you can't be the Living ECK Master.' On page 143 Harold
        states that, "More than once my wife tried in vain to cheer me up by
        saying that it is a blessing to become an ECK Master; why not set my
        sights on that?" Harold also states that, "From then on I no longer
        spoke about my inner experiences, and at the time, this strained our
        marriage badly."

        Actually, I was wrong about the 9th Initiation date. Harold seems to
        jump around a lot and specific information is hard to find without
        extensive reading. However, HK received his 8th (Inner) Initiation
        on June 14, 1980 and the real outer one on January 27, 1981 (page
        140). On pages 186-187 HK claims to have received the 9th Initiation
        on July 22, 1981 (on the Inner), and states that, "Initiations in
        ECK beyond the 8th are only given on the inner planes." Did he
        confirm receiving the 9th on the inner with Darwin Gross the 972th
        L.E.M. and Mahanta? HK seems to leave out this little detail. Maybe
        Graham and Ford should have kept silent and just lived in the ECK
        delusion of inner mastership! Set 'em up boys!

        But, wait! I seem to remember that in the Master 4 Discourses lesson
        2 was titled, "The Ninth Initiation." Hmmmm. Well it states that it
        happens on the inner and that all of the 8ths (other planes included
        and from other parts of the physical universe) appear as either of
        the white or yellow race as they gather at this special spiritual
        retreat.

        "White signifies the active path of the extrovert" (they still have
        egos?). "Yellow stands for its counterpoint: the path of indirection
        (not passivity), the method of subtlety rather than easy-to-discern
        outer behavior." Wow, HK really had to go into detail for the
        indirect (nonreactive) yellow race thing! The HUK sound wave is sent
        to the candidate for the 9th Initiation. "In the last phase the
        Mahanta, the Living ECK Master confirms the initiation by some outer
        means. Oops, I guess Graham should have just kept silent and waited
        and waited and waited... just like others do for that outer
        confirmation. As above so below, or is it really as below so above?
        Actually, does an above (up) and below (down) really make sense!
        This is just more eckie brain washing just like the acting "AS IF"
        thing is!

        Anyway, a review of the Nineth Initiation is that it has three
        parts: "First is the inner experience of the initiate, who meets the
        Mahanta at the mountain of Agam Lok." Delusion and creative
        imagination with an Eckankar only focus. Second is "the retreat with
        spiritual contests." Fun and games for everyone! Wheeee! "Third the
        final part of the Ninth Initiation occurs in the physical world."
        Harold goes on to remind ECKists that, "The Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad,
        Book Two, says: 'The Maulani is the one who sacrifices everything
        for his fellow ECKists, for if it is necessary for him to put
        himself in debt for them, or share their cell in prison, it must be
        done." Hey Harold, what ever happened to self-responsibility and
        karmic lessons for these other ECKists? And, what else might you ask
        them to sacrifice?

        Prometheus



        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
        <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
        > Hi Leigh,
        >
        > Yes I can. However, I'll have to look through some books first in
        > order to give the exact quote, book title, and page number. Harold
        > himself mentions what Marge had said to him. Harold and Darwin had
        > been meeting now and then in a Sound Proof Dark Room where Harold
        > worked when developing prints for Eckankar publications. This
        event
        > with Marge took place after Darwin had given Harold the 9th
        > Initiation in preparation for him to take over as L.E.M. in 1980.
        > However, the power transfer was delayed for one year and Harold
        was
        > disappointed and was acting impatient. Marge said to Harold
        > something like, Why can't you just be happy with being an ECK
        Master?
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "l2eigh"
        > <lgrif@m...> wrote:
        > > HK was in a hurry to become the L.E.M.
        > > > (via Darwin Gross) according to his first wife,
        > >
        > >
        > > Hi Prometheus:
        > > Could you expand on this a little bit?
      • prometheus_973
        Hi Again! It s funny how Eckists just tend to accept anything and everything that Klemp has to say. A true believer in Eckankar has accepted HK s position of
        Message 3 of 7 , Jun 16, 2005
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          Hi Again!

          It's funny how Eckists just tend to accept anything and everything
          that Klemp has to say. A true believer in Eckankar has accepted HK's
          position of authority over him/her. Therefore, the information HK
          has printed in his books, or other publications, is never questioned
          or critically analyzed. It seems that people tend to overlook
          possible and apparent contradictions as a matter of belief and
          faith. People want to believe, and will see contradictions in terms
          of paradoxes, spiritual tests, or on levels of consciousness beyond
          their limited comprehension. The Eckist seeks answers "As If" they
          already know the results. The delusions are shared, re-enforced, and
          are presented and maintained in a comforting structure.

          For instance: Klemp has stated that Eckankar's Nineth Initiation is
          only given on the inner planes. However, this is only partially
          true. The below criteria, as given in Eckankar's Master 4 Discourses
          Lesson 2 states that there are THREE STAGES to the NINETH!

          HOWEVER, "THE THIRD FINAL PART OF THE NINETH INITIATION OCCURS IN
          THE PHYSICAL WORLD." THEREFORE, HAROLD IS NOT BEING COMPLETELY
          ACCURATE. HK SHOULD STATE THAT THE NINETH OCCURS ON BOTH THE INNER
          AND OUTER, OR THAT THE NINETH OCCURS ON THE INNER AND IS CONFIRMED
          ON THE OUTER IN ORDER TO COMPLETE THE INITIATION.

          Actually, these types of errors and the confusion they cause (when
          noticed and not automatically accepted) are typical when the
          Eckankar saviors (Twitch, Gross and Klemp) make it up as they go
          along. Actually, it's so typical of con/cult behavior!

          Prometheus



          > Anyway, a review of the Nineth Initiation is that it has three
          parts: "First is the inner experience of the initiate, who meets the
          Mahanta at the mountain of Agam Lok." Delusion and creative
          imagination with an Eckankar only focus. Second is "the retreat with
          spiritual contests." Fun and games for everyone! Wheeee! "Third the
          final part of the Ninth Initiation occurs in the physical world."

          >
          > Prometheus
        • prometheus_973
          Hi All, FYI: I decided to change the subject line in order to fit the topic better, so don t think you re seeing things if you ve already read this. It s
          Message 4 of 7 , Jun 17, 2005
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            Hi All,

            FYI: I decided to change the subject line in order to fit the topic
            better, so don't think you're "seeing things" if you've already read
            this.

            It's funny how Eckists just tend to accept anything and everything
            that Klemp has to say. A true believer in Eckankar has accepted HK's
            position of authority over him/her. Therefore, the information HK
            has printed in his books, or other publications, is never questioned
            or critically analyzed. It seems that people tend to overlook
            possible and apparent contradictions as a matter of belief and
            faith. People want to believe, and will see contradictions in terms
            of paradoxes, spiritual tests, or on levels of consciousness beyond
            their limited comprehension. The Eckist seeks answers "As If" they
            already know the results. The delusions are shared, re-enforced, and
            are presented and maintained in a comforting structure.

            For instance: Klemp has stated that Eckankar's Nineth Initiation is
            only given on the inner planes. However, this is only partially
            true. The below criteria, as given in Eckankar's Master 4 Discourses
            Lesson 2 states that there are THREE STAGES to the NINETH!

            HOWEVER, "THE THIRD FINAL PART OF THE NINETH INITIATION OCCURS IN
            THE PHYSICAL WORLD." THEREFORE, HAROLD IS NOT BEING COMPLETELY
            ACCURATE. HK SHOULD STATE THAT THE NINETH OCCURS ON BOTH THE INNER
            AND OUTER, OR THAT THE NINETH OCCURS ON THE INNER AND IS CONFIRMED
            ON THE OUTER IN ORDER TO COMPLETE THE INITIATION.

            Actually, these types of errors and the confusion they cause (when
            noticed and not automatically accepted) are typical when the
            Eckankar saviors (Twitch, Gross and Klemp) make it up as they go
            along. Actually, it's so typical of con/cult behavior!

            Prometheus

            p.s.
            Anyway, a review of the Nineth Initiation is that it has three
            parts: "First is the inner experience of the initiate, who meets the
            Mahanta at the mountain of Agam Lok." Delusion and creative
            imagination with an Eckankar only focus. Second is "the retreat with
            spiritual contests." Fun and games for everyone! Wheeee! "Third the
            final part of the Ninth Initiation occurs in the physical world."
          • prometheus_973
            Hello All, FYI: Once again I have changed the subject line in order to be able to find this topic easier for future reference. I checked out the source of my
            Message 5 of 7 , Jun 17, 2005
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              Hello All,

              FYI: Once again I have changed the subject line in order to be able
              to find this topic easier for future reference.

              I checked out the source of my comments and found it in HK's 1987
              copyright of "Soul Travelers of the Far Country." On page 142 Marge
              says to Harold, 'Don't worry'... 'You can always be an ECK Master,
              even if you can't be the Living ECK Master.' On page 143 Harold
              states that, "More than once my wife tried in vain to cheer me up by
              saying that it is a blessing to become an ECK Master; why not set my
              sights on that?" Harold also states that, "From then on I no longer
              spoke about my inner experiences, and at the time, this strained our
              marriage badly."

              Actually, I was wrong about the 9th Initiation date. Harold seems to
              jump around a lot and specific information is hard to find without
              extensive reading. However, HK received his 8th (Inner) Initiation
              on June 14, 1980 and the real outer one on January 27, 1981 (page
              140). On pages 186-187 HK claims to have received the 9th Initiation
              on July 22, 1981 (on the Inner), and states that, "Initiations in
              ECK beyond the 8th are only given on the inner planes." Did he
              confirm receiving the 9th on the inner with Darwin Gross the 972th
              L.E.M. and Mahanta? HK seems to leave out this little detail. Maybe
              Graham and Ford should have kept silent and just lived in the ECK
              delusion of inner mastership!

              But, wait! I seem to remember that in the Master 4 Discourses Lesson
              2 was titled, "The Ninth Initiation." Hmmmm. Well it states that it
              happens on the inner and that all of the 8ths (other planes included
              and from other parts of the physical universe) appear as either of
              the white or yellow race as they gather at this special spiritual
              retreat.

              "White signifies the active path of the extrovert" (they still have
              egos?). "Yellow stands for its counterpoint: the path of indirection
              (not passivity), the method of subtlety rather than easy-to-discern
              outer behavior." Wow, HK really had to go into detail for the
              indirect (nonreactive) yellow race thing! The HUK sound wave is sent
              to the candidate for the 9th Initiation. "In the last phase the
              Mahanta, the Living ECK Master confirms the initiation by some outer
              means. Oops, I guess Graham should have just kept silent and waited
              and waited and waited... just like others do for that outer
              confirmation. As above so below, or is it really as below so above?
              Actually, does an above (up) and below (down) really make sense!
              This is just more eckie brain washing just like the acting "AS IF"
              thing is!

              Anyway, a review of the Nineth Initiation is that it has three
              parts: "First is the inner experience of the initiate, who meets the
              Mahanta at the mountain of Agam Lok." Delusion and creative
              imagination with an Eckankar only focus. Second is "the retreat with
              spiritual contests." Fun and games for everyone! Wheeee! "Third the
              final part of the Ninth Initiation occurs in the physical world."
              Harold goes on to remind ECKists that, "The Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad,
              Book Two, says: 'The Maulani is the one who sacrifices everything
              for his fellow ECKists, for if it is necessary for him to put
              himself in debt for them, or share their cell in prison, it must be
              done." Hey Harold, what ever happened to self-responsibility and
              karmic lessons for these other ECKists? And, what else might you ask
              them to sacrifice?

              Prometheus
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