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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Eckankar: 09/2006 The Mystic World

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  • Ed Kusi
    Hi Ingrid and All, I could swear I ve read this past life dream story before in Klemp s writings. So it is not recent as he s trying to portray the article.
    Message 1 of 11 , Aug 16, 2006
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      Hi Ingrid and All,
      I could swear I've read this past life dream story before in Klemp's writings. So it is not 'recent' as he's trying to portray the article. It seems to me the whole piece was 'engineered' with the recyled past life dream story. In any case, Klemp states the dream has been recurring to the dreamer for the past twenty years!
      Pretujari

      ctecvie <ctecvie@...> wrote:
      Hello Prometheus and all,

      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, "prometheus_ 973"
      <prometheus_ 973@...> wrote:
      >
      > "Oh, You've Come So Far!" by Harold Klemp
      >
      > "The host of a call-in radio program calls himself an expert on
      > dreams. He is a psychiatrist. Callers' questions about a strange
      >or
      > haunting dream are grain for his mill.
      >
      > Most dreams are easy fixes for him. They express some unconscious
      > wish or feeling of the dreamer.

      *** Well, most of the dreams *are* that, are they not?!

      >For me, the most interesting part of
      > the program is the questions. The host's answers often hit a wall,
      > though, or dribble off into a self-satisfying string of mumbo
      >jumbo.
      > The show conveniently airs before bedtime. The few times I braved
      >a
      > segment of it, it put me in a mood to sleep.

      *** HK can't withstand the temptation to put others down, can he? Is
      it True, Necessary, Kind and Loving?!
      >
      > Recently, a caller told of a dream that baffled this dream expert.
      > The expert, an authority, would not--could not--admit that it
      > mystified him too, that it was beyond his area of expertise.
      > Most of you would have immediately known this dream for what it
      >was.
      > It was a vivid past-life experience.

      *** How does HK know that it mystified the host of the show?! So HK,
      the expert on all dreams, knows immediately that it was a vivid past-
      life experience. Well, I think this is known among dream experts as
      well! "Normal" human beings do believe in reincarnation, too!
      >
      > This dream had recurred many times over the last twenty years and
      > was notable in that it always replayed battle scenes of the
      >American
      > Civil War of the 1860s. And the dreamer always floated above them.
      > He could describe the uniforms, the cannons, the horses and their
      > riders, the weather, the soldiers' guns, the officers' swords, and
      > the like. He saw the wounded and the dead. And he could even smell
      > the smoke of cannon fire.

      *** Well, there it is again - HK's favorite topic - wars! It always
      comes down to that it seems to me! He seems to love it! :-))
      >
      > Evidently, dreams of past lives are not in the expert's repertoire
      > of explanations.
      >
      > Yet he let on that the matter was very clear to him. By some leap
      >of
      > logic I didn't follow, he tied the dream to the caller's childhood
      > on his grandfather' s farm. Forget about the caller's you-are-there
      > descriptions of another time and place. To the expert it was all
      > just a subconscious expression of his feelings.

      *** I can imagine that you couldn't follow this "leap of logic", HK!
      And subconscious isn't allowed in eckankar! So just forget it, it's
      a big no-no! That's why so many eckists are controlled by their
      subconscious because HK always appeals to that, seemingly without
      knowing it! LOL!

      >
      > Other questions were brushed aside with wordy tut-tuts. This
      > exchange must have left the dreamer as puzzled as ever, driving
      >him
      > on to seek more satisfying answers from some other source.

      *** Well, one must be aware that seeking advice in a radio show
      isn't the best way to get answers to one's questions! I would go to
      see some kind of counselor, specialized on dreams perhaps!
      >
      > The greatest favor we can do for ourselves is to say we don't know
      > when we don't know.

      *** So HK, you don't know a lot - did you ever say so?!
      >
      > Vast are the worlds of ECK. The experiences we can have within
      >them
      > are more than there are stars in the heavens. Odds are strong--
      > overwhelming- -that you will often run into things you could never
      > have imagined.

      *** Yes HK that happens! What counts is our response to those
      unimagined things! Well, Joan couldn't adapt too well to this
      temporary postal clerk, could she! LOL!
      >
      > This physical life has plenty of surprises too. IF your spiritual
      > unfoldment is on track, you will many times find yourself saying
      > about an experience or condition, 'I just don't know.'

      *** "Normal" humble people say that very often, too! It's because
      life is wonderful and really full of surprises which makes life here
      so great, at least for me! :-)
      >
      > BUT there are also many things you will know. And it's because the
      > Mahanta will show you.

      *** No, thanks - no need of a mahanta! :-)
      >
      > For example, what do you think the dream authority would have made
      > of this dream reported by someone we will call Belle? In the dream
      > state she was visiting friends, sitting in a large, overstuffed
      > chair. They had a huge pet lizard colored like a Gila monster, a
      > large, poisonous reptile found in Arizona, where she was born and
      > briefly lived later.
      >
      > However, Belle found this pet lizard loving and sweet. She was not
      > afraid of it. It crawled over her shoulder, down her arm, and into
      > her lap. Then it crept up her front and licked her face.
      >
      > The alarm clock rang. Since it was an odd dream, she made a note
      >of
      > it in her dream journal.
      >
      > What do you think the dream expert's analysis would have sounded
      > like?
      >
      > Well, he never would get a chance to air it, because at breakfast
      > that very morning, the Mahanta, the Inner Master, gave Belle its
      > meaning. And it rang so true.
      >
      > She was at the table eating breakfast, reading the latest issue of
      > Arizona Highways. Her attention was captured by a photo of a Gila
      > monster. Alongside it was an article on how medical scientists had
      > discovered that its saliva contained a substance to help balance
      > insulin levels in type 2 diabetes. There is also a new medication
      >on
      > the market made of a synthesized version of this substance.
      >
      > This was a health warning from the Master. Belle is not a
      >diabetic,
      > BUT for a full week, she had been craving sweet things.
      >
      > The warning said, 'You're taking in too much sugar." So she said
      > good-bye to the ice cream and cookies.

      *** Well I'm sure she would have thought about this without the
      mahanta as well because her own Higher Self, which HK tries to
      invade and take over, would have guided her there! And much better
      than HK, the mahanta, the intruder, ever could!
      >
      > Here, then, you've met two very differnt dreamers, with two very
      > different dream advisers. The Mahanta's advice is worlds beyond
      >that
      > of this other self-described expert. So very, very far beyond his.

      *** The master of the universe is the greatest expert of course! And
      why can't he speak through the radio show host for example? There's
      something called golden tongued wisdom in eckankar, and the eck
      should be able to speak through anyone, not only HK!
      >
      > Look back sometime and see how far you've come in ECK. And it's
      >all
      > because of your love for the Master."

      *** Yeah look back on how much money you have already spent to this
      silly organization to have the protection of the so-called master!
      This protection isn't worth a dime! Just rely on you own inner and
      Higher Self who doesn't need your money to make a good living out of
      it, on your expense!

      Ingrid



      How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates.

    • Elizabeth
      ... Klemp s writings. So it is not recent as he s trying to portray the article. It seems to me the whole piece was engineered with the recyled past life
      Message 2 of 11 , Aug 16, 2006
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        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Ed Kusi
        <pretujari@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Ingrid and All,
        > I could swear I've read this past life dream story before in
        Klemp's writings. So it is not 'recent' as he's trying to portray
        the article. It seems to me the whole piece was 'engineered' with
        the recyled past life dream story. In any case, Klemp states the
        dream has been recurring to the dreamer for the past twenty years!
        > Pretujari
        >
        > > "Oh, You've Come So Far!" by Harold Klemp


        *** I agree with Pretujari, this is old recycled crap! Even if it
        were not, it isn't beyond Klemp to create a story to impress and
        sound like he is HIGHER than the average smuck! We all should be so
        enlightened by this BS... his example just goes to show you that
        his teaching and dream knowledge isn't all that thrilling or more
        special either! Actually I have read far better stuff from books /
        authors outside of the eckankrap teachings.

        More later.... got a busy day, week, month! LOL trying to get the
        kids set up for the new school year starting in a couple weeks.
        WOOHOO ;-)
        Liz
      • prometheus_973
        Hi Ingrid and All, I ll add my comments to Klemp s expert opinions on the dreams described in his article. Really though, Klemp s opinions are no better than
        Message 3 of 11 , Aug 16, 2006
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          Hi Ingrid and All,
          I'll add my comments to Klemp's "expert" opinions on the dreams
          described in his article. Really though, Klemp's opinions are no
          better than anyone's, especially, that of the actual dreamer! And,
          these insights and opinions may, in many cases, have more to do
          with "us" than the original dreamer. Spirit works in mysterious ways
          and Klemp is usually oblivious to this, as well as, his ever growing
          Karmic debt!


          "Oh, You've Come So Far!" by Harold Klemp

          HK: "The host of a call-in radio program calls himself an expert on
          dreams. He is a psychiatrist. Callers' questions about a strange
          or haunting dream are grain for his mill. Most dreams are easy fixes
          for him. They express some unconscious wish or feeling of the
          dreamer."

          [Me]
          ### Actually, the dreams of Eckists that are sent via Initiate
          Reports, etc. are also "grain" for Klemp's "mill" and are "easy
          fixes" for HK too. Klemp even uses them to "write" book upon book!
          How proud these Eckists are that get their dreams printed
          (mentioned)! However, this is just more vanity accruing for these
          proud Eckists and their wealthy puffed-up "International Who's Who
          of Intellectuals Ninth Edition" Mahanta! LOL!

          [Ingrid]
          *** Well, most of the dreams *are* that, are they not?!

          ### Yes, many dreams do express "unconscious wishes or feelings."
          However, I also see Klemp putting down the talk show host for being
          a psychiatrist. Perhaps HK still has some unresolved anger of that
          1970 visit he had when he was locked up in a Mental Instituition!
          Remember, Klemp claims he had learned "to play the game" in order to
          be released after three weeks!

          HK: "For me, the most interesting part of the program is the
          questions. The host's answers often hit a wall, though, or dribble
          off into a self-satisfying string of mumbo jumbo. The show
          conveniently airs before bedtime. The few times I braved a segment
          of it, it put me in a mood to sleep."

          *** HK can't withstand the temptation to put others down, can he? Is
          it True, Necessary, Kind and Loving?!

          ### Klemp's comments of this talk show host are getting rather nasty
          and personal it seems (more flash-backs). This reminds me of his
          nasty comments in the 09/2003 H.I. Letter towards that Third
          Temporary Postal Clerk (Fill-in) when H.K. defended Joan for her
          violating the Law of Economy (Not showing her I.D. before the clerk
          looked for her package), having too much pride of her position at
          the ESC, and for her impatience.

          HK: "Recently, a caller told of a dream that baffled this dream
          expert. The expert, an authority, would not--could not--admit that
          it mystified him too, that it was beyond his area of expertise. Most
          of you would have immediately known this dream for what it was. It
          was a vivid past-life experience."

          *** How does HK know that it mystified the host of the show?! So HK,
          the expert on all dreams, knows immediately that it was a vivid past-
          life experience. Well, I think this is known among dream experts as
          well! "Normal" human beings do believe in reincarnation, too!

          ### Doesn't Klemp also claim to be an "expert" and an "authority"
          and much much more! How arrogant! Klemp is too clueless to
          be "mystified" of anything he's a know-it-all in his (and Eckists')
          own delusional mind(s)!

          HK: "This dream had recurred many times over the last Twenty Years
          and was notable in that it always replayed battle scenes of the
          American Civil War of the 1860s. And the dreamer always floated
          above them. He could describe the uniforms, the cannons, the horses
          and their riders, the weather, the soldiers' guns, the officers'
          swords, and the like. He saw the wounded and the dead. And he could
          even smell the smoke of cannon fire." [My caps]

          *** Well, there it is again - HK's favorite topic - wars! It always
          comes down to that it seems to me! He seems to love it! :-))

          ### Yes, and HK never takes a position or to comment how futile it
          all is, or why can't we all just get along, or the "whys" of why we
          can't! This would be a good time to go more indepth and present the
          higher truths that Soul is seeking. Klemp is message is boring and
          redundant and never benefits the advanced Soul. And, aren't Eckists
          supposed to be "advanced" Souls? Where's the Spiritual Meat?!

          HK: "Evidently, dreams of past lives are not in the expert's
          repertoire of explanations. Yet he let on that the matter was very
          clear to him. By some leap of logic I didn't follow, he tied the
          dream to the caller's childhood on his grandfather's farm. Forget
          about the caller's you-are-there descriptions of another time and
          place. To the expert it was all just a subconscious expression of
          his feelings."

          *** I can imagine that you couldn't follow this "leap of logic", HK!
          And subconscious isn't allowed in eckankar! So just forget it, it's
          a big no-no! That's why so many eckists are controlled by their
          subconscious because HK always appeals to that, seemingly without
          knowing it! LOL!

          ### I agree Ingrid, why can't the LEM/Mahanta follow the "leap in
          logic?" Maybe Klemp is in denial of some childhood events that
          occurred back on his parent's farm that he refuses to face! Klemp
          does seem to hang onto anger and dwells in and recreates past events
          to suit his scamming agenda and false image.


          HK: "Other questions were brushed aside with wordy tut-tuts. This
          exchange must have left the dreamer as puzzled as ever, driving him
          on to seek more satisfying answers from some other source."

          *** Well, one must be aware that seeking advice in a radio show
          isn't the best way to get answers to one's questions! I would go to
          see some kind of counselor, specialized on dreams perhaps!

          ### Klemp needs to look into a mirror more often. HK is an expert at
          saying nothing while putting down others. Have Eckists ever read
          his "loser" comments. Do Klemp's words depict a "Loving" master or
          another Jerry Falwell?

          HK: "The greatest favor we can do for ourselves is to say we don't
          know when we don't know."

          *** So HK, you don't know a lot - did you ever say so?!

          ### Well HK did say that he couldn't follow the psychiatrist's "Leap
          of Logic," however, HK was either Not being honest (unless is is
          that stupid), or he was being sarcastic (negative).

          HK: "Vast are the worlds of ECK. The experiences we can have within
          them are more than there are stars in the heavens. Odds are strong--
          overwhelming--that you will often run into things you could never
          have imagined."

          *** Yes HK that happens! What counts is our response to those
          unimagined things! Well, Joan couldn't adapt too well to this
          temporary postal clerk, could she! LOL!

          ### Yep, that poor postal clerk! What negativity he had to fend off!
          It's a good thing that 9th Initiate Joan and 14th Initiate Harry
          aren't as powerful as they delude themselves to be! Of course, I'm
          just kidding about that. JK and HK know that it's all a scam. The
          Eckists are the only ones that are deluded!

          HK: "This physical life has plenty of surprises too. IF your
          spiritual unfoldment is on track, you will many times find yourself
          saying about an experience or condition, 'I just don't know.'"

          *** "Normal" humble people say that very often, too! It's because
          life is wonderful and really full of surprises which makes life here
          so great, at least for me! :-)

          ### It's true that sometimes we can't see what is happening or the
          reasons for it because we either don't look hard enough (aren't
          interested), we are being spared the pain of knowing the outcome
          before events play out, because we sometimes just need to learn by
          repetition, and we see and experience things according to what we
          need (for spiritual growth) and can handle.

          HK: "BUT there are also many things you will know. And it's because
          the Mahanta will show you." [My caps]

          *** No, thanks - no need of a mahanta! :-)

          ### Notice that Klemp is still using BUT and IF in his articles to
          Eckists when he stated in the 12/2005 H.I. Letter Not to or avoid
          using these words with other Eckists. Eckists shouldn't trust that
          Klemp is truthful about anything he says!

          [Second dream comments]

          HK: "For example, what do you think the dream authority would have
          made of this dream reported by someone we will call Belle? In the
          dream state she was visiting friends, sitting in a large,
          overstuffed chair. They had a huge pet lizard colored like a Gila
          monster, a large, poisonous reptile found in Arizona, where she was
          born and briefly lived later."

          ### What makes Klemp an authority? He was initiated by a Thief who
          was also a Black Magician (Gross) who was in turn initiated by the
          Eck Board of Trustees and Officers on Gail's Twitchell's behalf.
          And, the whole Eckankar scam was created by a Liar - Paul Twitchell.
          And, Rebazar was created by Twit so it isn't R.T. who "Fills-in" as
          needed either! This is just more myth. Ask Doug Marman!

          HK: "However, Belle found this pet lizard loving and sweet. She was
          not afraid of it. It crawled over her shoulder, down her arm, and
          into her lap. Then it crept up her front and licked her face. The
          alarm clock rang. Since it was an odd dream, she made a note
          of it in her dream journal."

          ### Perhaps this has more to do with Belle overcoming fear!

          HK: "What do you think the dream expert's analysis would have
          sounded like?"

          ### I guess we're about to hear what the other "expert" (HK) is
          about to say. However, you know what they say about opinions don't
          you? They are like ass holes - everyone has one!

          HK: "Well, he never would get a chance to air it, because at
          breakfast that very morning, the Mahanta, the Inner Master, gave
          Belle its meaning. And it rang so true."

          ### I'm curious as to why HK listens to this Radio Show before he
          goes to sleep. Why does the so-called LEM/Mahanta do this? Is this
          the only way he is able to dream? Sad state of affairs for Eckists!

          HK: "She was at the table eating breakfast, reading the latest issue
          of Arizona Highways. Her attention was captured by a photo of a Gila
          monster. Alongside it was an article on how medical scientists had
          discovered that its saliva contained a substance to help balance
          insulin levels in type 2 diabetes. There is also a new medication
          on the market made of a synthesized version of this substance."

          ### I'll bet that this magazine cover was seen by her prior to her
          dream and that her unconscious mind dreamed about it. Maybe it did
          have to do with her sugar intake or Not! Like I previously stated,
          maybe the dream had more to do with her facing hers fears. Or, Klemp
          is just flexing his knowledge and Who's Who intellect! LOL!

          HK: "This was a health warning from the Master. Belle is not a
          diabetic, BUT for a full week, she had been craving sweet things.
          The warning said, 'You're taking in too much sugar." So she said
          good-bye to the ice cream and cookies." [My caps]

          *** Well I'm sure she would have thought about this without the
          mahanta as well because her own Higher Self, which HK tries to
          invade and take over, would have guided her there! And much better
          than HK, the mahanta, the intruder, ever could!

          ### Very true! Klemp is very good at putting words and opinions in
          the mouth of others. This person (Soul) will figure it out without
          being misdirected by a pseudo expert and master.

          HK: "Here, then, you've met two very differnt dreamers, with two
          very different dream advisers. The Mahanta's advice is worlds beyond
          that of this other self-described expert. So very, very far beyond
          his.

          *** The master of the universe is the greatest expert of course! And
          why can't he speak through the radio show host for example? There's
          something called golden tongued wisdom in eckankar, and the eck
          should be able to speak through anyone, not only HK!

          ### Klemp makes it sound like he is the only "expert" who knows
          anything about past lives. LOL! Many thousands of people outside of
          Eckankar know much more about this topic than Klemp claims to know
          or will ever know! And, Klemp's very nasty, once again, when he
          attempts to belittle this psychiatrist by calling him a "self-
          described expert!" What does Klemp think he is? LOL! Again, I really
          believe that Klemp is still holding onto anger from his
          incarceration in a Mental Institution. IMO- HK is transferring this
          unresolved anger to all psychiatrists and other mental health
          practitioners.

          HK: "Look back sometime and see how far you've come in ECK. And it's
          all because of your love for the Master."

          *** Yeah look back on how much money you have already spent to this
          silly organization to have the protection of the so-called master!
          This protection isn't worth a dime! Just rely on you own inner and
          Higher Self who doesn't need your money to make a good living out of
          it, on your expense!

          ### True, Ingrid, money and time was wasted on a scam that created
          more and more distortions of the real Truth we were seeking. The
          harm in Eckankar is that the seeker must adopt delusion or become
          more delusional in order to fit-in and have Eckie "experiences."
          Eckankar encourages dependency and attachment to a LEM/Mahanta and
          increases one's vanity via higher initiations. Eckists, does this
          sound like it could be another Kal trap like other religions - nah!
          That's just your imagination or is it?

          Prometheus
        • mishmisha9
          Klemp is a delusional pompous ass and those who think what he says is sensible and to be believed are also delusional, but they probably are not
          Message 4 of 11 , Aug 16, 2006
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            Klemp is a delusional pompous ass and those who think what he says
            is sensible and to be believed are also delusional, but they
            probably are not pompous--rather just needy in that they let a nut
            like HK to think for them and dictate what to do and when! : )

            Mish

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth"
            <ewickings@...> wrote:
            >
            > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Ed Kusi
            > <pretujari@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi Ingrid and All,
            > > I could swear I've read this past life dream story before in
            > Klemp's writings. So it is not 'recent' as he's trying to portray
            > the article. It seems to me the whole piece was 'engineered' with
            > the recyled past life dream story. In any case, Klemp states the
            > dream has been recurring to the dreamer for the past twenty years!
            > > Pretujari
            > >
            > > > "Oh, You've Come So Far!" by Harold Klemp
            >
            >
            > *** I agree with Pretujari, this is old recycled crap! Even if it
            > were not, it isn't beyond Klemp to create a story to impress and
            > sound like he is HIGHER than the average smuck! We all should be
            so
            > enlightened by this BS... his example just goes to show you that
            > his teaching and dream knowledge isn't all that thrilling or more
            > special either! Actually I have read far better stuff from
            books /
            > authors outside of the eckankrap teachings.
            >
            > More later.... got a busy day, week, month! LOL trying to get
            the
            > kids set up for the new school year starting in a couple weeks.
            > WOOHOO ;-)
            > Liz
            >
          • Ed Kusi
            Hi Folks, So what kind of godman is Klemp? A Godman is supposed to bring peace, light, and warmth in his/her surroundings to affect even the entire world.
            Message 5 of 11 , Aug 17, 2006
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              Hi Folks,
              So what kind of ' godman' is Klemp? A 'Godman' is supposed to bring peace, light, and warmth in his/her surroundings to affect even the entire world. Not Klemp. He breaks the ground for his temple complex with deceit and lies as the foundation and twelve years later, according to his deluded followers, there's a terrorist attack and thousands of people loose their lives. Not to mention the devastation to families. If he is responsible for this then he is responsible for all the world's catastrophes since he's been around as 'mah-hon-tah.' LOL. So when was it that Klempus sneezed or stubbed his toe that many years ago that resulted in the Tsunami, H. Katrina and the like? All in the name of purification? Purification for those who loose their lives or those who are affected by the lives lost? So bloody negative for a 'Godman' and 'Chief Messenger of God in all the Universes!
              Pretujari

              prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
              Hi Ingrid and All,
              I'll add my comments to Klemp's "expert" opinions on the dreams
              described in his article. Really though, Klemp's opinions are no
              better than anyone's, especially, that of the actual dreamer! And,
              these insights and opinions may, in many cases, have more to do
              with "us" than the original dreamer. Spirit works in mysterious ways
              and Klemp is usually oblivious to this, as well as, his ever growing
              Karmic debt!

              "Oh, You've Come So Far!" by Harold Klemp

              HK: "The host of a call-in radio program calls himself an expert on
              dreams. He is a psychiatrist. Callers' questions about a strange
              or haunting dream are grain for his mill. Most dreams are easy fixes
              for him. They express some unconscious wish or feeling of the
              dreamer."

              [Me]
              ### Actually, the dreams of Eckists that are sent via Initiate
              Reports, etc. are also "grain" for Klemp's "mill" and are "easy
              fixes" for HK too. Klemp even uses them to "write" book upon book!
              How proud these Eckists are that get their dreams printed
              (mentioned)! However, this is just more vanity accruing for these
              proud Eckists and their wealthy puffed-up "International Who's Who
              of Intellectuals Ninth Edition" Mahanta! LOL!

              [Ingrid]
              *** Well, most of the dreams *are* that, are they not?!

              ### Yes, many dreams do express "unconscious wishes or feelings."
              However, I also see Klemp putting down the talk show host for being
              a psychiatrist. Perhaps HK still has some unresolved anger of that
              1970 visit he had when he was locked up in a Mental Instituition!
              Remember, Klemp claims he had learned "to play the game" in order to
              be released after three weeks!

              HK: "For me, the most interesting part of the program is the
              questions. The host's answers often hit a wall, though, or dribble
              off into a self-satisfying string of mumbo jumbo. The show
              conveniently airs before bedtime. The few times I braved a segment
              of it, it put me in a mood to sleep."

              *** HK can't withstand the temptation to put others down, can he? Is
              it True, Necessary, Kind and Loving?!

              ### Klemp's comments of this talk show host are getting rather nasty
              and personal it seems (more flash-backs) . This reminds me of his
              nasty comments in the 09/2003 H.I. Letter towards that Third
              Temporary Postal Clerk (Fill-in) when H.K. defended Joan for her
              violating the Law of Economy (Not showing her I.D. before the clerk
              looked for her package), having too much pride of her position at
              the ESC, and for her impatience.

              HK: "Recently, a caller told of a dream that baffled this dream
              expert. The expert, an authority, would not--could not--admit that
              it mystified him too, that it was beyond his area of expertise. Most
              of you would have immediately known this dream for what it was. It
              was a vivid past-life experience."

              *** How does HK know that it mystified the host of the show?! So HK,
              the expert on all dreams, knows immediately that it was a vivid past-
              life experience. Well, I think this is known among dream experts as
              well! "Normal" human beings do believe in reincarnation, too!

              ### Doesn't Klemp also claim to be an "expert" and an "authority"
              and much much more! How arrogant! Klemp is too clueless to
              be "mystified" of anything he's a know-it-all in his (and Eckists')
              own delusional mind(s)!

              HK: "This dream had recurred many times over the last Twenty Years
              and was notable in that it always replayed battle scenes of the
              American Civil War of the 1860s. And the dreamer always floated
              above them. He could describe the uniforms, the cannons, the horses
              and their riders, the weather, the soldiers' guns, the officers'
              swords, and the like. He saw the wounded and the dead. And he could
              even smell the smoke of cannon fire." [My caps]

              *** Well, there it is again - HK's favorite topic - wars! It always
              comes down to that it seems to me! He seems to love it! :-))

              ### Yes, and HK never takes a position or to comment how futile it
              all is, or why can't we all just get along, or the "whys" of why we
              can't! This would be a good time to go more indepth and present the
              higher truths that Soul is seeking. Klemp is message is boring and
              redundant and never benefits the advanced Soul. And, aren't Eckists
              supposed to be "advanced" Souls? Where's the Spiritual Meat?!

              HK: "Evidently, dreams of past lives are not in the expert's
              repertoire of explanations. Yet he let on that the matter was very
              clear to him. By some leap of logic I didn't follow, he tied the
              dream to the caller's childhood on his grandfather' s farm. Forget
              about the caller's you-are-there descriptions of another time and
              place. To the expert it was all just a subconscious expression of
              his feelings."

              *** I can imagine that you couldn't follow this "leap of logic", HK!
              And subconscious isn't allowed in eckankar! So just forget it, it's
              a big no-no! That's why so many eckists are controlled by their
              subconscious because HK always appeals to that, seemingly without
              knowing it! LOL!

              ### I agree Ingrid, why can't the LEM/Mahanta follow the "leap in
              logic?" Maybe Klemp is in denial of some childhood events that
              occurred back on his parent's farm that he refuses to face! Klemp
              does seem to hang onto anger and dwells in and recreates past events
              to suit his scamming agenda and false image.


              HK: "Other questions were brushed aside with wordy tut-tuts. This
              exchange must have left the dreamer as puzzled as ever, driving him
              on to seek more satisfying answers from some other source."

              *** Well, one must be aware that seeking advice in a radio show
              isn't the best way to get answers to one's questions! I would go to
              see some kind of counselor, specialized on dreams perhaps!

              ### Klemp needs to look into a mirror more often. HK is an expert at
              saying nothing while putting down others. Have Eckists ever read
              his "loser" comments. Do Klemp's words depict a "Loving" master or
              another Jerry Falwell?

              HK: "The greatest favor we can do for ourselves is to say we don't
              know when we don't know."

              *** So HK, you don't know a lot - did you ever say so?!

              ### Well HK did say that he couldn't follow the psychiatrist' s "Leap
              of Logic," however, HK was either Not being honest (unless is is
              that stupid), or he was being sarcastic (negative).

              HK: "Vast are the worlds of ECK. The experiences we can have within
              them are more than there are stars in the heavens. Odds are strong--
              overwhelming- -that you will often run into things you could never
              have imagined."

              *** Yes HK that happens! What counts is our response to those
              unimagined things! Well, Joan couldn't adapt too well to this
              temporary postal clerk, could she! LOL!

              ### Yep, that poor postal clerk! What negativity he had to fend off!
              It's a good thing that 9th Initiate Joan and 14th Initiate Harry
              aren't as powerful as they delude themselves to be! Of course, I'm
              just kidding about that. JK and HK know that it's all a scam. The
              Eckists are the only ones that are deluded!

              HK: "This physical life has plenty of surprises too. IF your
              spiritual unfoldment is on track, you will many times find yourself
              saying about an experience or condition, 'I just don't know.'"

              *** "Normal" humble people say that very often, too! It's because
              life is wonderful and really full of surprises which makes life here
              so great, at least for me! :-)

              ### It's true that sometimes we can't see what is happening or the
              reasons for it because we either don't look hard enough (aren't
              interested), we are being spared the pain of knowing the outcome
              before events play out, because we sometimes just need to learn by
              repetition, and we see and experience things according to what we
              need (for spiritual growth) and can handle.

              HK: "BUT there are also many things you will know. And it's because
              the Mahanta will show you." [My caps]

              *** No, thanks - no need of a mahanta! :-)

              ### Notice that Klemp is still using BUT and IF in his articles to
              Eckists when he stated in the 12/2005 H.I. Letter Not to or avoid
              using these words with other Eckists. Eckists shouldn't trust that
              Klemp is truthful about anything he says!

              [Second dream comments]

              HK: "For example, what do you think the dream authority would have
              made of this dream reported by someone we will call Belle? In the
              dream state she was visiting friends, sitting in a large,
              overstuffed chair. They had a huge pet lizard colored like a Gila
              monster, a large, poisonous reptile found in Arizona, where she was
              born and briefly lived later."

              ### What makes Klemp an authority? He was initiated by a Thief who
              was also a Black Magician (Gross) who was in turn initiated by the
              Eck Board of Trustees and Officers on Gail's Twitchell's behalf.
              And, the whole Eckankar scam was created by a Liar - Paul Twitchell.
              And, Rebazar was created by Twit so it isn't R.T. who "Fills-in" as
              needed either! This is just more myth. Ask Doug Marman!

              HK: "However, Belle found this pet lizard loving and sweet. She was
              not afraid of it. It crawled over her shoulder, down her arm, and
              into her lap. Then it crept up her front and licked her face. The
              alarm clock rang. Since it was an odd dream, she made a note
              of it in her dream journal."

              ### Perhaps this has more to do with Belle overcoming fear!

              HK: "What do you think the dream expert's analysis would have
              sounded like?"

              ### I guess we're about to hear what the other "expert" (HK) is
              about to say. However, you know what they say about opinions don't
              you? They are like ass holes - everyone has one!

              HK: "Well, he never would get a chance to air it, because at
              breakfast that very morning, the Mahanta, the Inner Master, gave
              Belle its meaning. And it rang so true."

              ### I'm curious as to why HK listens to this Radio Show before he
              goes to sleep. Why does the so-called LEM/Mahanta do this? Is this
              the only way he is able to dream? Sad state of affairs for Eckists!

              HK: "She was at the table eating breakfast, reading the latest issue
              of Arizona Highways. Her attention was captured by a photo of a Gila
              monster. Alongside it was an article on how medical scientists had
              discovered that its saliva contained a substance to help balance
              insulin levels in type 2 diabetes. There is also a new medication
              on the market made of a synthesized version of this substance."

              ### I'll bet that this magazine cover was seen by her prior to her
              dream and that her unconscious mind dreamed about it. Maybe it did
              have to do with her sugar intake or Not! Like I previously stated,
              maybe the dream had more to do with her facing hers fears. Or, Klemp
              is just flexing his knowledge and Who's Who intellect! LOL!

              HK: "This was a health warning from the Master. Belle is not a
              diabetic, BUT for a full week, she had been craving sweet things.
              The warning said, 'You're taking in too much sugar." So she said
              good-bye to the ice cream and cookies." [My caps]

              *** Well I'm sure she would have thought about this without the
              mahanta as well because her own Higher Self, which HK tries to
              invade and take over, would have guided her there! And much better
              than HK, the mahanta, the intruder, ever could!

              ### Very true! Klemp is very good at putting words and opinions in
              the mouth of others. This person (Soul) will figure it out without
              being misdirected by a pseudo expert and master.

              HK: "Here, then, you've met two very differnt dreamers, with two
              very different dream advisers. The Mahanta's advice is worlds beyond
              that of this other self-described expert. So very, very far beyond
              his.

              *** The master of the universe is the greatest expert of course! And
              why can't he speak through the radio show host for example? There's
              something called golden tongued wisdom in eckankar, and the eck
              should be able to speak through anyone, not only HK!

              ### Klemp makes it sound like he is the only "expert" who knows
              anything about past lives. LOL! Many thousands of people outside of
              Eckankar know much more about this topic than Klemp claims to know
              or will ever know! And, Klemp's very nasty, once again, when he
              attempts to belittle this psychiatrist by calling him a "self-
              described expert!" What does Klemp think he is? LOL! Again, I really
              believe that Klemp is still holding onto anger from his
              incarceration in a Mental Institution. IMO- HK is transferring this
              unresolved anger to all psychiatrists and other mental health
              practitioners.

              HK: "Look back sometime and see how far you've come in ECK. And it's
              all because of your love for the Master."

              *** Yeah look back on how much money you have already spent to this
              silly organization to have the protection of the so-called master!
              This protection isn't worth a dime! Just rely on you own inner and
              Higher Self who doesn't need your money to make a good living out of
              it, on your expense!

              ### True, Ingrid, money and time was wasted on a scam that created
              more and more distortions of the real Truth we were seeking. The
              harm in Eckankar is that the seeker must adopt delusion or become
              more delusional in order to fit-in and have Eckie "experiences. "
              Eckankar encourages dependency and attachment to a LEM/Mahanta and
              increases one's vanity via higher initiations. Eckists, does this
              sound like it could be another Kal trap like other religions - nah!
              That's just your imagination or is it?

              Prometheus




              Do you Yahoo!?
              Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.

            • Elizabeth
              ... Oh, You ve Come So Far! by Harold Klemp I have been steaming about this latest scheme by Klemp! Of course when the Mahanta says YOU HAVE COME SO FAR,
              Message 6 of 11 , Aug 17, 2006
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                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                <mishmisha9@...> wrote:
                >
                > Klemp is a delusional pompous ass and those who think what he says
                > is sensible and to be believed are also delusional, but they
                > probably are not pompous--rather just needy in that they let a nut
                > like HK to think for them and dictate what to do and when! : )
                >
                > Mish


                "Oh, You've Come So Far!" by Harold Klemp


                I have been steaming about this latest scheme by Klemp! Of course
                when the Mahanta says YOU HAVE COME SO FAR, these poor delusional
                eckist will sit in agreement. The thing is, we all have come so far...
                every single person has struggles, hardships, illnesses, ease,
                freedom, good health and awareness etc, not just Klemp and his chosen
                ones. Therefore I say, we all have come so far! And I will go as far
                as to say, "I have gone FURTHER without Klemp" the Mythical God Man
                of the entire universe!


                Paradox

                You will never achieve spiritual enlightenment. The you that you think
                of as you is not you. The you that thinks of you as you is not you.
                There is no you, so who wishes to become enlightened?

                Who is not enlightened? Who will become enlightened? Who will be
                enlightened?

                Enlightenment is your destiny----more certain than sunrise. You cannot
                fail to achieve enlightenment. Were you told otherwise? Irresistible
                forces compel you. The universe insists. It is not within your power
                to fail.

                There is no path to enlightenment: It lies in all directions at all
                times. On the journey to enlightenment, you create and destroy your
                own path with every step.

                No one can follow another's path. No one can step off the path. No one
                can lead another. No one can turn back. No one can stop.

                Enlightenment is closer than your skin, more immediate than your next
                breath, and forever beyond your reach.

                It need not be sought because it cannot be found. It cannot be found
                because it cannot be lost. It cannot be lost because it is not other
                than that which seeks.

                The paradox is that there is no paradox.
                Is that not the damnedest thing?

                ~ Jed McKenna ~


                Have a great day everyone,
                Liz
              • prometheus_973
                Hello All, On page 2 of the 09/2006 The Mystic World of Eckankar is a picture of Eckists sitting outside on the patio at the Temple of Eck and looking toward
                Message 7 of 11 , Aug 17, 2006
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                  Hello All,
                  On page 2 of the 09/2006 "The Mystic World of Eckankar" is a picture
                  of Eckists sitting outside on the patio at the Temple of Eck and
                  looking toward the Chapel while on a visit/tour during the 2006
                  Springtime Seminar.

                  Directly under this picture is a "Spiritual Tip" titled Holy Ground.
                  The thing is that the quote (taken from the Mahanta Transcripts,
                  Book 16) contradicts the view that the Eck Temple, Chapel, ESC, is
                  Holy Ground! Therefore, why is it necessary for Eckists to make a
                  pilgrimage to Chanhassen, MN?

                  The quote points out that wherever the individual Soul
                  walks is Holy Ground and that everything is between God and Soul.
                  There is no need for a Mahanta or for Eck Masters. "Soul is the
                  center of the universe..." However, Klemp does use a "BUT" and
                  an "IF" which makes me wonder if he is being truthful.

                  HK: "BUT wherever you are is holy IF you recognize at any given
                  moment that you are in the precence of God."

                  Of course, another problem we have is with the use of the
                  word "God." Every true Eckist knows that "God" is really the Kal and
                  is Not the same as SUGMAD. This is just "common language" used to
                  make the public feel comfortable, as well as, to trick them
                  (temporarily) until they become more trusting (open) and are able to
                  handle "higher truths" via the Mahanta's guidance. LOL!

                  Klemp states that: "Sometimes we get things backward: we feel that
                  we have to go to a holy place and only there are we in the presence
                  of God. Sometimes it's a holy mountain, or a holy building."

                  So, you see - it's very interesting that this is stated directly
                  under the picture of the Eck Chapel, Temple patio, and the "Holy"
                  grounds. Perhaps this is Golden-Tongued Wisdom for all Eckists and a
                  clue for them to spend their hard earned money elsewhere instead of
                  traveling to Minneapolis for pilgrimages to the Temple and the "Holy
                  Grounds" of Chanhassen.

                  Prometheus



                  mishmisha wrote:

                  Klemp is a delusional pompous ass and those who think what he says
                  is sensible and to be believed are also delusional, but they
                  probably are not pompous--rather just needy in that they let a nut
                  like HK to think for them and dictate what to do and when! : )

                  Mish


                  "Oh, You've Come So Far!" by Harold Klemp


                  Liz: I have been steaming about this latest scheme by Klemp! Of
                  course when the Mahanta says YOU HAVE COME SO FAR, these poor
                  delusional eckist will sit in agreement. The thing is, we all have
                  come so far... every single person has struggles, hardships,
                  illnesses, ease, freedom, good health and awareness etc, not just
                  Klemp and his chosen ones. Therefore I say, we all have come so far!
                  And I will go as far as to say, "I have gone FURTHER without Klemp"
                  the Mythical God Man of the entire universe!

                  ********************************************************************
                  Paradox by Jed McKenna

                  You will never achieve spiritual enlightenment. The you that you
                  think of as you is not you. The you that thinks of you as you is not
                  you. There is no you, so who wishes to become enlightened?

                  Who is not enlightened? Who will become enlightened? Who will be
                  enlightened?

                  Enlightenment is your destiny----more certain than sunrise. You
                  cannot fail to achieve enlightenment. Were you told otherwise?
                  Irresistible forces compel you. The universe insists. It is not
                  within your power to fail.

                  There is no path to enlightenment: It lies in all directions at all
                  times. On the journey to enlightenment, you create and destroy your
                  own path with every step.

                  No one can follow another's path. No one can step off the path. No
                  one can lead another. No one can turn back. No one can stop.

                  Enlightenment is closer than your skin, more immediate than your
                  next breath, and forever beyond your reach.

                  It need not be sought because it cannot be found. It cannot be found
                  because it cannot be lost. It cannot be lost because it is not other
                  than that which seeks.

                  The paradox is that there is no paradox. Is that not the damnedest
                  thing?
                • mishmisha9
                  Hi, All! Here s a thought about Prometheus s observation in the recent Mystic World--is it necessary for eckists to make a pilgrimage to Chanhassen? Perhaps,
                  Message 8 of 11 , Aug 19, 2006
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                    Hi, All!

                    Here's a thought about Prometheus's observation in the recent Mystic
                    World--is it necessary for eckists to make a pilgrimage to
                    Chanhassen? Perhaps, Harold is subtly suggesting that it is not
                    necessary to make this travel there. Maybe, Harold is thinking if
                    they don't come in droves, he can quit getting up on stage and stop
                    giving those silly in-person talks. After all, he is not that well
                    physically and it would take yet another load off of his extremely
                    busy days! LOL!

                    We were discussing a while back about the possibility of Joan
                    becoming a co-L.E.M. so that she can take on some of these duties
                    for Harold and he could just function on the "inner" as the mahanta.
                    But now they might be re-thinking--what, the heck, no need to
                    continue the talks. If they (the chelas) don't come, Harold won't
                    have to sit up there on stage--and no need to make Joan co-L.E.M.
                    After all, the mahanta doesn't want to be second guessed, does
                    he? : )

                    As to the money not being spent? Why certainly the money chelas save
                    on travel and hotel expenses, etc., they can donate more freely and
                    directly to the Temple, and also spend more of their money on vahana
                    work and buying eck publications. It looks like a winning scheme
                    that might be in the works!

                    Meanwhile, what will Harold being doing on Oct. 22 each year? He can
                    do a video address while basking somewhere on a nice sunny warm
                    vacation retreat. Sounds like the perfect life to me! LOL!

                    Mish

                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                    <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                    Hello All,
                    On page 2 of the 09/2006 "The Mystic World of Eckankar" is a picture
                    of Eckists sitting outside on the patio at the Temple of Eck and
                    looking toward the Chapel while on a visit/tour during the 2006
                    Springtime Seminar.

                    Directly under this picture is a "Spiritual Tip" titled Holy Ground.
                    The thing is that the quote (taken from the Mahanta Transcripts,
                    Book 16) contradicts the view that the Eck Temple, Chapel, ESC, is
                    Holy Ground! Therefore, why is it necessary for Eckists to make a
                    pilgrimage to Chanhassen, MN?

                    The quote points out that wherever the individual Soul
                    walks is Holy Ground and that everything is between God and Soul.
                    There is no need for a Mahanta or for Eck Masters. "Soul is the
                    center of the universe..." However, Klemp does use a "BUT" and
                    an "IF" which makes me wonder if he is being truthful.

                    HK: "BUT wherever you are is holy IF you recognize at any given
                    moment that you are in the precence of God."

                    Of course, another problem we have is with the use of the
                    word "God." Every true Eckist knows that "God" is really the Kal and
                    is Not the same as SUGMAD. This is just "common language" used to
                    make the public feel comfortable, as well as, to trick them
                    (temporarily) until they become more trusting (open) and are able to
                    handle "higher truths" via the Mahanta's guidance. LOL!

                    Klemp states that: "Sometimes we get things backward: we feel that
                    we have to go to a holy place and only there are we in the presence
                    of God. Sometimes it's a holy mountain, or a holy building."

                    So, you see - it's very interesting that this is stated directly
                    under the picture of the Eck Chapel, Temple patio, and the "Holy"
                    grounds. Perhaps this is Golden-Tongued Wisdom for all Eckists and a
                    clue for them to spend their hard earned money elsewhere instead of
                    traveling to Minneapolis for pilgrimages to the Temple and the "Holy
                    Grounds" of Chanhassen.

                    Prometheus
                    >
                  • prometheus_973
                    Hello All, I just thought I d bring this current article back to the front page for anyone (especially Eckists) to read this weekend. I ll be posting Klemp s
                    Message 9 of 11 , Aug 19, 2006
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                      Hello All,
                      I just thought I'd bring this current article back to the front page
                      for anyone (especially Eckists) to read this weekend. I'll be
                      posting Klemp's 09/2006 Wisdom Notes soon. I'll look forward to
                      reading comments on HK's distorted 20/20 hindsight view of history.

                      ********************************************************************

                      Hi Ingrid and All,
                      I'll add my comments to Klemp's "expert" opinions on the dreams
                      described in his article. Really though, Klemp's opinions are no
                      better than anyone's, especially, that of the actual dreamer! And,
                      these insights and opinions may, in many cases, have more to do
                      with "us" than the original dreamer. Spirit works in mysterious ways
                      and Klemp is usually oblivious to this, as well as, his ever growing
                      Karmic debt!


                      "Oh, You've Come So Far!" by Harold Klemp

                      HK: "The host of a call-in radio program calls himself an expert on
                      dreams. He is a psychiatrist. Callers' questions about a strange
                      or haunting dream are grain for his mill. Most dreams are easy fixes
                      for him. They express some unconscious wish or feeling of the
                      dreamer."

                      [Me]
                      ### Actually, the dreams of Eckists that are sent via Initiate
                      Reports, etc. are also "grain" for Klemp's "mill" and are "easy
                      fixes" for HK too. Klemp even uses them to "write" book upon book!
                      How proud these Eckists are that get their dreams printed
                      (mentioned)! However, this is just more vanity accruing for these
                      proud Eckists and their wealthy puffed-up "International Who's Who
                      of Intellectuals Ninth Edition" Mahanta! LOL!

                      [Ingrid]
                      *** Well, most of the dreams *are* that, are they not?!

                      ### Yes, many dreams do express "unconscious wishes or feelings."
                      However, I also see Klemp putting down the talk show host for being
                      a psychiatrist. Perhaps HK still has some unresolved anger of that
                      1970 visit he had when he was locked up in a Mental Instituition!
                      Remember, Klemp claims he had learned "to play the game" in order to
                      be released after three weeks!

                      HK: "For me, the most interesting part of the program is the
                      questions. The host's answers often hit a wall, though, or dribble
                      off into a self-satisfying string of mumbo jumbo. The show
                      conveniently airs before bedtime. The few times I braved a segment
                      of it, it put me in a mood to sleep."

                      *** HK can't withstand the temptation to put others down, can he? Is
                      it True, Necessary, Kind and Loving?!

                      ### Klemp's comments of this talk show host are getting rather nasty
                      and personal it seems (more flash-backs). This reminds me of his
                      nasty comments in the 09/2003 H.I. Letter towards that Third
                      Temporary Postal Clerk (Fill-in) when H.K. defended Joan for her
                      violating the Law of Economy (Not showing her I.D. before the clerk
                      looked for her package), having too much pride of her position at
                      the ESC, and for her impatience.

                      HK: "Recently, a caller told of a dream that baffled this dream
                      expert. The expert, an authority, would not--could not--admit that
                      it mystified him too, that it was beyond his area of expertise. Most
                      of you would have immediately known this dream for what it was. It
                      was a vivid past-life experience."

                      *** How does HK know that it mystified the host of the show?! So HK,
                      the expert on all dreams, knows immediately that it was a vivid past-
                      life experience. Well, I think this is known among dream experts as
                      well! "Normal" human beings do believe in reincarnation, too!

                      ### Doesn't Klemp also claim to be an "expert" and an "authority"
                      and much much more! How arrogant! Klemp is too clueless to
                      be "mystified" of anything he's a know-it-all in his (and Eckists')
                      own delusional mind(s)!

                      HK: "This dream had recurred many times over the last Twenty Years
                      and was notable in that it always replayed battle scenes of the
                      American Civil War of the 1860s. And the dreamer always floated
                      above them. He could describe the uniforms, the cannons, the horses
                      and their riders, the weather, the soldiers' guns, the officers'
                      swords, and the like. He saw the wounded and the dead. And he could
                      even smell the smoke of cannon fire." [My caps]

                      *** Well, there it is again - HK's favorite topic - wars! It always
                      comes down to that it seems to me! He seems to love it! :-))

                      ### Yes, and HK never takes a position or to comment how futile it
                      all is, or why can't we all just get along, or the "whys" of why we
                      can't! This would be a good time to go more indepth and present the
                      higher truths that Soul is seeking. Klemp is message is boring and
                      redundant and never benefits the advanced Soul. And, aren't Eckists
                      supposed to be "advanced" Souls? Where's the Spiritual Meat?!

                      HK: "Evidently, dreams of past lives are not in the expert's
                      repertoire of explanations. Yet he let on that the matter was very
                      clear to him. By some leap of logic I didn't follow, he tied the
                      dream to the caller's childhood on his grandfather's farm. Forget
                      about the caller's you-are-there descriptions of another time and
                      place. To the expert it was all just a subconscious expression of
                      his feelings."

                      *** I can imagine that you couldn't follow this "leap of logic", HK!
                      And subconscious isn't allowed in eckankar! So just forget it, it's
                      a big no-no! That's why so many eckists are controlled by their
                      subconscious because HK always appeals to that, seemingly without
                      knowing it! LOL!

                      ### I agree Ingrid, why can't the LEM/Mahanta follow the "leap in
                      logic?" Maybe Klemp is in denial of some childhood events that
                      occurred back on his parent's farm that he refuses to face! Klemp
                      does seem to hang onto anger and dwells in and recreates past events
                      to suit his scamming agenda and false image.


                      HK: "Other questions were brushed aside with wordy tut-tuts. This
                      exchange must have left the dreamer as puzzled as ever, driving him
                      on to seek more satisfying answers from some other source."

                      *** Well, one must be aware that seeking advice in a radio show
                      isn't the best way to get answers to one's questions! I would go to
                      see some kind of counselor, specialized on dreams perhaps!

                      ### Klemp needs to look into a mirror more often. HK is an expert at
                      saying nothing while putting down others. Have Eckists ever read
                      his "loser" comments. Do Klemp's words depict a "Loving" master or
                      another Jerry Falwell?

                      HK: "The greatest favor we can do for ourselves is to say we don't
                      know when we don't know."

                      *** So HK, you don't know a lot - did you ever say so?!

                      ### Well HK did say that he couldn't follow the psychiatrist's "Leap
                      of Logic," however, HK was either Not being honest (unless is is
                      that stupid), or he was being sarcastic (negative).

                      HK: "Vast are the worlds of ECK. The experiences we can have within
                      them are more than there are stars in the heavens. Odds are strong--
                      overwhelming--that you will often run into things you could never
                      have imagined."

                      *** Yes HK that happens! What counts is our response to those
                      unimagined things! Well, Joan couldn't adapt too well to this
                      temporary postal clerk, could she! LOL!

                      ### Yep, that poor postal clerk! What negativity he had to fend off!
                      It's a good thing that 9th Initiate Joan and 14th Initiate Harry
                      aren't as powerful as they delude themselves to be! Of course, I'm
                      just kidding about that. JK and HK know that it's all a scam. The
                      Eckists are the only ones that are deluded!

                      HK: "This physical life has plenty of surprises too. IF your
                      spiritual unfoldment is on track, you will many times find yourself
                      saying about an experience or condition, 'I just don't know.'"

                      *** "Normal" humble people say that very often, too! It's because
                      life is wonderful and really full of surprises which makes life here
                      so great, at least for me! :-)

                      ### It's true that sometimes we can't see what is happening or the
                      reasons for it because we either don't look hard enough (aren't
                      interested), we are being spared the pain of knowing the outcome
                      before events play out, because we sometimes just need to learn by
                      repetition, and we see and experience things according to what we
                      need (for spiritual growth) and can handle.

                      HK: "BUT there are also many things you will know. And it's because
                      the Mahanta will show you." [My caps]

                      *** No, thanks - no need of a mahanta! :-)

                      ### Notice that Klemp is still using BUT and IF in his articles to
                      Eckists when he stated in the 12/2005 H.I. Letter Not to or avoid
                      using these words with other Eckists. Eckists shouldn't trust that
                      Klemp is truthful about anything he says!

                      [Second dream comments]

                      HK: "For example, what do you think the dream authority would have
                      made of this dream reported by someone we will call Belle? In the
                      dream state she was visiting friends, sitting in a large,
                      overstuffed chair. They had a huge pet lizard colored like a Gila
                      monster, a large, poisonous reptile found in Arizona, where she was
                      born and briefly lived later."

                      ### What makes Klemp an authority? He was initiated by a Thief who
                      was also a Black Magician (Gross) who was in turn initiated by the
                      Eck Board of Trustees and Officers on Gail's Twitchell's behalf.
                      And, the whole Eckankar scam was created by a Liar - Paul Twitchell.
                      And, Rebazar was created by Twit so it isn't R.T. who "Fills-in" as
                      needed either! This is just more myth. Ask Doug Marman!

                      HK: "However, Belle found this pet lizard loving and sweet. She was
                      not afraid of it. It crawled over her shoulder, down her arm, and
                      into her lap. Then it crept up her front and licked her face. The
                      alarm clock rang. Since it was an odd dream, she made a note
                      of it in her dream journal."

                      ### Perhaps this has more to do with Belle overcoming fear!

                      HK: "What do you think the dream expert's analysis would have
                      sounded like?"

                      ### I guess we're about to hear what the other "expert" (HK) is
                      about to say. However, you know what they say about opinions don't
                      you? They are like ass holes - everyone has one!

                      HK: "Well, he never would get a chance to air it, because at
                      breakfast that very morning, the Mahanta, the Inner Master, gave
                      Belle its meaning. And it rang so true."

                      ### I'm curious as to why HK listens to this Radio Show before he
                      goes to sleep. Why does the so-called LEM/Mahanta do this? Is this
                      the only way he is able to dream? Sad state of affairs for Eckists!

                      HK: "She was at the table eating breakfast, reading the latest issue
                      of Arizona Highways. Her attention was captured by a photo of a Gila
                      monster. Alongside it was an article on how medical scientists had
                      discovered that its saliva contained a substance to help balance
                      insulin levels in type 2 diabetes. There is also a new medication
                      on the market made of a synthesized version of this substance."

                      ### I'll bet that this magazine cover was seen by her prior to her
                      dream and that her unconscious mind dreamed about it. Maybe it did
                      have to do with her sugar intake or Not! Like I previously stated,
                      maybe the dream had more to do with her facing hers fears. Or, Klemp
                      is just flexing his knowledge and Who's Who intellect! LOL!

                      HK: "This was a health warning from the Master. Belle is not a
                      diabetic, BUT for a full week, she had been craving sweet things.
                      The warning said, 'You're taking in too much sugar." So she said
                      good-bye to the ice cream and cookies." [My caps]

                      *** Well I'm sure she would have thought about this without the
                      mahanta as well because her own Higher Self, which HK tries to
                      invade and take over, would have guided her there! And much better
                      than HK, the mahanta, the intruder, ever could!

                      ### Very true! Klemp is very good at putting words and opinions in
                      the mouth of others. This person (Soul) will figure it out without
                      being misdirected by a pseudo expert and master.

                      HK: "Here, then, you've met two very differnt dreamers, with two
                      very different dream advisers. The Mahanta's advice is worlds beyond
                      that of this other self-described expert. So very, very far beyond
                      his.

                      *** The master of the universe is the greatest expert of course! And
                      why can't he speak through the radio show host for example? There's
                      something called golden tongued wisdom in eckankar, and the eck
                      should be able to speak through anyone, not only HK!

                      ### Klemp makes it sound like he is the only "expert" who knows
                      anything about past lives. LOL! Many thousands of people outside of
                      Eckankar know much more about this topic than Klemp claims to know
                      or will ever know! And, Klemp's very nasty, once again, when he
                      attempts to belittle this psychiatrist by calling him a "self-
                      described expert!" What does Klemp think he is? LOL! Again, I really
                      believe that Klemp is still holding onto anger from his
                      incarceration in a Mental Institution. IMO- HK is transferring this
                      unresolved anger to all psychiatrists and other mental health
                      practitioners.

                      HK: "Look back sometime and see how far you've come in ECK. And it's
                      all because of your love for the Master."

                      *** Yeah look back on how much money you have already spent to this
                      silly organization to have the protection of the so-called master!
                      This protection isn't worth a dime! Just rely on you own inner and
                      Higher Self who doesn't need your money to make a good living out of
                      it, on your expense!

                      ### True, Ingrid, money and time was wasted on a scam that created
                      more and more distortions of the real Truth we were seeking. The
                      harm in Eckankar is that the seeker must adopt delusion or become
                      more delusional in order to fit-in and have Eckie "experiences."
                      Eckankar encourages dependency and attachment to a LEM/Mahanta and
                      increases one's vanity via higher initiations. Eckists, does this
                      sound like it could be another Kal trap like other religions - nah!
                      That's just your imagination or is it?

                      Prometheus
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